Zero Knowledge Community Call #10 - near/dev/hub

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:03

   yeah so um welcome again we're at double digits Community call 10 let's go uh I know we have some new people here uh especially from those who who hacked with us at eth Dam so I'll just explain a bit about what these uh calls entail oh it's not uh it's not it's not February uh so yeah these these calls are just a time for the community to to come together and discuss what's happening with zero knowledge in the ecosystem and we try and keep it free

2. 0:45

   format so more discussion back and forth but we have a lot of people uh presenting and and people like to see what others are up to so yeah everyone's welcome to participate just speak up raise your hand type in the chat wherever you're comfortable with and uh you're you're encouraged to participate as well we love um like a lot of discourse and stuff uh so yeah myself I'll just moderate this call I

3. 1:18

   don't make any decisions about proposals or or whatever in this call uh that that happens asynchronously normally by the the work group group and other entities and yeah I'm recording this call as well and it'll be uploaded to YouTube afterwards so here are the topics that have been suggested for today except the top one top one is by myself uh so I'm going to talk a bit about the

4. 1:49

   infrastructure committee and then uh I think we we have zero pool here as well um to talk about their their near privacy standard token then we'll have a a presentation from oxus layer uh who who built a project at eth Dam uh we have R Zer joining us a bit uh joining us here and they're going to talk about some some stuff should be interesting and then uh Jose my friend Jose will be talking a bit about uh

5. 2:23

   whistleblowing and how ZK could be used for that so I'll just speak a about the infrastructure committee a little bit here I should be able to I don't really need to share my screen but I can share the link so there's this new uh basically funding node that have been um put up in collaboration with the near Foundation which is they have a budget of of 4 million to fund well infrastructure within near so whether that be like rpcs or wallets or zero knowledge

6. 3:06

   infrastructure so they don't have any specific uh calls for proposals with ZK but now if you're you're looking to get a grant for building ZK infrastructure then the best place to go is this infrastructure committee and I'll share this link in the the chat as well but this is just a link to a Blog which will explain it in much more detail than I can go into here uh but if you have any questions about it just just let me know and I should be

7. 3:40

   able to help out so should we pass it over to uh to zero pool to dive in um okay so let's discuss there are full near privacy Tok standard uh what we done we implemented uh extension for uh funable token standard it's available in our GitHub in repository uh zle uh in the Apple network uh so how it's working uh we add additional functionality to token uh providing deposits and withdrawals and input pool transactions for privacy pool

8. 4:31

   and attach uh privacy pool related uh uh verifier and logic to the Token conference so it it is uh uh funable token uh contract but with u additional functionality uh so uh uh inside the pool um user experience is the same as with our existing privacy pools uh it's deposits withdrawals and transactions um um so uh that's it also uh we support uh uh two proving systems uh it's gr 16 and pl um so if uh somebody who want to

9. 5:33

   use token standard um is going to make Transit set up ceremony uh then um gross extinct would be used uh for case with uh no trusted stabs uh long is useful as also um yeah uh so in a few words uh from our side uh research and development uh is done and uh as I wrote in our telegram group uh now we are looking for someone who can uh take organizational part who can take uh the part of uh interaction with uh users uh and maybe customizing

10. 6:23

    frontend of course we are ready to support this but we are ready to support the engine of this uh solution but uh we don't have any opportunity to support the uh whole uh privacy talking Standard and to deliver it from the very beginning to the to the end because we think this story should be decentralized as everything is in the near uh because it's not uh good when in decentralized community in decentralized infrastructure something uh totally

11. 6:57

    dependent on one team and we against of each and we can take uh responsibility on research on further development of this engine of course of support but we need someone else uh for this solution uh for example we have uh working uh we are working with uh Z we provide them our solution uh including front and inside client uh Rel layers uh smart contracts and so on uh and to say about front end we help them

12. 7:39

    with front end but all design and user experience are uh from their side not from our side from our side is only a technical support of this solution yeah I mean was some PRS and such things and this solution is almost a year inro there is no issue with uh Vis it and we support this engine and we can customize something for them as we did it because they requested something we customize it uh but uh it's a

13. 8:10

    decentralized solution they are responsible for uh user experience for legal part for something else and we are responsible for en the same we are looking for here if uh if someone was looking to get involved what would the best way to contact you uh be uh what do you mean the best way of contacting us so we are in telegram so we are open you can write me or eer we are both in their knowledge uh near Group H after this call I can repeat

14. 8:54

    this message once again so it will be more easier to find out us yeah for sure I think that' be great awesome thanks uh does anyone have any questions about that I was wondering myself whether is is this going are you going to like open a a net about this um like how there's a a like a near standard for for tokens are you going to open like a official NP to for for like the Privacy

15. 9:36

    token if you understand uh yes uh uh it could be described as nap of course uh uh it's not an issue we will we can provide this documentation for now we have just uh implementation uh we have uh documentation of the pool on our website um we we can provide it as extension for token as snap standard yes nice uh any followup anyone or shall we move on uh got one quick question um you're mentioning that you were supporting cross 16 Cru is it over any specific

16. 10:37

    curve I assume it's over 254 with like the pre compil near or is it something else uh we implemented support of this Cs on near so it's ALB 128 so it's standard CS uh and for so standard tools I I know there could be some issues for uh making U Mina protocol on near because the HS are different for our case we we support near snarks we we implement this PR compiles okay uh I think that seems like it's it is there anything you want to add more to that I yeah I think it' be a great

17. 11:42

    idea to put uh to reiterate this in the chat after the call yeah sure okay thank you uh so we'll move to um octopus layer next if you want to present and and I'll give give a little bit of context so uh octopus layer were at e Dam uh where we were sponsoring as well and we had uh 12 submissions there which was amazing I think that's the most we've ever had and these were all like proper valid submissions and uh the the uh Pedro was

18. 12:21

    also there who helped out a bit so uh so thank you for that so uh yeah please please go ahead and and share about octopus later um yes of course thank you very much first of all uh everyone uh can I share my screen you should be able to I I'll take mine down now um yeah now you can't see I guess right can you looks good on my end okay great uh so yeah this was a Kon project start like like a Kon project but we really like the idea um and uh we really

19. 13:09

    feel that there can be something beneath this idea uh basically we tried to create um um chain agnostic snark proof verifier layer on top of near um there was uh different reasons why we chose near I will explain further um first of all what's the um background what's the problem um first of all we need need ZK snar proofs that's the only way of providing onchain privacy uh so having an easy way of integrating proving ZK snar proofs on near without that that

20. 13:38

    can be very useful for near developers uh but even though ZK snarks are verified in constant time still is costly to be implemented it's hard cryptographic schams are not that easy and all one time complexity is the theoretical limit but it's not as easy to achieve that uh so without that it's not really easy to do that in near um likeon it was impossible but you know in general too um plus uh in terms of proof aggregation um ZK snar proofs are much stronger when they're aggregated but not

21. 14:13

    all ZK Frameworks are strong in the proof agregation side but some specific Technologies are better I will explain further in a bit uh and finally it's not really developer friendly to use very different programming techniques uh to generate knowledge proofs so without that why don't enable the power of JavaScript typescript um with near smart contracts to actually allow everyone to implement their ZK proofs very

22. 14:37

    easily um and that's why we used OJs the ZK framework language in Mina maybe you are familiar uh to inclined site to C to create full privacy and create GK snar proofs and then using our octopus layer uh basically distribute this proofs into near and finally using near multichain model uh make these public outputs of CK SAR proofs available to all chains um Let me give some background and I will show the architector then uh first of

23. 15:09

    all there's near I guess we all know um but like first of all um I think the very important Point here is that um near has a strong consensus is a strong settlement layer but storing huge amounts of data in near um not expensive but it's costly it's in a data chain um so I think that using ZK proofs and using an external layer for proof verification is more efficient even though I'm an expert in near architector um then there's multichain which is very exciting but it allows us to actually

24. 15:40

    you know only use near to settle but then be able to broadcast our public outputs of our proofs to anywhere uh and finally there is this data availability I'm not sure if it's fully ready on near but they are talking about light clients uh so if near light clients are there our layer is also ready to be integrated into those light clients so that like it creates roof availability I would say uh

25. 16:07

    for snack proof verification y1 JS first of all it's uh so it's easy to use in any front end uh it's really easy I don't know to start using you can check it out um but the main reason is that there's a something called pickles API inside OJs which is specifically used uh on top of blank proofs to have proof agregation and that's like the biggest strength of1 JS sorry is there a question or

26. 16:41

    anything oh I I just typed in the chat okay sorry yeah that was a yeah thank you um and yeah finally um they can export that Json files um natively so I guess that's also an advantage uh to be broadcasted I guess more easily on a layer like ours um so yeah this is our architector uh basically we create our zge proofs in the client site with OJs uh we don't do any proof aggregation as our own but you can use the client site to aggregate

27. 17:14

    your own proofs you can send as many proofs as you like at once to the verification layer there is no limit I guess as I said that's the biggest strength of o1 JS proof aggregation is um quite complex and quite past so you can create V custom structures using o1 JS pickles API um and then you get this proofs uh and right now you have a proof a ZK snark proof and you want your ZK snark proof to be on the near on near side we have two contracts one of them is the

28. 17:46

    verifier contract that's specific to the octopus layer there's only one verifier contract it's like a constant contract I would say uh and it is used for communication between the notes of the octopus layer but also communication of this client site and octopus node um that's the first part why we use near life clients uh it's also used to verify that uh this layer always stays trustless uh but it doesn't do the application part uh when you will use

29. 18:18

    doctopus layer and you will do some custom ZK snar uh verification uh you would of course want to assert your proof to someone chain State you can do it by creating an application contract it's our regular near contract for the proof of concept we know defined our own rules like you should have a public output um a public Asser statement and a public output state in near so that like the proof can set public output and can read through the assert State Etc like

30. 18:48

    there are small limits uh but basically you can deploy anything as an application contract on the near s side uh once your ZK proof is ready you don't directly interact with the application contract you actually don't send the proof to the near directly you send the proof to the octopus layer first you connect to the verifier contract either through an RPC or through your own light client and you get the list of nodes

31. 19:13

    octopus nodes I mean from near uh octopus notes are very light uh small proof verifier notes anyone can join the layer uh they are just responsible for verifying the proofs that they get and they don't have data they don't have consensus once you get the full list of notes either to one or to all of them you send the Json proof and you say can you please verify and settle this on chain uh you can incentivize the application contract before signing your

32. 19:44

    proof or application contract can be incentivized by the application owner um that part is not specified in here as a was Eaton project I guess incentivization is easy there's only one very specific point that makes this layer uh fully trustless are available I will explain in a bit uh once the proof is on layer um the notes first verify the proof while verifying get the onchain verification key uh the verification key is specific to every application of course so they make sure that they are verifying the right proof

33. 20:16

    uh they also get any onchain assert state so that like you can assert your proof to some onchain application contract State uh and they also um yeah that's all to verify the proof then one once the proof is verified they get the URLs of other notes again from near so they don't actually store the URLs of other notes they don't know where other notes are they reach other notes through verified contract as well they get the notes and they just create a gossip they

34. 20:44

    say okay that's the proof I have uh that's my signature I signed the proof uh and you can sign too uh they sign of course the near private key uh and then they create a gossip once they reach 66% they set settle um that uh proves public output on near with 66% of signatures uh during settlement we verify all signatures are okay um through verifier contract and it's all good to go uh here

35. 21:14

    the layer is trustless uh cuse anyone can join the layer uh through 66% incentives but it's not um it does not require consensus because uh once the settlement is complete not the settler note is incentivized but all signatures who were in the settlement transaction are incentivized equally you don't receive a money because you settle rather there will be a right to deposit like something like that on the near contract so once you settle all signatures in the settlement are um

36. 21:53

    shown to have some kind of deposit so they can get the deposit and they can be incentivized and since the incentives are equal for all the nodes they don't compete there is this perfect game theory and they just try to sign as many proofs as fast as they can and settle in near as fast as they can uh and once the public output is on near you can just use multichain to submit the result of the public output to basically anywhere uh here the ZK snack proof verification is

37. 22:22

    done completely off chain so we you make use of the power of web to these notes can be as fast f as you like they can be like noes because they don't have state they don't have data but they can also be very strong like you know rust orl machines to enable the fastest proof generation possible um but yeah so in then that's the point like we do the proof verification outside that's why it's fast it's Stressless of course the economics of the model should be worked a bit

38. 22:52

    more um so yeah to give some final details on next steps uh so yeah first of they are very light so you can even deploy them in a browser that would be an interesting uh interesting Improvement uh in some future iterations of the product we actually are const string of um getting rid of like this layer entirely and using the client S as a whole to make responsible of the proof

39. 23:17

    verification so clients would be responsible for generating and verifying Zone which proves that the same time uh since they can join and lead the network very fast uh so there's no data there's no synchronization uh so that's why once you connect to the application the node can be started in your browser instantly um so they reward equally as I said so they don't compete they work

40. 23:42

    together um there are no consensus because they all try to achieve the same thing um and yeah I guess that's that's the main points of the current architecture U this does not allow um proof aggregation um on chain I would say of course you can use o1 CH inclined site to aggregate as much proofs as you like but in then the idea of the Slayer is about proof verification uh but we are coning of improving this architecture of course it was a Kon project so our initial approach was only

41. 24:15

    to being able to verify Z casar proofs on top of near um so first of all yeah incentivization is missing uh we are right now keeping a public key list on near which is not optimal at all uh if you have a meracle route in the verifier contract that's like much less data uh much more optimized so that should definitely be uh implemented um the joining of a new node should be modeled much better um we can set incentives to make sure that the set

42. 24:45

    is always at some constant size like if there is less than 100 notes that incentives are so high that people are just you know dying to get in and once the number of people in the set passes like 120 incentives are soow like no one else is joining so that like we always have some kind of uh static size or else we can create incentives so that as there are more and more people joining there are more and more incentives so it doesn't affect the system at all and we

43. 25:15

    have as many layer noes as required always um that can be achieved through like browser verification maybe um of course that should be an npm package wrapping all this functionality so that like this is much easier to access um not explained here but I guess the most exciting part of this this project is actually being able to use this layer for proof aggregation as well if you

44. 25:40

    have some light modular nodes um there is no reason for you to not use this layer to also aggregate ZK snar proofs um the only problem is that when The Ordering of proofs is important like for financial applications since it can create a risk of Arbitrage um there should be a player responsible for uh ordering these proofs uh because if all of these Notes act like a sequencer then

45. 26:06

    you need a consensus protocol so that like these notes can agree on The Ordering of CK KN proofs on the settled transaction uh which not ideal because we want this set to be as light as possible uh a possible way of achieving this without changing this architecture too much is using a DA layer integrated into the system of course near if it's truly achieves to be a DA can be used uh but a DA with more data specific needs

46. 26:33

    can also be used without any computation environment I think that in that sense near makes more sense for consens and settlement than the data storage if there's a DA layer the da consens itself can be used to order these transactions um the clients send their transactions to the DA layer um the notes get the transactions from the da layer sign it um verify it and set it on near without changing the order

47. 26:58

    um that can be interesting way of achieving trust SEC execution I guess that was all sorry it was a bit long um thank you everyone and if there's any questions love to answer um yeah thank you uh any questions or anything I think we had a a hand raised before did someone have a question um yeah social cap hello L hey yeah we actually meet before so I wonder um well as obviously there

48. 27:49

    was you were building it but what did you find most difficult to complete as part as uh the hackathon project oh yeah yeah first of all it wasn't complete as I got on Project like if you see the code it's half F done um the multichain wasn't working great uh because there was only an example for the coin exchanges uh and we find it quite hard to actually uh use the same structure for custom State transitions I thought it should be easy but somehow we weren't able to do uh plus like this

49. 28:22

    would create much more value is other chains if other chains were also implemented all right now I guess there's Al there's only possible in ethereum and Bitcoin so far so for our case it's only for ethereum it would be much more interesting if there was Cosmos 2 Etc yeah there are there are more uh chains available not with uh like gas relayer that's just for uh ethereum Bitcoin and binance smart chain uh but

50. 28:52

    any uh I don't I don't know how is it edca or EC DSA I can never remember the order but any uh chain that um follows that curve um you you should be able to integrate with it just might be more difficult to do so than the given examples like salana you can't do that right now but that's apparently coming so watch out yeah thank you uh does anyone have any more questions about that um it's really interesting to

51. 29:34

    me not that I understand it really what why not do everything inside here and have the and having the layer if is actually cheap to verify and you have like most postmart contracts verifying it outside in your why the layer um doesn't that bring like an extra yeah you go ahead yeah sorry uh I guess it's about the next step uh so for now I guess it's hard to implement um that kind of plun verifier or one just verifier on top of near that would take

52. 30:04

    some time uh but even if when you do um that's not 100% decentralized because it's not modular you depend on near for everything and at some point like this is not the optimal solution uh and in the long run if we can actually use this layer as only part of the browsers without in external notes um then we would enable you know proof verification uh in out truly decentralized distributed sense I would say because every participant joining the network would actually making the proof verifications process faster and

53. 30:37

    stronger and with less trust um I guess that's like the next step of internet too I see I see nice uh would you share your GitHub might have had already but I should have sorry thanks man awesome awesome so I think seems like everyone is is content thank you for that presentation um really interesting I think that's maybe the second or third time I've I've seen it now um so I I know we have um the

54. 31:35

    the uh like Austin here to talk about uh what what were you g to talk about some something with risk zero and maybe related to near uh so yeah if you if you have anything to share that'd be really interesting to hear yeah absolutely um so yeah just just to give some context this is somewhat of a of a last minute addition to this call so I don't have the like presentation of slides and everything um

55. 32:07

    and I'm hoping to just like chat through some ideas and I have at least a PR that I can you know share with with people just if they're curious about some code and if anyone has any you know questions as we're going along you know feel free to just unmute or you know send something in the chat um the two things I had mentioned I was going to chat about the first one being um outcome uh proof verification in a in a Zer

56. 32:33

    knowledge proof uh and the second one being um basically a risk zero verifier on near and these are both kind of like very experimental like I do want to prefix that with like yes these things did not really even exist like 24 hours ago very much early stages um but hopefully just get to get a discussion see what people are looking for see what would solve people's you know actual use cases um so I shared I shared a PR for

57. 33:00

    the first part of this and um there is some context uh yeah for but it was it was it was somewhat forced but I I mean uh it was a great reason for me to like force myself to like you know do these initiatives because it's been you know on my uh it's on my to-do list for a bit um so yeah so the the first part is uh transaction outcome per verification over zero so this is somewhat um buildup of what was talked about I think on the last uh call it might have been the last one or previous one before that where my friend

58. 33:34

    Hans gave like an explanation of of the the actual like like client proof and risk zero so the context all you need to know about here is the like client is basically a way for um you know someone to verify the consensus of the near blockchain so you can say you know a certain range of blocks is actually valid and it's basically just doing some basic uh validating the like validator rotation like signatures and a bunch of

59. 34:04

    other validation of the blocks um and uh it's also a recursive uh like client block verification so you can have basically one proof which could either be a snark or a stark uh and it'll verify any arbitrarily long amount of of near light client blocks um so that was what was TR about before um and the the part that is the addition on here which is the pr I linked in the chat is something that was you know somewhat hacked together over

60. 34:35

    the past uh over the past day um and essentially it's the the other part or the extension to the light client protocol which is essentially you sent a transaction and you want to prove that that transaction uh is actually included and you know is based on the and is connected to the actual like light client block that you've verified um you know this is useful for for a lot of different things like say interop like Rainbow Bridge for example is going to do the like client block verification

61. 35:06

    but then for each user action basically each user transaction it's also going to do the outcome transaction proof validation um and how this is set up in the pr is essentially it the outcome proof is composed with the U block validation this is not necessarily something you might want to do in an actual like production scenario like you might want to have it structured a different way like for example like most you know a common pattern is to have like a single

62. 35:36

    block uh like basically leg client block validation being done by one party and then you know uh each user would just basically reference that block Ash and you know do something Pro on top of it um but it's kind of like a interesting use stes then easy to kind of remove later if if you just want to do the transaction outcome prove um so yeah so um right now so basically what you're proving in one of these proofs is I have

63. 36:09

    a transaction uh that is valid from a specific block height and that's kind of like a a lot of a lot of statements allinone and then that can also be composed with other logic so say if you want to prove some other statements or you know you want to create some assertion about what exists on near or you know any other arbitrary logic you can easily compose that and do everything all within one Stark or snark um so does that high level explanation

64. 36:36

    makes sense to everyone does anyone have questions about that before I kind of move on to some other parts seeing some thumbs up so it seems it seems like uh it seems like that generally makes sense um so so yeah let me just so yeah that that one's pretty much ready to ready to go like it's it's you know working in a general sense uh there's some like slight you know gotches here and there there was a somewhat of an issue I was running into with the proof RPC uh that is somewhat

65. 37:13

    somewhat resolved uh but uh yeah I still have an open discussion on zul about that um and yeah so I'll try about just the other part which is uh the the near verifier um um this was something that there used to be I think about a year ago there was a a stark verifier on near for basically there was example that risk zero had um and uh since then a lot of things have changed um and

66. 37:47

    also uh like just the ability to basically verify Starks and snarks would be useful just to kind of compare how they actually run on near this kind of dovetails very you know into what was previously shoted about um like very similar to the I guess Mina case except this one the intention is to just verify right on near um it's that's also built uh but the surprising thing is that the Stark and snark verification uh through like software just wasm

67. 38:19

    verification is actually above the the gas limit which was quite surprising so I need to debug that maybe there's something with the the sandbox test no that uh you know something something is strange can pick there it was literally just done in an hour so I I do need to to to go back into that and see what the issue is um but yeah basically the use case here is they you're an application developer

68. 38:43

    you want to create some some statement of truth about some computation or you want to create some sort of Zer knowledge proof um the benefit for doing using RIS zero in this context especially on near is that you're already writing your contract in Rust and being able to like write a zero knowledge proof in in Rust and basically if anyone's not familiar with r zero it's basically uh a risk a risk five virtual machine uh so you're basically writing Russ uh rust code it compiles

69. 39:14

    down to you know somewhat of a variant of risk five b code and then that just gets run through zkm and will create a proof uh so as in so basically the the benefit here is that you can write your app completely in Rust and you know you could add some like either priv if you have some like privacy use case like a kind of hooks into like what zero pool was talking about before and potentially there's an overlap there um or or just like if you want to do some arbitrarily

70. 39:44

    large amount of computation offchain you can kind of keep all of your logic and rust and and use RIS zero and then as I mentioned before the target is either a start proof or just a regular like BN 256 gr 16 proof as a snark um so yeah I'll I should soon have a place to link for for that code it's very much just uh it's uh just I just have the code locally I mean if it's useful for anyone I can share my

71. 40:14

    screen and share what that would look like but I mean there's really not too much to show um kind of I I'll just stop there if anyone has any questions around like that type of flow or how it Compares with what was chatted about earlier on the call because you know it might be helpful to kind of explain some of the differences so just you're saying you could not verify on year because you're exceeding the gas amount yeah there's some cryptic errors the error was actually something along

72. 40:47

    the lines of uh the contract not having enough gas to pay for storage but there was actually not anything being saved to storage so it might be something to do with this this the sandbox testing um I'm not quite sure I I haven't had the time to to you know test it on I'm right now looking into testing it on teet right now but it's it's likely surmountable but I mean eventually the end game would be to use like pre

73. 41:12

    compiles and just doing like gr 16 using that just because it'll be cheaper why not um but uh yeah like I can't see why it would be you know over the over any sort of gas limit but that was that was what was you know being into so yeah I'll look into that but it shouldn't be that should definitely be surmountable yeah we were verifying on chain uh and we have some tests maybe we will help I sent you send the rep on the chat it's been a while since I haven't gone through the reer so that's the best

74. 41:46

    I can do to help yeah I appreciate that and what kind of proofs were you were you verifying on Chan uh we did both for 16 and pl cool cool yeah yeah I'll look into that and I think as as zeroo was mentioning they have the cross 16 verifier as well yeah so yeah either one of those but yeah that and and I take it you're using the pre- compiles uh through near or were you just doing like a a software

75. 42:18

    verification oh that's a good question because I did not write it okay gotta yeah cool but yeah that's uh that that'll definitely be helpful I'll look into that after appreciate that does anyone else have any like other thoughts like I mean if anyone has like not even just a question but just like kind of an anecdote or something they want to chat vote before because that's pretty much I just wanted to share all that kind of a

76. 42:44

    high level there's not really uh anything else that I wanted to cover today so if anyone else has thoughts I'd be happy to reach CH about this or if you have any sort of use case that would be useful for this I'd love to hear it because then you know maybe there's a collaboration there yeah I wish uh I understood enough to ask questions hopefully hopefully in a few months time yeah I mean even if it's a even if it's like a you know dumb question I'm

77. 43:19

    happy to to you know try to draw some lines I mean it's it's possible I didn't you know make that as beginner friendly as I could have so I'd love to hear if anything was like super confusing yeah nothing nothing for me for me I think people might have uh questions afterwards uh so I think Austin would be up for like if you want to message him or whatever about it okay thanks a lot for that and uh I I

78. 43:52

    appreciate you putting something together so quick that's awesome um so Jose would you would you like to uh share about this this whistleblowing thing and possible use case for uh ZK we we sort of had this as one of our uh potential use cases for the hackathon for eth Dam because we always like to give some people ideas if they don't know what quite what they want to hack up here you're a thing I thank you for

79. 44:26

    having me hello everybody uh let me share my screen can you see it slowly okay the idea is this a real use case for SE knowledge uh and use it as a Cornerstone for for for build the ultimate whistleblowing tool for the European countries uh the idea here is that uh this this this uh come from a directive of the European Union uh you can Google that uh to have a guideline uh it's the 2019 1937 uh European Parliament directive

80. 45:24

    this is a mandate uh for all the European Union countries to create laws to to protect whistleblowers in the European uh in the European Union uh and how to use compliance as a path to mass adoption of blockchain Technology right uh and this is important because when when you use compliance uh as the use case the need is s it's not about proving the you know the potential users or consumers that that you get an opportunity or you need to point out that there is a need that

81. 46:02

    you can cover with your product uh in this case the need is out there already uh this law this directive came from in 2019 and most of the European countries uh rule on this uh issue on 2022 so it's quite new uh this this directive mandate to all companies and public entities with more than 50 employees to have a whistleblower tool or service hire is a possibility for someone who works in a in the city hall or for the government or in a big company they should have the

82. 46:46

    opportunity to to make a compliance uh to make a complaint sorry uh about an issue that they noticed that when when the compan is breaking some laws some here laws the employee should have the the access to present uh the case without compromising their identity right so uh the amount the the number of potential users for these products is 71 millions of people this the the the number of people that works

83. 47:20

    in a company uh only on the private sector and a company with more than 50 uh employ so you need to add to the number the the the number of people that works in the public sector right and potential clients uh if you make the numbers in the European Union is around 341,000 companies with more than 50 uh employees and again this is only in the private sector uh and it is to to create a product or the the potential case is to create a product that that really cover the

84. 48:02

    security required for a whistleblower tool and you know what but let's see what is the problem uh right now if you make a Google search on whistleblower Services tool in European Union wherever you will find several companies and what what what the companies do is that they delegate uh the the security of the data on a third party they have a company that provide these you know whistleblower services or wherever but all these companies are custodial so there is always a chance

85. 48:41

    that this uh wer blowers identities could be compromised through you know rundoing of the of the custodial company or for you know they suffer a ha attack or whatever so so far all the all the solutions out there are not that safe so delegating the the the liability is what the the companies does it's like I don't want to you know like I want to comply with this law but I don't want to you know build all the stuff and and secure

86. 49:13

    the data everything so they delegate the liability if they hire a company and that company suffer a breach of the information or whatever the the responsibilities in that company but that doesn't really protect the whistleblowers right uh so the current Solutions raise concerns about the data security and and and the proper compliance for the for the for the whistleblowers and guess what Zer knowledge offer the more secure and reliable solution for this

87. 49:50

    problem so uh this is a couple of requirements that this kind of tool should have and this came from uh a discussion with a really big uh International NGO uh that covers public transparency and anti-corruption uh that is called ER Transparency International uh I I keep a couple of discussion with them and and they are really you know like uh really curious about the the opportunities to use blockchain and what world three and zero

88. 50:22

    knowledge to solve this and Tackle this issue so for for this kind of tool you need an identity management uh and this is this is a tricky part because you you may you need to to provide wallets for example to all these employees uh and especially you should have the possibility to recovery the private keys of these wallets and this was you need you need to prove that you had the legal stance to make a complaint that you you need to prove that you are part of this company

89. 50:59

    without revealing your identity right and the the identity managers management so it should have three levels or three different kinds one is public identity you you you may have uh you could have like a you know present a complaint with your your legal name uh if you want but if you keep if you want to keep your identity private you should have two options one is a it just generate a complaint uh without any trace of the identity of the person but

90. 51:33

    again proving that you got the Le St or using cimity and cimity is like a nickname uh usually is that's the case when someone have more information about the the the law has been broken or the the complaint that they made they present some information but they want to keep track on that and they want to to keep providing more information or more details or more proof of this issue so they they they could use a nickname to trace that this is The Whistleblower that you can

91. 52:08

    identify the Whistleblower without knowing who who this person is right uh the the other requirement is that all these complaints should be public so that that's that's an easy part for for us or for for this industry and uh the chance to to make a a tracking a followup of these of of this these complaints uh so the possibility to create a dashboard that you can trace these complaints and everything uh but also the tool the tool

92. 52:46

    should have the POS the possibility to change your your identity type if you start a complaint as uh under anonymity you should have the chance to change that to move that to a cimity uh or even revealing your identity right but never never in the other in the other way but but just that side uh so we have the chance to to deliver this kind of tool in a really better shape that the the coring industry uh that you can see around uh so what are the challenges uh

93. 53:25

    providing W to employees uh and again like you need to you need to break this you need to break this resistance to new technology and of course like let me jump that the chain abstraction is a great OPP you know provides several opportunities to solve this issue that the users and the companies could feel this tools like a web to uh app without knowing that this a wallet that you need to sign this transaction everything so

94. 53:58

    you you can build this in a really frictionless way uh of course uh the opportunity to wall recovery or private GE recovery for employees because imagine that someone start work in a big company and they receive this wallet for whistleblower and five years ahead they get something that they want you know they want to introduce a complaint and they completely forgot these keys so they should have a chance to

95. 54:30

    recover these private Keys uh again without revealing who they are and and of course this should be built in a noncustodial uh way right uh of course the gr are really useful and and and easy to track a dashboard for all these complaints and in the case that that someone wants to build this need to to remember that every single country in the European Union make a law to rule on this issue so the two should be customizable that you need to you need to be able to TW

96. 55:11

    this tool for every single country because the laws on on among these countries are more or less the same but there are some differences so you need to to be able to to cover this and the B line here is that again like CK is the brings the solution for this issue uh that and again this is an opportunity to on board uh other Industries on on web 3 uh and this is something that I want to point out because when when you try to to integrade blockchain on the

97. 55:52

    public sector there are there there are several block and this and mostly it's about that they don't know the technology they don't understand the technology they only know you know crypto Lambos that that kind of stuff so uh the importance of this opportunity the The Whistleblower stuff is that the the directors on the laws uh requires the people to so these these companies and these public entities like the city hall or something

98. 56:23

    they need to provide their own service or tool or hire a tool for that so it's it's not that like you need to convince the government to create something Nationwide uh but you can create a company create this tool provide that service and prove that your tool is way better than you know the other opportunity of the other uh companies that offer these whistleblowing tools so that's a really good opportunity to leverage compliance for for Mass

99. 56:54

    adoption of web three of blockchain and again chain abstraction makes that bad frictionless so this was the presentation that we prepar for for eam heon and also is an invitation for anyone who wants to you know try to fix this issue there is a big Market out there and if you have any question I'm in the in the CK telegram group uh we can dive deep on this and and even we can connect some people some big organizations that are trying to

100. 57:30

     follow on this issue you you seem really passionate about this is Boris being like really harsh to you at Dev hob and you want to whistleblow about Boris uh not now I can confirm or deny that so I need a tool to express myself no no this this is actually I discussed this with several people and the ETC hackaton last year uh at Paris and I keep discussing this with with the transparency international team so we guess that this is a really big

101. 58:16

     opportunity for for the integration of of blockchain on the you know on the other uh Industries and provide real solutions with it with you right awesome does anyone have any thoughts around this want to build it higher higher Jose as the their marketer yeah I think uh a lot of people are uh hopping off the call they've got places to be but I'm happy to hang around for a few more minutes and I'm sure Jose is

102. 58:58

     um and I know uh Manza also wanted to yeah I think most people are going but yeah Manza do you want to explain anything about uh sorry remind me of it social something and just give AIT quick bit about how people can learn more and then maybe next call can go into it absolutely um yeah hey guys yeah we can cuss about to later on the next Community call but basically uh we have been working on last year uh

103. 59:30

     now on the on the chall on verifying the D and of credential on the um basically it's a community based acation protocol right uh and we enable a self an validation isance of potential We have basically have um use uh validator that a real people that validate all the evidence that the the applicants provide for the credential and well um basically we are working on what we call the Social consensus layer

104. 1:00:08

     is something that we are looking for when when when the when it's will be um match on the on the on the layer but basically I really excited to see all the the world that the all the people working and also did see the octopus layer that sh uh are working on um just one moment um I have we have been working we have supporting Mina foundation on um on Mina Navigator program that this basically is something

105. 1:00:43

     that for the Mina de Community uh basically to provide the all the credential system for for that for for the B that the developer ER obtain for for working on on on the project and the next step for us is to provide a train agnostic uh creational system that obviously is going to be made on on near so really to see what is working and also to have a chance to to collaborate with that pretty

106. 1:01:20

     much awesome yeah I think the a lot of people had to drop off uh in including octopus so please put more information in the in the chat and I'll I'll be happy to Ping uh any any specific people but I I think you said you knew the Ops plus uh guys before right yeah I think but yeah we should uh definitely have you talk more about this on the next call that' be great absolutely thank you okay uh any any last thing people want to shout about or let's let's end

107. 1:01:59

     it here I think okay yep thanks for sticking around till the end uh see you next time he guys thank you thank you byee thank you bye