Movement Labs, Scaling L2s, Chain Abstraction w Rushi Manche

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:00

   Nothing we say here is investment advice, legal advice, life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with. See chain abstract A.com for more information. Hi everyone! This is an abstracted podcast brought to you by Nir Foundation about abstraction. I'm all tan.

2. 0:16

   I'm one of the founders in ecosystem. we just recorded an interesting podcast with, it's Ruchi from movement. it's kind of interesting to talk to someone who comes from, movement. Sort of ecosystem and plugs that into Ethereum. So, had an interesting conversation. Start a bit technical, like how do we how does move work?

3. 0:40

   Why is it different? Why is it secure then that EVM and then even provided some context around the entire rights. Like how this how this near work. I had a great conversation around, you know, starting from tech, diving into what should a founder do to really, build a community and how how to to thrive in crypto in 2024, especially the latest sort of token drops and how there's like, how does, you know, how does this work in the future?

4. 1:05

   Pretty much. Rishi cut our movement. Background's engineering. I think I've always been involved in tech since I was 13 or 14. was early coding, like, distributed systems, and I was, like 15. young engineer for UnitedHealth Group, helping them convert On-prem databases.

5. 1:45

   Cloud. so my early software engineering background was in health insurance, fun fact, which wasn't the most fun thing to do, especially when you had the six biggest company. And there are there under the market share. So not much innovation happening there.

6. 1:59

   But overall was a good first experience into how billion dollar organizations and eventually $1 trillion organization scale. and then I got into the crypto bingo tech three years ago in terms of engineering, this early, like Ethereum, cosmos engineering was always more Russ leaning.

7. 2:16

   I think I always hated solidity. just cause it was really difficult to work with anyone that's ridden solidity or as contributed to early EVM days, knows that it was more of a patchwork fix and wasn't actually meant to scale. and then, yeah, so coding like Kaizen was some other workspace languages that was good, but needed more work. at this point, I was still in college.

8. 2:36

   I went to Vanderbilt with my co-founder, Cooper, who was a few years older than me. and I read this article that said Facebook is building a programing language. and for me, this was like mind blowing because I use like three users on cosmos and ten users on Ethereum.

9. 2:50

   and here was opportunity to have billions of users come to crypto. unfortunately regulation the DM project never worked out. And as I see the SEC this bumped up essentially to leading other ones. that kind of pioneered the move language.

10. 3:05

    and then post FDX out in November 2022. Mini Cooper took a step back and were like, move is really exciting. It is a fast paralyzed VM, but has a security component which gets people excited, right? How do you stop the $4.5 billion loss every year?

11. 3:20

    If you look at this just this week, it's like the week of May 13th, 12th. yeah. Pumped up on the hack. And Sana you had, like, I think this week you might have $150 million worth just this week alone. so I think the thesis proves itself right. I'm. I'm pretty annoying about this on socials.

12. 3:38

    Like, if we ever actually get more than, like, a thousand users on chain, if you ever get, like, your parents on chain, they're not going to want to get hacked for not billion every year. so the thesis behind movement is bringing the principles of DRM into the first movement layer to Ethereum, bring the paralyzed EVM and all the benefits of that, but also, bringing security principles to Ethereum, with the fully decentralized sequencer.

13. 4:02

    How does that process work? So, I guess, like you have, you have paralyze VM, which is move. Right? So, the question is like, how does move work and how do you paralyze move in a in a way, right? I mean, like parallelization for us, like from Nir has always been like paralyze in a horizontal. Not our way.

14. 4:23

    Just like the blockchain versus like for salon, it's always been like, let's just add more in like hardware and hardware so we can process more transactions. Actually, that is kind of a meme, right? Like where, you know, you have a bunch of like transactions failing.

15. 4:37

    So how does that work on then? Love to I love to hear more about that because I, I, I mean, to me move as much as, you know, a lot of people did. Yeah. One of the benefits is actually, we don't really have to work on publishing stuff. block SDM is the main like, consensus engine engine for execute transactions.

16. 4:53

    It's pioneered by the DM program. Is like a paper. You can read about it. It's, block SDM essentially introduce optimistic paralyzation. So having concurrent threads with that execution, having obviously beefy high requirements, but mostly from the VM where you can, essentially queue up transactions, execute them concurrently, and not have to worry about, okay, is this transaction failing and then,

17. 5:15

    arbitrate or transactions when you can predict Solana since we there's two main execution styles with Sonia to manually code the behavior between different transactions. So if you have let's say for example, five transactions going, you have to keep in mind character straights.

18. 5:29

    well but since Sui in the movie itself with the optimistic position transaction order is on manually. So, you know, like done automatically. So as a developer, you don't need to worry about this trade off. So the quick question, we inherit all the work from the DM program with that person. and we bring the execution environment to Ethereum.

19. 5:48

    Let me jump in here real quick. We're getting like. I'm liking this out of the gate. Pretty, pretty technical stuff. This is cool. Question for you for, like, say, someone who's not super technical, is there, like, a way, Yeah.

20. 6:08

    Yeah. Yeah. So nutritional EVM. I'm not sure neo works in this regard, but if you have like ten transactions, you're saying transaction A, wait for that to finish. That should be wait for that transaction. See. So it's like sequential processing which is cool. And you have ten users. But when you get to a thousand users, pretty much every EVM chain breaks.

21. 6:32

    If you look at inscriptions, that's the best case study for this were like arbitrary. I'm guessing both crash a hundred TPS. Any other EVM chain went to gas fees above over $500 a transaction. The only ones that have stagnant were like the move chain Solana near say I think.

22. 6:48

    so there's only 5 to 6 chains can really keep up with the demand of actual volume. which speaks for scale scalability. So go back to your original question. the traditional EVM or Athena virtual machine has sequential processing, which means you're waiting for each transaction finished.

23. 7:04

    well, stale processing is, yeah, multiple threads. The best kind of visual for this is when you're checking out, let's say, like a grocery store, you have one line for the sequential processing. So you're waiting for each person to finish shopping. So if you have like a thousand shoppers, you have to wait a thousand person line.

24. 7:21

    Whereas parallel processing is you have multiple essential like counters. So you have multiple receptionists, multiple, machines, which enables you to not have to wait in the thousand person line. Yeah. Well, it's pretty obvious. Like if you look at, like, arbitrage as you get single market. That's right there. Max CPS -150 TPS.

25. 7:56

    so actually not a thousand. I would say, 200. There's a max again. Do, I'll take your thoughts. you. Amir, as does this differently, right near is like, you know, you you send a transaction, it can go to multiple blocks at the same time.

26. 8:11

    The reason for that is you go to one shard and you say, hey, I want this to be done. That shard produces a chunk that chunks are aggregated to be a block. So what ends up happening is like, that emits a receipt, which then, somebody else takes that and says, hey, this needs to happen on the next shard so it can still go like, you know, 1 or 2 transactions, 1 or 2 blocks away from that original transaction.

27. 8:37

    which is interesting. Right? I mean, it has this sort of like, async await kind of design pattern, for, for writing blocks. So that's kind of how the first. dude. That's really interesting. Cool. It's really helpful for me to, like, kind of frame the stuff on, like, that level.

28. 8:51

    So as we talk deeper into it, and then you talk about that, like inscription model, I remember like, yeah, I remember that like a few months ago everything was dropping inscriptions. And it really challenge a lot of chains. Do you think stuff like that like, is that just the first use case that's going to challenge these chains going forward?

29. 9:05

    And then like just is it just general scale or scale user scalability? My mindset was like. It's a stress test, right? Inscription itself is an edge case. Not actually much innovation happening there. Just people spamming like NFT minting.

30. 9:20

    But it's more of saying, like when this chain is tested with thousands of users and thousands of transaction, what tech actually holds up to the claims everyone claims are scalable for billion users. Everyone runs around saying we're onboarding the masses.

31. 9:36

    Okay, here are the masses now who survives and pretty much every EVM chain didn't survive. Nero was one that was actually alive and actually had a pretty vibrant, inscriptions community. but I'm sure also can explain more to me.

32. 9:51

    Yeah. We've had, like, a good amount of inscriptions, and, you know, the ends up happening. It was like it was a state blow up. And in some of the, archival nodes or something, because, like, they were just, like, spamming, but, like, the protocol itself was just still kind of, plus, in transactions.

33. 10:09

    That happened there. Yeah. Yeah. guess I have this specific question. So this this is an abstracted. Right. Like the way we think about it is, you know, you have all these modular blockchains, which I think like now you up and then there's going to be like op ties machines you have like a polygon.

34. 10:27

    And then yeah, there actually are chains. they guess like is this how you thinking about movement as like movement becomes like, how does that mechanics work for you? in terms of thinking about, like, move as an up movement as an L2 and then kind of this ecosystem of movement.

35. 10:50

    orbital orbit, OpenStack, CDK, and like, for the ones coming live, different, all frameworks. And then you have like, eight other dealers. Some are better than others, but still a lot of competition. and no one's really innovating execution there. I wouldn't say, but rather user role framework user day and the slap the even.

36. 11:08

    To me, that's like you're customizing the chassis of the car, giving it the best wheels, giving you like like the cool like the cool turbine. And then a V2 engine. And it'd be like, why is the car slow? so I think the way we're exploring is just saying we're not gonna innovate. Real framework dealer.

37. 11:24

    There's people in a brand that we're purely for execution. How do we make sure that, the small countries are running? How do you make sure the transaction executing are executing fast and securely? so with that, we have the move stack where anyone can launch whatever framework rob they want.

38. 11:41

    So you can use open stack, use, Celestia Aragon, whatever for de nio for de and then use our VM for execution. And I cut to the show sequencer. So we already have like some written roll ups live in the next 3 or 4 weeks. they're using OpenStack orbital from orbit, polygon, CDK and from a business point of view, it's pretty attractive because we're not competing with anyone.

39. 12:01

    We're pretty much the only one in the space provides execution layer kit. So it's actually like net positive dev. One essentially can say like you can keep existing tech stack, keep your polygon alignment, keep your SLAs, the alignment, whatever you need. But just use a faster and better VM.

40. 12:15

    so so far the business development has been pretty good from that, from. like, there's no movement stack, per se. It's more like, the execution there. I provide a move VM to copy stack and stack so you don't. yeah. You got a shared sequencer. Okay.

41. 12:30

    Because of that, I see. So, so your shared execution is kind of like one op plasma and all the other ones that kind of do. So everybody sequences at the same time, I guess. Right. So that's okay. Okay. Interesting. so in that world, how does like in abstract it looks like then, right?

42. 12:48

    I mean movement. So using the movement sequence. does that allow you movement all of a to do something with movement or will it be. have, like, you have raw pair or be communicating with one block explorer. you can essentially do if IO decks or Robin or book and Rob, you can do swaps between them, which is very exciting.

43. 13:17

    and then I think both from that like talking to the like Kim Sax is very exciting to me. Right. You had like the Dia, which is a bit innovated. You have shared sequencers and innovated. You have executions with innovated and there's this realm between application and infrastructure industrials that could you look at every layer of a stack.

44. 13:33

    It's pretty much been funded. Bottoms up. Like you had all these dealers backgrounds, you had shared sequencers with rounds and then you had execution layers raise rounds. And the chain abstraction world is still pretty untouched.

45. 13:46

    I think near is probably leader in terms of making some narrative and, kudos to you guys for that. But there still is a lot to be done. Where my vision is. There's two sides. There's users change abstraction as developer to an abstraction.

46. 13:58

    On the user side, it's like when I using Uniswap on a single app infrastructure, I don't know what layer two or level one I'm using. It's just I can be like, I want to do a swap from Arbitron to optimism, not worry about token status, not worry about who's being involved. and do swaps for that side.

47. 14:15

    So in movement, what we're saying is we're going to have a unified executioner with the same token standards. so if you see a Dex on Rob A and moving system and Dex and will be whether it's OpenStack, overtone, CDK, whatever, it's the same token standard that can be swapped between different rollups, which solves a lot of issues with abstraction. The second thing we're seeing is abstraction developer level, right?

48. 14:37

    Right now, if you if you're a Web3 developer coming to the ecosystem, there's about 100 different classes. You have a near CLI, you have Alan Clia there IntelliJ which makes it really difficult to use. Right. so it'd be really interesting to see a kind of like chain abstracted CLI where you can be like Mir deploy dash, dash or some new deploy dash dash optimism.

49. 14:59

    I have one centralized CLI for any deployments, actually, chain signatures, in a way, is tries to do that. Like, basically chain signatures. It's just an NPC that is, that is like mere validators. Will. Will, you know, who will opt in and say, hey, like, you can actually drive an arbitrary address using any your account, right?

50. 15:19

    So then what's happening is like you just basically send it to a smart contract saying, hey, give me this arbitrary address and I'm going to deploy smart contracts at. Right. that's kind of how like we're thinking about it, which, which which makes sense on the developer side.

51. 15:42

    Revolution is about to start coming. You know, all the infrastructure's here. There's that chasm. And then boom, we're going to have products and apps. You using all this really awesome infrastructure, the chain abstracted layer like you said. So the apps will basically connect to that.

52. 15:54

    And then that chain structure will solve a lot of the is it two roll ups talking to each other or whatever all that stuff is. Then you can layer in basically an AI agent can self route all that as well. Correct. Or is that not even are we not even at the point yet where we can start thinking like, I I'm not an expert, so I probably that's on us. That's why I'll talk to that. but I do think it'd be interesting.

53. 16:27

    There's, like, I've seen, like, I liquid reagents where, there's a few DeFi builders saying like, oh, we're gonna do a cross-chain, essentially liquidity aggregator thing like Jupiter, but with the ideas. But then, so if there's a better transaction, let's say on top of like optimism with overturned for getting yield on my if I could do it automatically there's like automated market makers which is interesting.

54. 16:49

    I think the intense would probably be the first evolution of the AI. there's a company called Shogun. disclosure. I'm an investor where they're like, how a major one inch where they have liquidity connectors, a bunch of different tools.

55. 17:02

    if you deploy smart contract or if you want to essentially trade a meme coin, it'll rattle liquidity between like optimism arbitrage, etc.. within one interface. moving on to the movement side, I guess. you said you've excited, you know, been benefits, but, like, user and development side. how do you guys see? How do you see yourself?

56. 17:21

    I guess I guess you have the, what would be the end game for, movement, for chain abstraction. Like, do you have any ideas as to how movement rollups would interact with, let's say, other rollups or L1 and L2? And how do you see that?

57. 17:47

    it's more of like, yeah, we're probably eventually kind of doing vibes for us. We're prioritizing it. We're looking to have it sooner too. Mean that as close as possible. likely this year. So the share sequence is actually close to the small A because we have low transaction fees on Ethereum because we're obviously next gen. so the sequencing fees aren't that lucrative for us.

58. 18:06

    and then B, we believe in a world where everyone has the decentralized sequence where if you talk about regulation point of view, share, then it's happen eventually. But more so like Tokenomics point of view. Right? Most L2 tokenomics today I mean coins, reset governance tokens without actually valid. Cool.

59. 18:23

    When you actually have decentralized and share sequences of voting and staking method where validators stake the token for sequencing layer two. So is built in economic by pressure. and going on to the obvious question of like where we see traction, I think we're probably the 1st May roll prioritizing sure sequence here.

60. 18:39

    So you'll have the movement network in its associate chains. Yeah. Like arbitrage network where they come live and optimism. You have all these different layer teams with their own kingdom essentially, but their own network of narratives. The question is those are all the countries how you connecting them.

61. 18:51

    All right. You can say, oh bridge so layer zero wormhole etc.. But no one likes using bridges. Obviously you can have shared sequence theories, but from a business point of view, I don't want to use optimism, sequencer and optimism. This is my sequence.

62. 19:05

    Why would they get the fees? etc.. So there's this world where like you need like a composability layer connecting all these missions concerns. so that's where it gets interesting. We're not on stage probably where we can like give a glimpse of that was a few teams can explore. I think node kit is interesting team that's doing like a composability layer.

63. 19:25

    essentially trying to connect all the features you consider that could be interesting. and eventually it's on a roadmap. But once we get our protocols live, we want to build a messaging protocol where, maybe it's like dual staking.

64. 19:36

    So let's say you have a optimism node in a super chain and the movement node and they don't do to share security. So it's kind of like, message in that sense. We're moving the net and move node operators take up an op node operators and movement. And then essentially they can validators network.

65. 19:53

    And then a very similar idea at that point where you can actually connect all these different sequences. it's very experimental and probably years out, but I think that's the end game for the shared sequencer Kingdom route. That's cool. Yeah.

66. 20:06

    We tried to do that with, like, we're actually, like, kind of built in on testnet, which is the near fast finality layer, essentially, just like it was the state for Alto's. but it's still kind of still need some work. I mean, it is great to get that shared state.

67. 20:21

    that's definitely the like Agora is trying to do the same thing, you know, like all of those folks. Yeah. So. I would just say the EVM is the best example, right? Like, is there any other parts of the stack where teams are voluntarily choosing to not upgrade for sake of profit? So, and there's a few different examples, like, yeah, pure marketplaces.

68. 21:19

    Right. In theory, like if you just have one centralized node generating proofs, that's much more lucrative than decentralized CPU. Marqués. pretty much the answer. Your question is I think that's centralized right now. There's actually very little economic incentive to ever decentralize there.

69. 21:32

    Like even blast is like some multi-sig, and there's not much economic incentive to really decentralize it because of like $2 billion in TVL. and the real answer is that users don't care. Users don't care what kind of proofs you have, I have a question around, so we had a we had a podcast with, with Erica, who was just, like, just a queen of coming communities.

70. 22:38

    Okay? Like, she's just, like, basically connected with everyone she knows. Like people from cosmos, people from Ethereum, from near, in a, an abstract area, if you're coming from a move sort of, ecosystem getting into a sort of Ethereum sort of ecosystem, how how does that feel?

71. 22:54

    And once you're kind of like taken straight.

72. 25:02

    what are the apps that you want to see on movement today? that, you know, if people are watching like, you know, what's the and that's one. And then second is like, what is enabled by movement that is currently not possible Yeah.

73. 25:18

    So short term, really focus on security, right? Every year, $4.5 billion lost is more contracts and tactical abilities. The question is, how do you create the secure hub for on chain defined metrics and a theorem. So if I execute a smart contract and says, hey, does integer overflow attack, attack, attack by to attack.

74. 25:36

    and even right now that's not possible to stop that essentially goes runtime, it gets executed, and you have this large scale attack that we saw this week, especially, and then over time that creates this sense of like insecurity and like, if I'm a retail developer, I don't have the ability to trust my systems.

75. 25:53

    So short term movement wants me to secure DeFi hub for a theorem. with move. Yeah. Form replication. What in the VM, we stop over 90% of attack vectors you see in crypto today, like entity integer overflows. That's all stuff at runtime.

76. 26:06

    Essentially, it's a firewall for crypto built into the runtime itself. And long term, like the answer is quickly Facebook built this language. It's literally the language of Facebook designed. So when people ask me like, how do you get Facebook on chain? My responses use the language that Facebook built.

77. 26:22

    so we're seeing that consumer we have like move with friends, which is some kind of trading social trading app that launched like a few days back. we have like some battleship games. So we're seeing like it's actually a world for a movement to be the hub for consumer apps on Ethereum, where you're not limited by the execution, by like, you're seeing base based obviously has a strong code base brand, but when you actually use base, is high gas fees involved? It's pretty bad user experience.

78. 26:47

    so we're able to bring like sound like trade experiences on like UX to Ethereum. That's great. I mean, it is interesting how this involved. Is it on you guys that does movement, like, move, move it. them on on Ethereum? Or is there someone else, by the way, that's working on same.

79. 27:11

    I. and initially they also do something similar to support move. But on cosmos, it's like a like it's called cell one. And their ropes atop it, were pretty much the only move up to other market and most poorly it's even compatible movie.

80. 27:26

    so I would say it's less of a better move, more a bet on next gen virtual machines and movies a feature of it, not necessarily the brand itself. this allow move. movement alt who's to be sort of like compose in a sense with Aptos and Sway and all the other rune chains.

81. 27:44

    How does that work? Like, is it just, do you do you need to do anything from your side or how does that work? But this is helpful here. So we were close to that. so investors and a user, and we have some fun right now and say, I would say like generally the thesis is they want move adopted elsewhere.

82. 28:00

    We believe move is a framework for secure programing. So the question is how do you work together to build a narrative. and so far we've seen as like let's say your defy. You want to go question you want to be on layer one, adopt us and three it's much quicker.

83. 28:14

    and you don't deal with the theme issues, but you also want a theme, liquidity to bring in even methods. so we're seeing like protocols like Tala kind of multi-chain and get the benefits of a fast UX. native app doesn't need ones while having Ethereum security.

84. 28:28

    So I wouldn't say it's a bridge from layer once layer to because that's not what we are. I would say that's more wormhole layer zero. I would say it's more of a unified execution. Layers bringing the narrative together like the EVM became so broadly adopted.

85. 28:41

    Yes, Ethereum, but also like every other EVM chain, like by a smart chain avalanche arbitrage, optimism moral. Even so, that creates sticky mindshare apps and users and developers. so trying to do something similar with the moving system.

86. 29:10

    like we're fully compatible. So it takes ten minutes to deploy Uniswap on top of us or any smart contracts. I would say the main trade offs is like, some of infertility takes some time to adopt because you have different characteristics in different opcode management.

87. 29:26

    so like, for example, like fireblocks or like, like explorer or like you think like is one area founders don't pay attention to. Now after you've gone through the process of raising all that, that they should founders are often out of touch. They're like, obviously they'll go like, stamping is cool.

88. 29:51

    PhD, build this cool tech, give them invest. And they're like, okay, we're doing it now. but what the the bullets hacked then about if we if I build this cool stack, they'll come. This is that. That's not how it works at all. You can have the best blockchain, the fastest. No secure, end to end, perfect user experience, and no one can use it.

89. 30:08

    so, like, it's about being active on social media, like doing things like this podcast where you explain the vision, connecting with other people, The financiers of venture capitalists, like you think of as like politicians and people back then. and it's actually alliances you have with different, countries.

90. 30:42

    So like, for example, I'm like pretty close to bear guys. And like, we have community that's kind of overlapping. and then you have like, it's like all these are cabals with like, different voices that don't like each other and like different firms and different protocols on, like, each other.

91. 30:56

    So it's ultimately a game of politics, and crypto is a game of attention. So how do you build this tech narrative community ecosystem that compiles the strength of your sovereign nation, and then bill alliances with other ecosystem projects so that your geopolitical power increases, which in turn increases the GDP, which in this case is a token price action.

92. 31:16

    that's a pretty like large scale egalitarian and, take but it's kind of true. Right? You're managing community, managing essentially an economy. and founders that don't really make in a space don't think about that. And just like I'm just going to build this chain, maybe get a Dex and call it a launch token, and then nothing actually happens.

93. 31:44

    Risk. Risk? Yeah. Right. That is so fun, man, I love strategy, like my strategy game. So that's what's a. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even with things like, I mean, I don't know, just thinking about, like, this, this Cornell professor did, theory on I was game, the game theory sort of practice of, like, running strategies between, tit for tat game.

94. 32:26

    And it is kind of interesting to see like if, if, if somebody is defecting, right, you actually defect, you get like one one. But if somebody is actually not collaborating with you and you actually, you know, you actually try to collaborate, you actually the one that is losing. Right.

95. 32:40

    But I think a lot of folks like in this cycle, I've seen like more like let's collaborate in this collaborate which gets like, you know, gets forth like it's a good outcome for, for each. so we were talk about like with, with with Erica as well. Right. Like I think as the market grew, I think there's more collaborations.

96. 32:57

    one thing on this part I think it's very important to mention is like when I got into near protocol and in 2022, we were pretty much, like, positions ourselves, like, as an L1, right? Like, which is kind of like, oh, you know, like, hey, this is a scalable one, you know? But then people start to be like, well, then you're like Ethereum.

97. 33:17

    People start to recognize your in killer there's a lot of these chains that, like, will die on this. Or the originator that three years ago. Yes. 3 or 4 years ago. Everyone can mark this almost a theorem killers and even tell you like people like L1 generally are priced higher. You see these large L1 raises and token prices.

98. 33:34

    but in practice it's, it's it's more of a collaboration. Right. What this more important than de modularity and this whole narrative kind of brought in is the ability for partnerships alliances to be more prominent. In the past, it was like I'm going to build my own.

99. 33:49

    Oh, the only partnerships are bridges and info providers, and I'm going to flood every other layer one, they exists. And now it's like, okay, yeah. Layer one. layer two, how do we work together? How do we bring together different pieces?

100. 34:01

     which is kind of where I get to my integrated narrative, where like in that there's like two camps you have like a monolithic camp, which is like, we're going to build this little one, we're going to build ecosystem L1, and we're going to be the best. So one and everyone else can go to hell. And yeah, there's other like kind of integrated and modular ecosystem.

101. 34:17

     I think we're going to work with different providers, swap out different pieces, use the compilers provers, use different like execution layers, and then find solution that my community needs. and I was an argument like last week with like Logan and we were arguing like what scales the most.

102. 34:33

     And my simple answer to this was, okay, slabs can spend the next 6 to 12 months and there are great engineering team. They'll have some phenomenal innovations. But the innovation from a thousand or like hundreds of engineering teams combined will simply outpace a monolithic engineering department just by numbers.

103. 34:52

     It's one labs entity versus thousands. and simply that scales. And that's how we get to innovation. this kind of but when you go on to like traditional web2 innovation, you can think of like car manufacturing, it was never like Ford made all the pieces.

104. 35:09

     That's how they sort off. Yes. But then eventually they kind of started outsourcing parts. Engine was made by someone, Goodyear, the tires. And that's how they were able to scale. and that's where blockchains are today. And I'm glad Nero's on the right side of the coin.

105. 35:32

     Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. I think it's a near, like, news. Kind of. I want to show your bags now where it's like, you guys have kind of reached the point about being the face of AI, especially with news branding. That helps that whole eligos background.

106. 35:56

     But, you guys are pushing for these new narratives that no one's really thought of. so kudos to you guys and kind of making the right choice in that regard. And we did it with. I mean, we did it with, like, a very focused group of folks, right? I mean, like, it's kind of that as a whole sort of mentality. Switch.

107. 36:12

     And, like, from the bear market to, like, actually, you know, all of that. So I mean, yeah, kudos to spin is one of the like I mean, yeah, I'm saying this mean a public smartest minds folks I've ever met. but cool. Yeah. so I guess we have a couple more minutes.

108. 36:28

     I'd love to love to just kind of like, get your closing thoughts around, like, what's next for movement? how can people learn more about movement? and, you know, what are the things that you want to see in the future?