Deep Dive into the World of DAOs - Fireside Chat with NEAR Protocol and Aragon

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:20

   welcome everybody um we have a special little uh treat for uh both the near ecosystem and the larger crypto space as well where we're going to have a a little dao panel between nears jordan gray and aragorn's ivan fartenov today they're going to pretty much be discussing where they see the dallas face right now where they see the dow space going into the future and then some of the bigger

2. 0:46

   questions about you know the fundamental value of dows and what people can expect to do with those things today so just to get off the ground why don't we start with introductions from both of you respectively and then also just a little overview of what the dow focus product is that you both work on or work for uh respectively jordan why don't we uh start with you cool yeah thanks for having us i'm really excited to talk about dao's darwin

3. 1:16

   day day in and day out um so i actually started at near foundation about seven months ago so relatively new to the crypto space professionally but actually got into it through running a non-profit or in tech organization having success with nfts trying everything under the sun to find out what would be right for our artists and then really liking what i found at near and that included both um just like the the nft tooling in the ecosystem but

4. 1:50

   also the communities and the dows which for nonprofit organizations are a really powerful tool so that's kind of like where i'm coming from previous to near i was at google shipping versions of material design for marketing pages and before that i was doing technology management for fortune 500 companies shipping web pages and apps and yeah that's pretty much me great uh yvonne for from for yourself

5. 2:24

   your background uh the company that you're representing it's in the it's in the title but i think just uh just for the audience yeah i have like the the near thing here but yeah ah okay that's better yeah uh yeah so um i'm part of argon i joined about three months ago to grow the ecosystem around the project and to push for a more collaborative approach both internally and like with other projects inside inside what three

6. 2:58

   and you know that's that that's like my my mission within aragon both internally and externally is to just focus attention on collaboration and coordination uh because you know tower infrastructure is all about doing things together and like if the projects that are delivering this infrastructure can't do things together it's like it just it it feels a bit out of whack uh and yeah so before that i worked at uh management consulting firm in the middle east i was

7. 3:33

   helping telecoms develop digital ecosystems in esports and fintech and i also worked with like a sovereign world fund on developing an ecosystem for electric vehicle manufacturing which is pretty cool uh before that i built the institutional lending side of the business the institutional lending business of like one of the bigger lenders in in web 3.

8. 3:56

   it's called nexil um so yeah and even earlier i worked in in renewable energy and sustainability very cool very cool um i think that's cool that both of your unique profiles respectively kind of have a amalgamation of different you know uh engagements before getting into the crypto space um to kind of set the table for this conversation uh perhaps we could start with each of you

9. 4:25

   kind of introducing more or less the the scope and function of the products that you work on um and then i have a question kind of about the nature of daos that can maybe kick off the the conversation we'll do that after after the introductions yeah okay um i guess i can go first again and what i've been really busy with is um shipping a version a new interface for the dow tooling on near so um nier has the sputnik smart contracts

10. 4:59

    and for developers and people that have been around the ecosystem probably familiar with those and how they work the v2 of sputnik allowed for things like custom function calls which is a superpower basically and also allowed for more flexible voting based on tokens or nft like holding those things allowing you to be a member of the dao voting member of it so what astro is focused on is taking all those superpowers

11. 5:30

    and wrapping them up in a clean interface for people that are coming from the web 2 space or who aren't necessarily web 3 natives so that they can take advantage of all that and um you know be part of this work revolution that's happening so that's pretty much it great uh yvonne for you and aragon yeah so um basically after the dao uh aragon is sort of the og of dao infrastructure we started uh in 2017 have done

12. 6:08

    a lot of things since uh obviously as a lot of the infrastructure on ethereum we we hit a like a lot of issues once once uh our personal uh finance so on website with ethereum going through the roof and like so much activity on the network um but uh you know before before that happened the the argonne client which is a very uh forward workforce thing about was was very widely used uh and then since then we've been iterating on that we've released some some uh newer conceptual frameworks for for how

13. 6:48

    to run an organization uh like govern which is like optimistic framework which basically means assuming consensus as the default and then like if there is disagreement then you go to like either arbitration or or voting by everyone and the direction we are going is a bit more towards okay now we figured out like doubt tooling and coordination and governance tooling is too big of a chunk for anyone to try to handle

14. 7:19

    uh by their own so so let's make sure we uh have a platform and a framework that is interoperable with with things that other projects are building either on ethereum or on other chains uh so that you know the the the the dow builders of the future can decide to do you know some things on ethereum some things on here some things on polygons something like harmony like you know across like we we see a multi-chain future

15. 7:48

    uh and like a multi-tool future and we're trying to to to move towards that by working with with with a bunch of great teams in the space super cool um so i think you know as crypto becomes more present in you know across different sectors of the economy people look at these kind of acronyms and they're in these key keywords like nfts d5 dows they don't really know you know much behind what it means right so like what does dow mean why are you going to doubtify an organization what's

16. 8:20

    the value of of dalifying your organization um maybe some people in crypto have heard of you know the dow hack for both of you where kind of if you could explain to someone who might not be super invested in the space someone who's just trying to get like a feel for what to associate with the with the you know the acronym dao and why it matters what would both of you say respectively of the fundamental value lying beneath daos as an emerging technology stack

17. 8:51

    yeah from from my perspective um i think that what usually resonates with folks as i'm explaining it to them is just the idea of like a digital cooperative usually kind of like um strikes a chord or also sometimes like something like a facebook group with a bank account um playing into how people are used to kind of like interacting with each other today and then also implying that

18. 9:16

    there's like more than that you can do than just like chat and vote with each other um things like that um and then also usually break it down into looking at like the terms themselves of like decentralized autonomous um the organization part is easy to understand but for the um the decentralization i usually talk about how it's it's not just about the geography being distributed but also how power is distributed so that it's not about like there being a

19. 9:48

    centralized power bring the power back to the workers and the people who contribute um and that being like a significant shift that's contributing to the way that work is changing and then for the for the autonomous bit like that's like especially interesting to me because um there's right now we're in a period of time where there's a lot of like decision-making jobs that happen like that's a large amount of the kind of work that happens but once you kind of look at the shape of the decisions that

20. 10:20

    are being made and figure out a way to effectively codify those then all those decision-making jobs are going away and that's the point where usually people are like i don't know i kind of like my desk job but um i think that that's really where the power lies and that's really where the revolution is and where we're gonna see a turning point um and there's there's risk there there's a lot to figure out as far as like how to take decision

21. 10:43

    making and make it codified because then when you're doing that you you're putting bias into the formula and things like that so you really want to get it right and you want it to be flexible but also not hackable so there's a lot to figure out still but the the pieces are there for us to really like step into the next revolution of work um and that's what it's like the most exciting thing to me

22. 11:06

    about what we're doing together um with with these tools so that's where i usually leave off thank you yeah i i love the the the the digital cooperative i think i'm i'm using that quite a bit as well um because it's like a thing that people can can understand and relate to and the the the one bit i i like to stress uh a bit is that it's a more equitable cooperative in a way because

23. 11:37

    like one of the big things that the crypto and blockchain enables is this realignment of incentives and across the board of human interactions right so uh when people think of traditional cooperatives it's usually like you know checking in capital into a shared pool which like a lot of dows are doing that right it's like you know we we have we we've pulled capital together we're

24. 12:02

    going to farm we're going to you know ap into nfts together and stuff like that but but there is a big part that's that's even growing in like exploring how you attribute participation into the into this decision making based on other types of contribution other than capital be that labor be that social capital uh and and and those uh those aspects excite people a lot because uh you know i mean let's be honest a lot of a lot of people in life are are driven by financial incentives and and they're like they just want a better

25. 12:41

    life for themselves and the people they love and you know if if you are in an underprivileged geography and and you can deliver quality work for a dao like you you got to get renumerated handsomely in something that that is a part of a community and you share the upside of of everyone doing things together so that that ownership and that more equitable distribution of ownership is is really is really something that i find very powerful

26. 13:16

    uh on the on the autonomous stuff uh there was a like a really cool way uh kane from synthetics put it and i really like that which he was saying that like at the moment autonomous is about being um being autonomous as an organization from external stakeholders and interests as in everything that happens within dao is decided by the dao members like there isn't necessarily uh a court system associated with that like uh uh like an association like a trade association or anything like that right it's like

27. 13:55

    the community the dow itself decides what happens and how they they do things but but to jordan's point i i love the the the more like computer part of of of like automation part of the autonomous um i was we were having this internal discussion within aragon and at some point i was like why do you guys assume we'll be delegating to humans like at some point i'm just gonna have

28. 14:20

    uh you know as like an ai and i'm gonna be optimized for this outcome i delegate my stake and then like that algorithm makes decisions based on the the optimization objective i gave it because it is capable to absorb a lot more input than any human being right and process it faster so theoretically for certain types of decisions i i completely agree like machines would replace humans for

29. 14:49

    certain types of decisions yeah and the the composability there is exciting too the way that you know you've got a well-defined input and output for a vote that needs to be made and then the oracles that inform that vote so it's actually like a very clean way of encapsulating things yeah yeah human nature that you're talking about like the the autonomous bit there yeah an interesting like an interesting example i was thinking of like back in

30. 15:18

    my previous life we were we're looking at like traffic systems in cities and there was this idea of people in a traffic jam bidding to change the duration of the light right and that's like that's something that people can't optimize like there is no way you can optimize for that but like a machine knowing the traffic situation across your route from home to work can optimize like on which traffic lights you should bid the most right so like and then

31. 15:52

    obviously like people that are part of the same community or or or or work at the same company they can like dow it right like they can be a different traffic clients beating so and making sure they don't beat against each other and stuff like that so like it's it's it's it's possibilities are endless totally different ride pool situation for sure very cool um i think on this topic of integrations is specifically interesting because a

32. 16:24

    lot of times i think there's a tendency at least in the crypto space to think of the different tool stack as like not fully integrated with each other yet right so like people think of an nft marketplace as being a place to do nft stuff they think of a d5 platform as a place to you know look for yield they think of a dow factor as a place to do governance maybe if both of you could talk about the ways that you see daos as you know

33. 16:50

    grand unifiers of this on-chain world applications where you know a game might use a dao or you know a group of people might collaborately collaboratively invest using a dao what other kind of examples are you finding there's a lot of interest in from the like you know actual on the ground development side and then what examples do you guys think you know excitedly about like this is something that's going to be super cool

34. 17:13

    in the next six months to a year yeah from from my side one of the as we've been working on astro um and making it so that all of these things are really usable for everyday people um just getting kind of the internal functions of a dao figured out in governance and making that familiar um is already like a task in itself and that's kind of where things are at right now where um the traditional things you think of a dow doing like those are available in a

35. 17:44

    clean interface and then what we're looking to in our in our next iteration is taking the custom function calls and figuring out how to make that something that is discoverable and allows people to do things um that that they wouldn't necessarily think a dao would be doing so like in not only the near ecosystem there's a lot of dapps that a dow can interact with through those function calls but then also through all the bridges that are being built to ethereum um seoul

36. 18:15

    cardano like there's there's so many bridges that have already shipped and are in development um from from near to other places back and forth and i think that that's also a really exciting thing about working in the dow space is like sometimes when you're working in crypto there will be like some tribalism and people being like oh my chain or no chain and things like that but in the dow space everybody is very collaborative and very excited to work

37. 18:39

    with each other and the first thing everybody wants to talk about is oh how do we get our doubts to talk to each other over the bridges and i just really love that about the energy of this space and especially what's happening in dallas right now i completely second that um like that that was the thing that got me because i was like wait a minute everybody's like kumbaya like everybody wants to do cool

38. 19:05

    stuff and and they're excited about what they're doing and they want to do it together uh which which like in other sort of sub spaces of web 3 it's you don't really get that feeling uh of like let's vibe and and be happy and and create value together it's like a lot of other sub communities see this as a there's a zero sum game and like i when you lose sort of thing and like here it's everybody's like i mean they're pretty so massive that nobody is focused on

39. 19:36

    bickering over the pieces of the pie everybody's focused on growing it which is really cool uh but yeah to get back into the actual question um what we're seeing a lot is obviously the the capital allocation sort out which is either nft or d5 focused uh you know certain certain certain aspects of that also relate to like demand for legal rappers and things like that but i think coming from

40. 20:09

    not only that maybe not even the broader nft space but from from from the metaverse space i think that's going to be a very very interesting new new new niche from where a lot of demand for dallas is going to come because it's it's very uh it feels very natural right like if you think of a gaming guild like i mean leaving aside the fact that like a lot of a lot of teams when they talk about

41. 20:33

    substructures within their team is about guilds but like leaving that even aside like within a gaming guild you already usually have shared resources you know you have to you you have like a common treasury sometimes you have to to to make trade-offs on which quests to pursue and that involves collective decision it involves shared resources i mean it it's it's like it's like it was built to be dourified right so so i think there's gonna be a lot of that uh

42. 21:06

    i think on the on on jordan's point of about cooperatives i i can see the emergence of a lot of digital work cooperatives like uh you know if you if you think of uh like places where you you you you like um sorry like the the job boards for for digital work like honestly as as a user of those they're really awesome but if i if i'm the person providing the value there and i'm like wait a minute i have to submit a design and then like the person that

43. 21:41

    that puts up the job picks one of a hundred and only the one that gets picked gets paid like that that doesn't seem cool to me right right so i think by by enabling some sort of by empowering coordination among creators of digital content and that that doesn't necessarily mean artwork it could mean like people that build websites people that that that build user experience flows and being enabling them to work together and and

44. 22:12

    ultimately ship out better things is it is powerful also i think it will take away a bit of the need for this weird stakeholder we've been having since the invention of the corporation which is the investor which provides capital only and like i think i mean not all of them but like sometimes so i think like the the the possibility to launch products and and projects in the digital space relying on

45. 22:44

    users even if they're not paying even if they're just like buying a part of of what they would in the future use is is going to be is going to be very interesting for the dynamics of innovation in even in web 2 as well yeah i love that you touched on just even that that nature work bit about like the idea of contests and just putting in basically spec work and not getting anything out of it i love that dao's can do things where there's incremental

46. 23:17

    payments and it's much easier to do smaller incremental payments than kind of like the old world idea of like oh you get paid once a month and all your work has to be wrapped up in this time period um just the ability to look at a lot of the valuable work that's happening in the world and to reward it like that's a very exciting aspect of it um being able to oracle things like tweets so that you can like reward

47. 23:40

    people for being part of the marketing um and yeah being able to reward participation and then doing a bigger reward for the highest quality submission things like that are all great ways of um like leveraging the power of the dows and i also love that um i've been touched on the the legal wrappers for daos and this is something that you know is is certainly up and coming and is going to be evolving um the other week in wyoming for the

48. 24:10

    blockchain stampede i had the pleasure of wrapping up uh a spaceport dao into a legal entity um which was you know interesting it was it was a lot easier than i thought it was going to be the the legal documents themselves were probably easier to parse than a lot of like um like dial code but um it only took like an hour or two and it cost a hundred dollars and you can domicile in wyoming um and you know it's great to have those

49. 24:42

    options for folks in the united states but then also looking into like uh global domiciling with um i guess switzerland is doing work in that regard where um we're looking at that to to get um daos from all over the world some legal advice through the the near legal guild um and then yeah there's just gonna be a lot of options because with the legal stuff you're you're putting down things into law about systems that change more quickly than the law can so this is something that's

50. 25:14

    going to be evolving and we'll we'll see how it all plays out but yeah that's certainly an exciting interface it's not just bridging between the chains but bridging into the real world for you know dows that want to own land or you know all the other things that they can do in the real world yeah that's a great point um i want to get into a little bit of the notion of cross-chain community building and i

51. 25:42

    know that uh yvonne on your part that's a big component of aragon's development plan um so let's hear some alpha or i don't know if you have any alpha on that front but but let's hear you know where where is aragon right now in terms of it's kind of flourishing beyond ethereum onto other chains and what kind of a world do you imagine with aragon on you know six or seven different ones in the in the next couple years

52. 26:14

    uh well so you know in in that direction so we we've launched on polygon and we are organizing together with 15 other partners uh near included this really awesome hackathon starting uh in 11 days and so on on the on the multi-chain side there we have polygon near and harmony as partners that would be building towards enabling dow tooling across chains because i think i mean ultimately like the horizon that you mentioned ultimately

53. 26:51

    in in in in five to seven years like the average if if we do things well and by we i mean not on only aragon i mean like the space as a whole if web 3 does things well the average dow user in seven years is not gonna know what a layer one is like they're not gonna know which chain their organization runs on they'll just know that things are being optimized on the backside for the trade-offs that they've selected as meaningful for them

54. 27:23

    and that's that's gonna be that's gonna be the user experience like i i think i mean that's that's the way we see the future unfold and then if if if you still need to know what a layer one and a layer two is to deploy a dao in seven years we've done a job pardon my french absolutely um those are those are things that people shouldn't have to worry about and yeah love the plug for the dow global hackathon super looking forward to participating in that and the fact that

55. 27:57

    there's going to be like not just that part one of like the 25th to the 25th of october to the 12th of november that there's going to be kind of the different tracks that people can work on and in addition to the cross chain stuff i'm really excited about the finance and operations track and just again those those touch points where dials are are being um integrated into the real world because we have a lot of dowels on the creative space that are interested in like being able to do print on demand or being able to pay for

56. 28:28

    their subscriptions and things like that so the finnops stuff might sound boring if you just listen to the words but when you look at what it's enabling um there's some really cool meaty stuff in there and then um also excited for you know part two of that hackathon the dow global hackathon where it's just it's more of an open track and that's going to be running from the 12th of november to the 10th of december um so yeah really looking

57. 28:54

    forward to seeing what comes out of out of the collaboration space with all these awesome awesome teams coming together from all these different chains and real quickly just for an outsider's perspective here what's the criteria to participate what kind of people could get involved in this hackathon um what kind of if i am curious but i don't know how to get involved do i need a team any any info on on actually participating you you go to the git coin page of the

58. 29:25

    of the event uh you like there you would find a link to a like there is a special discord like the partners we agreed that like it makes sense to have a collaborative discord where all the the partner teams are present instead of everyone trying to have like a a sub part in their own discord of like oh that's where we run it right so just in the spirit of collaboration there is a separate discord server with all the partners there with like developers that already are interested in doing something there is a find the

59. 29:57

    team channel if you if you want to participate in a team otherwise you can you can also run solo uh just just some awful league they're going to be two different pops they're going to be like a team player and a lone soldier one depending on if you participate as as a team or as a person like a single individual so so you know there's gonna be some gamification there as well um and yeah and you just you know uh bounties will go live on 25th you you can hack on bounties pushed forward by

60. 30:28

    the partners or you know starting november 12th you do whatever whatever whatever you think is needed for the dow space right like it it has to be relevant to the house but then there is no no no restriction on what stack you want to use i mean if you want to like hack away your own layer one and do dow develop doubt tools on top of that and you can do that in in in four weeks you know go for it like there isn't any no no strings attached you can you can

61. 31:00

    submit whatever it is as long as it's a full technical like complete technical submission it it it enters the race and and as long as it's relevant for dallas sounds super cool it is it is it's gonna be awesome um and then some of the other tooling that's being brought to the table like on on the near side are things like crown cat that allow you to schedule recurring things um we saw several projects at the last near hackathon take advantage of that and integrate it with thous and then the

62. 31:32

    streaming payment stuff as well as is some tooling that we're getting integrated with the dows and these are the first things that we're looking at from the like the custom function call point of view to integrate into astro as being like tools that we see being useful across a bunch of use cases um so yeah excited for this yeah sounds fantastic um so i think there is a couple of questions from community members who

63. 32:03

    you know if i'm in the crypto space and i interface with a lot of different communities the question often comes up you know you should dalify your community or you should dalify your product as you guys see it and where you guys are working kind of what would you recommend to a community member that's in a community that wants to dalify when is it a great idea when is it probably not necessary and same thing goes for

64. 32:28

    products do you see the future of web3 products as all of them operating with some form of on-chain governance or are there times in a product might not need uh on-chain governance i think you know giving those two options you know feel free to take it whichever way you want from the community side or from the product side but i i know people are at least from the crypto side are really interested in uh in hearing what you

65. 32:50

    guys think everything should be enough come on who are we kidding um i think that like it's kind of the same advice that i give like i speak with a lot of artists about nfts and what i always tell them is like yes you can do like the quick grab of like mint something and put it out as an nft and be done with it but really what's on the table is so much more than that like an nft is a smart contract and really learning a little bit about that and what blockchain means

66. 33:24

    and thinking about how that applies to your art practice will eventually give you like much more interesting and meaningful results than just copying what's already being done and turning the crank and calling it a day um and i think that you know the dao situation is similar we've seen a few patterns for like successful dials of like being able to do the the shared finances and farming and nft collecting and things like that and those are great use cases but really it's looking at your

67. 33:56

    community or what you're doing with your product and seeing dows as another tool in your arsenal for whatever you're trying to get done like if for community building you need to incentivize something or get consensus or want to distribute power to your people rather than having to be a bottleneck in the process of throwing events or whatever else you're doing then a dow makes a lot of sense um and if you're in marketing and trying to do similar things like for for product

68. 34:27

    development a lot of times your users are your most important asset so to not be encouraging them to understand their stake in it and to see their value in the stake of it and to reward them for their participation i mean that would just be a huge loss so i see it as a super valuable tool for you know both the use cases that you mentioned yeah absolutely i think uh i remember when i when i was in the middle east i i did this slide about uh uni swap the the retro airdrop and i was

69. 34:59

    like from my perspective this is the equivalent of uh paypal giving you 10 bucks to test paypal you know way back when like 20 years ago right but today it's not 20 bucks it's like i don't know whatever 12 000 dollars i mean like like sharing the value with with early supporters is a very it it it it's a very powerful tool to onboard early supporters and early users of whatever your product whatever product you're building but but i i completely agree with jordan

70. 35:38

    that you have to think about the community that you're building and the community that you want to build for for an ex like uh over an extended period of time because ultimately and we've seen that as well happen where like projects are like oh yeah we're gonna do it now and then they don't want to give away control and like it's like okay but like i mean really that sounds like just specula that sounds like an ico with extra steps basically right

71. 36:09

    and and and so you have to make sure that you have the right incentives in place and and like nobody really has that figured out yet in in my view uh but there are a lot of projects that are on the right path of of giving away control and and sense of ownership to the community so that you can really push forward a product in a meaningful way as opposed to just you know we have the product we have the product team there

72. 36:41

    is this community thing that that's like sits somewhere there but you know if you if you don't it's sort of like uh you get what you give situation in in doubt space i believe and and the more you give to the community the more you'll receive from them as a you know as a core initiator of that dao and also add on to that that in a lot of ways um it's inherently tied to the real world

73. 37:14

    like we're talking about some of the technical ways that it gets tied to the real world but we're dealing with attention economies on all of these fronts and that's one of the first places i see dallas kind of like fall apart or communities fall apart is when the attention goes elsewhere so that's like almost one of the first things you have to optimize for is like how are you going to make this worth looking at and being part of before you decide like oh i need a dao it's like

74. 37:40

    what what are you offering what's on the table why should people even care yeah absolutely and just to to jordan's point on attention it was really funny because uh you know like there was a point where every doubt all like oh we should vote on everything and i'm like that that doesn't make sense like nobody wants to vote on everything right like there is there is voter fatigue and like decision

75. 38:05

    like just decision making fatigue and people don't like people want to be consulted when it comes to like meaningful things they don't really want to be just sit there and click all day long on on on on making decisions for the sake of making decisions right uh and yeah like it's sorry i've lost my thought can you make a paper clip game version of a doubt where all you have to do is click on things and number goes up

76. 38:40

    i also think about like when you look at it in hindsight right like 10 years from now they're gonna look back like remember when daos first came out and everyone was clicking all the time for everything like how terrible that was like growing pains of the tech um on that topic of uh growing pains for the tech i think a lot of people associate dow governance with with token-based voting right so i have

77. 39:04

    a certain amount of tokens i can vote with those tokens on a proposal or i can delegate those tokens to a certain person who can then vote on those proposals i think there's a lot of interesting stuff there because on the one hand you get the notion of like a protocol politician right like a role where people delegate to this person to make decisions for them in a dow but on the other hand you also kind of get people saying well we should look to

78. 39:28

    alternatives to only token-based voting mechanisms i'd be interested to hear um from both of you kind of how you see that landscape if there's any you know major problems you you've kind of dealt with on that front or or what common solutions are that that people are approaching to things like this yeah for on the near side where we have a lot of active guilds and dials like we have over 100 active dials um but we don't have

79. 40:00

    doubts i would say with like the thousands of members where you start getting into risk of like civil attacks with tokens and things like that and a lot of the dowser guilds are really relying on the seat-based voting and um management of a council group and then um really just looking starting to look at the possibilities of the the token based voting and nft based voting and in some ways the nft based voting offers even more flexibility than the token-based voting um

80. 40:33

    and that's where i'm excited to see developments um i haven't seen any like standout use cases where i'm like this is the one way to do it but i think that there's a lot of room to explore there and that's where i'm like excited to see things go um especially as like thousands of bringing in this idea of like seasonal content and trying to keep people's attention like make it so that you need an nft every season that says i'm still here and i still want to be here kind of

81. 40:57

    thing um it's also a nice way of giving people a way to opt out that is healthy and encourages and doesn't punish people for opting out because i think that that's another thing too is like it it is great to think about that for longevity but not every down needs to live forever and not everybody's participation in the down needs to be forever so um designing things in ways that allow for like not just easy on-boarding but

82. 41:24

    also easy off-boarding and making both things positive that's that's that's that's like an awesome point and actually i just yesterday so i was part of this course on how to dial because i mean i'm a professional but i still like there's a lot of things to learn and like obviously part of the space is like there's always new stuff coming out and and uh and i i just found out that uh basically in in v3 of molok they'll have a rage pause

83. 41:55

    which is a function that allows you to like signal to the rest of the of the the dollar your member of like i'm taking a step back like i'm i'm still here i haven't left but like i don't want to be actively involved which i think is is really powerful in the direction that jordan was mentioning of like like you still want to be alone for the ride you just don't want to like commit actively

84. 42:18

    and and giving that signal to the rest of the of the of the community sort of liberates them of of struggling to keep you engaged right they know like okay that person is no longer interested but they're still around like i i think that like that level of of of thinking about the evolution is very important because at the moment good times bull market everybody's super interested and then at some point maybe it's not going to be the case

85. 42:49

    and and projects would feel like they're failing because like they're losing engagement but it's it's just part of the part of the cycles and in in we have those in any industry as well so i think like having that off-boarding experience or or pausing is is very is very important and uh just on the on the on the token-based voting it's like there seems to be a consensus at the moment that like

86. 43:17

    quadratic folding is going to solve everything and and i'm i'm inherently skeptical of silver bullet solutions because because from my perspective like quadratic bowling basically moves a lot of the the collusion just it moves it off chain so instead of it being on chain it's going to be object like that that doesn't really solve all the problems it's all some but all so and and and the journalists point like they're they're they're efficient systems for certain sizes of

87. 43:51

    organizations that really make sense where you have like this token based voting on the aggregate and then within that you have certain guilds that take care of certain like managerial functions uh and managing those guilds with like expirable nfts is is something that i think is going to happen pretty soon and i know the starting council is like the the census there is based on an nft that you get when you get voted

88. 44:18

    in the council i don't know if it automatically expires but like i think that that model is going to gain more and more traction yeah really cool and especially when you consider that again nfts are just smart contracts so there's all kinds of things that you can play with there and then also on the on the near side in the there's a a pretty interesting account system on here where every single

89. 44:42

    contract lives on an account so having a dao as either a sub dial or a partner dao if they are sitting on each other's consoles is like a trivial thing to do um just adding the doubts to each other or you know dials all the way down kind of situations or or like yeah an interesting frontier we'll see how it all plays out yeah yeah for sure something else that i think is interesting on the topic of the the protocol politicians is uh the idea of slashing because i don't

90. 45:13

    see that having emerged yet and and i i was having this discussion with with with the with a with a friend and we're talking about like you can draw a parallel between what protocol politicians are and what node operators are right it's securing the network in one case through validating transactions in the other case through governance decisions and especially if you get delegated

91. 45:38

    voting power and presumably some incentive to execute that work like there has to be a slashing mechanism there has to be a like a a stick because at this point we only have a carrot for for for the the active participants in governance and it makes sense considering the maturity of the industry but at some point we have to like make sure that behavior remains in the best interest of the

92. 46:01

    network yeah it's a one interesting mechanism for getting people to actually show up to events where you you put in your your pool money and then everybody who actually shows up gets paid back out of the pool if you don't show up you forfeit what you put into the pool so maybe something like that would be interesting where there's there's some initial staking when you make your commitment you're like i'm gonna be here and then um

93. 46:27

    if you if you if you don't live up to your to your promises then there's some consequences um and also on on the near side we've got the idea of bonds so anytime you submit a proposal you've got to put in the bond just so that there's no like huge spamming um a little bit in those lines but yeah yeah the the the closest thing we have today to slashing on on aragon's side is one of the other partners in the hackathon uma uh held us

94. 46:56

    build those kpi options where basically you can you're going to get rewarded with options and then if if if if they if you hit whatever kpi you've had at the let's say the beginning of your term as a protocol politician if you don't hit those kpis those options expire being worthless so you you can lose the reward but that's still like only losing the upside you still don't have like any downside yet but you know it's it's working progress

95. 47:27

    it's a really really interesting space and i i like that idea overall but then also like the idea of like rewarding measurement too because when you make estimates it's not always about hitting the estimate exactly this is just my my project manager nerd coming out but right just being able to reward people who actually make estimates and then report on their estimates is like um i'm interested in those kinds of systems

96. 47:51

    so so at the end of the day we boil everything down to prediction markets and that's that's everything is a prediction market i love it um so i i know we're we're kind of running somewhat close to time as we start to kind of like look into where this space is going yvonne you said you know there's a lot of carrots there's no sticks yet i think it's it's kind of fun to think about the dow space today as where the d5 space was in like late 2018 early 2019 even like where

97. 48:25

    like people were like what does d5 even mean you know what i mean they really like didn't have any conceptual understanding of something that at scale worked um where do you guys see this space going how soon till takeoff like you know we saw nfts really take off go mainstream are dow is going to take off as well are they going to be you know less impactful more of a slow burn how

98. 48:48

    do you guys see the whole space emerging in the coming years yeah i i see it as easily being kind of the next wave of interest in the crypto space um like twitter doesn't even have a followable uh tag or category for dallas yet but you always get suggested nfts so um i think that the growth opportunity is there and the excitement is there um you know the people that are on the ground working on the stuff right now have that burning energy where like this is

99. 49:18

    exciting stuff we're here because we can see the changes that it's going to make and whether it's this year or next year or you know a couple years next cycle who knows but um my feeling is that as i've been working with people who aren't native to the crypto space so much and um like introducing them to the concept of dials and then kind of like as an aside to that then also dfi and like nfts and other capabilities of web3 um

100. 49:51

     i i see a huge um engagement opportunity with the folks that are just learning about these things for the first time and seeing things like wall street bets i think that there's there's a culture there's a zeitgeist where people are starting to see the benefits of collective organization and thinking maybe i can be part of this and now it's getting to the point where it's accessible enough that anybody who has

101. 50:14

     that thought can like grab a wallet without too much trouble and then yeah cast their first proposal and see how it goes uh i i love that that energy and ideas i'm a tad bit more skeptical because because from my perspective like both d5 and nfts exploded because and became mainstream because there was like virtually unlimited financial upside and that was the catalyst and i'm not saying that it's a bad thing because because it brings it brings money and talent into a space and it

102. 50:49

     helps it grow and develop um i don't know could i don't know when and how dallas will find that catalyst to bring in bring in to bring in the the the vast majority of of newcomers and mass like that's that's why i i see it more as a slow burn and more like that was being layered on top of d5 and nft is within the web 3 and then like trickling into the real world people seeing actual impact into the real world and and that would be more of an unlock

103. 51:27

     because i mean otherwise we would just come up with i don't know incentivized governance or something and like uh again like oh i'm voting with proposals i'm getting like a 10 000 yield and and like that that is for sure gonna bring in a lot of attention i don't know how sustainable it is and it feels like the dow culture is a bit more focused on sustainable value creation yeah i really like that aspect of it that it does have that focus and yeah i feel i feel the slow burn um the points

104. 51:59

     and kind of to echo that and reinforce it a little bit the the dow adoption and doubt interactions are very human to human yes we've got all this unchained stuff happening but it is like um it's something where it requires you to care about other people and to meet other people and to engage with other people for it to be successful and meaningful for you so along those lines i think that it will

105. 52:22

     kind of like grow at that human scale of the way that things move through communities and when you get a community leader involved then they can bring their folks along too so that's where i've seen like some of the growth spikes and not like a 10x100x type of spike but just like starting to see the communities really coming in in numbers that weren't previously part of web3 is when you get like the streamers on board

106. 52:47

     um and people who are already organizing in in the real world um and empowering their communities that's where at least astros we've been getting people on board that's where we've seen a lot of success and um i think kind of i'll leave it at that yeah i think that there's like there's a good growth opportunity there for people wanting to read about daos follow people who are deeply in the dao space watch content about dao's where

107. 53:21

     did you guys start is it the kind of thing where you learn by doing or what would you recommend to someone from the outside if they're like i need to understand what a dow is and i want to read you know five articles or a book on it is there any formative materials on on your part that helped you guys understand it oh there's so much information um on twitter yeah yeah um crypto never sleeps so just uh keep on absorbing don't try and understand everything at once but just keep on absorbing

108. 53:52

     two of the places where i point people right away is just like the nearguilds.com site because it shows a lot of like viable use cases and a lot of things where somebody might browse past and be like oh i i do like music or whatever else um web design one of the guilds that exists and that's a great entry point for people and kind of along those lines the the open web sandbox is a great place for people who are individual contributors to kind of

109. 54:17

     like get oriented and besides that like inside the space there's just there's so much to absorb um i really like the forefront community for their openness like their discord like you don't need to own token to benefit from their community being part of it and everything like that so their openness is like really cool to see and they've got like daily recaps that they do um so i really appreciate what they're up to um and yeah then just like finding the person people on twitter that kind of like resonate with you and making your

110. 54:49

     own twitter list since there's not like a great follow list yet um like koopa troopers like a great node of like information um he does a lot of like his own lists and points people at other people that are going going off and yeah follow astro doubt yeah like i i i think uh to to jordan's point because we we submitted a piece of like five 15 use cases for dao's and and that got a lot of people excited so i think like the the the story of

111. 55:24

     this is like someone who's taken the concept and applied it to specific niche of life is very powerful because people can relate to and like when you have the more the more diverse set you have the more the more relation points you would have uh and and we we also have people who are like okay i like this can i just fork that down like and i'm like you can afford the code you can't really

112. 55:47

     park the dow because like there's the community aspect like all those things but but yeah like i think i think there are a few a few places uh twitter definitely forefront i've i've enjoyed uh there's a lot of podcasts on the topic lately uh or specific guests so koopa troopa um aaron from from flamingo uh oren from from gnosis um like their episodes are usually usually pretty good uh bankless have really cool content around that as well

113. 56:26

     uh so yeah just twitter follow some people join some discord servers and and then you know down the rabbit hole and come to the hackathons that is one of those things where it's like the the best way to learn is just to do it and start looking at the possibilities and putting putting your feet on the ground and checking it out in addition to the hackathon we've got near khan coming up so near khan alpha is happening in lisbon october 26th and 27th if you're not able to get to lisbon

114. 56:57

     there is an online track um as well so you can participate that way um yeah that's that's my last cta amazing and i i just want to close by by thanking both of you um i think that uh beneath every you know emergent trend in the crypto space are a bunch of very normally altruistic and um hard working people that just love what they're doing so you know you guys are i think great examples for everyone else to see like on the front lines you know you had different backgrounds you came into crypto and you're making some serious

115. 57:30

     contributions to the future of the space so thank you both for your time uh jumping on today and for the work you guys do um and we're definitely looking forward to the the hackathon in uh about two weeks or so so awesome thank you for having me for having us it was awesome yeah cheers