Blockchain Gaming in 2019 — Panel | NY Blockchain Week

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:03

   hey so thank you for coming this panel will be recorded you can find it later on youtube if you want to rewind and watch some of the interesting things that we are discussing today there the panel is organized by new protocol we are building layer one protocol out of San Francisco have produced on the human team that built kind of distributed computing in the distributed storage in the past and for the past seven eight weeks me personally

2. 0:28

   I was talking to a lot of gaming studios understanding the requirements and what's important for the space so for me it was very interesting to actually bring some of the best projects in in this tiny space today but some of the best projects to talk about the plans for the next couple years what would it take to get to the mass market actually as well as understand like how people think about ideal customer how to get to

3. 0:53

   your goals and so we'll start with introductions and talk a little bit about each project so we'll start with Devon show you this sir well actually past this point yeah so my name is Devon Finn sir I am with open C which is a marketplace for crypto assets primarily in the gaming space on the theorem right now so we allow users to buy and sell things like crypto kitties or gods and chain cards or other crypto assets and some of them are even outside of gaming

4. 1:26

   right now but gaming has been a big focus for us hi I'm Mickey maher Everlast effluence creator company's Gabbar labs has also launched the first smart contract wallet in space launch day on Monday it's called yapper and then there's going to be a big announcement soon of another game I'm probably going to release it this Friday so stay tuned for that Marguerite declare selves founder/ceo blockade games we've built a boxing platform to support a free to play a game called to our main title is neon

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   district and it is a final fantasy inspired cyberpunk RPG been working on it for about two years and really excited about the space already how are you guys thank you hi I'm James Ferguson from fuel games we build Triple A games on the blockchain and our most popular game is called God's Unchained which is a TCG that runs on etherium hi my name is Yann Rosner I'm with Ark a distillery co-founder and CEO and we are a proper console game developer we are launching

6. 2:47

   normally our games on PlayStation Nintendo switch Xbox and we have last year announced the first console based blockchain supported video game coming out soon maybe we can start from there so it's easier what I need to so I was wondering maybe like on a more personal note how did you start with the space how did you get interested in the blockchain aspect of it interesting enough so we started the whole project around blockchain by actually getting hired to

7. 3:16

   build a game for blockchain so you know coming from the console space being my whole team all video game designers or video game developers so there was our focus all along and we got hired to do our first kind of like test run on the blockchain and build a what they considered a proper game for blockchain which we started and through that process really learned a lot about obviously technology around blockchain

8. 3:42

   smart contracts the whole concept of ownership and decentralization and yep that's how it all started ok cool my brother and I have been very interested in and involved with Bitcoin originally and then when etherium came out it was essentially quite groundbreaking to be able to have that level of customized ability and control that level of logic in a decentralized and trustless manner

9. 4:14

   and we got very very excited by the potential if your iam ah this was sort of quite a few years ago now and it took us a while to move we're both developers but to move into the blockchain space full time is etherium sort of became capable of hosting these sorts of real applications on it and they're still going through that phase now and a lot of other block chains are having a look at the same space about how you can move from having you know real applications to be able to

10. 4:40

    homes enterprise-grade and can consumer sized products on the blockchain we got really interested when ERC 7:21 came out essentially the idea that non-functional tokens could be used on the blockchain allows it to be opened up so much more than everyone's mindset was just I say 20s and trying to work out a way to bring utility through that way my brother and I are very very avid

11. 5:07

    gamers especially in our past especially in highly competitive eSports style games like League of Legends Hofstra etc and to us it seemed like the next logical step was to raise money and try and build sort of a game which people would play anyway even if it had nothing to do with the blockchain and just use the blockchain it's sort of the invisible infrastructure which backs that experience so my background was primarily art fine art and then creative

12. 5:39

    technology and I was a gamer so when script mining happened in 2013 I was ready to go and started mining litecoin early on then I started thinking about this is around that time ready player one the book was really had come out and it made me think about like how a virtual currency and like gamers get virtual currency that's just in our blood and so for me my understanding a Bitcoin and crypto and how that all made

13. 6:04

    sense and like oh my gosh it's not trapped in the application you can take this and transfer it for world value and then I start writing to my art background of hiding private keys in turning it into pattern making into physical artwork digital artwork turn into treasure hunts on the Internet had a lot of fun with that for about six years was eventually hired and as a consultant for building communities I

14. 6:28

    got really tired actually of relaunching projects over and over and over again and rebuilding communities from scratch so I have turned around launched blockade gains 27 like beginning of 2018 with my core team that had been with me that whole time and wanted to do neon district and the cyberpunk theme is just so perfect for crypto right if you've been in this space like it's so very excited I guess about where we go from

15. 6:54

    here love the idea of ownership like you guys are talking about non fungible tokens these are all things that gamers have always wanted so thanks so I guess in two different perspectives because I'm not a founder of the company I joined later so personally I was interested in Bitcoin invested in Bitcoin I actually bought some kitties and in the past and I spent the last 12 13 years in gaming so when I saw Petty's

16. 7:30

    launch and kitties I started thinking about it and then realizing that people behind it or people I knew were friends of mine so we started talking and just made sense that my my background in gaming my interest in the blockchain kind of come together and income the story of crypto kitties and what the company started it and result rested in it was there's a company Avenger studio in Vancouver called axioms and Xing Zen

17. 8:01

    has built many award-winning consumer facing products or apps really what they try to do is they take new technologies and see if we can use creativity and new mics to mentor how many designers to build amazing products using these technologies so CEO into a group of five or six one day and said hey let's see if we can build something for the consumer blockchain and really the first thing that came out of it the

18. 8:33

    first thing the idea came out of it was Tripoli's the idea wasn't necessarily well-received internally just didn't seem like something that wouldn't necessarily move the needle but there are the people that came up with it the group of five or six were really passionate about it and really behind it we launched it and you know the rest is history so we've really unlocked we think potential in the

19. 9:02

    blockchain gaming space and we see just from what some of our consumer behavior some new behaviors this space is unlocked desires customers engagement customers so we're going to double triple down on that and continue to build beings watching what is now so my background is consumer tech I worked at Pinterest for a while after I graduated and the crypto kiddies I think was kind of the magic moment for

20. 9:34

    my co-founder me you know we were interested peripherally in Bitcoin and aetherium but kind of turned off by the lack of really like mainstream consumer facing apps just because that was kind of what we were interested in building so this idea I think when we first started looking at cryptic IDs the really interesting thing about it was the fact that you could permissionless lee build applications on top of it so shortly after crypto Kitty is launched there was Kitty race which allowed you

21. 10:06

    to race your crypto kitties and there was Kitty hats which allowed you to accessorize your crypto kitties and so that kind of from there it kind of emerged like what were the other sorts of applications that might scale horizontally across the new assets that are coming online and one of those kind of obvious ideas at the time was building a generic marketplace so that's our background isn't in gaming so rather

22. 10:30

    than go to build a game we figured let's build something that will be useful for games and also have like a consumer side to it cool and now we will switch to some project related questions can I go for your business what what would be the most important thing that you're targeting as a metric of success what the success look like and as well as what's your plans in relation to that

23. 10:51

    for next year or two yeah firm you play specifically our kind of top-level mark metric is GM V so gross merchandise volume so we're looking at that I mean we look at everything but you know everyone knows there's not that many users in the DAP space right now so what's impressive is that these items are being valued at much higher levels than you'd see in traditional games and often are exchanged at like ridiculously high prices right we saw that with

24. 11:24

    cryptic ad as part of that was a little bit of speculative mania but I think we're also starting to see the effects of true ownership really take root in these early communities so for us rather than I mean we of course look at da use and ma use but we're also really looking at like how much value is exchanged in these markets and that's I think the exciting thing there is that that has been growing pretty substantially in the

25. 11:50

    last six months especially we've you know grown our our gmv roughly 50 to 70 percent every month just based on this kind of early market of blockchain games I would say that well first of all our whole company mission is rayna billion users watching bring a lot more than those we see two avenues to do that through content games but another Avenue or another thing that needs to be unlocked is technology you know we crashed that their games I'm sure

26. 12:35

    everyone entry knows there are there's a lot of friction a lot of confusion on onboarding just a normal non-technical user today it's very costly play games in terms of gases and other things so there's just a lot of tradition and the technology so we're looking at it is more of a step-by-step process of how do we take what we've built learn from it and then build something that attracts

27. 13:08

    you know 5 X 10x 100x more users of the previous thing and the two avenues to do that is better than one depth content and less rich to you know technology with less friction and more scale right so as those things improve and you know launch our wallet we're trying to improve some of that ourselves but with better content not only from our team and our studio but the space of the whole I'm really hoping that other

28. 13:40

    developers in space build one depth more robust more rich in experiences because I think that's good for everywhere in the space and it validates the space but just what we're looking at is just improving upon what cookies is from both content perspective so basically it's a success a couple of metrics is and players can come they have a username password on board and they're playing right they're playing the game there's no the friction we've abstracted away the bad at easier

29. 14:24

    experience that we associate with blockchain products we did a tech demo proved out the text back saw this happen had 44% next day of attention with users they loved playing and collecting these assets and then built a beat way so these users can make take these assets from the delay or to game take it to the open sea actually and so they're their assets for their first aetherium potentially that was super cool to see

30. 14:49

    happen in the wild like me we did that so took that same text back that is what's underneath me on district but neon different game design can support the idea of creating value through game play so doing that and actually accomplishing that for me it will be a giant success but in addition to that the 1 million monthly active users because once we do that like we have like block 10 games are good to go right like then we get to that billion right now there's

31. 15:18

    the load is still struggles under certain circumstances so but we're gonna get there we have a thousand highly qualified beta users for neon district that we're gonna be working closely with over the next few months before we ramp up to our season 1 release in q3 to stress test the network and get it ready for medium gamers and I guess in addition to that the virals how many like designing the games to socially

32. 15:44

    give gifting for free for example on layer 2 I can airdrop my assets to my friends and they can get it in their email or a text message or on their social media and access a game account like they it can't happen for them for them all they have to do is claim it those social how many users can you bring like you bring five people I mean that's how your game goes hockey stick it sounds like we're all having

33. 16:08

    very similar sort of Northstars which is how do you get a million people on board onto the blockchain and then a billion people after that and so we've been exploring this concept in a couple of ways um we've had a couple of great things about you know the infrastructure around that and also about the user acquisition side so virality obviously works really well I suppose I can touch on a couple of other things which we're having a look at from the user

34. 16:31

    engagement side because that's one of the other big benefits of blockchain games is that you sort of get this crazy retention that happens when people have some level of skin in the game so what we've been building out and we're quite excited by is we're being building out a decentralized governance system which is based on the sort of liquid value of the sum of your non-functional tokens as

35. 16:56

    well as how engaged you are in the game and then based on that you get to control the meta destiny of the game itself which works really well when you have sort of a game which has been designed for eSports and also designed for different seasons and competitions so in future games are of gods Unchained we have one of the things we've been doubling down on in influences and having a really big world tournaments about tournament pool prize is about half a million US dollars for the first

36. 17:22

    view eventually there will be some gods I'm Shane cards which are imbalanced as we continued reduce more content one of the nice things about the blockchain is not just that you get to make guarantees about scarcity and immutability but it is that you get to involve the player as the designer and as the people who control the destiny of the game itself and that's something we're really excited is how when you engage that layer as well you get to have retention in games that

37. 17:53

    previously there are games who have tried to do this Eve online it's a very basic basic game it's essentially a spreadsheet model against each other with you know fancy visuals but their plot their player base is so obsessed with this game because they get to write the meta story and the metal narrative of how this game plays out when you start moving from just an experience which you're selling to allow

38. 18:17

    real value to be in these worlds this experience becomes so much more engaging and we're really excited by that on top of obviously in mainstream adoption yeah so I mean we are the the newbies in that space right so we come from the console side and I have to take with that the metrics that we know so definitely also users downloads and it will be very interesting we want to take a different approach to a whole space as well obviously I mean we are we are

39. 18:47

    storytellers we are content creators and we are looking at the space when we are launching our games between 80 to 150 thousand downloads in the first months normally so we are you know aiming high and we are also following the free-to-play model so you're incorporating blockchain on a later stage where we believe we can get as many people on the game as possible as fast as possible adopting the game and making them incentivizing them then to take it one notch further and up to

40. 19:20

    upload and connect to the Russian in depth bring the assets there and then obviously you know we can all work together to bring bring it is all up to 1 billion users and but yeah so that those are the metrics that we're looking at and at the same time also in game average in game time which normally in our games between 60 and minutes so that's obviously a big thing for us how we how we evaluate the quality of our content and adding

41. 19:44

    content over time yeah I can not really say a lot to that from our own experience but what I definitely see is you know you mentioned ready player one model the the whole idea of having a one inventory that jumps across all the different games and platforms the the big part what we are what we were focusing on the game that we are developing right now which is play hunters is a proof of concept basically so it's not really about that game it's about the software that we developed in

42. 20:32

    the backend and we are focusing also on software tools that we want to develop for other indie game developers to make it easier to for them to bring their games to blockchain can connect them to console connect them to other games and creating an environment really where we all can like trade assets between games between platforms so agnostic to everything that I think it's really interesting that you brought up interoperability because that's one of

43. 20:57

    the cool things about the blockchain space if you can form to a stack and that spec is open and the data is also open then people can build on top of what you built whether this is essentially without your permission so we have about ten sort of fan applications and sites around gods unchained of varying quality some sort of quite basic some extremely extremely good which would you would sort of get if you hired three or four deaths that

44. 21:23

    $100,000 plus a year which is really cool to see the community being involved in that way but then there's also things you can do at the studio level so something we did with data and crypto kiddies was we did an interoperability promotion where if you have a cat or a kitty in crypto kitties then your beautiful 2d Kitty turns into a 3d version of the exact same kitty in gods unchained that you get to show off to your our opponent on the side of the board so

45. 21:55

    something that you can essentially bring something yeah it's something where you can show something you're quite proud of these people who are some of the original owners of the crypto kitties or they had their favorite ones and then they can bring it across into this new context similarly actually oh so we've recently did a founder sale to for our game we sold the game boss for season zero and it was actually purchased by a game developer someone that is from the game

46. 22:26

    industry right not blocking game industry like the game industry they're working with three other block stream companies right now so that when that token moves into their game they it takes on the IP of the asset which we have to figure out right as a company but that's really exciting because now we're not financing this development this is now being financed by an owner of the asset who's proud of it and wants it to also increase in value so that's

47. 22:51

    exciting but also at the community that sense of co-ownership we see so when we're talking about player behavior everybody that now has skin in the game is actually ready to just like so we've seen this in the fungible token space right like in the different communities that people when they own this asset they're ready to go rally and cheerlead on social media for whatever favorite cryptocurrency people have it's not any different in the game space and not only

48. 23:16

    that but they want to see the game succeed so they're very supportive I would say something that stands out though is the average user spend for crypto games is ten times higher than the industry average and that's because of that sense of Kohner ship and I think that is incredibly disruptive for the entire space the gaming space in general and I maybe you guys have seen higher numbers in that but that's something that we've seen so that's exciting

49. 23:40

    because people are owning these assets that they can hand down general like hopefully over a generation and you can be bonded with these characters and have invested in them and develop them and they become a sense of legacy that we haven't seen before so you ask well the first of all some of my mistakes are these says later 22 months but okay just frame it a different way so you have about metrics previous question and the reason I

50. 24:15

    didn't bring up traditional metrics is because I think some of that will be redefined hidden within this blue space like ma u and v au for us is really misleading just because the nature of the game and I also think engagement can be redefined so much from what we've seen so I'll touch on the interoperability is a form of engagement so interoperability and then something else would be called this like the join the engagement we see that users know

51. 24:46

    that conjoin I'm sure where they're fully incentivized fully engaged in the entire experience so one part of that and one thing that we saw happened was when we first launched the game we didn't have really the necessary bodies or expertise to support a game per se so you had all these discussion channels and you know with users discussing the game talking with each other they all needed moderators so what happened was in traditional games hiring managers and

52. 25:17

    they were moderate channels and letting this for whatever our users to the upon themselves to and moderate channels and assignment you know themselves the moderator of each individual Channel just to ensure the success of the game they make sure the users were happy giving their answer because they were incentivized to do it and then the interoperability of these in terms of engagement is we saw what we call the cavers pop up out of nowhere essentially cookie verses and it's not

53. 25:52

    about 50 apps but it's basically third-party apps that were built on top of different getting smart contracts and really how that came to be and what happened was our users just wanted more to do with their keys so they started building experiences dress up your kitties lace your kitties so on and so forth so there's fifty different experiences that our user base went out and built themselves and what's interesting and I think what's even mote the most important thing about billion

54. 26:22

    of watching gaming is this interoperative interoperability aspect to it because what it did was this unlock the creativity of our user base to go out and do other things that maybe could evaluate an interesting but if you do this at scale you even build a bit more in-depth experience with millions and users you're unlocking and creativity of a development community that can build all kinds of different experiences on top there's more

55. 26:47

    contracts and that's very interesting there's also interesting for the users and developers because it's a riskless thing so when Facebook opens their platform to gaming they own the rules they could do anything why so what they slowly started to do is to change the rules if game developers business is on top of ruined a bunch of businesses and eventually change can't change the rules

56. 27:11

    businesses kept Bill Netta out of business kept paling because the rules changed and eventually they shut down that entire platform and that's what makes them watching different because it's a business endeavors developers as long as the spar contracts are open developers can build on top of that with immutable rules and feel free to build these experiences and make revenue a lot of these experiences without loss being able to take it away and changing the

57. 27:37

    rules yeah I would echo echo most of what's already been said I think two interesting trends we've seen from the marketplace side have been number one a lowering of the barriers to entry for investors and games so we're seeing a lot of folks who you know maybe sort of care what the gameplay is but are more interested in it from a sort of investment perspective and usually these are folks who are very crypto curious as well so they're like bought or they bought into this vision of a world of

58. 28:14

    non fungible tokens but I think that that group of folks could expand and having open marketplaces that exist out the game really allows these people to participate in a way that doesn't require necessarily learning all the details of the game but still providing market-making functions and liquidity to the game so I think that's that's really cool to see the second area to expand a

59. 28:38

    little bit on the interoperability side I think right now is a really exciting time for small developers because they can build very high leverage products so an example of this is there's a developer who's building something called crypto voxels and crypto voxels is this it's just one developer it's this virtual world and you can you can basically own a piece of land in this virtual world and build sort of a Minecraft type building inside of it and

60. 29:08

    what's really cool is you can also show all of your NF T's inside of your virtual world so he's just gone from basically an isolated virtual world to one where your crypto kiddies can show up your gods and chain cards can show up you can buy those items in the world and he didn't have to have a relationship with any of those original games and now he scaled his virtual world to thousands

61. 29:32

    of different experiences and so we've been really impressed with games that are able to bootstrap off of existing communities I think we'll see a lot more experimentation from developers and things like NFT airdrops things like adding value to existing communities in like a really meaningful way and then the other interesting thing about the space is just the overlap between the users and the developers there's a lot

62. 29:57

    of users right now who are highly technical and can deploy smart contracts and often are incentivized to do so because as James said they have skin in the game so yep maybe we can also touch briefly on geography maybe you've seen some trends where particular area gets more engagement today that's one question and another question what outside of usability scalability as we mentioned here all you guys mentioned what else can we do as an industry to get to millions of people and so on the

63. 30:30

    geography side we have seen a lot of Japanese users so right now the top crypto game by transaction volume is a Japanese game called my crypto heroes you know it's a little ambiguous how much of that volume is real how much have it bought it but there's certainly in terms of visitation on our site there's a lot of activity in Asia I don't we don't have the the most insight on that and then in terms of

64. 30:59

    areas where I think the space could work together to improve things I think interoperability and open standards is something that kind of emerges naturally as things progress but I think that's one area where you know events like this meeting of minds places where you can talk about how to make these interoperability right now is great but it's still really hard to do at the end of the day and I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done but it's

65. 31:31

    happening on just making those like developer experiences better and then the obvious ones are kind of improved user experience blockchain scalability those sorts of things but Oh second be an answer but right from what we've seen if you know anything about music culture it's not that we don't just really engage in localized products but we saw one of our highest or largest audience highest spending audiences in Japan and we weren't even localized in Japanese

66. 32:11

    which was literally amazing was mind-blowing so Japanese market is mine and mature this space and then your exact second question was well known outside of usability scalability - what can we do to push the mass adoption yeah and any gaming medium or anything I formed discoverability becomes a huge issue and a huge topic and there's nothing really being done in the space right now for discoverability it's just apps that exist on web somewhere right there's all centralized places we can discover

67. 32:50

    things but I don't know if it's a probably needs to be solved today because I don't think there's enough users in totality in the space yet where someone can follow users from one game to another scale that matters but at some point I already see the discoverability of these games as an issue so actually um this is a pretty surprising metric but 90% of our users are from the US as for the RPG which is um I'm I think it's mostly driven by

68. 33:28

    social media such as like Twitter and there's other crypto networks that we have because I but we have partners so partners in Korea and Japan so for the RPG we're really going to push that distribution but I guess for that next million like I really believe in the social game like the fact that you can gift people's digital assets across any social network and you can customize it and almost it's almost like saying sending an email but in an art form that

69. 33:58

    you can trade and I think that is actually something brand-new that while we like brush it off maybe I know it's gonna care actually I think people really super sentimental send your boyfriend up or you know you can invite someone to prom buy this this game item that they can actually then go play with in a game like I think that's really cool yeah I second that in terms of geography I think we're seeing similar stuff all around so for us it's us Japan China Korea are the big four I think in

70. 34:37

    terms of something which would be really useful to help the space take off based on our own experiences is a good identity solution so currently when you're having a look at metrics or you having a look at different addresses or you're trying to give items if you want to give something to to lots of people if you wanted to do an NFT airdrop it's impossible to be able to not get

71. 35:00

    so whether they're da you metrics whether they are you're doing a giveaway there's no real way in a decentralized manner currently to be able to verify that this is one person and they only have this one account and if you could I get around that then I think a lot of these creative ideas that a lot of people have about how to increase growth would be more feasible than they currently are where you need to start thinking about how people will gain the

72. 35:25

    system because when there is value involved people will get in the system yeah same on the locations definitely u.s. and Japan here for the Asian market and well I have to say for increasing or getting more people onto the system is really a great great content we the more great content we get out there the more great fans and the vendor list will get and community grows around that if we

73. 35:51

    you know take a to technical then this will remain a to technical topic the content is really from our experience or from our perspective what drives engagement and what brings the people to the user base and also how do you think about the planning do you have like long term kind of pipeline of games so do you focus on like what you have an infant at hands right now so it how do you think

74. 36:15

    about it yeah so we approach every game or I should say most of our game concepts we approach with a universe approach right so we we have a universe in mind where the next titles upgrades additions to titles existing they're all part of one big universe where obviously didn't exchange ability and so forth comes into play as well but that's just from the content creation standpoint that's the go-to place where we where we start and where we go and where we our path leads

75. 36:46

    us and I think that's you know that has always been our motto and I think that's the majority of in the game space that's what you see is really no remaining in that universe and then having your around that and then you might you know branch out into sub universes and so forth and then we get all lost but then yeah that's that's kinda like the idea of it and then there's a vendor's end

76. 37:07

    game most of the content and the stuff which were building out is currently around gods I'm James so I suppose we have the main gods Unchained experience which is the TCG itself but then we also have sort of West's are in the middle of setting up and doing all the deals to set up a massive eSports scene around that which is just as much work as building the game itself and then building out their decentralized

77. 37:32

    governance but all using n F teens which no one's been able to do yet so all the content we are currently doing is in order to sort of double down on gods Unchained whatever question I didn't yeah how do you think about the not not just one project but like how do you think about the whole pipeline project of like how do you think about plasma Bears versus neon district versus other things yeah so I do believe in the power of the franchise definitely if you think

78. 38:02

    about Star Wars exists like they can launch Han Solo they can have ro 1 and these stories are very powerful within the Star Wars franchise but so that's why we are very almost generic in the cyberpunk landscape that we've developed it's almost like a Blade Runner vs.

79. 38:17

    aliens crossover future and that's purposely done because there's so many stories we can create and experiences side stories quests but then these assets when they transfer for example if you brought a plasma Bears into me on district it would not be a plasma beer it would be something like a robotic evil bear robot attack buddy right that we have crafted for our storyline and same with if we

80. 38:41

    had any partnerships but I guess the content creation I've I really think that so we've done this high-level ok we can do games and watching like we can do cookie clickers we know that works so now it's a matter of creating a powerful story beautiful art really drawing the connection to art and game assets because art and games have been the story that actually the fine art world has blown over decades and I'm actually really excited to see the what that looks like when we

81. 39:14

    recognize that games and fine art are actually like you can monetize that and capture it and these artists can get paid with a long tailed revenue model third-party content creators can now actually make a living these indie game developers we're all talking about that actually have had a really hard time tapping into communities we're going to have an incredibly defensible self-sustaining community that develops

82. 39:38

    that future is very powerful yeah so we have a full game City at this point that able to get some people accessing da Paz Barone eve online so we've got some talent and we've got a full pipe our games over the next 18 months and I mention one announced this week but we're usually games together to you know build new games build new experiences as well as you know perfectly these is such an important you know 10 all the processes such as important game very important audience

83. 40:23

    so we're balancing crypto eighties specific initiatives versus new games yeah we've got some cool ideas and some learnings from Purtill kitties and games of horror we talk about this game sometimes I paint our hit driven business so just because you had one hit doesn't mean you either you have to invest and watch you taking learnings and I applied some methodology to that you should be successful but it's no guarantee yet we have a full list of games or games ideas that will

84. 41:02

    be launching over the next 18 months including stuff it is within the trophy truck we don't we already have games what's how do you think about onboarding new games onto the marketplace uh yeah so we I mean we try to make it really easy to onboard new games to our marketplace so like to get your assets appearing and tradable on open sea is you know a one to two hour process if you're ERC 721 compliant actually even shorter often so that's that's really

85. 41:42

    important for us I think you know in the spirit and just from a sort of scalability of our company perspective it's really important that anyone should be able to create an instant marketplace and then we definitely have bigger companies that we don't do a lot of outbound outreach to to game companies but we do have bigger players that are interested in working with us more directly on building sort of customized white labeled marketplaces or more embedded experiences and we're we're

86. 42:12

    pretty much like open to anyone who wants to work with us even the really small indie players and I think I actually I'm I'm even more excited about some of the indie players because they're they're really in this position where they can be very lean and creative with what they're doing versus you know a big company like fortnight that has to answer to you know making a lot of money

87. 42:34

    off their existing user base yep and I guess the next question related to this would be do you see a lot of interest from larger game studios in space or not really because it's quite a change in perspective there's certain lost of control that's happening right you talked a little bit making about open platforms right versus how things were done before so I was wondering like what

88. 42:58

    do you see yeah so from our vantage point and again not an expert on sort of the evolution of gaming but I think blockchain does represent a plot a platform shift that is somewhat analogous to previous platform shift so one of those was like the shift to mobile the other shift was the introduction of free-to-play game so games where you don't have to necessarily purchase the game upfront

89. 43:22

    but you could buy upgrades later on and in in all of those scenarios I guess like can this games is another example Facebook canvas games gave birth to Zynga right so in all those scenarios I think the general trend was the first movers were the smaller game studios that were not wedded to the previous business model and I would I would characterize this shift as essentially the movement from a

90. 43:52

    centrally controlled economy to an open economy right so a existing game might look a lot like a sort of ecosystem within itself that is very hard to break out of and a blotching game looks like a much larger more complex ecosystem so I think I think smaller companies are more well suited to experiment in that space and figure out what sorts of business models and games really make sense and

91. 44:22

    then the bigger companies will be the ones that follow in terms of what we've seen we've definitely seen interest from larger players but it's still sort of dipping their foot in it as opposed to or at least from our sense as opposed to diving really deep into it and I think that's kind of to be expected with any big platform shift yeah you still still answer some I'm still here a lot of white hair that just means like around

92. 44:53

    just seen a lot of things so I started in the gaming space in about 2007 and at a time and the nose Facebook apps we became a games platform and specifically a free-to-play the first real free-to-play games gained popularity on so I saw in Facebook multiple billion dollar companies they know even building businesses on new technology a new platform while all the Triple A incumbents longer game companies stood

93. 45:37

    by the sides watch what happen and then they have it over the paid labor either get into a mature space or by companies participating that now that one's obvious but I think what a lot of people don't realize is the iPhone like if you think about the iPhone how obvious that is as a gaming platform but mobile gaming was also made by and started by folks like half brick on Australia Rovio they were the first movers and we had

94. 46:07

    super cell king machines only set up again a new platform an obvious gaming platform but the big guys didn't get into it lady in frankly mobile gaming created multiple billion-dollar companies that were acquired by the etc it's the same thing here big game coming Jonathan an invest in the space because there's guaranteed ROI there's money to be made on their spaces they understand in alright so blue yeah activision aren't going to take development

95. 46:42

    resources from counsel on mobile to experiment into this space until there's millions and millions of users in it or there's a lot more money to be made and we're probably making now as the space so as long as us this panel all of us in this room do our jobs and hopefully many others that we do our jobs so I'd say that so our my game company we have for example our two game designers came from the game space they worked with Richard

96. 47:25

    Garfield was not just gathering artifact and some of these other major titles um then our game producer was at ten years at Disney and they're working with blockade at startup rates right they're doing this because they're excited and they love it and they see the vision in addition to that the person that bought the game boss he came from the game space and like the Neopets creator is a

97. 47:49

    owner of one of our god keys which is one of our top 20 assets the developers are very excited so when you talk about these game companies you're talking about the business people that don't want it like get involved in the rest taking that game developers from the mainstream game space are super pumped and they're gonna be like they are so excited to play so I think that is something that is just it's just gonna

98. 48:12

    be a network effect because the builders were going to build it and then everything else will happen yeah I don't have that much to add on that I would definitely notice the same thing with the developers a lot of game designers game devs hate free to play even though free-to-play makes lots of money because essentially you're trying to work out how to extract as much attention and money out of your audience as possible

99. 48:37

    rather than creating a truly fun and deep experience maybe something which is interesting is whether legislation which is starting to come into play potentially against a lot of the free-to-play practices which is being looked at around the world might be able to be some force either fall or against adoption in blocking games so things like you know every single day there's uproar about whether kids are spending

100. 49:02

     too much time on fortnight or whether battle passes are too addictive and whether Luke traits are too addictive etc where there's something are this is a catalyst in some form could be quite interesting but otherwise I used strictly with all the same thoughts that we've heard yeah I just want to definitely support your your thought here that we as the Indies as the Indies we break the rules we are the ones that

101. 49:28

     disrupt so it's always coming from from below and but all the conversations that we had in our space with with bigger game studios everybody's looking at it obviously everybody's taking a look at it it's observing it and it's like when should we dance and then but they're waiting they're milking their cows and they will send out royalty will send out their shares of nothingham in form of loot boxes until they can't anymore and give it then to the people so it will happen and they all see it's that's the

102. 49:58

     future but they will keep on their milk cows hold on to the milk cows as long as they can and also maybe we can double click on delicate balance between gameplays and like really compelling stories and gameplays and this kind of new concept because blockchain brings to the table more like an economic side of things on a little bit new behaviour but then also the games have to be compelling right what we saw in the past

103. 50:21

     couple years were a lot of transactional games in blockchain space like gambling Ponzi schemes that kind of stuff so I was wondering how do we balance the compelling game plays together with this new technology yeah it goes back to many things that we said before I think obviously content as I said before is one of the key elements where we need to offer the people good games to play and

104. 50:45

     with that I mean the nude actually groundbreaking new thing here as we all know is that you can only the assets you can build on them you own them you maybe give you know give them to the future generations and then you have a whole environment that you built yourself so that hope that whole concept of ownership is entirely new and that in the proper gaming space and that is that's the disruptive part and now we just balance that as you said I mean if

105. 51:09

     we balance that with a proper content story great content to play with everything will be beautiful yeah I suppose the way we're thinking about it is you need to build a game which people would play anyway and if you can get that part down pat then blushin allows you to explore new ways of lowering CAC so customer acquisition cost and new ways of sort of increasing customer engagement so this is for people wanting to share their content they become advocates for the content there's cool things which is starting to

106. 51:43

     be explored by some people around the idea of music generated content and being able to like content creation on the game side it's one of our massive costs we've spent God knows how much on art at this point just to be able to support our game if you can outsource acting users and give those users a cut of that money by allowing them to be a participant in the space then that's

107. 52:05

     something that a increases engagement decreases acquisition costs and C allows something which was previously like a really big cost for the business to now turn into a zero I'd say with those transactional games that you're referring to that's somewhat of a punishing user experience so interacting with the game actually cost you user's money to do it a lot of times they didn't have something more valuable at the end of the day was based on however

108. 52:31

     the game was designed so I think that what we have the opportunity to do is really reward players in a way they've never actually been rewarded this financial sense of reward or a value creation that we can now have through these games which isn't by the way incredibly hard to do designing for open markets and open economies through what the game design is like something that the game space has been fighting like trying to figure out for decades really

109. 52:56

     so the fact that we are going to just embrace open markets and just take it head-on I think is it's an opportunity to see like how creative we can get because games can break real you can break a game economy very easily so you have to build in those buffers basically but so once you have this rewarding experience it doesn't cost you anything to create the value and you can walk away and have something valuable because

110. 53:21

     of the time you put into it that is a whole new area to be explored and that reward that players will have I mean now they're gonna their sense of gratitude towards the game company I think is something where they feel part of it content is king that's it yeah I would I think what we're seeing is a similar trend where game developers are obviously focusing on the game first and

111. 53:57

     decide and the asset management is one component of it the content is king kind of idea the the only thing I would add to that is I think there is another path and these sorts of experiences look a lot maybe they're not exactly games but they are virtual worlds with value exchange inside of them so I think the great example is the central event where they haven't really built a game yet

112. 54:21

     they're in theory building a platform where people can build games inside of it but at the same time it could be an interesting people an interesting place where people hang out and do things and because you can own the land they already have one of the biggest and Ft markets just based on pure speculation for the value of this economy you could imagine you can imagine taking loans off of your land you could imagine all sorts of financial things that you might do

113. 54:46

     inside of this world and it's hard to say whether at the end of the day that's a game or sort of a miniature economy with real property right so I think I think that's like another exciting Avenue is just the sort of very crypto native path that feels a lot like you know sort of where bitcoin was when it was first starting out but I think all of those fronts will lead to progress in the space and we'll take some questions

114. 55:12

     from the audience as well I was really I don't know anything about it I just saw the sign at consensus yeah I mean I think you know for us sort of it's a little ominous I suppose but it's also exciting because it does bring legitimacy to the collectible space I think the idea of having a big market you know for these things and an increasing exposure to the is is awesome at the end of the day I

115. 55:57

     think eBay I think we may see a similar sort of trend where it becomes difficult for incumbents to adopt full like blockchain native applications where you know for example with open sea you could imagine one day there might be user ownership of the marketplaces or something like a token and I think those sorts of big leaps will be a little more difficult for big players yeah so I

116. 56:26

     don't really know any other questions where you guys were and we ground breaker and base games but one of the biggest downsides user saw that the value that cryptic kiddies accumulated over time whereas you hear about the stories that some were sold for thousands and thousands of thousands of dollars but then the barrier could go back to that barrier to entry component of things how do you for example someone hearing about Garba kitties in 2019 where a lot of users have been

117. 57:05

     replicated space from the beginning and they don't have the financial stability to say yeah I can't drop 30 $40 for a Gen 1 crypto kitty or judge Sirica Katie how do you stop the manipulation of happening in the market and especially for people I say you have a game coming out on Friday how do you stop those individuals for applying in all the assets in the way and then manipulating future users in that space so just so

118. 57:37

     everyone heard the question question is how fucking crippled Katie's my users bought off the assets and now the assets are expensive and how do we prevent that from happening or in future games is that it yeah yeah well I would say good the first part of your question is like what are you trying to get out because there's a number of I mean thousands tens of thousands of casts in

119. 58:08

     the marketplace for less than two dollars right so the experiences men should be a game and you get into the game for a couple bucks and read and play and play the game before that right so if you're trying to buy it it's just kind of like it's a market right so the early kitties the more exclusive or rare kitties are worth more Nick you know they got bought by by early adopters it

120. 58:41

     doesn't mean that you know it wasn't if some of them became a financial speculation tool but it's not really the intent of it the intent is to to be a game so I think really what what we did what we can do is we made fun creative interesting experiences that people like playing some people will have more valuable assets others might not but it shouldn't affect necessarily the balance

121. 59:08

     of competitive nature of the game whether or not even have the hundred thousand dollar clip they're getting or the to download it would be it is more of a personal user investment and the price should never prevent people from playing games that I don't feel like that is the case of cookies yeah there are some outrageously priced difficulties but in any game economy there are people that spend you know people spend $100,000 it we do some free flaking and there's people that spend ten million dollars a year

122. 59:39

     so you know it's just creating a experience in a game where the user that spends the most money doesn't really get into the game does that help answer yeah yeah any more questions yeah I was wondering work the main technical challenges building the ocean gaming what are potential solutions that like to see to that we encourage prototyping remit that fostered ideas one of the big issues

123. 1:00:25

     that we had to deal with uh is just how gas heavy the original and some of the following implementations of a RC 721 are and we've had a couple of proposals where you can lose a little bit of fungibility in game a lot in terms of gas but that doesn't necessarily work for our use case either we ended up spending lots and lots of time and developer effort in redoing something which is compliant with a RC 721 just to get it to that stage where it doesn't clog the network like crazy so I think

124. 1:00:57

     we've sold over 4 million cards now and we haven't had any of those crazy spikes but if people anyone can build whatever they want if someone does an eff coin style spam like they did last year or if people build on basic versions of a RC 721 and are playing with the gas price in your game is too dependent on the gas price then that's a massive you know factor that's not even within your control in some times so I suppose scalability is the number one I think

125. 1:01:30

     that everyone up on this panel is 100% serious when they have a reasonable plan to get millions of users onto the blockchain so we need to make sure that we do it in a manner that doesn't ruin the blockchain for everyone while also you know being able to invest the R&D and hopefully but we all know that the layer one protocols are doing that as well themselves but making sure that everything is built in a scalable way for when these millions of users come

126. 1:01:58

     because they will to that point when we started our founder sale so the first people top 20 people had access to the sale 17 people are participating and we were taking up 50% of every etherion block right and that's like 17 people so if you could imagine lots of games happening even on layer 2 but on layer 1 doesn't take a lot to clog the network so yeah there's a lot of work to be done there I safer actually though for us development why is there's

127. 1:02:30

     a lot of work that's involved especially if you have tokens that are evolving through gameplay that so that requires your art pipeline and your production pipeline your game development pipeline and the networking like in the wallet somehow that that engineering piece that took us a year to really figure out and then also the content creation that you need is constant so every season we have so we're releasing in season season 0

128. 1:02:53

     season 1 season 2 that is so much work I think that if you're not a game developer you really just don't understand how much work that is yeah definitely scalability one big part that we have seen also in the development here is that we haven't really settled on the decision on what blockchain we want to build our game and release it then and so there is so much happening at all the time there's so much happening all the time

129. 1:03:22

     so there is to make a decision here an informed decision is sometimes really hard and as we mentioned before I mean the lack of standards is also something that it's a pain right so coming from a pretty standardized or standardized environment from the gaming space they're going into this little wild world there are a couple of just the bumps that you hit on the road and you trying also to build something there's now popping up left and right third party tools so to speak that are helping us also correct getting something on the

130. 1:03:54

     road which would also be playable across multiple blockchain so things like that are coming up and you're following the trends and seeing what's happening and what you can use and I think we achieved the biggest goal of all for us all here in the gaming ish space that we when we come to the point where I'm not talking about the blockchain anymore but we're just talking about the games and their

131. 1:04:18

     work so you're not talking about the engine you're just driving the car that's the goal from our perspective it's I wanted to add that so on our layer two we have custom contracts so the completely custom to our game native to our game are of all of our needs that we have but then when these assets move to me nuts any mean it so anything Evie I'm compatible basically we can support

132. 1:04:42

     those two assets are minted on this mean that networks in a standard that makes sense so that if somebody want to take something into God's and change it be you know we development wise we can all figure that out but that that's potential a cute on the layer to solution you can have all kinds of fun smart contracts that are really complex and unique for your game but those don't

133. 1:05:03

     have to be interoperable with these other games anymore questions and also I think you mentioned like a Robin Hood reference about how very large publishers and big players in the industry throwing their weight around or kind of directly the reputation is in the toilet yeah he's not really doing so good with loot boxes they they triggered a lot of interesting legislation to either moderate that stuff like that I guess one thing that I wanted to know

134. 1:05:48

     that that is gaming market places you have valve they have steam this gorgeous open nitro Epic Games has opens their own marketplace you have a lot of people a lot of already very large companies and some of them on the up-and-coming opening their own banking platforms other as a point of sale or just you know they equal great tools for content creation do you think that or as you

135. 1:06:18

     know owners of companies ourselves who had to make yield have you been approached by any of these these entities so you think that they would take play a really integral part in working this new approach to blocking in development I guess you can say it's hard for you do you think that they will come together or some either of their own power or you know Mir or another backing protocol will be brought up or approach them and

136. 1:06:54

     they'll come up with a really I think we kind of touched on this here I mean I think that's the eventualities large being companies will come into the space and lovers to watch-chain platforms but the companies you mentioned bow scheme epic can't remember the third one but no they're all looking fine what they're doing is printing money they're not gonna look at what we're doing that if they're looking at it they're saying oh this is interesting but they're not

137. 1:07:44

     gonna dive in or not gonna care about it until what I was it's too late but meaning it's too late for them to get in sheet so the valves and the ethics of blockchain hopefully will be made in this room and then we'll compete with them on some level will become part of that some of us might become part of those companies who knows but those companies are printing money and they're not gonna do anything this experimental

138. 1:08:11

     until the users frankly demand right so once the users flocking fucking to Looney watching experiences and they start bleeding users because what we're doing is working telling them what they're doing that's we must really manage and I think I touched on this very briefly in the beginning so the I totally agree with you by the way the so the unit is out of this world in the beginning right when they start its again it's the the Indies that's disrupt

139. 1:08:41

     right that break the rules that create something that other people need or want and want to do and so with that for our own games we designed tool that we needed to build something for console and we want to make this available to other developers as well so it comes really from the grassroots movement there and obviously it makes sense then to partner with unity or an unreal to have a plug in for that tool to work with other developers that are using

140. 1:09:06

     those tools already and just you know and really enriching and enlarge the environment that is already existing and that is the same for valve for all the platforms that will open up for our games as well as they know the moment comes that the users demand it I was just going to add our full context as well the amounts of money that you know the valves of the world make Swiss team

141. 1:09:34

     they're making 4.2 billion in primary sales and that again on downloadable content so eight billion dollars in the blockchain gaming space is nowhere near there right it's probably a hundred million or something at this point per year it's also quite interesting I definitely think that they will come into the space eventually their business model is based on the downloading and the distribution of the executable which

142. 1:09:58

     is where when you're in a rent based business where players are renting short-term entertainment of you that's very important as things are shifting into free-to-play and then into free-to-play with an economy maybe something like an open sea becomes more important than the as a source of discoverability or something then the actual downloading of the executable ever was so for the whole gaming space as well as its token game no matter is marketplace

143. 1:10:38

     or it's like content content related okay I don't put it on any major to news I finance itself so it will become like like a individual like like a national reserve currency at some point it's will become a individual economy right and do you think this is the biggest opportunity to a lot yeah maybe there I am again you know have a bunch of copies like ready for one and that's the biggest because as you guys thank you

144. 1:11:18

     for on their site lower cost of user acquisition over cause of gives a retreat from retention through the user-generated content and then in that case search of another issue failure is what it's gotta be the model supplies your policy was a most healthy way to keep that economy running when they have like all kind of millions of users are able to access that and maybe company or

145. 1:11:43

     maybe ID effect creditor one right so well will be the best like approach to create a healthy company we know that companies like even line has been done well and the upper low 30 has been sounds because of the option is really healthy so I mean all of you guys idea of like creating that like well first of all I would be filled with God's I'm chained cards became the national reserve time

146. 1:12:20

     coming soon exactly the new gold standard I think that what's really interesting is when you have a look at watching game something which is really interesting is separating maybe there will be some sort of popular digital currency itself I think that there's a lot of companies who are bigger than everyone here who we're trying to work out how you bring governance to that layer when you have a functional token especially when you're running your own protocols I think what we're finding is

147. 1:12:52

     really interesting is something that games have on that side even that politics doesn't is that people care more about our games than they do about the upcoming election so people are more passionate about God's Unchained then we've got an election happening in Australia this weekend and the level of sort of passion and craziness that you see from some of the users compared to you know federal politics is just on a

148. 1:13:17

     different level so you get really fast iteration times as well you know an election is something that only happens once every four years or so a game can be updated every week or even faster than that so you have this really interesting bed in which you can try to explore some of these ideas around governance and what that looks like when it's not just based on functional coins which have their own issues you know fall on them a minority etc how do you

149. 1:13:48

     incentivize good behavior and discourage bad behavior but also trying to explore what that looks like in a world where there's more value than just coins it could be through experimenting forms of liquid democracy where you can transport transfer your votes to other people and then you can be rewarded with either gameplay experiences or more value are so it can be you know unique cards if you vote on which cards should be banned from the upcoming World Tournament next year would be a good example and then

150. 1:14:17

     your votes can be calculated based on the aggregate value of all your NF tales and you can use different formulas like quadratic voting in order to minimize things like fraud on the minority but at the end of the day these are sort of technical solutions we're what we have is a philosophical answer which is that you can give more power to the player and the users and when you do that you can increase their

151. 1:14:41

     fan levels you could increase our engagement by giving them a little bit more you can start knocking down players who are bigger than yourselves and moving yourself up the popularity list so it's more profitable for you as it's studio it's more popular and profitable for the players and everyone's getting a little bit more so like we have purposely avoided having any fun jables

152. 1:15:07

     hogan in our game at all because what the how that that can fluctuate it can really break people people's investments and how they've invested into the game so you can have in-game currency but that you funnel that into your assets into your gameplay and then you can remove the assets themselves and trade them from real-world monetary value so we're not really focused on having any

153. 1:15:31

     sort of settlement layer solutions we just want to like have people to walk away with assets that reflect their time and value but in addition to that I had a really fun conversation with him on field glare from CCG who's the CEO for EVE Online and I was chatting with him about the this they've created this economy right it's not based on blockchain but they have a real world economy um something they battle with is

154. 1:15:55

     body and what they've done is they're are flagging people that they suspect our body so that other players in the nearby area can come and take care of them and then when they take care of them they get all the assets that are dropped and so it's like bounty honey like it's like taking the creativity using leveraging your your gamers and allowing them to solve these problems which is something that all of us have to think about when I think you guys also mentioned that like real world economies and asset and value creation

155. 1:16:29

     is the problem so we have to be creative and how we're going to take care of those problems you know on our rent for full layer one protocol we also I thought a lot about economics we talked to all the top economists in the country basically north of Chicago Columbia Stanford MIT and nobody is up to speed and this space so people kind of still catching up with like Bitcoin etherium come back five years behind so we had to basically

156. 1:16:53

     figure everything out in the house so to answer your question as it relates to general economics of the space it's not figured out so do you see a possible scenario for something like 10 cent or large becoming the world by revenue by the distance which has investments to games to supercell which is also the portfolio next to zero until the users demand it because it's too disruptive to the

157. 1:17:51

     current business and why would you don't come to username there's nothing in that sentence that needs to be disrupted I'm sure they were experimenting but I think loss to the plans or any no no it's next Israel that they do that and even if they did put a game on the blockchain I'm sure it's like giving the toe-in where it's not really what we're talking about in terms of blocking gaming so until again my answer of May until

158. 1:18:26

     the users y2r our experiences our games and the tens of millions none of those companies will disrupt their current business or users introducing that I know since 2007 that they let be in these or upstarts I mean yeah into it what's these wars be

159. 1:19:50

     these sports people are professionally fighting games for money I can see watching gaming unlocking any being able to play games for money so your 12 year old sitting in the basement playing fortnight all night he's not that great he's not going to get a live stream he's not going to get a sponsor but if there were TV s and items that he could be earning while playing he's spending his time or dolly with them right more possible so I actually if I understand your

160. 1:20:23

     question frankly I think I think it's a bit I mean not the exploitation part but I don't see is exploitation its exploitation as much as these professional gamers are live streaming of unions to make money that's not an exploitation that's so basically any time so what we can do with our games for example is we can a blacklist players that are abusive so anytime you violate terms and conditions we set then we can blacklist so these assets cannot interact with our game engine

161. 1:21:04

     essentially you can still have your assets but you can't play our game you can take it to God some chain though maybe I don't really have to eat oh we don't want to abusive players capable I think I mean the only negative thing I can see here is you know what we mentioned also in the beginning of what we've seen whether spectators expected to live she's very sorry german speculation part came into play where people were just like trade the assets right so it's really like a like you

162. 1:21:44

     know Wall Street type of engagement there rather then actually play in the game but we are moving I see this absolutely moving away from that because it's an environment where we have more more better better content and people are in it for playing the game and as you said I mean and if the kid in the basement then still can make now from all the hours of playing back on it that's better

163. 1:22:06

     I got one thing to that I think also it's important to remember that this is just a programming tool right you can there's all sorts of things you can build into your assets they don't necessarily need to be tradable for example the Gaza and Shane cards are not currently tradable and so there's all sorts of like the design space is very wide right and you know you can have assets that don't live on the blockchain for example so I think the way we see it

164. 1:22:32

     is watching is just sort of a means of coordination between companies right if a if dapper wants to launch assets they can instantly have the liquid marketplace for that they can be used in other games all sorts of things but you don't know you're not necessarily wedded to any sort of negative pieces of that other than the challenges of usability but but yeah I think at the end of day

165. 1:22:57

     it's just another tool yeah so Steve you about is very easy what are the tools or standards make easier for us developers of marketplaces kind of take integrity step program make it easy for you to make your items interoperable and as a follow-on to that how if at all are you thinking about residual values from traveling I tend to the idea that being in another environment up coming back somehow some fraction of that body you

166. 1:23:34

     come back to us or diffuser and so on yeah I can talk about the standards piece of it so I think right now er C 721 is almost like or what it needs to become is kind of like the JPEG right where cryptocurrency led to this native way to send money on the internet right kind of like being able to send a file over email now you can send ether from one address to another or near token so similarly I think er c720 ones are they

167. 1:24:12

     they're sort of primitive and the same primitive level of operations on them sending one from one user to another are still really early and and hard to use but over the course of last year I think we made a lot of progress towards making it feel more like sending a JPEG from one person to another so things that would help with that or there's a lot of experimentation in terms of how to represent these things so the idea of

168. 1:24:37

     semi fungible assets is kind of early on the metadata for these assets is something that's usually they're typically centralized to some extent and not very standardized so I think both of those areas would would lead to a lot of improvements for the second question I think that's really that's a tough one I don't have a good answer the one grain of salt I would add is I think there is

169. 1:24:59

     a case to be made for the these second layer games that build on top of existing things like crypto Kitty's adding enough value to the original game that there doesn't necessarily need to be programmatic incentives for the the second layer game to you know capture some of that value or the original game to capture that value but there there certainly could be interesting things you could play around with sort of incentivizing the interoperability of

170. 1:25:30

     these assets when they move to other environments but I think I think it's possible that we won't need those yeah I think that's true I just want to add quickly that you know these does have a secondary transaction fee so in the secondary transaction so that's something that it's scale it's meaningful I think more importantly this secondary experiences should and hopefully bring more engagement and more you know money moving into the

171. 1:26:05

     additional experience so secondary expenses one thing that we can all collaborate on is power right like if you've got a level 10 something in yon district I mean those are official partnerships we all have to work like on the core game if we're gonna recognize that power or not across universities but something that's interesting that we saw with crypto kiddies when these third-party developers - kiddies that

172. 1:26:27

     were not valuable and then they built a whole game around it and all of a sudden it like these cats were super valuable on their marketplace and they were like what's going on and like we can see things like that so something like that power distribution sure but maybe it's more creative to take assets that are undervalued and cheaper to accumulate for these developers and do something fun and interesting with them and other games yes so touched you in that last

173. 1:26:51

     point something which is possible is if you can find a market of a non-functional token which you think is undervalued and then build an experience on top of that after you've hoarded the market essentially then you can be the price setter for that asset ah one caveat I would probably say on the whole building digital experiences is that if you want to build a game ah unless it's a very simple digital experience which these will probably be built first and sort of explored quite thoroughly you

174. 1:27:21

     need to be very creative about how you do it because often these experiences can be very expensive so to create a video again it can cost anywhere from half a million to 2030 dollars so if you want to move past the sort of hobbyist developer level where you just have one person spending a bit of time to build an experience then I do think that there will need to be some sort of incentive that can make it worth their while cool

175. 1:27:55

     yeah I guess we'll wrap it up if we don't have any more questions