[REDACTED] Day 2 | NEAR is the Blockchain for AI

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

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   want My Hope Is that the people in this audience and audiences like find ways that we can tear down these barriers we have a shared fraternity A diversity that reaches Beyond language Beyond culture Beyond borders with each other no matter where we are no matter what we think no matter where we started no matter what we have reclaiming your sovereignty of controlling your assets controlling your data it's more than just a conference it's an IRL movement it's exciting to

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    see this movement continued growing advancing this mission there are things that are appealing to everybody and that doesn't mean we hate the popular but it does mean we respect the difference we embrace it and we nurture it so that we can have new things that we can have better things without losing our appreciation for the things that we here please welcome from near Foundation doin

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    bossi hello good morning GM G welcome to day two of redacted the conference the event the IRL movement my name is Davin Bass I'm legal counsel at the near Foundation but more importantly I am your MC um for this morning session now I'll level with you guys I'm a lawyer my game is pushing paper um I'm not used to being up on stage like this um so naturally I ask some of my friends for a little bit of advice and they gave me three key pieces

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    of sage advice uh number one don't worry nobody cares about the MC that's fine with me um number two don't fuck it up uh no pressure and number free be yourself Davin um which is possibly the worst piece of advice I have ever heard but anyway I'm genuinely very excited to be here thank you all for being here it's genuinely inspiring to see so many of you working so hard together to help people reclaim their sovereignty um but before we get started I just wanted to give a quick shout out to some of our

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    sponsors um and thank you thank them for their support um agoric for sponsoring the amazing registration party on the first day um The Sweat found for keeping us nice and hydrated and Modern Line who are kindly hosting the closing party tonight it's going to be epic it's going to be lit do not miss it right so we had some pretty crazy announcements yesterday I mean we saw a new meme coin

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    being launched live um via a chat bot which was absolutely crazy and we also saw um cross-chain swaps being executed seamlessly um using chain signatures but don't you guys worry we have a phenomenal lineup um ready for you guys today we're going to be talking about defi we're going to be talking about chain abstraction intents governance it's going to be absolutely epic and so without further delay let's get started

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    I'm going to hand you over to my very good friend harit toari um who is the head of ecosystem strategy at the near Foundation um and is going to talk about the future of defi in the near ecosystem and introduce a very exciting project building with the near Tech stack so please give it up for harit GM how's everyone doing day two I hope you had a good night's sleep enjoyed day one I'm very honored to be here um and

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    talk about the future of D on the year so day one was AI today it's all about D um we'll hear from a bunch of Stellar speakers it's an actionpack agenda I'll keep it quick um so the title of our uh title of my talk here is the future of D um but let's first talk about the present State uh of Def on near so the biggest critique we've had you know we we heard for a long time was that there was nothing exciting to do in the near ecosystem in terms of defi you know we were lagging behind other ecosystems uh

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    Builders could not do anything unique uh we had like basic money Legos the slides here um we had nothing special frankly so what we did was we took some time went back to the drawing board we as in we collectively as an ecosystem and figured out what kind of Primitives we need to have uh What teams do we need to onboard um what sort of infra as well as consumer applications we need to have for all verticals um and so far we've not only made our money Legos more

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    robust but we've onboarded a ton of new teams institutions alike and we've identified uh key weaknesses vulnerabilities that were uh uh that that we needed to fix and um you know here here we are at with uh a more robust defi landscape on near so we're laying the foundations of a thriving onchain economy on near the past 12 months were very exciting I let some numbers uh speak for themselves so um we had less than $100 million in tvl which wasn't great by any measure uh we are

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    almost 5x now more than 5x um and then we had less than $35 million in natively issued stable coin now we have not only native usdt but native usdc as well as fra on near and we have 20x uh stable coin count on near can we have it for the near foundation and the ecosystem awesome thank you so much so our job's not done uh 700 million in stable coin uh we want to continue to uh grow these numbers uh not only for builders in the near ecosystem but unlock net new flows of value for all all chains um and

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    everyone in D5 now we've heard a lot about you know the future of D and and what we did in the past year but let me start with a quick question how many of you here own e show of hands great as expected how many of you do defi with your eath awesome now let's let's go to the more fun part how many of you own Doge here rookie numbers Trump trump just won we need more hands okay cool how many of you would be interested in doing def5 with your

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    Doge great so that's the future we envision uh that will be unlocked with chain signatures where without wrapping assets without bridging assets users will be natively able to do defy with even non-smart contract assets so before proceeding um I'll play a quick video of what we've been working on with new teams in the near ecosystem these are teams which are not copy pasta of you

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    know just a compound Fork on near or an a fork on near these are net New Primitives built by solid Rockstar teams uh on near so let me play this quick it's the new chain of sttion cohort on near nine new teams building the future of cross chain D5 so we had a very sort of uninspiring defi landscape one year ago now we have not only these eight new teams but deep

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    liquidity on the books users can plug into new use cases so to just give an example we have a variety of use cases such as native Bitcoin reaking liquid staking as well as cross chain derivatives cross chain Perpetual debt issuance cross chain lending cross chain swap cross chain margin like you you name it and the ecosystem now has it uh imagine the future uh of D across uh the near ecosystem when once these teams

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    launch on the main net so the cohort has already uh launched officially as of today and these teams will be going through the cohort throughout winter and going into 2025 all of these teams will be on the main net uh you can expect a lot of cool stuff you can play with so this is what the future of defi on near will look like uh in 3 to six months when all these teams launch so as you can see it's a stark contrast to the

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    first slide where we not only have more stable coins more uh money Legos but we have unique verticals Possible only on near powered by near intents and the liquidity layer that was unveiled yesterday and we have a bunch of these teams plugging into near intents the chain action cheack and unlocking novel use cases net new flows of value for crypto so we have one special announcement as well um one major critique we've heard was well onboarding into the near ecosystem you know it it

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    sucks you know we have no clear um differentiator onboarding is hard so for D5 Builders to have easy access to the near ecosystem Aurora Labs which is a major contributor to the near ecosystem they spent 8 months building something that no other layer one has we are as of today the only layer one outside of ethereum to have native ethereum wallets can we have it for our Labs so so starting right now users can log into keyd Apps on near

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    uh ref burrow you name it with all the wallets that are compatible with wallet connect uh you can log in with your metamask account uh it will be no different than your ethereum experience uh it nears just a chain like ethereum for you um and yeah have fun without even downloading a near wallet so let's do a quick recap of near intense um Alex discussed what the near intense Vision

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    was what can be unveiled and then Elia uh gave a definition give a high level explanation of uh you know how near intense uh will will be uh fundamental pillar in in building the future of AI as well so what are near intents uh for for those who uh are interested is it's a new multi-chain transaction framework for crypto wherein near intents will not only on board uh will not only enable a new way to transact across all chains seamlessly but also power of chain

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    actions through a near smart contract uh the uh near intense team has been building a set of apis for uh Builders to integrate a variety of front ends um and then use cases such as seamless multi-chain swaps of native assets across chains smart contract and non-smart contract alike uh and then the cool part here is the introduction of a concept called account fi where users will be able to trade their entire near

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    accounts with not only assets but things like reputation soulbound token um and everything that can be associated with that asset uh across any Chain by transferring uh the public Keys swapping uh on that and then we have a solare network now the cool part about the solare network for near near intense is it you know it won't just be humans but AI agents as well which will be Sol

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    which can be solvers um executing intents uh onchain offchain Financial non-financial for users uh at at the speed of light um building the f future of D now quick uh note of gratitude um it's been an honor uh opening the day here and I want to acknowledge all the hard work that's gone into um building uh the cool D5 Primitives we have today is the culmination of what we' what we were collectively working on for the past 12 months um now a glimpse into the

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    future if we when we are able to successfully deliver uh what we are promising today Nia will be home to trillions of AI a agents powered by billions of dollars of assets on chain enabled by millions of intents uh and built by thousands of D and AI Builders uh and having like and we'll have hopefully hundreds of unicorns on chain so I invite people uh to take a quick picture of this QR code um on the

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    screen where um we have some stalls um for Merch and food outside um you can earn s so from this QR code and redeem it on the Stalls it's also onchain by the way there's a team called keom uh that's building it so it's chain extraction um on the go we'll wait for everyone to scan 10 more seconds perfect now I'd like to introduce two very special guests two people that I greatly

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    admire um these fine gentlemen are here from the infinex team um Kane who's the founder of who's a co-founder of synthetics he needs no introduction to anyone who's been in crypto um and then his co-founder and CTO Jed who's a react Legend um I'll hand over the mic to them and invite them to speak about infinex hey everyone thank you very much uh for having us we're very excited to to be here um I am here to tell you that

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    however excited you are about chain signatures you are not bullish enough um what we are going to be implementing um inside infinex with chain signatures is going to absolutely change crypto um we we have an issue um at the moment and we've had an issue for a long time uh we are we're building this amazing technology we built amazing technology starting from Bitcoin and yet very

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    rapidly from the moment Bitcoin was launched we've been taken over by databases and this started like super early on um the the first database that uh was able to kind of take over Bitcoin and and control a lot of the onchain transactions was actually not even built as an exchange it was built to trade Magic the Gathering cards that's how dark it is it's pretty Grim um we we've had this uh this play out throughout the history of crypto from Mount Gau all the

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    way through to coinbase binance and then eventually uh FTX where um you know no matter how good our technology got um from a decentralization standpoint um databases were always ahead of us centralized platforms were always ahead of us they've been better um you know to the point where like defi summer uh we had Unis swap Unis swap is amazing and we were all doing Victory laps because Unis swap on one day was able to compete

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    with the spot volume of coinbase one day right um and this is you know just really problematic as an industry we need to be able to build platforms that use the technology to do the the things that we want to do um and if all of the transaction volume that's happening inside crypto is happening in people's databases then something's gone wrong right um and so we need to fix this but

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    we haven't been able to fix it for a number of reasons so I built synthetics um I was building in defi um early on and what I learned is that we needed to build for enthusiasts we didn't have end users so we had to build things almost from an ideological standpoint right if what you were building was not ideologically pure uh it would get a little bit of fud um and if you want to uh validate that go and check out some of the Reddit threads about uh the early Haven days um so we

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    we have this problem where um you know we were building things for a group of people that kind of had different uh incentives to what the average user has right they actually wanted things to be hard in some ways um they wanted things to be weird they wanted to have to do these deep dives into the technology um and they they wanted it to be uh both censorship resistant and decentralized

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    and the challenge when you need to satisfy both of those two things is that it's very hard to build good EU right um and we haven't been able to until I mean it's basically in the last 3 months right that we've had the technology to able to do this with chain signatures we can actually compete with these centralized exchanges finally right there's a whole bunch of other things that that have come about um but it's really critical that we um we have chain

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    signatures because the problem that we had building defi is that we tried to get people to do things the way that we wanted them to do it um so if someone would turn up to Defi and say Hey you know I'm really excited about what you guys are building um how do I use my xrp we would say get out of here right like we don't want xrp we don't want we don't want your bad token um and you know cardono Litecoin Bitcoin cash all of these things right any of the assets that you can think of um we we couldn't

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    support them but we also didn't want to support them um and that's that's really not going to work when you look at the top 20 assets by market cap most of them are these assets that are not smart contract chains um and they have large market caps because they have large adoption and if we exclude these users we're not going to be able ble to bring on the average user that's on binance or buybid or coinbase um and so we we've

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    had to basically figure out a way to support all these different assets and the way that we've been able to to do this now is through chain signatures we have the ability to use chain signatures to um enable uh people to deposit Litecoin um but we have to do it in a way that is um both uh non-custodial um and has good ux um and so this is where um my friend Jed comes in um Jed and I have known each other for a long time um he's been building in web 2 um and he's got some thoughts about the

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    whole web 2 web 3 uh dichotomy as well um which I'm sure you can uh talk to him about afterwards but um I I realized when we were building infinex that we we were off like we're getting something wrong the way that we were approaching it was not quite working um and I was like we actually need need to bring some web people in so that we can figure out how to actually build something that

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    will have good ux and the way that we sort of landed on this was that we needed to build an application which sounds wild um but I'll hand over to Jed and this is how we actually build an application in crypto so let me introduce infinex quickly like it's an app infinex is on chain but infinex is also I think one of the better apps you would find on the internet anywhere um we've done that not just by building an app in the way that it normally happens in crypto we've got a platform behind it we've got a vertically integrated stack

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    that goes all the way from the UI that you interact with the signing experience the database the distributed compute platform underneath that and eventually um the blockchain that all of the operations actually end up happening on and so when Kane sort of pitched me on infinex a year ago um he was saying we've got the technology I think to find finally solve this problem but what we need to do is point it at ux instead of

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    just building the functionality that we think people want to come on chain because we've tried that we've got at all and it hasn't really worked we just don't have the users so we realized that we had to actually combine both of these strategies and there's a lot of Prior in Kane's head about what being onchain means we spent quite a bit of time sort of working this out and Distilling it down to really the core principles that we've built infinex on top of and there

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    are three of them there is we want use us es to be self custodial we need to be non-custodial for this to work otherwise we haven't moved the needle far enough with self- custody comes the problems of funds recovery what happens when someone loses access or control to their private Keys how do we solve that so that was number two and number three is everything has to be onchain right we we have onchain transparency under everything you do and I think that's the biggest one that sets infinex apart from

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    what the other applications most people are using to interact with crypto like binance or or all of the other ones are are right something like f FTX doesn't happen if you have onchain transparency so we tried to combine the best of these two uh approaches together but it leads to more problems because the next thing you need to do if you're focusing on ux is solve uh how do we do genuine a cross chain ux right and that introduces a hard

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    problem which is the multiple sources of Truth problem um we spent quite a bit of time this year working around that as well and uh some of the stuff that we've shipped already like the patron sale is really cool cross-chain user experience you can Farm access the sale on base using some assets that you deposit on arbitrum you can then use some soul to buy an nft on ethereum and you don't actually see the chains that you're

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    using really mentioned anywhere in this experience right and as we're working through this we realize this is actually the secret to what the centralized exchanges have done to make it easy as well they don't mention chains they just talk about tokens they talk about what you want to do not how you need to do it and definitely not where you need to go in order to do it right so this kind of really I think is just the tip of the iceberg of what people are going to want to be able to do on chain without

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    knowing how and this has brought us to cross chain signatures because even in that example we've only solved a part of the problem right I'm talking about all the dii tokens and as Kane mentioned we actually need to solve for more than that we need Bitcoin and so what we've said is that once you can custody Bitcoin on infinex it will be real Bitcoin and as cross change signatures that will allow us to do that um if we

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    have a look at what custody means like I said it's only half the story you need recovery right we can't like we can translate a pass key which is a big part of our ux into an onchain signature but what happens if someone loses it we need a smart chain underneath the hood that we can actually program with a contct or a program to sort of deal with what happens next and so near chain signatures actually lets us build the

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    smart contracts and the logic that we need to whilst also controlling these assets um on chains that don't have native support for the functionality that we need so yeah this is a huge unlock and we see chain signatures as the way to get to our vision of what people want to do on chain in a way where they don't really realize it um so where do we go from here so we have the technology now to beat binance like if you think about what the last 15 years has been it's been this era of

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    crypto happens inside someone's database and we've done Defi and we've kind of made some inroads but we haven't really been able to crack it we haven't been able to beat binance beat coinbase we can't even beat kucoin honestly which is uh you know we we can do better than this right so um what chain signatures uh allows us to do is to build an experience that is fully on chain and

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    support any asset every asset not just a selection of assets that we want to support not just SPL tokens not just erc20 is but all of the assets um and this is going to usher in a new era like we will we will be finally doing all of our crypto transactions on chain we won't be doing them in someone's database we won't be giving up custody we'll be doing it the right way um and it's it's pretty amazing when you think about um the fact that like it's taken

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    us this long to get there but once we do it's a huge unlock because at the moment if you are in binance you have uh access to some functionality right you can do staking um you can do margin trading you can do perss uh but there's a whole bunch of applications that you can't access unless you go on chain and right now the barriers to entry to getting onchain are just too high right um and

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    so the question that we've been asking is um how do we improve the onboarding experience what can we do um to get more people on chain and one of the things that I think many people in this room would uh agree with is that it used to be that we would onboard people right on- ramping and onboarding are actually different things right like Fiat onramps are one thing how do you get how do you

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    get Fiat into crypto but the on boarding of someone into crypto how do you get someone access to crypto is challenging right and it used to be that we would go around and we would on board people one by one manually right we would go and set someone up with a Bitcoin wallet or set someone up with an ether wallet um and we got to a point where we stopped doing it because if you do that long enough eventually you get a phone call three years later where they

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    say those words I wasn't really supposed to write them down right and you're like you people will get wrecked right um and so what we've uh what we've figured out is that there is a way for us to onboard people um using uh using a platform that is a rich application where you can essentially give someone a link they can follow that link you can have already sent crypto to them so that when they open the link and they set up an account they have AOS key that can sign messages for them can sign transactions and they

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    now have crypto in their account and you've onboarded them without having to go through kyc feat on ramping Etc um and now they can start to actually do things inside crypto um they can do onchain transactions the problem is that infinex as it stands is still a wall Garden it's a little bit unsatisfying right like we've replaced binance with another kind of uh you know wrapped thing right so how do we break out of that how do we allow people to uh access

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    the long tail of exciting stuff that's on chain um the way that we do that is we let them take their infinex account and sign into to adap and when you let them sign into to adapt what you can do is take all of the chain abstraction that we built inside of infinex and actually extend it to the rest of the longtail of crypto applications which is amazing like as an unlock for um dii and

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    for onchain uh platforms it's going to make that barrier that right now is too high for the average user to get off of binance disappear and then people can just go and use every application it doesn't matter what it is doesn't matter if it's a prediction Market or if it's lending or if it's some social application or a game they can get access to anything so one of the things we've spent a lot of time talking about

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    is actually the education problem that exists around crypto right um the things that you need to learn in order to use it and our goal is to remove the need for that education if you sign up for binance it's just like signing up for online banking and the more familiar we can make the patterns involved in crypto while still being genuinely non-custodial on chain behind the scenes I think the better off we're all going

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    to be so we've got some plans in that area but we're also out of time so we'll leave it there but thank you for listening and enjoy the rest of the conference we're gonna we're going to bring you another microphone we can't hear you testing oh I F loud enough um so I would describe myself as a bit of a meme coin connoisseur um so I'm very excited about this next session we're talking about memes agents and

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    narratives getting and holding um mind share in the 20 25 like token Market um so we will have zachi Manan um a cosmos and chain abstraction Pioneer um who will be leading this session so please give a very warm welcome to zachi all right um I'm zucky uh I let's see I've been in blockchains for 10 years I used to do only Tech stuff so I did like consensus algorithms and cryptography now and then I like did the

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    go to market for Cosmos um and uh now I guess I'm like I'm like a kind of unusual person like sometimes I do a cryptography sometimes I make a meme sometimes I launch an nftd collection um I've been helping the near Foundation think about how to take these like components the like relatively mature near blockchain Tech uh the emerging near AI Tech um and the uh like chain abstraction Tech and turn this into like

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    some sort of coherent hole um I'm not really laying out a vision for this this is more like your like General reminder of uh a regular reminder of what blockchains actually are um what does it take to win uh in in this world um what are the interesting experiments so that's what this talk is about um so the first and foremost thing is blockchains are social coordination Technologies um what does it mean to be a social coordination technology uh

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    social coordination Technologies are uh basically how humans come to agreement figure out you know how to operate relative to each other it's primarily what blockchains are are um and when you have uh and so we tend to get lost in all the mumbo jumbo about tps's and l1s and l2s um and it sort of tends to distract um from why we build blockchains uh which was to find a new way so like we've had like historical

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    ways of coordinating socially uh companies Corporation companies tribes nation states Etc uh blockchains are the First new one in a long time um that's why this is an interesting space um it's trying to build social coordination through distributed uh uh databases and through uh uh you know cryptography as a as a trust mechanism so like but like ultimately what we need to make anyone use this is come up with shared Stories the optimal story is a story

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    that are like self- sourcing through selft talk this is what people say when they're like hey this blockchain is a cult um because I'm sure anyone who has been in the space uh says like such and such cult you know there's like the cardano cult is like kind of like the the like classic example um Cults are work best so like the optimal way is to like move a story from something that is sort of disseminated in a top- down mechanism so

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    like you know you have a Twitter account you have a set of of people at like a foundation you have a Founder who's telling story um to the sort of wider Universe of people who have buyin and skin in the game in the story are actually propagating the story extending the story and like coordinating their actions through their own internal mental representation of the story so I think that's like when people like sort of positively look at

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    something like salana um and the journey that salana has been through for the the last two years it sort of has seemed to have gone through this transition from a system where people were primarily interacting with it on the basis of hey what are like you know there's like the salana foundation there super team who are like pushing out a message to now everyone is in that ecosystem is kind of

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    cording the story within themselves so monies are the most powerful story that humans have ever created um and it is a story that is like constantly reinforced through selft talk you know every time we think about you know am I getting paid enough how much money am I going to make trading a token into like into and out of a stable coin I'm reinforcing this concept of money um so when we try to build secure distributed systems um so like

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    blockchains protocols all these things they're incredibly timec consuming um and it's like really hard to iterate quickly um because you don't like the cost of iterating quickly is like eating everyone's money to either North Korea or the void um uh so so this is more like building a bridge or an airplane than building a website um narratives are the fast iteration side of this business um so they support rapid experimentation iteration and Novelty um which are I

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    think really uh you know so like some narratives take a long time so like mod like the modular narrative um I think ecam gave a talk at like the uh GTM con uh yesterday where was like it took us a year uh I helped work with him I remember when uh eam like first came up with the word modular he was like we this is going to be our narrative I was like this is smart uh it took us a year to like bring to like sort of get Buy in on crypto Twitter um into like the modular narrative um but it took 5 years

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    to build Celestia so like we definitely built the narrative faster than we built Celestia um and in general The Narrative side is like the way faster things so like narratives are like low risk in this sense like you can pick a narrative try it in the market probably find out in 6 months or a year whether or not it has any legs iterate on it um whereas when you're like building secure decentralized technology it's going to

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    take you years typically to build it so like these things have to happen um so your chain abstraction your next Generation defi your FHA your MPC your te your stable coin will not have any user ERS without these self-reinforcing stories um I think like one of the things I think that is a little bit surprising to people on the tech side is in the in previous Cycles um you kind of had these like kol's YouTube people I

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    remember this from 2021 you would we had this with Cosmos right like we had the like the the narratives and the stories that people that were onboarding users didn't really come from any specific place instead there were these people who kind of self-appointed themselves as K's sort of built these stories around your thing um I mean you've seen that still in the cycle with like what anom has done for salana um but I think in

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    general this like this pattern is not going to be the pattern going forward um K's are not going to create your uh stories around your tokens for you um and I think the next thing that we're going to see is like the commodification of narrative creation and I think AI is basically going to do this um so the idealized crypto founder for the last few years has been the 247 crypto

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    Twitter reply guy who's constantly advancing a narrative like anat and his Twitter account is like the perfect example of this I think we see this fully commoditized into like AI agents in 2025 um where like the idealized uh uh crypto founder is now like truth terminal um where you have an AI agent that is like constantly sort of interacting with Twitter uh constantly advancing a narrative you know this stuff sort of works today but I think we're going to start seeing this working in reality

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    um and so now we're going to start seeing a world in which like all of this Tech that we build is going to be armed with strong adaptable metics like there's the sort of meme go like the there's this sort of thing being pushed about like sort of the dynamic like adaptable meme coins um and like all of these AI meme coins I think this is like generally what what the future of marketing looks like um looks like in this

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    space and so for every uh for every uh uh piece of technology you must have the 80 IQ version of of the narrative in order for your thing to be able to take this is like sort of the left curve right curve midwit meme um but the time of accidentally stumbling into this is probably long past um so that's my talk um does anybody want to have uh ask any questions or chat about anything and then I can

85. 50:36

    give any questions yeah who is the most interesting person on crypto Twitter see I like I'm like a truth terminal Fanboy I think the most interesting person is like this art project that is like part Andy part llm um uh I think this like idea of like sort of like an of of like an Aug of an AI augmented thing like crypto founder is like the most interesting thing going on right now um I think in general the

86. 51:20

    efforts of crypto Founders to like Drive narratives that are the like old way that we have done this in the past seem to be running into like more and more problems I think like a lot of people have like struggled with this in this like last two-year cycle because it was like you know people blame the changes in the Twitter algorithm and they were like it's the Twitter algorithm that's preventing us from like achieving any

87. 51:44

    sort of like narrative cohesion um but yeah so like you've had all of these things like you know like we went through the era of like the Anon uh uh Twitter accounts like balloon lovers and base 16 Z's as those were the like interesting Twitter accounts now they seem lame um they'll like always online Crypt founder is sort of becoming commoditized so I think we're like ready for something new how

88. 52:15

    important toer to the audence I don't think of this is like the D genen audience I think this is the this is like this is like if you can't figure out out away like like because this stuff is social coordination technology there will always be this narrative element like you can't just be like look I have solved this problem for you use my tech um because there are no Moes in crypto like if you were just solving a problem and there is no

89. 52:44

    narrative around you um your model is just going to be commoditized by somebody who's like well I've like also solved this problem right like I think this is like like across is a good example of this like yes it's generic like interrupt technology and a direct generic interrupt like intense protocol but it's like Hart and Brian fighting on Twitter that like gives it some mimetic bandwidth and like maybe this will work but there's no other Moe and like what

90. 53:15

    other choice do they have um so those are that's kind of where I think this is going so like I don't know if you have a project go find someone to fight on with it on Twitter that might be like a good model um like you do have to like Define your enemies Define your enemy Define who you're going to ignore you have to create narrative tension um so like actually having a like a defined enemy

91. 53:39

    uh is I think like a is a good model you know being like the thing you're against so you know like Celestia did a great job of this you know they like created this like sort of artificial monolithic versus modular like you know we're like 3 years in and everyone has agreed that there just like all blockchains look the same in 5 years but like you know that created some narrative tension and and generated some

92. 54:10

    momentum yeah I I I do I do think blockchain near as a blockchain so there's like guess there's a bunch of specific things I will say about that and that's like a good way to end this which is the last two years the like chat GPT era of AI blockchain has been like the you either had a meme or you had a reality and if you tried to combine a reality and a meme they would annihilate each other so

93. 54:36

    like you know you have like fetch which is like a $30 billion Cosmos chain maybe it's more today um with like a doing AI agents where there are no AI agents um uh but like if you like added AI agents that thing would be worth actually much less than $30 billion um I think that like right now we're like on this like threshhold told of moving from like of like crypto plus AI being purely meme to actually being like some reality to it that can be self-reinforcing um I think these AI

94. 55:06

    agents like are showing the way and I think that can feed back into each other and like make the new blockchain for AI think actually work thank you very much right guys don't forget to scan that um to get yourself some really cool swag even if you don't want your tokens you know feel free to send them to me um wildor unicorn 39 please Gib tokens um that was a great talk by Zaki thank you so much um I feel like I'm always

95. 55:55

    operating on at IQ it's probably the best I can offer you guys um but anyway um next up we have a showcase um this time from our chain abstraction cohort I Absolut absolutely love these because you get to see what teams are actually building so I'm going to leave you in the safe hands of Jared Barnes a good friend and a legend of ours at the near Foundation he's a head of our um founder success team but first I think there's

96. 56:18

    going to be a video playing so I'm going to remove myself all right well good morning folks not every day you get a hype video before a panel discussion but very excited for this conversation today uh my name is Jared Barnes I'm head of founder success at the near foundation and have the opportunity to work with all of our Founders and Builders um who are deploying amazing products on near you heard earlier today from harit the infinex team and just now from Zaki about all the Innovation happening in

97. 57:19

    the D5 space on near um and now I'm excited to actually have a conversation with the folks who are building those Solutions um and actually doing the work of innovation so we have three amazing Founders uh here today I'm going to allow uh them to introduce themselves um and really dig in and of course it wouldn't be a panel if we didn't spend time on predictions for the future so if we have time we'll get into that as well uh but we can start here with Franco please feel free to introduce yourself

98. 57:45

    all right thank you for having me um so my name is Franco uh I'm the co-founder of OPN Lan uh I got my co-founder there as well FICO um I have a background on Electronics uh was also a Dropout and then started my uh entrepreneurial path um I built raps which is a software development company about 130 people now uh gotten uh quite successful and also built other projects uh more on the AI side uh we built um an AI system for interviewing people uh we built also

99. 58:18

    transcri me which is one of the fastest WhatsApp applications on latam it's gotting uh 3.5 million users um and other stuff as well uh during all this time um now we're building oping uh which is uh essentially kind of unifying um liquidity across chain it's a liquidity layer that put on top of chain signatures uh that hopefully will allow users to experience a seamless ux across any different chain and any different protocol

100. 58:47

     amazing uh Alan Hampton co-founder of Covenant um from a background perspective a mixed bag uh PhD n IAL intelligence then management consulting still recovering and have been doing a bit of AI uh and before Covenant started with a couple of friends a fully licensed US Bank uh my name is Royal fo uh I'm an engineer by background uh I'm building Templar which is a chain abstracted modular borrowing protocol that allows you to deposit assets on any chain uh as

101. 59:23

     collateral and borrow against them amazing um so I really want to dig in on each of your use cases but I also want to dig in a little bit to what led you to arriving to the Solutions in what you're building today and maybe Royal we can start with you first if you're comfortable can you give us the backstory on Royal fool as a name but also yeah uh it's related to uh Templar the Templar Bank was um the First International Bank and pioneered a number of financial Innovations The

102. 59:51

     Traveler check international finance uh the actual um State uh and a lot of other things um so that was the inspiration we took for the company and going with the Medieval theme uh the Royal fool is the King's Chester he's always free to speak his mind um which I enjoy doing um so that's that's kind of the background uh on the actual name there um and then the yeah the inspiration for uh what we're building uh comes from a problem that I myself faced as well as many other people that

103. 1:00:22

     hold crypto uh and that is namely you know with the assets that you hold you know if you want to do something uh IRL with those assets um unfortunately there's a bit of a a crypto acceptance problem right um so if you want to uh it's it's not just purely like an adoption problem it's it's a regulatory problem if you own uh Bitcoin eth near Etc uh you can't just go and buy a house with that right there's a bunch of regulatory headaches for that um tax

104. 1:00:54

     implications you know y see all all the all this stuff that you know they they really really try and block you uh so a good solution to that uh is that you borrow against your assets now this uh pre presents uh several benefits one is you retain the upside potential of the asset that you're holding as collateral uh and two there are no tax implications this is something that is widely

105. 1:01:19

     available to uh Bank banking private clients who have millions of dollars in assets they're able to just borrow against those assets uh via a line of credit now this is not something that's widely available to people and uh crypto borrowing protocols uh democratize access uh to those Services um but with each one of those uh Solutions you know they may work on a given chain like for

106. 1:01:43

     example a um on eth but that requires wrapping and bridging of different assets to eth but we live in a multi-chain world um so being able to take any assets you have on any chain and borrow against them uh it's a huge unlock absolutely and definitely want to keep building on that a little bit further and maybe Allan to you building somewhat of a similar solution in a different context really tacking

107. 1:02:07

     tradable Perpetual debt um and as I Was preparing for this I had to really Google tradable Perpetual debt I'm like what hold on let's back up so maybe for someone who isn't deeply into defi first can you explain tradable Perpetual debt and then also share a little bit more about again how you arrived uh at your solution well you had a very interesting Insight when we were out there and you were like oh that sounds like bonds and

108. 1:02:30

     I was like well not really but yes so tradeable basically what we're building is uh the ability to uh issue debt against any asset same thing uh but if you think about what's happening on chain right now and and and the biggest use case is is all about swapping uh existing tokens and basically getting margin loans against that it's like basically can you actually lever up your your positions and and all of these positions are usually very fungible

109. 1:02:56

     um then the question becomes how do you move on to credit how do you actually then underwrite or or take loans against things that are not as liquid that are not uh as fungible and there's when you start going sort of into into credit uh and solutions that are there right now and in the real world is like peer-to-peer like I give you a loan I get whatever I have bar of gold and I give it for you for something uh you'll

110. 1:03:20

     give it back to me um but that doesn't scale and and here's where there's a bit of an inspiration from from The Real World um I always believe there's like certain Solutions in the real world that that solve problems in this particular case it's liquidity and lending has a liquidity problem on chain uh and the solution is really like let let's not get all these uh assets to be lent out it's really like can we mint debt and then have that be a

111. 1:03:45

     fungible uh asset itself right and if you look at the world from a credit perspective it's really there's about 200 trillion in in in debt 100 trillion of that is the bond market basically mostly treasuries us governments uh issuing debt and the next and another 100 trillion is is really Bank deposits but that bank deposit is basically minting money a very senior Tran of debt uh against loans very nonf funable loans so um we're pretty much building that the ability to like issue debt that's

112. 1:04:17

     tradable um key difference that's only enabled uh on chain and this is a bit of unlock is that you don't have maturities anymore like if you think in the real world everything has a maturity and then you have to roll over and whatnot we ours are Perpetual it's it's an instrument that goes on forever uh but the price it trades at uh indicates what is the risk of that asset and hence the

113. 1:04:42

     interest rate that that asset is acre uh so it's a very big alock in terms of like how to provide liquidity to like um not as liquid assets basically yeah yeah um and folks you can see the theme of big unlocks in the context of defi here and maybe Franco to go to you as well I mean you're taking also you know a larger scale approach by looking at eliminating bridging in in in oracles

114. 1:05:05

     entirely can you tell us a little bit more about how that Insight just came to you in the Omni Lane team and how that's informed your approach yeah um so as I mentioned we have a you know background of blockchain development company I see a lot of clients uh coming up to develop new blockchains uh you see uni chain launching as well so kind of kind of looks like the future is going to be blockchains for you know four

115. 1:05:29

     applications uh with specified use cases um so in order to build onto that future um you need a truly scalable solution that doesn't rely on infrastructure and a lot of infrastructure being deployed on each chain so that means uh if you if you have a cross chain swap uh and you need um a bridge for that to work or you need an oracle for that to work that's a lot of infrastructure that moves really

116. 1:05:54

     slow um so uh there's a lot of unattended markets right now because they don't have such infrastructure so that's one issue and the other issue is that nowadays a lot of Crossing swaps or Bridges they use uh amm models so that means that a lot of the money is used as sandbags to provide price uh resistance uh for swapping um so what we came up with is a solution that's truly scalable because has uh almost 100% Capital efficiency meaning that if I have 100

117. 1:06:30

     USC it's not like each USC is going to is going to be more expensive uh the more you trade I can you know uh trade that amount at spot price and then uh we can truly Deploy on any chain because we don't rely on oracles and we don't we don't need all those parties uh for our protocol to work um the key for that uh is you know our secret source is communitive State consensus uh which is an algorithm that allows essentially the two parties involved on a trade uh to share all the information

118. 1:07:02

     required and consent uh and kind of Reach This consensus about the cumulative deposits of the cter party for the trade um so yeah that has been our approach and that has been our vision love it and I think what's so powerful is how each one of these solutions kind of interact and compound on top of each other and maybe Royal we can go back to you um you gave us again High context on what informed the origin of Templar can you tell us a little bit more about how you've brought this solution to life particularly a little

119. 1:07:32

     bit more about your goto Market I know you're looking at targeting um chains that don't necessarily have native uh defi Solutions yeah can you expand on that a little bit more for folks uh just on your go to market strategy and how you're bringing this to life yeah our go to market strategy is focusing on uh assets that don't have native defi right so Bitcoin Doge even Ripple uh Litecoin

120. 1:07:56

     cardano like uh these are all assets that people are holding like in trillions across exchanges and wallets um and their options are they trust a centralized custodian uh which you know happens with in which Celsius happens right um uh so that's not desirable uh you can alternatively wrap and Bridge those assets which not only is a you know High friction or user experience uh but it's it's just it it it it it it just doesn't you know it adds extra risk layers as well um so the go to market is

121. 1:08:36

     really focusing on those assets um that are unmet they have untapped demand uh and then we can also address the long tail of assets as well um via our modular design they can just permissionless deploy vaults uh for those assets as well um so it's really you know going after an untapped Market to start uh and then expanding from there given the fact that uh it is Omni chain uh with via chain signatures and Alan similar question for

122. 1:09:08

     you but I also have to imagine just given the nature of what you're building price Discovery for that debt matters so much can you also expand a little bit more on how you've brought this solution to life via goto Market but tell us a little bit more about price Discovery and how you've just navigated probably the inherent opportunity and with that as as well I'll I'll I'll give two answers to that question in many ways because the

123. 1:09:32

     product that's live now uh uses sort of uh existing fungible tokens uh in many ways like things that could be uh could be used as collateral for for margin loans uh and and we basically testing and having a use case for tradable debt right um but I see the the next step and that's the that's the the path and especially related to counter abstraction is I see a future where there's going to be multiple chains where real world assets are being

124. 1:10:03

     tokenized uh and there's there's two aspects there one is price discovery of all of the all of these assets and they're this bit of a real real world connection uh but the second I think more interesting is um how do you underwrite the user right like basically a user will not have all their assets on one chain they will have their assets in different chain that are purposely built for whatever asset is

125. 1:10:27

     been held there uh and then when you start thinking about uh minting debt for that user uh from an intent point of view uh that's when you start thinking like okay can I see the user across all chains uh connecting a little bit to AI from from yesterday's uh talks and near like can I can I have agents that go through all your assets across all chains um agents and do the underwriting uh and that's the price Discovery um but then put it all together and then

126. 1:10:58

     basically mint debt against all of your assets I don't know if that that answers the question very very much does above and beyond um and then Franco for you as well given the nature of what you're building in truly you know kind of flipping defi on its head a bit curious if you've faced any challenges just with adoption overall because it is the behavior is so ingrained I think in in the minds of of folks in using the existing D5 primitive obviously this is curates a better

127. 1:11:27

     experience but we love to hear a little bit more about how you've navigated that in bringing truly an innovation Innovative solution to to Market yeah that's a good question so um uh we have launched on testnet so far uh we're looking to launch into production uh at the end of this year um so so far uh our users have been you know mostly tested users um and particularly you know part

128. 1:11:51

     of our goto Market strategy at first was to uh reach out to potential projects that could integrate the yeah the technology in order to allow their users uh for kind of this seamless Crossing application um uh experience um I think uh you know the the feed that we got so far uh from this initial potential Integrations uh has been very positive um it's you know the the the simplest way to tell about it is that um for the user uh for example on

129. 1:12:21

     lending protocols uh users could use their Bitcoin to be Supply on uh on Templar or on Covenant or or they they could use their usdc on polygon um and the way that it will work uh is uh by our layer of uh composability um that will allow for first uh do a cross chain either Bridge or swap uh into the destination chain and then once it arrived uh you can swap for if the t is a mincome and there's no liquidity on

130. 1:12:52

     the on the on OPN Lane for that uh you can simply um Bridge uh USC and then once it arrived swap to the mean coin and then Supply that as collateral or you could repay death um I see you know user experience um is uh more and more scattered uh you got tokens on one chain on the other and then maybe you have to repay $100 and you have 20 there 15 there and you know uh you need to do some something quick um and uh you know OPN Lane can be kind of a clear venue

131. 1:13:24

     for that that uh to Simply use their tokens directly into the protocol and don't have to kind of the go through that painful experience of bridging find the bridge waiting and then kind of your position is more and more risky um so yeah uh I would say you know so far so good which is great to hear and I know we've spent a fair amount of time talking about Solutions and I think sometimes as a Founder the hardest thing to do is talking about Solutions so I

132. 1:13:49

     actually want to zoom out and talk about the market a little bit um and frco you brought it up of just and I think all of you are eliminating kind of pain points for users along your way and curious if there's been a unique Behavior or unique Insight from the users or customers that you're engaging that has surprised you just in your process of building open to anyone Royal I see your hand we can start with you I'd like to highlight

133. 1:14:12

     actually a pain point that a a friend of mine experienced very recently he wanted to bet on the outcome of the US election on poly market now he's not very crypto Savvy um so you know he knew that okay there's this address that I send the eth to right uh and he sent that on ethereum mainnet right but on poly Market you need to do that on polygon Network right uh so then you know he had the contact support and it's not clear whether or

134. 1:14:43

     not he's going to get his money back yeah that's uh a very uh clear uh example of a problem that is solved uh by kind of chain abstraction and chain signatures right doesn't matter what network you're working the users shouldn't have to care about that they should just care about what type of funds they have and what they want to do with them not the technical details of which chain that it's on so I think I think we're all making steps towards solving that no question no question and Alan Franco curious any

135. 1:15:14

     insights or observations on the behavior side whether it's pain or actually just user Behavior yeah so so regarding pain I mean I I can speak uh mostly for for myself um you know uh coming back again to to to my background uh you know at Ratt laps you know most of our uh yeah financials are in crypto um so we handle a lot of crypto uh and sometimes we know we receive know a payment on Tron then we receive a payment on Solana and you know all this different chains and we need we need to move the money so

136. 1:15:47

     overall you know per month we're like uh moving over half a million dollars uh and I know you know from firstand kind of how painful that is you know Finding what bridge has liquidity today maybe tomorrow it won't um and and kind of uh navigate all that pain points uh that the users you know we assume are also receiving um uh also you know very excited about uh the the intense movement uh we you know at we were uh kind of working our our solution

137. 1:16:20

     we weren't kind of uh looking uh to the broader ecosystem and we had nice surprise when we realized that we were what we were doing had a name already and that was intense and once we compare Solutions even with for example uh the uh the the standard that cross um that across and Unis swap released uh we we compared notes and we realized it was pretty similar so that was that was you know kind of nice Insight that we were actually kind of into a real issue and

138. 1:16:50

     that others were also kind of find Solutions um so yeah that was asked I think three three learnings or observations um the first going out and getting users uh the first thing that that came out is that or struck me is that most users right now in crypto right and this comes from the previous def sum and whatnot they all sort of like d gen Traders they all just want to lever up uh bet on something and and want to see it go up and what not right uh like crazy um this

139. 1:17:24

     second is uh the amount of uh liquidity fragmentation that exists out there and a lot of the solutions are like yes you can have shared liquidity but against and this is like a against six or seven liquid tokens but if you start going down the long tail and this is where people get very interested like it just becomes impossible right yeah and their chain abstraction kind of helps and then

140. 1:17:47

     the third is lots and lots of conversations with people bringing new assets on chain yep thinking about landing and start thinking about credit and hitting that wall of like uh lack of liquidity because of fragmentation and because most users right now on crypto are not looking for like a 3% yield 5% yield or whatever is across above treasury rates right and so it becomes a bit of a mismatch that I think slowly slowly and you see this across the market I guess that's the fourth Insight spreads are

141. 1:18:21

     are are going down right like everybody's like oh I get 20% and then now as you get more and more assets on chain everything is going down down down I think the more the existing users get used to like okay these are the new rates yep um it'll become easier for new assets to then get uh liquidity which I think Allan goes next to my next question and would love for maybe you to

142. 1:18:44

     kick it off is when you think about long-term building in this space how do you think about retention and ultimately actually building trust with your user which I I personally is one of the most compelling Moes in this space is trust so curious how that comes up for you and how you think about that no right or wrong answers here more just curious how you think about it and we can go around

143. 1:19:06

     I I'm I'm very conflicted because I'm in many ways and this is just my nature I'm I like systems and so I like sort of a decentralized system that works uh I think the reality is uh for building companies and trust and whatnot you kind of have to be like a a bit of a centralized brand like people have to recognize you you have to have that front end that people trust you can go

144. 1:19:30

     to will solve across chains or whatnot uh and so I would say the answer there is uh yeah build build a good brand that gives a solution to to to people and makes it really easy for people yeah curious Franco Roy if you have any other thoughts there as well um from our position uh how to build and you know I I I relate to to Alan's point of building brand um and for us we're trying to position op Lane as infrastructure layer um obviously we will have let's say a a front end uh

145. 1:20:03

     that'll be for our cross chain swap solution uh but that's just kind of the simplest use case of you know what up Lane can achieve um so for us kind of putting us into the infrastructure level we need to provide kind of a brand of security uh resilience uh you know it will it won't ever fail and things like that um so uh for us it's kind of building more on the tech side which is what I love honestly um so so focusing on the tech side uh building something really uh

146. 1:20:36

     scalable secure that is Battle tested uh and yeah going into uh production one step at a time amazing yeah I'd like to build on um what both of you have said uh there's two things one component you definitely need Technical scalability and actually for to work in the long run all the big tech companies they they they function based off of sharding right um and that's part of the what initially attracted me to near is I believe that in the long run

147. 1:21:08

     uh sharding is a very good way to scale blockchains right um so obviously you need you need proper Tech to build on that lasts in the long run uh and I think that even the good actors within the space that have built products unfortunately most of the infrastructure that they've built on has not been scalable to date right so I think uh that's obviously been uh a big barrier another one uh building on the brand is just uh good behavior right treat your

148. 1:21:41

     users the way you'd want to be treated um some a lot of people are in crypto because we feel like we have a moral authority to traditional Finance they don't treat people well there are billions of people that are excluded by tradition finance and frankly they just serve uh the interests of a very select few our goal is to serve everyone equally level the economic playing field um so we need to step up to the plate

149. 1:22:07

     and uh act properly there um yeah I I think I think the tech and um behaving well um are going to be the uh the key things uh that we need to do and uh finally if I may add um there needs to be uh better uh acceptance uh from both people and governments around the world for in order for this to work well uh quickly uh certainly crypto is wartime Tech uh it's uh protecting you against um poor uh behavior from governments uh and large

150. 1:22:46

     corporations um but you know you need to be able to send uh those assets and you need to be able to participate without fear of being thrown in jail or uh the IRS or other tax authorities coming after you for simply uh transacting with your own money not even for Behavior man maybe you should have moderated this panel thank you for sharing that incredibly powerful we have two minutes here left folks I want to go rapid fire down the line and Royal you actually kind of already started it off number one biggest misconception about

151. 1:23:17

     building in Defi and number two any advice you would have to aspiring defi Founders we go Rapidfire down the line Franco we can start with you ah uh that's a tough one uh biggest misconception of building defi um so I would say uh at least from me and kind of um counteracting what I say earlier about focusing on the tech side um you know when I was coming in and this is kind of my my my first uh kind of

152. 1:23:48

     founder um defa project being as a Founder um uh I I guess I'm focusing two way too much on the tech perhaps uh I should focus a little bit more on the community side um I I got some people um uh actually yeah telling me that uh so I I would say that that's my biggest uh uh issue right now I I I should you know we should be kind of focusing a little bit more on uh the testing on the test net um opening uh testet for the community

153. 1:24:18

     and yeah uh with that comment uh yeah I'm saying that uh on December 1st that we're doing kind of our open testet for the public uh would probably be incentivizing that as well uh in collaborations with uh some people from the New Foundation uh thanks for that uh yeah I would say that's fine amazing 30 seconds each for both you Allan and Royal I think from from a Founder perspective the the biggest uh misconception or or or or thing about uh defi is is the the the Reliance on

154. 1:24:51

     community community is really really really huge um uh anything in in defi or crypto you want to build the second I think for anybody uh the crypto Community themselves they don't realize that that defi really really relies a lot on centralized Finance there's a stronger connection than most people realize um yeah uh defi is not just for dents those are just the people that are

155. 1:25:16

     kind of the largest users and the most loud in the space uh defi uh enables the financial Primitives for Global free markets without interference and that is for everyone to participate in not just you Jens incredible can we give a round of applause for the folks building the future of defi all right thank you all for coming out to this panel um I believe we're going to hand it back to our MC next thank you

156. 1:26:02

     woo that was awesome it's great to hear how you know chain abstraction is going to solve so many pain points within the crypto industry um a quick note please do head over to the Zen Zone in that corner of the complex um where you can get yourself a massage which is where I'm going to be heading to um next anyway on to the next topic um I think it's abundantly now that multichain is

157. 1:26:25

     definitely going to be the future um and if if that's going to be the case um cross chain liquidity is going to be like super important um so that's the topic that we're going to be discussing next cross-chain liquidity and the future of multi-chain dexes we're going to have um Sid vwar um from Electric Capital who's going to be moderating this panel so please give Sid a very warm welcome

158. 1:27:06

     okay hey everybody how's it going you guys ready to jump in real quickly uh let's see who we're talking with today uh we have Franco from omn lanane Andy Cho from uh fra and AIT from okx I think you guys have already met Franco so anit you want to give a quick intro about yourself yeah for sure so hey everyone my name is anit I'm a product lead at okx o uh what we are building is a an open source full stack developer

159. 1:27:36

     platform uh that can be used to build all sorts of web 3 applications onchain any chain and um yeah here today uh representing more of the Dex API team uh the Dex API used for a ton of different applications and excited to go into that today so yeah uh hi guys uh so my name is Andy uh I lead ecosystem and strategies at fra Finance um at frax we do a lot of things in the defi realm um right now we like to call oursel the decentralized bank of crypto so we do um

160. 1:28:10

     three different types of stable coins we do our own subprotocols like permission lending markets our amms uh which I think we're going to go over today uh we have our LSD and recently we launched our own L2 called fraxel um which is pretty interesting so yeah happy to be here awesome let's jump right into it um so what do you guys think are the main technical challenges to achieving seamless cross chain liquidity today

161. 1:28:36

     Franco you want to start all right um so if I had to say kind of the two biggest things uh that are are a challenge for kind of cross chain equility I would say the first is uh infrastructure um so nowadays in order to build um or order to connect to different ecosystems you need a lot infrastructure deploy you need oracles uh you need uh maybe sometimes side chain uh validators and whatnot um and it seems like uh blockchains are coming

162. 1:29:07

     up every day at a faster base uh then you can integrate so infrastructure so or Solutions uh that kind of strive or once you connect this ecosystems need to kind of find a simpler infrastructure uh uh you know to keep up with a pace and the second I would say is uh liquidity efficiency um I think amm are extremely valuable uh they feel a a big part on uh the centralized Finance um uh but they

163. 1:29:39

     also have uh issues with efficiency a lot of money is used as sandb backs for providing price assistance uh for sage and and whatnot um uh so I think uh if we are if if we will have tons of different blockchains uh coming up every day we need a more Capital efficient solution cool um for me I think uh because you touched on great things as well I think for me it it would have to be security um obviously and then liquid fragmentation with all these other you

164. 1:30:12

     know l2s coming out I think in the future there's going to be more than like a thousand chains um and it's just the fragmentation is going to get worse and worse and commenting a little bit about the infra side of things with oracles being needed um I think there's a lot of Innovations um that's coming out um I right now at fra we're doing something called borrowed automated Market maker which we're going to launch soon and um it's going to be per uh you

165. 1:30:34

     know permissionless uh we're not going to need oracles because the liquidity is going to be provided by the lenders and um that's some I think eventually slowly we're trying to figure out all these things Al together um and in terms of security I think it's always an issue where if it's controlled by like a centralized you know entity um so yeah I think those two are the main things that are kind of worrisome for me in moving into the future yeah

166. 1:31:01

     then uh in addition to the liquidity fragmentation and the security um the only thing I would add there is just the user experience right so like making sure it's uh super um as we're sort of connecting these different chains into ecosystems just making it making it super uh simple for developers to access the different chains because we know the future is going to be multi-chain so um a lot of the work that we're doing within OS right now is sort of

167. 1:31:24

     connecting all these heterogeneous chains and now we have something like more than 20 networks supported more than 20 Bridges and access to more than 400 different dexes so it's a it's a very sort of like uh almost like a cat and mouse game of like you know a new chain pops up new liquidity Source pops up we have to quickly access it you know and and bring it into our API so um yeah it's not easy but uh someone's got to do

168. 1:31:49

     it and yeah we're just excited to open up these apis to developers too so great great um how do you guys see the relationship between centralized exchanges and cross-chain dexes evolving on onit to know that you guys have uh the okx Dex API so love to hear your perspective and them yeah we're definitely in a very unique position with the exchange and uh the Dex product uh being so popular within the okx wallet so definitely have a good like Vantage view like what we're seeing uh on that side I think you know the two

169. 1:32:21

     are very complimentary and in many cases we're seeing that you know different Protocols are tapping into uh centralized exchanges for the liquidity and sort of most evidence by like private market makers um and I think at the end of the day like these are you know necessary systems to provide better rates for users uh and you know I think there are some trade-offs around centralization and essentially how we're sourcing these quotes but um and how we're actually decentralizing this this

170. 1:32:51

     sort of whole network but um yeah I think as a as a sort of ecosystem it's been um really cool to see that that grow now yeah no I think I agree I think it's complimentary um it's you know we can't deny the fact that it's a lot more friendlier and it's easier to use centralized exchanges for like people who are just getting into it and um Def and even dexes um it's always been very uh there has been a learning curve for people to just come in um whereas like

171. 1:33:20

     you can just tap into for example in Korea or anywhere else it's very easy and seamless to just go into the market and get liquidity um for dexes you require an abundance of things and you need to actually learn how to use it um so commenting on like your UI ux experience I think that's very important and that's something that um eventually that dexas will have to figure out a way to make it seamless and easier um and I

172. 1:33:43

     think that comes along with um probably like implementations in the future with like for example AI um where you can kind of tap into different dexes and get liquidity and kind of do these swaps uh instead of doing like six clicks and different transactions with just one click and choosing what what what kind of you know Network and what you want um just by a seamless click making that would be um a lot easier and I think

173. 1:34:08

     that would bring a lot of uh users and liquidity from over from centralized exchanges to Texas uh so I think there's a lot of opportunities for both you know players to work with each other um I think they're both competitors uh on there could there could be potentially a relationship for Synergy I mean there's definitely overlap with cross chain swaps um or Bridges um also uh with intent based protocols and solvers coming up uh I've

174. 1:34:39

     spoken a lot of them and they use usually um uh exchanges in order to rebalance their positions um for continue you know serving into the intent base infrastructure uh so that's obviously a Synergy but uh also kind of a a an overlap for crossing swaps um but I think you know they also serve different purposes because centralized exchanges they don't allow for much composability so you can't really connect uh a protocol uh directly with

175. 1:35:09

     the onchain call to something to happen inside the centralized exchange maybe that's a good idea I'm just saying but um that for some reason until is not happening so um cross change swaps or decentralized exchanges still are the only way in which you can kind of build uh defi um so yeah I would say that cool Frank I'm glad you uh mentioned intense so today a lot of the liquidity and trading activity exists on amm and amm like Primitives do we think the future of cross chain liquidity

176. 1:35:42

     continues to stay on amm transitions to order books or intent like platforms um so I think one of the earliest um uh one of the earliest idea for Dex access uh was I I wouldn't say in based but peerto peer uh really uh and then uh thanks to metallics post uh you know it's gotten to the point that amm uh was kind of the definite uh solution at the very beginning uh there they serve extremely well for Price uh discoverability uh and for connecting

177. 1:36:14

     two peers um uh so I I I think that amm still are and will be uh a big part of defi uh they also serve the purpose of being a great financial product uh for people that just want to get some interest on their assets um uh but also you know they uh they let's say suffer or they they are subject to um some kind of issues that intents don't necessarily have such as the Sleep Edge uh um the the m m uh attacks and things like that

178. 1:36:46

     uh were intent kind of separate kind of the negotiation phase from the settlement phase uh which uh essentially gets R of all that uh and allows uh for most efficient swapping yeah I agree heavily on that and coming from like a D5 project obviously I would like to think that you know amm are the ways to the Future and to be honest I like to think that we're still very early um into exploring and figuring out the solutions for different

179. 1:37:15

     like T or amm or you know dexes and liquidity fragmentation and I think every day we're getting closer um for example for amm there's a lot you can do with it like you said um we're doing like something like twwm which is like a Time weighted average Market maker where users are able to you know provide liquidity over a long period of time and you know kind of deload their liquidity over a long period of time up to I think

180. 1:37:39

     years um and then we're launching like I mentioned borrow automated market makers and these are some things that you know a lot of people that are trying to figure things out still on dexes and automated market makers um and we're slowly getting there and I think think it's it's every every time there's a new solution and we're doing one thing better we're getting a step closer and um I think eventually and hopefully um well that it might be a hot take for a

181. 1:38:04

     lot of people but I think amm are going to be you know ultimately the solution yeah yeah definitely echoing that I mean I don't think amm are are going anywhere uh there's just like no easier way to just you know launch a market around some sort of new asset and yeah I think they're definitely here um I think intents are also uh you know I think seeing a lot of exciting stuff there I think that it's also important to like point out some of

182. 1:38:30

     the risks with intents right I think that you know relay networks not being decentralized is is sort of a a concern and uh hopefully that gets better over time um also just like the you know you see like so many different intense standards uh especially in the ethereum space so how does it actually become standardized you know there's some like uh proposals around um you know new sort

183. 1:38:53

     of cross rollup standards uh to enable like um more interoperability and really curious if you know even the near ecosystem is kind of pushing in that direction but um yeah there's there's a couple pieces to watch out for there uh but yeah for the long term at least for the Dex API like we're looking to integrate whatever Solutions out there to again ultimately provide the the best

184. 1:39:16

     rates and and the highest security so bridges are you know one of the largest categories that have fa hacks and exploits how do we improve the security standard across the space to make sure that users feel safe about accessing liquidity and improving that experience across chains an do you want to start yeah so I think uh on this on the bridges side you know whenever we're looking to integrate new chains like we actually do a lot of um a lot of sort of Upfront for upfront work you know we have to make sure that the dexes

185. 1:39:47

     themselves have been audited and we run internal audits on our side um so I think as a sort of like platform that's providing these apis like it's again really important that you know we're doing our due diligence so I mean that's like a start it's it's definitely not enough but you know we're exploring like Advanced uh ways to label potentially risky tokens you know things that might be honeypots and just exposing that in

186. 1:40:10

     the in the end points itself um so yeah it's there's a lot of work to do uh but yeah it's not an easy problem for sure so yeah for for us I think um there's a lot to com comment on obviously uh I think it was like the last defi run def summer we saw aot a bunch of um exploits on different Bridges and uh that kind of spooked the whole defi scene and that was actually the motivation for one of our products called fra faery which is like an in-house bridge and obviously there is trust involved but um I think

187. 1:40:41

     it's a there's a big trade-off um so for fraf it's the efficiency might not be the greatest it takes 24 to 48 hours for you to move assets but U the the good thing is it's very secure um given that you have this formality of trust with us so the how it works is you're able we we have a 24 to 48 hour time frame to see if there's anything malicious in the middle and that's when we kind of you

188. 1:41:05

     know close the order um so that was actually the motivation the only bad not bad but the only hard thing about this is for us to support different chains or any other Bridges I think because we're doing a lot of things um it takes a lot of development work um and there's the question of decentralization um again uh to kind of decentralize fra I think it'll take another I guess you know a

189. 1:41:28

     period or quarter of work for us to kind of figure out um but again it's a very hard problem to solve and um but you know I I think eventually the security side of things will get better um like you said due diligence is the first start and this is this was another you know step forward for us and a case study to build and right now I think fra survey supports a few chains but ultimately I don't think it's the most

190. 1:41:52

     sustainable Sol solution um and so yeah that's that's what I can comment on that one yeah um and my inside coming also from the developer uh World obviously you got you know due diligence and Audits and all the stuff uh but from a design point of view just keeping it simple as simple as possible I think that's the ultimate best uh way to to go about security uh the less moving Parts uh the less surface or error you'll have um you and ultimately yeah it's it's

191. 1:42:27

     less um probable that you you you'll encounter uh an issue uh on OPN Lane we're trying to kind of Oracle less Bridge less um anything kind of less um uh infrastructure and that has uh served us obviously it doesn't really translate to all the use cases uh but I would say in general just keeping it as simple as possible is kind of the way to go modularity has led to this you know explosion of chains uh but that

192. 1:42:59

     explosion has led to an increase of fragmentation of liquidity um what can teams launching new chains learn from what the ecosystem has built over the last few years to help access the liquidity that already exists versus further um aiding in the fragmentation um I can go um yeah so so I I don't think I can really help those teams uh with with a a great answer yeah it's a tough problem um and you know what what I see is that there and this

193. 1:43:32

     is bad but probably uh a lot of projects because I I think I think like the cross chain um rich and and kind of the the protocols that are working hasn't um they I don't think they have uh caught up the pace of the kind of expanding uh uh demand uh so I think a lot of projects will see that they will kind of feel uh like choked they won't have liquidity to work uh they won't have kind of venues to to or ways to go into their uh the different blockchains uh so

194. 1:44:04

     I wish the best of luck to those projects um and uh yeah I I hope that we can kind of move as fast as possible to kind of uh go go for rescue for those yeah for it's it's interesting cuz we launched our L2 as well um not long ago called fraxel and um we actually did this and the reason why we did this was because we realized that there's going to be a thousand change and we wanted to

195. 1:44:26

     be the Forefront of it and we saw that as like a final vision for fra um but like you mentioned I think with upcoming all with all these chains there's going to be more fragmentation um and I think it's a simple like game of supply and demand and it's going to be I don't want to say it because we always do our our ideology is kind of positive some working together and we we are still working together but I don't think there's

196. 1:44:51

     enough um like I think like for example Manpower or you know Ina for them to support all these chain uh chains right So eventually I think there's going to be an over an overhyped amount of chains coming out and then there's going to be a fall and it's going to hopefully decrease the fragmentation but it's I think that's one of the main problems that we're going to face in the future with all these chains coming out yeah I definitely can can relate to that cuz previously uh the nox we were

197. 1:45:23

     launching the the X layer blockchain which was with polygon cdk so you are seeing this sort of like uh at least in the ethereum space again like this uh um sort of coales people coalescing around you know the super chain the op stack or agir or you know orbitum orbits um so as a chain like at minimum you know make your life a little bit easier and at least be a part of one of these larger sort of economic zones um but you know

198. 1:45:48

     if you're if you're a pro If you're sort of a dii protocol or you know uh just just looking to quickly access the the multi-chain ecosystem I I'd really recommend checking out the Dex API because you know with something like the widget uh that we've created like a few lines of code you can just access you know help help people Bridge into your ecosystem and uh again make it super seamless so there are like stop gaps

199. 1:46:12

     before we get to the full-blown interoperability that everyone wants so yeah great great thanks everybody I'm sure we could talk about cross chain liquidity for hours but that's all the time we have today please give a round of Applause for a kit andyan Franco wow what a incredible panel um thank you to our amazing speakers so next up we're going to be hearing from Jake aju from Gauntlet um he'll be

200. 1:47:00

     providing an update on House of stake which is a truly Cutting Edge um governance structure um if you guys are near token holders which I suspect you might be um you'll definitely want to hear this so please give a very warm welcome to Jake all right everybody hear me okay great thanks for uh joining today uh our presentation is a partnership update on how the near Foundation has been working with gauntlet um to focus

201. 1:47:42

     on new governance and new ecosystem growth through the house of stake uh our agenda for today is as follows we're going to start by taking a historical look at progress we've made looking back in the most recent months um making progress towards a proposal implementation uh a look at the current state what's in Flight what we're working on right this minute and then looking forward the progress we can expect to see in the next few months as

202. 1:48:05

     we see an exciting future for near overall and within the house of stake as well first I'll introduce myself hi I'm Jake I'm a senior protocol strategist at Gauntlet I've been with gauntlet for about two years prior to Gauntlet I was working in trafi and fintech and data science startups uh in the non- crypto world uh focusing on optimization of companies infrastructure and intelligence um but

203. 1:48:30

     now I'm here at gaunlet focusing on the protocol growth and ecosystem growth team uh if you don't know gaunlet we are an economic modeling and def5 services company focusing on working with the best defi protocols and teams and daps in all of crypto um so we try to work on providing infrastructure intelligence and incentive optimization as well as things like treasury management risk management for Perpetual protocols dexes

204. 1:48:55

     and lending protocols for all of defi so we'll jump right into it looking back at our partnership so far let's talk about what gaunt's original scope was um so you guys might have seen in uh June of this year we put up our announ announcement uh for our partnership uh there's a lot of details that go into the partnership but we'll just start with kind of the two high Lev themes being governance and ecosystem growth um so what does governance mean uh you know

205. 1:49:25

     defi ecosystems as a whole both within defi than in the real world like the news most recently you'll see that uh governance is still something that needs to iterate and continuously improve um so what we were designed to do for near was work with the foundation to design a stake weighted governance framework and propose an actual solution to the rest of the uh Community uh in parallel and in accordance with that proposal we want

206. 1:49:49

     to focus on ecosystem growth uh utilizing our expertise with things like incentive optimization and incentive intelligence um to implement targeted initiatives to encourage onchain activity and actual organic user flow but why is that important um and why is that important not only to defi as a whole but also to the new ecosystem specifically um so there's a ton of context in here that the new ecosystem has gone through a bunch of experiences that you know they would probably would have a much better job of explaining uh

207. 1:50:21

     than this one slide but High level uh near was founded on a proof of humanity uh framework which means that one person gets one vote and it doesn't matter if it's Ilia proposing a code change or some uh new user uh they have the same amount of power in executing a code or a grant proposal um this was a really you know nice and uh egalitarian idea that uh theoretically would be really great if it worked out but I think you know objectively there are a lot of issues that the UN ecosystem has experienced um

208. 1:50:53

     which is what led this proposal and this partnership to come to be um just a high Lev overview of what some of those issues were is that when there's onetoone voting it's really hard to get people to agree on things um which means that things like proposing uh funding for Grants and new apps and token launches and different uh Partnerships within the ecosystem it was very difficult to get those across um which

209. 1:51:16

     led to a very low number of success rates for Grant proposals and execution within year compared to other big L1 ecosystems uh in the industry and as that happened there was not a ton of incentive alignment when it came to engagement and participation for the governance ecosystem and the the voters themselves so you saw a dramatic decrease in NDC voting participation going from 500 votes to about 100 over

210. 1:51:42

     the course of two years so pretty pretty dramatic drop off so what is the solution um again you guys might have seen this proposal online but our proposal was the house of St this was developed in tight collaboration with the near Foundation coming from a lot of ideas that IL has proposed over the years as well as tons of research that we've done both with near and you know within our defi experience looking at ecosystems such as

211. 1:52:07

     arbitrum optimism ethereum Unis swap to understand what's been working for them and what hasn't and what we can apply to get some nice wise lessons for the new EOS system as they get ready for their next chapter so in those recent months we did end up actually proposing the house of stake uh document and the house of stake blog post uh what this does to apply to the pains that uh the new yor EOS system was facing was it implies the stake weighted voting which is again not a novel idea

212. 1:52:38

     this is something that's used widely across defi it rewards people who are economically incentivized economic economically aligned within the ecosystem to have more of a say uh when it comes to things like protocol upgrades security measures or new launches um it also introduced The V near token this token allows to allows users to be rewarded for engagement uh rewarded for locking themselves in to being committed

213. 1:53:04

     to the new ecosystem um and gives you know more of incentive alignment that we didn't see in the previous uh framework and uh we also established a new flow of committees and organizations with their own roles and responsibilities um that all coordinate and collaborate together to make sure that proposals are actually secure that they're efficient and that they actually go through on chain so that uh things

214. 1:53:28

     can actually happen uh so then you'll see that there's a lot of you know comments and questions on this post it got a lot of uh attention which was really great for us we love the feedback we went through one iteration of feedback after a mechanism change was recommended To Us by the community which was extremely helpful um I'm getting a lot of questions this week from other near uh ecosystem members about when is this going to be live and then something

215. 1:53:51

     we'll talk about later in the presentation so again uh this presentation was you know many I mean sorry this proposal was many uh pages long I'm not going to dive into all the deep math that our data science team did happy to get into that uh if we have more time or you know in private discussion I'm just going to go over the highle flow of the proposed framework that we've that we

216. 1:54:15

     presented um so what you'll see here this is just the from the ecosystem perspective not the user perspective um we have the start of the process being the proposal being made by any near member uh typical ways that you do this is you create a forum post you do some community outreach you get feedback from people you take in comments maybe you update your proposal maybe you don't um

217. 1:54:38

     but you do that on the forums and you make a proposal with specific actions contract calls um or you know recommendations to the ecosystem themselves there is then a temperature check phase of around 7 days this is again pretty standard with other major L1 ecosystems um to give the community time to provide feedback to make sure that this proposal is sound and then there is a pre-screening committee which is a new committee that we've

218. 1:55:02

     recommended in our framework this committee is going to be made up of you know experienced near members who are vested in the success of the near ecosystem as well as potentially new elected members who are responsible for reviewing the proposal in detail and making a recommendation to the community about if this proposal is one that they would move forward with the real effect of that committee you know is to allow

219. 1:55:25

     for either a majority or a super majority for the community to then vote on so if the screen Community were to say hey this looks like a good proposal we reviewed it at length here's our recommendation to move forward then it would only require 51% for the community to pass this proposal via non-chain governance vote uh if they were to reject the proposal for any number of reasons that you know they think this proposal might not be successful for the

220. 1:55:49

     near ecosystem um then it would have to be a super majority meaning that over three out of every four people would have to accept this proposal as something that they think is is an improvement for an near following that uh decision by the screening committee there is a actual onchain vote which allows anybody with v near stake tokens to weigh in on the ecosystem's future and decide if this

221. 1:56:14

     vote is something that they want to execute on chain so that means anybody with vener tokens whether you have one or a thousand you can submit your vote of course the more you have the more voting power you can contribute um that phase is uh 14 days that allows again for more vetting by more people um it allows voters to provide more discourse on the forums or elsewhere maybe through a spaces to

222. 1:56:36

     understand if this post is something that they all want to agree on and post the successful uh approval of that vote the onchain the onchain contract calls within that proposal will be executed um so what that might look like is it might look like a security upgrade it might look like and and you know funds being sent from you know one contract to another or it could look like a you know a fundamental change for the near

223. 1:57:00

     L1 um as that passes you know things break things happen uh uh a normal uh or a standard approach for most of these ecosystems is to have some sort of emergency implementation flow in place things like Crisis management uh things like you know avoiding a hack um to hedge those things from happening you have things like a Security Council which is another new committee that we've recommended which will have members that the near foundation and gaunet suggests with expertise uh in

224. 1:57:31

     security and chain security to make sure that things like hacks or protocol freezes um can only happen uh when they need to from a voting perspective uh there we also recommended endorsed delegates this is something that arbitr and optimism have also uh dabbled with uh what that means is that they'll be just like in the voting in your you know of the US with Senate and representatives there will be kind of larger parties with more

225. 1:57:55

     responsibility to contribute to the near ecosystem with specific expertise um they will be endorsed by both the foundation and the community there also be regular delegates so you can self-d delegate you can recommend a non-or member to to delegate to um and what this allows for is that you know people like me who I I don't have Smart contract auditing experience uh I might not trust myself to to look through every line of code for near but I can

226. 1:58:21

     trust someone like open Zeppelin or you know other smart contract Auditors that ner you know has used in the past and I can delegate my vote for those those sorts of decisions so what this all looks like you know as a whole flow you guys can see here proposals will come in voters will provide their input and then as the different security measures and committees give their own input uh these

227. 1:58:44

     proposals will either be ejected uh accepted or rejected so what does this look like in the current state what's going on right now we are building building building uh we are in collaboration with fast near another uh seasoned veteran and the near ecosystem to actually implement the proposal and framework that we've recommended so they're in the process of building this and getting it audited right now we put some tweets up to give you guys some timeline of expectations

228. 1:59:08

     but of course some things take faster or some things take slower than expected we're also doing uh some of that ecosystem growth that we talked about in our initial proposal uh initial partnership proposal um where we talk about uh and focus on in incentives for ref Finance that's the major dexs on year right now we're seeing pretty strong results so far uh We've distributed around a quarter of a

229. 1:59:33

     million dollars in incentives for ref which means that we're basically incentivizing people to provide liquidity for all the most important token pools on the number one decks in near right now uh we're seeing pretty strong uh results be our kpis we're we're incentivizing volume so we want people to actually trade these tokens and were rewarding pools that do get that volume while ref took a small hit in the past month as there was some

230. 1:59:57

     Market volatility we're still seeing good growth for pools that we are actually targeting and we are seeing a really interesting Trend with bridged assets having the highest Roi um within our strategies when and when you think of things like chain abstraction this is a good indicator that you know people are bridging assets to near uh which is very very important so looking forward House of stake go live and

231. 2:00:21

     community enabl um so we're really excited for the house of sck to go live we're really excited for the community to get a chance to participate uh and you know submit proposals uh what can anybody in the near e system do to help you can get those proposals ready uh if you have a recommendation to the ecosystem if you want to get your project funded out of the near treasury uh start to write

232. 2:00:43

     those proposals if you haven't already and start to get some Community feedback uh within you know the uh appropriate near channels um beep preped to stake your near and vote so a lot of people are staking their near through you know things like stake near Alternatives or you might just be holding near but you have to be ready to get those you know those wallets ready get those ledgers ready and make sure you can get V near to actually be a contributor and then think about who you want to delegate to

233. 2:01:09

     um so we have not disclo you know we've not published our call for delegates yet but we are getting ready to endorse delegates or recommend Endor delegates and we want to make sure that you guys have as much time as you need to vet them yourselves ask questions and of course suggest your own here are our next steps we're hoping for the complete contract development complete uh deadline of end of year we

234. 2:01:34

     are hoping to start establishing delegates and endorse delegates within the beginning of q1 and we're hoping to see the first proposals go live for end of q1 so we have a very busy next few months coming up wasting it in touch uh that's my Twitter and Telegram absolutely love any and all questions there's a lot of uh deep math and data science that I had a lot of trouble you know processing on my

235. 2:01:59

     own time so if you guys have any questions please please please come and ask if you want to uh get uh better understanding for what Lon does overall or what we're continuing to do for near year again please reach out we love questions and uh thank you for your time today that was an incredible update um by Jake I'm very excited for that to go live so I can start staking start voting um we're going to move to our favorite my

236. 2:02:35

     favorite time of the day which is um lunch time so please go have your fill and get back here for 1:15 where we'll be talking all about intent see every my real

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     it fck e

254. 2:26:39

     he cool video um welcome back from lunch guys and we're running quite a tight schedule so we're just going to dive straight in the next session is about the coming intense based Commerce economy who better to guide us through this than the one and only Kendall Cole um Cole co-founder of proximity lab so please give Kendall a very warm

255. 2:27:48

     welcome all right well you all are in for a special treat on this session we have some of the I think actual experts when it comes to building intent-based products and so what we are going to talk about is really just diving into uh I think actually a couple of uh underexplored areas around intense like not just defining them but really talking about how they can be used and what people don't understand so first

256. 2:28:11

     let's start off well I guess just a quick round of intros uh so we've got Adrien up here from anoma We've Got Jake from coin fund and then we've got got Chris from across if you guys want to maybe just talk a little bit about you know yourself and your project and then we can uh dive in yeah I'm Adrien from anoma um anoma very much cares about building a distributed operating system for generalized intents I think intents

257. 2:28:36

     are literally the solution for everything it requires counterpart discovery which is like 99% of the stuff we want to do I mean earlier talk Zaki was talking about how all of these systems are coordination systems and coordination fundamentally requires more than one person and so anything that requires more than one person needs an intent based system I'm Jake Brookman founder and CEO

258. 2:28:59

     of coin fund I'm a engineer generalist technologist been working uh on you know focusing on blockchain investing for the last nine years or so um coin fund is a early crypto fund based in New York Miami and Boston um and looking at all areas of the blockchain space but I primarily spend my time in you know deep Tech and blockchain infrastructure and I'm Chris um work at a cross protocol as a research engineer I've been with the parent or Uma

259. 2:29:31

     protocol for close to 5 years now um and yeah it crosses a intent Bridge um our primary use case of intents to begin with is high-speed asset bridging um kind of identifying that the friction point that users experience today really is moving assets and that's where we're starting awesome well yeah so what I wanted to kick it off with is uh where you guys like since you spend a lot of

260. 2:29:54

     time kind of since you guys spend a lot of the time I think kind of like talking about this this product with uh and and the the solution with people on crypto Twitter and broadly in the space like what are some of the common misconceptions like the I guess the the things people aren't thinking about right when they think about intents um yeah I think a lot of people think that intents must be limit orders

261. 2:30:19

     and will only ever be limit orders I think this is certainly not true I think certainly a lot of the early use cases have intents beave like limit orders but really intense it's all about generalized intense because this is where you get actually most of the composability from the ability to not to have not application specific intents but rather General intents so that solvers can compose across like this safe multii intent plus the sort of

262. 2:30:45

     gitcoin funding intent plus limit order intent this is where I think you'll see the actual 10x unlocks of intense um because we're just going to make everything about 10x more composable um and then probably another 10x by also making this cross chain composable again uh I would say people have a really poor understanding of what intents are and one of the reasons is that there's a lot of um manifestations of intents in the market like here we have a cross protocol a very specific

263. 2:31:16

     dedicated implementation of intents for a specific P purpose which is you know bridging across blockchains here we have a Noma which is a more generalized intense framework that's meant to um kind of encapsulate that functionality in general you have other um projects in the market that for example are creating intents in the context of their own blockchain you have others that are creating intents in the context of not so much interoperability

264. 2:31:48

     technology itself but an inter face to aggregating a lot of different blockchains into into one like intense functionality and so I think until um people can really get their hands on some of these Technologies it's it's going to be a little bit opaque for people but I hope I help to disambiguate it a little bit yeah I think I have two answers here like the first one is from like a technical perspective I've heard a lot of uh misconceptions that intents are like incompatible with other

265. 2:32:18

     scalability or like account abstraction Solutions um and I kind of to to your point earlier like I think that's not necessarily true right like these systems can be designed to be modular enough that they're compatible with like other components um and then related to this also from like a more technical perspective um I've heard like takes that intents are like strictly more difficult to integrate with versus other types of systems and I think that's also

266. 2:32:42

     a misconception a lot of the time because the interesting thing about intense is that they push complexity to the edges right like the the relayer often is the one like or the solver or the whatever we want to call them depending on the system is the one taking on like the path to define the execution right if we're looking at like a swap for example um if you're not using an intent system you need to Define like the full execution Trace uh whereas if it's an intent you just Define the output and push that complexity to the edge so that actually

267. 2:33:08

     makes Integrations often easier for like intense systems versus other kinds of systems actually I think like now I thinking about this and also listening to your answer it's like intense aren't like in this space we kind of have this idea that it always must be like well X replaces y That's always against something intents are just very orthogonal like intents are a very new thing um that just enables new things it's not intents aren't that going to replace VMS for example like virtual machines uh like intent machines

268. 2:33:39

     and VMS aren't competitive you can build intent machines on top of virtual machines it's like I I think in the space you always have to be very careful to not fall trapped to like oh my word must be replacing your word because this is the only way the attention shifts it's more like this is a like we can build a lot of these things on top of each other without having to compete

269. 2:34:02

     there yeah I think that's a good distinction so uh you guys both I mean all of you pretty much mentioned like swaps is like I guess the the current most obvious implementation of intents like where do you think we're going to start seeing or R already are starting to see some other applications of intents so maybe I'll go first just because I think we have like level one and then you can go to level n um so swaps beginning but the like key feature that we have in across is this thing

270. 2:34:26

     called across plus so that's basically like in simple terms like Bridge plus action so that's like Beyond swaps right so you moving between two chains and then you like call some arbitary call data at the end of the bridging action um and our settlement system is verifying that both the bridge or swap plus this like final output have been fulfilled the way that the user had specified um and an example could be

271. 2:34:51

     like I don't know bridge to a chain and then deposit into a money market right it's like it's marginally additional functionality but for a lot of use cases this is actually like the secret source that they need right like your user is at like I want to buy the nft and they don't have assets on that chain but they have assets on base right so then like the bridge plus swap action there is like okay detect that they have assets on the other chain pull the assets to the Target chain where they want to go

272. 2:35:14

     and then perform like one action right which could be like combinatorial but yeah so that's like step one for us and I'm sure like AA has a lot more to say on that all right I can sort of go all the way to step n and we can see if we get that by inductive reasoning um so intense what they generally do is they abstract execution from State layout uh so in an intent you define specifically I currently have state a and I'd like to have state B and I actually don't care how I transition from A to B and the system just checks

273. 2:35:46

     that or like wherever the intent machine is sort of currently running for example this could be on ethereum this could be on salana this could be on a global an noral L1 it could be anywhere where you can implement the intent machine it the system just checks that your constraints were adhere to right so like that you currently started from State a and only got to State B and so with the limit order for example this just looks like I currently have some Ethan I want at least this much Bitcoin and that's then

274. 2:36:10

     new intent um and so you can imagine now the number of use cases you can build uh anything that requires counterparty Discovery where you don't have the other leg of the S of State transition where this could be I have a for B and someone else needs to have B for a in order to make the settleable but this doesn't even have to be one for one it can be like I have a for B someone else B for c c for d d for e and then lastly e for a um one very common use case that I think

275. 2:36:35

     most people don't think about but which is an intense system is a rollup like any sort of L2 it's clearly intense Centric it's an intense system um because again you just collapse a number of State transitions together into a single state transition um the use case that I'm pretty excited about uh around for example gitcoin where we want to have the ability to actually have very decentralized applications so without having to rely on someone like sort of

276. 2:37:00

     centrally in a Google spreadsheet running the computation of which project should get fun and then executing it we can rather say well with intents we all commit to if and only if this project actually gets funding do does our money get pulled from our account right so you can do these kinds of things um another very simple example is the no to Safe two out of three multi s is an intent Centric system because but currently you send your intent your partial signature

277. 2:37:24

     to uh the NOA safe server effectively and the last person pulls it from there in the future you can just send this to sort of the anoma intent gossip Network and then whether your transaction or whether you intend it's going to be settable on ethereum or Solana I don't actually care like it's just common infrastructure that handles generalized intents that can then be executed against a normaliz operating

278. 2:37:46

     system yeah I um it's a good question in terms of applications but maybe like let me give you a view of how intense might um impact smart Contracting itself like I definitely talked to projects at least some projects in the market that have this approach but basically you know today when we Implement um uh daps right we're we're using like imperative programming and writing solidity writing smart contracts with

279. 2:38:17

     intense networks There's an opportunity to to agent point to like abstract the execution of that um what comes in intense networks is a you know a kind of an execution Network a relayer network where we're effectively like abstracting the execution away and so what we can actually go and do is go from imperative programming to more declarative programming probably a lot of people in

280. 2:38:41

     more technical but for anyone who doesn't know what that means um it's essentially a way of like defining the functionality of your pro program through constraints and then offloading the implementation um of your of your contract to a to a network that you don't really care how they kind of fit within those constraints and except as long as they deliver the output that you want and so

281. 2:39:06

     there's kind of this opportunity to again like change the way that we program applications longer term um and that potentially opens up you know maybe more accessibility to uh to development in in the blockchain space um and sort of like smaller applications more more creative applications actually I I think this kind of declarative intent programming is going to make application developer in order of magnitud easier than it is right now uh this is I think like one of the biggest Dev unlocks you

282. 2:39:41

     can possibly we can possibly currently work on which is just when you think of intense your development experience just becomes way better because you don't have to worry about like what specific up codes exist on this on which specific platform the I was going to say maybe we can give like a like a concrete example of like like like for example if you're if you're building a DEX you know like

283. 2:40:04

     an amm today you kind of have to go and do all the work you have to go and Define the curve you have to go and Define like what pools there are right but in a in a more declarative programming setting how would you do this yeah so the way to actually think about this is in a more declarative setting for example using juvix and anoma you just write like I currently have this state and I'm willing to hold this this specific other state given

284. 2:40:28

     some constraints and you really WR like I'm willing to sell my e for Bitcoin if the price is above 4K and the weather in Paris is nice and if the weather in Paris is bad then I'm then I want to hold right and this is literally just what you write down and then solvers sort of take this constraint and then try to do constraint solving which is they take a number of these intents and then they see if I combine them in

285. 2:40:52

     different ways do I get something that effectively goes correct afterwards and if it goes correct then you can settle this as a transaction on chain um when it comes more to application development it starts looking a lot more like what constraints do you care for your program for example in an amm you'd care about some specific curve being a tier 2 but it's not like in a theory we very much write like one + one then set nft equals

286. 2:41:16

     green like you very much like outline the indiv visual compute steps which makes it very complicated to reason about sort of what possible States your program can be in whereas with an intent with a declarative model you just Define like what possible states can my program hold and then like anything that doesn't violate those States is like a correct execution of the program um and this is actually now that we think about that

287. 2:41:39

     intense will revolutionize ZK and I think most of the ZK people don't yet know that they will need intents but like ZK pushes state to the edge of the network and Heights the computer right um and so we don't currently have a good model on these systems for how to like Express for example that I'm willing to trade a for B but privately because like we can only settle fully fledged things

288. 2:42:02

     on chain and so what intents actually allow you to do is you can say I'd like to do this state kind of state transition and no one knows who I am but we just modify the state and this is my starting State this is my ending state so between ZK and intense are smart contracts like going away no smart cont will still exist but more as a verification tool like you just Define what specific things your program cares about and then it verifies it it's

289. 2:42:28

     actually much closer like maybe in the future most smart contracts just become ZK verifiers that I can totally see uh sort of pending some performance constraints yeah makes sense I mean it seems like we've got uh on the one end kind of like today most of the environments are imperative and you have Pro protocols like across and cross plot that are kind of iterating on top of that and like designing some Solutions

290. 2:42:52

     on top of that and then on like the other end of the spectrum you have kind of a Noma where you're building for the declarative future what does the transition period look like and like what do you think of the steps Beyond maybe across Plus on the way to building towards everyone just using the enoma type of approach given that most imperative layer ones are not going away at least the next few months and years um by the way let's start off with I'm a huge fan of across and I use the

291. 2:43:17

     protocol every time I want to move across chain um and sort of like anoma's goal is not to replace or compete with the cross for example it just like if you eventually want to have a much easier time building AC cross like anoma just provides a bunch of like underlying stacks for you to like not have to write a bunch of solidity contracts in order to like make this happen in practice uh this is really the way I think about anoma which

292. 2:43:40

     is it just makes existing paradigms easier to implement it is not there to replace them uh it does not compete with a cross and we s historically saw this like you could build a lot of things on bitcoin um using Bitcoin script but building that was very difficult and the evm in ethereum like didn't sort of replace those systems it just made them easier to build and as a result over time many more people started migrating

293. 2:44:05

     towards sort of the evm approach rather than Bitcoin script approach and I think we'll see the same thing uh with intents that people start migrating more towards the generalized intents because it's just going to be easier to build there yeah I mean I think what I'll say there is from our perspective like it's very much trying to take the most pragmatic approach that is like you know we're entering the world of a thousand rollups and they're proliferating everywhere and there's like an immediate fragmentation problem like we fixed scaling on

294. 2:44:29

     ethereum that's great but we also made the ux like five times worse in the process so like how do we unify that in in the medium term right so that's very much like our intent for now excuse the pun but yeah wait maybe um can I ask a question like there's usually this trade-off we see in Tech where very specific implementations they're specific but they tend to be more efficient and then like very

295. 2:44:52

     general things are more General but they tend to be kind of like slower and less efficient do you see that tradeoff in play in intense as well like between generalized intense networks and um specific imp this is certainly going to be true on the solver side sort of the more structured the more structured you intent can be the easier your life will be as a solver right like you can imagine know you can just write like I currently have this completely opaque State encoded in my own encoding format

296. 2:45:25

     and I'd like to go to a different kind of state complet inod completely differently that's very difficult to solve because a solver doesn't have a lot of structure to go by um so in that sense generalized intents make things slower M unless you start agreeing more on the intent standards like cross dust and like then if everyone just agrees this is what a cross chain um transfer looks like solvers actually have a much easier time um sort of dealing with that kind of structure data yeah and I think

297. 2:45:50

     the structure is key right this is why we created this EIP with Unis Swap and why we're like trying to like push like one unified way of specifying these things um but yeah there's obviously like a bound on how expressive that can be but again just being like pragmatic like users primarily today want to move assets that's what they want to do and applications that need a move state or you like intense systems like maybe in the future will be the right solution but for now that's like still to be defined and maybe like one last thing

298. 2:46:14

     one last thought here which we didn't mention yet which is that solver networks tend to be free open markets right and markets are actually like really really effective at optimizing and making you making problems efficient so we've definitely like seen that in a cross for example as your time to execution has gone down dramtically as the yeah this is a key thing for us right and like also it like AIDS with

299. 2:46:38

     decentralization and permissionless and like antifragility of the system overall right like enabling anyone to be a filler is like a critical component and then you kind of push the complexity to the settlement layer which we didn't really talk about here but that's then like the hard problem is like how do you settle the intents at the end of the day uh on sort of you want to have open

300. 2:46:56

     networks here for solvers I think the really important thing to understand is you should have uh composable solving like if you have an intend from A to B uh this and someone from B to C A solver needs to be able to sort of create a partial solve because otherwise especially with generalizing 10 10 systems you end up in this world which we currently see for the rollups which is one solver and sort of like all the

301. 2:47:20

     rollup interop is Curr effectively proposing well let's just get really single large solvers to like do all the intop between all these different rollups and this because fundamentally no one has thought about how do we do composable solving uh so especially as we move towards generaliz intens we really need to think about using composable or Building Systems that enable composable solving so that we can have many competing solvers that compete in their own niches

302. 2:47:43

     but we can still sort of like compose these Solutions on top of each other awesome well guys unfortunately we are out of time but thank you so much for all those insights and hopefully the developers out there got a lot of thoughts about how they can utilize these systems so please make sure to check out Noma acros and then I'm sure coin fund has funded a lot of these uh protocols as well great thank you guys thank

303. 2:48:29

     amazing awesome stuff um so a key key aspect of chain abstraction um is the Omni Bridge a key piece of infrastructure that's needed to power it I don't know about you guys but you know I keep hearing the term Omni bridge I'm not entirely sure how it works and I'm a little bit embarrassed about it but thankfully for me we have the formidable bow and Wang coming up here to tell us all about how it works so please give a very very warm welcome to

304. 2:49:03

     Bowen hey everyone uh today I want to uh talk a bit more about uh a concept that was introduced in maybe many different talks yesterday uh probably heard of this uh bus word called Omni Bridge being mentioned uh number of times uh and here I just want to do um somewhat technical Deep dive on how things uh work and uh why it would be useful okay so what are some of the problem with Bridges today um I mean to be fair one of the problems there are too many of them uh but more realistically um it's often times not

305. 2:49:42

     very easy to use as a developer you need to understand well there's new bridge and some some new API that I need to integrate um and so on and so forth and also it doesn't um most of the bridges don't actually support uh non-smart contract chains and and usually how it works is that um there may be some smart contract um on the different chains and then you can prove things about other chain uh

306. 2:50:05

     with the um uh with the bridge uh but for non-smart contract chains uh sometimes it doesn't work very well so uh what Omni Bridge wants to do is that it wants to provide a unified interface that developers can can easily integrate with and um and make great experience for the users as a result and we also want to make sure that it can uh work well with uh non-smart contract chains so most notably

307. 2:50:35

     Bitcoin so this is uh kind of a overview of what the the interface looks like uh I think um the I would say the most important part here is uh this Omni transfer which is um so this what what is sh here is basically this crying side is Decay right so it's not um uh it's not smart contract so on basically uh on this CR so the Omni Bridge uh we don't actually introduce any uh new standard per se the sound chain uh rather you as

308. 2:51:08

     developer you can just um uh use this SDK and and and do Omni transfer and it can basically take uh a variety of uh chains or like accounts and different chains as parameters and also in this transfer message basically you just say okay here is my uh account on on some chain and I want to transfer to another chain and this is amount I I want to transfer and this is amount of fee I

309. 2:51:34

     want to pay uh for this transfer and um it basically would just automatically work you can just call this well obviously you need to wait uh for a bit right because uh as we know bridge is not uh instantaneous uh it's asynchronous operation but you just you know call and and wait and then magically will be done uh so looking at example more concretely so let's say you want to transfer from east to to base uh and

310. 2:51:59

     then what you basically just do is that you OB you get your wallet and then you say like okay here is the the address I have and here is how how much tokens I want to transfer and the the recipient address and also the fee I want to pay uh to for this transfer to happen and then you call Omni transfer uh and it's St uh so it's basically a very uh hopefully very easy to understand and

311. 2:52:23

     very easy to use interface um for developers uh so that we can provide a seamless experience for users to move their assets across different chains now obviously this question well how does actually work uh so there are too too much text here but basically I just want to give example of how you trans how you move assets from let's say near to etherum and also move from etherum to near uh so the important thing to note here is that they're not uh asymmetric uh sorry they're not symmetric meaning that the way you do

312. 2:52:53

     transfer from near to uh destination chain is not the same as you do from destination chain to near um so basically from near to to eum for example uh it STS through uh chain signatures uh basically there's token Locker contract on near has a corresponding derivation address onum so that they can sign eum transactions uh well what's what it actually signs is not AUM transaction per se but but it

313. 2:53:16

     gets verified onum and then uh the the contract there can um mean the corresponding tokens uh in the erc20 contract and and conversely when you want to bridge from eum to near uh what you're doing is actually doing uh light crime proof uh so this is similar to uh what what we already have for ringow bridge uh so it's the similar concept and uh for Bitcoins um yeah it's basically the the same thing that uh the way we support Bitcoin is that the the

314. 2:53:47

     contract on near will have a d a address on bitcoin that people can deposit into um and um and then proof can can be verified um then on near corresponding tokens get minted and if one withdraw to bitcoin then because contract has address on bitcoin then it can sign a transaction uh that's that's going to get executed on bitcoin uh obviously it's not going to be very fast um but um

315. 2:54:11

     uh well that's just the withdraw on bitcoin that you have to deal with uh so yeah here um the as as I I was working through the example in um AUM and and Bitcoin I think this a asymmetry is manifested in this uh uh two important components on that underpins bridge uh one is called uh chain signatures you many of you are probably familiar with uh it's this uh ability uh well the chain signatures allow near near smart contracts to have

316. 2:54:45

     derivation addresses on uh many other different blockchains and as a result they can actually sign transactions uh on other blockchains so that uh the the withdrawal is basically you this smart contract actually signed the transaction that can get executed on other chains um so that it's kind of a a bridging which not an actual bridge and um uh because it's all all Native to other chains and and on in the other direction uh we we we basically created this abstraction

317. 2:55:14

     called Omni uh it did this uh abstraction that uh can prove uh transactions on near uh can prove transactions on other chains uh on near so that we can be convinced so smart contracts on near can be convinced of transactions that happen on other chains now obviously there are are many many different ways you can can can do this uh so that's why it is an abstraction um actually depending on the chain that that that that we use uh that we interact with uh the the actual Prov is different uh so this is kind of like a

318. 2:55:46

     router uh let's say uh proofs comes in it would um know from the the address that is transaction and then it route to This Light client that can verify the uh the transaction uh verify the proof uh that some transaction has happened on serum and similarly with speedcoin there's Bitcoin Litecoin that would verify uh the the transaction um but you know Litecoin is not always uh feasible to implement or

319. 2:56:12

     not always the uh the most convenient thing to implement uh if we want to support many many different chains uh so the obni also integrates with other uh message passing protocols like Wormhole uh that would also provide uh this this proofs for uh different different blockchains and finally a important piece here is uh the the relayer right because uh what have we talked about so far are just mostly about smart

320. 2:56:38

     contracts and smart contracts they cannot act uh autonomously so right you you actually need uh someone to submit approves and and Trigger the execution on the other side uh to actually finish uh this moving of assets and um uh uh the relayer is is used to do that and the important thing here is that uh anyone can wrun a relayer it's completely trustless it doesn't introduce uh any point of uh

321. 2:57:02

     centralization um and also in the um if we if we go back uh in the in the API there is actually a fee that you can uh specify to pay for the relayer uh so that uh it's it's not uh uh so that Rel layers are incentivized uh to work uh and um um that obviously is a is you know great uh kind of technical ideas uh but we also are working very hard on bringing them to reality uh we are you know we want to support more and more chains in the future but there are initial set of chains that we want to support uh that'll be near Bitcoin eum

322. 2:57:42

     salana based and arbitrum uh and we hope to launch that uh in q1 2020 5 and then as developers you can uh build on top of that um make it very easy for people to move uh assets uh especially funable tokens uh across those chains um with no hurdles yeah that's a a quick overview of how Omni Bridge works and um yeah thanks everyone for listening thank you very much Bowen it was really helpful to understand you know how the Omni Bridge actually works um but let's take a minute just a step away from all

323. 2:58:49

     the technical talk which I would appreciate as a lawyer and let's talk about Community because as you guys know in crypto Community is absolutely everything so I'm going to hand you over into to the very capable Natasha Hoskins Who is co-founder of the boys club who's going to moderate this next session so please give Natasha a very warm welcome hi everybody um so nice to be here hi I am Natasha Hoskins I am one of the co-founders of boy club boy club is one

324. 2:59:37

     part Community one part media business we talk about emerging technology in the context of culture through podcasts and newsletters and events and a lot of other other fun stuff um we love near so we're excited to be here today um I have a great panel and I'm excited to talk about community so today's session is titled in crypto Community is your only Moote so we're going to be talking a little bit about um that idea we're going to be discussing whether we think that is true um there's so much

325. 3:00:09

     discussion about Community it's a big you know often a buzz word it can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people this conference I think there's been a lot of conversation that is more geared towards code than community so I think it'll be a nice sort of reset for us um to discuss okay so I think starting with some intros would be great do you want to take it off thank you Natasha uh my name is Adam wosy at help Community for overclock Labs the

326. 3:00:34

     creators of the aash network um very briefly aash network is a open- source decentralized Marketplace for cloud compute so CPUs gpus um can all be borrowed from or rented from Individual users instead of having to go to like AWS or Google Cloud um so if you have some spare capacity put it on Theos and then uh people who need access to those resources can go on to aosh and gain access uh generally at a much lower cost and um in a decentralized manner so

327. 3:01:04

     that's me great thank you guys um good to be on the panel with you today I'm Tim Stingin from Zurich Switzerland and I'm the co-founder and CEO of T4 Capital uh what we do is we invest in altcoins so we're in investment Boutique uh helping the Swiss uh trfi guys to to to jump in into the space not an easy job I imagine Swiss Swiss trafi getting into crypto is a very specific kind of dude yeah it's a year-long process um we've started very

328. 3:01:38

     early by educating them first so in the beginning we were a research company and educational company we made like um a lot of sort of a Netflix miniseries for private Banks oh wow and external asset managers so their relationship managers could get more familiar with the topic and then you get a second meeting once you have your foot into the door it's all about it's also a community actually we're just a bit more shy and reserved and you have to gain their trust first

329. 3:02:06

     but within every Community you have to they have to accept you and once you're in uh you just have to be authentic but I think this what what we're going to talk about now how Community establish and how you can feed on it you have to take care of your community whatever it is if it's more Tech orientated people or investor people they all have their different kind of lens on yeah I um I really appreciate that and I think that leads nicely

330. 3:02:32

     into my main idea of what community is is very much centered around my experience at voice Club it's very much about like individual people knowing each other talking to each other hanging out at events or online in Discord um and and but the more that I talk to people I realize that that definition of community can mean a lot of things to a lot of people it's very fluid I think um

331. 3:02:55

     word and especially in crypto when it can um have a lot of sort of financial implications for a lot of communities that impacts the way that people think about it so would love for you both to sort of Define in a few sentences what you think Community is and then if you could bring to life that idea in a very tangible example that would be great yeah for sure so so um I actually feel

332. 3:03:21

     like I'm stealing this uh definition from uh community of community managers called cmx I don't know if you guys are familiar with them um they've been around for a long time I've picked up a lot of my kind of professional Community Building prowess from this organization and they Define community as uh basically a community isn't a community until it can self-organize and manage

333. 3:03:43

     itself so for me what I kind of do day in and day out at a J and in previous roles managing Community was look for ways to enable community members to start to do their own thing um because ultimately the organization that you're a part of the community you're trying to build is going to outgrow what me or a team of community professionals that I manage or work with can do so I'm actively looking for ways to make the community sticky um once it's sticky

334. 3:04:15

     then I start working with individual community members to say say what are the things that you would like to do inside of the community and looking for ways to enable them um I don't like to push things on individuals because the moment you start saying well there's a new requirement if you want to be in this community you have to do this um you're going to be like well why would I

335. 3:04:32

     do that I'm an employee now and that's not fun as just a community person ultimately you have to make sure your community is fun to be a part of because you're not going to want to be a part of it um so for me I go back to the cmx kind of definition where unless you find ways to help your community create models to do things on their own um you're really not building anything that

336. 3:04:55

     is going to be sustainable long term and a good example of that is at aash um we have a kind of an ambassador program called the AOS insiders it's a community of around 50 individuals around the world all doing kind of different things from non-technical to technical individuals and um one of our community members who's not technical uh really love the zely platform um for folks that aren't familiar with Z similar to Galaxy it's kind of like a kind of a quests you

337. 3:05:20

     know thing where it's like sign up to Twitter and get a point and kind of gamifying community building um and Z is like another one of those kind of tools and he presented his case saying hey you know I would like some resources to start building a zely community and I didn't have the bandwidth to do it and I'm the only Community person at AOS so I said hey go for it yeah um he created The Proposal um put it out online for a

338. 3:05:45

     governance vote he got resources from our community pool and now it's been running for the past you know 6 12 months and he's brought on new developers he's brought on new community members and that's all self-organized like I really wasn't involved in any of that so finding ways to like enable individuals that are interested in kind of participating um and giving them the tools to kind of go for it um that's I would say the most

339. 3:06:08

     important thing Tim I want to get to you but one question that I have for you is do you think that um like a financial incentive is required for people to have that motivation and to do the work even though it's fun and even though they're opting into it there's like a fine line and Razor's Edge I think between doing something for the Love of the Game and doing it because there's some incentive

340. 3:06:31

     and I'm curious what you think about that yeah for sure uh I've been doing Community Management community building for a decade now I know I look like I'm 21 I've been doing it for a while and when I started to do like Ambassador programs back in the day in previous roles the first thing I was doing was incentivizing through financial reward and that just pulled in the wrong people yeah so I started creating and I learned from my mistakes so like at aosh when

341. 3:06:58

     people join our insiders program kind of our community ambassador program I fill out an application make sure that it checks out I set up an interview with them we chat I tell them it's volunteer everything is optional there are no requirements But ultimately you can make the community what you want to make it yourself but it's just getting involved and being engaged so I don't like to start off with financial reward or financial gain um I look for individuals

342. 3:07:22

     who are organically doing things that can be beneficial to a cost and then finding ways to um support those individual efforts um sometimes through swag sometimes through you know Financial rewards but I do not recommend anyone starts off with financial gain um look for people that are contributing organically and then creating a framework around how you can support what they're doing and rewarding accordingly nice um okay Tim could you define what your idea of definition or

343. 3:07:53

     of community is and then maybe bring that type yes so I also like um I landed part of my response also from people I trust and I I talked to some of our community members as well or one of our analysts who analyzes Community which we're talking later what are the metrics to look at but uh I would say there's three very important things uh one is something that you've mentioned but the first one I'd start with is

344. 3:08:18

     like-mindedness I think a community needs like-mindedness because as he said everything is voluntarily in a way uh people should not be forced in but voluntarily pulled into the community and what I see a common denominator that a lot of powerful communities share is not in a mean way but in a in a chokey way like in a meme way a a a common enemy like for example what we crypto guys or especially the teis uh among you what what what you like is to have this

345. 3:08:49

     common enemy which in that sense is Big Tech or can be Wall Street for example if I talk to defi communities their common enemy and this is this this poers dis like-mindedness is they don't like Wall Street and they want to build something decentralized with Akash I think the common denominator is get away from AWS right do it decentral do it in a more inclusive meaningful way so

346. 3:09:13

     that's the one thing like-mindedness the the second thing is what you tapped in already it's authenticity people should be in the community because they like what the community stands for and not for financial incentivization so people uh I try not to stick my head too strong into communities because they know I'm an investor and as an investor you always have to be careful because it's not that you're not welcomed in communities but of course and that's honest because I

347. 3:09:44

     represent portfolios of clients so my main interest is that the price of the token goes up but get me right this should not be the main reason why people get into crypto it should because they believe in a project and its future and capabilities to transform a market so I'm an outside observant um so it has to be authentic so it should not have too many people like me into the community and the third point is um what I hear a lot in

348. 3:10:15

     powerful like uh inspirational speeches where they say uh you need a very strong why because if a community has this very strong why the how is easy so um for examp if you look at Elon Musk he has a very strong why when he um builds something when he bought Twitter and made X out of it the why is very clear if we as Humanity lose Free Speech then uh we have a big problem so about so the why is we we need a communication platform where Free Speech can be maintained and that why is so powerful

349. 3:10:49

     that I believe that he will attract the right people very strong talents that work for X now we got an Elon stand on our hands yes and there's so many community members joining X I mean the the usage of of X has never been as high as as of today so I think what the community there stands for is a very strong why and also near stands for a very strong why and that's user owned AI

350. 3:11:16

     um so yeah those are the three things nice um I love those so you're an investor you're thinking about tokens and communities all the time um could you talk a little bit about how you're analyzing those communities and what you look for red flags green flags things that you see that are unique to specific communities that make you compelled to get involved as an investor yeah of course so there's a I would say our

351. 3:11:40

     approach is twofold one is purely quantitative where we look at data um this is very powerful in a sense that we don't have to believe what projects tell us we can look into the data if it's true like if you look at wallet usages if you look at Twitter followers or whatever sorts of metrics but it's just half of the picture uh the other side is more emotional where you have to feel

352. 3:12:05

     into the community which um you do by attending conferences like this one where you can see especially if you go on those if you visit conferences year over year yeah you can sense if the community is growing so I mean it sounds very obvious but what a community needs over time is to grow and to M to sustain because especially in a world of crypto where I see a lot a potential of a zero

353. 3:12:30

     sum game at the end where you have X amount of communities attracting the followers from each other and you you really have to have a unique community and that uniqueness we look at by the factors I mentioned in the beginning those three factors are very important but also Community has to be adaptive and patient so when it comes to adaptiveness uh near is a very good example today AI has is the most important Talk of the Town and near

354. 3:13:02

     knows how to adapt to that of course uh near is in a lucky position because the founders are like native AI people that also got into blockchain very early on so they know Best of Both Worlds which positions them very well I think as an ecosystem but yeah what the community also needs is patience so if you want to learn what patience is as a crypto holder you need to talk to someone from the cardano ecosystem and because those are the ones that have to be patient the most and

355. 3:13:34

     maybe it plays out for them but there are really community members like the cardano people for example for me it's striking when I talk to them even if for years not much is happening um they're still very much into this community so high conviction is also important to maintain a the beliefs within a community because once in a community you you you sense that the core belief

356. 3:13:58

     starts to fade away we're such a fast um moving environment that communities can dismantle within days one thing that you said I'm curious for you to expand on um do you think that crypto is a zero some game is that what you were saying that there's going to be like one one chain One winner is that what you were speaking to or did I misunderstand that point I would say you have X amount of

357. 3:14:22

     users in crypto and you have an x amount of communities and platforms where those users can be distributed to MH um I believe as Elio said yesterday I believe in not in a zero sum game but eventually in protocols that are unique and are contributing to the as a whole right yeah so I do believe that every um long sustaining project which are a few so I think there will be maybe two to 3% out there of the projects right

358. 3:14:55

     now in 5 to 10 years and but two to three percentage that remain and actually build a part of the puzzle for the greater picture um they will benefit and it's not in that sense a zero sum game but in between like a consolidation com yeah you will see a consolid consolidation for sure I believe it's going to be similar to big Tech I mean when we saw the internet bubble there were so many companies trying to build something on the Internet and now we have this um blockchain AI movement since years going on and so many people

359. 3:15:27

     have already tried to tap into it some are very successful some are starting now in this very second so you will always have these Market movements I think that's just what free markets is all about especially in a decentralized world um yeah I I can I can definitely see that I want to Pivot to community and decentralization because I think uh it's a big part of something that I think a lot about with community and I'm

360. 3:15:51

     sure you Adam are thinking about as well where the core values the thing that brings a lot of people to the crypto Community as a whole is this deep conviction around the belief of decentralization and a common enemy and a way uh and a conviction around that that is a better future a more distributed internet um and that's a beautiful future it's something I'm really compelled by but balancing that against um building an actual brand building something that has a clear

361. 3:16:23

     identity can be really challenging those two things can sort of be in conflict with one another oftentimes and so I'm curious how you guys are approaching that what your experience has been and sort of balancing the values of decentral decentralization and wanting to see like actual real people take ideas and do the thing um while still protecting the values of your brand individually I'm curious how you PR that

362. 3:16:46

     yeah for sure so I feel like I'm in a fairly fortunate position at overclock Labs um because AOS is fully open source it's we're essentially just another voice in the opinion buckets of what people want AOS to become um we Sherpa a lot of it of course but ultimately it's a community effort to make AOS work without I I say without what we've built on the community side there would be Kos wouldn't be at the level it is today um and I would say a leader in the deepin

363. 3:17:18

     space um so for us what's that I would agree I like this guy nice nice um so one of the things that we're doing at AOS is we have um I mentioned one of the community programs the Insiders program these are Community ambassadors around the world that contribute to the Akash ecosystem um they can pitch things they want to do but they can also contribute to Frameworks that I've kind of developed to push AOS forward um from

364. 3:17:44

     hosting events in their region to um Business Development um opportunities working with clients um working with users trying to get them onto AOS helping them handholding them all the way from not doing anything to fully onboarded um to uh Community Support um so all these things that are really beneficial to the ecosystem but we also have these groups called special interest groups and working groups um it's actually we kind of took uh

365. 3:18:08

     kubernetes model they've done this with their open source Community where we've set up all these different um groups around you know client EOS system Community um uh provider Network validators and we have monthly calls where we invite the community in to say like what do we want to focus on this month and then people raise their hands say I want to get involved or how can I contribute so really it is a community

366. 3:18:33

     effort at a cost to kind of move it forward um so I feel like we are essentially a DA but we're not a DA so that's kind of a nice place to be in yeah um so yeah I think that's kind of how we work it um that that makes a lot of sense I think one of you mind if I ask him a question for something he previously said um when you said there's no rules of entering into your community

367. 3:18:57

     isn't there a threat that you have people in your community that are I wouldn't say not qualified but detrimental detrimental to it yeah so um it's something we're very you know cognizant of um so with our special interest groups that I mentioned that is something that it's public anyone can join right now if you just go to os.

368. 3:19:17

     network you can check out all the different groups you can contribute to and get involved in so we keep an eye on like people that are trying to like game the system because people can put out anyone can put out a governance proposal to get uh funds from the community pool yeah um to do things but that has to go through a governance vote and if the community doesn't vote for it they're not going to get funded so Community does a lot of like the governing which is also nice on the Insiders program the

369. 3:19:42

     ambassador program that I kind of manage um it is a vetting process you know people put an application I review the application I'm like this person seems legit I'll set up a 30-minute interview call with them from there I actually introduce them to an OG like Community member and say hey set up a call get to know these guys and if everything checks out we bring them in because it is optional volunteers if somebody would be in and luckily it hasn't happened that is like detrimental to the community I

370. 3:20:05

     can easily say you're sorry you're not being very fun you're out of here um and luckily that hasn't happened yet but we do have these guard rails in place and on top of that we also have Community guidelines like our Discord like don't do this you can do this so we do have you know a framework around kind of um the rules of the road but um but yeah I mean anyone can join everyone here should join so um I want to talk a

371. 3:20:29

     little bit about the premise that was set forward in this uh discussion around sort of community being the only moat that there's token fueled opportunism this idea I think that people discuss a lot in crypto of like Miss Aries versus mercenaries and I'm would love to hear from both of you how you balance those things you as you evaluate them you as you nurture a community and are in the this industry I think it's a necessary

372. 3:21:01

     evil of crypto I mean maybe evil is too strong of a world word but it's it's a necessary part it's a differentiator from all these other um Innovations and so how are you guys thinking about that and how often does it come up for you in I'm sure in conversations every day for you and I wonder how often you guys are thinking about it yeah I mean I can start and maybe give you again sort of a

373. 3:21:25

     different perspective because um what we're we represent client interests and their interest is to invest into a new technology in a way they feel comfortable with and the clients I'm facing um the the first step is or the first barrier is to make them understand what blockchain and AI is all about because they haven't used it most of their our client Bas is is 40 and up and most of our relationship managers that represent other clients in the end have clients 60 70 and up so just the first

374. 3:21:59

     thing is to educate them right and then of course as an investor and now that's investor perspective again but without a token price and a token price that would go up um a lot of the capital that starts with VC but then on the floating Market um with buyers and sellers or if this trading wouldn't happen I mean if there wouldn't be Traders people that are in incentivized for Price gains and stuff then nothing in here would be possible right number has to go up so

375. 3:22:29

     it's it's as it's as you said it's like it has to be in a balance right um what we do uh we have one fund spe specifically focused on web free gaming and gaming is a good example of where you can ruin games with too much blockchain features um especially if if you have a game which is not fun to play of course it will not succeed but there are actually good titles who overstress the focus on

376. 3:23:01

     tokenomics or whatsoever and they annoy the community a lot because Community Gamers and that's I hope it doesn't change are in for the games right and not for profits it's nice to have Smart contract based tournaments if you're good you can monetize your skills I do believe that should exist in the world so Gamers not just by ea uh by um um advertisement and but they have an own

377. 3:23:27

     other form of monetization through gaming through nfts so in-game assets they own which they can sell later on I think there it's it's a balance of those two blockchain is a very powerful tool but uh it should be a backend tool for people's um gaming Journey or whatever industry it is it should be a back second tool that um makes your experience better but it shouldn't be like stressed too much on on tokenomics or yeah incentivization mechanisms yeah and I can go I think we're running about

378. 3:23:58

     time so very quickly um we don't ignore retail know I'm watching that um we don't ignore retail but we're enabling other community members to engage with the retail audience because ultimately if AOS isn't growing through Network usage deployments new providers on the network um then there it's there's no point in retail being interested in us yeah so I focus on developers that are

379. 3:24:24

     interested in actually deploying onto the aash network and that essentially appeases the retail audience which is essentially managed by other community members so that's kind of how we approach it nice well thank you so much give it I give a hand to our um panelist here thank you everybody hey thank you great that thank you Natasha Tim and Adam that was a great deep dive into what community actually means um with the US election

380. 3:25:15

     result this week there's been a a lot of talk about a potential defi Renaissance and which makes this next session very timely we're going to be talking about how chain abstraction will power this Cycle's defi Blue Chips and we'll have um my good friend and colleague Mark me um who is the head of um head of can't even remember the title's too long head of partner development VC and

381. 3:25:38

     Backer relations man we got to work on a shorter job title Mark please he's going to be moderating this session so please give a very warm welcome to mark hello thank you thank you hello everyone can you guys all hear me yes all right cool mic's working welcome well we have a uh very exciting day time today right talking about how chain abstraction will power this Cycle's blue uh D5 Blue Chips and want

382. 3:26:26

     to welcome you know three great um speakers here from very worldly kind of VC funds and maybe we'll start off with some intros first uh we'll have connley hi everybody my name is Colton uh I'm a principle at Arrington Capital we're a web 3 Venture fund and hedge funds uh been around since 2018 we are investors in near um from the early days and uh really excited about everything they're working on with chain abstraction and uh moving D5

383. 3:26:57

     forward awesome thank you Richard hi folks uh Richard Mard from uh fabric Ventures um I'm a co-founder and managing partner there um we've been uh operating in the what we call the open web space so specialized compute um Sovereign self sovereignty and AI since about 2012 actually and uh I've been also on the the near Foundation Council for more than 5 years now so I'm kind of bag holder and you know got responsibilities uh uh to boot

384. 3:27:29

     excited to be here apparently there's uh 31 um thousand people online watching which is fantastic um I hope that's not measured in the same way in which tvl is is measured all right James hello everyone uh James W founder and a CEO of DFG so we we are a a billion dollar investment firm uh in the industry for the last 10 years uh we've been ear investing into a few protocols like Bitcoin e and near as well so we be excited about the future of near and keep supporting the ecosystem awesome thank you for that

385. 3:28:01

     hello everyone my name is Mark me I'm the head of partner development VC and investment relations here at near Foundation um and really today really want to talk about chain of exraction and Defi and if you guys were live watching yesterday kind of the uh I think demo described them as the near ecosystems Avengers uh highlighting kind of what went live with the intents and chain abstraction I I think it's really exciting kind of interesting what it

386. 3:28:27

     could bring about so first question for the panel is really to see what's your guys's view on the current stage of chain abstraction and what would you guys be most interested in you know whether it's from a fund perspective or maybe from a personal perspective um and excited about that so why don't we start off with uh James yeah I think this is still ear stage for for Trans production so the point is

387. 3:28:52

     like we have a lot of new users com into space right so non crypto people com into their crypto space But first you know they just download the wallet Now using their you know using the token using probably one chain and one app so in that case we probably don't need chain abstraction because you you can do that you know you probably use You Know download metam mask and uh kind of just un need unit swap for trading that's

388. 3:29:16

     easy but once you know you have more users kind digging into further into the crypto ecosystem you will see that it's aely hard for you to use kind of multiple chain and use multiple app it doesn't make a lot of sense for for for user to download like a 10 different you know uh wallet or 10 different kind of app you know using that to each wallet that's makes it extremely hard so I think that's how uh change obstruction come into place so I mean we are still

389. 3:29:45

     uh at relatively early stage for for kind of solving the problem and I think this is extremely important because you know there are there are two ways basically to um to improve our industry the first is you know as I said is bring the users kind of outside uh crypto space into the crypto space which you know Bitcoin ETF is ETF is doing great job about onboarding more people but more importantly is letting the people

390. 3:30:10

     in the industry use using kind of more than uh uh um one protocol or one app so it's more about like a you know turning a like a single Chan users to a m Chan user single app user to a m Chan uh users then you know that's how why you know chain obstruction become much more important I think we still have lot of uh you know room for the CH projection to to make Improvement make you know

391. 3:30:34

     everyone is extremely easy to actually using multiple dep on on multiple chain okay so I highlighting the point is more first getting more users on and two is really improving their user experience so they can actually do stuff across all the ecosystems things like that right Richard yeah so in some senses chain abstraction uh is one of those capabilities that is um just uh extremely necessary and kind of obvious that we we need and so and I think we'll look back to some degree and wonder what we were all doing for 10 years uh

392. 3:31:08

     without it um um but that being said I don't think it will be a a damp squib at all I think that um we've seen several examples whether it be sweat or Cosmos so I was looking at a ticking example just now of the potential to onboard folks who existing customer bases um and to segue them into the web3 world once we have a a user experience that is acceptable to folks who really do not care um uh whether they're using web 3

393. 3:31:40

     at all let alone which chain they're using um uh but what they do care about um whatever if is a a service where they can um you know operate within a say secondary ticket Market where scalping is not taking place and they're kind of uh like to take a UK example where they don't have to pay over the odds for their Oasis ticket which just got launched recently and and caused a lot of kind of controversy they care about that value and so the usabil has uh has

394. 3:32:08

     got to be there to support that um I think and maybe we'll come back to it in kind of more in a detail um uh afterwards because you know I agree with you know James has covered comprehensively a lot of the kind of the core advantages but I do think that there will be some applications we can imagine now that were just not possible before you had chain abstraction uh for example a core one might be if I have assets across multiple chains uh maybe that I'm even staking there different

395. 3:32:40

     sort of sort of slashing um conditions applying to them that I might be be able to kind of pull all of those uh into one aggregated um asset base and then borrow against it you you know hypothecate it um an app that allowed you to do that on a continuous basis and you know maybe advised you the best way to do that as well from a you know which you know uh lending protocol to use to optimize

396. 3:33:05

     yield for example that would be really fascinating and and if you could do that in a way that was web too digestible uh I think you'd uh start moving us towards the mainstream billions that we're all targeting so I kind of love that point you know you sounds like Richard has been within the near ecosystem for a while because he highlighted multiple points where I think we have really driven home in terms of I guess easy on boarding and really focus on identifying

397. 3:33:30

     users that don't really know they're even in web 3 right and so I I think that's the core you know learning per se of of you know going through let's say doing BD and web 3 for the last two three years and and and highlighting those factors right and so we'll go to Colton and see I guess what's your take do you have anything you know different you want to present or kind of what yeah what do you got yeah I I think my

398. 3:33:54

     opinion on this is that it's all about the user experience in ux and that's what chain abstraction is really going to revolutionize if you think about where crypto was just a couple years ago we were still trying to build cheaper more efficient block space and that's why near originally was so popular especially among investors because of the innovation of sharding and uh being able to have a blockchain that

399. 3:34:18

     scales so efficiently um now we have basically commoditized that block space so you're not going to differentiate yourself as much by just offering cheap fast block space to people instead you're going to differentiate Yourself by offering access to interesting applications that people want to use and if you're an application I think the chain abstraction is the best thing that's going to happen for the application layer specifically because you're going to have us who previously they wouldn't have wanted to jump

400. 3:34:48

     through a bunch of Hoops and have to do like 10 clicks and a whole research project in order to figure out how to actually onboard onto your app let alone use it instead you can have all of this in a unified experience somewhere in a wallet that somebody makes it really easy to onboard with where maybe you don't even need to be managing your private keys and you could be signing with you know an a an application that's built on some different sign like

401. 3:35:11

     signature curve so I think that there's a lot of really cool that are going to come out of this and it'll be the best thing ever for actually getting users into those applications um and so I that's why I'm really excited about what n's working on with their chain abstraction solution is because they could basically be you know that funnel that then gives access to all of this other block space elsewhere um so

402. 3:35:35

     regardless of where the liquidity is at I don't think it really matters that um you you know get unified liquidity once you have chain abstraction uh it makes the user experience very easy and then you eventually get to the point where you don't even realize that you're using web 3 and you can put it in an iPhone app and it looks the same and feels the same as if you were using Robin Hood or

403. 3:35:57

     something like that so so I think user experience has always something that's been really brought up and that's why you see so much infra that's been invested in by VCS like yourself to really see how we can onboard more users to this point right and I think that's something that you know we have concluded that you know we definitely need to improve on and and really add more value too right can I try like a

404. 3:36:20

     different take take on that like we can all agree vigorously about the importance of the user experience and how this is just necessary to get to the next level but actually there's another argument that do we really care about the user so I I think there's one argument that in particular and this is relevant to redacted and to you know n's mission to deliver on you know a chain that's eminently suitable for AI and and

405. 3:36:44

     to deliver on you know user AI is that the user part of the web human web is going to be microscopic in comparison to the machine web you know the agentic sort of you know part of part of the web and um and I kind of lend on a few people to ask some of of things that might be uh you know new things that are possible in this sort of new chain signatures environment or chain abstraction environment and one would be um ensuring that you have um sense of

406. 3:37:15

     res resistant you know verifiable um agents within you know this environment on chain um using CH uh chain abstraction chain signes in particular um and if you think about it if we're going to um and it's just sort of kind of a side point I stumbled into this thing I don't think I've actually used it on stage before but I've mentioned a couple of people people talk at different rates but the average human communicates at 40 bets per second um you know the you know obviously the

407. 3:37:47

     machine web is going to be you know many thousands of orders of magnitude faster than that so just to give an idea of how how different going to be to to people trying to envisage what this is going to look like and I think that's what we're building towards and I think in particular the intersection of AI and web 3 is about that machine web so having an environment that is trustless or rather you can trust the agents to be

408. 3:38:10

     doing what you think they're going to be doing is going to be absolutely crucial so I think that's an interesting one as well so so I wanted to highlight yeah so I mean that's kind of crucial in this topic as well because we're highlighting kind of the defi aspect and how maybe those agents how Chanel exraction all kind of runs into that and I'm sure we're all familiar with the current

409. 3:38:28

     landscape of the dii applications and kind of where that goes so I would love to talk a little bit more on that point too on James what's your take on the current D5 side what do you see you know would be more interesting next because I think the Playbook that we've seen currently has been just you know rinse and repeat and not as exciting right so yeah I I think defa have a very very good future I mean if you take just take a look at data right now we have about

410. 3:38:52

     like a 100 billion uh in TV uh but at a peak of 20 21st we have 180 so if we going to hit hit a new all-time high it probably going to go their tvl to another 80% which is a lot so I I I believe we will uh see the alltime high in uh for the TV uh in this cycle um the other good things it's it's probably more like it's it's a little bit non- crypto things I think Trump get elected as the President of United States and she fully supporting uh self custody I

411. 3:39:27

     think this is actually very very important for the uh infrastructure for for for for defi because as some stage in the past few years we discussed about maybe the potential kycs for people to using like dangas apps which I believe will be a bading for for this kind of you know because you basically limited people's rights to using that but right now I think with all you know policy being very friendly and you know the president of US supporting self custody

412. 3:39:58

     I think defi do have very very you know uh Futures you know and have a solid foundation from outside because they give you a very good environment to grow and on the other things we will have you know still new application in the defi space to come for example e you know in this circle doing pretty good good you know so it's not like we are all relying on the you know the pr like uh you know app like Dex Landing protocols but we are seeing new new kind of application

413. 3:40:27

     coming to space on the defi space so I think this is also a good things that we will see both Innovation and on the on on the Poli policy side so I I personally I think def5 will probably see a very very good good a very important grow in the future uh we have probably three only application exceed like a 10 billion TV right now uh including Lio uh RV any the other one I forget but you know I think we should have probably at least probably unit Swap and a few others here like 1010 billion dollar tvl to to in in the next

414. 3:41:02

     few months so this is actually my uh my my take on the def5 space right now I'm very very poish on it okay Colton yeah what's your take in terms of I guess how maybe chain oftion can change it or innovate it you know come up with the new applications that you know James kind of highlighted did you have any view on what might be exciting for you yeah I I think that ultimately the my opinion is still that

415. 3:41:26

     chain abstraction is more of an access point to these apps rather than it's going to create a ton of like novel Primitives I think that maybe you could end up creating an application if it doesn't require on having if it doesn't rely on having a bunch of liquidity in one spot you could take Primitives and make the multi-chain much more easily uh but ultimately you're not going to invent like a new way to trade because

416. 3:41:50

     of chain abstraction you're going to invent a new way of getting people to access that trading experience through chain abstraction and wrapping it in something nice that people can actually understand and I think that user experience point is a massive point of friction like I try and get my dad to use Defi and he was actually the one who originally got me interested in Bitcoin back when I was in high school uh but

417. 3:42:14

     he'd only ever used a c Iz exchange before and um it like it he's a a really smart guy but it took him a long time to of like walking through with me like how to set up like your wallet what to sign like all the safety things you have to look out for what not to be signing and if you had an application that just said here's a set of intents that are going to basically Define the boundaries of

418. 3:42:38

     what your accounts can do and or it's going to set up a set of objectives you just have to review that and then you click and then all of a sudden that's deployed into this custombuilt strategy that you chose that's a much easier way I think to interact with these def applications than all right I need to swap token a for token B so I can deploy that into this protocol and then I borrow and then I Loop like 10 times and

419. 3:43:02

     I spend 30 minutes like clicking through uh and then I have to move that to another chain where there's another app that I want to use like chain abstraction gets rid of all of that workflow it's a um so it's a real life game clicking buttons right guys I mean that that that's how you make money in this world apparently um so Mark I'm going to have to respectfully disagree and push back again I think we keep on sort of focusing our attention on just the user experience and talking about it

420. 3:43:26

     for humans and even saying that we don't think um there are going to be new ways of trading um I think and we had we touched upon it a little bit of this in kind of preparation I think we're underestimating you know the kind of Core Power of the kind of should we say the web three movement is to is to be able to create marketplaces for different assets including you know possibly data assets and nonf fundable

421. 3:43:49

     assets um and at the moment you know we've struggled even for example on Native nonf fundable assets to to create the liquidity that we need I think we're underestimating the the the power that that you know reaching a certain threshold of liquidity has in terms of things like price Discovery and people's comfort with using those you know trading within those markets and therefore uh in that given Market coming up with new trading strategies because

422. 3:44:13

     there's be something esoteric about that there'll be data relating to that market that is going to be different that means there are new trading strategies because they're different assets um and so I think again getting pre we're looking at our feet and not and missing the kind of the broader opportunity the you know the couple of hundred billion kind of of assets we've currently native digital assets currently got on chain is microscopic like maybe it's what of less

423. 3:44:39

     than a thousandth percent of all of the assets around the world commonly called in our amusingly in our space called real world assets you know they just the Assets in the world and and so I think the opportunity to tap into those where they're often nonf funable um and therefore liquidity I would argue out getting to better liquidity because you can aggregate it and pull it using chain abstraction is going to be a really powerful Catalyst I'm not dismissing the fact that better

424. 3:45:11

     UI for that and better ways of kind of onboarding the assets and toiz is important and better regulation but it's going to be I think a really important Catalyst yeah can I can I respond to that yeah yeah yeah so I think you know you made this point that right now there's you know 200 billion or something of liquidity on chain which is microscopic compared to to what's out there but if you're arguing that you need chain abstraction so you can

425. 3:45:35

     aggregate that 200 billion that's already microscopic I don't think that really gets you anywhere the real issue is you need all of the other trillions of assets that are out there to be brought on and so if you're arguing that chain abstraction is going to aggregate liquidity from other chains but it's aggregating this microscopic puddle then that's actually not solving the problem I've not I've not communicated what I'm saying properly then what I'm saying is

426. 3:45:58

     that we don't know H how which networks and which chains are going to bring the real bu assets on chain but most likely it's not going to be one chain that does that it's going to be lot you know this we're going to still exist in a multi-chain world because there's reason for that specialization and there'll be a particular capability and out belt you know whether it's be real estate or Forex or whatever we already see that obviously and so therefore they will be

427. 3:46:21

     brought on board but then we can aggregate them between different chains and different players because we got chain abstraction the argument is basically that you're future proofing all of these chains so no matter where the growth happens we're ready for it correct you're kind of putting it together we're we're we're catalyzing the growth because we're ready for it across many different chains exactly yeah I think that makes more sense yeah yeah me it was my fault

428. 3:46:46

     I mean I I didn't see that you guys were you know on opposite sides I think you guys were more talking about two different points right and and at the end of the day you know I think all of us clearly agree that we do need more assets on chain and from there how do we ensure that they're in in order for there to be more assets on chain we need to find a way to make it easier for everyone to access everyone to use and even transferring it across different boards right and so we're kind of running up on time with our last three

429. 3:47:11

     minutes here would love to see or ask I guess what would you guys like to see within chain abstraction maybe being live or that users could use and that could really bring on the large volumes that you guys speak of here um we'll start with James yeah I se the uh the super app you know when near there is extremely good I think there's lot of uh things has to be improved you know uh on different wallet I mean when I use the ne wallet I feel like you know what as M

430. 3:47:43

     base and others I think that's have very good user experience so for people extremely new to the industry I I feel like giving them the best user experience is I think do the most important thing for them to using multiple app you know for you know people are just I'm I'm not criticized but just people are getting too lazy about doing things you know if I ask me to download another app You Know

431. 3:48:08

     download another you know wallet maybe I'm refuse to that just because I'm lazy they I'm not using that but okay them the best user experience to solve the problem I think near is extremely good on this and I feel like next year we be a very very important years for near TR abstraction become probably you know the I mean could be the highlight of the of the market don't get me wrong I'm the

432. 3:48:34

     pretty big fan of AI I'm kind of a maxi I know what near does in as space is impressive about the ecosystem but I really do think champ production on near next year is going to be a super important things and that could be a more realistic or more feasible things to to achieve next year for New Year and this could be the highlight for the new year and for the ecosystem I mean that's a great point I I just want to add because I know we have about 40 seconds left for everyone but chain abstraction is easier the kind of the step Zone to

433. 3:49:08

     kind of what Richard highlighted earlier in terms of having millions of Ali agents to really transact and it's not just swapping and transa you know but it's more transacting whether it might be real world Goods helping you buy e-commerce helping you pay for things like that's the whole you know stepping stone of how chain abstraction will lead to that and it's not separate it's not two different verticals it's not two different things it actually is all aligned with a long-term Vision so uh 40

434. 3:49:32

     seconds Richard yeah so I'm going to stick to my guns and pick in particular real estate as you know real world asset um you know very big differences between different markets you know hurricane risk in London the same as you know Florida um and I from personal experience it's like such a it's a broken market in terms of information you you know at the moment because it's not on chain because you can't trust it the rest of it and it's all siloed in a horrible horrible way if we could catalyze getting that you know on chain

435. 3:50:00

     I think that would be good um and and I think you know as I said that Taps into one of the the real superpowers of of the space to bring more radically perfect Market to bear on the world and I was trying to take an opposite position here I what I was just taking Lea out of Michael Aron's book from history all right uh well I think in that example where we're bringing all these real world assets on chain which I do think will accelerate a ton now that

436. 3:50:26

     we're going to see an Administration that's much more friendly from a regulatory perspective like we could actually have this happen I would love to see those real estate assets be brought into the defi ecosystem and I think that'd be really value additive to crypto as a whole because that's where like this big liquidity influx is coming from that you're talking about and uh once we're able to unlock that people are able to start borrowing against it trading it more freely uh I think we're

437. 3:50:52

     really going to see an explosion of activity without having to talk to the bank without having to talk to the bank or have any sort of the point we need more activity guys we need more things to do so thank you everyone for your time I think we're out of time here but I hope you guys enjoyed our discussion and thank you everyone here on the panel yeah thank everyone thank cool so great to hear about how chain abstraction is going to revolutionize um defi we're going to head for a quick 15minute break so

438. 3:51:33

     please go ahead and grab some coffee get some cake go to the Zen Zone and get yourself another massage um but please do be back here for 255 we're going to be um joining a fireside chat with the excellent Christopher Donovan and Michael Casey about decentralized AI so don't go too far right

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448. 4:06:15

     it woo all right that's that's a nice video isn't it I wonder either

449. 4:07:31

     you didn't know I could sing well now you do all right um there's only a few hours left of redacted unfortunately um I know I know I know it's okay guys will be uh somewhere next year I'm sure um so we are going to pick up the energy a little bit we've got I think that these are tows so if you raise your hands in the air and I'm going to try I'm going to try goodness goodness me what I've got a I've got a I was going to say I've got a girls a girls thrower but you're know how to say that anymore

450. 4:08:07

     right oh that was your fault you didn't catch it um all right now we have next up uh two wonderful speakers um I'm from the north of England so to me they've got funny accents uh so please give a big round of applause for a fireside chat it's near Chris Donovan on decentralized AI alongside the wonderful Michael casy so put your hands together okay hello hi everyone uh good to see you all um so I'm Michael Casey I'm the

451. 4:08:53

     uh the chairman of the decentralized AI Society otherwise know as de but last time we chatted I had a different hat on he did was a coindesk so I'm the one that's having a d you're the more stable figure in this right now which is weird weird it is weird that's not the way it tends to roll um uh certainly not in the blockchain space but yeah met in neon uh in Lisbon uh had a really good conversation then about

452. 4:09:16

     the the dangers of the web 2 system for society and therefore the need to uh move to an open web MH and of course AI was a big part of that conversation and and earlier at that event was really sort of outlining the AI vision for near at the time but I feel even in that short period of time we're now at a point where the AI element of that conversation has been elevated to an even higher degree of importance absolutely and I think we probably chatted then about how dangerous it is

453. 4:09:49

     that we would take this closed you know situation where the data and the models and everything else are owned by these large Platforms in the web 2 era pushing into the AI era and taking on steroids and how dangerous that would that be yeah um so here we are it it's moving faster um why is this important let's let's listen just dig into that like why is it so important that we decentralize AI sure I mean and as a side not we do a lot of these Far Side chats together

454. 4:10:20

     next one we should try and do actually in front of an actual fire oh right we can maybe fire fronting fire yeah we didn't fire I we can do one in Switzerland or something you guys in the um so yeah so why is it so important I mean I think we you know a lot of folks who have been interested in or following web 3 understand that you know there is a a vision for recasting the incentive models that drive the the platforms that

455. 4:10:50

     we use every single day in our you know in our lives um and you know this is the web to um set of innovations that have transformed everything that we do they touch every aspect of our lives and they're really good at at providing the the services and the experiences that we've become very used to and have kind of embedded themselves you know literally in everything that we do how we how we meet people how we form relationships how we transact how we

456. 4:11:15

     work all of this kind of stuff right and the fundamental incentive model that dominates the way that those platforms have been set up is you know they are generally speaking they are you know stakeholder companies right they they're run by businesses that have investors the objective of those businesses is to make money right and return money to their stakeholders um and the way the model that they have you know um focused

457. 4:11:41

     on and realized is extremely effective Ive is they monetize our attention so they say look we need to capture as many eyeballs as possible in order to generate profit that we can return to our investors and that is the the sole motivation and the sole economic driver that informs decision makings and how these platforms are developed and how they have have been growing over time and because these things are some of the biggest platforms the most valuable

458. 4:12:07

     platforms the biggest companies in the history of of humanity they've gotten really good at capturing AR right in ways that most of us aren't even aware of right they have they have teams of psychologists and neurologists and they figure out the best combination of colors and lights and sounds to capture our attention and because all they care about is attention they're not optimizing for for example things like what are the best outcomes for the users

459. 4:12:31

     what are we ensure doing to ensure that we're you know trying to get the most I don't know truthful content what are we doing to create uh platforms that allow for informed and effective debate you know no we don't want any of that we want things that capture the most attention and that tends to be things that are controversial that tends to be things that maybe aren't true because they're

460. 4:12:52

     controversial um and as a result the the kind of the consequences of this model and again it's not necessarily maub valan I'm not saying that people are setting out to destroy the planet or to to create uh you know friction and polarization in our social and political discourse or to create wealth inequality all of these types of things but it's an inevitable consequence when you have these platforms that are set up with

461. 4:13:15

     that attention capturing profit generating motive in mind um and if we aren't careful and we don't do something to try and transform that Dynamic and give people a better alternative and a new type of incentive model um to reset that that state then actually the capture and control will continue to happen we will continue to lose our autonomy and honestly our dignity in our digital lives and really you know the digital component of of what we are doing is is is going to continue to get

462. 4:13:47

     bigger and bigger and as we talked about when you think about the dominant AI platforms currently and you're right A lot has changed even since last year when we were sitting down and talking about this these platforms are are growing incredibly fast they're incredibly powerful magical for people to use and indeed can create really incredible experiences but they're driven by that same model right that

463. 4:14:11

     same incentive framework where they're wanting to capture attention capture information and you know the users are effectively the product right but we we kind of um were duped uh if you like collectively uh as a society into that role and then even as we've become I think far more aware as a society of these problems it is still proving very difficult to convince people of the value of that right and so I was thinking you know that we've got this agentic age we're talking about the

464. 4:14:43

     agents are coming and uh I've seen some people refer okay are we going to get agent Smith like you guys remember the Matrix and agent Smith was Hugo weaving's character this horrible Sinister figure and there's a scene in The Matrix where he's just multiplied you know how many hundreds of times and you know that's a sort of a dark dystopian vision of these agents that are not acting as if they are our agents but in fact they belong to some other

465. 4:15:07

     more Sinister Force but even that is proving hard to convince people that that you don't want that right because all the convenience and the ease of these wonderful as you put it magical experiences are hard so how do we think about um how we have our cake and eat it too we are building these systems that are fairer are not abusing people give us autonomy and and end up with something that is far more pro-human and pro-social but also it's because people are like this is cool I want that they don't have to be worried about like

466. 4:15:38

     doing it from a moral or or like Self Protection obligation rather it's actually economically enticed yeah rather than doing it for kind of negative oh I'm I'm fearful of certain outcomes I'm doing it for positive reasons because they enable experiences that that weren't possible before so I agree with that I mean I think there's two parts to this right I think we've had you know the the the fundamental um feature of web 3

467. 4:16:02

     technology is that it enables you to set up these structures in a way where incentives are more appropriately distributed where you can have privacy by Design you can have true ownership of the digital assets and data that that you accumulate and use every single day um and you can also have ownership of and sharing in the the the profits that are generated by the platforms themselves right so we have that technology in web 3 and we've had it for quite some time actually um to your

468. 4:16:27

     point you know the challenge I think that the industry has faced historically has been you know we adopted the the manra of like you know build it and they will come right we have all of this great infrastructure um and the users will just you know the founders will come the businesses will come um and you know the the web will be transformed but actually that hasn't happened in the way that I think a lot of us hope that it

469. 4:16:50

     would primarily because we've not spent enough time giving users the experiences that can actually at least match but ideally can do better than the current Web Two experiences and I think if you don't give people to your point that positive positive reason to want to switch the the the magic that only this technology can enable then uh you know then we won't be able to drag the majority of folks from the current Paradigm to the new one because the status quo is very very powerful and as

470. 4:17:23

     I mentioned the organizations that are you know developing and funding these products are also very powerful right and not only do they do they have the resources to build more addictive products and to capture our attention and and our focus more they're also the ones that are speaking with regulators and allmers globally to ensure that the Reg atory regime is such that it it actually enhances that capture and

471. 4:17:46

     control that they've already been um able to achieve here's an idea like so we were talking earlier about you know how does the near Vision fit within this and and a key aspect of it is this abstraction process and sort of we're talking about like obviously abst chain abstraction abstracting away the friction that exists between moving assets across chain but when you think about it um this problem of interoperability or the lack of

472. 4:18:10

     interoperability is it runs far deeper than just the blockchain world it's an element of every aspect of our digital lives like just taking uh you know a post on LinkedIn and trying to sort of share it on on Twitter as that there's this no interaction that creates this mental barrier for us this friction is is all the way there but AI agents could could do that quite effectively um is there an advantage that say near or

473. 4:18:33

     anybody else building in this way that is trying to create this more decentralized approach this has in being able to deliver that as a positive experience of people just you know this is we can solve your daily challenges of moving back and forth between these different things I think I think definitely it's a great it's a great question and for those of you who caught il's talk to kickoff um redacted yesterday you know he talked about how we have these three technological

474. 4:18:58

     pillars in in the ecosystem you've got the the core layer on blockchain you have the the chain abstraction kind of Technology stack and then you have all of the the user around AI work that is also being done and it's that combination of these components that can do exactly that right so I think you have the blockchain component which can enable the the kind of user owned features of these systems you have the chain abstraction technology which

475. 4:19:21

     removes complexity and connects all of these different ecosystems and pieces of infrastructure together in a seamless way so that for developers and for users it's easy to use and as we said you know this this this ease of use particularly for end users but I think also for for Builders is very important and then you have all of this user owned AI features and function ality um and there's a bunch of different things that we could dive into on on that that you you take

476. 4:19:48

     those two other ingredients and you expand it into what AI is currently capable of and when you have all of those three things together indeed you can have magical experiences that have not been possible before and in particular you know and one of the demos that ier showed is you can have agents that can take complex actions and execute them on a user's behalf so instead of having to do 15 Steps when you're trying to buy a bicycle right you

477. 4:20:12

     can actually do all of that in one place and it can be done by an agent that is truly that you truly own that is private and that is kind of fighting your corner which we all need we all need someone that is fighting our corner at scale and that is exactly what these that's why I think in fact the whole you know privacy meets convenience thing is actually right of that space it starts to work

478. 4:20:33

     because I think that level of trust the conversation about needing to trust gets all the more intense when you are explaining to people it's your agent right that very idea is ingrained in in actual law right the principal there principal agent laws that place all these fiduciary responsibilities on an agent that they cannot act in anybody else's interest they have to act on behalf of the principal you being the principal in this case and so and I think people get

479. 4:20:58

     that they'll understand that right so I want that thing to be trusted and I but I also want it to be able to therefore do all these difficult tasks on my behalf the lawyer that I I could never write you know a contract this lawyer is going to do it for me but they they have a fiduciary duty to me is now translated into a software sense so I certainly see that as being a real opportunity to to bring you know the mainstream on board on that but there's another aspect I

480. 4:21:21

     want to talk about because we started we talk about the Magnificent Seven the the the big the big platforms um and and there is a huge Head Start that they have in this and I think regardless of whether or not we can produce magical experiences that are decentralized and trustworthy uh and and and just really solve all these problems the very fact that they have $ 17 trillion in market

481. 4:21:45

     cap uh amongst those top seven companies uh in the US this it's more than a third of the S&P 500 um and they sort of own most of the data is certainly the public data of the internet has gone through those very same companies they control the compute and video is one of those companies it's like responsible for like 95% of all AI chip production Y and I would argue they actually own the policy makers because they're the ones who are sitting down having the meetings in in Congress and talking through what this

482. 4:22:17

     you know regulatory capture model might look like um how do we go up that $17 trillion is a war chest it's a it's they can acquire whatever Innovations they want to either incorporate or just to take out into the woodshed and kill you know just to suppress how do we as a as an ecosystem as a community you know in a rather fragmented way fight them it's a great question I mean and well one indeed scary picture that you just painted right but I think if it was so gloy if it was um we need a fire bias to