Appchain Economic Designs - Panel - Near Day at ETHDenver 2023

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1. 0:00

   good morning guys thank you so much for coming out to near day we've got an interesting panel for you here today talking about near being present multi-chain we can't just talk about it we have to talk about it and talk to other chains about it so please welcome our panelists from calimero from Dao Dao from Aurora and from ref Finance so we have an interesting little setup here of chairs I'm kind of more used to one chair per panelist but interestingly enough

2. 0:34

   sitting next to me we have Dao Dao and then we have the near ecosystem on the couch so I'm kind of glad I have my own chair kind of fun to start the morning off let's ask a question to refinance and see how refinance might see some of the stuff that we want to discuss right app chain economics in general this is an advanced panel so we're not going to spend all the time talking about what app chains are you should know that an app chain is

3. 0:58

   an application specific blockchain right so knowing that there are needs for near tokens there are needs for stable coins you know there's needs for governance outside of near connected to near for ref finance that means interoperability with Aurora it means interoperability with octopus to some degree you can call it interop but it's really just us using the contracts so from a ref Finance

4. 1:21

   perspective when you look at new liquidity coming in from other chains and from places like Aurora what are the first things that you think about when we have to integrate these other economies and make them make sense on a non-modolithic L1 yeah so quick uh background about refinance refers the leading ducks on here and I'm Ray researcher on refinance so replying to the questions um I think how action can come into play especially in Defy is kind of the

5. 1:55

   problem that I've changed solved right which is scalability after all so just like how dydx is kind of recently announcing moving on to Cosmo with app chain idea I think similarly you know with the additional scalability and you know gas reduce and gas speed it really helps kind of increase liquidity and volume being traded on D5 which is one barrier that differentiates between D5

6. 2:18

   and C5 and especially you know when it comes to bridging I think this is one very interesting mechanism that to be considered where you know there's all these different chains and all these different tokens how do you really Bridge from one token to another and across chains and I think this is a really good approach using App chain barely said so there's a lot of different implications from managing

7. 2:42

   that Capital to being responsible for allowing that Capital to be present in the exchange you know on a decks we don't necessarily permission and allow things but there's still the question of you know who made the decision who's liable who's responsible so relative to that I want to ask Jake from Dow Dow there's a lot of liquidity moving around in Cosmos right now some stuff that we've discussed not relevant to this panel but I'd like to know how

8. 3:07

   you see um something like a non-monolithic L1 decks like ref Finance being integrated potentially with other app chains because when I think about that in the the way that I've experienced it it's it's very small it's in kind of a niche well the interchain is near so um you know there's a thing called IBC her inner blockchain communication protocol and it's pretty sick it's what makes all

9. 3:32

   these app chains work that's why you can have a decks like osmosis and anyone can launch a new app chain and they can permission permissionlessly create a bridge to osmosis with with IBC and you can do more things over your IBC like control accounts over IBC so like with doubt out interchained out to Lane you can actually have accounts on all these different blockchains and do anything an

10. 3:55

    account would do on that chain like cross chain over IBC so a dow on Juno Network for example can control an account on osmosis and LPS tokens so I think there's a huge opportunity and one thing that I'm really excited about is to bring near in the great technology at near and the great projects at near to the inner chain and then that also means it brings the inner chain to near and then osmosis Juno datao token like

11. 4:18

    stargaze like all these different app chain projects can be listed on your D5 products and I think it's really interesting to ask Boris from Aurora about this because on Aurora you guys are effectively the first non-nir platform to have integrated directly with ref so I think it's interesting that Aurora relaunched its validator recently and some things have become more stable about the bridge back to ethereum I

12. 4:43

    wonder if you have any comments on this or you have any thought how this might affect future Dynamics because I can see how Aurora kind of has Prime placement you know the liquidity for projects on Aurora is present effectively before these other app chains so as a large entity adjacent to ref adjacent to dex's on near how do you see other you know smaller applications that are their own

13. 5:05

    infrastructure competing for Capital because that's the first point that we talk about in you know security right for interchange security well I think as we open more the the we give more city of New tools that allow more and more event compatible topchams try to bring a liquidity into into Aurora an engineer I think we can you know we're it's part of what we're trying to achieve it's it's still in in the works but I think with a lot of Bloods and all other you know new layers of work in it

14. 5:41

    I think it will happen right I think um there might be some Challenge on you know communication with between application chains but I think we've been working on that I think the the rails are there the low the low gas the fast transactions are there you just need to grow the environment let let know everyone wants to launch their own app chains they can do it they can go through us and yeah I think that's just that we we are we are getting there

15. 6:20

    fairly said so Sandy not to leave you out in the cold I have to ask you also about kalimero because kalimero effectively can be read as app chains of near on near I know that's grossly oversimplifying but bear with my bad analogy from an economic perspective to my understanding calamaro doesn't have as much of an economic need the way some other public app chains might because kalimero uses private right calimero

16. 6:45

    specifically for you know a validator set that is not supposed to be for the public it's not supposed to be permissionless and that's perfectly fine so getting back from that space of permission structures to the permissionless chain permissionless decks what do you think that means for you know the same liquidity that we're all competing for the same Capital attention that we're all competing for where some of those operators just don't compare about the public capital

17. 7:09

    yes so from my perspective um Calimera is a sidechain built on top of near and we are targeting more like web 2.5 use cases like Enterprises OTC trades dark pools um and I I don't think we'd necessarily we are competing uh with the public defy ecosystems but bringing more like new liquidity probably for institutions who didn't invest in crypto before obviously institutions are not adopting blockchains right now because of privacy reasons because of regulatory reasons

18. 7:40

    and we are kind of trying to build a side chain which enables them to do so so in the future we have like you know asset organization new liquidity of like different assets stable coins cbdc's and I think it's just going to expand both our business but also the D5 business in general that's fair that makes a lot of sense so I want to ask further to bounce back from private chains back to Interchange security because Cosmos is doing a bunch of interesting things that are going to become more important to us at near as

19. 8:11

    nep364 gets finalized as some of this other IBC work gets a little bit more structured um I'm really happy to see that some some ics's are sort of misunderstood ICS 10 and 11 is what we've been interfacing with at octopus we're exciting to get that finalized so we can you know help contribute to part of that for the ICS deployment on near but more importantly when I think about the future of near and how it wants to be multi-chained in

20. 8:35

    these Capital relationships with other entities I can think of how on map of zones.com I see liquidity moving between different chains on Cosmos in near we might experience that a little bit differently because a popular Dex is a more popular place for people to go instead of bringing their Capital directly to the application so what do you think the interchange security motivation is for investors because when I want to see multi-chain applications

21. 9:00

    the first thing that people tell me is I don't want to see it I'd rather have one token one place easy mode is what I like I like simple don't think too hard how do you how do you respond to this there's a lot there first of all I cannot wait to see near on the map of zones in the inner chain and see all the interchange liquidity flowing to near it's gonna be sick um I think your question is about like maybe like concentrated liquidity like do you have your protocol in like one place or do you spread it out like as

22. 9:32

    much you can totally left turn and go replicated security if you want I'm leaving you an open field oh yeah replicated security is um mesh security though is really interesting so osmosis and Juno Network are working on mesh security and it's quite similar to eigen layer layer it's like a cross staking protocol um this is something where you could you know near has a incredible High market

23. 9:55

    cap what if you could stake your near on ear get your near rewards and then cross stake it to secure a lot of these app chains on the inner chain and earn those app chain tokens on top of your near staking Rewards um mesh security is something that I would be really happy to talk with anyone in the near realm about because I think it's incredibly awesome you can provide a high level of Economic Security and

24. 10:20

    yet it's built in such a way that it doesn't demand you use the cosmos SDK um and so yeah I'm really really excited for mesh security replicated security meh like whatever heard excellent so um to to that I'll take a left turn and ask Sandy about this because it's a completely inappropriate question for you we just want to ask you in particular um what's what is it called CRS CSR

25. 10:45

    whatever they call it Kento has become popular for this feature near already was giving 30 of you know spend on a transaction back to the author of The the contract I wonder how kalimaro sees this motivation where part of the base layer on near was to pay back the author of a contract but that's not really necessary when you're running your own chain and your economics are kind of segmented from an L1

26. 11:08

    I mean on near I think it's pretty great that we have 30 percent of you know gas fees go to developers because incentivize developers to build good contracts and essentially you know a business model is baked in into the protocol itself so like if your contract is very used you get paid instantly for calimer obviously we are you know a gas free network so like the validators don't have a token uh it's standard like proof of stake or proof of authority

27. 11:34

    network uh depends how you set it up it's customizable but the token is just for consensus it's not for um you know monetary value in my opinion in the future we're going to see more and more networks and more and more app chains who are not secured by monitoring incentive but also from our proof of community incentive or you know legal Frameworks between different companies in Consortium networks or for example Dallas like you can have a multi-stick Dao of five people instead you can write in a private chart of five people having

28. 12:04

    the same voting power and then you can have Smart contracts between them you can you know deployed maybe exchanges between them you can have treasury management private voting and I really see you know that's where the future is going um in my opinion and that's why we kind of I worked it near I joined three years ago I joined as an infrastructure engineer and now we're just building you know infrastructure more for standard

29. 12:26

    businesses on top of near so that's that's how I see it you know so I think there is a different narrative from a Capital Management perspective than most other ecosystems and chains right so Boris at Aurora there's also a pretty different take right like Aurora plus when I first saw that I said oh okay that's great I can onboard people more easily and over time I started to understand better or a cloud and these other you know offerings in these other engagements they're designed to meet the

30. 12:51

    market in a way that the market is sort of more ready for right so that said how do you see capital in Aurora making sense for multi-chain applications for people on near for entities who want to just build on Aurora but also want to be able to you know move their liquidity to other places get functionality from other places well how I see it if we can create all this you know the Aurora plus the cloud all these for example to bring more

31. 13:22

    I mean my my how I see it is we have a set of tools that are said to bring more liquidity I think I think that being an evm compatible it's we create a good environment to this stop change so it is is you know uh attractive to come there are other things like you know meta transaction we can do that construction we can bring the game the The Gamers I think they're we can we can be a good place like to enter to the near ecosystem but beyond that generic receives something we are a

32. 13:57

    place that they can you know have all that we need to bring enough you know their applications I think there's a good good use case for gaming a lot of good cases for D5 so I think it may it will make sense to to come a place that they can get and you can also Bridge ethereum you can Bridge the engineer so I think you know it is we we have the basics and the more than the basics the next level so I think which is a good Placer came they can break the capital and I think it will happen

33. 14:29

    yeah there so I want to Pivot to our youngest panelists Ray and Ray I want to ask you about this because of your experience at ref and what you might uh see in the future because at an entity like osmosis there is much less management required when someone comes up and wants to have a capital engagement I'm not saying that ref is permission I'm saying that somebody is managing contracts somewhere

34. 14:53

    there's always some liability right so to that sense how would you like to see app chains connecting up with nearer because I could see them linking with IBC immediately and looking for liquidity on ref that is a different engagement than they're used to on osmosis so I'd like to know what you see for the future of action economics on near yeah so I think you know let's think back like what is the primary kind of idea behind like a DEX or amm as a

35. 15:18

    whole right it's meant to be a medium of Exchange in the network right so anir we are the kind of token exchange for all sorts of communication via Aurora Juno Network or so on so forth now regarding app train specifically I can kind of pull into two aspects micro and macro when it comes to the micro perspective I think there will be more and more people building on different app chains which then relates to the fact that you know there will be

36. 15:50

    potential tokens which will then connect back to your refinance attacks which allows you to exchange token through app chains I think this is really important for kind of what rev is supposed to do now on a higher level on a macro perspective I think app training is extremely critical important for Mass adoption especially when it comes to gaming like force I mentioned you know

37. 16:14

    you want users web to users to seamlessly use web3 without even knowing it right I think this can be really wildly done by you know for example gaming on app chains for example and this is how you know Mass abduction will come in for blockchains fairly said well I don't think we have too much time left but I don't want to be the the moderator that makes you guys say the thing that we want to say so I want to hear from you all what is the

38. 16:38

    thing that you're excited about I know we all have some different announcements that we're looking at you know in this kind of bear Market everybody makes their announcements around East Denver right so whatever you're looking at next if we could go down the line I think our audience would love to know what's interesting in our world well I'm actually not going to talk about Juno 2.0 I'm going to talk about the things that are relevant to near that I'm excited about so IBC I think

39. 17:02

    IBC can open up a whole world of permissionless like bridging and interchange goodness that would allow dexes like yours to like access more tokens more easily no need to make custom Bridges all the time like everything's standardized um moreover it opens up possibilities for protocols like mesh security I would really love to get near involved with mesh security a real cross ecosystem proof of stake like shared security model I think could be really powerful

40. 17:34

    for decentralization but also great for for token holders especially High market cap chains that can provide a lot of Economic Security and then also provide near stakers with additional rewards like that's pretty exciting so I'm pretty excited I'm just excited about those two things IBC because it's the best best cross-chain communication protocol and mesh security because it's a really interesting emerging shared security protocol for the interchain

41. 18:01

    heard you're up again Ray go for it what are you looking at next what do you think is interesting coming to ref to near crypto in general whatever you have your eyes on yeah so for ref you know we have recently launched uh V2 so kind of basically it's a model known as discretized concentrated liquidity where users can you know provide constantial liquidity in order to place limit orders

42. 18:25

    so the goal of you know attacks or you know ref specifically is to kind of have the best users experience modeling of like a centralized exchange right following what happened last year we can see you know there's a point of failure with centralization so if we can replicate no not even 100 or 80 to 90 of what uh see if I can do then I think we're pretty successful on that point I'll challenge you a little bit on

43. 18:50

    that because my net point to every cab Uber Lyft driver that I've been with since I got here was hey that curly-haired guy we're not associated with him he didn't do this stuff it was on chain data that made it possible to break that problem before it got worse so just to you know because we're not going to talk about it I had to put a little ish on it but we can keep moving Boris I'd love to know what you find interesting at Aurora because I've lost track of some of the

44. 19:13

    offerings y'all have there's a lot coming out please tell us what to look for next at Aurora well I'm personally excited of how we can we will improve user experience by you know using all my very particular investment in the construction part but then is the other replies the clouded things I think this will be allow us to move more the value out of mere speculation so the the apps per se will be able to generate you know more value

45. 19:46

    to investors and stuff more than just no I like the fiber I think we should move money a little more Amplified into the application per set the games and very into the gaming part so um I'm excited about that I think I'm excited to see how we can get developers to improve user experience and how they can make it easier for users to just to do Define another way using a router plus and how other you know more on the business side can use other you know other products like the cloud and stuff

46. 20:19

    like that but I think in general I think we can we will be improving the the user experience and bringing in increasing adoption and moving value out of a little speculation to you know to the apps per se Fair Sunday is there any uh any peas you want to tell us about or anything uh coming from calimero just want to give you your piece to tell us about things two things so I have a presentation in

47. 20:44

    one hour I invite everybody to join and learn more about carimero one sneak peek we are working with Aurora guys to bring evm support uh to kalimero as well and the thing which I'm excited about is a really Enterprise adoption and web two point use cases coming up in the future because my belief is if you don't do that you know blockchain will not survive so if you want to learn more

48. 21:07

    presentation in one hour and see you guys barely said well thank you guys so much for uh coming up we appreciate your time been a pleasure to do it again next year thank you thank you