Modular Chain Abstraction | Illia Polosukhin, Nick White, Zaki Manian, Stephane Gosselin

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:01

   sweet uh I think we're still waiting on our last speaker but um I figure we may as well start since uh it's two minutes past the hour so welcome everyone um we're doing another Twitter space or I don't know maybe we should call it xpace um nowadays but the the topic of today's space is uh modular chain abstraction and um we have a really amazing lineup of guest who have been deep in the space for many

2. 0:34

   many years and have I'm sure a lot of wisdom to share um and the you know the high level is that you know in in a world of modular blockchains with you know thousands if not in the future millions of rollups we're going to have a lot of complexity to deal with and um this idea of chain abstraction is the most promising uh sort of I would say field that that promises to solu to

3. 1:05

   solve this the problems of fragmentation across this you know potentially very large number of of different rollups and chains um that everyone will be interacting with so um that's what we're here to talk about today um why don't we go through a round of introductions from all of our different speakers um whoever wants to kick us off go for it I can you us off hey everyone Amilia co-founder of near and uh great to be here great to

4. 1:37

   dive in to the chain abstraction topic zaky Stefan all right I'll jump in uh hey everyone I'm Stefan so why am I here um I was previously founder at flash Bots I now founded something called Frontier research um and we are working with a variety of different industry members on the topic of cake so chain abstraction key elements we put together a working group and the goal is to drive some

5. 2:17

   level of standardizations across the industry on both evm and non evm chains to be able to help create a better cross chain experience so excited to be here zucky is your uh mic working now yes my audio is is is unbug all right uh I'll just do quickly introduce myself uh Zaki Manion co-founder of similer uh I've been I think like the general theme of my involvement here is I think we have finally gone to a place we're through a variety of different

6. 2:55

   ways blockchains are scalable um after you know 10 years of working on blockchains um we we have some ways of making you know low fees high volume use cases happen um but B but now there's like a bit the the the remaining technical challenge is how do we make blockchains usable um and I think that there are lots of people that I've been working with for many years who all have

7. 3:19

   different pieces of technology and have built different kinds of things uh with similer we we tried to build you know we've we've tried to build a chain abstracted app um uh for accessing and I think there's uh so there you know this many chain like I think we you know we can have sovereignty um we can have utility we could have defi we could have meme coins but we could also have

8. 3:42

   usability um if we just bring the right pieces together and uh I think the chain abstraction Community is sort of bleeding the charge on this so you're saying that we can have our cake and eat it too that that is the that is the uh uh that that is possible with the uh me optimizations the C both exist right ingredients right ingredients awesome um so why don't we start out then with talking about you know what like where's the what's the

9. 4:15

   origin of this of this problem of of fragmentation I mean um this is you know as you said we're entering a world of of lots of different chains we finally have scalability solutions that seem to be working um and yet once now that we've solved scalability it's led to this other problem which is fragmentation so why don't we talk about like the origins of fragmentation and then um you know how

10. 4:39

    chain abstraction uh is a response to this problem well let's not all go all at once I can kick it off um we as zi mentioned have you know I would say like a explosion of solutions right that kind of over past five years matured uh of how do we want to scale blockchain right this is you know different layer ones we then had you know obviously app chain approach and we have now rollups uh that introducing

11. 5:21

    kind of uh you know a new dimension of how you can scale blockchains and how you can um kind of launch new uh blockchains in kind of way easier way right and celes have been driving a lot of that as well and so all that introduced so much blog space introduced ton of address space but also introduced new wallets introduce uh kind of a ton of different tools a lot of um kind of applications that function functionally are the same but live on different chains and so all

12. 5:59

    of this creates kind of fragmentation and complexity that uh this kind of new rollup that's launching probably every hour now is just increasing uh kind of the demand on the user to understand uh how they interacting with web 3 uh you know the example is you go to metamask you know you drop down of networks you can connect to mine probably already is longer than uh screen you know plus I have you know Kepler wallet obviously near wallet you know salana wallet

13. 6:30

    Bitcoin wallet and so uh just navigating all that complexity is becoming very unruly and so the kind of primary idea here is how do we provide an experience that is more direct to what user really wants right which is you know uh use some cool app you know by uh new nft that just launched or you know uh interact with some other uh blockchain app and not need to figure out the navigation of the infrastructure right

14. 7:05

    which bridge to go what gas token to get how you know exactly um the kind of the route between where your assets are and uh what you want should be constructed and you know what is all the failure cases that can happen between and so that's really kind of again this movement is bringing is you know in the modular word in the app chain world in world of multiple layer Wes that are you know gaining massive adoption uh how do we really build experience that moves

15. 7:38

    all of that in the background and allows users to freely navigate web 3 so I have a I have a bit of a special take on this um how do we get here um I joined ethereum space in 2017 and I heard stories of what was like to be in um in the ethereum community before there used to be this sort of dream that um every user of ethereum would run a you know gu node locally and then they would download apps they would host it

16. 8:10

    on Swarm um and they would basically run those apps locally and they would speak with their local ethereum node uh sign transactions and propagate them to the network there would be one chain one client it would be super simple to use um and we get censorship resistance we get all the good things that we want to get out of blockchains um that is very different than the world that we are in today um I don't know if you guys have

17. 8:33

    seen this thing called the transaction supply network but there's a lot a lot of lot of hosted pieces Services run by a bunch of different providers that are helping bring transactions on chain um yet the toolkits and the accounts that we use for being able to communicate with every single component of this and do permissioning and all these things have not changed we're still in the same framework and mindset as we were in you

18. 8:56

    know 2014 when the ethereum protocol was started to be worked on I think like one tidbit that's interesting to to remember is the fact that chain ID was not introduced as like a parameter inside of the ethereum transaction like signing format until the 2016 Dow hardfork right like before then there wasn't even the concept of there being multiple different execution environments that a transaction could be routed to um and so we've sort of as a as a space um with

19. 9:27

    the beauty of the ethereum community what it is grown in like a bunch of diverse directions and sort of organically but without the ability of having an integrated sort of view of what we want the the future to um to look like and the users are like feeling this extremely right like if you look at the numbers right now between ethereum ecosystem and all the different EVMS versus the salana ecosystem all the retail users are going to salana because they don't have this fragmented user

20. 10:01

    experience the like model there was actually designed to work the way that it's working now as opposed to be designed to work in a complete different architecture to to where we are today um I Heard um I Heard It described in this way which I thought was was quite powerful description for people who you know are more technically minded um what the ethereum and like rollup ecosystem is asking users to do today is

21. 10:24

    essentially to run a kubernetes cluster in their brain and try to like manage manage scheduling their jobs across all these different execution environments manage how their state is being done and like manually Bridge State from one place to another and like resources compute resources from one place to another to make sure that they're able to get the job that they want to get done um and that's just not tenable it's just not a place that we can stay as an industry if we want this rollup

22. 10:48

    ecosystem to actually succeed I kind of want to respond to that but I want to let let zucky chime in too oh it looks like zucky is uh yeah Z is fighting with internet and spaces at the same time anyway so Stan I mean kind of what I'm hearing you say is that um you know the like the way that these systems have been designed did not take into consideration that there would be multiple chains in the beginning but now that we're kind of in in that situation

23. 11:29

    um Can people hear me guess the infrastructure hasn't really ad oh there you are Zaki go for it yeah yeah uh okay uhoh okay is it just me or are other people having trouble hearing Zak yeah we all having trouble yeah I think zaki's internet is not Cooperative oh jeez one day one day we have a more consistent Network okay well anyway back to what I was um saying to Stefan um the thing and

24. 12:29

    so you know you were saying that um the the current sort of ethereum mucos system was not really designed in a way that um it is enables like a good user experience in this sort of fragmented um situation H but monolithic chains like Sal that can avoid fragmentation do have a good user experience at least for now but don't you think that fundamentally I mean any single basically the only way

25. 12:55

    to scale blockchains is is to have multiple State machines you we're never going to have one single World computer that's unified like that original vision of ethereum was never going to work to begin with um so maybe I guess what I'm saying is that the sure having like a bigger more performant um single chain is is good but it doesn't solve it still doesn't it's not the end game and doesn't solve like you're always going to run into this problem essentially yeah well I'm not I'm not the scalability guy I think like my my

26. 13:26

    career in the in the e in the eum space and the blockchain space has like explicitly been to avoid working on scalability and I always like Pond it off to someone else as as a problem to solve um so I don't really have an opinion on here I'm just observing where the users are and objectively there's like 10 times more retail users on salono than there is on ethereum and all the EVMS combined today um 10 times more

27. 13:51

    retail users and Retail volume um and so to me that's um that's the observation I'm making and I can only theorize that the reason for that is terrible ux because we have the block space scalability with l2s now um and so it's definitely not cost that that's that's fair enough go ahead yeah I I can I can respond maybe yeah like I think I mean we we just had the panel where we discussed this right

28. 14:16

    I think any any single block space right will get filled just by by definition because it it's an auction and so if it's not filled there's a lower price and so people will fill it until there's a high price and so it it's an equilibrium of uh kind of how valuable is changing that State uh is um and so then you kind of go from there and so generally speaking there's there's always will be

29. 14:46

    demand for more block space one way or another and I think you know one way or another sharding be that in a single chain or through kind of rollups pirate chains subnets whatever people love to call them you know is a way to continue increasing the Box space and have the variety and flexibility that developers want to have uh and I mean that's where we are right Market forces clearly show that uh this is where we're moving so we you know do need to provide kind of a

30. 15:19

    level of abstraction for all the users across all of these experiences and so that's yeah I think like the the vision of a single you know atomics Atomic um State machine that will you know cover all use cases I I don't think even salana I mean even people in Sal agree that this is not visible to have you know everything running on one state machine so so we do have this um challenge of multi-chain one way or another and so now how do we how do we fix that so we can dig in

31. 15:54

    that Zaki maybe your issues yes maybe maybe I'm maybe I'm back you sound good we're so back anyway give us tell us your thoughts uh so I think so the the like core aspect of it is developers of applications today are facing like so like we we've talked a lot about the challenges the users face but sort of sitting between the like sort of blockchains and the users is bunch of developers and those developers

32. 16:31

    are trying to build something um that users want to engage in they need to figure out how to onboard people they need to figure out how to sort of persistently maintain relationships um you know people have to be able to come back to their app people have to use their app and I think like one of the real challenges is you know what what what pieces of infrastructure that have been offered to developers are all very

33. 16:55

    one chain Centric um you know use this you know here is this wallet API uh it it works in one ecosystem with one set of wallets um maybe there's something about bridging and liquidity routing in an ecosystem maybe there isn't uh maybe you can maybe there are you know ways of moving between sourcing users who have assets on one or two places or one or two centralized exchanges it's all been very limiting and I think that there's

34. 17:24

    like now needs to be a movement just like there you know you know the big movements in blockchain that I've been a part of are the you know the transition to proof of stake you know which allowed us to have this abundance of block space the uh you know the beginnings of you know bridging native bridging with IBC and Native interop um the be you know the modular architecture uh contributed

35. 17:48

    to all of those and all of that has been about okay we we we could we could provide a basic security framework that developers to build and we can we can give them an abundance of block space but now we have to to give them the tools and the infrastructure so that they can onboard users um and that the that users aren't you know sort of Trapped um in one you know whether they're Bitcoin users whether they're ethereum users whether they're salana

36. 18:11

    users whether they're Cosmos users they actually just can use everything there shouldn't be a cosmos user or a salana user or a Bitcoin user there's just a user and you can use everything that web three has talk totally agree so we've been talking like more more abstractly but what are the specific you know when we're talking about fragmentation um what are the actual specific pain points that people feel

37. 18:43

    like we've kind of been like mentioning them sort of but let's like actually enumerate them more specifically whether they're users or developers I can take a cck at this um I think probably the main one is just that users have to think about where their state is um I don't think that users want to think about this and I don't think that like the application developers have the tools to

38. 19:16

    take that away from the users what users want to think about is what do I want to get done what's the like desired outcome that I want um and and then it should be the job of the application to do whatever it can to get the job done um and then it's the job of the execution environments to settle those things to make sure that those things take place and can't be reverted right

39. 19:49

    um and so in order for users to be able to Simply Express the desired outcome we need this like entire thing called intent um and we need some kind of way for expressing in a sort of declarative way what we want um the output of the interaction to be and we need secure ways for which those intents get fulfilled um using some counterparties using some routing um all the components that um that have been sort of mentioned

40. 20:22

    um once we have I think those Primitives and we sort of propagate them um then the user can simply say I want to have XY token uh in exchange for my eth soul near um and then they don't need to worry about where the Fulfillment and the execution happens because the application developer is able to make those decisions for the user yeah maybe just to add another example is right now you know we're trying to get more users off uh kind of

41. 21:03

    a pure seed phrase controlled wallets which are extremely dangerous people keep copy pasting their seat phrase into the places they shouldn't and to a more smart contract kind of account abstra account abstracted wallets now if you imagine you want to do that across you know a dozen chains uh some of which are have a very different account model right you know you have Bitcoin you have uh kind of EVMS you have near like that becomes extremely complicated you have now kind of complexity of different

42. 21:37

    wallet providers they support different features uh and you now need to figure out how all of those things are kind of working and if something happens let's say you do want to rotate your private key uh you want to add a new device like you need to do go and do all of this across all those providers and and potentially even um uh specific chains and so the kind of solution here is really have kind of one account that's able to navigate the other chains

43. 22:09

    and that account is where you're managing all of your access your social recovery your uh you know TFA uh and whatever other security features and kind of usability features you want to have and then that can propagate across the whole F3 and you're not um pretty much manually need to go and like figure out and fix everything so something that um that we're looking sorry Zaki Something That We're actively working on with the um with the cake working group is this

44. 22:43

    account question um several people have tried to build sort of Smur contract wallets with account abstraction and there's always been this huge amount of difficulty in getting these things adopted like I worked on some of the first SM contracts that had Universal deployments across all the EVMS and allowed for thirdparty relays to bring the transactions to the chain and Abstract away um the gas I worked on that in 2019 and so the technology was already

45. 23:15

    available in 2019 and it's always been available and there's been like tens if not hundreds of different teams that have you know tried to pitch this to VCS to build out the new type of account that you know going to be um account have full account abstraction and be a smart contract wallet that has all the nice features that everyone wants um but the reality is just they've never picked up in demand and in adoption because I believe there's a coordination problem in getting people to switch from one

46. 23:47

    type of account to another um everyone is sort of tied in to the same Json RPC API based account definition um that was the in 2014 um because everyone else still is and so it just has a humongous Network effects and we are sort of in this inadequate equilibria where um where there isn't a way for people to switch out of it um so what we're trying to do with this this cake working group is create a shelling Point around helping

47. 24:17

    the entire Community switch from one inadequate equilibria to a better equilibria where we can actually develop those better um those better um users experiences um and I firmly believe that the only way to do that is with sort of ecosystem-wide um alignment um because if we don't do this approach we will just further fragment um the space by developing all kinds of different account models that aren't necessarily compatible with each

48. 24:50

    other I was just going to say I think that there's a a continuity that exists so there's an I think chain obstruction is sort of trying to address all of these problems which is or like there are pro there are challenges with the usability of the sort of modern multi-chain ecosystem that are best solved through new account models there are problems that are best solved by allowing users to delegate some of their usage to agents so you could have you know simila can be

49. 25:22

    thought of as like an agent that goes out and earns yield for you um so you don't have to deal so you could just you know keep all of your state on one chain keep all of your uh uh interactions on one chain but there's these agents who will go out and deal with bridging and and the intents and then you know there are times where you want to be able to delegate what you want to do to a market because you can very precisely specify exactly what you want you want to you

50. 25:45

    want to hold this asset on this chain and you want to trade for it this way and you don't want it any more than this uh you you know you don't want it to cost uh at least this much um you know those kinds of cases you could delegate out to markets and so well we want what what chain obstruction really needs to enable users to do is to have sort of standardized ways of extending the power

51. 26:07

    of their accounts so that they work the way that they think they should across a multi-chain environment um and some you know different things like you know you a user should not have to bridge their asset a user should be able to just say I want to swap I want to swap this and I want to swap that and maybe there's some bridging that happens and maybe there's some market makers involved um but that can be all done abstracted away from the user and the user doesn't need to

52. 26:31

    actually know or see they can just be like I have eat I want Bitcoin I have tether I want an ordinal um uh I have an ordinal I want to trade it for a bad kit um you should do that this is such a good point and such a subtle one too that people don't realize like the cake framework has so many different components but like really all chain abstraction is is an expressive permissioning layer right like a the

53. 26:58

    icing on the cake right that makes the entire cake work is an expressive permissioning layer that allows for users to delegate permissions across all of these different environments so I'm I'm hearing kind of I mean the common theme on all of this is like we want to abstract away as much complexity from the users as possible and um in in your cake uh blog post um you wrote crypto users knowing which

54. 27:31

    rollup optimism or base they're interacting with is equivalent to web two users knowing which cloud provider AWS or gcp they are interacting with and um I guess I bring that up because to me I think there's truth in that but then on the flip side of the coin like if we abstract away too much from the users like is do do we there are certain things that the users should know and care about like for example maybe this

55. 27:58

    security or like the risks or the trust assumptions they're making when interacting with these chains and so how do we like where's the balance and how do we for example you know when I sign something saying hey you know make this trade on my behalf or do these things on my behalf um you know how do I know as a user that the you know the the the the protocols that they're going to interact

56. 28:22

    with are actually secure or have some kind of like I don't know base level of of guarantee es that that I'm that I feel safe about like and and doesn't the user need to be informed about these these risks and so how do we balance between those two things well when you go to like gmail.com do you like ask yourself oh is this using like a secure email protocol behind the scenes like no you go to

57. 28:49

    gmail.com because it's an application that you trust that's built by a company that you trust and so you delegate all of the decisions around security to that application and there's no reason for web 3 to be any different right the user is going to go to Applications and like the applications are going to be able to manage the trust that the user put in them to make sure that they make good decisions about the tools that they use behind the scenes I mean even to add like this is already happening right I

58. 29:18

    don't think there is you know a lot of users who actually reading the smart contract code and you know compiling the wallet from source code uh making sure it works right they kind of trust that wallet will do a lot of the security Havey Lifting for them and then uh you know we see you know wallet starting to actually take that more responsibly and and starting to add additional security features right preventing user from uh for example you know trading with malicious contracts and and interacting

59. 29:50

    with other uh kind of not clear origin websites Etc so I think like generally the responsibility of the user is kind of the as Stefan said picking a counterparty that uh they they can trust in and then uh figuring out how to delegate the authority over you know set of assets or set of interactions and then the kind of now from a developer of that for example wallet the thing is like if you now need to maintain you

60. 30:27

    know access to hundreds of rollups uh you know you need to maintain and figure out how to pay gas fees Etc on all of this you know like that's a lot of work and that you know and you can like do maintenance cost kind of like Skyrocket and so creating a protocol that allows to now the wallet itself to kind of delegate that Authority and uh have very clear specific security parameters around execution for example of user intent right that you know it either

61. 30:57

    fails to execute or it executes correctly uh for example for you know doing a trade is extremely important I think one interesting kind of uh just like like idea that uh I like to mention is right now let's say there's a bonk token or whatever new me bold token on base right there those tokens kind of security is defined by that chain it's defined by that rollup and if something happens with that rollup right the kind

62. 31:32

    of social consensus or with that chain social consensus you know they can revive it they can roll back they can restart they can do all of the things and this you know keeps happening now more frequently than than before and so you don't what you definitely don't want is bridging out to maybe even more secure chain like imagine you you send Bon to ethereum but uh you know salana

63. 31:56

    for example rolled back because of whatever reasons now you have inconsistent state right so you do want to actually have the assets where they issued because the security of that asset itself kind of linked to the isan's uh Network and that's one of the kind of you know uh I would say important aspect of chain abstraction is although we abstract the exact routing and and complexity we want to keep the assets where they were where they are and just allow user to have a very easy

64. 32:29

    way to you know specify that they want to uh get something like this without kind of versus current model where user is in a specific chain and now the only way to like make it usable for them is to bring all the assets to that chain and kind of bring everything there and kind of create lots and lots of additional security kind of and uh kind of um counterparties that user is not even aware so I would say kind of the

65. 32:58

    layers here are handling a lot of the security questions so so that users don't have to zi do you have any thoughts on this so I think that you know there's a I think this this basic idea is you know there's reput like there are people who build user phrasing Services um you know and those people you know uh will hopefully find that that they have robust economic incentives um to take

66. 33:40

    care of you know trust and safety throughout their ecosystem and we do see this right like a um you know a lot of pressure on security and interop comes from things like asset issuers like Circle or um or like wallets um who all who often you know have a lot of questions exchanges Etc um you know when they integrate a service they they they ask a lot of questions about security um and so as you know these chain abstraction pieces start coming together and they start getting integrated into

67. 34:13

    you know the metamasks and the trust wallets and the coinbase wallets of the world I think people they're going people those in those places a lot of questions about you know the security of your interrupt protocol Etc um or you know uh uh you know Dows that are choosing what to get what gets integrated into you know front ends of of big user facing apps um all of those places are going to be really good places to ask questions about security um and then you know the worst possible place is to give you know is to is to

68. 34:45

    enter into to a scenario where instead you know you as a user need to figure out which Bridge counter parties are safe um which you know what assets are safe to hold on a DE um and we've just seen you know you know many billions of dollars of user harm um come from the fact that you know users are uh users don't have an have an easy way of reasoning about all of this that's a that's a very good point I mean I think I mean to me the way that

69. 35:16

    the analogy with like web 2 and and Gmail breaks down is just that um in in blockchain and web 3 like there could be potentially a lot of money on the line so I feel like there's just a little bit more um you know it's more necessary to take security seriously than oh you know I don't know someone saw my email that I didn't want them to see I think a lot of people are are less concerned about that

70. 35:41

    than like oh well you know a few thousand vanish from my wallet because you know I just trusted this I don't know this interface that I was using so I think that there's something along those lines where I think it's just slightly not quite I don't think you can map it one to one per se um and but anyway um I was also thinking um about how uh account or just like chain abstraction interacts with value capture

71. 36:13

    um in the stack because kind of what I'm hearing is that uh whether whether it's the goal or not of Chan attraction it does seem to sort of commoditize aspects of the infrastructure uh layer and there therefore makes me think that maybe certain aspects of infrastructure just won't uh you know actually capture as much value as people might think um you know if they were operating in this worldview where you know chains won't be abstracted away

72. 36:44

    from users like if if the if the infrastructure doesn't actually have a you know direct relationship to users then then why should it you know capture capture value in the first place so how how do you guys think about chain attraction impacting value capture go ahead zi so I think the I think it should be relatively obvious that in the long run the most valuable parts of blockchain are the ones that are closest to the sort of

73. 37:26

    order flow generated by the user um you know and you could think of so like you know the most valuable business in well in web 2 was you know Google AdWords what is Google AdWords capturing it's capturing a kind of orderflow right like what what people type in the search bar which is all their wants hopes desires and like some of those orders are really valuable like I'm about to buy a house

74. 37:52

    I'm looking for a divorce lawyer and some of those uh uh orders are uh those uh Search terms are much less valuable like you know how do I make this particular python script work how do I turn on my you know how do I restart my iPhone uh these are so uh and I think web 3 will be a very similar thing where you know if you are closer to uh you know a user's decision about which mcoin to buy um there's a lot more opportunities to extract value and I think if you're uh relatively far away

75. 38:25

    from that I think right now you know there has been a bunch of a network of like chain specific interven Aries that capture a lot of those values like the ethereum me supply chain L2 sequencers um you know RPC providers all of those places have been uh places where you know value is captured um but if we build sort of chain abstracted apps those apps actually are in a very privileged position potentially uh to create capture uh Share value with your

76. 39:00

    users um that this that like you know unfiltered Organic Farm to Table orderflow creates yeah I would add maybe that usually there's kind of a a a smile curve of uh value capture so things that are closest to the user and things that are furest from the user are the ones that capture value and so the closest to users zly said right the the apps the gateways the super apps the platforms um that actually are uh allowing user to interact find discover

77. 39:42

    uh experiences and then the kind of lower stack is the you know the settlement the execution kind of the pieces that are you know storing the value and kind of securing it and ensuring that it's uh kind of consistent and and like moving moving the hardest kind of bits of the of the workflow um and kind of the example in in you know web 2 it's been you know Facebook and Google on the user side and you know Nvidia and uh

78. 40:14

    kind of other uh like hardware and and uh companies that are capturing a lot of the heavyweight um uh part of the part of the value in too Stefan have any thoughts uh no not really I'm I'm much more interested in the value that gets unlocked from having CH abstraction than the value that gets captured like for me web 3 never fulfilled its potential and like I joined this space because I wanted Global coordination mechanisms that made it easier for people trust

79. 40:57

    each other and innovate and like improve the future of humanity um and I think what we have right now is global casino that makes it easier for people to speculate on shitcoins and so I'm much more interested about how do we actually unlock the value and the promise of web 3 and blockchains then how do we actually split the split the pie very fair and and I think we're we're all in agreement with that I just think it's interesting to I think that the way that people extrapolate from today towards to

80. 41:33

    to the endgame um is actually very kind of it it assumes that a lot of the Dynamics that we have today will be present in that endgame and I think um chain abstraction is something that really changes a lot of like the base assumptions that you'd make um and like you know Skip Barry SI Barry from skip skip uh the other day tweet something that was saying like you know day by day it's becoming less important uh where

81. 42:03

    you build uh as as as what you build and I think that's a powerful way to kind of say that um yeah like you know right now it's like oh well what chain are you launching your dap on because that's where liquidity and the users are and all and all that and I think in in in some point in the future like users in liquidity will be so fluid across any chain I mean if if chain abstraction is

82. 42:28

    is successful that um it it will no longer really matter and and kind of everything will be sort of like like as zucky once said the kind of like execution will be or like state will be sort of commodified or very yeah very fluid so anyway I just find that interesting um so uh Stefan I guess uh what you know what is the value that you see getting created by ch abstraction and like would you say that it is sort

83. 43:00

    of like the the mo the most important thing to be working on at this moment in time like from from in terms of like helping crypto reach its full potential oh yeah oh for sure I can I can maybe think of like one other thing which is like how do we prevent like crypto from being taken over by the AI but let's just put that aside um and say that like this is the most exciting time to be working in web 3 by far like no question asked because we have the block space

84. 43:33

    scalability we're able to launch all of these different application specific rollups appliation specific change blah blah blah and actually um create applications that the users don't need to know that they're interfacing with a blockchain because it doesn't cost 200 bucks to be able to do anything um and so if we want that to be the case if we want web 3 applications to be developed we need to solve the user experience

85. 43:59

    problem so that these amazing application developers with like great ideas of social things or gaming things or like all these different use cases that everyone's been chilling but no one's actually used um can take place like we need to solve the the the chain of struction problem so yeah the most important problem the most exciting time to be working in in web 3 yeah I would second that I think I mean as we were all starting like trying to Sol like near started

86. 44:30

    actually trying to use blockchain we wanted to you know use it to pay people for work for data crowdsourcing to trade Ai and the challenge we were facing was exactly this is like the users needed to figure out how to install extensions and you know fund it from a centralized exchange to start earning which is like the the opposite is like you know you come to work and this the first thing

87. 44:55

    they ask you is to pay uh you know so that they actually will uh will pay you the salary so but now we have the tooling we have the infrastructure we have you know met transactions we have the layers we have kind of all the pieces that we need and so now it's time it's actually time I think to build the applications because I think like a lot of the chain of exraction tooling is also here and now it's more about working closely with applications to really deliver that you

88. 45:28

    know and experience and you know fix whatever is not working in the tooling based on that feedback and so yeah I'm inviting everyone to build applications and then you know come to us and like we'll we'll help fix whatever is not working to make sure you're experience it and your user experience is as smooth as humanly possible and better than web 2 in because we can actually deliver like we had applications that used

89. 45:54

    Stripe Right the web to payment processor and switch to near because it's cheaper because it's for microtransactions actually blockchain can be cheaper than VB 2 Solutions and so uh so Payment Solutions and so like we have now the value we have now the infra so yeah let's let's you know I'm I'm encouraging everyone to build apps and you know let's let's bring the now even more users and even more experiences together to the vi

90. 46:25

    three so it also sounds though that like chain abstraction uh kind of hinges on the I mean the word abstraction itself right is about standards um and I think in order to you know have a sort of like coordination layer that you know encompasses all these different chains and and applications there's going to be you know a need for for standards basically to be established and it kind of makes me think of uh and I know you're talking about this sort of the

91. 47:03

    beginning Stefan but um it makes me think about that uh XKCD uh comic where they're like you know situation there are 14 competing standards and then you know these two characters like oh my God there's 14 standards we need to like you know unify them and then then the next frame is oh then now they're 15 competing standards so how I mean I know that I guess that's the goal of of cake is essentially to try to unify everything but it like it just

92. 47:34

    seems I'll one diffic go ahead I I'll add one meme layer you know that Meme of like the minions with grw where it's like the infinite like replicating you know Meme uh it's the same thing with chain abstraction you know we have all these now chain abstraction approaches and the question is like how do we abstract away all the chain abstraction approaches and then how do we abstract away all the chain attration approaches I abtract the way all the chain Abra

93. 47:59

    approaches I abtract the trains and this is like an infinite rabbit hole that we can go down um and so you know this is this is a problem like the way that um capitalism works and the way that like all the different teams that are working on these problems work is they have individual incentives based off of you know being a company having their token having their own Community their

94. 48:22

    own like beliefs of the world and how this problem needs to be solved and so the problem is a coordination problem it's about getting all these people to agree on like use a single uh you know definition of what we actually want to achieve and coordinate around using um a single um I sort of present it as as a as a standard for for permissioning U but really like a single um a single framework um and and the intent behind

95. 48:55

    the cake framework and the cake working group is to provide the venue of conversation between all these different teams to coordinate around uh something that is obviously going to be mutually be beneficial for for everyone involved yeah it's not an easy task um I mean yeah I think maybe to add here right I think I mean standardization is great and you know we all we're all striving for that I think the opportunity here is to

96. 49:29

    create something that's the experience is so much better that people are just flocking to it right that's from my perspective like as a product Builder the when you when we see actual experience that people are you know holy this is smooth right it it solves my problems like that's that's when you know people just shared with friends they you know everybody is piling in and you kind of see this explosion of usage right we had this example with you know a wallet inside Telegram and it grew to

97. 50:01

    like 4 million users in two months and so kind of we need to get to that level of experience and kind of applications that are truly uh easy to use and on board to and they offer all of the flexibility that people want right we have another one which is dab dab which allows to transact across 14 different layer tws uh and uh you know 150 different smart contracts All In one application all in one front end you can see all your Port portfolio across all 14 l2s so those are

98. 50:34

    examples like and again they grew to 75,000 users um like all of those examples are like of something that you can present to a user and start seeing the growth and kind of you can still see like again as I said users will come back and tell you what doesn't work and we need to continue shipping improvements on all that but now as application with truly chain abstract applications we can have this feedback loop and then through that we can then you know feedback that to to standardization and kind of work as a

99. 51:06

    group of you know hey how do we do standardization around intents how do we do standardization around permissioning to make sure that uh you know more and more participants can join and kind of uh provide better user experience to this uh and user products that makes a ton of sense and I don't know I'm kind of getting the impression that um while we all might believe in in sort of like a a a modular uh sort of like chain future it it sounds like chain abstraction leads

100. 51:45

     to sort of like a a monolithic super app interface to all these chains do you think that's this kind of makes it like a winner take all Dynamic um for like whatever whatever this like interface is that that the users all kind of converge on I guess would you would you consider Json RPC API a monolithic super app definitely not I think it's the same thing yeah the only thing I would Al I

101. 52:22

     would add on top of that right is there are always going to be like special properties to different chains right like there will be chains that give you privacy there will be chains that give you uh um that like uh are better you know that have certain assets on it that don't exist in other chains uh there will CH you know change that where your bad kids live uh it this isn't about

102. 52:47

     eliminating what makes every Sovereign modular chain unique and special but what it is is saying is that when you you know build something unique and special you don't have to like boil the ocean attract all of these uh users to your one specific magical you know new uh like chain API in order to like actually show off what is unique and special about your chain ideally it just comes down to you know as an application Builder you have a set of apis you have to imple you implement um that sort of

103. 53:20

     tell a bunch of super apps how to interface with your chain uh and so and now suddenly you just like you know pop up as like another option in the App Store uh and you know as you Market what is unique and special about your chain users are like I can with very low barrier to entry now try that out route liquidity from existing sources into that chain uh take advantage of whatever

104. 53:43

     is unique and special and exciting about your watchet Stefan do you want to elaborate more on the Json RPC Point uh I think zachi covered it well like for this to win it has to be an interface and not a product that gets distributed and the interface needs to be expressive enough such that people can pick the product that they want to use behind it and everyone will have their time in the light right like

105. 54:19

     everyone will have a fair shot at building the best component of the cake that is the most used um and there will be winners and there will be losers but as a whole we only win if we are able to coordinate around a new interface so not not to bring things back to Value capture uh that's a that's a dirty word but um it's you know something that zucky mentioned sort of at the beginning of this was um you know

106. 54:54

     he he said we can have our cake and E A two but depends on essentially like me like the me tooling or I can't remember specifically what you said but you were saying something about me playing an important role and whether or not these systems can can work and live up to their promise and so I'm curious like what what that is because um it sounds like a a pretty important thing to consider when when designing these things if if if we don't you know I mean

107. 55:24

     me it seems like something that's just totally inevitable and kind of like just inherent in blockchains um and so if we don't solve that aspect of this then you know maybe chain chain of exraction won't actually unlock the value right that Stefon was talking about oh I love this question I want to dive deep on this with Zaki actually like what's the role of Me In Chain obstruction I think that there's a bunch of different answers to that question right one is you know sort of cross domain cross

108. 55:59

     chain like the fact that a user is originating some part of a value flow on one chain and uh ending up with value flow on another chain uh you know this creates so you know I think like one of the reasons why so many people who are working on chain abstraction have spent time working in the me space is what you discover in the Meb space is that there's uh this giant Workforce of very very sophisticated economic actors that

109. 56:34

     use blockchains in a way that no ordinary user ever would right that they you know are you know keeping track of the variation between onchain prices and centralized exchange prices you know on the order of milliseconds um that they're picking you know helping pick you know what are the most profitable transactions to improve um and so then the question is you're like oh like these people exist well okay right now they're doing something that maybe not super valued you know not create a lot

110. 57:04

     of economic surplus for the ecosystem but what if they could what if what if all of these sophisticated actors that are out there could actually be you know sort of lubricating the paths between different users and so like you you know you then start saying oh like what if we What If instead of having a user interact with the bridge they interact with an intense framework and the and you know a sophisticated actor uses the bridge to bridge liquidity under the hood but the user

111. 57:35

     doesn't have to agree with it and you you you might get something that looks like a cross protocol um what if uh uh you know what if instead of having to you know have a separate account on every other chain you could originate your intense and there will be a network of reers um that you know broadcast your transaction and execute them on variety of different chains and maybe pay for your gas because they're capturing Meb

112. 58:00

     along the way um you know they're capturing some value from that order flow um you know this this is a question of you know it it is this question that like is like can we recruit this network of of of super sophisticated users of blockchains into sort of value creating user assisting agents rather than pure value extractors am man yeah I would agree I think that kind of transitioning away from people pretty much parasiting on kind of the order

113. 58:40

     like because uh they're like intercepting the transaction and transitioning more to the user tells that they want to achieve this action and somebody goes and figures out the most optimal way to do it and gets kind of a a piece of that I mean that's that was the idea behind for example Robin Hood right which drops all the dropped all the trading fees for the end user because they figured out how to uh

114. 59:06

     pretty much kind of sell the orderflow to even more sophisticated actors on the other side but offering like way better experience to the end user and so I think like similar thing will start happening here uh where actually the fees for the user will go down because a more and more sophisticated approaches will be developed and similar things like cow Swap and other existing kind of intent based swaps right but you know you can expand that Beyond just uh pure

115. 59:38

     uh transactions yeah I remember a while ago uh talking about intense with with yucki and you were saying how intents can uh turn toxic order flow into sort of like I don't know something something a lot more positive and incentive aligned and not not extractive but actually um you know yeah like like a positive thing for for the end user and so I think there's a a lot of Truth in that um and it makes

116. 1:00:11

     me optimistic I want to um go ahead I want to ask the why the how question how so I think there is this potential for um intermediaries to add value to end users but the kind of entire history of blockchain is to try to cut out these intermediaries that try to add value to users in trfy so the question is how how is adding these intermediaries in web 3 going to be different than adding these intermediaries in web

117. 1:00:50

     two well I think it from my perspective it's the like in general for me web 3 is the ability to kind of switch between providers at any level of the stack without uh much switching cost or ideally zero switching cost be that you know I can switch between rpcs I can switch between wallets you know block produ you can switch between block producers and so similarly here you know being able to switch between like who is your solver who provides you with the

118. 1:01:21

     kind of best execution flow compared to you know like traditionally you go to Charles Schwab for example and only Charles Schwab is executing your orders right and they can charge whatever they want right you don't actually like open it up to open market and then getting the best trade uh so I think that's really the like you know we we're moving away from this W Gardens which are

119. 1:01:45

     prevalent in traditional Finance where you need to interact with like a specific counterparty uh they will you know kyc you they'll enable you to transact and then in turn they can charge what the fee and you don't want to go and like shop around in other tools because it's so complicated and cumbersome um that there's no like Market pressure as well one of the are we really headed in a different direction though with web

120. 1:02:11

     3 I'm not convinced I have this okay so one of the things that was so there was like a a time in my life where I was selling blockchains to Banks um uh and and I'm sorry well it it got me to the learning opportunity yeah it it finally got me to the to a conviction around why Banks were never going to adopt blockchains and not in the way not in the private blockchain ways that they did you know they might be forced into it by market forces uh and you know if they were

121. 1:02:49

     forced into it it would be some version of interoperable with public chain infrastructure but like why is that um you know in you know the biggest source of power that all the IM intermediaries have in trafi is that you can't see the system of record and and you know that's also true in web too right like you don't have like your email that exists in Gmail exists in this you know Google spanner database that you have no ability to access the underlying data um

122. 1:03:22

     and you know if you own stock you know in sitting in your Fidelity account or your Schwab account like you don't have any independent access to that system of record it's entirely so when you know when you have a Fidelity account or a Schwab account it Ops you you you monolithically consume a whole bunch of other services associated with that around how orders are executed and traded you know you you have to sort of

123. 1:03:48

     go through that their their chosen things because you don't have access to the underlying system of record and no one and new you know someone new has to cannot easily spin up that they have to kind of build everything from Scrat rebuild everything from scratch and I do think that this concept uh that cryptocurrency has of you know these open publicly readable publicly writable

124. 1:04:12

     ledgers act as a pretty significant bullwark against enshrining any sort of intermediaries in the system yes there will be periods of time when intermediaries become dominant when you know someone is 10 or 100x better than everyone else in the market um but your ability to sort of create huge barriers is actually a lot harder in web 3 and I think that is you know fundamental and structural um and I do think that is the reason why it's worth building these

125. 1:04:46

     systems that sort of migrate people from trafi to web legibility legibility of the legibility gets you a lot yeah legibility gets you a lot um it is it is an incredibly powerful property do you think that remains as we shift to more and more orchestration offchain like where the Fulfillment is happening in these like other layers where there's these dark pools with all the market makers are fulfilling these intents and these rfqs do we keep legibility

126. 1:05:27

     well we should have more in like the intend order book should be on chain that that allows to have a lot more legibility and a lot of competition because yeah if you keep it off chain then whoever you know whichever server you send it to now is able to pretty much front run it or you know censor it or do whatever they want with it and so one thing I realize and come to to learn about these M systems is there's a fundamental tension between

127. 1:05:57

     protecting the user and making the system legible um so when we talk about protecting the the user we talk about like front running protection right like avoiding leaking data that the user creates uh two counterparties that have an asymmetric advantage in in using that data um but that sort of is a fundamental tension with making the system legible to anyone to be able to sort of audit and see what's happening yeah I mean I think like everything is solvable with enough you

128. 1:06:29

     know cryptography and uh kind of and and desire to do that right it's it's just this the simpler solution right like hey we'll just post the transactions into a share at B2B Network and it's going to be fine that is uh you know where like yes now it's it's easy to front run it right then you can have okay well well we'll encrypt the transaction and then you need to have a group to decrypt it and now you already have predetermined order or you

129. 1:07:00

     can have other post conditions but like you you need to do more work pretty much and add extra complexity to have some of this user protecting privacy and uh kind of protections and I think the CH the challenges is uh like it requires extra work it requires extra maintenance and so like it needs to be worth it right and I think early on in the blockchain space it just wasn't worth it as we getting more and more kind of economy shifted you know into this I think it

130. 1:07:35

     will become pretty fundamental that we need to roll all of this out do we have that magic cryptography stuff already yeah I mean you can have threshold signatures to decrypt for example uh like encrypted mle transactions uh you get have you can have the delay function where the sequencer commits to uh to order before they can start uh pretty much un like unrolling the uh the time log you can have ZK for privacy for

131. 1:08:17

     example you only post that uh you're going to pay the transaction fee to the relayer and then but relayer doesn't know who you are and just relat your transactions on other chains so there's a disconnect between your core root account and your kind of remote accounts through chain signatures so you you like we can have all of this kind of pieces added it just like they're not the default right now um and so the kind of it's important

132. 1:08:47

     for us to start thinking about it and adding and rolling this out but I agree with you that like there's a general you know let's just let's just get something out that's El legible or let's you know roll something out that's controlled by a single party which is always a better experience in the beginning than decentralized option uh and so so there is like a kind of like a hill you need to climb from both sides right that's like a decentralized legible but not user protecting and there is a centralized user protecting

133. 1:09:22

     but then ends up being not legible and so climbing the hill is really important makes sense so we've covered a lot um already um I'm curious if you guys have any sort of like big picture takeaways or any topics that you wanted to touch on before we uh start to sort of close things up well I mean just as a minute of shell right we rolled out change signatures it's it's developer ready so we invite as I mentioned we invite everyone to start building applications that are chain abstracted you know you can have

134. 1:10:10

     one account that kind of transact across all chains and uh the benefit is we can kind of bring you know a bunch of users across all the core near applications to start interacting with that and so I'm really excited to see more real apps launching that are able to uh work across different chains and being able to benefit from you know all of this blog space and Technology that's been built and then in turn uh you know bringing more and more users who are not

135. 1:10:41

     limited by you know any single blockchain right not limiting the applications target audience as well in in return so if you're a builder you know you know where to find us so I actually had a question about that product IIA which is um so the way I understand it is it's sort of like there's a committee that holds all the the shards of of your uh account essentially and there's like an NPC

136. 1:11:13

     process that they carry out to sign transactions on your behalf on other chains but then if they I mean essentially it's sort of like they they uh that committee or valid validator set has sort of like custody of your funds more or less so is there there's sort of like an economic there's like a threshold of how much funds can safely be like custody by that committee is that the right way to think about it or is there like a different security model yeah yeah no that's the right way

137. 1:11:44

     to think about it and uh yeah there's a threshold um so that I mean it starts right now with a smaller committee uh but the idea is to scale this committee through the whole near valat set and also we're already partnering with zigen Lair to include some of the uh kind of ethereum validators who are reaking as well to include in set so the idea is to have kind of you know near staking security and you know part of ethereum stake security and you know whoever else

138. 1:12:14

     we can R into this to continue increasing the maximum kind of Economic Security of this of the system okay very cool nice yeah to RI on this more go ahead yeah go forward what um maybe there a question for both both Zaki Ando i' love to hear zaki's take on this what properties does a universal permissioning um system like policy system that's compatible with accounts across multiple different sort of semantic environments need to have how

139. 1:12:52

     do we actually get to this I see oncap on the cake what does that you know what are the requirements for it I mean I can start from my no go ahead no no go ahead everybody's polite um I mean from my perspective like it's really important to have the account kind of level system that allows you to manage your account effectively so because like whatever permissioning you're allowed to do do like if you

140. 1:13:25

     cannot secure your account you cannot have kind of um like ideally better security than VB 2 right and web two has very standard like second Factor it has very standard like active transaction monitoring and other uh kind of standard security features like we need that and then from there I think there will be need a lot as well as you delegate kind of the various like you know if you're using some OFA if you using some other agents that are doing things on your behalf like how to guarantee security

141. 1:13:59

     there how to ensure that and again this is from perspective of wallets or apps that are actually using this right because you at the end user will not be able to like manually inspect how all of this working so it's more how does wallet ensure that everything is coherent and working and uh you know make sure that account is secure make sure that user is not you know being uh kind of interfacing with a fake application fake frontend fake something right so there's a lot of components that needs to go into this to really

142. 1:14:32

     provide kind of heightened security level while not hindering the user experience so I think there's a couple of elements that I think a lot about here one is so interoperability sort of rears its head again um in these places right you know having a really really secure account management system but having insecure ways for that account management system to then reach out uh and interoperate

143. 1:15:05

     with you know where you want you know transactions to be executed value to be settled all of those things um it's not really you know it it it it we can we're in a state where we can make I think we we can be like in the early days of account of chain abstraction we can we can cast a why net about you know what interoperability systems are acceptable um I do think you know we are still in the very much in that rapid prototyping State and like but in the long run I want to see I want you you want you know

144. 1:15:37

     there's a lot of power to converging more and more interop to around Zer knowledge um and you know white clients and like you know other forms of like very robust sort of uh storage proofs um very robust systems I think also this idea you know that comes uh comes from you know our friends at a goric about you know being able to have like convenient ways of dealing with asynchron um are also a big part of the the API that we are going to need to provide for developers right you know

145. 1:16:09

     the you know in the non-account abstracted world or in the non-chain abstracted world sure you might have uh sort of synchronous execution with one chain uh but it is really really nice to be able to just sign one you know to to click one button or sign one transaction and have a whole asynchronous uh sequence of events um uh you know happen where you know you uh swap an you know you swap an asset uh you know the asset gets stake the asset gets bridged all of

146. 1:16:40

     these things happen um with relatively small numbers of user interactions um and so I I do think like asynchrony is also going to be a big part of uh of making of making this sort of chain abstracted world come together cuz right now you know in the non chain abstracted world what we do is we force the user to handle the asynchrony you know we'll we'll give them a tab that'll like you know send them a notification that it

147. 1:17:03

     now you know that like you know part two of your swap is now ready to go um while you like you know you know go back to you know browsing Instagram uh while you wait uh but that's like not really going to work like we do we need to be able to like users need to be able to confidently say hey I signed this thing maybe it will take some time to be executed securely um but and you know but either you know

148. 1:17:28

     the I will get the price that I expected I will get the assets that I expected or like you know my money will end up in some sane place um uh and I don't have to like monitor every step uh along the way uh it does you know sometimes cross chain uh interactions like you know you know you you're like oh I need to like move my E from uh optimism to arbitrum you know it's like oh I will now wait a

149. 1:17:54

     week and then remember to come back then move my a uh to the arbitra bridge uh that's kind of a ridiculous idea even if people wanted to if that ends up being you know people aren't going to use some sort of intent based system to move that do those moves like we need to be able to be able to like say no what you started this process and now this agent will just you know keep moving the process along until you get to your

150. 1:18:19

     destination when um when you talk about um safety or like security here you mean well let me just say what I understood by it and you can correct me if I'm wrong um what I understood by it is basically having in this asynchronous environment with multiple execution uh zones that have various different trust assumptions you want to be able to essentially have a bundle of transactions that executes on multiple chains in a certain order and have

151. 1:18:51

     atomicity guarantees across this bundle such that individual transactions are all fill or kill together with the the bundle as a whole um so either you execute all or you don't execute any um and that's you know that's something I would sort of call bundle safety um is that what you have in mind I don't know like bundle safety is certainly a nice property it's a it's a it's a hard property to guarantee under all possible circumstances um it's

152. 1:19:25

     generally like what I think we want the these systems to be able to guarantee on like in the common case uh and then like in the in the failure mode you know you want to like you want your money to end up back in Stables or something like that um you know if you and like on a chain that you recognize rather than you know in some random corner of web three yeah in some random corner of web 3 and

153. 1:19:48

     some asset that you've never heard of before um and that does that does require a very powerful EXP system interesting um are permissions sort of in this model do they need to be sort of arbitrary programs that like the applications have to sort of come up with or can it be sort of um yeah can it be some subset of of just arbitrary programming but I mean arbitary programs allow you to you know specify anything you want so like I I don't think you gain much from

154. 1:20:28

     having a subset I mean Simplicity perhaps uh less bugs these kinds of things well we need we need to get better at uh building verifiable software we'll have a helping us with that so good so good um okay well guys we're we're coming up on the the end of our uh hour and a half here um so I'm wondering if you guys have any um I don't know takeaways or um I don't know big picture uh thoughts that you

155. 1:21:11

     wanted to uh end end with uh for for the audience build apps what you build is more important than where you build it I think that that you as you mentioned it that's that's probably the main main idea here that's a good tagline doy you have anything I'm happy to close it off oh maybe Z's want to into his speaker problem again I think the way I'll close it off is um if we want to have our cake and eat it too we need

156. 1:21:57

     to um figure out what the icing on the cake is we need to figure out what flavor it is and uh once we do that then uh then we can actually progress yeah I would I will just I think that there's a big opportunity um to build some new user experiences with these chain abstraction tools um that can be that will be you know very exciting and compelling you know I do think that like you know there

157. 1:22:29

     there is the the moment of the chain abstracted mecoin uh is coming uh you know I'm not entirely bearish on the mem coin casino I just I just want the mcoin casinos uh to be used to build things that like will matter in the long run um and so I I do I do think that this you know I do think that like we we're you know there will be there's this is a good time to get some MVP applications out uh out and try and attract users and try and give them an experience that they haven't had

158. 1:23:03

     before so the first breakout uh use case of chain abstraction is going to be a chain abstracted meme coin do I have you on record saying that now Zaki absolutely what else could it be someone's goingon to do it then so um Stefan if people wanted to get involved in you know helping with the icing on the cake um where you know how do they get involved like what's what's the what is the the cake committee uh

159. 1:23:42

     doing and um when's the next sort of like I don't know conversation yeah great question so a cake working group um the best way to join is go to frontier. te and there's this section that says contribute and then we have sort of the cake working group Manifesto and all the members and in the application form to join um we organize sort of recurring uh workshops meeting I think right now we're about about once a month but we might increase

160. 1:24:13

     the frequency and we're driving towards um proposing some of these standards um and more importantly reflecting all the requirements that the various teams have so that we can have some common language to speak about the um the components of of the cake um and so anyone who's building anything that uses the Json RPC API should consider joining because that's the that's the Beast that we're trying to to wrestle

161. 1:24:46

     with great awesome well uh thank you guys all for for joining and um for a really interesting discussion about chain abstraction and um I think there's going to be a lot to to follow in this space I I would agree that I think now that it feels that so many of the infrastructure problems are not solved but the solutions are at least known um this this problem of chain abstraction is becoming quickly becoming the most

162. 1:25:14

     interesting and important uh area of of research and development so um really glad that we could uh have you guys on to share everything all your thoughts and I'm looking forward to following what all gets built so thanks again thank you see you thanks