The Potential dApps of Chain Abstraction w/ Sid from Electric Capital

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   nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstract.com for more information hey man how you doing um doing great excited to be here how you doing good very good it's CC has been kind of a lot uh so kind of trying to trying to get um trying to calm down a little bit before the storm hits again

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   um but yeah obviously this isct yes uh this this is chain abstracted uh we keep it quite very conversational right like um we obviously set up some questions but I I usually direct the um direct it according to what you answer right so um but yeah love to love to hear a bit more about who you are um what brings you to crypto and uh how you join to I guess electric let's let's start with that and if you can give a bit more introduction

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   to Electric as a font uh I know you guys pretty well I know a bunch of folks do but still would love to would love to hear a bit more yeah absolutely uh thanks for having me uh I can jump into you know a background about Electric Capital Electric Capital was founded in 2017 uh by vual and Curtis uh they have founded and sold a few startups uh they were at Facebook for a long period of

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   time before they themselves inevitably went down the crypto Rabbit Hole um since then they've invested across you know everything within the crypto space invest in crypto and fintech everything within web 3 from the infrastructure side to defi uh to a lot of the consumer side as well um and it's it's been great Absolut great opportunity uh to be able to work here at electric a little bit

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   about myself um so I got into crypto around 2016 2017 as well I was always interested in financial markets and trading and there was this new market with crypto that was just absolutely exploding especially Back Then There Were Ico this Ico that you know EO EOS raised an crazy amount of money and it didn't make sense to me how all these companies were raising a ton of money I thought it would be a great idea to go out and short these tokens and I'd go out and become a millionaire uh because

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   I would be right that you know most of these tokens and stuff are never going to launch luckily back then there wasn't an easy way to short these things otherwise it probably would have blown up before uh being proven right but I got around to reading the Bitcoin white paper the ethereum colored coins white paper and you know back then everything was about white papers uh so I just read a lot about this and it made sense for me to you know jump into crypto it's

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   like this new industry where there wasn't a lot of right answers and that's actually what excited me there was a world where people were still figuring things out you know I could learn significantly more within this ecosystem versus you know joining the traditional Market whether it being the tech or Finance space um and I could actually have an influence on how this industry is shaped and moves forward and is

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   actually able to like enter the rest of the world um so it became quite clear that I was going to you know commit to crypto in 2019 I joined a company called Falcon X uh they're in institutional Prime brokerage I joined when there just about 15 20 people um but it was great to to see them skill I worked on product trading and lending um worked with a number of different customers miners uh

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   hedge funds Venture funds aggregators so it was great to be able to learn about crypto Market structure uh but I wanted to dive a bit deeper into crypto I wanted to be able to do stuff on chain I wanted to talk to people building in this space um and I wanted to actually invest have an opinion have a thesis uh that we're investing based on and actually have skin in the game from there so uh a little over two years ago I joined electric it's been absolutely

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    fantastic I spent a lot of my time thinking about uh defi stay coins lending derivatives um as well as um other layer one ecosystems so obviously near um also spent some time looking at Cosmos um on the salana side as well um but yeah excited to be here okay this is a spicy question you said you said is you know there was no right answers when you joined right wrong answers yeah yeah has

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    that evolved is the is there right and wrong answer in crypto today what do you think hm that that's a that's a really good question I still think there are a lot of situations where there aren't right answers but I think it's become increasingly clear when something is the wrong answer um especially given how um speculative this industry can be there's often a disconnect between you know what should be built versus you know what the

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    market wants um and sometimes people make shortcuts and end up going for what the market wants whether it be in terms of you know just trying to build stuff for speculation versus actually trying to build PRS for the long run um and and yeah so I think it's become clear what the mistakes are as people have gone and experimented and that's a good thing you know people this there is still room for

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    experimentation people should be willing to try new things without uh necessarily the fear of being wrong uh but there's there's no use in not looking at all the the learnings that have occurred over the the last 12 years of crypto okay yeah that's interesting um so I mean one of the things you mentioned about Investors I mean investors have clear opinions right like when you see when you see K Sani on

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    Twitter he has strong opinions uh AV himself has sometimes like have strong opinions it show is everyone right I mean it's an industry where you have to kind of thesis of thinking and kind to get to a point where you say well this this company makes sense this company doesn't make sense this will this I mean in S of like liquid thisto can make sense right um yeah how do you sort of what what do you think about this like

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    100 like maybe thousand chains not even 100 chains I would say cuz it's you know like currently 45 l2s active 80 to come it is very clear that there's going to be thousand l2s uh I think we're getting close to 100 l1s I'm pretty sure I if you look at top 100 uh is this the one like is this the right way to like go through the space you think or are we just like lost in a sense that we're just launching W chains and thinking it does something nice for us yeah that's a

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    good question um I don't think it's like as one of those situations where it's it's wrong for there to be a number of different chains and I think it's like one of those things it's not right or wrong but I think it's inevitable um I think people want customizability people want uniqueness I think community and brand is a big thing that really matters in crypto that you know that type of

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    loyalty doesn't necessarily try uh transfer to trafi companies or web two companies um and people also care about autonomy in a way that they also didn't care about um in traditional products and ecosystems so I think those factors are going to continue to lead to significantly more chains you know those were just l2s but you know we're still seeing other l1s being launched and

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    those ecosystems being built out now there's infrastructure to help launch l3s and there's probably like a middle ground of things that pick and choose you know this entire world of modular allows you to pick and choose everything that you do want and there will always always be some combination of these tools that matters more for one person than the other um so I don't think that wave is necessarily going to stop we're going to continue to see more and more chains they'll look bit a bit different

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    but what whatever you want to call it rollup chain I think we're going to continue to see an explosion of that what I I'm not a fan of obviously is the amount of fragmentation uh that occurs as a result of this on on all aspects first in terms of just Capital right you know you can have like a similar project with there be a Daxter lending protocol across 50 different protocols but each individual protocol each individual

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    chain has limited access to the capital that's available either from a trading or lending or whatever dii perspective that you want to look at it uh the second would be you know from a security perspective and obviously this is incredibly top of mind for you but and like Ian layer and nuffle with unified security layer I think will be a great progression forward there you can't have you know 100 validators all indiv ually

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    going to 100 different chains ideally you want to be able to share Security in a way that multiplies without having to build up from uh Ground Zero I think we've seen a couple different attempts of this you know I think like Cosmos a few years ago was really looking to to build out like IC and interchain interchange security and shared security but I think you need to have the couple pieces of building the community actually having traction within uh

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    platform and also being able to capture value in a way that's not um rent extractive but you know proportional to the value that you're providing so we talked about like Financial fragmentation um as well as security fragmentation but I think also just in terms of Mind share and developers and users um you know likely there's like a marginal difference between maybe this L2 and another L2 um how do users who

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    aren't spending you know 100 hours of their week on Twitter like you and I might be like be able to actually decide um you know which project should I go out and use which which ecosystem should I go out and develop in um and I think that fragmentation is probably like the biggest issue um but I think the this is a problem that crypto generally is quite aware of but I think we're looking

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    towards like better solutions to that like Bridges today still aren't gray I think we'll definitely get into the chain exraction side of things quite deeply but improving the ux and making it easier and you know agnostic to where the underlying transaction is happening or where the underlying protocol has been deployed too there's still a lot of work that needs to be done there okay I agree with the

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    fragmentation I mean most of the folks would agree uh like everybody saw that in um not only from El's perspective but also even in events last week right like etcc had tons of different events because there's a bunch of l2s now that they want to they do their own thing and then like suddenly like you see on E fium not only on the liquidity side fragmentation of the conferences which just because it's like because I guess

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    like Community is fragmenting right like communities now like I have this move L2 I have this like evm L2 I have thism L2 whatever and then those have different characteristics but they are still ethereum um and I think every team has like the right to to try to establish themselves and like push for their ecosystem you know I think there is no reason to to not have one versus the other um but yeah but how does ecosystem

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    look like in that world right like can you I this is like something that came to my mind word shatting it's like you know um what is it like what does it mean to win an ecosystem like it used to be like salana like I'm cool uh but how do you think about like fragmentation of community like do you guys have any thought about that internally yet or what's the think yeah and and that's one of those things where for Community you

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    you don't have to just be a part of a single Community whether like you're a user developer Builder or like an L1 and like maybe some sort of community manager you as an individual can be part of multiple different ecosystems and multiple communities per se but you know you can't be a part of 100 different communities and at that point were you doing in any of them so I think there will be competition and that's where I

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    think like brand marketing and also like your token incentive model actually plays into this as well right I think one of the biggest things that help you create a community is obviously like being Val like providing value and being loyal to them making it interesting but actually producing some sort of wealth effect for them is probably the strongest way you can go out and build a community um and because of that it

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    doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive if you can as a protocol developer work with other protocols to make your protocol more valuable or more they more protocol valuable and you can find a way to distribute that value back to your token holders or the users or other developers in a way I think that will become increasingly important um and that will probably help in terms of

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    fragmentation um but otherwise I think it'll continue to be uh you know I don't want to say like night fight it's not going to be violent but I think there is going to be significant demand and significant competition for just mind share across these things because it doesn't seem like the launch of these new ecosystems are going to slow down um but we'll likely see just more competition in that space okay just like I mean Hobbies or

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    Sports you play I mean you kind of play a couple Sports and you kind of part of like iple communities in the real world right you just don't like being part of one Community it's and and because we're seeing you know online communities you know this probably didn't exist apart from like small forums over 20 years ago and now we're seeing massive communities on Twitter Reddit Discord um other

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    platforms you know even like foraster and ecosystems like that um but at some point you know you're not going to continue to participate in every single ecosystem it definitely helps that these things are online but it's probably the the relationship that you have with that community may not be as strong as the relationship that you might have with like the the community of people that you play sports with or the community of people that you end up working with in

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    some capacity in real life yeah yeah fair I mean yeah so we talked about I guess like too many L2 l1s what do you guys think about like the investment pieces there like what is the what is the value C that you would see um what Solutions people should build if people are listening to this or you know like where does the Val crew in this world like is it l2s is it l1's is it Bridges you know like um how should one think about this

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    model yeah that's uh that's a tough question we we we ask ourselves this question quite frequently um in terms of there are the l1s there's middleware that connects all the different l1s and l2s um and now you're even seeing l3s you have different info providers in between all of that and you have actual consumer apps um so one where is the value going to crew and you know where

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    does that value ultimately get distributed across I don't I don't think that it's going to be the same for every ecosystem I think there could be some ecosystems where l1's AC most of the value some ecosystems where l2s AC most of the value um right now I think there seems to be a significant focus on the consumer side um in trying to on board and people believe that as as these

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    These are the places where people are going to the actual front end or the front actual ux to interact with it even if there are all these pieces behind um it's it's likely that the like these consumer apps are going to get most of the value but I would kind of take the other side of that and even though you can probably get mind share and you know win some part of the market by being the main protocol in front of them if that

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    protocol you know is unable to actually function or scale or continue to meet the demands of the user then I think it's going to you're going to see competitors uh flock up and ultimately it will likely be the l1s that seem to acre the most of the value um I think in defi it is a slightly different situation because you have one speculation and a lot more clear Financial value that is tied to these

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    things in a way they that might not be for some of the more just purely Tech focused uh projects or the purely consumer focused projects I think it's a little bit easier to see how D5 protocols can capture a bit more value there and redistribute it between either token holders um I think we're seeing this idea of like protocol owned liquidity and treasuries capturing a lot more value uh on that front and coming up with creative ways you know do we distribute it to the users on the platform do we distribute to token

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    holders do we do buyb and burn um and I think that there is these l1s and l2s can probably learn from defi to understand you know what you know it's clear maybe to them like what value they're providing but how does that fit into the broader ecosystem and where can I actually capture that value and then you have to think about like your users and developers I don't think there's one of those things again there's no right answer but you can learn from the

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    mistakes of the past to ensure that you know you kind of have your Moote and you building defensibility from that perspective said something interesting which is essentially thing you can build the best app but then you are let's say the old chains right I'm not going to men your names but old chains that can't scale um you build it there eventually you are stuck yeah um or it could be

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    that you launch on L2 let's say that's since uh def like since amm launched it there and then you suddenly see well I'm not going to be able to scale this thing because of XYZ or there's other apps that are using this platform and they're also using heavily so the gas speeds are going up right um like what do you yeah yeah there's a certain com like component of I feel like lindin to this you know the longer something has been around the longer they're going to survive and it it goes hand inand with

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    uh like the challenging problem of defensibility with crypto you know given that everything is open source like whatever that you do Deploy on chain is is readable and visible to anyone that like wants to be able to do to it and like can instantly Fork it and you know add some fancy token on top so how do you build defens ability you know with without defensibility you there's no point of asking about how you can capture value right um because it's unlikely that you're going to keep any

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    value that you're um that you that you are producing within this ecosystem um and I think that's where kind of like your token needs to come into play and instead of just having you know this massive airdrop or um just trying to help or just trying to create some liquidity mining program to get people excited about it people need to think a little bit more deeply about you know

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    why would someone want to even own my token in the first place you know speculation is the answer that comes to mind but there are multiple reasons why someone would want to own token more than just speculation right even if the value is going to stay stable you know am I getting some sort of governance power as a result of that do I get to control emissions do I get some sort of

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    the fee um that this platform is capturing and having Buy in from that I think helps contribute to that um one thing that I would like to see with protocols that are kind of working together is actually doing some sort of token swap of that represents the strength of these Partnerships um because one thing that would make it very hard for a fork to imediately take all of your users and do some sort of vampire attack that we've

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    seen before is if the major users the major partners and other major owners in this protocol have bought into your token and have economic incentives that make them care about the long-term value about this token they're less likely to go abandon you to to join some sort of fork or other copy of your project um and I think that also ties into how exactly do you think about the incentives that are being structured you know who should be receiving these incentives beond the ultimate user um are there other parts of this ecosystem

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    that you need to tie into and reward um and another question that maybe some poers um don't spend enough time thinking about is how will the market value your token and this is a very tricky one because once again there there is no right answer and the answer to this can change overnight given how quickly crypto narratives can can explode and implode um but being able to understand why the market will

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    value your token in some way and that can help you understand you know the right way to think about these things so it was a long would it answer I don't know if that answer your question but hopefully it's valuable it makes sense I mean tokens are hard in a sense that you know you can think really hard about who's going to buy your token but then you kind of go and say hey to is a product right I mean everybody knows this is the case I

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    mean yeah obviously this is a near F podcast but like we know that everybody every protocol has a token um but then the other thing is like um yeah you know um like meme coins you kind of if you're as an entrepreneur you see the meme coins that like there's no any any thought that's put into it it's just a meme and then it's actually hired a your protocol that does like all the stuff so

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    it's like it's kind of hard to it's kind of hard to see how that works but again mem coins alive because as you said people had already wealth people gained wealth off of correct the me and that's like a I think m coins are probably the like the loudest expression of like Community online right you know and I think that's what people are yearning for um especially you know as you saw I

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    mean during D5 summer in 2020 like there were massive communities that were formed around some of these core ecosystems like curve year um and and many of these projects then and we during that cycle we saw like these m coins like Sheba and now you're seeing like a significant influx with all the the m coins and salana and people look to it as if you know this is is like the waste andless is like the problems with crypto and you know it's not great that like many of these tokens are scams or

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    rugs in some way but I don't think that's a reason to actually point to like all meme coins as being being bad for the space if anything a lot of like the pure Tech or the pure infro could try to like learn from how can we take advantage of what we're seeing on the meme side you know what if we launched like we did our own meme thing and like participated in some way to help establish a community well understanding you know that's like not the main thing

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    that we're trying to build but like how do you meet the market at what it wants I think is a good skill that me more people need to think about but yeah so another question I usually tend to ask is like what is um what does chain abstraction mean to you I mean there's a different answer to everyone you guys are investors and kind of deploy capital on chain offchain I mean offchain is a startup I guess um but like how do you

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    think about that what does that mean to you yeah the the ultimate Vision I think for chain exraction is I can use any dap on any chain from any wallet you know I think that's like the simpl expression of chain extraction to me I think the world that we all want to and should want to to build towards um I think we're we're quite far from that World um but I think like near with a lot of the chain abstraction efforts and you know you guys in I layer helping on

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    the security side can help improve a lot of these things um we obviously know that bridges in the world and the way that they look like today aren't the best ux or like security answer to helping help understand and actually participate in this crazy world of 100,000 plus chains uh but I think that we're not going to see a Slowdown there necessarily if anything there's just going to like exponentially increase in the number of venues and the amount of

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    block space that exists within the ecosystem um but we need to figure out a way either from the account side or on the user side to make it easy for every individual to be able to participate everywhere on Chan um without having to ultimately understand all the tech behind the scenes right I should be able to go to any website regardless of where it's hosted and I am you know and I think that should be like a similar

58. 24:18

    thing for um for crypto yeah the other thing like people don't realize and maybe don't think about chin abstraction is like if you think about reaking abss they're actually chin abstracted products yeah um in a way that like because when people say chin abstraction they think oh like bridging with like buying something without bridging or like doing something um um how do you how do you

59. 24:44

    guys think about reaking and like what does it allow that it wasn't possible before I know like sh I'm talks about verifiable Cloud but just just like what your what is your mental model as an investor and what are the interesting things that people can build with reaking yeah um it's a good question can you say that can you say the the first part of that question again yeah the question is basically like you know I mean verifiable cloud is kind of like chin abstracted apps right

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    yeah what does like reaing allow and what are some good examples that you see that people can build on top yeah so I think like the the first part of you know why we like reaking why we like IG layer um is just like how much it enables like crypto and specifically ethereum to scale um before you know you have to you'd only be able to provide security to to one ecosystem but now being able to effectively

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    leverage that I think is is quite awesome um and you can kind of see this Middle Ground where you have these like kind of parallel um ecosystems like monad and scale and then you have like these l2s and then you have these abss which can have a certain amount of autonomy but can still depend on eth for um like are the eth security and build off of that eat Security in terms of the use cases there that's something I'm still kind of looking into um I think

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    the verifiable cloud stuff think you think you mentioned is interesting I think there's a lot of things happening on crypto plus AI I think we're still quite early with crypto plus AI but I think being able to actually kind of like verify the the the entire life cycle um whether it be from like the actual collection of data to the training of the data um and being able to actually access these models uh I think will be super interesting um I

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    think AI itself is in a in a little bit of bubble um you know looking at like chat Bots seems quite primitive um in terms of like what can be the true expression of AGI we'll likely see you know AR official special intelligence I think more progress being made there and it's likely too early for crypto to be like majorly influential to that but I think important things will be built um

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    on the near side on the layer side so I think um AI plus crypto could be very interesting as well I think like onchain agents could be could be really cool uh and actually being able to verify and manage that whether it be across you know automated Bots or more consumer side applications as well I think that could be interesting yeah in a world where you can grab security from ethereum and Bitcoin why do you think there's still space to launch new l1s and l2s this is

65. 27:31

    a tough question but uh just popped up in my head yeah I mean it when you when you can rent it I'm I'm sure there's always a world where like generating security outside of it could be cheaper um you know it could be cheaper in the short term but you probably pay in the long term but I think people have the right and will make that tradeoff as a way to go to market um you know it's the

66. 27:57

    question seems obvious know like Bitcoin ethereum like they have like the best security um I mean do have the best security of any chain within the broader crypto ecosystem but one it can it could be too expensive for your needs and two you know Bitcoin ethereum haven't been around a lot it's likely like a crowded market so if you believe that you know you want to carve out your own n Nish um you want to be able to like bootstrap

67. 28:21

    Security in a way that doesn't us depend on these ecosystems um and have a lot more autonomy um and I think that's like another cool part about crypto is that you can ultimately choose to participate in one ecosystem or the other you know um you don't have to be dependent on one and even though Ethan and Bitcoin have proven themselves to be incredibly valuable in that respect we're still seeing massive levels of innovation across the space and you know there

68. 28:48

    could be a world where there are better Solutions but I think it's a trade-off that the founders Builders and users will will have to make yeah I'll go a bit deeper into Trin abstraction obviously we mentioned about Trin abstraction from near side but do you guys have a mental model of how this looks like broad like a broader image and then like what does it enable like what are the apps that we will see that we weren't able to see before so I'm a I'm like a defin nerd so

69. 29:18

    pretty much most of the things that make a lot of sense to me or are most exciting to me are defi applications um I think one thing that's going to be super exciting is this idea of cross margin um you know cross margin exists across the trade five space you know and everyone kind of operates within within that world where you know as a quick definition even if I have assets on one

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    venue or within one custody provider I can kind of access the value or leverage the value in that across other ecosystems and that doesn't seem to um that doesn't exist within crypto for a number of reasons you know just looking at the lending world everything has to be over collateralized and has to be collateralized at that venue you know collateral that I might have on a I can't necessarily use that on GMX hyper

71. 30:06

    liquid um at if I have an asset that I want uh to trade against on ethereum mainnet I can't use that Capital to trade on salana so I think being able to do cross margin across chains I think is going to be huge right now and that will help address a lot of the financial fragmentation that I was talking about earlier you know whether it being able to provide liquidity on like a trading Marketplace across multiple venues multiple chains uh being able to lend across multiple chains being able to

72. 30:39

    borrow across your assets that you have regardless of the chain of origin from the borrower or the lending side um is something that I'm EXT incredibly excited about um and yeah I think D def5 is where a lot of my head is at I think that is probably the biggest the biggest thing that I'm excited for that I I think chain abstraction can can enable in terms of defi like um what are the what are The Primitives you're excited about I mean if you're studying

73. 31:08

    most like Athena came along you know couple that are like super super exciting like what are the what are the ones that are like wow this is this is something that's going to blow up in the next like three to six months yeah um so I think stable coins will always continue to be one of the biggest parts of crypto um and and you know we're seeing inflows increase again over over the last few months and especially on

74. 31:32

    the decentralized stable side um it you know obviously made it a bit um a big Landing uh this year and I think their idea of being able to have this native Yi currency funded by the basis trade on Central exchanges is quite interesting um and how they've been able to connect all of that and ensure security crosses it but ultimately you know it's it's one example of yield being generated and I think if you look at more mature protocols on the stable coin side like makeer down and fra uh you have to

75. 32:03

    You'll ultimately realize that you can't have most of the backing or most of the yield being generated within this ecosystem coming from one opportunity and having that concentration risk um and we'll likely see continuously more deployments um across meeral fracks or other stable coins being creative in one in terms of how are they managing their collateral um to ensure solvency um two

76. 32:26

    how are they UD generating yield without taking on too much risk and then three how can they ensure their table coin gets integrated across the defi ecosystem right um when you look at a stable coin it should hold that value that's like it's core definition but how is it going to be successful if it can't be used as a medium of transfer um and a medium of account across the defi ecosystem you know you should be able to

77. 32:50

    go out and um be able to lend against it provide liquidity trade against this asset take advantage of opportunities across the def ecosystem sust stable coins I think will continue to be interesting um similar to kind of operating in the same space as chain abstraction I think the world of intense is super fascinating um where you have this offchain and onchain component to help match liquidity as a solution to Bridges if individual solvers can help

78. 33:22

    match orders in a way that is much better than the fragmented liquidity that exists on chain that is ultimately better for the user obviously there are trade-offs with some components of it being offchain and you you look at like some major players in the intense space like Unis swap X where um majority of the solvers or the people that are filling these orders um come from you know two three four different firms so you see concentration risk and sight

79. 33:48

    lack of decentralization there but I think that's just evident of the problems that have been created by a number of these chains venues and fragmentation that exists um within the liquidity across these things so I'm super excited about intense um to see how they play out there are a lot of players that are focusing on Cross Shain versus cross asset within evm ecosystem outside the evm ecosystem and how that

80. 34:11

    ties into uh the world of muv but that's another thing that we can touch upon later um so yeah intense I'm super interested in and a third thing I'm fascinated about is kind of like Bitcoin Defi and seeing what can be built there you know at the beginning of last year year we saw um ordinals and now we're seeing like significant pickup on the ruin side and people who would originally you know just hold Bitcoin not do anything on that side while they're active on ethereum salana Cosmos near um actually moving assets back over

81. 34:43

    to the Bitcoin side and people willing to build in that space a lot of what uh we've been seeing seems to be finding more decentralized ways to to wrap Bitcoin um compared to wbtc but those assets still exist within the ethereum def EOS system or the near defi ecos system or the salon defi ecosystem but I'm more excited to see you know what sort of def5 Protocols are being built directly on bitcoin you know are you able to actually uh launch lending contracts or built like a native

82. 35:16

    like BTC back stable coin you know what would the the maker of Bitcoin look like um so keep getting close eye on that so those are three areas um anothera that I I I'm also interested in is like this idea of real world assets um you know it's it's kind of a confusing thing to call like real world assets like as if like nothing none of the stuff that we're doing is necessarily real um and I

83. 35:41

    think that becomes increasingly important to help the the strength and stability of defi markets and I think we'll see an interesting Dynamic play out with capital and how it moves on chain with rwas right I think we will probably not see a lot of people talk about rwas or as much Capital flowing into rwas during bull markets because the native onchain opportunities for defi are likely way more attractive um but then we'll see the exact opposite of

84. 36:12

    that as crypto enters bare markets but we'll the important part is as they move from Crypt native opportunities to onchain RW opportunities the big difference is that Capital still stays on chain there are large swats of people um around the world that you know just because there aren't opportunities to farm or make money or earn yield on chain doesn't mean they're going to pull their Capital off chain there are many

85. 36:37

    reasons that they may need to keep that capital on chain um in a way that they can't access traditional Financial Services or you know they're are Dow treasury that's expected to keep their capital on chain uh so as the amount of capital on chain increases we'll likely see less outflows during bare markets as rwas are like a safe haven for that Capital um when when these opportunities

86. 37:00

    disappear enough what we call them real waffle assets love it um it's great St thanks for that it's a lot of uh we haven't had anybody that's like got into defi as much as you did so that's that's quite nice to hear um one like sort of last question before we like wrap everything up um one of the things I got to know you guys I mean uh disclaimer where from Electric port for a company but um it was the sort of the the capital like the developer report

87. 37:33

    that uh you guys release every end of the year I think um we do I think we just did our our halfe update so definitely check that out too yeah awesome yeah so um how does this like how does this chain abstracted World impact developers I mean have you guys started to see any impacts of that or like uh do you think this going to be a a difference in how developers see uh blockchains in the future

88. 37:58

    yeah absolutely I think we're still quite early in this world of chain abstraction um I think for a lot of the newer developers they're like picking specific ecosystems and that already have significant developer tooling I think that like that developer experience is probably like a big factor into that and ecosystems like it like that have been around for a while that have that developer experience will

89. 38:21

    continue to attract uh a lot more of those developers um I think we'll be a few years before or like maybe in in this cycle we'll start seeing developers out of the box take advantage of chain abstraction uh chain abstraction type software whether it be on the ethereum side or using things um like ion layer or near chain abstraction efforts um from the get-go right now it seems to be

90. 38:46

    they're going to call go out and build out their core protocol and they'll look towards adding some sort of shade of exraction I think the main strategy right now is to just individually deploy uh different instances of the protocol on different chains based on where the capital is where the activity is um you you saw a lot of protocols that originally launched it launched on arbitrum looking to launch on other other ecosystems some that you know have

91. 39:10

    been launching on blast recently that are evaluating how to explore and expand across just the blast ecosystem I think that another reason that it will take a while for chain abstraction to really Ki off on the developer side is going back to to the point of community that we talked about if you have something that out of the box is like fully chain abstracted you know that that actually

92. 39:34

    is pretty cool if you're able to to pull that off but that means at some point you are kind of a part of every Community but not like a major part of a single community and I think that will make you lose out versus a competitor that is willing to commit to a single ecosystem and rally around that um and actually participate work with other protocols from the ecosystem work with the l the L the parent chain they're part of so I'm

93. 40:00

    really curious to see how that Dynamic plays out that even if the tools are objectively better and allow you to get your protocol in front of more users more faces um other protocols if you don't have that good Community or identity to help you push forward then you know those chain of traction efforts may may not be worthwhile so I'm curious to see how people will kind of make

94. 40:24

    those decisions how protocols will make those decisions and how the market will will play out in respect to that yeah Fair um yeah so I guess like it's quite interesting in a sense that we're we're involving right so we're seeing like bunch of blockchains so as you said some people are deploying like single instances and then they can connect it with like obviously like nuffle using or like some other solution that they can they can think of um what's the advice like if if if there's

95. 40:56

    an Entre n comes in and watches this like what's the advice you you give people uh going into the end of 2024 and going in 2025 I would say like just don't be afraid to jump in and don't be afraid to you know ask questions out in the open whether it be in twist in Twitter Discord whatever community that you first come across um you know people and like like be willing to like jump into

96. 41:27

    the community like head first um and don't be afraid to ask stupid questions and I think another thing is also to remain open-minded um things in crypto change so quickly and you know some people say it's a good thing some people say it's a bad thing but that's just the nature of the ecosystem that we operate in and I think if you don't stay open-minded you're likely to like miss

97. 41:51

    out on the continuous ways of innovation you know we saw all the the strong only BTC people like not be interested in ethereum or salana or near or any of these ecosystems even though there's like really cool stuff being built out here and even now you're seeing some of this happen with the ethereum folks who believe you know ethereum is the end all the answer to everything that crypto will ever need in the future and aren't

98. 42:16

    open to like what's happening on the near side or the cosmos side or the salana side and I think the willingness to be open-minded and consider all options once again tying back to the point where there is no right answer you know you it seems like right now like Bitcoin and ether is the the only thing that will ever exist but obviously that's not true there are is a significant amount of money in a lot of these other ecosystems a number of developers that want to build in these

99. 42:40

    ecosystems versus Bitcoin and ethereum and if anything we're going to continue to see more of that so just be willing to jump in uh be willing to stay open-minded you know nothing wrong having strong opinions um you know that helps you guide your way but don't be afraid to like change your opinion or be open to new things awesome well thanks for being part of the podcast s um course know

100. 43:03

     each other so that's kind of bit a B of A conversational as I as I wanted to do which which I think kind of worked out well um thanks thanks for joining and uh hope to see another another electric member pretty soon as well I'm pretty sure that will happen when we get to like episode 50 or something this episode this is episode 13 uh so that's slowly stly yeah yeah and we had obviously some outages like the the the crowd Crow strike thing but it's fine um but cool thanks thanks for being

101. 43:36

     part of it thanks for having me Allon have a great weekend peace