Zaki Manian Value Accrual, Chain Abstraction, Business Models, and a Karate DAO

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:00

   Nothing we say here is investment advice, legal advice, life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with. See chain abstract A.com for more information. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Chain Abstracted, a podcast, brought to you from near. But it's all about everything in Web3.

2. 0:16

   I'm good to see you, man. Let's see as well. How you doing? Doing well, man. I'm in Mexico City. Just, on work, so this episode was our episode three. We're going. We're journey, man. Yeah. Zach is an interesting person to have in the podcast.

3. 0:30

   He's one of these folks that, you know, can also talk about cosmos origins, but also can relate to Ethereum and other like even Solana. Right. So it's it's an it's an amazing person to have in the podcast to talk about all the, all the technology that chain abstraction brings.

4. 0:52

   things that, like a karate dao, you know? And then he gave some founder info, which I think, like, I was really excited to talk to about that because he's done so much in this space for so long. So anyone listening to this who's a founder or was think about being a founder. It's like if you're of some great knowledge towards the end of the pod about that.

5. 1:06

   And I thought that was really nice, sort of like where their focus could be and where there's some like good opportunities that are maybe overlooked in Web3. And then I thought you and him brought up a part, that dude, I thought that where does the value go? Yeah, that was an interesting one. like, the composition of Super Ops is definitely interesting, right?

6. 1:22

   If you think about it, a super app from from from web2. Like, if you think about, you know, all those in Alibaba, all those in Asia, all the ones in Middle East, like, how do we think about that concept in crypto is pretty interesting.

7. 1:36

   and I think he break that. He broke that down pretty nicely. idea of Web3 being super decentralized is what I like about it. I don't know if I'm super pro, super app, but Well it's it's open, right? I mean, if you think about it, it's an open layer. So you can you can build your own mini super if you really want to.

8. 1:51

   That's what like if you think about apps being just every every country has its own app. Super app is basically almost like liquidity aggregation across different nation states, right? I mean, that's that's what the idea is, but instead it's permissionless, where you can build it yourself, not you have to ask the government to, to to give that for you.

9. 2:14

   Oh good point dude. I never thought about it as like, liquidity aggregation. You just sort of. It's like, kind of organizing things neatly for free users, right? So they don't have to, like, worry about all this stuff. But then with the tech, it's not a mode. It's going to be all about brand and community, right?

10. 2:29

    Well, that's why I'm excited about telegram in general. hi. My name is Ducky Mannion. I have been on, I've been working in cryptocurrency since 2013. big contributor to cosmos, co-founder of a DeFi protocol called Familiar Finance, which is an example of chain abstraction.

11. 2:56

    Me and my Governor Christie, conceived of it as a chance action app from the beginning. and we also, and then I've been working on this chain abstraction concept with a bunch of people. I've been working on it with NEAR, I've been working on it with polygon. I've been working on it with Guericke. I've been working on with frontier. it's a group effort.

12. 3:16

    just talk to people. last week in Dubai. you know, everyone is. This is a big, industry effort. The why why why why why I started working with interoperability protocols, for a long time because I thought, you know, I was always skeptical to say that there's going to be one blockchain.

13. 3:36

    now we have blockchains. They do interoperate. it's pretty great. it's pretty cool. You know, moving funds from, Solana to to an Ethereum L2 to a cosmos chain. if you know the right things, if you're like me, basically, and you have a lot of contacts and you know, all the little routes, you know, which websites to use and which wallets and everything, it actually can be pretty great. But that's not something that's approachable to the average user.

14. 4:07

    The average user is like, oh, I want to buy an NFT on this change. Now I have to get all of this, like sort of contextual knowledge. I am here in the blockchain and I need to go there. And can you imagine if the web works that way? Right? Right.

15. 4:26

    No. Like I [email protected] and I want to use ChatGPT. And now I have to like travel step by step through a series of tubes to get there. Right? Insane. and so the concept of chain abstraction is we have frameworks are building blockchains.

16. 4:45

    They're increasingly scalable. We're fixing a lot of bugs. We have, like security through data availability systems. We have consensus algorithms. You have all these building blocks, but it's all pretty. It's all the usability sucks. And what's the mess?

17. 5:00

    So this chain of structure is kind of catch all term for a bunch of different things that are being built by a bunch of different teams, collectively, that will give app builders the ability to imbue their application with the, set of pieces that, you know, abstracted over eliminate for the user.

18. 5:19

    All of this fine grained, highly contextual money movement and instead you just like, get this experience where it's like, I want to use a blockchain. We're like, great. you know, you have a pool of capital, you have you connect your, your, your bank account, etc. you could connect your crypto exchange account and now you could just use things.

19. 5:38

    That's all. That's that's all we want is just to make it. So if I want to use something I can just use it. Awesome. So that's a great example. And I think you mentioned, Zaki, that you've been working with polygon and no avail. Is trying to do something similar with Nexus.

20. 5:53

    I know that nearest trying to do the similar things. So we have this sort of like this landscape of chain abstraction, right? how does the value accrue happen here? Maybe we can start like, How NEAR does it how available in polygon trying to do a different way.

21. 6:09

    Right? I mean, we know that through, maybe let's break that landscape and then see, you know, how do we understand like if I'm a user or if I'm a, let's say, somebody that once unsend a space, how do I understand value across here?

22. 6:23

    All right. Let's talk about it first, in terms of how we've understood maybe value accrual in the past. I guess I, you know, I've been in Boston a decade and I've seen a lot of movement in different ideas of, of of where value accrual will will you know, where will value accrual happen.

23. 6:43

    Why will something be valuable, etc.. So, you know, the the initial concept is, you know, initially everyone thought everything would be on Bitcoin, it's L2 etc.. That was the sort of, of meta thesis. and, you know, you saw early versions of roll ups and everything, Lightning Network, all the stuff.

24. 7:04

    But people at the time couldn't really build what they want. It's been interesting a bunch of interesting technologies have happened on Bitcoin. Now there's a whole new sort of resurgence in Bitcoin. but for a while. But then Ethereum came out during with smart contracts. and what did people see. People saw. Okay. So there's going to be chain.

25. 7:22

    It's going to have a it's going to have smart contracts on it. and then smart contracts are going to enable all kinds of novel and interesting forms of coordination mechanisms that are really cool on this, like shared computer.

26. 7:35

    And then everyone was like, okay, that's cool. So now Ethereum is the capital asset, and the gas asset of Eath is the asset. And now the value will accrue to that asset. And that was that was like sort of 2016. So then 2017 everyone was like well okay I'm going to make my own Ethereum right. Like you know there's an endless and but there like Ethereum got really expensive.

27. 8:01

    so people like Ethereum but more scalable. And so then everyone was like, okay, so then my asset, my soul, my near my and number of other things, right is, you know, my docs etc. will all be the the gas asset in the capital outside of some new environment where there's going to be set up smart contracts and application, a set of smart contracts and then applications that talk to those smart contracts.

28. 8:25

    Okay. So, you know, and then to then you get to the L1 rotation. Right. And we've mostly been seeing versions of the L1 rotation. Now we have the eat L2 rotation. but you could argue that's not all that different. But then if you look at like what do you actually do on the applications.

29. 8:45

    Right. Like what are actually people like I mean we're actually still in a pretty primitive time in the applications. We're in such a primitive time that like automating what is pumped out fun, but automating deploying the contract.

30. 9:00

    Create a new coin, creating that coin, doing a liquidity bootstrapping pool and then creating a Dex pool and like making that like a 0.1, you know, basically a one click interface is some sort of like gigantic UX transformation that is like changed our, you know, it's like it has been like the meta for this entire industry and being able to do it on on two different blockchains.

31. 9:25

    All of that is a little bit disappointing, frankly. So what is the idea of, of of chain abstraction? Idea of transaction is what we want people to be able to do that we want people to to do that and more complicated things. we want people to trade in and out of those coins. We want people to be able to see liquidity, you know, bootstrap rules.

32. 9:48

    But, you know, when you when somebody like, even pump out fun, right, like they have soul and eat and so they have like two different wallet ecosystems, two different block explorer ecosystems to two different everything. Just within one platform.

33. 10:06

    and if you want to trade a coin on base and you have a bunch of you've been trading on Solana, now you have to know how to move your funds from Solana to base. And that's insane. So and then like, why value. So where does this imply value accrual.

34. 10:25

    I guess my long term hypothesis about crypto has always been the real place where value accrues is the application layer, and then everything else is about proximity to that. What is the central to the user's order flow. So it's very valuable. It's like it's it's a valuable piece of information.

35. 10:48

    If someone is out there and says, I want to short something, want something, buy something, sell something, it actually is. That's like a new sort of unit, a packet of information that's been introduced into this coordination mechanism, that is blockchains.

36. 11:04

    And what we're trying to do with the chain abstraction layer and why we think it can accrue quite a lot of value, is we want that to be the to the we want the, the, the, the first piece of infrastructure that that idea touches is to be one of the systems of one of the chain abstraction infrastructure layers, and then those infrastructure layers now go out and, and, you know, do the swaps create the the orders, do all of these things and make sure it gets executed on behalf of the user.

37. 11:41

    And even if the funds are residing on various execution layers or the funds are on the funds are on base, or you can imagine just taking pumped up fund as currently exists and sticking chain abstraction between the wallet and the user.

38. 11:57

    And what it would do is it would allow people to do things like, hey, I have, a position on, you know, a Solana meme coin. And I would like to exchange that position for position on, you know, on a base meme coin. And instead of ever having to know about a bridge or anything, you just simply say to the chain abstraction layer, hey, I'm going to trade this.

39. 12:20

    And there's a variety of ways to then get value at the chain abstraction layer. Like you could have a market maker potentially execute that order flow. You could execute trades on a variety of dexs and bridges. you could charge fees for all of that.

40. 12:34

    but you can basically charge a small fee for executing this on behalf of these. So I guess. Let me. Let me wrap this up. So we have the the the simple app should. Look, when you come to that pump, that fun user should say, hey, I'm going to buy this meme coin. And just like the rest of it is just taken by the application itself.

41. 12:55

    And wouldn't that be, while there's two questions there, wouldn't that be expensive as it's sense currently to be able to move all this stuff at the back? Second, how much like, how do you envision this sort of maybe today? Like it will take a lot of time, but in the future we should want to do this for like 2 or 3 seconds.

42. 13:12

    And first and third question is like, if we're doing this, application accrues value by probably charging some sort of like like visa network or something gets small cut. That probably gets the revenue. and does that mean it's going to be a play off, like almost like a super app at the end of the day, right, where you just come in detail to do everything, and then that's where the value happens.

43. 13:34

    Like, like all the models we see in Asia, right.

44. 14:55

    that's your, your conceptual framework. So what do you like, what does the infrastructure have to be able to do for that? So the first thing it could do is it would, it could just it could do what. You know, what the what the what the kids are calling intents these days.

45. 15:12

    It could first so you could sign something that basically says, hey, like, you know, coordinate settlement for me. If someone is willing to give me d gen on base, I am willing to like trade it. At least you know this much way for this which d gen somebody will set. So in order to do that, you need some place where that can be executed.

46. 15:38

    you need smart contracts on the Solana chain and on the base chain that can handle the escrow. and you can, you can, and that. But so, but that way. So that's what that's what the kids call intense these days. and and cross-chain intents.

47. 15:55

    And then you need to be able to oracle to the escrow the like the fact that like the width has entered escrow and the, d gen has entered escrow and there's all events need to be Oracle, somewhere, maybe cross-chain to the contract or to like a third thing, which could be another chain.

48. 16:12

    could be Agora, it could be near, etc.. okay. So that's what the kids call intents. And I don't think intents are the intention, not the be all and end all, chain abstraction. Because in that use case, someone needs to market make for you.

49. 16:24

    right. Like somebody needs to, to go in and, like, have inventory of d gen that they're willing to give to the escrow contract. And, chain abstraction is more general than that. So let's say you, you, you sit there and you put out this order, and it's, you know, you give it, you know, a second or two for someone to come in and market, make it, and the infrastructure sitting there tracking that and it's like, oh, okay.

50. 16:50

    Well, no one came along, right. and you still want to get this done. You were like, I still want to get this done. So now the infrastructure should be able to go out, let's say swap your WIF for Usdc for you. So like make that transaction then, make a CDP transaction, bridge burning Usdc on Solana, minting it on base and then swap.

51. 17:18

    and what you want to be able to do is you you don't want to sign anything else like the the idea of transaction is key is once you signed the hey chain abstraction infrastructure get this done for me that flow. oh. Try it. Try doing it with intents. Give it a timeout. If contents.

52. 17:38

    If the intent can't get it done, then go try and execute it yourself and do that. And then, you know, the worst case scenario is you ended up with Usdc because you know, the price of an. And we've moved and now we can't. So we can't complete the transaction.

53. 17:54

    and then so and the user should basically be like, okay, like I clicked this, I went and I went and I like, you know, check my telegram. And I went and did like, oh, you know, I pay my taxes, I did I paid my credit card bill, I did all this other shit.

54. 18:09

    I come back to my browser window and I should just see like, oh, okay. Either I, you either I have my digital or I've Usdc on base and these were the only outcomes I have to do anything else. and we have little previews of this kind of user experience, and it's kind of awesome right now. you know, there's a thing in cosmos called IBC Dot fund.

55. 18:32

    that is really that is, you know, as a team I work with called Skip built it. and it gives you this like one signature experience that is really cool. And it's like it's entirely a different user experience, even if it takes like, even if you're routing through like Etherium main net and it takes, you know, 20 minutes for finality, the experience of I don't have to sign again is pretty game-changing.

56. 19:18

    Whatever nonsense our industry has decided to create in the last five minutes. You know it's there, right? chain abstraction is just, so people can use layer Yeah, and I'll build on that. It's more like operations research from, like, all the back on. Right? It's just roots and maybe, like, how do we think about that? Right? I guess the first one is ops research.

57. 19:53

    Second is more like, hey, at all labs are, like, done. You know, they're not probabilistic anymore, which they are like, you know, you don't want to trust in the labs, do these things, but, just want to give that sort of, idea there as well.

58. 20:31

    Yeah. Yeah. So there's. There's another idea here, which is that the the value doesn't even need. Like, the user doesn't even need to pay a a fee. in the ideal world, because in an ideal world, there may be, like, so, you know, like, well, why don't you pay trading fees on Robinhood, which you don't pay trading using Robinhood because your order flow gets routed, or you're because like, sit also gets to see your order flow.

59. 21:18

    People see the Citadel pays for the for the alpha, for the for the bit, for that data. and that data covers trading fees and like, effectively, you're the product. there can be a world though where it's like, oh, all right. Well, actually, I mean, then this you know, teams like a Noma have been working on stuff like this, which is this idea, like a gnome.

60. 21:43

    the flash bots team with Schwab have been working ideas like this where it's like, oh, we don't even reveal to the chain abstraction layer until, like this layer your what? Your order. Will you instead reveal maybe like that, you want to trade this asset, but you don't. We don't give you your price or anything.

61. 22:01

    And then someone says, okay, I'm going to like bid to be able to like execute against that order. And I might do that execution in some sort, something like, some sort of private computational infrastructure, where no one can fully see what, like where I don't get to see or instead I get to inject a piece of software or a little bot that gets to see your order and then, you know, execute against it.

62. 22:26

    And in that process, you might get more done than you thought you were going to get. Because I bid, because, like the market maker was in a bidding war with other people who were like, no, I want that. I want to execute against that or, well, I want to bundle it against my like counter flow of orders where up people try trading.

63. 22:45

    Did G10 for with like I could do it, you know and so it's and there's been like an increasing amount of research from people like Turon from Gauntlett, talking about how that world might be engineer. I mean, that makes sense to me. the other thing. Maybe we should. We should probably think about.

64. 23:11

    In that world, like, I'm still going to the super app example. I don't know why. It's just because the entry, the gateway. Right. So. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Think for.

65. 25:36

    I see. I see. So it looks more like this, right? Let's just change analogy. The app is asking for a service like I want routing. I want bridging, I want this. And in this sort of chain abstraction layer that Jared mentioned the best service because it's decentralized, I can plug it in and I can provide the best service in that sort of, the box.

66. 26:30

    Right? I mean, that's and that doesn't take the example of like grab, for example, that one service is given by grab, and it's probably not the best experience that would be given. So is that the future that we're looking for in that cat set in that sense? Okay. Okay.

67. 26:52

    Okay. Okay.

68. 28:30

    I got to say that, like, I, I, I think business model innovation is, is is very, very early. I think we have literally we like, like discovery is very early. Like what user how like what user interactions people enjoy. I think like, like a lot of the meta of the last, I don't know, ten years basically has been, a lot of the meta of the last ten years is been, has been, you know, exchange listing as product.

69. 29:17

    Right? Like your business model is. I made a token, there's some hype, and we got an exchange listing, and I played that game a lot. in my life, in various ways. and while it is certainly a way of funding and building a lot of important technology, it also also feels kind of stupid.

70. 29:46

    I recently launched an NFT collection for the first time. and that was. That's been an interesting experience. as, you know, thing as, like, a completely different business model. and, and community formation model and everything.

71. 30:03

    And so I'm playing with that. I think, you know, I think what, Armani is doing where he's like, we have a wallet and we have an exchange, and we have an NFT collection on Solana is way more of the future. I mean, I don't, you know, I joke that like a decade of work in cryptography and distributed systems and building novel things and doing, you know, go to markets, a very complex analogy.

72. 33:28

    No, that's a great example. I mean, it's not even that. There's, like. I love these sort of. Probably you can use karate as, like, betting and other stuff. And I think that that's that model is pretty interesting. This is. Yeah.

73. 35:58

    Yeah. And increases the temp. Right. I mean, karate guys that we're like not even looking to crypto now end up like oh I have this token now I can do other stuff with it. So, but. Yeah. So another question there like, is the is the founder of. Let's forget about all these like L1, L2 is that like everybody wants to try to do.

74. 36:41

    Right. And let's go to that. Right. Like how do we find those boundaries. Right. I mean like how does this guy ended up, hey, like tokens are a great way to kind of view this experience. Like is that is that what we should look for?

75. 36:53

    I mean as is people that would look like chain abstraction experiments. Right. Is that that's the question. so. well, I think there's two ways of doing it. One is you can have people who are in crypto and have been who are they want to experiment with new things.

76. 37:12

    You want to try new things. So like, I did this NFT collection, right. And the concept of this NFT collection was, I mean, on it. I would have gone harder on the chain abstraction if there was more technology that was out of the box. But like, you know, this is like a part time project, right? I lost this watch.

77. 37:25

    This NFT collection got lost in slots. Right? and it's kind of become a big thing. and, you know, I had this idea last year. so let's see, it doesn't really have, like, a native NFT ecosystem yet. and I'm like, okay, so like, what pieces of chain abstraction can I put together?

78. 37:47

    Because I think for the culture. So let's say you need something like a bit of contributed, but last year since 2019. So like I was like this needs to happen. And so I put all these pieces together and so like what are the pieces I got tier as a mid currency on another cosmos chain.

79. 38:04

    I then got a white. I was able to like white list tier stakers on that other cosmos chain and like yeah okay like again, if you're not me, not sure that you could have made this happen. Like, you know, I was like writing scripts at like two it at like 2:00 am in the morning, like four hours before the mint to like, you know, make Merkle trees and stuff like that, but like, you know, it was but the result was cool. The result was cool.

80. 38:30

    It's like, you know, there's this there's this feeling that like, oh, there's this outpost of Celestia now on this other cosmos chain and, you know, and people love it. and so I don't know that we, you have to say, oh, we need a completely new population of founders.

81. 38:47

    I think we just need founders to sort of experiment with thinking differently. I also think that, like, you know, our friend to, who's who founded 3D combat, he liked the sport. He liked the idea. He had been, like, crypto adjacent for a long time. He owns a lot of Bitcoin. but, like, never built anything in crypto.

82. 39:12

    but he'd been like, you know, observing all of these different ideas have been very involved is very high context and could make this and yeah, it's the stuff is great. so I think, like I said, I am. I'm a bullish applications. I'm bored of El ones.

83. 39:37

    I want, I want, I want to make stuff that's fun and, and like make people and feel excited and that people actually use, and like and like oh. And like, yeah. I mean, and then, like going back to the history of, of Somalia. Somalia is a cosmos chain in some senses.

84. 39:59

    If the cosmos chain runs a bunch of stuff that most of our users never seen, and all of our users interact with the system that exists on that theory, or base. And, you know, Christie was the one who came up with this idea. She was like, you know, this is the user experience because nobody wants to, like, install any wallet.

85. 40:15

    they just want to they just want to push a button and it makes money make it happen. Right. And so we, we we, we put, you know, and so we built that with the technology that was available in 2021. and it was pretty hard. but you know, it works.

86. 40:30

    and now, you know, things like, you know, mirrors, sort of, you know, wallet built into the system existed if, you know, asynchronous contracts that existed, all this stuff that we built would be way easier. instead of, like, all of these, like, complicated can tune state machines.

87. 41:00

    100%. Let's go there. I think, Zaki, and doing a bunch of stuff for us. So love to love to learn more about that. So Jared has good questions there. in on you. What is maybe one area in Web3 you think a founders could be looking at that's maybe a little overlooked right now that you think is like, that's where products can be made and users will use them.

88. 41:28

    you know, so I, I've spent the last decade mostly in doing sort of like giga brain, right? Curve. Visionary shit. that that has been that has been that has been, you know, and this isn't, you know, I'm not necessarily saying to say that to toot my own horn, but and then I looked at all of this stuff and like, you know, and then for a long time, there were all the people who were just, like, pumping tokens and having expensive parties and, you know, all that stuff.

89. 42:02

    And that was like the scammy, sleazy side of crypto, right? And like, I was over in my ivory tower, building intellectually pure things. I would say, I think the things that excite me the most are when people are willing to combine these two like to live on both sides.

90. 42:22

    and I would encourage more founders to try and think of ways of living on both sides. And I, you know, the the slots thing is, maybe my it's definitely my first successful foray into living on both sides. and it's super, super fun.

91. 42:39

    like the first vision is give something that to people that some that like feels on. Right. Like and like I think this is the thing that is that is is possible today. Like you can combine you can simultaneously take something that is entirely visionary, entirely get your brain, you know, list of, and Ishmael and Jon and Nick from Celestia are just absolutely visionary founders. It has been a privilege to work with them.

92. 43:10

    The ideas are so big, but then also you can layer on top of it a bunch of cute, oh cute cool sloths and like, numbers go up and and like and like a fun community experience and like, you know, a discord chat where, you know, where where everyone is just kind of says lazy morning every few hours.

93. 43:33

    and like, people like that too. And like, I think that was the thing that like, we we've never been able to sustainably have, in, in crypto for a long time. I, a lot of it was because the tech was inadequate. Right. Like, we like it just stuff ran out of steam. You couldn't continue to build. You would.

94. 43:51

    You'd run into these weird technical roadblocks. But it's kind of better now. and so I would say, you know, if you're if you're if you're, if you're really good at building communities and coming up with interesting user interactions and stuff that builds want go hang out with the Giga Brain founders.

95. 44:10

    And if you're a Giga Brain founder, go be thinking about like, how do you where and stuff. That's just fun. Dude, I that's a really good answer, man. And, like, I think in a decentralized world and centralized worlds, you have giant Mega Corp's worth trillions of dollars that can do all the ad budget and spread of the world.

96. 44:29

    All the other things in a decentralized world. It'll be, I think, much more about, like, this kind of karate example where it's like it's like smaller but much more ecosystems that all have their own individual community. You know, it's not going to be, you know, 100 billionaires. It's going to be tens of thousands of people who are millionaires. Right?

97. 44:50

    That's what I hope. That's my hope for the decentralized world. Yeah. Ilya learned that quite nicely over the time, too. Okay. It was, like, very good gut brain stuff. And then he started to be more like of those black dragons and all that stuff. So I think he's been. He's been doing really well there. yeah. Thanks.

98. 45:05

    Thanks for that insight. I think that really enjoyed that. we're running sort of short almost there. So any anything that comes Jared. Maybe the last, thoughts from Zach in terms of how do we, how do we think about chain abstraction or if somebody watch this, podcast, where should they, like, go into this sort of this rabbit hole?

99. 45:26

    because we like rabbit holes in crypto for some reason. as far as, like, I don't, you know, this is a good question. We probably need to get get our act together, and, I know so NEAR has. So basically right now, like, NEAR has a chain obstruction.

100. 45:46

     page, you guys are gonna have to look at the URL. I don't have to. Someone ahead. Agora has their orchestration page. We have this thing called the cake framework that we've been discussing. It's still a little bit pulling the pieces together into, like, a, a strong industry community, but it's, it's it is a good time.

101. 46:06

     the idea of, you know, if you I'm a user of blockchain, I shouldn't have to know what chain. Like, if we if you know what chain abstraction is everything. It's fail. Like we defeat. We completely failed at this. Like, this isn't the next. you should just be like, no. Like, suddenly.

102. 46:22

     Oh, there's a bunch of apps that got easier to use and, like, made, and there was like some value accrual to like build and NEAR and other, you know, other tokens that are providing the infrastructure. and like, you know, that might be good, but it's like, you know, it's it's just like, you know, if, if, you know, if you were using ChatGPT, you don't need to know what Nvidia is.

103. 46:45

     You just know it has something to do with using. Yeah. Thanks. You. It's been. It's been great for us to discuss, chain abstraction and even related to karate. So that was. That was kind of fun. Was, definitely want to see that.

104. 46:59

     More examples of, like, I don't know, maybe it's boxing or these, these stuff coming up, like, we'd love to love to see that and love to participate in when we go to cool places like Dubai when there's a flood. So it's it's started water flood ended with that karate. So that was kind of nice.