Whiteboard Series with NEAR | Ep: 22 Ryan King from FOAM Protocol |

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:03

   hey Ron this is Alex from here with me today is Ryan King from foam I will talk about technical details details of the protocol today alright would you like to introduce yourself and give a brief overview sure my name is Ryan I'm a co-founder and CEO foam foam is a protocol for building a consensus driven map of the world so we build a lot of geospatial tools and features for blockchain developers to work on if they

2. 0:28

   want to have a geolocation in their smart contract or way to visualize it and then we use our token to kind of verify and curate this data to make sure it's accurate and can be relied on by smart contracts yeah so how should I start well we can talk about the token carrier industry sure looking good yeah we so the currently what's live for the foam product is called the foam map you

3. 0:54

   can find it at basically map dot foam dot space and this is a live web 3 application you need like meta mask or foam to basically interact with it and the point of this application is to build up a token curated registry of verified points of interest data so currently today points of interest data goes out of style really quickly because the business might have closed or moved

4. 1:17

   and there's a lot of open source mappers with like Open Street Map contributing data but there's no one really checking or verifying that data and so a company has to then do it and then they sell this open source source data so we're trying to involve an incentive mechanism to actually curate the data so that's why it's called a token curated registry so the kind of primitive is called the TCR and the idea is that you have this registry which is a list of things so normally like it would be like top

5. 1:42

   movies and the idea is to get on this list somebody has two staked oaken's for you to get onto the list and so there's all these different parameters around a token curated registry and these kind of parameters are like min deposit so like what would be the minimum amount of tokens you have to stake to add this information to the list and so the reason you have this min deposit is it's like an anti-spam mechanism so you have to have some skin in the game to like

6. 2:06

   add information to the list and it's also so you make sure that information stays up-to-date because if it's out somebody can come and challenge you so in our case we're building a registry of locations so it's about building up a map of things and so the way that it works is if you want to add a point to the map let's say I want to add Times Square of New York City it's similar interface to like a Google Maps or open

7. 2:30

   trip map but as a web 3 application you basically can open it up and you say ok I want to click here on the map and I'm gonna add a point and essentially like a menu card will come up and you essentially fill out the name at the information the phone number the tag and then you decide how many tokens you want a stake and right now the minimum is 50 so let's say you say 50 and so you don't actually spend your tokens or your money

8. 2:51

   it essentially goes into the protocol and it goes into the map and your tokens are kind of backing the truthfulness of this data so people can say oh there's like tokens behind this and it looks pretty accurate so I'm going to be able to trust this data yeah so foam tokens are used to contribute work to the network so if you want to be a cartographer you're basically staking tokens and they're very slowly getting taken off the market and actually

9. 3:15

   backing the data set of the map but we've seen about 5% of the points so far I've actually been challenged so this is another feature of the token curated registry is that you have the contributors which we call cartographers but then you also have the curators and curators or people who actually come and investigate this information and see if it's okay or not so let's say here we added Times Square and let's say we

10. 3:39

    named it Times Square with a square so obviously that's incorrect you don't call it Times Square with a square you spell out the name Times Square and so that's the block is mined it's added to the map as a pending point and it's a theorem it's on the live aetherium and so the metadata is stored in ipfs and there's like some hash and then basically it's in the registry so they'll be like a listing hash for it in the phone registry and it's on aetherium and so if this point you know three days

11. 4:11

    go by then the point will turn green which means nobody found a problem but at anytime somebody can come and initiate a challenge against any point on the map so let's say here somebody sees that this is spelt incorrectly because it using a instead of the name they basically come to this point and they hit that they want to challenge it and they put some sort of reason and they also have to

12. 4:35

    stay tokens so now they also take 50 tokens and so now what that gives you is you have this kind of reward pool of 100 tokens that are now locked up and then it's open for all other cartographers and curators to kind of weigh in I'm kind of like a vote and it's kind of deliberately that you know the minimum is kind of low it's like enough that you're not going to spam the map but it's not that high that now like the incentives to go after points are also

13. 5:00

    meant to be kind of lower staked but we have seen people who instead of sticking 50 stick 10,000 and 20,000 and then people try to attack the point to get those tokens let's say there was 50 points pick token 50 tokens that staked by the Creator and someone challenges with 10,000 you can you promote evaded to say that the point is legit to claim the 10,000 points yeah so you can't

14. 5:26

    challenge more than an estate in it but if the point has a thousand which many do you can stake a thousand so then in that case the reward pool is 2,000 great and so then basically what we have then is a five days period and this is another parameter so just like the minimum is fifty how long is the voting period is another parameter so these are all can be voted on to change the parameters currently but right now you

15. 5:50

    have a five-day period and it's then open for a vote we're all cartographers can kind of weigh in and vote cast their votes and we're using partial lock can it reveal so that means that the votes are hidden nobody knows which side you voted for and so after this five-day period there's a three day reveal period and that's when people have to manually essentially reveal their votes and I'd say that guy revealed that guy revealed

16. 6:13

    maybe that guy forgot to and then you see what is the quorum of the this challenge and right now you basically need like a 40 percent or it's a 60 percent quorum so that means 60% of the people need to be against the challenge and the challenge will fail so let's say that happened and everyone says no that's correct Times Square should look this way even though it's not essentially because the channel fails 60% of this 50 go to here and

17. 6:41

    right now 40% go to the voters who are on the right side and so basically he had to put his tokens at stake to initiate the challenge people voted and in this case the Challenger lost what happens 60% is not the Challenger wins point is then removed completely so it's removed from the map and it's reverse so still some tokens go to the winning voters and instead the Challenger gets those 50 mm-hmm give the 60% of older voters 60% of the reward fool goes to each challenger and

18. 7:14

    40% of the ward pool so we just had a point basically where the point had 27,000 right and the Challenger came and this was just last week so that's actually starting to be a decent amount of money maybe like a thousand bucks for 800 books they came and they also locked 27,000 so now we have this like pretty big reward pool right and the Challenger lost so then you actually see when you

19. 7:38

    go back to this point it no longer says 27,000 it says like you know 48,000 or whatever and the rewards then went to the people and then we have like a leaderboard so you can see which accounts like earned tokens which ones are like have a negative balance things like that but as a challenger can I take less than V yes so if the point let's say has 27,000 and you see an error and you don't have 27,000 you can stake only 50 and so then that takes only 50 of

20. 8:06

    these so the reward pulls still hundred and it will show that the point then has 26,000 something and during the vote the person could withdraw up to leave behind 50 so you guys have to leave 50 so if they weren't challenged for the full amount they could use those tokens in the vote right but if they didn't withdraw and the challenge came with not burn not burn it goes to the and the voters so they burn it as a reward so it's pretty risky to stake 27,000 in

21. 8:38

    your point because somebody could come attack you but basically in this case they basically captured the challengers tokens because they won the vote or and so your incentive to vote properly is is because you don't see other people votes and you have a higher chance of having the same boat as everybody else if you vote yeah exactly and so obviously like you can't really stop Sybil that well right at the moment

22. 9:02

    but we are looking for like protocol upgrades because there's an upgrade path that we built in that's been like audited that you can launch like a new registry with new rules so you can do things like punishing the wrong side of the vote as well but I've dated them state they're not punished if you're on the wrong side of the voice you right now but the reason that's also challenging is because with the partial lock can MIT reveal you can use the same voting credits across multiple polls if

23. 9:27

    you start getting punished all of a sudden you're at this one and you're now like in debt because so there's a lot of unsolved problems around how to punish the voters but I don't you don't when you do commit yeah you can like you vote and like your vote is locked right no because the way it works is you can lock tokens in the voting contract and then you get these voting credits and you can use the same credits across multiple votes

24. 9:58

    I see so then if you're getting punished across them and then all of a sudden you only locked up 27,000 you use 27,000 across ten votes now you like lost in ten votes now you like lost more than you put in so I kind of need a different voting module or a clever way to avoid this kind of edge case but now another question so let's say that the point of interest is some coffee shop on an intersection of the streets yeah so in

25. 10:21

    general it's a very very small percentage of the cartographers is can properly validate the exams of the coffee shop and unless they go to Yelp but I guess the entire point yeah not to rely on the centralizing registers right so what would what would prevent someone who has a huge amount of degrees to just go after all of those coffee shops and like arbitrarily challenged them and

26. 10:43

    collect stakes from beer yeah I mean it's kind of like we've seen versions of this already it's kind of like a grief attack and of course if you have a lot of tokens you can kind of run the show you know with sense but this just happened in a way where kind of activated the community more than ever we're kind of like factions formed of people to kind of like vote instant and also things then like the parameters come into play so we have governance so let's say there's a guy with Auto tokens challenging all these coffee shops for fun well we can say

27. 11:08

    let's have the challenge period last a month so we have now a month to rally voters or say change the voting quorum to 90% so that it's much easier to defeat the Challenger so because there's all these like levers that you can like change in the TCR you can like react to that and because the stalkers have to be locked for a period of time there's like a period of time for people to see what's happening and react to it and the governance is a token based one token

28. 11:31

    one vote yeah currently and in the past experience how many how many holders per vote it's kind of been varying based on the challenge and the parameters but I couldn't say we had like 400,000 tokens in the voting contract and then it went to 800,000 then it was 1 million 2 million and then for this contentious vote we had over eight million tokens in the voting contracts over 8 million tokens in the voting contract was the total number of

29. 11:59

    tokens in the voting contract but but what is the total number of firm talk is that existence to 1 billion can exists we sold 300,000 so 30 percent are in circulation and so what's the next step with that yeah so basically now we have people debating these kind of parameters of like how we should change them and coming up with like different KPI metrics so if we wanted to change them in deposit we need to really take into consideration what's the gas cost of

30. 12:31

    voting because we can't have the min deposit mean that if you vote the rewards so small that you lose money with gas so we're kind of like trying to look at all these KPIs and analysis and we also like have people building on top of the map now so building like analytics tools and like curator dashboards to see how people are voting more intricately and we just let out like a grant program so people could build on our API and so hopefully more

31. 12:55

    comes out of the map and new specifications will come of how to improve the incentive models or make it more challenging to be a challenger or you know harass the map in some sense so that's kind of what is live now and yeah we're working on more broad is this proof of location to verify things in real time with these radios so we can you know transition to that but if you had a system like that you would be able to actually in this system

32. 13:18

    enforce that you're not able to challenge a point in San Francisco if you can't prove you were in in San Francisco recently or that you can't vote on these points if you can't show you like don't live here so as we get more and more secured kind of location tools you can like better kind of govern how this kind of thing works location one last what is the incentive for the Challenger to actually walk around the

33. 13:43

    challenge so right now there is no incentive to go check on these points like an open street map so people are incentivized to build out Maps but they don't have the time to check every detail here because every piece of data actually has tokens behind it if you find an error and you can challenge it and succeed you're winning tokens so right now there is no incentive to really check any of these maps and so the incentives are a little bit less on the actually cartographer side because

34. 14:10

    you don't get direct payouts for just simply adding a point you can earn tokens if your point survives a challenge so if you are confident in your point you might survive and we've seen this point got you know almost half their tokens just added to it just by existing but we kind of found that because it's ultimately subjective work having like an inflation or mining for adding points is very game Abul because it's not computational it's not

35. 14:33

    objective so it's kind of hard to have this like a infinite inflation just for adding points we think it actually would make the incentives more perverted than they are today right all right another question I have for that particular point that was seven twenty seven thousand points was the challenge meaningful No so we had a challenger that was actually started being very first very nitpicky so like oh it's

36. 14:57

    lower case instead of upper case and then they just started lying and that's when it kind of activated the people to rally against them and at that point they were like the whale so they could easily win the votes but because they like we're challenging falsely so many people then got involved to like fight back it's interesting to say interesting and they have an estimate of how many tokens actually voted so on that one fire five

37. 15:22

    seven million or 7 million make your opinion it's the highest highest there was like 30-something people who participated in the vote and at that point was the highest amount of tokens ever being used in a vote but the amount of vote was orders of magnitude higher than 27,000 yeah yeah oh okay so we moved approval vacation sure yeah do some erasing okay proof relegation so what we started with is just this kind of first step of bringing geospatial data into blockchain and one of the first ways to curate data

38. 16:13

    on maintain so it's a lot of like learnings to see how it goes but foam is meant to be for all of web 3 and location and when you look at how location works today it actually has a lot of issues that people are not that aware of and the main issue is that around the location verification it's very impossible to do 100% and so the reason is we currently the way it works is we have our planet Earth wonderful planet and we actually have

39. 16:36

    all this GPS satellites in space right and there's about like 30-something of them right and so the way GPS works is that they use a time synchronization protocol to synchronize all of their clocks and there are these stations on the earth that will synchronize them for you and then the GPS is simply just broadcasting out to earth all the time what time it is right that's the sole purpose of GPS and so us on the ground

40. 17:07

    as a receiving it standing here and you hold your phone if you can get at least four signals your phone can do trilateration which is a way it's like a form of triangulation that it can actually through knowing all the time figure out the distance the differentiation between the how long it took to get all the signals and can then figure out your location so that's currently how it works today when you pull out your phone and you're waiting

41. 17:31

    for this blue dot to appear it's listening to at least four radios right and everyone would agree GPS works pretty good right yeah you can figure out how to get where you're going but this is only a one-way communication so as the receiver you don't speak back to GPS GPS has no idea where you are right it's all assuming is broadcasting the time and so we actually find is that because of that it's extremely easy to lie about your location because there's no like history or place where these

42. 17:56

    like your location exists other than like your apps logging it after the fact but you can just download an app to change your GPS very easily and trick even your these apps right now and so when it comes to any situation where there's anything at value like let's say for example Pokemon go very small value but some value that more than how I had in mind more than half the players are spoofing their GPS so they can run around to all these cities and Niantic they wanted to

43. 18:18

    make a ton of money by partnering with the businesses where people go for poker stops but they couldn't because everybody was cheating their GPS so this kind of like whole market of location kind of activity is suppressed because there's no way to verify the data and when you look at things like uber for example they're spending hundreds of millions to try to prevent the GPS spoofing because the drivers if they make the ride look longer they can make a little bit more money and so this is a

44. 18:42

    problem from everything from supply chain Internet of Things gaming mobility to problem for everybody but everyone's kind of solving in their own weird band-aid way and so we think that there's a chance to launch a full alternative to the GPS not necessarily for pinpoint navigation but for this new service of verifying location and so what we want to do with this system is basically have a terrestrial based

45. 19:06

    system made of low-power radios I owe tea based ones that are quite small maybe I can just for example something like this and so these are radios that can go really long distance but they also have a really long battery so it's not like bluetooth where they would die quickly and you put them on the places and so in our system we call these zone anchors and we're trying to incentivize people to be network operators and offer a zone of coverage and so what I mean is instead of

46. 19:31

    satellites in space you would have a radio there on that corner of the block a radio there on that corner that corner in that corner and they would be running this protocol where they synchronize their clocks with each other and then there are available so that's kind of like a quorum on time and space that they are basically offering or service for and the difference would be that just like GPS they're broadcasting out

47. 19:57

    the time so that if you can hear at least if you can hear them you can figure out where you are is that you can then as the customer who's walks into this zone you can then send out a message to these guys right saying hey for a small C can you include in your message logs that I've been here and the only way I could ever generate such a message is if I was actually physically in your zone device you can also receive

48. 20:21

    messages yeah and so the idea is that in our system are going to have these radios running this time sync protocol and so that protocol is like so you have time is running over radio right and then they're keeping the logs and sharing a state machine and with that right now we're using a tender mint based consensus so you have basically like this zone of four radios is covering an area over radio and then they have a shared state machine and they're keeping

49. 20:51

    kind of a consensus on what happened in the logs using ten Derman and then ultimately for this zone to really exist they first would have to stake foam on the root chain and again go to video it could be a cosmos zone it could be Definity but right now imagine it's a theorem whatever would happy the safest place and so they would stake there put in collateral and basically enter into an agreement saying we're gonna follow the protocol rules we're gonna offer location services in this particular

50. 21:23

    area if you then catch us lying or inserting fake data I'm gonna lose my stake but if not I can get these mining rewards and I can get these fees from customers so now there's incentive basically for people to actually run these things at home right now and right now that doesn't really they don't have to but if they are near each other they will automatically hear each other's messages and so they'll each be their kind of own plasma chain so they they

51. 22:05

    they don't speak to each other via the blockchain directly but they have overlapping messages and then they get into each other's logs so if all of a sudden in this zone if they're actually overlapping starts saying oh I got Jonny's messages he was here and in all the zones around it those messages don't than they were probably inserting like a fake message I see so because they can hear each other over if they can hear each other over radio and then when you have ones that are

52. 22:31

    completely isolated they will like have like a trust level of zero and you'd have to like and there will be a class of users called like mobile verifiers and it's like if they've already been in a trusted zone you have to like attract them to your zone to like a test that you're a real zone or something so so let's say this is a customer right mm-hmm be working into one business that business has the receivers and there's another nearby and just for reference

53. 22:55

    these are gonna go like multiple miles so also we have coverage so they store multiple miles away in ideal scenario it might be have to be closer in the city but in let's say it's a desert yeah they're covering it that's why we have to test so much in real-world is gonna perform differently in Tokyo than a desert to get the optimal like distances but in general they're meant to go like further than like Bluetooth or something

54. 23:20

    or Wi-Fi I'm a customer right I'm working into here and this were within range for me hmm at least these are not within range for me but but they can see potentially for example this this one not yesterday right I'm sending a message saying I was here will that message propagate further to other radios yeah I mean it's basically then like the first come the first to sign it back will be the ones on the route chain

55. 23:50

    that get your payment but it's possible that it hits this zone and they approve it and then it travels further and further and they all try to approve it they don't wind up getting the payment but they do keep the history of your message so that's like use then for the validators to go back and look for fraud so it's very easy to check fraud if it's like all about if you're violating the laws of physics so if like someone from near team has all of a sudden a presence named in China and in New York within

56. 24:13

    the same day same 12 hours it'll be automatically caught by the validators that reading all the logs mm-hmm but let's see let's say I'm not trying to like to lie outrageously and I just want to say that my Pokemon go right in fact what I'm trying to say is that I'm moving around the city well actually I'm sitting yeah but not sending any messages so nobody knows that I'm yeah so will it be that I just go like let's say corrupted these four gates which is

57. 24:45

    very few compared to the total number here consumed in the area right could it could I just ask all of them to include a message that I wasn't this location yeah may be broadcasted further sure but the idea is that you have all this if the protocol is working improperly you have a mesh of zones and so even if you corrupt this zone the idea is that this will then be the only zone that has your message and it should have showed up in

58. 25:08

    everybody else's so then you have to bribe this on this on this on this on this on this on this on yeah but you said that in order to include my messages the logs I need to pay a small fee right yeah it's unlikely that they would be working around the city and trying to get them to every log yeah but if you actually are passing by than you are passing by you know it's the only it's the only way to get your message into their log is to bribe them or

59. 25:34

    physically be there right right and if you bribe them and all the other zones you didn't bribe every other zone now it's gonna be rejected as a presence claim because it's not nobody else heard it but then the owners kisser let's say I'm not bribing anyone yeah so I'm actually walking into this place huh and at this point I'm willing to pay the fee began to listen to the laws and only only four of them here include me into the logs here but after that I'm not paying anyone yeah I'm still like how

60. 26:00

    was it different from the case where I'm not physically there why why would other zones know that I was uh well it's time-stamped right so you're saying I was in this vicinity at this exact time and it's are then a receipt and so it's ultimately then lives on the route chain as a first-class object so you can then let's say you're the uber driver and the app says for you to get paid you have to produce seven receipts from your route right at the end of your route you would

61. 26:24

    automatically reveal those to the app and that app has all its own logic of what they want you to do right right and so mostly it'd be like you don't want to be consuming stale persons claims that are outdated but it could be valuable to also how like a private log of where you've been in case there's some controversy or something but much of a Pokemon go right let's see let's say hypothetically box

62. 26:49

    wants people to check in on Pokemon go yeah right will they also ask the application to check in on some nearby other nearby places to verify that they were that's completely up to the application so the protocols job is to serve one single purpose which is to offer fault-tolerant time services that you can derive location from and if it's producing those correctly and incentivizing network coverage the idea is that any

63. 27:12

    application can then define their own logic so the pokemons mom might say hey you have to get to presence claims within a one-hour window at this part of town in this part of town and then you unlock Mewtwo but the uber one might say you need fifty to get paid because it's more important to us to verify your every step for something so every application can kind of define how they want to consume presence claims so our protocol just allows the infrastructure

64. 27:35

    for customers to generate them another question is let's say that the city is covered in those beacons right so it's it's San Francisco New York yeah and these thousands of those use the entire seat you're going to be running attend urban consensus or they split into small groups so to every single zone is it's like own state machine and the reason is because they also could all have different time periods that they commit to the protocol so you might have thousands of zones but one zone is committed to one month one zone is committed for three months and so they

65. 28:08

    each can have their own kind of engagement with the protocol and each individual case is its own plasma chain or its own tender mint consensus and would you find a zone so presumably those four radios they belong to different entities right so not by necessarily like so to form a zone you need at least four so that's four XYZ and a fourth for time same with EPS you need at least four signals and so the idea is that you can

66. 28:32

    blindly stake tokens and try to find peers to join his own or yourself setting up for and like creating his own I see but then the idea is they could also be open for new notes to pro in that zone or something so it's like one business like let's say my company set up most of the zones so we have a ton of coverage but then individuals could come online and contribute to those zones and join that agreement or something and then usually when they when they deploy this

67. 29:04

    little thingy it synchronizes I know it's meant to be completely GPS free so there probably has to be some like trust zones that have some sort of ceremony where they can be established so that you have like the coordinates you know you can believe the coordinates and you know it's there so let's say here in the new lab we made the first trust zone through some process that everyone was comfortable with then all the zones that

68. 29:26

    appear around it can like cross-reference that they know where they are and eventually with enough coverage you don't need this trust own anymore right so when you have a new beacon so it may be like when we launch there's like 10 cities that become trust zones and then maybe there's like a in protocol process as a ways to add new ones or something but that's not to find yet like if I want to add a point here I think we're just gonna talk too much but I need to talk to to four people in a particular zone right because then you

69. 29:51

    lose so you don't need to you don't have to be in touch with every point so a zone is made up of pairwise connections so let's say you could only talk to those two but still be part of this whole zone but how do i how do I know my Corgan is going to probe them well one it's like self-reported by like the people is you know where you are when you're installing your zone look how do I know where I am

70. 30:17

    DSP cuz you how do you know where you are you also have like a deed with your what's the government like you know where you are right so it's like self reporting this - understanding of how geo works in general but how in the world project yes how do people know their coordinates it's doing a trial adoration so it can determine through the intersection of Jesus fears if you're either here or here and in the case of GPS you're not in space so you're here

71. 30:48

    and then they're using a Geo encoding standard of latitude/longitude trying to avoid using GPS right yeah how then would they know my my location when that when I'm deploying a new beacon so we're not trying to say like where you're competing with GPS three that you're not going to not use GPS like you might be using GPS to drive your car around but you're using foam to actually prove where you've been right so the idea is

72. 31:10

    you have this trust anchor situation like how do I know I am I know I'm at the new lab there's no one I don't need GPS to know where I have it yeah so you know where you are and you're self reporting it but if you like sign up in New York and you put in it that you're in Alaska and all of a sudden nobody and the other Alaskan can hear you but also never in New York can you're probably

73. 31:26

    gonna lose your stake because you're not where you said you were and so challenges on the on the on the route chain right so let's say let's say one of the beacons actually goes down villain right and and and it starts yeah including loads that clearly did not happen here at the person the routine subjective for this some sort of way to cryptograph you like the probabilistic live cryptographic the truth it's completely objective its objective yeah so the idea is like if you just turn off you're not producing logs anymore so

74. 31:58

    that's a slashing condition if you're producing logs that are not in line with either the other nodes in your zone or the neighboring zones that's like a slashing condition but what would be a proof that the log message isn't consistent to the neighborhood the zones would be the blog's would be different right but but they but presumably because this done in this zone they not in a tender mean consensus between them right it could be that

75. 32:23

    someone actually get some message to this poor guys but never ever sent message to in a neighboring zone right yeah that's for the customers I was talking about the actual just the logs of the zone what are the other logs of the zone which are not about customers so what sort of looks at actually producing the basically the time-sink message I'm a cryptographic signature so it's like you know full the cap of the

76. 32:48

    message is some bytes and like 90% of the message is a cryptographic signature and then it's just the timestamp and they're just like doing it over and over again and then there's like a reset function if they like drift too far apart and so they're basically only broadcasting I'm happy this is what time it is or hey guys we should we sync and they're just keeping a log of that all

77. 33:05

    the time so if like one guy stops producing logs he's down or if all of a sudden he's spitting out different data than everyone else that's like suspect and so tender man would automatically shut down if like two-thirds of the nodes are malicious even one third right I mean yeah one third so then the zone would basically be off and then there's like ways to exit a malicious plasma chain and every all the other zones would still be running and so by the time a

78. 33:28

    verifier reads all these logs and like post something back to the root chain it would be determined that those guys got slashed if these guys didn't we don't have this stuff hard-coded because it's going to be kind of a function of how well it performs through test networks and different things it's okay so now let me try to do sure to recap what we just so this particular people very very

79. 33:50

    frequently right now can do the sent messages like every second yeah just a call bits up like just over this area so that's like what we look at I sent a message that says I'm happy and it's a 1505 but after nanosecond or whatever yeah and that message primarily is going to be received by these two people maybe neighboring guys right so this is completely off chain but do you think there's a plasma change on someone is actually generating entering blocks all

80. 34:13

    that soft chain obviously it's on the radio and then they're sharing a state machine locally and that is basically a plasma blockchain but we're using tundra me and then that log will to me will be checked and posted back to the root chain so they'll be checked like at the offense for example yeah like they'll be like a different class of users called the verifiers that actually like your Fed zone logs off chain as well and then can you know use some multi-party

81. 34:38

    computational technique to like post the results with a way that there's a way to challenge them but other any concerns with that because it all happens on a very local scale right right the zone is only for people which is very loosely compared to the yeah it could be larger but minimum right but other you can start with so there's some other entity which is which is tasked with verifying

82. 35:00

    their laws either confirmed that they will just pick the tendered the logs didn't exist just left someone we're not because I have to put out the same like kind of like collateral to be a verifier was someone that and also we didn't code this so it could be it's like ran your like randomly provided you don't get to choose which tones your validating so they would you're basically putting your own collateral at risk to like fake the verification so the idea is that if you

83. 35:24

    say the logs don't exist but some other very fire yeah sends them yeah well they were they're available for anyone even if you're not a verifier some where maybe they're not but that's good yeah so it's like this thing you just broadcast logs just broadcasting anyone who's nearby conducive so the idea is like you can receive those messages for free so you can say hey open the phone app I'm here okay I open the GPS app okay

84. 35:48

    they're similar cool I don't want to buy a receipt I'll just gonna shut it off and so you can anyone can hear the messages but then the kind of value add over GPS is that you can actually do this cryptographic handshake and produce this receipt what we call a presence claim that doesn't exist today so even if the accuracy is 100 meters which we're trying to get obviously like five or ten meters it's still better than whatever exists today because there is no way to verify your location today

85. 36:13

    mm-hmm how will they know I didn't think personally imagine imagine I'm here right I'm a validator I'm here I'm listening to the to the messages from these two zones and let's say that this zone is going malicious but the only thing they're doing is that they just reporting time like you know half a second earlier than it is right so I can clearly see there's a discrepancy between the two but I don't know which of them is wrong so this point it's got a more subjective right I will just try to sing cries with another

86. 36:46

    zone you see which you like which of them work is more consistent all right well that's not necessarily so the time sync protocol can synchronize up to one clock tick so then that's like how good are your clocks and you can also make the case that oh the weather got colder over here so that's why the time sync is slightly slower because like let's say the career crystals will get a little bit colder and vibrate a little bit

87. 37:10

    slower so it's like not about there is no absolute time so you can't really go to any single reference point to compare and so if it's still synchronizing and it's still accurate just because it's slightly slower doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong because they could actually vary by environmental conditions so it's like it works up to one clock tick but if your clock starts to be really slow that doesn't

88. 37:33

    necessarily mean you're an AK a bad actor we could of course add something that like if your clock starts to drop too low that's a bad condition how much does a cure of the location so let's say the district is their club goes with one speed but this one is slower because it's I'm not the best guy to answer but it's for example on nanoseconds you can get like 10 meters on microseconds here like a hundred meters that was like higher than that you're at like a mile

89. 37:57

    so you need nanoseconds basically hmm well then if someone is actually reporting time half a second to week that would that would be yeah but it's like if they're still running the protocol correctly it's then the location claims are still accurate because it's still like a trilateration here's a client right the way it works is it receives four messages from GPS or from film those messages like effective the moment they receive the message I can see the

90. 38:29

    timestamp I know how long it's been traveling and they're having four of those messages I can I can but all those four messages the the the meters of those messages they had to have very the clocks in a very synchronized State mm-hm so in this case it feels to me that if one of them is actually start slowing down yeah well then if they can't keep up with the protocol then that's like maybe their hardware is faulty and then

91. 38:55

    that's another way that they're breaking their contract I guess my question is what if someone's intention was something wrong that would be well if it's only one node then they would be found out right look how like what would be what have you the message that goes to the root chain is a challenge that says the death note is a second I don't think that it would turn out that way it's more that if they can't synchronize as a zone then there's a problem because one node is not synchronizing he will

92. 39:18

    either drop that node right so it's all its fault tolerant but what the entire zone is then the zone gets slashed so it's the time centers my question yeah what would be the message that goes to the root chain to start the zone of the entire zone is have a second it's not defined in terms of like the message type right because my questions how do you prove that they the base if they're so they're gonna be operating one way

93. 39:43

    which is like the happy path and so they're gonna be posting logs every day and it's better checked by a verifier every day and if all of a sudden by on Friday they're like logs are not being reported correctly now there's like a reason to you know well I guess watch them so a very specific example I took these four notes that every day they were operating properly and one of the days they intentionally made one of the notes to

94. 40:07

    report time a little bit wrong so that people who within the zone their location is very often you're you're a verifier you walk into this zone you can definitely say that they are your location is over you have all those logs but how do you present them how do you prove to the to everybody else who's not in this location that that they is reporting yeah I mean so like I'm trying to say is the time sync protocols PFT so it's fault tolerance so the zones

95. 40:31

    gonna drop the nodes that are not performing up until the threshold when in the zone shuts what the entire zone is permanent so in the zone one node is intentionally sending time crap a second delete the remaining for a cooperating but if they're cooperating that means they're synchronizing so therefore the time synchronization data is useful for location because if they are synchronizing slower they're still synchronizing and that means that you

96. 40:56

    can still drive location the time rest time is exactly 1505 right mm-hmm over here this note tells me it's exactly 15 and they like on the hardware level they their time is synchronized mhm right so this one is telling me thanks you can afford for five dismissed including a pipe five but this one says it's intentionally sending five a second to wait and everybody else all of those

97. 41:27

    four nodes if they were owners they would just say well your time is completely wrong we're gonna drop you but they do not drop them right so then the user hearing those for me but as soon as the verifier looks at the log they see that this is not operating correctly and it'll be slashed but how do you how do you prove like imagine you're a very friendly because they have a log so you're even saying yourself that they're sending the wrong message but it's kept in the log alright so as

98. 41:50

    soon as you look at the log and you see that they're all in sync in this guy but this guy is not in sync so therefore the protocol will still other work correctly because it's fault tolerant even if this guy is sending the wrong message and at the end of the day he'll lose his stick so even if it's fake even it's on purpose or if because his hardware's broken he's still not following the protocol correctly but but if they all then switch their time to 15 10 15 10 then still working correctly

99. 42:15

    because it's not trying to sync to this guy's wristwatch because they're just trying to synchronize to themselves right right how would you that makes more sense the only thing I'm still a little confused is that the log because energy like that I could look like five seconds away right but in reality it's going to be like two nanoseconds to Dinah seconds can like bring you like 30 meters away right which is a pretty long distance in the

100. 42:40

     city right in the logs you can easily hide the two nanoseconds to skip and so like in the logs you will say yeah yeah that message was sent at the proper time you cannot prove that it was sent to nanoseconds later right I guess but it's important that you have four in the first place for XYZ and a fourth to check the time variance so that's why you're using four you can do actually the trial iteration with three so that's why you have a minimum before but ideally your zone is 15 and then you're

101. 43:04

     gonna be able to drop the nodes not performing and if more too many are acting malicious the whole thing will go down yeah I don't need to think more about it I guess like on the very high level what seems a little hard to achieve is that even if you have a doughnut 15 but they cooperating right the intention of accumulation see it could be that they will make like seven of them or like even all 15 of them to introduce some random discrepancy of like five nanoseconds right that will create almost gibberish locations for

102. 43:35

     everybody yeah well that's jitter and the protocol can like resync based off jitter and clock drift and then if they don't resync then they're dropped or flushed so it's like yeah but then there's all nobody will catch it because they're all cooperating outside of the zone it's really hard to prove that someone is sending data which is which is fine on the seconds away because you cannot record the message like just like I'm sorry I just think

103. 43:58

     this is like not valuable path to go down because for the time synchronization protocol accounts for clock jitter so every time there's jitter it'll like call for a resync and if somebody is introducing to interested or all the time and it has to keep resyncing well then it's not synchronized and therefore the zone will be slasher is there something that we did not cover I mean that's pretty much

104. 44:21

     like the gist of the idea mmm awesome so one non-technical question that we always just ask at the end when is probably keeps maintenance I that's an unknown unknown we're working now and like a demo that's gonna have the plasma demonstration and have the radios to the time sink and then move towards kind of a reference design for a developer board and then we need kind of mass testing to

105. 44:46

     see how it performs and go across all these unknown unknowns so then it's be more of like a grass roots kind of effort to determine when it's time to activate I mean that well exciting yeah thanks awesome thanks a look yeah thanks for everything