Building the Open Web: RSS3's Vision for Decentralized Information w/ Joshua Meng

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1. 0:00

   nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstract.com for more information yeah um well this is chain abstracted podcast uh from from new protocol uh we talk about every everything that's quite fun about chain abstractor today we have obviously Joshua from from rss3 uh love to you know love to hear from you a little bit more who you are um how did you get into crypto and then we can start building

2. 0:30

   building the story of rss3 and uh lead that to chain abstraction of course thank you so much shton uh so hey guys uh it's Josh here um we are working on RS 3 and um so for the team uh we have been working on not exactly crypto but uh on what we call the open web and more importantly open information for a pretty long time uh if you look at one of my co-founders uh DIY got um there's a really famous uh open source project it's also decentralized but it's it's

3. 1:00

   it's it's called RCS Hub so basically this is the biggest decentralized uh Information Network for RCS right so you look at the history of the internet artist has played a really important role um in you know in especially in the beginning of the the internet and how uh information was distributed and and standardized and also it was uh I I believe is is one of the very first pioneers for building what became social media later on where you got the basic sense of how you can subscribe to a

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   specific uh specific content or specific source to to get more information updates afterwards um and so we have been working on the on the for a pretty long time until 2021 we we started to realize that uh blockchains and also other crypto-based Technologies would be uh uh in a way it would be the infrastructure for a new generation of information sources and content sources so we started to you know work on something called rcs3 but we only

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   started as as um as a for specification at first so it was like the original RSS where there was only one specification there was no network at the beginning there was definitely no chain no nothing uh but we were looking at the trend and we say okay uh so many things are happening on chain and uh I think one of the core differences between uh you know the original internet and and what we

6. 2:23

   call Web three now is that the technical stack it it it's in a way it's it determines that the the information that leades within the infrastructures cannot be permissioned cannot be closed right so if I look at what one uh that was you know relatively decentralized but people can choose whether they want to do you know close or open and web two is basically open and world uh but if we

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   look at W3 then the technical stack basically determines that you can't be closed so we believe that there's a new possibility for us to define a new type of specification at the same time uh we do need a network to actually uh execute it right because it's different from web one and web two um so there are so many different um protocols going on we can see you know socials gamings especially

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   in 2021 there was a lot of gamings and NS going on and also different social protocols there was no forecaster at the beginning there was there was uh you know a couple more other stuff there was steam at the very first and there was you know a couple more later on and now we have L of forecaster um I think we're looking uh forward to seeing like more uh social protocols and applications right there were there was uh so many different infrastructures going on and

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   we're looking forward to seeing so many different Innovations and but like for for developers and users one of the challenges uh you know started from from web one was the misalignment in data right because there are so many different things going on when things get decentralized it's really easy to get misaligned because they you know everyone has a different standard everyone has a different way of you know soring things and we want to make sure that developers and users could utilize

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    this data in a very simple way so that they can build stuff like you know when they were there were RSS and there were search engines there were other stuff going on and we believe we could do the same thing for web 3 so rc3 is now basically it's a network of different noes the noes gather information from so many different protocols as long as it's an open protocol and it has you know uh valuable information we're going to copy

11. 4:18

    it and then we basically uh take that information aggregate them and make sure that in the same standard and feed it to you know specifically we do social information AI um uh and yeah that's that's basically what we've been working on and the RC network RS3 network does come with a a blockchain called the vsl value sub layer that basically handles all the you know money related stuff Financial related stuff that related to to to the to the network and also to all of the activities happening within the

12. 4:48

    ecosystem and yeah that's basically what we've been uh working on I think at the moment RS3 is the biggest Information Network in web3 or crypto uh I think this is this this is um not something like Dy or game fire that's been you know verified as a really big vertical but uh this is something we believe could be really really important for us to you know move to the next step and help the world to build a better

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    internet yeah interesting so you have I guess let me let me break this down um you have different nodes right they aggregate information from I guess it could be like it's not an oracle but it's basically just getting the feat information from everywhere right and then those nodes are aggregated essentially that serve you you pretty much like you create a feed but you create a feed in a decentralized manner

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    that's why it's I guess like rss3 which is RSS is like creating feed uh depending on whatever you want to follow I guess currently right and then yeah I think yeah feed is one thing that we do uh like especially at the very early stage that was the first thing that we did yeah uh but later on we figured out that you know when we have with the nose aggregate all the information on the open web we could do a bit more right um for example if you look at Google that's

15. 6:00

    exactly what they do but in a centralized manner they aggregate data and they try to you know use a you know specific way for for to distribute that information so we do uh offer search shees as well so basically it's kind of like Google but uh you can search across so many different decentralized protocols just the no yeah yeah I mean Google is a closed Market marketplace right essentially they they serve you what they serve you what they want to

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    serve but in this sense like rss3 does it's an Open Marketplace where Plus like a sort of like a value layer which like now I have this information plus I'm able to I'm able to build um sort of like I'm going to say cryptoeconomic sort of yeah that's um and then serve that as a as a sort of a um well that's that's great that's also a great background to kind of like link that from RSS like rsss which is kind of like this information layer to um to um to rss3 um so I'd love

17. 6:56

    to hear more about I guess the the value layer approach right I guess like that's been that's not been the first case first sort of use case you guys have done and then essentially started doing that like I believe it's last year the that was like test net and then it's been launched on the main net I think it's like a four or five weeks ago yeah it's it's been a bit longer yeah it's uh six to eight something weeks yeah six to

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    eight weeks yeah love to love to sort of want to want to get your thoughts around there and then yeah that that'd be great to hear yeah absolutely I think um it's it's it's pretty interesting to see that a lot of different projects are doing chains you know these days right cuz like chains used to be I think uh if if we go back to 2021 that was a time when people were talking about how uh

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    every product team would be focusing solely on whatever they build right if you're information later you do only information if you're uh def5 protocol you only do defi protocol your wallet you do want it but uh I think if we look at what's been happening with the crypto space and the landscape in the uh past and especially one or two years uh we can see that things have been very different um the way U I think users have been constructing and also user

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    activities has been constructed are now heavily uh based upon different communities it's not like you know it's not like ethereum has the best technology it's like the ethereum community has the you know most trust in ethereum itself right so we can't say just you know salana has better technology or ethereum has better technology it's it's it's not that case it's like how we have a um you know

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    really good technology products to actually serve the users and the community that we stand for right so um I think um at the end of the day we were realizing that to make sure that we have a smart contract environment that could you know stand for the communities that we do stand for uh which is the you know started with the RCs community and later on uh went to the you know more uh

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    General uh open web community we could say okay we need a specific environment and that we could do optimizations on we could uh build stuff we could um you know make make make different uh you know configurations specifications on and that's why we started to work on something we call later on the the WSL right so there are uh no executions operations on that there are other stuff there are uh AI models running on that as well uh there are uh you know you know a lot of different other uh

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    information related stuff uh but uh I think at the end of the day um projects starting as technical or like technology focus and now um we're shifting to what we call like Mission Focus right so it's kind of like when we look at how Apple does things they they make sure that they um have the best Technologies for the sake of the product and I think that's the you know similar thing here uh we we try to have the best infrastructures for the community that we we stand for and serve for and that's

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    why we we we we have vsn and unfortunately we have L and and near as a supporter to help to boost that uh efficiency and we can see how you know it's been really really helpful in the in terms of data and in terms of you know cost on gas and stuff so yeah that's that's about WSL yeah that's great so um you have I guess like yeah you're right I mean it ter you start with the protocol you build the technology and then eventually the applications come in there um what's sort of like so if someone were to

25. 10:34

    listen to this I um what are the things that you want to see people build on rss3 to there and the valley layer like what are the things like a builder comes in and like I wish if I had the band withd as Joshua yourself like somebody somebody were to build this and and and you know you guys would would love it right that would be that' be nice to nice to think about uhhuh um I think in

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    general we don't really uh see you know the the data sub or the value sub as like really separate stuff right so want to see okay things utilizing or like products utilizing both of them at the same time so that makes it more that that makes more sense right if it's like a pure defi application you might want to go to you know a different chain um so what we have been uh focusing on um I think there are three different aspects the first part is about how the value

27. 11:25

    supper could bring or like could become an additional crypto economy layer for existing open web activities for example um the traditional RCS has been long missing way for economic circulations right I think I think this is one of the core reasons why it was in a way losing against centralized uh services and I think uh by looking at the you know number of users there are still I think

28. 11:53

    a billion or even more users using R RSS every day right there are podast there so many different I think uh audience listening to this podcast are probably using RCS as well um and um I think this is the first thing that we really want to emphasize on is like how can we bring crypto technology or especially economies uh to the existing open web ecosystem if that's going to happen that

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    means that we can bring the next millions or like tens of millions of users from the open web to crypto as well and in a way we can revive or Revitalize the whole RSS for the open web uh ecosystem because it was long missing this part right this is the first thing that we really want to focus on um the second thing we do focus on is how uh a transparent and open AI models have been bu right uh I think n has been talking about this a lot and also you know lots of projects lots of you know special projects within we 3 has been

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    talking about it a lot and also Elon mask has been focusing on open ey like the open part of open ey right um so there are so lot things that could be done here in the area uh there are verifiable and reproducible models um there are stuff like traceable uh data source for for models to be trained with and these are the kind of things that we want to see uh more often on the on the WSL as uh that we don't really see like vsl as a purely economic environment but

31. 13:20

    it's a trustless decentralized computation environment for anyone to be deploying stuff on and once again uh because of the uh I think because of near uh and the da solution be powering the WSL so the gas cost is really low for anyone to do data related stuff on it so there are uh teams that we know working on it on the WSL and uh I think it's been doing pretty well and of course lastly um it's the basic

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    infrastructures on the Chain so we don't really focus on defi or anything but we we want to make sure that the basic ones are there right there there has to be decks there had to be liquidity you know essential liquidity for the for the chain to be running and also uh there are um you know different researchers within our team to see how we can even uh further boost the efficiency and the um you in know way

33. 14:10

    the capability of the chain and these these you know collectively these three stuff are the things that we have been focusing on and and more importantly we want people to be building upon yeah and may maybe just to add in in terms of the maturity of the network if you could give us a timeline of when did main net go live uh I saw you guys have a that's liquid and then for where the developers

34. 14:32

    are at how how much is being built and where are you guys hoping to go with that of course um so the the the development of of ARS as we started in 2021 we had a you know relatively centralized test in by the end of 2021 and then in February this year there was Alpha Minette so Alpha Minette uh was there and then betam main uh got released in I think in May right it was you know several weeks ago together with the near da Solutions um and um so

35. 15:06

    what's going to happen is that in July there's going to be production main it very likely and that that's going to be a time when we say okay the RS fre Network itself you know it reaches a level of maturity where it could be um relatively decentralized it it's capable of what we have been you know wishing for what we have been expecting and also at the same time uh I think it's going

36. 15:31

    to be really powerful in terms of what we do right that's that's that's July and at the same time uh also it's likely in July we're going to have a really big announcement as well uh so it's even you know in a way bigger than RS we t uh so that we could better help accelerate the course of the open map nice Alpha it's it's July so it's it's a month from here um we t asked this to a lot of sort of people that come in I know that like CH abration

37. 16:03

    means different things for different people um so we had Erica in the podcast where she talked about Community right I mean then we talk about you know with rushi was like doing a move chain on on top of top of ethereum um what does that mean mean for you guys uh I guess like what does chain abstraction mean for um for RSS 3 in general not the value chain one um I think this is a really good um question here because we do we we in a

38. 16:33

    way RG3 itself is a project for protocol exraction you know in a way right because we do look at so many different decentralized protocols and try to make sure that when users and developers are interacting with them they don't feel it right they they just feeling like okay this everything is is is is the same thing uh it's really easy to use I think it's the same thing for chain abstraction so you know personally I I can't you know represent everyone in the

39. 16:57

    team but like personally for me um it feels like chain abstraction is important as if um you know if we are actually looking at um what we call Mass adoption for users right all of the users worldwide um they they would not be like us where they could you know learn about 10 different chains uh 10 different ecosystems how to switch different chains how to switch different wallets that's going to be too much so what's going to happen is that most likely we want to make sure that um

40. 17:27

    there is a certain entry point and a certain interaction point where users can simply be interacting with that one thing and but the but but but at the same time it's powered by so many different chains so um that way uh I think that's one of the you know my understanding for chain abstraction where there are so many different chains but uh you only need one of them to be interacting with and to get all the powers that's beneath that's my understanding I I think I think that's what you guys has been

41. 18:00

    doing uh and and if I remember correctly you guys are the are the first one to actually come up with the with the thesis and the concept of chain abstraction so uh yeah yeah I think there's a lot of good there's a you know they Evergreen um I think they used to be connects so they they actually like were the first ones to kind of claim it but the thing is like we've been we've been the first one

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    to to kind of be like hey let's just take it and make it make it available um and we saw that problem coming from like I guess um just seeing like building near da is going to be like oh there's going to be l2s uh there's going to be a lot of l2s um i' love to take get your take on um you know social I mean we we've started you mentioned a little bit about social apps uh at the beginning um we're seeing now you know

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    lens lens like coming to ZK sync getting getting bigger uh foraster is the same thing with like the deun chain going going popping up uh what's your stance on this I guess like um what are the next steps that that people are likely to see in Social um I think I just I just read a read an article on like the decentralized social related activity has been hitting a history low Point uh

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    in the past month right um there you know initially there was steam there was Hive And Then There came diesel a lot of different Innovations uh in 2020 there was there was mirror as one of the you know pioneers and and um then we got lens we got forecaster I think um by the time um well let's put a different way so uh when we were starting RC 3 we had this uh thesis that there will be code existing so many different uh social

45. 19:46

    protocols at the same time they serve different communities but they are open and permission and decentralized because that's the that's the requirement of web 3 so um at the moment we can see that there are so many Innovations going on um I would imagine in 3 to 5 years there there will be three different systems coexisting in the in the web3 social landscape so there's going to be the one that's um that's created uh purely based on the web three Community uh you know

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    forecaster and Lind are are the top examples you can see how they have their core supporters and the course supporters will be gathering more people uh the the the the characteristics is that they will be having the most uh average values uh from every user because you know their users are trading users their users are are are you know DF users but at the same time they will be hitting a bottleneck uh when that's that's you know that's that's that that group of people got to its limit right

47. 20:52

    so there's there's certain you know a million two million people who are actually concerned or actually interested in decentralizing as a a decentralized social and as core we three users so this is the first part the second system would be the web two system where users are bridged uh onto web three or like onto decentralized Technologies I think one of the example is telegram right they have Tong uh what's what what they're doing is that

48. 21:17

    they have you know a couple million hundred millions of users and they say okay we are bridging them to the tong chain this is something other people can't do you can't just say okay uh I'm third party I want to bridge the telegram users to my that's not possible so that's that's the web to in a way that's the web to approach and also I think there's going to be the third uh system as the what we call the open web approach where the existing open you

49. 21:40

    know website web page and and you know RSS all of these kind of users would be added with a layer of of value and then these users could be brid because these users don't really belong to anyone and socially these users are much more decentralized than the first group of user which are We Three core users there are pretty clear hierarchies in the web Three core users but there are not that not that much in in in in the existing

50. 22:05

    open web users so that's going to be U another group of people and I think these three group of people will be forming different systems and the systems would coexist within the whole social landscape and then um I think initially uh the world like in general uh the world hasn't um quite recognized the values for decentralized Technologies in in terms of social itself um I think it's like clean energy

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    which takes a relatively long time for people to recognize and also even governments to you know make laws to say okay you have to use clean energy you have to be decentralized when we building something like social media platforms because these are this should be public good right and think that's that's where social is going just to maybe pay you back on that I saw in the vision uh paper on your website rss3 you mentioned I would assume that would fall

52. 22:57

    into this latter group uh social recommendation system open social aggregator and a Content search engine um maybe if you could just speak a little bit to whichever one you know you might be most excited about or if anyone's building these already uh what that's looking like um so I'm going to just uh talk about uh I think probably two of these right so the first one is about content uh search enges right so uh search enges traditionally what Google does is that it goes around the

53. 23:30

    the internet and goes to so many different websites so let's imagine there's a 1 billion websites they want to cover right there much more than that they they want to cover one billion websit most of the website would be under the format of HTML but if we want to do search engines for uh the web 3 space not in terms of the trading related information but in terms of of the decentralized information it's going to be very different so that's going to

54. 23:55

    be um 12 different produ we a million content on each one of them right so the task is really different uh we we do have that it's called hot.it it's it's an ecosystem product it's called hot.it Uh you can search for anything it's across uh things like activity PP masteron across uh lens across forecaster across mirror across so many different protocols and it can cross search these stuff just like you do with Google and websites so this is this is one of the things and the other one I really want to talk about um so

55. 24:29

    this this is like the first one the first time for me to talk about this publicly is an upcoming ecosystem application called f so utilizes lots of the infrastructure that we bu and it uh allows you to get information um from web one web two and web 3 at the same time uh and in a way it's kind of like it's kind of like an application where the first uh tab would be social Rel stuff it looks like Twitter and the S one be looks like Tik Tok and the third one look like YouTube and the last one would look like Instagram where it

56. 25:02

    Aggregates all the information uh so you don't have to go to different applications we imagine that in in the future when you know um apps are open when Protocols are open um there would be a new paradigm where users and applications won't be uh differentiated by what kind of content they can offer but how they offer this content because right now it's gated right right so Twitter can't offer Instagram information but uh we believe in the future that's going to be different and and and applicants will be competing against each other just by how well they

57. 25:37

    deliver the content and how well they deliver user experiences um f is one of the first applications trying to do that it's got an information browser where it allows you to browse any information web one web2 web3 all out there um and also that one's going to be live in July for Alpha test as well yeah July is going to be big for us that's that would be that would be on that would be on Main net I guess right

58. 26:00

    that's that's yeah that would be on Main yes that's cool um okay that's so you you you get this basically layer where you can aggregate all this information and you can build sort of like pretty much economic incentives around it right that's kind of the that's kind of how I think about it that's pretty cool um how I saw you guys did I mean basically um had a maybe some like a research side on this where you were you were trying to do something on the open Agent open Agent um sort of framework uh

59. 26:39

    love to love to hear more about that I guess that makes sense to me now that like you if you aggregate all this information you can actually programmatically build you know uh agents to agent to do something for you on on the on the value lay um but love to hear more about that and and uh absolutely yeah um yeah it started when we were the first team to bridge we3 information to the chat gbt plugins when

60. 27:03

    there were plugins at the beginning um and then we started to realize as Elon says that we have so many aggregating information we could potentially do more right so we started working with that was the time when we started work with different teams for example lens we had the lens co-pilot very early uh we you know this is this is where the you know what we call the interoperability for

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    decentralized social magic you know that that that comes up you can tell the your your lens co-pilot to say okay look at the you know Holdings of my fans and my followers and come up with something that would excite them right this is something that wasn't possible with Twitter or anything before uh within a close system but that was that was something at the beginning and then we

62. 27:48

    in a way we abstracted that uh framework and we took it out and say okay we could probably use it uh for any of the blockchains and doesn't have to be a decentralized social protocol it doesn't really have to be a decentralized gaming it could be anything and that's uh that's sort of like the start we we we actually like like the foundation and the team the core contributors were

63. 28:12

    talking about the possibilities where we build one ourselves but uh that seemed to be a bit more Petty than who we are so we decided to just make it open source and other teams just to package it and and beaut it so uh right now what it does is that you can put any of the large language models in and that language model just got turned into a nonchain agent right so it gets access

64. 28:36

    to information across different chains uh it can do basic executions for you uh transfers uh you know swaps and some of the stuff you can Define for yourself we call them experts uh where you can you know as an open source developer you can do you can contribute experts you can say okay this one does um I don't know does defy the other one does gaming and then the LM would be empowered to do

65. 29:01

    their execution as well uh and well by the end of the day we we open sort of all of them and there are I think two or three products built upon it uh yeah that's the that's and also they are happening on on on Val ler as well yeah that's super cool um no that's that's great to that's great to hear that here uh we have obviously on the near side we've been working a lot of sort of like the open any like open AI basically definitely uh there's definitely something more there um so

66. 29:35

    before we before we hop off um is there anything that you know we should probably highlight that that uh that's coming soon that we might have missed um and then you know we can um obviously you know maybe you can talk about a little bit about like the the near the integration that's always good for us obviously for the um course that's something I I do want to emphasize yeah that's something I do want want to emphase because I do get a lot of

67. 29:58

    questions uh investors uh you know peer startup Founders uh you know especially technical Founders would do we ask why we chose near as as a partner and supporter for for da right because they they would easily find out that there are you know different providers for da and uh I think um you know by the look of it you would say okay it's the same for everyone but actually you know

68. 30:23

    beneath I think there was an really good article on how near da would be winning out of against other Solutions um you know data throughput uh you know other stuff that we actually cared about and uh I think by the end of the day there are two things that's really important about when finding um a DA solution especially with with near and also with Al now enough uh I think um it's first

69. 30:47

    of all is that the technical stability and the ability to execute I think um it's different when you look at a marketing material then when you're actually engaging and talking with the dev team and say okay these people these guys actually know what they're talking about these guys actually know uh you know what's the best for uh us you know for example vs as a road up what's

70. 31:11

    important for us right so this is one of the uh really important things to uh to to make that decision is that they are technically really strong and we we can we can be very much assured that there's going to be no problem going on with the integration and whatsoever and secondly uh I think Kate mentions this more than I do but I think it's the people right so we want to make sure

71. 31:35

    that at the end of the day we're working with the people that we trust working with the people that we are we are comfortable with uh and working with the people that we believe are on the same Mission as we do because um I think I got to be very honest here um near is one of the very few products that actually talk about the open WAP out there in crypto this is just simply the the simply what's happening right so when we are trying to say okay if we do

72. 31:59

    an open web narrative if we do an open web ecosystem landscape you know kind of diagram what kind of project are we going to see what kind of project actually advocating for something that's a better internet a better you know open web uh and N has been here for a really long time advocating for this and I think this is this is really important for us because we want to make sure that we understand what we're building for um

73. 32:23

    what community we stand for and also why we're fighting so so that's I think collectively um is is something that that that got us to make the decision to you know go with near with from a very early stage and try to say okay when we actually deliver vsl we have to make sure this is happening with here but uh yeah for for anyone who's beating a I I highly recommend uh if you run into any problem you can always go to out or even

74. 32:48

    go to us because we uh we we're pretty familiar with technology as as well you guys did a great job and we the feedback has been that like fra that's these guys know what they're doing so it's it's nice to when these Integrations happen like we have kind of teams that like oh well we understand what they do they understand what we do like it's absolutely yeah absolutely yeah you don't have to explain like it is amazing to work with them this is what modularity brought like I I was just

75. 33:12

    gonna write a tweet about it today is like you know you have you have a bunch of like great teams come in like it's also chain abstraction obviously right like all these tier one teams you can actually work with these tier one teams because you know like there's this mod modular thing that we can easily be part of your stack and we all win right so that's that's kind of been great in terms of um in terms of like how I saw

76. 33:35

    these things iny in this cycle there's still kind of tribalism but it is it is less than it used to be uh which is absolutely yeah so just to just to wrap up uh we shorten time like um what else people should know more about rss3 Val where people can go what people should try anything that you know like people should take in the new yor community cuz this is like predominantly a new yor podast yeah of course there's other folks like I've been hearing people like

77. 34:05

    pinging me oh I want to be part of this podcast because it seems cool so um love to love to hear uh before um so I think one things that we are always hiring so if you are uh interested in working with the team interested in building open information open web uh feel free to you know come to the career side and try to see what we're looking for uh if you're a talent you know what you're doing it doesn't have to be a position that we list on the website just come to me shoot me an

78. 34:30

    email uh DM on Twitter of course uh and also uh I I can't just say okay try any specific application because other apps would be mad at me but uh as an infrastructure provider we do have lots of listed ecosystem apps for you to try out on rs. so uh do do you know go take a look and uh I think uh lastly if you're interested in the status of the the network itself you can always go to explorer. r. and try to see how many noes are going all uh how many uh tokens

79. 34:59

    are got Stak uh whatever um and one last thing yeah uh so we talked about Google before Google is running a note that's something we're just poish but uh yeah you can go delegate your tokens to to to trust them yeah that's great well thanks um just one thing I wanted to throw in here I think that it's sometimes really helpful for someone a little less in the weeds of what's going on in these you know deep technical uh you know data layer or or the protocol layer abstraction going uh of what's being

80. 35:30

    built to just kind of get your input on how you hope to see the open web the internet of value evolve on like a five-year time Horizon so you had mentioned steam I think that came out in like 2017 it didn't last you know you you have a very unique perspective being at the intersection of both the development of you know web 3 coming to your average person and also the AI component entering that kind of domain on a fiveyear time Horizon what are what would what would be your you know best

81. 36:01

    case scenario for how rss3 rss3 grows and like how the space is a whole evolves of course um I would see rc3 and whatever it turns into to be a Pioneer and also be a I think to be a flag in a way to show that uh people actually cared about building an open web uh people actually cared about building open information and at the same time um The best scenario is that the the the world the internet does get more open than what it what what it's right now right if because it was open at the

82. 36:32

    beginning anything we do would be accessible to all at the beginning but now most of them belongs to private sectors we want to make sure that the power goes back to the people when you post something publicly it belongs to the people and also uh when you profit it belongs to the people as well so that's that's the best thing I want to see awesome that's great I think that's yeah best stand no thanks thanks for hopping on