Nuffle pod w Vaibhav Chellani from Socket

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:02

   chain Abra you that from anywhere satisfaction so what chain abstraction should do is be is enable application centricity meaning if I if I want to swap there's only one variable I care about which is my output amount everything else should be bigged into it I I shouldn't need to worry about if my transaction is going to land or not I shouldn't need to worry about if my bridge is going to land or not I shouldn't need to worry about if I have a feat nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or

2. 0:34

   representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstracted tocom for more information love to hear a story like how did you jump into crypto I know that Su has been a longtime project so maybe walk me through how you guys started I know everybody has a story with with founding like finding the the the company so what was yours yeah absolutely glad to be here

3. 0:58

   thanks for having me on um going back I think socket started like three years back um going back even like further to BU socket I was first employee at polygon which was called Matic back in the play I was first employee there um so I started really small team we were trying to scale ethereum right really exciting really exciting trying to figure out like how do we do plasma how do we do like a bunch of this other stuff none of that worked out so polygon started building polygon POS while I had this inner URS

4. 1:31

   of like figuring out eum scaling so I find one day someone posted from eum Foundation someone posted that hey guys we have this thing called zero knowledge proofs that zcash has been trying to use for years for privacy but maybe we should use it for scaling instead I was like okay sounds interesting so I built I accidentally buil one of the first uh CK rollup implementations in 2019 with this with this guy I Foundation after which I was convinced that this is how

5. 2:03

   we would we would scale public blockchains in general and after polygon went to minute I joined eum Foundation where I built multiple rollups uh I helped optimism and arbitrum sort of like start from like day Zero and stuff stuff like that but ultimately during my time at eum Foundation what I realized that was that we are we are going to have so many chains it's going to be like incredible amount of effort sort of

6. 2:28

   like having composed ibility across these things and that's why socket started so I think it started with a core belief that whenever there is like Market goes in Cycles between like unbundling and bundling and ethereum is going to go through an unbundling cycle to scale it's it's going to be extremely important for eum to unbundle itself and sort of have a lot of FL UPS which will create this natural demand to bundle things back together and that's what socket's going to do so of course like

7. 2:59

   you know since 2017 2018 whenever it's about you know like connecting or like bundling things together the first thing that comes to mind is cross chain so socket started with the premise that hey let's make it super easy for users to move assets without using any Bridges but instead like a bridge Marketplace or a bridge aggregator of socks so socket has been doing that for the last two and a half years and I would say we've been like incredibly successful at it there

8. 3:25

   are 400 plus applications using socket from teams at openc metamask coinbase to synthetics to poly Market uh a bunch of people use us right 90% of EV wallets use socket today to like move assets across networks then what happened was this role of Boom where you me everyone I know was trying to like you know look at AA being launched every day every application that has any pmf was thinking about launching a ro and like

9. 3:57

   we we live in a world now where we have a lot of right so last December what happened to us was I was I was sitting with my co-founder and we were like hey this chart these these charts look amazing we have we were doing two and a half to3 billion dollar of volume every month uh like everyone was like by by all metrics you were successful but talking to customers talking to users they were not happy so we went back to the drawing board saying like hey what

10. 4:27

    have we missed because it looks like we've like won the battle but lost the wall I don't know if that's the right uh right phrase but but in some ways we were we were successful at solving the problem of like let's say moving assets across networks but it seemed like that's not the problem that was supposed to be solved because people people weren't happy and that's when we started to like talk to more and more people and

11. 4:52

    realize that oh hey what people actually want is chain abstraction and not cross chain and maybe cross chain was like something that people would have accepted if there were like 15 20 chains but not anymore yeah sorry go for it and what's the like what's the difference between people seeing like I guess how do people separate moving assets and chain obstruction like like is there a bridge

12. 5:14

    when you tell people like uh like how would you define that right like I think it's it's one of the things that's it's been like we've been thinking we've been hammering down in this podcast too yeah exactly I think like it's it's one of those things where like you know you you don't get this from users like no no user told me that hey I want CH abstraction like literally it was

13. 5:36

    something like we we caught on to as an Insight because what they told us was hey I have e on base why can't I use that for my application on arbitr MH why do I need to bridge right I think fundamentally that was the uh the like biggest constraint for them and this is just like one example of users wanting chain abstraction so users actually don't want a bridge ultimately and uh I think people would have been fine bridging if there were 15 20 chains but not in this

14. 6:09

    world and chain abstraction essentially enables that you have tighter composability a higher level abstraction that users allow uh that now users can just use the application without caring what chain they allow sorry for the long R but I think that's that's the no it makes sense like I mean you know Henry for talks about the pass horse thing right like if you ask people what they'd

15. 6:31

    want a lot of people want like I I would want to fast Bridge right like if I'm a Bridger let's say yeah I'm GNA be like I just want to put my eth and I want to get my salana I want to spend the salana and I'm out right but I think with chin abstraction it's a bit different right so like that difference is like I guess what you guys call composable but um I'm going to which is quite nice but I'm

16. 6:55

    going to roll back a little bit which is something that I caught up when you we talking about this right so like you mentioned a large number which is like 2.5 to3 billion dollars of volume and almost like you said 400 applications is that correct that I've heard it so like how does a and there's there's a bunch of people that like watch this and like there's entrepreneurs that watch this

17. 7:17

    like what's the kind of mindset for for getting those numbers in first place I know you guys been here for three years and the obviously helps like time and bar Mark helps you to kind of build but what would you recommend folks to kind of like get to those numbers because then you can think about chain OB section obviously but as an entrepreneur like what what both people should think

18. 7:39

    about I mean like it's hard to say what helped us get here but maybe some like quick like two three things that now that I like uh in in all honesty and I'm not not trying to be modest we did not think about this strategically at all now it's it's only now that I like look back and like see these patterns right so I think like a few few things that we did was remove all reasons for people to

19. 8:05

    say no to you MH uh sounds like really obvious uh you know like but a lot of people don't address this like uh like put yourself in the face of your in in the place of your customer and think about why they would say no and eliminate all of them one by one either by a to either either by your product or by like you know uh having some sort of road map to eliminate those things um

20. 8:30

    other thing that we did was um again this is not because we wanted to but because of like scarcity essentially where Founders did the BD uh we had zero BD people on the team me and my co-founder we did the BD and the sales stuff uh and it's ultimately for us it became like one of those like doing BD is quite exciting because you get to like go on calls and like close deals and like makes it happen it gives you like for me gives me the same same taste

21. 9:02

    as I as I got so I'm an engineer by by profession it it doing BD gives me the same taste as having all of my test cases pass so I was just like chasing dopamine you know um and I think all in all like uh talk to your customers of course and you know sort of like uh build what they want so we we could have built a bridge back in the day like two years back there was there were none of these Bridges if if you think about there were other Bridges and we could have launched just another bridge and we would have

22. 9:34

    been massively profitable but we decided to build yeah start wasn't there Wormhole Wormhole was portal was there kind of like people used it kind of like even hop wasn't there you know even Conex wasn't there you know um so we so we sort of like sat in the middle we were like hey you know like users and developers don't actually give a about any of these Bridges what they actually want is get my transaction done as quick as possible as securely as possible and like there are like a bunch

23. 10:03

    of like fundamental reasons on like why like sitting here made more sense than build building a bridge which I won't get into but essentially like really listen to what your people what what what users want first and then think about how to capture value from it okay that makes sense I mean it's very important right like I mean um like you get there sure but what's next so I think like chain abstraction and rather than building a fast horse like let's just build something that like people

24. 10:32

    are not going to like just going to ask for me a bridge so how do you guys think about it like what was your sort of we were in near so like when I was near like we were thinking about it El I kind of like vocally thinking about this too I know kex guys said the first like chain abstraction kind of term um but love to love to hear more about like your thinking from like Hey we're moving assets to this new paradigm of like a I

25. 10:59

    would say like a tree because I'm an engineer by training too it's like this tree that like you can explore a bunch of different uh branches right so um like how do you how do you guys think about then and what are the things that you guys have found out in that process I think like for us it like started with okay um we we knew after assets we wanted to compose smart contracts so that was like always on the plan um but when we sort of like decided to Pivot from like cross chain to chain

26. 11:32

    abstraction first thing that came to mind was how do we make it such that there is no more messaging like what what bridging is for assets data data messaging is for data so how do we make it such that smart contracts in compos without sending messages you know between CHS because like we we found that to be quite a big issue as well if you think about it messaging has been around for like probably like three years at this point there are like zero or maybe

27. 12:03

    like five use five live products out there other than a token bridge that use messaging um now you would ask like why it's because it's hard and like as a developer you don't want to like think about dist like thinking about distributed systems is like genuinely hard that's why like not too many Engineers want to do it yeah exactly it's like super complicated I've like done it multiple times I've lost a

28. 12:28

    good amount of because of it I don't want others to going through it so yeah ultimately what we wanted to do was like make it easy for smart contracts to compose across networks without doing like any of this Ming bits um so yeah when you do that then you have this like platform that on top of which you can build multiple applications chain abstracted swaps chain chain abstracted

29. 12:52

    accounts and a bunch of these things so I think I think we started with this pivot talk to users understanding what are like layers of the stack here and how to attack essentially I mean like you can call this a pivot but you can also call this like a not a pivot I would say like it's more like let's go deeper into I mean first thing the bull like first thing you would do is like if I were to start with the fundamentals how do I move the bridge asset from eth to like near like

30. 13:24

    I like I remember like Rainbow Bridge being like a huge thing where like oh this amazing design like it's an optimistic okay like so it's not really like not crazy these days but it was crazy back in the day right it so um like I'm wondering so then you start like obviously deep deep having a deep di where like okay messaging is the next thing and then how do I get rid of messaging right it's like obviously there's bridges that uses messages but

31. 13:48

    sure um but this idea of composability so I'll I'll I'll Deep dive in ask you this question we like how do you think about that so does that mean like smart contract a on near should be able to talk to Smart contract B on ethereum and then a developer like how does the experience look like for developer and we can also go back to user I think is pretty specific but how does that look like for developer yeah like this is a great

32. 14:14

    question something we are going to release more details around the next week but the idea is exactly what you mentioned right like ultimately if you want smart contracts to compose let just have Smart contracts compos why need to like construct like data send message deconstruct data all of that right um so I think what we landed ended up doing was thinking more like AWS uh where you have this application API Gateway and all sort of applications

33. 14:48

    talk to each all sort of like Services think about change as servers or databases and your application as like microservices across different network netw works and now you need to build this like API layer of sorts where these microservices can like talk to each other and then you sort of like compose all of them together with this Gateway API Gateway your users interact with the API Gateway they don't know any of the

34. 15:12

    microservices thing or interop thing that is going on at all and you will see this in our white paper as well we call this application giveway so applications should be able to build this Gateway using which all of their onchain contracts are triggered and that gives you synchron synchronization by default removing the need for like synchronization later down the L yeah I see but the synchronization is done I guess by like the the Gateway right it's

35. 15:44

    not like the everything chains go asynchronous right like near goes asyncronously block time is different like block time is different and then you have an abstraction on top let's let's say yeah that I guess looks after uh um this is a bit of a technical question but how do you deal with state snc in that world like is is it is it like what's the canical kind of feel like if I were to interact and want to

36. 16:08

    do something new e like how does how how how does that work I think um now this is like somewhat of a half big thought but I'm going to roll with this okay uh just like play play along and let's see the idea yeah so like one day I was I was thinking about this right like what is interrup what what you want to do is make sure that action on B happens only after action on chain a happens yeah right so you could think about interrup

37. 16:41

    as verifiable sequencing so if in some way you are able to make sure that action on chain a happens only after action on on on B then you essentially have interrupt in some sense and how like you just meet need to make sure all like both of these happen back to back and because this Gateway is the entry point the Gateway is able to sign off on the sequence of execution across different networks so the Gateway is

38. 17:11

    able to say hey you you got to execute this then you got to execute this then you got to execute this I see so it's synchronized by default in I see some sense I see I see I see so basically you just say like do something on near do something on E and do something on salana and and then that goes as like one task and then that task execute it I mean it's kind of like it's like synchronous blockchain in a sense that you go synchronously like ethereum takes these transactions executes them all at

39. 17:41

    the same time um okay fair that makes sense I ex about you could like yeah yeah go go go you isn't like this is centralized or like how do you guys or you guys have ideas decentralize it yeah I think for us the idea is and this is also like a place where like socket def first from everyone else in the space that's why we decided to call socket as first chain abstraction protocol we do

40. 18:05

    not want to build uh a chain but instead wanted to offer developers like multiple settings on how they host the this these application gateways so essentially for us what we came up with what this like was this like model stack where you can host these application Gateway centrally or you can have a network or you can have a central sequencer emitting ckps or you can have a te or you can run this on a centralized server but prove onchain optimistically so a bunch of these methods exist and you don't have

41. 18:39

    to make a choice on like day one okay you can dump it on near and then get the I mean like decentralizing that anywhere you can get consens you can build an ABS do it like there's a lot of things you can do that yeah okay that's cool interesting I mean like we thought about it in a way like we do something with fast finality quite similar in a sense not but like we basically execute Bunch

42. 19:00

    stuff and say this is the final State and give that back to the to the l2s it's it's the other way right so you basically say rather than reading all the bunch state from near I'm just gonna get like transactions I'm gonna execute them and by the time I know that this is the state of the all these blockchains okay fair I get it yeah that's cool um yeah awesome like what are the what are the use cases you guys thinking about pretty much I guess like is that a like like a what like a kind of like a packet

43. 19:31

    would mean or like like it's looks like a package right you send a package you had a bunch of actions uh and then you get approval which makes sense now from the white papers like request action action action action and then approval and then done right so what in news cases you guys are thinking about like is something that wasn't available before I think um if I if I talk about it I'll sort of like blun it out into

44. 19:56

    two top top high level buckets one I call like chain abstracted smart contract composability which is the stuff I mentioned before like have all like have all smart contracts available uh to you on like a similar virtual layer so now uh you can call a smart contract on near or on arbitrum or on optimism as if all of these contracts are on the same layer so like no more like you know uh message passing and stuff like that second um is these these

45. 20:28

    things that I'm still like trying to name properly but I'm calling them like pre-execution compute mhm okay idea is like often when before doing things on chain you want to you want to do some execution non-critical execution or like maybe critical execution up to you uh these could be things like let's say if you're building an intent protocol you want to run an auction to sort of decide who

46. 20:54

    should be the one that should get to solve your intent so you can like build that on top of socket you you can do resource locks on top of socket yeah I can see that that makes sense like yeah I I now in again more interesting stuff you can do application specific sequencing on top of socket which means you as an application uh like imagine you are like building a DEX you can now

47. 21:19

    programmatically make sure that you can always let's say back run large trades and sort of keep some of that profit for yourself or like distribute it among your token holders right you can add firewall or security invariant to your application let's say you have like let's say you're building a bridge and you want to make sure total supply for your Bridge does not like exceed total number of tokens just add those inv variants there so all of your onchain

48. 21:45

    interactions now pass through these invariants and then they get executed onchain making your D5 protocol like ultimately more secure you know so a bunch of these like pre-execution things you can you can do on socket right thingss okay that's cool and have you have you guys looked into like predicate or like some some of the stuff that like they have an ABS that does like pre-transaction logic which I mean it's

49. 22:11

    like ABS is the same as like getting getting secured from somewhere this is cool um one question that popped up uh and you'll probably like this is conversational like when you speak I'll probably get something in is like you know in the industry like we I mean this has happened with like sharting we near near has its own terminology like with how how it say things but then when you go to other

50. 22:35

    ecosystems like there's similar things that I've like named differently and like I saw this specifically in the shared security space like for example sham came in and called it abs and there's other others came in they called it like some DV whatever that thing is how do you think about with the white paper like how do you think about naming like is is there something that you're like following because like for example

51. 22:59

    Celestia did it with modular because it was like modular as in like in software um so do you do you follow a practice or is it something that like people should pay attention to while they creating names let's say honestly I don't have a recommendation here so what happened was like when we were building building the protocol we we got n sniped by mikad where we were like like mikad also has like weird name uh and there yeah ex exactly and their

52. 23:33

    Ral was like you know like if you if you name things obvious people assume what it means and don't actually look into it as like a new thing or like they have some like prejudgments about it so if you want to remove those like name name name things something new that's how if you like scroll to the socket white paper you will find that components are named electrically or like there is an electronic team uh so there's socket

53. 23:58

    there are switch boards there are plugs and all of those things now like semantically these should make sense these are new terms there is going to be additional like a learning overhead here but our hope is it allows people to like look into things with a fresh eye and more critically and once once people understand it they are like more aligned and like you know things make sense uh but yeah I don't have like do not take a

54. 24:22

    recommendations from me about naming things yeah cuz I mean like it makes sense right like I mean everybody does that like project is like obviously socket so you want to put like Gateway like I mean Gateway is like a very Gateway isum so you're learning from my mistakes yeah yeah like yeah I mean it's cool um no that's that's awesome um I asked this to everybody and like people have been kind of giving me different

55. 24:48

    answers like what does chain abstraction mean to you personally not like to suck it but like what are the things that like why do you care so much about it I think chain abstraction means um what it means to me is application centricity MH um ultimately look um there was this tweet um that I was very surprised to read but I'm so glad it exists which just it's it's such a simple tweet I shouldn't be even quoting it it just says is like Network cost is

56. 25:30

    just cost for the end user M you know what I what I mean by that is like today when when you're trying to execute swaps swap on any network you you need to think about if you have eat you need to try getting your transaction in which means like you need to like you know make sure you're executing with the right gas price and you need to have your slipage setting on point and now if

57. 25:54

    you like extend this to like a number of change your variables increase exponentially uh things like hey is my bridge going to get completed when is it going to be done etc etc so my entire point is look people hate variables in their life uh when I like like the reason I use iPhone and not an Android is because I know it's a great daily driver it's not going to introduce another variable in my life so what chain abstraction should do is be is enable application centricity meaning if

58. 26:26

    I if I want to swap there's only one variable I care about which is my output amount everything else should be bigged into it I I shouldn't need to worry about if my transaction is going to land or not I shouldn't need to worry about if my bridge is going to land or not I shouldn't need to worry about if I have enough heat all of those are variables which I which are not related to my action my action is to swap everything else have someone else care about it and

59. 26:52

    this is how mofa also like came into picture because auctions uh auctions enable this beautiful thing where you can supply the the variable that you care about to the auction and have all other participants in the auction care about the variables you don't care about so you can like compress 18 variables into one variable that you care about just like to sum it up if you use let's say a chain of sued swap thingy like bung you will see an output price and

60. 27:24

    that's it it includes everything it includes your gas cost it includes your swapping cost it includes everything you don't even know that there is there are like swaps happening and bridging happening and like gas costs happening under the hood everything is like part of part of the quote so I think um ultimately what you want to deliver to the end user is that they should care about the thing that they're trying to do which in terms of oning actions is

61. 27:54

    the mint that you're trying to do is the swap that you're trying to do so do not so like find a way to convert that variable into all the other onchain variables and auctions are a great way to do it so if you imagine auction as a blackbox you supply it the variable that you care about and have other sort of compete to give you best execution on that variable and they will care about how to get the execution done right so if it's so if it's an nment call it $5

62. 28:24

    total there is no network cost after this if you're trying to do a swap include like the network cost and like all sorts of fees like as part of it uh but yeah that's roughly uh what my dream is I I want to use applications and not give a about any underlying infra and not be exposed to it okay here's a question though like I think it's good from a ux perspective I agree with that but there's this thing called I me

63. 28:53

    sandwich STX or like anything you you do on on chain is going to be can be attacked by somebody that's a bigger player that can like attack you basically to get something out of you right like that's that's how I would explain it for folks that haven't looked into M yet but um like how do you think about it like it's obviously it's a spectrum which you make it easier for the user but how do we also make sure

64. 29:16

    the user is not s of a stack by larger folks that is why auctions are great right so you would just like give your give your trade away and be like hey I I want to swap 10 e for this much amount of like you know usdc like this uh this minimum amount of usdc and you have these other third parties like bid for you uh and they will sort of like bid each other and sort of like do the price Discovery part for you and you will get

65. 29:47

    the best price uh and now you don't have to worry about if things are going to get front run or backround or sandwiched or whatever you know like if if there is value to be if if there's like profit generated by your by your trade any any sort of value generated by your trade be it value in me all of that will sort of be returned back to you because these parties will be competing against each

66. 30:12

    other and that M internalization will sort of automatically happen so that's why I find auctions to be like really good mechanism to do chain of struction I see um and is that the is that to like I mean this is great like this is for you guys I guess for for this for for the socket size but how how do people are doing it have you been seeing other like approaches that people do um in the Bron landscape um or like other approaches that people have done uh to address the

67. 30:41

    same problem I think a bunch of people are addressing it from like different angles which I find to be quite interesting and like something that needs to be done I think like these are all valuable exper experiments um and often I've I've actually not found too many direct like people sort of attacking the space directly but more doing chain abstraction at different layers which is why like when we saw chain signatures we were quite excited and we had a chart with Kindle and a bunch of like people

68. 31:14

    at new on like how can we like merge us merge our Stacks together because um socket is like a platform to build these chain obstructed applications but um you need need something like chain signatures to make it easy for users to control account their accounts on N number of blockchains with just a near signature it right uh so combining chain signatures with socket stack allows you to have like a completely CH abstracted

69. 31:45

    experience otherwise someone would have to build something on top of socket to make it seamless to use your same ethereum private key or Neo private key to interact with your Doge account your account your eum account and what mhm and how do you do the this is a bit of a technic question but like when you interact with from those chains like how do you read it back like if the state

70. 32:09

    has been changed from the other blockchain do you rely on something else or is it like something that you guys provide that you know if I'm doing near if I'm dependent on a salana state how do you take that back salana state to ensure that this application is synced with that exactly so we call these things proof systems essentially to prove to like chain B something happened on chain a right so we call these proof systems our approach there is there's

71. 32:34

    just like so much Innovation happening on this scw system lab it doesn't make sense to build your own thing so we modularize this part of it and that's why like socket like uh we we call it mofa modular autoflow options so these are auctions that can be settled in a modular fashion so you can select how you want to settle your OFA and it's completely modular so you can be like like hey I I want to use this Zer no proof system sure plug it into socket and use it it's completely

72. 33:05

    permissionless and it allows you to sort of like keep up to date with uh newer approv systems as well as do a path specific thing in the sense that hey if you're talking to two Cosmos servers then you want to use light cents and I IBC if you're talking within super chain then you want to use super chain stuff if you're talking within like polygon system you want to use like a z

73. 33:28

    and stuff stuff like that so that's that's how we do it yeah so the way like people can do like Celestia is doing like IBC connections through through like like basically their blockchain and then like I guess like rer as the like bondless now which kind of you can do use the same thing I think for like proving some of the state you do okay that makes sense pretty much pretty much I see so you you're trying to be like a glue between these things while also

74. 33:52

    provide this Gateway for developers to come in and then like basically just build applications um exactly okay and how are you guys thinking about like the I guess the acquisition side here it's like I know there's a bunch of applications that you guys already work with which you can which you plug in here um but also like what do you think about the new new developer acquisition or like how you think about it I know you worked at polygon for because I know 2021 polygon

75. 34:17

    was the place to go for people to deploy uh but yeah curious how you think about it those were fun times I think ultimately what you want to do and and this is like something I think like Folks at new have have done quite well and a bunch of like other ecosystem in the space have done quite well um if if you think about it we are sort of like creating this Marketplace between apps users trying to use the apps and these offchain agents that are finally going to interact with the chains on

76. 34:49

    behalf of the end user M so in in marketplaces there are two sides supply and demand um and it's really hard to bootstrap marketplaces so how you go about it usually is you bootstrap one side of it first and that's what socket's been doing for the last 2 and a half years we have orderflow worth $3 billion going through the protocol today that need that all of these off agents want access to because they can make profit off of it so now we have this like very very nice um uh Marketplace

77. 35:22

    which attracts application developers to build on this layer because you have both of these both of these layers available already any new Marketplace uh this is the only Network effect that matters uh once you have both the supply and demand demand side bootstrapped application develop it becomes like a ripe feeli for application developers to come and deploy that application on uh

78. 35:46

    so I think that's our that's our like uh thought process on this yeah in the marketplace I guess like the I mean this supply and demand right so I guess Supply here is like the assets and the order flow and all that yeah users trying to do actions on chain yeah I see and demand is uh offchain agents that are going to do that action on chain so if it's a swap then solvers if it's a

79. 36:12

    Crossing thing then fill if it's simply like you know passing data around the layers right yeah okay that's cool that that makes sense um um what what are your sort of like takes to the next year are we coming to December uh while we're recording this I guess like what do we what do we expect from chain abstraction next year you think this year already was quite a Bango year for chain obstruction um like I think like this thing started this

80. 36:43

    year and um we have Unis swap doing T abstraction stuff now uh so this year has already been quite Banger uh but a lot of projects haven't still like released stuff including us so I think our personal focus is how do we release documentation get some developer feedback going and get some application Builders to start building consumer apps that can interact onchain um so we want onchain to be like one thing not arbitrum not base not e not salana

81. 37:16

    onchain is like onchain I don't know for for some reason we have a few number of devs and users and decided to like split them by by Chain I think we like it's it's more about off chain like trfy and onchain world and we need to sort of like do this transition um so picture in my head is uh consumer apps plug into socket to get access to the onchain world and we we want to like push through uh push towards that as as

82. 37:45

    quickly as possible and how do people survive in this like chain abstracted world next to you think they there's a lot of stuff going on like there's a lot of infrastructure um that was a map I think the the RO guys at it at some point which had a lot of stuff and like if somebody was to come in as a builder next year how did they differentiate it is it is tough today I I will I will not lie I think the space is very quickly evolving that's we we don't even have a formal definition of

83. 38:17

    CH abstraction MH uh just like we don't even have a formal definition of like what it means to be decentralized mhm uh it is it is yeah it is a it is a good and a bad thing I would I would say so at this point um there's a lot of like content work that needs to happen a lot of like education Awareness stuff that needs to happen but ultimately you just need to like uh start building

84. 38:41

    applications and not worry about like uh chains at all uh so I think that's the way to go about it for now but I think like people need to like keep an eye on like what's happening in the chain obst section space because the space is like evolving very quickly um next year I think we'll have a good amount of products and people will actually able to feel what you production uh is yeah yeah I say this quite publicly like when

85. 39:07

    we when I started as an entrepreneur like we try to do a bunch of stuff at the same time like it it works in principle like because you you basically start with one problem and then you're like oh well like I see another problem that is adjacent and I want to build something there but they ended up like maybe you guys s the same thing where like there's bunch of stuff that I'm building at the same time that like for it's good for technology I can build a technology but the GTM side

86. 39:32

    gets harder like I was like what do you like how do you tell the market so we shifted nuffle with more like hey like we have the fast finality it's good but we're going to use this thing for like one specific thing right and I'm going deliver that and then we'll see like and that's like how do you restake from or stake from tokens from IG Lair directly without even thinking about it right like without even bridging whatever you just come to this front end you you stake the token and then he goes to like

87. 39:56

    IG there directly so I think that's what we'll see like people will go very very specific into chain abstracted apps or so yeah um which is quite interesting um and um yeah the next next year should be fun like I think going to be there's going to be a lot more chin abstracted apps with with unit swap coming in and other ones right like yeah I think yeah exactly I think a bunch of uh applications will start

88. 40:25

    thinking about this actively and and I think um one one thing to note is like the ru of centc road map and chain abstraction are directly correlated so you can actually go ahead and launch a chain and BN abstracted uh so more and more people are realizing that hey I I want to go launch a chain and make all of the chains abstracted um and I think that's going to be a pattern that's going to repeat a lot and I joke about this

89. 40:56

    Tabasco is like I'm going to build an L1 to do to do chain abstraction which is like when I said the last comment he was like yeah I mean kind of true like that's our design it's like you know it's uh um it's quite interesting because that's the only thing s does not do yeah yeah like I I agree like it's one of the things where we're like me like with built in L1 like our engineering manager ATU was like quite

90. 41:20

    quite like heavy into like some of the consensus we near and um we're like always joking was like we do not want to launch a chain but then obviously like there's the there the other side which there's more incentives to launch a chain right so like how do how do you think about it how do you think about this like the world of like I'm building a protocol that's like I would say CH abstracted protocol like let's say first protocol with like oh

91. 41:45

    there's this chain I can launch and there's I can emit these tokens at like 15% like all these Cosmos chains did at back in the day and be fine how do you think about that as as a as a as a Founder I think uh um so I'm going to go back to like some of the things we Ted about before when you asked me like you know like what do you think you did well to get like 400 teams to build on top of us which is

92. 42:10

    like remove reasons for them to say no um so I think doing this not having a chain removes a bunch of reasons why people would say no to building on top of socket because it allows them to launch chains on top of socket right and that's ultimate what makes socket protocol more powerful so what is powerful what is what is more powerful than having one chain having 100 chains right so I think uh for socket protocol that's uh like we would love to see that happen have a bunch of

93. 42:43

    l1's launch l2s launch as chain obstructed apps on top of socket yeah I mean it's kind of given like you were mentioning like l2's not only the rollup Centric role map but like there's going to be new all ones right like there's going to be mon coming in there's like different alms there's like bunch of stuff like the the variables are increasing so like the complexity is going to increase uh which

94. 43:08

    is like again an interesting problem to solve uh from chain abstraction perspective uh so I am I'm I'm still Tweeting asking people hey guys how are you exactly moving to salana and I don't like I've not gotten like too many promising replies yet um I think the all all stuff is um yeah I don't know how to go about it yet but everything else I'm sure we can handle yeah evm evm isas tental because evm is very standardized

95. 43:39

    but like move move on E to my I I have no idea about how move works and then I have to figure that out and then just move like that's the that's kind of the challenge that's going to come right like uh which is which is interesting so I looked into moves and move on Aptos and move onu and move on uh movement are not the same I was like guys can you can you please have a group chat going and like you know at least have a standardized move VM yeah they should they should I mean ethereum

96. 44:11

    has benefited in quiet like as a person that like worked a near has benefited from that very heavily like that's one of the probably the best moves ethereum has done like I the think the evm is very very useful and it's just standardization that like if a developer goes to polygon they can deploy the polygon they can take it and they can just take elsewhere you know we already

97. 44:35

    tested on polyon here is it is exactly that was the whole like polygon BD strategy that we did back in the day right like if you are an ethereum developer you are a polyon developer by default right because it's like the the same VM you won't even know the difference yeah that's cool we have like five more minutes uh to kind of wrap this up but um thanks for all these like different

98. 44:59

    answers like I usually make this very kind of you know like I don't want I don't like preparing questions there questions like I usually have but I also like going tangent um but love to hear like how does sort of like the next quarters look like for you guys like yeah and uh if developers wants want to learn about sucket where do they go so if you want to learn about socket go to socket. Tech you will not find Docs on there today but you will find docs on on that website in two weeks so

99. 45:34

    that is what we are working on at the moment this December mid December I would say like yeah okay so by the time this thing comes out dogs will be live guys check it out yeah uh but I think next quarter I I want to release docs I want to release the network or like the protocol and have at least like um five applications uh go live and get significant adoption uh in like end of January to mid February so I think that's what what we

100. 46:06

     are like pushing for at the moment we we we don't like to do quarterly planning too much we are a small team things change too fast in crypto I know it's you know I know you as small we are 30ish 30 3 Z that's still a big team yeah that's still a big team but um the amount of that we have on up late man it's it's a lot it's a lot yeah yeah all right man it's awesome thank you so much for your time all right

101. 46:40

     awesome you should check out npod on YouTube X and twitch big things are coming stay nuffy