DevHub Live 35 - Runemine from Mine Labs

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

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   I every n

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   hello and welcome to another edition of devhub live I am your host Joe from devhub uh we have another exciting episode coming today uh continuing the theme from last week talking about uh Bitcoin on near and projects that are building around that uh so I'm really exciting stuff here today our guests are from mine Labs talking about run mine um and they're going to get into all of all

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   that great stuff and I'm really excited to talk more about that because I personally want to learn a little bit more too so I think this should be a great episode around that just around the the building piece of that that I is going to be something that uh we've talked at at the abstract level in different workshops and stuff like that before we haven't really got into like what it actually looks like when you build a product leveraging some of this stuff uh also just some quick

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   housekeeping uh if you're not already subscribed to our newsletter uh down below subscribe to our newsletter uh here at devhub every single week we produce a newsletter that has all the happenings in the developer ecosystem with in and around near uh in near AI so uh make sure you're following along with that uh if you are looking for information how to get start to build or looking for Dev support that's also at the bottom of the screen at all times uh

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   I do not want to take too much time with the housekeeping the front because I don't I want to make sure that we get to any other questions and things like that if you have questions or whatever else feel free to comment uh on any different streams that we are on live right now and we will try to get to those questions uh as well before further Ado let me bring up the guys from run mine hey guys uh thanks for thanks for coming on today uh maybe we could just

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   take like uh 30 seconds and maybe you guys talk a little bit about uh what run mine is is uh what it comes from from mine labs and kind of what your uh roles are uh in the project yeah sure thing I think I can start on this um so hi guys I'm Jeff head of business and development at rine uh we've been building in the runes ecosystem being the leading uh fungible asset on bitcoin we've been building for the last 13 14

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   months in the space um a lot of our team have come from uh you know done the ring I've personally been in the space about eight nine years now um and you know started came in at at the Bitcoin level uh saw the opportunities in the ethereum space moved over there then over to salana and then as kind of we saw this emergence um of you know the Renaissance of kind of innovation on the Bitcoin L1 um we we all came together um again

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   about 15 14 months ago and started building infrastructure for the runes protocol that started off with our own runes chronical index uh LED on to portfolio manager we launched our AC and mint service for uh creating new runes on the having when the runes protocol went live since then we built the first and only publicly available runes to salana bridge uh now three times audited and used by the likes of pups and billion dollar carat and all of the

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   leading major runes uh we hit tbls about 150 uh million in TBL and processed over 50 million in transactions on that side um so you know we've we've got a lot of experience kind of in all the different ecosystems and really excited to bring more functionality and more products to the Bitcoin space and a lot of our kind of epos is bringing this functionality like things happen slowly on the Bitcoin

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    side but by integrating other chains we're actually able to bring this functionality to the bitco to Bitcoin now um and propagate kind of the the utilization of Bitcoin assets so um you know it's been a really exciting Journey uh getting involved with the near Community we're working on a new upcoming product called run shot and this is going to be um a bonding curve experience uh to create new runes uh

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    we're utilizing near on the back end and with all of the chain abstraction to allow users to come in deposit their Bitcoin to begin with moving on to near and salana assets and then uh trade these new create and also trade these new exciting rooms in a fast cheap gasless environment and it's been a pleasure meeting everyone in the near space so far it's been a super warm welcome we've had a huge amount of support offered to us from everyone from the near team to proximity labs to all

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    of the other projects building so it's been a real pleasure kind of getting getting to know everyone and getting involved um and I'll hand it over to you for an introduction there Jeff I feel like you can press the whole show in two minutes there he summarize it all um I'm the CTO for R mine and I kind of leaded the dev efforts there and the team and yeah we've been we've been uh handsful

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    juggling with kind of just building all kinds of tooling for the runes ecosystem I personally you know was always kind of at the Forefront of the the other you know kind of like ecosystems that were being developed actively so back in 2020 that was you know all of D5 done D5 for a long time on evm and and always dipped my toes into what was uh what was new and and coming coming up so I did I did

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    some Terror stuff when when that was uh when was alive and kicking and I did some salana along the way and now doing some Bitcoin Dev stuff G up at the the again and uh yeah yeah we're happy to be working with with here we'll into all that no awesome awesome uh so just for people who maybe are are new to concept of runes uh can you just kind of from both a I guess enduser standpoint but then also maybe a technical standpoint

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    of what exactly are runes on on bitcoin like what does that actually mean for someone yeah I mean okay so it's like a it's what we call like a meta protocol right so it's it's like a a set of rules that people obey that uh kind of are work on top of Bitcoin so Bitcoin itself doesn't really have anything for tokens it doesn't even really have the scripting you know to let you build some

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    kind of a token contract but you know this one person decided to to write some rules saying that like hey if you send a transaction and in the little memo field if you will you say like hey I just minted something then we we'll have some indexers you know some offchain kind of component that looks at those transactions with that special you know um tag there and be like okay so this this there's a token we'll keep track of

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    it and then you can build apps and you can build uis using the data from those indexers so um it's kind of like doing everything that you would have done if you have Smart contracts but you you the the layer one if you will Bitcoin doesn't really know that it's happening um and and from that SP kind of a whole ecosystem of people that observe those you know those those rules and those erc20 if you will abstractions

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    yeah go ahead Jeff yeah so just you know kind of like the evolution um like originally Casey the founder of runs also released ordinals so you know nfts on bitcoin where the data is stored on the blockchain and that was kind of really the first innovation in this sense uh rooms works like differently to how ordinal did but there has been a bunch of other meta protocols that have come along uh in between kind of

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    ordinals and then what's now kind of what we believe as the dominant token standard moving forwards rooms are uh the closest to kind of uh the core Bitcoin layer themselves being stored within the utxo transactions and this makes it actually um it's it I'm not going to say it simple it makes it simpler to work with these than it has been with uh previous meta protocol standards it's still very complicated uh it takes a lot of innovative development to actually uh build products utilizing

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    these token standards there aren't there aren't any libraries or there haven't been any libraries or you know real kind of tooling for the developers so it's really been kind of like a groundup approach all the way hence why we started off building our own indexer oursel um and then everything from there it's you know it takes a huge amount of Dev hours to actually kind of get these things moving at the same time uh the runes

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    ecosystem it's still very nent but the speed that it's been growing is is insane like and there's there's always this joke that everything else was the test net and now we're on bitcoin and you know I I in the sense of the speed of development especially considering the limitations and how difficult it is to actually build with uh with Bitcoin um the speed of development is crazy you know we've got collateralized stable

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    coins we've got um PID short and holding stable coins like the aena model we've got amm being built out and everyone has to kind of take their own different approach to it there's a there's a fair amount of offchain computation that happens there's a fair amount of tradeoffs that have to happen but we've actually seen the kind of the Bitcoin ecosystem more and more open to this idea that maybe there is some tradeoffs that have to happen to actually bring

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    this functionality at least in the in the very near term until we have more more underlying codes such as opcat that might enables more smart contract functionality so um and you we're seeing more and more chains integrating it from ICP to near to all of these other blockchains that want a piece of this pie um and there's there's a lot of innovation coming in that space right now yeah it seems like from someone

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    who's not building in that specific space that some of the things that are happening on other chains and again I'm using near here as the example but being able to do things like through uh you know intense chain abstraction that you now do can go almost that one step further where like you have this you have this meta layer and you can start to build out some things that are similar to Smart contracts but now you

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    can actually build smart contracts on other chains but interact with the protocol on on bitcoin is that right is that how you guys are thinking about stuff yeah I'll jump in um yeah you know exactly um there's there's there's always kind of like different steps that you have to take to bring this functionality in but by you know the the initial phases were very much to um kind of take this into some new offchain computation that people had buil um but

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    the realization that actually when you can kind of offhand a lot of this onto existing blockchains with large sets of decentralized node operators and have this functionality especially what n some of the functionality that n gives us to actually interact directly with the Bitcoin L1 it's becoming more and more like especially as time goes on it's easier and easier to interact with the L1 from another chain have again

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    near as a great example have your accounts have everything managed by smart contracts on the near side but then keep those assets kind of based on the L1 um and this is really I think kind of where things are moving forwards to where Bitcoin can become this unifying kind of Hub of users and assets you know if you have a Bitcoin asset why why not have a bit if you can utilize your Bitcoin asset on other chains or utilize it from other chains then why wouldn't you want it as a Bitcoin asset where you know that like the Bitcoin

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    blockchains essentially never going to go down we're all here we kind of believe that so why not have these assets and everything based around Bitcoin and then have all these other chains kind of plug into it in different ways that allow us to to interact with it and bring this functionality that's interesting you maybe you can talk a little bit about some of the uh I guess maybe the architecture that you have in place

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    today uh and then what does some of the things of bringing these other chains online start to do and change your architecture of how you think about building some of the stuff well I guess you got to specify which product right like the bridge itself is uh is is something that's just you know moving funds across the bridge if we're talking specifically about the what we're building with with uh with

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    near which is a spon shot product um I mean the idea is really about it's really focused on on those users of Bitcoin or like getting that native experience of they they already have a wallet they know they they're not necessarily you know the most keen on um signing up for a different blockchain or transferring assets there and then having like a different wallet that they got to use to make operations there and even if it's their you know their their

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    Bridge Bitcoin assets over there so really it's about using um you know near meta transactions and and relaying uh so that they can avoid you know even thinking about gas assets or gas fees uh to give them experiences where they they land on the app they colnect their Bitcoin wallet and all they do is sign one message their account is created a key is created for you know most of the the

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    common transactions and then they don't need to even sign anything or pay any gas and they get to you know interact with def if you will right so more more specifically the architecture there is like um we're using uh toi protocol is is another project building on the year and they've uh did the hard work of um writing kind of a a smart contract for near that does the same thing that uh the near intense.

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    org demo and I'm sure if you remember from U the the the last conference uh where they demoed you know just using an evm wallet and signing a message and being able to have that uh become you know transactions that that land on year so they did the same thing for Bitcoin wallets basically uh where you sign from your wallet and you're signing you you can see the adjacent of the the the near you know transactions and and that

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    you're intending to sign there and um the the smart contract will just permissionless you know have the have this account that's on here that's controlled by that Bitcoin wallet by recovering the public key there for that so um yeah we're we're using that to to kind of really make make that experience what we wanted it to be for our users while still using you know near near for smart contracts yeah no that that's really cool and I I was wondering as you

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    guys are planning some of the as you plan your road map and you think about how to approach this for your end users what are some of the things that you are constant like you want to make sure that like you're not letting go of I mean obviously like there is a very strong ethos around Bitcoin as a whole right and and that that is like for many the the purest form of what crypto is but then as you start to abstract some of the stuff does is there a point where

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    you start making development and design decisions to say what is the balance of what's best for our users versus sticking to some of these ethos I think I can uh kind of speak to that a little bit um in the sense that and I mentioned it a little bit earlier like there the the type of user that you're trying to activate here like there's we we talk a lot about unlocking the Bitcoin liquidity but um as as we've seen there is only so much of that liquidity that is being unlocked right

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    now I do believe as things move forwards and uh Bitcoin users become more comfortable with this we will see more and more of this kind of unlock happening and more of it being utilized but there's also a huge wave of users who are interested in Bitcoin want want Bitcoin exposure Bitcoin assets um and they may not even be native or they may now they may now be native so I think uh

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    like and there's also a lot of friction in the Bitcoin space you know everything is slow uh even getting set up with your wallets is slow so you know the there's there the kind of two types of users that we've got at the moment which are the people that have kind of got into the Bitcoin space learned how to use it and they are eager to experiment and do stuff you know most of the people in The Run space they're pretty interested in how can we

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    experiment how can we build on top of Bitcoin and there's much less of kind of like that maximalist uh impression of we can't change anything and and this is the beauty of the r protocol it doesn't change anything on bit coin because nothing has been changed at the under the protocol level and and also it's a permissionless decentralized blockchain so anyone's allowed to do whatever they like you're saying the Bitcoin ancient

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    Wells is just a meme they're not coming what I'm saying is I it's going to take a little bit longer uh I think I think the Wales are being unlocked but they're being unlocked uh slowly and you know a lot of these people they're not they're not ready to dive into the next big thing being built they they want to see this kind of progression happening so um whilst we are kind of working towards unlocking them there is a whole new wave of users coming to bitcoin right now who have been in salana have

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    been in these other ecosystems and I think activating them is kind of super important whether whether they're now coming in and they know the Bitcoin wallets and they're doing that or in future when we can add H you know salana wallet and near wallet uh abstraction into that as well and kind of take things across chain I think that that kind of gets really interesting but that I I do kind of think the attitudes to uh

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    Bitcoin maximalism are changing somewhat and someone explained it before kind of like the Boomers and the genz you know the people that have been in Bitcoin for 10 15 years and they they're happy with where they are they're not keen on change but there's a whole new wave of people that want to see this Innovation um and there's definitely more kind of tradeoffs that people are willing to take in their own personal risk like no one's really willing to risk it on bitcoin but they're willing to risk it

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    in own personal portfolio and get involved with these assets which aren't as secure or as stable as Bitcoin itself so I do think attitudes are changing in that sense right right no I mean that makes that makes a ton of sense and like for for yourselves I mean as you are building out uh these products especially again now as you are expanding to work more with near uh I was reading through your blog posts you're working with multiple different chains to really bring in some different

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    experiences is this something where then the goal is not only just to allow you guys to build a better product but to eventually allow more developers to build on top of you like so it becomes now one more you know abstracted layer for certain things I I don't think we're really thinking in that direction I think again we're really focused on like you know solutions that get usage like on the users itself like your previous question it's like yeah it's not about Bitcoin Max Max is really more about there's this fresh blood in Bitcoin fresh

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    interest in Bitcoin and how how can we serve those users more right so yes we built some some stuff that's kind of like public goods for for runs itself like just like tools you can use and um and we do have this this indexer that we're we're running that like you know we're we're hoping is like a competing implementation that that that people get to you know if teams reach out to us and they're like hey like we're building this up we need some data for like we're we're happy to share that I don't think

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    we're really building kind of like a um as a a bigger picture of focus and like here here's an SDK here's some kind of like like way to you know build all kinds of apps on top of us right we're really more focused on products that people end up using day today yeah but just just to add to that I think the the side of it where we are doing that is through kind of just direct Integrations of what we're building we we actually

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    just um we had our first major integration with the runs.com platform they've fully integrated our bridge on their back end now so in in that sense yes there is there is the capability for projects to work with us and to have our infrastructure helping them uh facilitate things for their for their uh users but not necessarily building on top of what we've already got in any kind of huge sense right right no I I like to make that distinction because one of the things that I've been fairly

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    passionate about especially talking with different projects is that there is sometimes a blurry line between that of like am I building a product am I building more infrastructure what am I actually providing and it's nice to hear that you guys yeah absolutely and so I it's nice to hear that you guys are really saying like look we have a product in mind like this is where we're trying to go and we think we can execute on it best and for

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    me like that is actually somewhat refreshing to hear because I would love to see more productized items versus just again more again more infra more things that require someone else to really execute on top of well you know it's uh it's much easier to sell a new blockchain or a new L2 uh uh1 billion valuation so you know I think that's there's there is a lot of that going on in the space and there's probably more than is necessary at this point our approach has always been product first

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    rather than anything else you know we're only currently in our um community Community token round moving to tge at um first week of February yet we've built and had our Bridge audited free times it's been functioning it's been usable this entire time so we're we're very much focused on actually building the tools that users use and then if if that is useful to other projects to integrate to then brilliant we're we're

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    more than happy to kind of expand out in that way but we're not kind of selling a uh you know a pipe dream at this point we're selling actual products yeah no that that's that's great um if you don't I want to pull up the actual uh rine site and just talk a little bit about like uh what that experience is and where you guys are today um do you want me to show what when you guys want to show it's up to

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    you yeah if you can bring it up yeah I can absolutely bring that up let me just make sure uh I'll bring up the app dot r m that the one you want that the best one to show yeah yeah yeah that was okay okay here we go so here's the here's the page make get a little bit easier to see there you go so yeah you know this is this is our rooms screener um it shows um all of all of the different rooms

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    that have been being launched um and you know when you see the actual numbers of rooms that have been launched today like it is pretty it's pretty crazy to see how much interest and how much excitement there is being developed um and you know this again this was kind of like part of our kind of General Public Service Goods that we wanted and and that's also the interesting thing about

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    building in a space like we are is there was basically nothing when we started there was there was there was no protocol uh yet to be used um and the protocol itself has only been alive for like eight months now or something like that so um so we started off with the screener uh to allow people to kind of you know see what was happening in the space from there we built some tooling um if

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    you click up on the tools button um so this is our ET and mint uh functionality so that you can create a room Define uh Define all of your parameters for the room uh we then built a transfer function so that you can send uh rooms to other people and as well a utxo splitter because there's there's huge issues in the Bitcoin space with um you know having having all the having all your Bitcoin in one utxo um so these

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    were again you know tooling as we were kind of working through what what were going to be the most useful things uh to people from there we then built out our portfolio page so that users can come in Connect their wallet um if you had a Bitcoin wallet it'd connect and it' show you all of the runes that you're holding um and we're we're looking to kind of build out that functionality much more uh into kind of like a full coin uh coin market cap styled page where users can

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    like really kind of interact build out their portfolios maybe watch uh watch stuff and kind of keep track of everything that's going on and then finally our bridging functionality uh as you will see as well if you click on the billion dollar cat there we now have uh we actually just activated five more runes uh the other day um so we now have a list of about uh 12 different runes as

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    well as SPL assets so it's not only been at the runes ecosystem that have been interested to move over to salana but we've actually had interest from salana projects to kind of state their claim in the Bitcoin space we've launched three of them so far and we had been in discussions with some of the largest uh mcoins on salana who were were pretty close to launching rooms have got a bit more quiet but um we're ongoing discussions about potentially getting

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    some of the really big projects to kind of state their claim in the runes ecosystem and really kind of solidify runes as the only uh option on bitcoin these days interesting interesting so uh couple different things let's let's start here with with this part the bridge here what does it mean for a user to bridge a rune to salana well like what is that actually look like I'll let I'll let you rotate this

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    for um what do you mean by what does it mean right like is it is it the same as if I am just transferring tokens and so now you are minting those tokens on Salena um what is what what's happening that experience yeah I mean I think maybe a good thing is we got to talk about motivation right the the the real idea behind this is that salana has you know decks and amm and and trading in in lower G gas cost and um so we're we're just meting ANL there on that side so

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    that um you can go and trade it you know on those amm there or hold it easier or um yeah yeah specula in price or people can buy it on salana and then once they've you know accumulated it back they can bring it back in custody at on bitcoin if you will right um but really it's just it's it's a mxic bridge that takes in custody you know the tokens on the The Source chain on bitcoin and then mins the the corresponding amount on the

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    destination chain nice okay yeah that that I mean that makes sense and I mean it's so it sounds like the goal here with a lot of that that stuff is really about again probably like liquidity access right um it's it's enabling all this yeah the actual usage of the token without the pain of you know like a 10in transaction plus like a $15 fee for every time you're trying to do one thing

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    with the token right right um so I think yeah most projects are are doing this kind of thing where they're kind of yeah floating that to a to a to a different chain or a different you know offchain something uh and only settling back to bitcoin is kind of a concept yeah okay that makes sense yeah absolutely um and then I think uh one thing I'd love for you guys to do where uh there's a lot of

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    different terminology in in Bitcoin that again if you've been working on Smart contracts and you're working in like you know ethereum near Sal whatever else like some of this terminology is definitely a little bit different uh so from just a technical developer standpoint can we just talk through a little bit some of the terminology for people to better understand what some of the stuff is happening here uh maybe we can start with things like again terms

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    like ET um you know utxos things like that yeah you kind of need the crash course to figure out what's going on in this whole rues thing this uh this guy that that that that bered at Casey he kind of has a knack for for intricate words for for very regular things but um etching is effectively creating a token um and uh every token needs to have a unique name so that way there's

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    no confusion right when you get the name you secure it nobody can do a copy or duplicate and try and scam you on whatever um but because they're unique you didn't like the the like short and really you know prestigious ones are not available yet so the names are all kind of like longish right it started at 12 characters and over time smaller character ones unlock uh so you pick a name you pick an amount of like decimals or or numbers after the the the decimal

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    right um you get to pick a symbol which is kind of like a more like a you got to think about it more like a a currency symbol right so instead of a dollar sign you can pick like most people pick like an emoji but it could be a letter a number M and that's kind of like the the denomination of that uh of that token and um it works on this kind of uh concept of like an open Mint or like a like a fair mint if you will um like the

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    the the its kind of predecessor the BRC 20s uh were working uh which which was pretty popular it's kind of a way to get distribution for a meme token uh without the users paying anything else than the the gas fee right so uh you pick a total Supply and you pick a number of tokens that are minted every time some somebody you know pays the gas fee and sends a Bitcoin transaction and says I want to M

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    like one lot or one amount of this new you know token um so say it's a th000 and the max Supply is you know 21 million then you'll have something like uh 21,000 people that can b a token um and and get a share of it before it's uh it's kind of minted out and then whatever's in circulation is is what the the supply for this token is right um yeah and there's a way to reserve Supply which means just to keep a certain you know amount for yourself as the creator of this token and there's a way to uh limit the the block range

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    within which uh the minting happens so if you want it to end or to at least like whatever total Supply it ends up at after block X well then you can kind of put put that an end in there or you can make it start at a certain time what does that mean to uh stop at at a particular block so if it doesn't fully mint it that's the supply yeah that's the supply that's whatever it landed

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    that so so be it interesting yeah so this open Mint is is useful for for for exactly for a certain kind of of token but uh if if you kind have a project that's a bit more like in in the traditional kind of sense where you're going to do like a sale somewhere or you want to use it for like utility most of the time you probably just reserve the whole Supply you know Min it all to yourself and then you'll distribute yourself like you'll distribute it

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    yourself to your users you know over time or keep a slice or you know like you can do the more traditional just minting a token for for for for sake right um yeah and then um yeah let's talk a little bit about because the the Crux of all of this if you are building here is like is the utxos and I think there is definitely important concept yeah it's the concept I think maybe is if they if you ever go through it you start to see

73. 32:21

    how it connects to something similar to writing to a Smart contract but it is still the kind of different in is not as straightforward yeah it it is a very loaded thing and a very core thing it's hard to put succinctly but if if we were talking specifically about runes and trying to educate about runes itself um runes made this decision that you know yes it's all kind of a meta protocol

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    it's all just in messages that are tacked on to you know transactions but the balance of Rune you have is the is is always associated with a utxo so a bit like in Bitcoin you have multiple unspent transaction inputs utxos in your wallet and your balances the sum of all of those because you could spin all of them together um runes also live on utxos so when you Mint one there'll be a utxo in that that

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    transaction minting that will have you know almost zero Bitcoin on it just enough to to exist but the runes balance will be associated with it and over time if you go into the marketplace and you buy some there then you'll have multiple utxos with a balance of that run token in in them right and so your balance is the sum of the balance that's held on all of those utxos um so a bit like with Bitcoin um

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    when you're dealing with you know buying or selling on the native L1 uh marketplaces like like magic Ean uh you end up having to take your runes balance and say split it up in a couple utxos you know lots of a certain size if you want to sell $2,000 of the the Rune uh the the token you got to split it in like a 1,500 tokens here 1,500 token there and then I'll s I'll sell those for this price you know um because there's no smart contract that can just debit from your total balance

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    right that's not recorded somewhere it's all living Associated to utxo right right right interesting um for for your your yourself as someone who's designing these products and everything and building this out is it something where you know I know you guys are trying to build some layers on top of this to simplify all the Sals but is it something where you feel the need to eventually go back and contribute to the larger bcoin protocol is it something that you say look we're just going to

78. 34:53

    work within the bounds or do you feel the need to kind of be more activists around stuff as you guys are trying to drive uh General development here okay I think the the consensus here is that there needs to be a little extra unlock at the core protocol level to enable much more you know wild and and crazy um building on bitcoin L1 and I think I think it's hard for any individual or individual organization to take that head on you know especially you know the reward is is very um

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    unknown cuz who knows if we're going to even be able to lend another big change on bitcoin L1 right so but there there's very smart people out there um that have been putting out you know uh research papers and and theories and like okay this is how we could unlock the next you know you know like like defi era on bitcoin and we're we're monitoring all of those closely and really thinking about what we could be building with

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    those the second they land but but until they do I think we're kind of yeah everybody's kind of exploring what we can do in the fringes or with other you know chains other offchain stuff until um either something like um bit VM becomes more concrete or something like upcat uh which is just a very simple but one more um operator or like script op code if you will lands on bitcoin and if if that does happen then we'll see we'll see kind of a new flurry of innovation on L1 but that's not really kind of like

81. 36:28

    for us to tackle if we we want to have results and and and stay alive yeah yeah yeah for sure and for you guys I mean how much of your development road map is purely focused on just executing on what you know you can execute on versus again trying to uh innovate and I don't I mean like change changes on the protocol itself but just for yourselves of like trying to push the boundaries of of x

82. 37:01

    sorry could you could you repeat that I missed that one I mean I think I think um the question is around like how much we we're doing you know like like pushing the boundary really innovating or just really going about like after serving users or their needs that that I think we're really trying to mix both you know uh day and day out we we started out with with simple tools but like I don't think we're we're going after we we don't want to go about the

83. 37:25

    like after the the really simple or really basic stuff stuff uh anymore so we like I mean this whole thing with near is is kind of like pushing the envelope and merging two things together and and so so yeah I mean I I think I think we're trying to do both at the same time is the answer right without without considering something that would require Bitcoin L1 like change right

84. 37:48

    that's the only limitation there but uh yeah we're on the lookout and like I said we're we're following that so that the second that that's actually you know viable or seeming like it's going to it's going to land soon then we're willing to go and do the R&D to be like okay this is brand new nobody's ever built on this but let's like we we can make it happen for users this will require you know some uh some some research and some some making it happen

85. 38:12

    but once we do you know it it'll unlock this new experience for users which will be great absolutely no I mean that makes a ton of sense that that's a nice transition to I think you know I want to kind of wrap here a little bit talking more specifically about near you guys kind of touched on it a little bit um but can we just kind of talk through uh what exactly you are integrating from near how you plan that

86. 38:38

    this is you know what kind of product comes out of this what how again maybe how do you see this continuing in the future to maybe expand on what you're doing so from a from a high level I can kind of the the first product that we're building is called run shop um and it will allow users to uh you know speed up the the enjoyment and the um the excitement around uh launching tokens on bitcoin we want we want to streamline the process and make make creating

87. 39:12

    assets on bitcoin fun and exciting as we've seen kind of the success of this that's happened on other blockchains like salana so you know you utilizing near in this way actually allows us to build out this this protocol product that uh users can deposit their assets into trade against them and then um and then at the end whether they choose to sell sell the runes back to the bonding curve or not they can then withdraw those assets using the uh master keys so

88. 39:44

    they have kind of control over it the whole time from there we're actually looking to expand this to a full runes trading terminal um and that will allow the trading of existing rooms um so that users will be able to bring bring rooms over deposit them in and then this will allow that kind of that fast cheap trading experience as natively as possible to the Bitcoin L1 where users

89. 40:09

    kind of really retain control um and yeah you know these these two products will also interact really nicely with each other as users once once a product's been launched on Rune shot um it will and it escapes the bonding curve it will then be able to move straight over to uh the trading terminal so this is like you know this is kind of our really high level move to uh bring bring

90. 40:34

    bring much more interest back to the Run space at the moment um I think useru can kind of touch on how we're doing that a little bit more yeah I mean it's uh it's yeah like for now it's it's really about that that abstracting the the the the the wallet creation or the gas or everything like that but in in the back end um yeah when we're bridging those assets you know when when the users will Bridge BTC um it'll be did like the Satoshi protocol Bitcoin on the actual near chain using

91. 41:09

    you know the standard um token contracts and everything so really if they were aware enough they could open up any near app and look in the wallet and be like oh I have this Bitcoin that has those amm pools I can trade against I have those you know all those Rune tokens that you know run mine did in their R shot app which looks like just like a pump. fun whatever but really all of those individual tokens I purchased they're just there in my near wallet and

92. 41:40

    uh they have those amm pools now because you know with with actual liquidity uh so so kind of like the the world is the oyster for near if if they really were adventurous enough to to to to you know to to to venture in that world I think uh that's the the the advantage of you know building on on on standards and building on on other protocols instead of really just kind of like keeping everything um in just like one smart contractor or just like as numbers on a sheet instead of yeah exactly building on on on standards

93. 42:12

    um and I think past that yeah this opens up the door for a lot more different products that have maybe a a different clientele than uh the people you know just like meme or token trading which is kind of like the current meta but like there's there's some kinds of more long-term things or more uh products that are maybe fitting a bit more in the defi narrative is something that new that we can't even really think about

94. 42:34

    that uh that could be build upon that for sure yeah no I mean I could see you guys yeah obviously you could span the D5 piece of it um you know maybe some real world tokenization stuff uh I could see people looking towards that especially around you know being able to settle onto onto Bitcoin really kind of makes a difference there too of like you know uh the the ultimate Ledger of of what things where things are so uh really interesting stuff

95. 43:05

    and for for you guys uh going forward here what is you know the the next step like where what what's uh what's the next couple months look like for you guys um going forward here so I we're we're actually currently uh coming up to our tge um and then we'll be looking to get the beta for room shot out um I think we're kind of targeting and and somewhere around the end of February at moment um obviously everything's kind of changing as we go

96. 43:39

    through the development process um so that that will happen uh we actually have a Bitcoin L2 expansion to our Bridge as well um so this is going to bring allow liquidity to flow from salana to bitcoin L2 as well as from runes to bitcoin L2 and that's kind of going to open up some more gateways from there you know like as we developing this Tech with near there's the very real possibility of kind of activating near on our main Bridge um and that that could also open up uh the floodgates to

97. 44:11

    a whole lot more kind of interactions between these networks um and then you know on top of that where the trading terminals come in there there is a Bitcoin collateralized lending um product that's potentially uh in the works um so we're really kind of innovating on a lot of fronts and the beauty is a lot of these products actually uh like the dev lift comes from other products you know even room shot comes from our ET and mint products uh now integrating there once once we have

98. 44:43

    this built out the ability to kind of add another layers on top of that um really opens up the doors to what we're able to kind of build and uh you know the functionality that we're able to bring to users whether they're coming from the Bitcoin space or from the these other ecosystems so it's really kind of just about bringing as many people together um and giving them a user experience that they're not used to on

99. 45:04

    bitcoin or if they are used to a user experience from another ecosystem allowing these users to come in interact with the Bitcoin ecosystem but in a manner that they understand at some point with the with the wallets that they used to um and you know um just kind of bring that bring that excitement and interest back to back to bitcoin um and that's I think that's kind of like the the main focus at this point that's awesome yeah no I look I I really appreciate you guys um really trying to

100. 45:36

     innovate and try to build and focusing on on product as I was saying earlier like we interview a lot of people here and so much of it gets caught up in just trying to enable other developers but which is great and don't me wrong like that is a big piece of it but it's nice to see also um some teams trying to really focus on product and being able to ship something that end users can uh

101. 46:00

     really get behind as well so uh definitely excited to see that we appreciate that and you know we uh we ship at ridiculous speeds you know it's uh everyone's working crazy hours um and it's really kind of been a process you know this industry moves really fast so for us it's important to get these products out get them get them into the users's hands and you know no one knows what's going to happen with these cycles and how how things are going to carry on but we're we're super we're we're

102. 46:30

     working literally as hard as we could H to get these products out to users and get and get get them involved with what we're doing yeah no that's great that that's really great to see uh awesome stuff uh any last thing you guys maybe want to just kind of end on anything we may missed or over I think this was really informative I'm glad we got to go over some of the technical components of

103. 46:53

     how this all kind of works together but uh anything you guys want to end on uh just um you know on our end uh TG is coming up uh we do currently have a open round available for anyone that wants to get in before we actually get to that point uh it's called M Genesis it's live on our page we're releasing update after update and announcement after announcement with from Partnerships to uh teams that we're

104. 47:20

     working with uh another thing I probably forgot to mention earlier on is we are in discussions with a bunch of wallets even centralized exchanges looking to integrate our Solutions on the back end so there's going to be announcements coming out about that there's going to be um announcements coming out about the products as we kind of release more information uh moving forwards so it's you can see our timeline at the moment

105. 47:44

     we're currently on multiple announcements every single day so the best thing for anyone that's interested to kind of like learn more is just follow us on there also jump in our Discord as well because we have a really great set of mods and we're as a team we're in there really regularly kind of sharing you Alpha answering questions that anyone has uh and if you have any Integrations or any any any teams out

106. 48:08

     there looking to kind of work alongside us integrate our Bridge or looking for information on our on our indexer uh just jump in the Discord open a ticket you can send us a DM on Twitter but we get a lot that goes through there so yeah you're way you're way better off just jumping in the Discord open a ticket and we're we're super interested to talk to everyone from the near ecosystem or any other ecosystem uh and

107. 48:32

     see how we can work together because you know that's really how we're kind of gon to continue to grow uh this new ecosystem is by working with other projects and that's something that the near ecosystem has been so great since we've started you know everyone who we've talked to has been super helpful and really really grateful for the welcome that we've had here in the near near ecosystem that's awes awesome to hear uh

108. 48:55

     well I I really appreciate you guys coming on today talking talking us through I certainly learned stuff um this was cool to see and I wish you both uh the best of luck with this thank you guys much thank you told you uh great stuff guys this was fun uh I certainly learned a lot I hope you guys did too uh from a development standpoint as you can see a lot of opportunity there uh a lot of different ways to actually go about uh what

109. 49:25

     they're building but uh it's nice to see a team come on and talk about product and things like that uh couple just you know minor housekeeping stuff that I mentioned at the beginning of the show uh so you can follow along on our newsletter we have lots of stuff you know being updated there regularly there is a lot happening in the ecosystem right now uh tomorrow we have a chain

110. 49:49

     abstraction Workshop uh here uh so that will be live tomorrow 5:00 P PM UTC uh com check that out come learn about again integrating some of the stuff around chain abstraction we've done a few different workshops in the past um just again another one refresher you can always come and ask questions if you have questions as well during during that show uh as well so make sure you

111. 50:12

     check that out uh I will end with uh we have some great guests coming up uh the following next few weeks here uh next week we are uh doing an episode on sec contract auditing uh that will be really great that's a good one for developers even non-developers just to learn how this what security needs to go into contracts you're moving your money around it's good to know how all that uh works and how security and auditing all

112. 50:42

     actually works and what it means when a contract actually gets audited things like that uh we then going be talking you know through February talking to uh some wallet makers we have some other different developers coming on we're doing some stuff at all different spaces including uh near AI uh as well again if you have any questions please reach out to us uh really you know excited to hear

113. 51:05

     feedback of what people are looking for especially as we do some more workshops coming up so make sure you're following along uh devhub handle is here in my title make sure you're you're following that as well as subscribing to the newsletter uh to get those updates each and every every week uh but until tomorrow for the workshop at 5:00 pm on chain abstraction uh I'm your host and we will see you again both this time

114. 51:28

     next week and tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. UTC thanks all bye-bye