Abstractooors Assemble!

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:09

   okay um yeah so you want to do quickly do rounds and introductions for people especially the ones who cool yeah my major I'm one of the co-founders of an and we do intense and abstractions Beyond Your Wildest Dream SC hi uh I'm milia uh co-founder of near and we aggregating attracting and 're trying to deliver as a best us experience you can have hey everyone my name is leisel I'm one of the co-founders of entral and we're building an based infrastructure

2. 0:48

   including basically a universal DSL for uh hi everybody I'm sham found iron is a mechanism which allows anybody to stay eat and other tokens to secure all kinds of services we call actively Valu Z that all right I mean we've had a couple different possible directions to take this St in but maybe we could say we could talk a little bit from like where do you see where the project that you work on fit in this world of chain of

3. 1:29

   Str yeah oh W that's um I think my take is that like the world is going to be full of heterogeneous trust models I think like we're not going to live in this world where there's one Global Security model so we must figure out abstractions that allow users to specify the security models or trust zones that they care about right like if we're here in Denver and we pay things in Denver it makes no sense to have Global consensus over these things but it still be nice if

4. 2:00

   my sort of interface kind of RS in the same way that mobile phones kind of Ro right like I can take a phone from Europe to the US and it still works against the same online protocols and in blockchains it's like no buy a new fucking phone and start from scratch set it all up again uh this is like clearly not table model long term so I think sort of like also what you mentioned earlier um a lot of this will evolve

5. 2:25

   into uh applications abstracting this sort of complexity of chains away and users just defining in code to some extent what kind of settlements what kind of settlement guarantees people they care about so right like I may be happy to like transfer money here to like pay for coffee but when I want to trade I don't know some Bitcoin I may want to do this on the global decentralized system uh when I want to

6. 2:49

   trade stocks in New York I'm willing to do like the official New York Stock Exchange chain U but hopefully as a user I don't have to install new apps for all these things yeah makes a lot of sense um I mean on our side we kind of think from a a lot from a product side and from how do we enable developers to have these experiences where their users don't need to think about this and so the core piece that kind of we releasing in

7. 3:21

   months and it's out for people to build now is this idea that you should have one account that you can interact with with every chain every application kind of smart contract around there and then around that like what is the old infrastructure you know what are all the pieces that need to tie them all together from you know sement guarantees to experience to gas to all these pieces

8. 3:45

   and how do we make it easy for developers to build that to maintain that as some of the underlying things keep changing because this is kind of keep you know the protocols keep changing as well so I think like for us that's kind of the core kind of mindset shift I would say it's like hey instead of you know right now like people launching applications and they choosing a chain and they like either choosing because VC toldo them or

9. 4:12

   because they hope they can attract the users of that chain but like changing that mindset to like actually you can attract all users you can have kind of access to everyone and uh you know like you can have you know liquidity and all the coordination happening using software protocol like all my numbers and the experience for you is the same the experience is uh kind of single

10. 4:36

    account single model um so that's kind of what we pushing for nice uh yeah and essential I think one of the cool things we're thinking about is like if you think about it users have always in a way interative with blockchains fire intents in the sense that the user says all right this is what I want to be done and then some other third party says right this is how we're going to do it and there's an addition party that says

11. 5:00

    okay now I'm actually going to be the one to do this and uh the the disconnect there happens when the user is not able to express like fully this is what I want or the party that's saying this is how we're going to do it is actually like self-interested or only sort of drawing the users liquidity to one like specific um back end where you know most benefits whoever is cre that um that

12. 5:24

    transaction for the user so what we're doing is kind of figuring out all right how do you extract away even further within that flow so that the user can still just say this is what I want done but this third party that's saying this is how we're going to do it doesn't just have the power to dictate like this is the best way to do it but the power to actually um execute on that on behalf of the user and in the case where like you're looking at that purely from a

13. 5:49

    transaction perspective there's this Delta between um you know what this third party says I can do for you and then what actually ends up happening on J so what we're tackling at essential is figuring out how do you remove that delter and how do you make sure that you know the solution that's proposed to a user is actually what they end up getting without that additional execution r that happens up between the the point of transaction and the point of uh settlement so yeah that's sort of

14. 6:13

    the the high GL of VI awesome um from our Viewpoint the you know when you when you think about train abstraction um you can only abstract things that are easily parameterized so imagine there are like hundreds of chains each of them have like their own arbitary trust mods then what is the right abstraction you conve this to the user it's actually pretty pretty complicated because each user has to say like I need this chain I prefer a b CD chain but not e g j k chain all these

15. 6:53

    kinds of very non-fungible Expressions so our VI is or our role in this whole ecosystem is to abstract security abstract trust Ms so if you're building let's say a bunch of different chains on aair each of the chains can have a measurable amount of Economic Security attached to it and you know this measurable amount of Economic Security you know imagine there's a common 10 billion pool on I and you have like 100 Services each service or chain

16. 7:28

    can ask for a certain amount of Economic Security from Ireland and has the rights to uniquely slash and redistribute funds in case the service or chain breaks Fidelity and so what this means is fundamentally to the users of that chain as long as the net transaction volume that was happening in the chain within some challenge period is less than the Amon State they are actually operating under unconditional Economic Security which basically like either their

17. 8:00

    transactions go through and they they get what they have promised or if their promise is broken they'll be able to slash and redistribute and and acquire the same amount of insurance relative to the cost of transactions that they actually uh undergoing so this we think is a fundamental unlock to now abstractions that can now be with on top because security is now abstracted and funable I have a measurement mechanism

18. 8:28

    for what is enough security is it 30 nodes is it 50 nodes and so on but instead here we convert everything into pure Economic Security and you can actually allocate Economic Security as a unit and then you're operating through like one of these interfaces which are Universal aggregators across all the chains you may be saying hey I'm doing this transaction across these three chains and the transactions value is

19. 8:53

    $110,000 make sure that whatever security mechanism underlies these things actually have has cover at greater than $10,000 and now I'm unconditionally covered relative to all the actions that happen under it so that's our role our role is to abstract security itself as a commodity so then you can actually have changed the consume security as a as a commodity and then that propagates Upstream to users who can then Express very specific preferences relative to

20. 9:24

    these actions Okay so maybe a little bit of a spicier question which is how will what you're building interoperate with what other people are buing with on this panel and uh just in general you mean will not interoperate this 5 version of the or not interoperate exactly how are you a selfcad universe unto yourself that no one nothing else and we we don't have SL so how can you build a a a like what are

21. 10:05

    the parts of the solic system that you feel like you need to plug into um that are like probably most important for like success I think from our side um I know more a protocol right like this is mostly it's designed as a way for developers and users to have sort of a standardized API that solves comp into where you say well I have an intent that wants to go from A to B um and I don't care how this gets settled I just care

22. 10:36

    that like I get from A to B under some assumptions uh AA makes very little assumptions on where it's actually deployed you can deploy AA to a to ethereum you can deploy to near you can deploy anoma as an i layer chain uh anoma really doesn't care that much about antic security model this is more for the user to choose but this is confusing because aren't you a Blain there also happens to be a blockchain

23. 11:02

    but uh you don't have to use that specific blockchain if you don't really want that specific security model everybody needs a blockchain like you know that yes in the end I think like this really comes down to uh individual users will pick security models and I think it's I I'm not yet certain that we really know what the security model landscape is looking like I I can see a world in 10 years where parents won't give a shit about like Economic Security they'll like they'll want the chain run by their local government and that's it

24. 11:35

    right like because most people are like very happy with physical security um and this is sort of the closest analogy that I think the real world has to security models uh so I I think the uh jury is still out on what sort of security models people will actually want in like the next 5 to 10 years you're saying instead of Economic Security you want security with GS yeah I think it's the

25. 11:58

    highest level slashing I mean you support that I think it's a very reasonable security de it's like I live in Switzerland I like Switzerland uh I mostly trust Switzerland like I'm to a large extent I trust Switzerland Swiss security and like adherance to rules more than I trust like 99% will chains like this is a better security mod I'd be very happy with the Swiss government runs me do yeah so on our side I mean we see

26. 12:29

    kind of uh lots of different like you know layers of De cake that uh that uh pretty much all together composed into different experiences and so um that's why we working with on you know fast finality we have you know working with polygon of agregation you know for Z proof uh offering dat availability for rollups we will you know open up the kind of int for underation as we actually executing so

27. 13:03

    the idea is like in every layer of Stack there first of all there should be options and then you should be able to compose with everything else around that and uh we have for example Central asron that right now already rups uh and some other chains and offer kind of fully you know decentralized experience to access all the applications without actually touching near when you're actually interacting

28. 13:27

    with them right so the idea is like at every layer you have kind of optionality and you have tooling that is decentralized that opens up kind of new use cases and so like for us the broader vision is like how do we bring everything into self- sovereignty how do we really enable this kind of uh experience that everybody can leverage how do we you know unify and aggregate security how do we uh unify and aggregate accounts how do we unify and

29. 13:52

    aggregate user experiences kind at every level um kind of offer that tool and to developers to build better applications yeah I mean I guess I also want to shout out the the good people at Frontier and everyone else involved in the in the cake um uh standardization working group to ask this exact question you know a lot of us are build really exciting but quite different things and being able to figure out how we stop fragmentation from reaching the abstraction layer it's going to be like one of the most important questions I

30. 14:23

    think over this week and maybe maybe this year um but on the on the level of entral specifically um and and interrupt like one of the the most important things we're doing on the high level is being sure that like regardless of what system the user wants to interact with or knows that they're interacting with and they're able to do that um through like the same interfaces via um an

31. 14:46

    intent based constraint based programming language um that's extracted away from the user um via various like frontend or wallets but that ultimately um you know there there's interoperability like throughout the space and since that whatever whatever user want to be able to express um can be like translated into a language that is understandable across the stack and across the framework so whether that is then an intent um or a constraint that is being fulfilled on um our essential

32. 15:13

    protocol or on any other protocol um that the user will be able to like specify that and have um have full access to like the ENT entire cross chain space um and I suppose there's like an additional level of of uh abstracting like underneath different different trains um with with some of the stuff that we're doing with uh basically like building an execution L DM that allows for like direct settlement of intense fire constraints um but that's a much deeper conversation so the that we've got left so

33. 15:46

    sure um I think it is just a security zone so you and and it's built on ethereum okay and built on ethereum why is this important it's important because when you have multiple trust zones which are moving B around if you don't have a common trust Zone you're going to be limited in the amount of economic value you can unconditionally correctly sell so imagine there are you know 10 chains

34. 16:11

    and each of these 10 chains have some amount of State associated with them they're all on disparate separate zones then when you interoperate across These Chains you can never move value which is greater than the amount of State across these states because because if you try to move value which is greater than the amount of State then you will be you know you may not be secure if you just take this pely unconditional secure model but if you had something like you know a common

35. 16:42

    settlement Zone like eum and where all these different chains settle and you know if something goes wrong people can raise fraud proofs and if nobody raises a fraud proof for a certain period you can assume that whatever was stated was actually correct now you can start moving value which is much higher than the amount of steak available I think this is a very very very important property imagine you want to put like

36. 17:06

    you know one of the goals of our whole Space here is in bringing you know all let's say things like real world assets into blockchains I want to bring a$1 trillion Bond into a blockchain and I have whatever $10 million security is simply insufficient when you have common settlement zones which can actually perceive and verify the accuracy of these claims if you're willing to wait you can actually transport an infinite

37. 17:30

    amount of value unconditionally solely and that's why we think like aggregation around a common trust zone is important and we look around and what the zone is and it's pretty clear that e so we we do so that's one place we don't interrup right is etherum De Zone that we uh narrowed down to and you know we we've written papers for example on multi-chain trust aggregation can you get stake from 10 chains and together

38. 17:56

    from a stronger uh you know basis there are lots of problems these these zones can desc like one of the zones can fork and then now you're left with like uh like a security model which is broken when you want to write a settlement across 10 zones you have to make sure that uh you know you're writing you know these fraud proofs and validity proes and ZK proves across end zones makes it

39. 18:19

    very difficult already you know we don't have proper working systems on one chain so you know it's a much much harder push to get it working consistently correctly across all the CH so all of these drive us to that's one cut which is ethereum is this element Zone on top of which we can now build this substrate or further Economic Security to move value around at a much faster Pace than can be

40. 18:42

    supported by the dative sement so that's the boundary of so on top of this state now even start building arbit M and so that's that's where everything think work okay so we brought up the topic of settlement I guess I'll we got 5 minutes left and we're supposed to talk about settlement players so um but I'll ask two questions uh what is a settlement zone or like what is settlement um is it

41. 19:07

    a blockchain um and is it ethereum or is it Circle yes um what a settlement I mean settlement is all about state right like where do you trust your state to be uh securely stored and securely transition from of state A to State B uh and I think this like where you want settlement to happen this is very fundamentally local Choice like I think some people very I mean you can probably tell by now I'm very like local first like I think some people will be very happy to for their security Zone to be their Village um because like

42. 19:49

    they've known these people for the last like 50 years this is the fundamental security Zone that they trust um so I think this is where they will want to be settled because this is sort of the uh social consensus that they trust um if you live in and in Argentina you may not trust the government's economic policies as much and you're much more worried about uh censorship and things like this so in that case you may want to go for

43. 20:16

    like a globally decentralized thing right uh so I think settlement really are like what is the settlement chain is in the eye of the beholder and everyone will have a very different answer to what they care about and I think it's kind of uh sort of uh unworldly to assume that we can define a global settlement system that everyone in the world will agree to uh this is sort of akin to the discussion like we don't have a one world government for roughly the same

44. 20:42

    reasons because different people will have different uh requirements from the system that they trust with their state um and it's probably going to be Circ um but that's s a different discussion sadly I mean I think the way I think of Salomon is that's some specific set of guarantees that this transition will not be Ven and so and because of this you can now go and do something in real world you can deliver Goods you can you know have a party and so to kind of indeed

45. 21:21

    like settlement is in the eyes of the beholder and so like but you know the eyes of beholder kind of way easier to drive something like for example Bitcoin um even though it can fork and somebody potentially potentially is mining 51% for for the past four years and going to like present it right now and roll back everything that happened right that is in the realm of possibility but but we still kind of trust the current uh thing and so that's why it is important to

46. 21:51

    understand that the I have a Beholder in in settlement state but at the same time you have you know a set of guarantees around like well to roll back somebody needed to spend you know this much money this much energy this much time this much uh resources and so that guaranteed out allowing you like you know probably the the payment I did for my coffee you know probably nobody will go and like uh

47. 22:15

    you will Fork the this chain and so I think where ZK is interesting adds to this and like for me that was you know as I saw as Z kind of actually become production is that you can now have have something that I can prove to you that this has happened and you don't need to have you know billions of dollars of like Financial Security for the proof of that it's happened now you still need like data ability you still need like a bunch of pieces and kind of data information verication all kinds of like

48. 22:48

    stuff but that itself enables really interesting new things where even if Circle wants to roll something back uh you know if we do have Z Pro for example so uh it it is like now becoming a very kind of you know contested type of thing where uh especially Z proofs are like cross reference imagine like eum Z proof is posted on near Z proof posted on you know CMAs Anda and coric and everywhere and so now like to roll back you had a need to roll back the whole E3 and I

49. 23:21

    think that that's uh would be really interesting to see as this kind of security aggregation ification happening that um you can't have indeed local settlement like hey I executed this transaction here's CK proof you know I share this my Village everybody's like cool and then you also show it you know posted in one of the global blockchains and then they'll into link and so in 1 hour you know of propagation or

50. 23:44

    hopefully one second propagation um you like rolling this back will require you know all of the market cap of every chain plus you know lots of engineering could actually happen actually the engineering is the bigger cost exactly um settlement yeah I guess like the way I I conceptualize It Is by breaking it down into sort of two components one being like fulfillment and the other finality saying on the one hand you know making sure like all right this isn't roll back it's finality

51. 24:15

    component but the other component is fulfillment which like if you bring it sort of back into the real world it's like you know has my package been delivered to my house like yes this has been fulfilled and from a user perspective like the Fulfillment is really the most important thing obviously like finality um is important but what the user is looking for is like has this outcome that I have have asked

52. 24:37

    for actually being achieved and uh the way we're focusing on doing that is by actually sort of removing like the the gap between um like fulfillment from the solo level like okay this is the best solution an actual fulfillment as onchain inclusion so the solution that's actually been executed and the Delta between the proposed outcome and the actual onchain outcome um is where I see like the sort of most interesting

53. 25:03

    conversations about Sim in the chain exraction context I think sing problem is something that we all need to be discussing it all um but I see the cops round so you know thank you CH uh I'll say something quick a settlement zone is what you are referencing for if there's a canonical Ledger of record for an asset how do you derive it right if it's relative to some Zone that's what we call the settlement Zone

54. 25:32

    there's a canonical Ledger of record for the asset add the sement and as much as I appreciate the bottom up you know Community computer ethos that Cosmos I don't see the computers I see functionality computers right now if I look around in Cosmos I don't see anybody trusting their local government or anything like that I see people using different CH for different functionalities the problem that happens when you have chains that are functionalities and you're taking trust

55. 26:06

    assumption on each of these functionalities when you compose across these different chains you get the worst of the trust assumption across all these different functionalities that's what happens when you interoperate the community computer with the composable computation ethos that crypto is building so my sovereignity is capriciousness from a third party point of view I can do whatever I'll rule back I'll do this I'll do that then you should not compose with other things without giving rigid guarantees on what

56. 26:39

    you're actually agreeing to all we saying when we're agreeing to a Sal layer is what is the set of common things that you're agreeing to when you're interoperating if you don't want to interoperate you should be sovere that's the right answer if you want to interoperate to the extent that you want to interoperate with people who don't want to take a counterparty trust assumption on you which is what the whole point of crypto is then you need

57. 27:02

    to understand what architectures that will actually Empower you to do that so that's why we think there is to build Global Systems of coordination to build systems to redeem solve the problems that we're seeing in the world today where we don't have a global view of what is the right composition layer for Global Finance for Global coordination that's what we think ethereum and I aspirations

58. 27:29

    I didn't answer the question about Circle you know T to well we're out of time and thank you very much guys thank you