Contract Standards Community Group Call #3 – NEAR DevHub September 27th, 2023

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

1. 0:05

   everybody well thank you for showing up for uh this follow-up to the Contra for a contract standards Community call we're going to be talking again today a little bit about the multi-token semi-fungible token standard and um progress on the reference implementation and what we might be able to do to help move it forward or incentivize people to finish out a reference implementation

2. 0:34

   um so this is a community call it'd be pretty open we're really only discussing that one topic today and everybody else added anything to the agenda but if something comes up please feel free to uh bring it up if we have time and I guess we'll get right into it um so Robert do you want to talk through some of your thoughts that we uh went through a couple weeks ago yeah so hi everyone um and yeah I mean like the topic we want to discuss is a little bit bigger yes so

3. 1:07

   how to like really move this uh forward um so over the last weeks we um we were chatting about the problem that many of ideas are stagnated not moving forward and how we can solve it so um I prepared like a short document let me uh let me share it here so let me present it uh one second all right can you see it yep um right so like the problem here I want to discuss is a little bit wider big area so how to uh move with the contract standard forward and unblock them

4. 2:07

   um firstly I want to like say that I mean we have a few very good contract standards that made directly from the community or from the projects that we're working and they wanted contribute and move it towards Community to um to present the standard it's also I think like a lot of learning for for the project and the community and there are a lot of values is why to do the standard um why to do that to do a standard

5. 2:39

   um mainly the biggest value is to establish a common interface um which can be used by virus order protocols and tools to integrate with and basically to compose so I wanted to like say a few problems we have currently so first off firstly yes like we see that in ethereum um because they have huge Community a lot of Innovations are happening there and then um other communities are trying to copy

6. 3:12

   this Innovation and adapt um we observed that many projects proposed standards are just copies of the elps sometimes it's good because it was validated by a large community and life projects so it's not that I'm against personally about computer AAP and make a lid out of it but it's really often requires a bit more uh thinking and and did more validation uh and in fact this is what uh like matches the multiplicand standard

7. 3:49

   uh perfect Stadium sorry all right um so whenever we do the standard ideas we regularly need to do the research we need to do the homework and see if um what was for EAP uh really works well with for new as we know near is different because a new year is not evm although yes we have Aurora but uh neural runtime is different yes we are not limited to both on the language and the computation model of the evm so to summarize uh we need more engagement for drafting this innovation

8. 4:42

   and also the the validation um and one thing I want to present here is the idea of the hackathons so with accountants we often um create the boundaries for projects which we are going to promote both is a perfect example of that however it's good to um notice that uh hackathon is a perfect place for testing new approaches right so like when you ask someone what's a hackathon about probably the first think you will mention it won't be like

9. 5:21

   uh skip this night being tired uh networking right but the goal in fact is to move forward yes we want to move forward either with the existing project do the validation show it up to the community uh test it validated and this is exactly what we want for the contract standards validated and tested right so like having the opportunity that for um in real life hackathon and we can discuss architectures collect

10. 5:54

    ideas solve problems brainstorm approach problems that you may not encounter when you do it alone um discuss Integrations promoted with other projects and Foster essence of the community so all of it is already a validation um right so foreign having more feedback of course also helps us to um uh to act and see how we can address the ideas we are presenting and the community expects so going to The multi-talken Standard

11. 6:43

    there are two um so initially it was started I don't remember what's the project name which created the multi-looking standard but basically um there was a network so initial version was a copy of heavy influenced by the EIP um 1155 so 1155 and standard monitorium um and then it was used by by different projects and not only I know that openforce has its own version and we would like we already propose them yes to um to engage

12. 7:33

    and there is this um multi-token a telegram Channel where I'd rather one would like to engage um if invited and and talk with uh the dev happiest has many bumpers so if something is needed we can always discuss um there are different programs yes how um how to move forward with um with the standard work um so the initial um the initial proposal which is already merged um to um asinet is still not approved

13. 8:19

    so it's the first draft and let's stand up um 25. and it requires more work yes so there is one initial implementation like I said open Force protocol has another implementation um and the outstanding problems which have to be discussed are related to the bridging solution so if you want enable the cross um built between ERC 1155 tokens and um multi-talken 245 yes then uh there are a few issues especially the 1165 also represents some

14. 9:18

    non-flangeable tokens some people propose that to Port the 1155 directly to ethernet to either fungible seconds or non-fungible tokens that doesn't match all the time I know personally few projects related to the energy sector that specifically want to combine in a single contract the fungible token so like in the multi-pakistan that represents um then gaming gaming Finance projects and needs seamless interoperability between various kinds of assets

15. 10:01

    that ERC 1155 enables so we are mainly we need the validation we need to see how this can be used before um before moving out of the draft mode and um Enterprise so that result there are few people who want to do but since they don't have a time and um I discussed like a few proposals how we could enable it how we could uh incentivize this work so my comment would be that well first of all 11 55 does not look like

16. 10:49

    what we have right now in multi tokens I guess I feel like um the multi-token standard that we currently have was mostly influenced by the ft and nft contracts that were standards that we already have in near space rather than the 1155 itself like events and the arguments and the function names were all from existing Tech basically um in year and I don't see much of a influence from yearcl15 besides the fact that it just

17. 11:29

    talks about the concept of mixing ft and nft in one contract I mean actually the I mean okay we could like describe like how much influence is that how much influence is another I mean when I see the the functions definition and description like here for example the approval the whole approval mechanism um there are a few things which are I don't see it in 1155 at all or uh 1155 has approval mechanism

18. 12:12

    if I remember correctly well it's said approval for all is approved for all like uh whatever I mean as you said I don't see any reason to to be like just copy pasting and my point was that there is not much to copy paste to begin with right so your proposal was to have to host some hackathon to announce it more widely in order to validate to test it out um yeah it's just open invite either for a team who is like listening

19. 12:55

    yes to move forward validate um present in an idea with a hackathon that could be a bounty for a hackathon um related to that very successful validation and showing how do you see the validation what would be the result of validation yeah um good question so MVP working MVP uh with uh good documentation so talking about the consequences considerations what worked what didn't work um kind of like a document explaining

20. 13:32

    the thinking process to make sure that the research was done right so not only the working product but also providing an explanation or justification yes why this is a right approach okay I wonder like it is a lot of work and um I'd always see the value and having a bounty there um but who would be the judges and who would be the um participants how do you like do you see somebody from New York System internally and would be the participants or do you want to engage with somebody

21. 14:20

    outside of the ecosystem right so if we do the uh if you do uh let's say GitHub academ IES are Judges what would be the well how do you imagine the next steps after the hackathon uh and I think they're not who will be finalizing them ah the team the team who was taking the tenant okay so I yeah my point is that maybe we

22. 15:29

    need to also prepare them too do you put these follow-ups because without that the evaluation would be just another standard basically like one more standard in index system so that is my concern uh why one more I mean as isn't that uh known meme of having like we we need one one standard to rule them all and then we have n plus one standard index system yeah but that's different right like we

23. 16:04

    need standards to uh for compulsability and for Integrations with the with the tools that's the whole idea about the standards and also it's like a perfect learning um example uh when someone is for example reading how the net 141 works it's a good learning about this you know the solution design um a good composability screening sorry the Affinity mirror is uh gonna be in the recording so oh uh you mean um yeah yeah

24. 16:43

    okay thank you uh there is a question in in the chat uh so I'll do do you want to maybe speak to it oh yeah I was just wondering if the idea would be to do the hackathon prior to you know the um you know the standard being approved or if it's if it's uh something that would be done after um you know the standard is approved um I think someone responded here Max responded I think it would be prior is that is that correct is that what you

25. 17:16

    had in mind uh Robert I think the whole point yes to to to battle test the the the pieces of standard that already exists and then the the challenges that the implementation May surface to us when we actually try to use it so I feel like that is the whole idea of the hackathon to solidify the standard only after we have real like information that it actually works and we can compare did it diverge from the standards why

26. 17:49

    can we do better other still unresolved problems I guess as far as I remember there were like challenges around interface uh design of like what to what to return when we have like get get balance in and in um fungible token it's clear it's just a number in non-fungible token it's also clear it's the presence like metadata of the token that you're owning or not in multi multi-talk token standards it's not clear because you have potentially several tokens and each of

27. 18:27

    them can be instances of those so it was yeah a bigger question of like what what will be the uh useful method not just you know whatever let's return whatever so the question was to and even potentially test it from the wallet side uh with wallet users would need um and maybe games because they I feel like games are the most prominent users of multi-talking standard so stuff like this at least how I view it Robert correct me from wrong

28. 19:08

    yeah so two things yeah so what I mentioned at the beginning Foster innovation all right so you can propose a new standard which is like missing so you can identify okay I have this this idea but to implement it correctly I cannot do it in a way however yes and high cutter can give you the opportunity to really validate it um and that's like the first step uh or move forward with the existing open problems we have so the other one is

29. 19:40

    invited to create an issue discuss about like no what's missing um from um in the near as a new Improvement proposal right so we should also you know think that any pet is is really an idea of and what how you can improve maybe multiple standards 90 like a standard could be overloaded as a word here if you see how ethereum inside it works right so we have erc's and aips Improvement proposals and

30. 20:13

    interim request performance um so even for the fungible tokens yes there are many many approved let's call them eips and I think that that self serves the Innovation as well right we need to be open I mean if you really feel like I look in our uh real world examples yes like the word doesn't stops near you can say it's an improvement over another blockchain and through devop as well and um

31. 20:55

    yeah I mean cables you have USB version one version two version three um USBC it's not compatible with USBC one usb-a or the micro USB and there were there were reasons for that yes it's a long process I'm not saying that every hackathon or like every proposal will be finalized um or melt but it will leave a trace and good learning that we can reference in the following issues or following proposals so definitely um

32. 21:43

    we need to do research we need to like open open up this area for more uh for the community and uh and be open for this innovation yeah um you know I totally agree obviously Innovation and you know I think hackathon is a great idea to see you know how you know the standard could be implemented and all um but you know just to play Devil's Advocate a little bit there are you know you have open Force protocol

33. 22:18

    who is you know using their own solution here you have tenement which is the the Uncle Tony um implementation that you know um tenement yeah uh a-a-m-i-n-t um the other one but that's the one that Uncle Tony had posted initially and it had a few pending comments um and a little bit of feedback but other than that there wasn't much um you know contention around that one and so Uncle Tony unfortunately does not

34. 23:00

    have the time uh he's a member of our team he does not have the time to to kind of complete and address those comments but you know I was speaking to Ken earlier um uh Ken miyachi and he said that you know it's looking like it's less than a day's work to address the comments on that that implementation and so he would be willing to step in um where Uncle Tony's not able to at the

35. 23:24

    moment and address those comments and potentially move this forward um you know but with time being of the essence because um you know of course it's not just tenements it's not just open Forest protocol as a part of the near Horizon program we're seeing so many members um you know projects in that in that program that have a use case or would love to use the multi-token standard if of course it becomes a standard and so um you know time being of the essence

36. 23:55

    you know we would love to see this you know move forward and I understand there's a couple different uh trains of thoughts on you know do we create the perfect standard here or do we um you know Foster Innovation by you know moving it forward so we can see projects you to utilize it um especially the ones that have been utilizing you know some some version or or process you know uh you know similar to what would be standardized right and so that Horizon one program is it's

37. 24:30

    a two-month program where or I guess one six-week program where about two weeks into it now um we'll be meeting in near con of course and there's no shortage of games and other types of projects um that will really really benefit from this if it is you know completed and standardized in good time and so pens basically was saying that I can you know you know put an attestation to move forward he'll help complete and address any comments that are on that uh Implement uh reference implementation

38. 25:02

    there and he would be happy to move this forward because he thinks it's you know what you know he's saying that it's happened at the finish line and all that needs to happen is a guarantee that it will be approved and and we can you know we can move on because it's been years right and so you know unfortunately it's it's uh counterproductive to to seek the the perfect uh standard sorry bud go ahead

39. 25:31

    yeah so well the only reason it got stuck is that there was no real world world validation and uh ensure uh ensurement that they proposed interface will actually work for whoever will use them so there is no and and also the second point is I I don't see like a justification of not using the standards just because like you you don't need a standard to to implement something that will work for you um you only need standard to be

40. 26:05

    interoperable with the rest of the ecosystem so what my all my suggestion is always to build your own version that kinda looks like a um multi-talken or whatever standard test it out and then if like if you never looked into multi-talken maybe then look into it and compare how it works if you look good before propose the changes that needs to be there in order to serve your use case and that will be the best in like piece of

41. 26:38

    information for any piece of feedback that we can then act on and make sure that it's included in the design uh I was I was reviewing the the um the nap the multi-talken standards and identified some of the like problems with the interfaces and there were like several options how to solve them but there was no no way to validate which way is better than the other so they they indeed the change the changes there are minimal

42. 27:08

    and that needs to be addressed but the they're like we it's it's only one chance to do it right in a sense uh we will never look back because it will make that we need to support two versions of the multi-token standard and it's um it's really hard it's like if we can still do it with one version even ugly then that will probably be continuing on so it's better to design it really in a working way uh sorry Robert good yeah I just wanted to say that you know

43. 27:49

    um to move forward I would really like to see the comparison between the existing implementations in here and we were already calling out for a leader there was someone from open first protocol who wanted to see if we can move it forward from the open first protocol site um I don't know I didn't check the difference between the implementation however in fact we are at a good spot now if we

44. 28:18

    have two implementations because there is a competition and uh hopefully a good learning now that will be valuable for sure for ecosystem and I hope for them for the two projects as well yes because um in general writer learning um on the other hand like uh I don't agree that we just you know don't need to uh to do anything because as it was just said that Horizon already is working with projects which needs a standard and maybe are not capable to do

45. 28:56

    it they have other priorities and this is something we should understand as well meaning that um that we should also accept the community here right as a Dev hub yeah sure but uh how can we design the solution for for the project that we are not building for uh good question yeah so I was already proposing too yeah so either uh that had Bounty or a hackathon um for the case of the multi-token standard because this is like the worker

46. 29:38

    which already started more than a year ago uh the uh the best solution I'm not sure good with the solution but directly interacting with those two projects uh yes and and see like how um how we as a Dev happiness can can really support them um I totally support the idea of inviting the community Through the hackathon or through other means totally discuss in the past that if we if you do

47. 30:18

    a bounty I might be with some examples of ideas for uh new innovation new uh new Improvement proposals it doesn't mean that you know a project has to win right if someone is just basically copy pasting without the validation without like a good use case without good motivation then it won't qualify for that for a bounty so we we as a community should also ex now make sure that there is a value

48. 30:49

    value delivered so just to take a quick setback um because I want to make sure I'm understanding is the core need for a for a multi-token standard to make sure that we have a drop or ability with ethereum then I'm I'm like not entirely sure no we didn't talk about it we were talking about the interpret interoperability within the ecosystem is it near ecosystem to make sure that the

49. 31:21

    wallets can have Norm like interfaces that they care about uh that games have the interfaces they care about and for example boss also has interface it cares about it's just examples basically but well for for ft and nft those are wallets uh nft marketplaces care about nft standards uh uh um centralized exchanges care about the Ft interfaces they don't care nft interfaces so and also then explore and

50. 32:00

    any any like history viewers are hearing about not the interfaces of the how to interact with the contract but how to observe the state so the events were baked into those standards as well so these kind of concerns that needs to be um um considered it's not only about the smart contract implementation itself what makes sense from the smart contract perspective but from the users um like devtools and uh

51. 32:34

    like project services and wallets and exchanges marketplaces whatever makes sense so this is these are the concerns that needs to be interested like taken into account when we solidify the um design of the standard so I guess it's mostly like tools like wallets and indexers and things like that that kind of need to have a universal standard so they can parse that data okay okay

52. 33:11

    and there are certain limitations like how much data you can put in the in one event how much like you can transfer like can we transfer all the tokens can we transfer one of the token can we transfer um like batch of subset of tokens how would they look like and how like will they fit uh would that fit in within the gas limit so there are a bunch of considerations that needs to be taken into account and this and security when like we transferred part of it and then how do

53. 33:49

    we roll back if like if something goes wrong what what if we cannot roll back one of the asset that rolled back the rest of it um like yeah and actually like you know um all of that considerations are really good for a project because if someone is thinking and let me talk about it in that um training it as improvements right so all these considerations are so bad because this is a learning project this is like a good investment a project can do to propose and discuss a new Improvement

54. 34:28

    and see the community critics discover potential issues so what I'm trying to say is I don't know making an issue and sharing with the community's foundation or Improvement proposals it's could be also seen as a value added for a team who's researching that and and I want to do the work to propose a particular employment thank you and so what would the timeline look like on a hackathon obviously I'm just you know I'm cautious of the time

55. 35:18

    involved and you know further delay and all of that just because you know especially in this economy not you know projects have a limited you know Runway um of course right and so you know time is of the essence for so many of these projects um which are struggling to fundraise in you know and all of this and if you know they're they're game or or their nft or whatever it is or their whatever their their collectible is not viewable in a

56. 35:49

    wallet because this you know there's no standardization it it becomes you know counterproductive in a way so it's you know I guess my question would be in terms of a hackathon how long would that take to to organize and um you know to really gather all that feedback that you guys are you know you know say it would be valuable right how long does it take to organize a hackathon I mean it takes a lot of time to work and a lot of effort to organize a haircut and yes but that's like you know

57. 36:20

    many teams are engaged just to organize a hackathon like would it be part like how soon do you think this could be executed really oh yes uh well um well like usually hackathons are welcoming and different sponsors right so if there is a sponsor for a hackathon already here is already sponsoring my hackathons there are only half patterns there at the near Country the next hackathon uh I don't see

58. 36:53

    I mean probably a crow can um better I can answer that I don't believe we should be batching this task into regular hackathon as I already said hackathon the the hackathon that are all all the hackathons should have a theme otherwise it's uh it's a random mix of people with random skill um for this for standardization specifically we need not in app developers to to even try to tackle this problem with the people who

59. 37:31

    can actually attack this problem holistically and this is different type of crowd and they are limited around the world so I would totally make it 100 online event and dedicated to one single um topic agenda and can and maybe even launch it like next week I don't see any problem with that yeah and how many you know obviously there is a new new Hub right like update to Hoster haircut

60. 38:03

    and yeah yeah um how many desired like obviously as many as possible would be great but how many um submissions for the hackathon would be considered a suitable amount of feedback to you know move forward with a standardization so usually like you know for the standard I mean that depends right but um at least one strong verification and adoption is required the more the better I think it I mean

61. 38:44

    depends on the on the on the proposal on the uh and the Improvement proposal itself right to be honest because to me it sounds more like a bounty that we want to publish and uh just to yeah ask for as many contributors to to claim and try to provide the best um proposal there um because hackathon I don't know to me to me it doesn't click hackathon is something quick that you try

62. 39:21

    experimenting and and drop and standardization is opposite of that you need to put a lot of effort thinking through the whole like coordinate cases and and problems you may face so I'm I'm still not sold 100 on like terms of hackathon uh but yeah it could be a bounty with just a reward for yourself one finalize an app and uh yes it will only like start on kick it off and and provide some incentives to drive the innovation right so I don't see that

63. 40:00

    whole proposal will be finalized but um I see it as kind of a venue yes which can drive an innovation on the protocol level what I hear is you you suggest to just sit and wait maybe throw money sit and wait um type of like activity instead of just actually like asking specifically what is needed and how much you you we we can offer for that work this is what we are learning now maybe what we need is to go out and

64. 40:48

    Survey the people who need a multi-token standard for the things that they're building right and and what what considerations it would be helpful to know like what exactly it is that everybody needs because apparently this is a popular topic right um and if we're going to standardize something we need to be able to make sure that it's going to be inclusive of all the use cases that somebody's going

65. 41:12

    to have I almost think that we need those parameters before we could really even post a bounty necessarily of at least was kind of what's going through my head um it's kind of challenging to get everybody to weigh in but if if there is enough interest and it sounds like people think there's enough interest I think we should be collecting that kind of feedback and starting like an ongoing discussion which yeah absolutely there was someone from

66. 41:42

    New Horizon yes who said that good questions sorry not Max Ken from near Horizon um you know is a big supporter of moving this along as soon as possible and so you know once again to play Devil's Advocate if the goal of a hackathon is to get you know use case and and implementation um you know to refer to before standardization then you know we've already done that right because heneman has done it

67. 42:14

    um open Force protocol has done it and they've invested time and effort and and you know attention to it um Finance uses their multi-token standard uh I don't know what their use how they use it but but they use it somehow um there's I have a link here somewhere um and then yes it's here there's a there's a game um called Rogues that I don't know if they're using it yet um but they plan to use it few and far I remember previously mentioned that they would they have plans to use it I'm not sure if they're implementing it now

68. 42:47

    um and then ample um Kenny is usually on these calls I I guess he couldn't make it today but he is a big supporter of this as well and you know if you know to your point Max the one thing that's in common when I talk to all of these people is that it's not the it's not the details of what they need from the multi-token standard it's that they need the multi-token standardized and and then they they will

69. 43:11

    work through that um as opposed to um you know working on you know a million different um you know parameters and trying to figure out what's best today actually the thing that's best is that it gets standardized ASAP um and so you know just because of how long it's taken and where everyone is um and how they've implemented it so far everyone's just ready to move forward and that's the theme that I get when I

70. 43:37

    speak yeah that's today we are sitting and waiting rather being like more active and finding how to how to ask to move that forward okay so this is the problem I see the there are four implementations of contract and one service to it and there is no validation from wallets from explorers from indexers and then basically this is the missing piece and we try to invade invite world leaders to the call uh or not voltage wallet developers to the call and this didn't

71. 44:19

    happen because they have their own priorities and it seems like wallets are not really interested in like uh multiple multi-fungible token so we need to clarify if it is the case and how to solve it so from my perspective like I was already talking with some wallets you know for various different subjects um multi-token standard for this case is not their product uh however if there are a few projects for that for using it already and there is a standard

72. 44:57

    then wallets will be eager to implement it because people will use it right so uh um so the words in fact are waiting for projects adopting the standard and using the standard and then I guess like the first wallet will implement it will show it up this will drive the users and the other words will follow yeah and and you know just to build off of that here while it did say that if it's standardized it will adopt it and

73. 45:29

    use it so it's it's an implement it so you know and somebody needs to like when they will implement it they will immediately hit the problems if we if somebody wouldn't think about how wallets would implement it so wallet should come and review what's there and like provide the feedback it's is it implementable on the wallet site that's the question they need to answer if it is oh yeah but that's it

74. 46:01

    right but they want to drive the Innovation here they can do like a final review but we first need to like do the let's say final proposal my question my question is like if if projects are waiting for a standard and wallets are waiting for a standard and everybody's sitting around and waiting for a standard why is nobody delivering a standard and if that's the case like what can we do to help them because clearly this is something that a lot of

75. 46:31

    people have interest in but I mean none of them really seem to have I mean like we have basically just you on this call Sal right um so I mean what can I do to like to get the buy-in necessary that we can all get together and make this happen everyone is just exhausted from the the lack of you know and I don't mean to point fingers or you know I understand that there's so many different trains of thoughts on how to how to go about this um but you know you can imagine as you

76. 47:03

    know founders of projects they do have other priorities because this PR this priority which is honestly at the top of everyone's list you know there's no movement behind it and so you know I personally like we had Uncle Tony working on this extensively but there was so much um you know there was no no no no no forward movement and we couldn't we couldn't do what we needed to do in time and then we don't have his resources anymore you know he's still with us in a very limited capacity he's unable to

77. 47:35

    contribute to this and so you know luckily I was able to speak with Ken who said hey look there's seven comments on the reference implementation there and I would be able to address every single one of these I agree with most of them um I could do this in less than a day if if I have confirmation that that is enough for us to move forward and and that that's basically where we're at

78. 47:58

    right now and and you know speaking with the other teams um open Forest protocol ample um you know they are on board with that as well thank you and I understand that the wallets do need to provide their input but I think that could maybe happen at like the final stage once we are all in agreement right and and you know once those comments are addressed if Ken goes in addresses those comments um and we can you know vote to move this forward and if you know we just need a

79. 48:31

    wallet here wallet to say you know this is this is you know we can implement this then then we can move forward right and it's it kind of defeats the purpose of the hackathon I mean if you should still do a hackathon anyways because it is a major accomplishment but and a great thing for the ecosystem but you know we already have you know use cases and people who have dedicated a lot of

80. 48:54

    time to their own implementations here right yeah uh totally agree yes unfortunately we have this problem that all the time so on one head side now in this call I think it's very clear that we've verified that people are waiting for it they need it uh they needed for getting a more adoption that will also help their projects and on the other hand is lack of time to um to drive it I would go back to the project that you

81. 49:37

    know we cannot we should not sit and do nothing so so what do we I guess the question is if Ken says that he can move this forward in a day right like what's what's the concern then like if we have an informal standard for some period while we wait to see if that actually delivers what everybody needs is that like an adequate place to start or or what's struggling to see like not exactly the

82. 50:10

    best next steps are ideally um if let's say it's Uncle Tony who's can by the way can anyone clarify that can miyachi from your horizon it's like so let's take people right enough yeah okay near Tech media right okay uh so I think it's Uncle Tony who's not able to move it forward uh not can um if I understand correctly no Uncle Tony is not able to compute but uh Ken is able to contribute on behalf of the implementation written by Uncle Tony so

83. 50:50

    he will pick up and address the comments um that are at least thank you okay is there some insight of all the people who want to support the multi-token standard who are like the engineering leads from each party that could like comment on this because right now it looks like um a lot of these startups are at like limited capacity or they may not have the same age leader like because that's kind of like the only person identified with Uncle Tony before and then on the

84. 51:25

    wallet side they only like really active wallets are like here and here in meteor and there's like three engineers and then your blocks is like the main indexer so it's like uh yeah like I'm just trying to get a sense like who to actually reach out to to like uh to outside of one person pushing forward a thyroid implementation so from my perspective ideally like one of the person involved in the in the implementation so either someone from ofp someone from tenement

85. 51:56

    I heard also about Apple right to um uh like propose like if he wants to do it the other than he can make a proposal for a deaf app or whatever uh what he needs to oh no to do the whole job and as for the tasks I listed here like the studios so like have more feedback we need to respond that person is with his opinion to respond on the comments I mean we were saying that on some comments we agree on some comments maybe not I'm not sure

86. 52:40

    compare the implementations so uh that's I think very important and then put all of it together into the new people pull request um to finalize this net including the uh the findings about the comparison between those implementations proposal to the final interface uh right including the justification uh why this why not another and collect the call collect the um considerations and document them

87. 53:39

    and who would be the leader here sorry it looks like Ken is like the main engineering like important contact for this I don't know who from ofp like the Luke's been part of the conversations but he's not the technical border context so and I haven't seen anyone on the ample side just scanning he's not attacked me that is like that's kind of what I'm trying to identify as like I mean Ken's the lead but in terms of people commenting on this implementation

88. 54:14

    we can definitely get like near blogs here in meteor but um I don't know who else from like that's actually implementing the Mt token like who that part of contact is yeah I mean we we can definitely get uh Alex to you know look it over I mean obviously he's been supportive of everything that Uncle Tony you know put together initially and um you know he's been supportive so he can he can

89. 54:38

    definitely co-sign it uh once Ken is um you know you know has gone through it and addressed those comments you know from the tenements that that would be Alex um and you know I can obviously reach out to Luke and Kenny and ask them to have you know whoever their Tech lead is to to look it over and co-sign it as well or or address any concerns if if there are any okay okay so we have like this list do I miss anything I think this is a good place to start so

90. 55:27

    it sounds like Ken is probably the first person that we should talk to and then I've got a list out of a bunch of projects that have some kind of implementation and the wallets that we should probably talk to I mean it will be nice to get everybody in the same room and just Hash Hash this all out so we can move it forward because it sounds like people are frustrated about about feeling stuck

91. 55:51

    so I mean we need to get over that hump is my perspective and maybe it would be good to incentivize that somehow maybe it would be good to you know have some kind of competition but one way or another we do need to to make sure that we can't just you know keep talking about it yeah we have to move forward one way or another so I do think this is a good start um you know I I do hope that like if you go through this process here that we are

92. 56:25

    actually moving forward towards you know standardization and approval uh obviously that's a big thing for for Ken I spoke with him right before this call I had a meeting with him at 12 30. um so right before this call I spoke with him and you know obviously the main concern uh from his perspective and my perspective what you know is that there's no guarantee that if the comments in place right now are addressed and and you know a solution is

93. 56:49

    found for any any you know points of contention there's still no guarantee that you know we're moving towards approval right um and that's that's really what what he wanted um you know I understand if we can't get that but you know I hope that everyone here is in agreement that we do need to actually standardize this and move forward and um you know like I I can't stress it enough time is of the essence because

94. 57:14

    you know people are losing their like people aren't attending this call because they haven't seen the progress that they need to see to prioritize us despite it being such a major um you know you know item on there on the things to accomplish right and and uh you know from our project perspective right so whatever is ready for review is always moving forward we already approved quite a number of pull requests

95. 57:45

    and Maps there so it's actually like uh the nap process a year ago before a year ago and and today is like Miles Ahead it is it is not perfect but it is moving so it's it's actually like digesting all the all the comments there is a like regular calls and if necessary like it's progressing and if there is a enough interest in like there is an initiative group of people who actually use it who

96. 58:15

    can provide their feedback who can address the security concerns and see it through I have no reason to stop the Innovation and stop like the process I'm only like looking forward to to get the like the standards merged as we did for with uh what's called uh cellbone tokens which start started much later than uh multi mft uh and it's already merged which was also not super simple process but there

97. 58:55

    was a person who and Robert is on a call who just pushed it forward and we had a lot of discussion there was there were some concerns there was no like a reference implementation at certain points but yeah we did it so and the the only missing bit here for mod uh multi-fungible token is somebody who would who would lead it and be be there a consult address the comments uh re-engage again and push it forward and see it in production as we currently see

98. 59:33

    I'm human live and it's picked up by the community so this is the process and I know the complaints of like not not getting somebody is not for doing the job is not like the right in a way to do it uh especially that's not the intention of what I was saying I know you guys are doing your job I know you guys you know do want Innovation um you know it's just more like we you know people people just want you know guarantees that we can move forward it sounds like we're all on the same page and we can definitely

99. 1:00:10

    there's a lot of evidence that we do move forward okay yeah no I I'm I'm not saying we don't I'm just saying that's that's kind of what's neat to convince someone you know like can to obviously put his time into this so um you know I think that's good enough for me I believe that'll be good enough for him when I when I speak with him later today and I think we can move forward with this and and I'm excited um and I appreciate everyone's time today as well

100. 1:00:35

     if if we plan it to like very well I I can even make everyday call if there's going to help and like move it forward I cannot locate this time and let's get it shipped let's like I do recognize the net process has like evolved tremendously um but I think like the harsh reality of it is like there isn't really that many um capitalized teams that like have lead Engineers to take these ideas that they

101. 1:01:07

     have and like put them into a reference implementation and I think like there needs to be some coordination on that part uh because and and some type of time limit and time cap because even if someone pushes it forward there's just uh it's it's a lot of times in a consuming process and there really isn't that many people no that have much incentives to like not focus on what they're doing which is Building Products so if there's like kind of like a way that people can take ideas or products

102. 1:01:39

     and then uh work with the core team to to make those standard reference implementations I think will be way easier for um getting like the wallets and the indexes to comment on like that but yeah the reference implementation parts it's a blocker for a lot of these kind of things in ID ideation for SBT that was always a reference implementation from the very beginning now go ahead okay but it was still evolving oh yeah that's for sure and

103. 1:02:14

     that was like it was evolving in a good direction so like the whole process was beneficial for or I'm human for sure Vlad do you think it makes sense to put out like a request for a product style post on dev Hub and have people you know make a proposal because if it's a question of like incentives or or compensation is that something that we can like do something for yeah we can we can probably post an idea and ask like if if it's a question of funding uh name your

104. 1:02:46

     name your price you know right if it's a question of Engineers that just need money for engineering time I mean we can probably make that happen I think so so actually that was like one of the goals of this you know like my presentation if I can call it in this way right to provide the context that you know we need in Innovation the project in standards and there are two ways at least like

105. 1:03:15

     whatever listed rights to to incentivize it and so I can send therefore so uh I'd like to shut down to everyone to pick up propose share support and yeah it's a good idea to also make a more specific proposal another app yeah and I think obviously funding is is a key part of this because although it's not relevant now um you know I believe that Uncle Tony would have been able to complete this work if you know we were able to retain

106. 1:03:49

     them on team as a primary Tech lead but unfortunately due to time spent on on this without you know getting funding um as well as just other expenses you know we're unable to retain them full time um which you know led to this obviously you know we came to a halt because obviously he's not able to contribute to this any longer right I see one like if I hear it correctly like between the lines it seems that uh

107. 1:04:21

     people who wanted to engage I didn't want to continue to engage it because they see that we as contract Standard Group were not providing enough support or like locking it too much did I hear it correctly like before what we are saying no I don't know about that um I think that earlier in the year when a lot changed obviously with the process the dev Hub was introduced you know we did put a proposal forward to carry this out all the way down from you know

108. 1:04:52

     conceptualization to writing the you know implementation getting you know getting feedback from wallets indexers everything everything that we're talking about now that was produced uh proposed in the dev Hub with a hackathon at the end of it and every single thing that we're talking about on this call was all proposed in like maybe January or February and um if it you know and then I you know

109. 1:05:14

     there was I don't know maybe some delays there we never really got that move forward and then of course we started these calls and um what looks like March or April or some some or maybe even June we started doing these Community calls for this particular standard and then we started seeing some progress but then by then it was a little bit um too late for our for our own to team you know um so it's it's just a matter of like just timing didn't match up

110. 1:05:45

     um but we obviously have seen you know the the contract centered you know your team um you know do a fantastic job of course with the soul bound token and Alex was a part of that as well and and you know I'm I'm glad to see that that was approved and and moved forward and we're just really hoping for the same type of solution um here and and it looks like we're working towards that so I think I think we're all on the same page now but

111. 1:06:10

     that's just kind of where we were at the start of the year right yeah so from our perspective here is like we are really missing a leader from the project who who has like the valid use case to finalize it we did try like a few attempts to move it forward yes like ask specifically to drive it um yeah but yeah definitely took a lot of time yeah um you know obviously from my perspective I wish it could be me because you know I I you know I I can't I can't do the technical

112. 1:06:49

     um aspect the way you guys can right and so you know we do need someone to step in thankfully Ken has you know put his hat in in the ring and said look if we can if it's actually going to move forward we can do it and so um I think that's a great resource because not only is he you know able to do it and able to do it well but he's also you know on the horizon team which is directly going to you know get all

113. 1:07:14

     the other Horizon teams involved as well um who can utilize the multi-token standard right and so there there's an option you know to maybe get those cosines from you know Open Force protocol I'm actually not sure if they're in Horizon but I know ample is I know Rogues is and uh I wouldn't be surprised if there was you know many many others that are interested in this you know seamless going through go through so yeah

114. 1:07:39

     wrap up just just uh this topic right from our side we we are committed yes to provided help but like we said like ideally we need a leader from one of these projects to um to The Works justify and I'm not even proposed right to have a daily or regular calls so if it's needed like because happens we will support okay sounds good to me I think that's uh I think we can move forward from there I I think we're going to have the involvement required to do this so perfect

115. 1:08:25

     one comment from me is I think previously we made a another great choice of trying to implement the reference reference implementation inside near SDK immediately and that was uh really yeah sorry about that it's it's happening um the so I think what we need is is a simple implementation Standalone contract with using near SDK but not trying to create like traits and all that just pure methods with interfaces okay this is the function call this is the uh how the

116. 1:09:10

     like log would look like uh so don't try to make it like 100 implemented in a in a SDK Primitives but rather focus on the actual need of it how it interacts how to uh what do the interfaces yeah that's that's a common because like I feel like we often see people trying to jump into the train of finishing up that all the implementation in your sdkrs which I don't think is an easy task and it requires like both having the standards and also

117. 1:09:51

     making nice interfaces to work with like devex basically of it which is a different problem to solve okay anyone else wants to add something good I guess we are good okay so let me answer that example maybe a few minutes on Linux to show um like our existing board and also request for comments so we have a free um issues or pull requests um that requires more comments uh this is like the super old one um

118. 1:10:43

     again this is a this is the evidence how hard it is to change the standard when it's already implemented in SDK and also used in the community uh so yeah this this one is gonna um dead end there so don't look into that reject it at some point maybe okay let's focus on more yeah so here is a good one because it's related to the multitasking standard so approval management but uh

119. 1:11:21

     blocked on like the whole designs nothing will be outside to do this look and create our projects this one okay and uh sdt metadata centered uh this one is a metadata that was required by confounded wallets to move forward yeah and also issuers so in fact um a few issuers which we were talking with were asking how this what to put and how to put in the metadata um here in the um scenario already like explaining that metadata is roughly defined

120. 1:12:28

     for the SBT it was heavily influenced by the nft what's the NST metadata but in fact like when using it and looking at the issuers were already asking about more details so um here we go with more details so uh open call please have a look especially like for other projects who also are dealing with issuing tokens that would be a good learning impact for everyone because we could adapt

121. 1:13:06

     this guideline to maybe even NST I'm sorry we are over time and I I feel like I need to run um yeah 20 minutes past the hour but uh thanks everybody for showing up a really great discussion today I'll um get the recording posted to YouTube and I'll try to follow up with some of the people that we talked about uh particularly Ken and see what you you know wants to work on um yeah I'd really love to to see this

122. 1:13:38

     get finalized um I guess we'll call it here uh thanks everybody for showing up and hope to talk again soon yeah thank you everybody I really appreciate it thank you it's awesome thank you