Chain Abstraction Unveiled w/ Zaki Manian & Illia Polosukhin

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1. 0:00

   hey uh zaky Manion been working in the blockchain space for nearly a decade uh worked on a lot of different projects um I'm most famous for helping launch the cosmos ecosystem uh I co-founded with my uh co-founder on of both inclusion which is like the infrastructure business and uh similer uh with Christy Bolston uh and we did all we've done all of this work uh similer you could think of is relevant to this question because it's kind of the 2021 version of what chain

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   abstraction was um uh sort of a prototype of this world that uh we IL and I have been talking about um worked on IBC worked on a lot of different bridging protocols um and uh yeah I'm excited to be uh talking to the near Community about where I think um like a whole what I think it's going to be like the next big uh sort of industrywide uh sort of meta narrative um uh coming after sort of the the fast monolithic

3. 1:09

   blockchains and the uh like sort of modular explosion awesome well thanks for coming Amelia I think uh you need to disable your sound okay hold on probably yeah um so yeah I'm IAM co-founder of near and uh yeah we kind of from the beginning been really focused on how do we really make it easy for people to use blockchain um kind of the strong belief is that as a user I want to get value I

4. 1:58

   want to have an you know all the Economic Opportunity that blockchain provides sovereignty security but at the same time I you know don't really care about the specific infrastructure decisions um that uh different chains are taking you know different wallets as well as uh kind of the complexity that you know a lot of blockchains have introduced and so for us we've really kind of from the start try to abstract blockchain as much as

5. 2:27

   possible um kind of height complexity as well as uh as we've been thinking about how does kind of this multichain world looks like uh it pretty naturally meant that you know we can continue expanding our kind of offering to multichain World while still preserving the Simplicity that we've been trying to introduce and so actually we had a uh podcast with Zaki in 2020 that I just

6. 3:00

   released today um where we were it was a debate format of if if there are going to be only few chains or lots of chains and uh I mean there's a lot of interesting uh aspects there but obviously we we see a world with a lot of chains um but to me the kind of enabler enabling Factor has been the ZK that kind of enables uh really unified security uh for chains and so you don't need to spin up like a new validator set new blockchain to get your own kind of

7. 3:39

   environment and I think maybe we can start there because I mean there's a lot of pieces of kind of this chain abstraction uh that coming together but I'm actually curious yeah how how you think about it given kind of cosos started in very different place right of like okay everybody should start their own uh chain with their own Val dator set and then you know you kind of also

8. 4:03

   started exploring some of the secured unification um yeah so I'm curious how you think about the zaching well I think I think it's been clear to me at least that the end State you muted uh on Spaces too many devices uh okay so it's been clear to me from the beginning that the or okay so I remember um like very very early on in my uh sort of blockchain Journey um uh iron and Ellie came uh and presented at my tiny little

9. 4:42

   Meetup um in uh Mountain View uh the zerocash paper um which eventually became uh the basis for zcash um and it was like the first Public Presentation uh outside of like MIT and um uh Israel about uh uh uh outside of MIT and Tech neon of like snarks um and it was like okay this is like complete magic and Witchcraft like how is it this possible that like you can get these like succinct proofs of arbitrary execution so then it was like okay how long will it take before you can have these

10. 5:20

    succinct Pro proofs so you know at that point you know this is like 2013 uh you know Z zero knowledge was like almost was you know started in the 80s it it it took 30 years to get from um from like the I from like the original like PCP theorem papers to like uh zero to like the zero cach paper and we're like okay another 30 years to get to like uh uh you know fully programmable suly verifiable um proof carrying Data

11. 5:52

    Systems like what we like okay and that was the expectation um and then zcash launched and then it zcash launched in you know 2015 and it Unleashed this giant torrent of innovation uh and here we are like it seem like we have like expressive proof systems expressive languages uh provs are getting more efficient all the time and like ZK just completely reframes the world of and so I do think of like the cosmos design as

12. 6:25

    you know doing the best you could um with SA ifying people's desires for sovereignty and interoperability um uh with a technology of like uh consensus protocols and consensus protocols with effective light clients um and you still there uh uh you know there are there are still use cases for consensus protocols and committees aren't going away um but the security properties of the system and like what

13. 6:56

    your committee is guaranteeing you go down dramatically when you add proofs on top of it so like the future of interop is like a system that like direct like deeply relies on uh zero knowledge um and in general that's like the end state of blockchains in general it's the most secure censorship resistant system is a system where like you know like if you want to have a system of financial markets and there's a financial Market that can be spun up basically on any

14. 7:26

    computer anywhere in the world but provide really like strong guarantees against corruptibility uh and can interoperate with any other Market anywhere in the world you've basically created like this like kind of extremely censorship resistant extremely uh like you know cockroach like unkillable Financial system uh so I think that's like you know that system essentially like the Prototype of that system now

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    exists today um a lot of people have done a lot of work to make that system possible uh and I think once you have imagined the base layer of that system which is like there's some interoperability protocol there's some proving proed system uh like there are some languages for building applic for building like economic Primitives like we've kind of we're like we've spe we we've been speedr running to the end

16. 8:13

    State uh of that and now it's a question of what comes later yeah exactly I think that this was very interesting to see kind of last year right as we had modularity really taking shape kind of seeing a lot of folks kind of experimenting so there's a really you know somewhat snarky uh tweet from uh mert about you know like if you if you list all the possible options of all the you know execution da kind of sequencer VMS

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    Etc uh you get like you know a thousand different rollups uh and probably like there probably some combination of things that would be more preferred but even on top of it right there's uh with roll up to the service you can spin up another 10,000 of these um and so we have this kind of Highly modular highly fragmented world and we obviously still have a ton of blockchains you know layer ones um app chains uh in Cosmos and so so now the question is

18. 9:22

    okay now what right now there's like this vast uh amount of block space you know this blocks have been produced everywhere all the time and uh as a user now you know I have like I have one metamask that has so many networks in it that you need to scroll um I have a lot of different windows with different wallets uh uh in different browsers and so so we have this highly fragmented environment and then on the other side as a user uh sorry as a

19. 9:52

    developer when you're building your app you're only targeting whatever's audience is on that chain right you have a very limited kind of addressable Market uh and so now you are pretty much looking for additional help from the chain itself to grow it uh addressable Mark kind of its own user base to even be able to interact with them and so so this kind of what uh you know something that like from our side near near is

20. 10:23

    designed internally has a lot of chains right but we abstract this out we don't like use you as a user don't need to think that like every account is actually a separate chain like you just you know transact and all the cross-chain interactions kind of hidden uh to use just an account of the system and so the question is like can we get to a level of similar experience across the vast uh multi-chain

21. 10:49

    environment uh and like what are the pieces that are needed to really pull it all together so one thing that I I think is the case with near and other blockchains that I think are going to be doing this chain abstraction thing like agoric and anoma Etc is that like these things were like designed correctly from like like with like a correct set of abstractions like from the get-go it's that um you know like the current like the current theory

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    of how everything goes to market right now is like you uh uh uh like you launch your new thing whether it's uh a a monolithic L1 L2 Cosmos chain whatever um you set off a speculative frenzy of of like new asset issuance and meme coins uh and nfts um you have some set of economic Primitives for like trading and exchanging those things that onboards users and then like you achieve some critical mass under which you you know there's like a sufficient total addressable market in terms of both TBL

23. 12:03

    and users that like your uh uh system but like if there are thousands of possibilities of of uh of uh thousands of possibilities of like chain da execution environment Etc like this pattern cannot repeat itself forever um and this is like not this this is not how I think so like these like systems that I think may not have been like are not re like systems that like have been built with this like vision of okay like every account is its own with like asynchronous locality of state that can

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    like reach out um across a multi-chain environment from your account um uh that's hosted somewhere like create effects across multiple blockchains like these things are like properly designed um in and they're properly designed for that world that comes after like this sort of repeated pattern of like speculation TBL accumulation like trying to break through one of the other problems right is that like that I've always that was like a

25. 13:16

    real challenge for for crypto is that like people who respond like very positively to like number go up yield like uh like this thing will go to zero THX like playing PVP games in like liquidity pools like this is a relatively small population in the world's consumer base um right like this isn't this is not the user base of Facebook or Instagram or Gmail like yes there is demand for like payments is a widely demanded thing identity is a long like loyalty programs are wideway de

26. 13:55

    things like so there are lots of things that we do in in crypto that are like have very large tbls but if our bootstrapping is like attract roughly the same population of like um volatility attracted people like there's this continuous Gap that we're trying to like Bridge across um uh and where you're and the one where you're trying to LEAP from okay I've attracted all like if let's say you've succeeded you've attracted all of these like people who are attracted to volatility to your chain cool now how do I get them

27. 14:27

    to do things other than just speculate on mean yeah I think that that's a valid point that I mean there's kind of different sub audiances that we have and the sub ordiance of kind of speculators right is very important for crypto but at the same time it it doesn't provide a very clear path from kind of how to how to bridge the gap right uh to kind of more early majority that actually going to be using using this kind of not for

28. 15:01

    speculation but for their day-to-day use cases so what we've seen on near right and we have we actually just recorded I think alltime high of you of uh daily active accounts was over 1.8 million um is that if you remove the need for the users to know about the blockchain right if the application um is designed in such a way that it's extremely straightforward right you can get

29. 15:33

    to kind of almost educate the users on what are different benefits are as you're kind of introducing more and more features to them in a way that you know is interesting and and engaging for them right so we have sweatcoin and custos which are have completely hidden blockchain from their users right I think like there is a way to find that you have an address and and you can like

30. 15:57

    even find how to Bridge tokens to other chains and stuff but it's not like in your face right you just have an app you're interacting with it uh and kind of all the interactions are uh within that app and that's kind of the inspiration in many ways right is like how do we get that experience but really working across uh all of the blockchains uh and in a way transparently uh kind of remove you know need to know about transaction fees about you know specific gas tokens

31. 16:31

    bridging kind of all of the pieces of experience that are really just an implementation detail of kind of our specific you know um approach to to you know securing and transacting on blockchains so I know I mean c has been working on a lot of the pieces for a while uh We've started also kind of over a year now building out some of the pieces of the stack so I think the biggest kind of enabler for this is what

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    we call account aggregation and you guys have as interchain accounts is this ability for a single account to really transact across many chains so I'm curious yeah maybe if you can expand like uh on the history of interchain accounts as well as how you see this evolving kind of from different directions yeah okay so um initially IBC W so the the history of IBC was initially like what was proposed in the white paper was we would launch a token transfer protocol and then build a

33. 17:43

    generalized system um what ended up actually happening is we built a generalized system and then layered a token transfer protocol uh on top of um the token transfer protocol was successful um um as uh as a system of um uh the token transfer protocol was extremely successful um as like for building like basically dexes on top of it um like token swaps all the stuff uh asmosis you know um the token transfer protocol on IBC does billions of dollars of volume a month um it's like one of

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    the one of the brid biggest uh uh bridging and interoperability protocols um but then we came up you know but like shortly after there was this idea of what if we made it so that um uh so standard user accounts or something that looks a lot like a standard user account on a cosmos chain um could be controlled so basically any transaction that could be sent by that user account could sent be passed over

35. 18:51

    IBC and I want to say like interchain accounts like the initial version of it shipped probably probably in 2022 it's like been live for a long long time um and the primary adoption of interchain accounts initially was it turned out that all like basically um liquid staking protocols in Cosmos decided to build on top of interchain accounts so the basic idea is is you launch a blockchain and that blockchain

36. 19:24

    uh uh would have that blockchain has you want a blockchain that blockchain has uh has uh takes like atoms it's it opens an interchain account it Stakes those atoms earning staking rewards and like uh uh uh and then like compounding those staking rewards and then it gives you a fungible token that can is like redeemable for that and um you know a lot of other parts and it wasn't like entirely obvious that this would become dominant but like the dominant liquid staking protocols now in Cosmos um all

37. 20:02

    use this interchain account system but interchain accounts can be used for a lot more um you could have uh uh like onchain governance or Dows could control accounts um on other chains uh and that kind of stuff but like user like UI ux so like I think we're like you know we're probably about two years into like the interchain accounts protocol and there's finally a UI for like a dow on one chain in Cosmos to control an

38. 20:33

    account on another uh chain in Cosmos um which you know is a is to a certain extent a result of the chaotic nature of Cosmos it's also an extent to which all of these things take a long time and are early um but and then like another uh uh sort of related system that like is sort of in the like wider Cosmos ecosystem is thorchain and the way Thor chain works is really is also very interesting in

39. 21:01

    the sense of there are like Thor chain does not use is built on as a cosmos chain but it and it's a multi-chain DEX but it doesn't have IBC uh instead what it has is escrow accounts um on all of the different chains it supports um most notably Bitcoin and then so like if you want to do a swap um you you send your funds to the S2 escro accounts um controlled by the validator set of both

40. 21:26

    chains those validator sets then like see that this all the funds have been received and then like execute the other sides of the swap um so like you could send Bitcoin to an escrow account that escrow account then said and you say I want to buy tether um then you know tether on let's say ethereum or Tron um gets sent to an escrow account um and then the chain sees that those things

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    are it has custody of both funds and then sends the Bitcoin to whoever's supposed to receive it and the tether to whoever supposed to receive it uh so like we have these like early chain abstracted apps um and we could talk more about how simila is also in this pattern but I think those are really good examples of like things that are practically doing like uh thorchain is doing like 1% of Bitcoin spot volume

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    roughly right now which is just huge um and uh you know interchain accounts for liquid staking on Cosmos um do are custody hundreds of millions of dollars or tens of millions of dollars so these are all big successes for these nice yeah I mean I think this is really kind of paved the way to show how this work I think for me one one of the important things have always been that the bridges on themselves are um sadly a the the the

43. 22:47

    least robust part of the blockchains right because they kind of they try to unite security of two sides and and you know as we talked in the beginning the security part is is getting um you know in some way more unified but still kind of they require a lot of Maintenance they require kind of synchronization and so I think one of the things that we are pushing is what we call on bridging and so in in in a similar way that Thor chain for example uh the chain itself

44. 23:19

    has accounts on on uh on different other chains is this ability to have can of for any account on near to have kind of remote accounts everywhere else and being able to transact with them without needing to Bridge and so kind of as part of this I wanted to uh invite Kendall to kind of who works a lot uh more closely with all this uh to kind of speak about some of the use cases that uh uh he sees as well as like people already building

45. 23:56

    out um yeah so I the way I see it there's like two kind of different audiences here that are like kind of appealed can eventually be appealed to by whether it's interchain accounts or like kind of the near multi-chain accounts there's the the crypto native audience who is very different in that a lot of times they they actually really care or want to know about what chain they're on and then you have like normal people or institutions or whatever it might be

46. 24:37

    more like the normies who actually are just trying to solve some kind of problem or like actually want you know as much of what chain they're on or or where their assets are whatever it is to be abstracted away as possible um I think the yeah the the for the crypto native audience the the areas we're really excited about are basically just there's like a couple of important things to B basically abstract away you know one is or or at least simplify one

47. 25:00

    is just getting your assets between chains and in the cosmos World IBC does a really great job of that um but in the non-c cosmos World which is a lot of you know a lot of chains that people want to interact with the solutions are are pretty messy like at the very least you have to kind of navigate the world of bridge trade-offs and while there's plenty of great teams there like that is complicated and then even if you find a bridge to get your assets across you have to kind of f figure out how you're

48. 25:24

    going to pay for gas and I think there's a lot of teams trying to solve that problem but it's still quite messy um and then the other problem you have is that like almost zero Bridges go everywhere right um because it's obviously quite complex to even add you know any sort of new chain to this sort of mix outside of the IBC World um and so I think that there's some yeah the thorchain I think actually has done a really good job of at least showing uh

49. 25:48

    the potential for you know using threshold signing for these um for these uh kind of deposit accounts um but we're very excited about doing is expanding that even further to like the user account level um and I think that opens up a lot of opportunities both on the Normy side where like you actually now can have an account that can sign for any chain like any chain that's elliptic curve is supported which you know can is actually fairly straightforward at least

50. 26:13

    to to add over time um you can sign for uh and then what gets really interesting is you can also like make these accounts smart contracts that are immutable and then you can build protocols on top of it so you can then have protocols that can actually control assets um on various different chains now where things get complicated is uh you know Thor chain obviously to add support for these new chains they basically need their validators to run full nodes uh

51. 26:37

    which does create some kind of scaling challenges there at least like some you know there's a lot of implementation work to add Spar for new chains uh so we're actually pretty excited about the potential to build protocols accepting the design constraint of the fact that you that the near chain in this case would have no idea of like essentially which account like the value of the accounts that it's signing for and um but there's some interesting ways to still kind of design some cross chain swaps with this or even lending

52. 27:02

    protocols with this um or you know even I think you another great design space is kind of bringing smart contract functionality to chains that don't have it whether that's Bitcoin um or you know even Adam I think it's been really cool to see the uh inscriptions protocol that's taken off on Adam obviously a lot of great ways to use IBC there but I think uh there's some fun stuff that we'll be exploring building there too to just like bring programmability to these

53. 27:25

    kind of chains that don't have a smart contract layer buity yeah I think one of the really interesting examples uh is kind of using the nearest um kind of account obstruction native account obstruction that we have is because if you have this uh kind of addresses link to your account and let's say you have you know some Bitcoins some ordinals some atoms some you know madlad nft you kind of all linked to one near

54. 27:59

    account you can actually sell like that near account turn it into nft and list it on the marketplace and do all that at kind of a speed of near in you know Atomic uh or semi- Atomic approach without needing to kind of transact across all the blockchains involved in this transition so I think this is one of the kind of those interesting cases where by abstracting this out right you actually kind of creating this new level at which people can transact without

55. 28:31

    needing to think about individual um kind of assets and chains and uh transacting there and in turn this allows to have kind of this new level of programmability as well uh for developers so maybe kind of uh Switching gears the I mean there's like a you know use case where as you know some of the apps like uh CMOS you know getting hundreds of millions of users they transacting across all of this I think

56. 29:02

    question is like how do we bring the kind of most developers to this concept like how do we educate them that this is really important versus kind of the current approach where people pick one chain and and kind of focus on it I know Zach you have been kind of talking about some of this before um so curious uh kind of to voice your opinion so I guess the question in my mind is

57. 29:33

    really whether or not any of these like I think like one of the bigger points is that like very few applications that represent like a full endtoend user workflow exist today and in the modern world no application that like does a full endend user workflow is going to be like truly single chain um there are like I think like but like I think the idea is but like the other side of that is is that these tribes are never going to go away there's going to be like there's going to be an adom tribe there's going to be a soul tribe there's going to be a

58. 30:14

    near tribe there's going to be an eth tribe there's going to be a Bitcoin tribe um there's it's un like I don't think that like social ER of these things just dissolves um and so I think like what you are going to see is like more like apps that are located firmly within their tribes um and like appeal to people within their tribes but like are at the same time willing to um are going to be are going to need tools and abstractions to like appeal to like the

59. 30:48

    like all all users who are willing to be on boarded on so maybe to to kind of frame this a little bit more controversial the current DBS are not actual DBS they're just front ends for smart contracts on some chains and and smart contracts are not apps smart contct smart contract are not apps yeah they're just pieces of logic and functionality and state yeah like I think our question is like like to or like to be more concretely is uh

60. 31:20

    like Unis swap or uh or Oasis on salana uh uh or even like osmosis are they apps or they just front ends to uh uh like a swap functionality which is a a useful piece of tech but like a feature of financial yeah it's a finance feature like nobody thinks you know like the market is somewhat like uh if you look at like Trad fi and like what you're like on what like a a brokerage account uh

61. 31:59

    provides you um uh and what which is like multiple ways like you don't think of the stock exchange as the app no it's like well I want to like I want exposure to this assets I want to like manage a portfolio like portfolio management is the app uh uh not uh not like I happen to swap it like this particular vent yeah and I think I mean this there's been the flip side of composability is that like you can build

62. 32:31

    and composability and like this access that you can build a feature a very powerful feature and make it really big right because everything else around you composes uh and so you know Unis swap obviously built on top of the fact that there is metamask and there is kind of other uh you know forces that onboard users and assets are being launched uh without needing to do all that but at the same time yeah I think as as we need

63. 33:00

    as we need to transition to this uh kind of next stage of growth we really need to kind of acknowledge that the best products will you know Encompass the whole user Journey they will provide a really easy way to you know start using start earning start transacting and kind of uh but like it will be all packaged in one and then from there like they probably want like that app will want to have access to the whole multi-chain world of of kind of

64. 33:33

    logic and liquidity and uh kind of bits and pieces that exist in web 3 to really provide the best experience to their users and I think that's really what at the core of chain abstraction that uh we kind of talking about here is that um like this new generation of apps that will be kind of built in in this mindset will will be the ones targeting kind of broader set Beyond just you know any single tribe and in but in turn they will be able to you know provide value

65. 34:09

    and and uh to all of the chains as well and kind of in the way Arbitrage whatever the best smart contract and whatever the best kind of liquidity attractor is I know Kendall if you want to add something yeah I mean I I think uh you know if we look at a lot of what exists in crypto today you know especially at least on the defi side like it's it's infrastructure right it's like The Primitives are basically Financial infrastructure and so like what matters is that that infrastructure is used to

66. 34:40

    like proliferate new new assets or or make you know existing assets like just you know the experience around existing assets and the financialization of them you know more efficient in some way so I definitely agree that like you know the apps the fully featured apps are kind of yet to come I think what gets really interesting and and where chain ofaction becomes kind of more Paramount is like you know there's a lot of different design choices that and trade-offs that

67. 35:04

    are being made in you know creating each of these different chains whether it's app chain or you know kind of like a you know a general chain um and so you would expect that like we're going to see different applications that are going to like make more sense on different chains and in that world you're going to need like that's where that's the world in which you expect that these kind of full feature applications may actually be taking advantage of different components

68. 35:29

    that are proliferating on different chains because those technical trade-offs are more likely to favor them um and so I I think that like yeah it seems like that's the way that we're going I mean it's it's early in the sense that I think there's right now like zachie pointed out earlier there's uh basically like the same set of Primitives that each new chain or even L2 now or eventually L3 is just redeploying under maybe different brand names or even the same brand names and

69. 35:52

    just kind of like you know splintering off basically uh like more like copy paste and then then maybe you get to the point of innovation um so I think we'll see that hopefully start to kind of erode as it'll be like oh actually you know this chain or Layer Two whatever it is makes more sense for this type of use case this one makes more sense for this one and then we can have enough of this kind of like infrastructure built on top of it that hopefully you know whether it's IBC or n or a combination of that

70. 36:15

    can be used to actually build these these full experiences that people actually desire to use rather than just like infrastructure for them that you know appeal to a specific tribal norm and obviously tribal is not going to go away that probably is one of the core products of crypto digital tribalism at least uh so certainly that needs to be catered like those users need to be catered to as well but yeah I think we're going to see uh a lot more of like

71. 36:38

    the building on top and the abstraction as we onboard more and more people to this to this kind of world awesome uh should we up open it up for questions or I don't know zachie if you have anything else to add um I I think that think this question right is it's like so I will just say like one of the experiences with building simier which is like this like has it has components on ethereum it has components on eth2 it has components on a cosmos chain it presents to its users

72. 37:16

    exactly as if it was an ethereum app um which is was like christe Christy's like christe and my vision of like do not ship this as a cosmos chain there's um and so you know the tribe that you build for and the T that you go after are not inherently related to the technology you use um and I think that's going to be like that so you know you're going to start seeing things that get positioned uh at like you could imagine a world in

73. 37:50

    which you see something that is like fully positioned as like the best Bonk Trading experience but it uses a bunch of nearer accounts uh under the hood and a bunch of places to like enable people to like onboard and offboard off of salana for their telegram Bots to like for the Telecom trading Bots to have like smart like intelligent account permissioning Etc which is with without having to say oh okay like what like what can we cram can we cram the optimal

74. 38:21

    solution to every design problem into like the svm design patterns which like there's just there are inherent trade-ups yeah I mean to show we have a telegram trading bot coming out leveraging cter obstruction so uh sounds like that's their next use case uh to offer Bonk but yeah I think the maybe one one thing that like for me that I always find challenging that people perceived like you know there is kind of

75. 38:54

    a perception among and especially VCS but but it it kind of goes beyond that a chain specific metrics like uh tvl or other things affect like the success of the app building there because the perception is that you're limited by the users and kind of you know liquidity that is available there and I think what what we talking here importantly kind of breaks through that and in a way

76. 39:24

    invalidates a lot of the things that people are looking at right now and instead really kind of brings it back to like what is the best use case what uh what the best uh kind of you know programmatically like you know if you think of databases you don't think of like oh uh the this database is like I'm going to cram everything into it right it's like oh I'm going to use mongodb

77. 39:48

    for this and you know postgress for this uh and like Cassandra for that and so uh so I I would say like we'll see some of some of that transition as well in the space which I'm I'm just generally excited about um so I think like one of the things just to like reinforce this idea is I think I don't think a lot of investors in the space UND like have a detailed understanding of why things

78. 40:18

    like TBL sort of restrict restrict your ability and it has a lot more to do with like C Cody onboarding like custody risk management um that kind of stuff and like how a lot of actors in the space like think about those things um and so there's like a lot of different counterparties that are like onboarded onto ethereum um and it was relatively it's like it's been an easier story to say oh you as a counterparty are onboard

79. 40:48

    of ethereum how do we onboard you onto an L2 um than it is to like go to that same set of counterparties and on board them on to Celestia um or onboard them onto uh salana or onboard them onto um but the uh but I do think what we are sketching out as a world is a world that if you think of counterparties onboarding on to these like sort of uh account AB like or chain abstracted like interfaces and chain AB obstructed uh systems and layers then they're like okay cool I

80. 41:26

    and we've we've we we have both we've uh we've seen some of this in Cosmos and we're seeing and I would say uh we've tried at various points in the past to push it harder and maybe that th those moments are coming closer away so what we've seen is is that like if you on board onto like one Cosmos chain even if the cosmos chains are very very different from each other it is easier to see to for like counterparties who have figured out C D compliance everything for one Cosmos chain to then

81. 41:59

    do another Cosmos chain one of the things that we've pitched in the past to things like custodians is like hey like what if there was one Cosmos chain where you would control where like where you would hold all of your assets could you simplify your onboarding so like rather than every individual Cosmos chain having to go to the same list of custodians and the same list of exchanges and get onboarded can we just

82. 42:23

    have a solution and you know there's some things I can't talk about yet but there are some like big players in the Eos in like the crypto ecosystem that are ready to like kind of dip their toes into this a little bit where they're like okay like we haven't onboarded uh this chain but we have onboarded a chain that uh like IBC is embedded in and like we are comfortable you starting to use

83. 42:48

    some IBC features so that users on our platform um can like for instance like uh you know send out assets to osmosis if we have an onboarded osmosis or uh you know uh or like liquid stake atom or something like that using our interfaces without having to like directly and I think a lot more of this and like some of this can be done permissionless in Cosmos like you could like you could create a an account on let's say Noble and say uh like a another smart contract

84. 43:21

    platform or an NPC platform or something could like say if you like we'll create an account and a user just needs to put that account into their coinbase send usdc to that account and then it will do some complicated thing like swap into atam liquid stake that atom and then like uh uh you know like Leverage stake it um that complicated thing could be embedded and encoded as a user interface element as just like here's this one

85. 43:45

    Noble address stick it into coinbase yeah and I think this is kind of the direction we as near trying to build toward where ideally anyone just needs to integrate one time and then has access to kind of all the chains you know from Bitcoin to all the EVMS to salana to Cosmos chains and I think uh on the on our side we're also trying to make it easier to integrate by actually adding

86. 44:16

    ethereum transaction format and kind of Standards uh to really make it kind of straightforward for a lot of the under party to do this so I think the there's definitely like this kind of removing the barrier to onboard and then also removing the barrier to interact kind of across the vast majority of the chains it also has this like interesting equalizer effect where right now you

87. 44:46

    know if you have like a rollup or a chain and you you know you figured out how to do partnership with you know this custodian or that uh partner who like added whatever some other support like this approach of you know account aggregation will actually kind of equalize it because you know you can just deposit assets you can uh kind of swap Etc with any chain directly you don't need uh to uh have them on boarded you can even

88. 45:17

    for example take the Oracle information reposted on every other chain uh in the same way right and so you have kind of the same level of security that Nia provides so you can have like all this interesting like replication waves going kind of through the whole uh the blockchains as well