DevHub Live 11 - Guest: NEAR Infra Committee

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

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   what you want what you want what you want what you want what want want what you want want what

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   me what you want what you want what you want what you want night n system is all open and welcoming so you can go on g Hub and find all good first issues that are plenty of them and start takeing also you can go to Dev Hub and find the fellowship program and all the details about it and if you have

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    near experience and you are willing to onboard other developers please join the fellowship program to contribute to guide them if you are new to near but you still have a pretty good technical background find the leaders that appli on near the talk to them reach out to them ask for for guidance if um our protocol was our primary source of Revenue and you had like a fee um baked into the protocol that um you

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    know like we were charging 2% fees or something and it was baked in the smart contract someone could just like take our open source smart contract deploy it and then change that fee to be zero for example and even in that situation like think about the amount of people that are going to be using this um if one out of every money Forks the Keyon protocol makes changes as a r developer understands like you know needs to dig

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    into the code see where the fees are understand how to change it turn it off and like integrate it back into their own app um again I don't really care uh lot people I think underestimate how much work that really is and how much you really have to execute on some of this stuff for it to really be meaningful generally right now I think you know this kind of varies but the the current price for indexing an entire subgraph uh depending on how big it is and how

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    complex it is is about 3,000 GRT um so you b basically pay the 3,000 GRT into the contract and that kind of incentivizes all of the indexers to pick it up so as of right now if you probably did that you'd probably get at least six to 12 indexers that would be interested in picking it up and they would store it for you and then you get um 100,000 free queries per month so that's kind of a

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    lot um you know you can kind of calculate that by Bas on like traffic and what you expect on your um your application but you get 100,000 free queries and then after that all the queries are priced in GRT according to like the network um but it's very very cheap um you know it's probably at least like five to 10 times cheaper than if you were to like store and serve data on let's say something like AWS or like

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    Google po um and you can also get estimations so you can kind of start with that 100,000 CR querious and you can kind of see how much traffic you're getting and kind of guesstimate on on what's going to be the overall cost how does it you mentioned like you know some of the the web 2 type of stuff how does it compare to that just like I know some hard with fluctuation stuff but how would you is it on par to having to set up like you know uh something that is on like a WS storing whatever

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    else cheaper I mean well the nice thing is that you don't have to it's much cheaper it's a lot cheaper like it's about five times cheaper than if you were to do like Google Cloud plus you'd have to manage it you know what I mean um so yeah the really benefit of the graph is that you just like deploy it pay the pay that GRT and it gets picked up on the network and then you're just utilizing the token um and so yeah there's a a lot of power there and it's

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    really easy to do and uh I think you're basically yeah you're able to save some money um and you're able to do it like with ease and not have to worry about managing the infrastructure for protocol their challenge is onboarding and retention so we help them with easy onboarding and and retention and kind of a easy way of interacting with with developers so right now even I don't know about um uh devhub but like there are other ecosystem that I talked there are

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    not a lot of visibility uh from the protocol side about how many people are building what kind of things they're building what are the similar kind of developer we might on board so one of the uh one of the great thing about to where we know what kind of things people will contribute what kind of things people will love if we can build like a a better algorithm to kind of help people to hey you know these skills

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    maybe this is a protocol you can try or you know you have this and this skill and you build this three apps there is a bounty for this uh this project so in the future we'll be able to kind of uh help this two group so I I I believe like we have kind of a uh two segment of you user that we kind of support developer and protoc yeah no that that I mean that makes makes a ton of sense for you guys like going forward so one of the other challenges must be here too is

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    like like as a tool there probably needs to be a point where you have to also decide like where is this a business versus where this is just like you know uh public good infrastructure whatever that is how are you guys I think cuz this is I and I I don't need you to go into like numbers of that but I think just as developers people who Building Products we don't we sometimes forget

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    this we get so excited to build the thing and then you really oh yeah I have to pay people I have my own bills like how are you guys starting to approach what this looks like yeah so I'll be honest so building a developer tool is already challenging and it become more challenging in web 3 because the uh and in a specific protocol because it's the niche is it's a very small Niche so the way we are approaching is I mentioned about two groups um so we are going to kind of

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    charge protocol to kind of use our tool to give them much better U insight about Developers want

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    want you want want what you want what you want what you want

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    want want want you me what want want might

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    want there's some things that maybe like could be improved like what you know talk about all the good stuff that we're doing like what are some things that maybe like still need to be worked on and get get better yeah it's definitely not all unicorns and Roses um the there are a lot of inefficiencies and uh optimizations on the table um this near social gateways uh user experience or developer experience um is still um

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    improving in in the process of uh um just building better tooling around it um the there is a need for more um visibility to the processes um just like today I tried to present you to just wanted to uh paint a picture of how it could be put together but ideally ideally there there would be a place where it would be much more um in in a shorter format presented uh visualized so it's much easier to understand how pieces could be um brought together as you have as

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    you have seen it's not just one SDK that we use it's actually a combination of many uh which are based on efforts of different teams in me system it's not just one company or one team is building it it's a truly open- Source um effort of providing building blocks and slowly on top of each other yeah yeah great point I mean that that is the thing here too right everything is open source one of the things that comes to

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    mind here with all this AI stuff right is like re reliability of the AI itself how are you guys approaching that like I saw like we showed you the transaction before it did it didn't just like execute on its own but what are other mechanisms you guys are thinking about to you know protect against that yeah uh so just kind of like uh when you go into an exchanges and you put in a sloppy number and then something pops up and says hey you idiot why why are you or if something's over

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    let's say 25 bucks or something you can start putting safeguards into the system that basically says are you sure this looks like a pretty intense thing you're trying to do um also on the road map is starting to build the fraud protection uh mechanisms and then when we start importing uh other AI agents um that's when we're really going to have to uh dig deep and making sure that uh it's

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    not doing anything that you don't want like let's say Let's Do a Swap and then the reality is the transaction that gets built uh sends half of your funds to someone else so if you go into Min phase and you make a transaction you can drill into all of what you're doing right we show what functions you're calling on what contract how much of each different piece you're doing uh we also built an AI agent that explains with human

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    readable text uh what the transaction is that you're trying to do so it's it's weird to say that AI fixes everything but it it's it kind of is and we know things could could get tricky if we get too far ahead of ourselves uh so we believe to stop marketing start engaging and that's what we're doing over at devhub is that now the focus is no longer just about let's sell you something on why near is the best developer experience which it is right we all know it that's well while we're

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    here but we want to actually start to engage you as a user and better understand what do you need and how do we help you be successful instead of us trying to put our product to you what you want what you want what you want what you want

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    want you want you want you want what you want what you want what you want

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    hey folks we are live again here on another devhub live uh thanks so much for joining us uh this is looking up to be another really exciting episode I know I say it every time but uh we have a great group of guests here we're going to talk a little bit about uh ECC coming up which is a obviously a big event in the crypto world I talk about what near is doing there we have a hacker house through devhub that we're going to talk

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    about uh then uh we have a great group of guests so it's actually not just single individual to represent the near infrastructure committee and we thought that this would be a really great opportunity to both talk about like what's actually available for Builders you know through the infrastructure uh you know what's what can people Leverage What do people still need to actually own themselves uh all the different

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    components and I think it's going to be a great conversation uh opportunity again to ask questions so you can always ask questions in any of the different chats wherever you're watching this from and uh we'll try to take those as well but let's get started I have Owen with me again today and we're going to bring Owen up and we're going to bring up Jose and Noma to talk about ECC and The Hacker

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    House hey Owen let's bring up Jose hey hi everybody thank you for having us ah no problem no problem so ECC is obviously a big event uh a lot going on there uh and near devhub has a presence there you want to talk a little bit about what we're doing yeah absolutely we're three weeks uh up to ATC and not just the conference we are focus on the E Global hackaton at Brussels by the end of the conference so

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    we uh we design not only a a space but also an experience for hackers to boost their you know their efforts and their projects especially during the night because dur during the day we will have a strong Presence at the main venue we'll have devil over there to to provide support for hackers but during the night sometimes when the magic happens right so especially for the first night is when the people start thinking about the ideas that we want to create and what are the opportunities for for them

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    and the second night is you say you know the the hard night for coding so we designed this experience in a amazing Hacker House in Brussels nearby the the the main venue well it it will start first night it will start at 7 p.m. uh and we hope to have some you know like some surprises for the hackers and it would close at 900 a.m in the morning the next morning and the second night is the same

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    900 PM starts the hacker house and and at 9:00 a.m. the day of the submission so I don't want to I don't want to share too much but we design some experience to boost the project we will have uh technical mentorship support uh at The Hacker House also online support uh you know during this late late uh hours or early in the in the morning and the idea is like when when when we attend Etc you

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    know couple of years ago on the last year at par is the nights is sometimes you know hard to to keep your focus on working they several people you know crashing on the tables this is it could be not the best environment uh to hack so that's what we want to hack and that's what we want to fix with this experience amazing amazing yeah it's looking up to be a really exciting event etcc is already uh a great event to

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    begin with uh I believe it's it's how can't even get tickets now uh so uh this should be a great opportunity for for developers uh you know one of the things I think is uh really a big piece of all of this really is the educational stuff and opportunity to kind of learn more about near uh so at the actual uh event you know if you're not at the hacker house uh what's the best way to kind of connect with near well in the case we got for for you

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    know like you will have all the resources all the technical document that you may need for hack for hacking with us and of course it's a it's a e Global hack but we get several opportunities to integrate with several you know through chain abstraction to work with several blockchains and also we help uh the developers to to find the best opportunity to apply for several bounties so all the technical uh documentation that you may need uh you will have a hand you will

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    have all the people around the glob we got several people in the US uh some people in Asia people in Europe so the support will be around clock and the idea is that again like the the first the first night when you gather your team and just start thinking about what you want to build uh just join us we're going to be on the main Venue at the the beginning then we're going to be at the hacker

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    house and we'll provide all the support and most of the people in in the ecosystem know know what we do you know like Noma will be around has been around for for several years on on the hacker on the on the hackaton uh ecosystem and Maria and the rest of the team so we gather uh really good uh knowledge of how to help developers to to properly build uh a you know a real project with good opportunities to to develop it to

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    launch yeah for sure uh I mean oh and you served as Dev at a few of these events now uh you know what are some things that you think are really critical as they come into this of planning to actually make a hackathon successful I think the main thing I see is people taking the first the first like whole day maybe even to the next day trying to think what to build it's always great to have a a bit of a think

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    beforehand and it's it's a hackathon right the implementation doesn't have to be perfect I think people should just go ahead and and get stuck in and try and start implementing from the first night really um and it can be a bit chaos us with finding a team but I would just say be be social be open with everyone try and get that team nailed down quickly and you can have people come in uh at

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    later stages but hackathons are like it's it's rush hour every single hour so you have to uh get cracking soon really so sure I like to see like it was day two at the last hackathon I was at and I knew these guys wanted to build on there so I was like so what what are you considering building and they were like oh still don't know yet you have like 24 hours left right so I really like to see

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    people getting to work early uh and and Jose you were saying we have a lot of development support and and all the resources what about the goods to get them through the night do we have plenty of caffeine there well V can answer to that right yes I I I can talk about that hey everybody I'm here to get you excited about The Hacker House Jose Owen n they're in charge of the technical part

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    and I'm in charge of making the magic happen for all of you so we have reserved an amazing amazing space in Brussels it's a basically a four uh four-story building um so we have like four Apartments four different spaces there will be a lot of tables and chairs available for you what we want to do is take care of you so that you can only focus on your project so yes there will be plenty of caffeine and more than that

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    so you will definitely be covered uh for AT light dinner and ongoing snacks throughout the night plus another other surprises I won't share it right now but there is also a game room so you have some space to just chill first time and you know like take a break and uh maybe play some pool or uh pinle uh there are many there are different games in the in Hacker House so that's really nice you

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    can also uh take an app can you hear me yeah so we will have only 50 spaces available it's okay good thank you we have only 50 spaces available so you can all uh register right now uh in the Luma link that you have here um or that you will see in all social media but we have only 50 spaces so it's very important for you to get to The Venue at uh before around 7 PM when H said that's when we're

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    starting on the first day and because it's first come first served okay we can only host uh 50 hackers so if we have more than 50 hackers that's amazing but you won't be able to come into the venue and it's because we're already a lot okay so not everybody gets a bed but you definitely have places to sleep and take a nap if you need to uh you have full bathroom so if you want to take a shower

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    and you know freshen up you can do that you will have that space and um yeah you will be covered for anything that you need during the hackathon so that's a neat I can show you a couple of images if you want to just uh yeah get more excited about that no this is I mean this is super exciting as it is and listen this is why we hope people are watching because this is the first time

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    this link has been available to actually go and sign up so if you want to get one of those spots uh now's the opportunity to be able to actually sign up and do that again this all sounds like a really great experience uh I love the idea of being able to actually take care of yourself not just actually just work for you know three days straight uh so really exciting uh before I let you guys go uh any last not uh things you want to

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    kind of mention about the event as a whole The Hacker House things people should be aware of um I did want to add that the hacker house will be the first of its kind for hackbox uh hackbox is a platform that is unifying and scaling hackathons on near um we've done quite a few of these types of events or hackathons across the globe in Nigeria in Tunisia in London in Toronto recently um but we never have had the Hacker House format Under the hackbox Umbrella so this will be really

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    interesting learning experience for us um and I'm really looking forward to see what we can like bring from this I think that it'll also be just like Owen mentioned seeing teams getting to work as early as possible to be successful at the event um in the coming days we will release some like comms about how you know you can start getting to thinking about your project um open up a group where you can connect with potential teammates and so on so um please follow

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    uh devhub on Twitter um and then we will pass on some links and some coms through this registration link the Luma link that you can see in the chat and on the screen um for like me to knows about the event itself so yeah really looking forward to seeing everyone in Brussels and seeing what comes from from the event itself thank you awesome some exciting stuff uh no this I mean this all sounds great and I want to rate that uh Jose mentioned that there are some uh

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    exciting surprises that will be there as well uh there is some stuff that I think is going to help lead into the redacted conference and that hackathon event and so uh it's a great opportunity to get a head start on some different things uh make sure you're following uh near devhub for more information we'll continue to post updates uh leading up to the event and through the event all the way through uh thank you all so much

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    for your time uh this was super helpful we'll keep promoting this all the way through up until the event uh and the link if you haven't already saved it is at the bottom of of the screen right now thank you all I appreciate you guys coming onk you so much thank you thank you by thank you all right let's so Owen we have coming up now the infrastructure committee can you just kind of give everyone like a brief introduction of what the committee

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    structure is uh on near and why we actually have these different type of committies and Community groups for sure so the idea behind these committees is that you have a bunch of experts who know about this specific domain and help make decisions within that domain and that that can be uh like funding different projects to implement uh things within that domain I I'm sure uh these goats you'll see um there so many

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    ogs in here and people who just know so much and have so much experience I'm sure they can uh shed a lot of light on the specifics of the infrastructure committee itself yeah and uh really excited to hear yeah let's let's bring him up because uh we we have a whole host here so let's start getting everyone up here all right I told you some some great guys here we go I'm GNA bring everybody up so look at this we got we got a full house here uh I'm really excited you guys all able to make it uh there's so

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    much to talk about uh around this but maybe we could just kind of start and we'll just start at the top and kind of go through just like a super quick introduction of like what your role is in within the near ecosystem and kind of how it interacts with the infrastructure committee uh Trenton you want to kick us off absolutely my name is uh Trenton I'm a senior TPM at pagota and I was asked to

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    project manage the infrastructure committee so I'm here to to H all the things and get things organized awesome amazing uh Vlad you've been on the show already once before but just maybe a quick introduction of who you are yeah being on many shows lately yeah I'm Vlad I joined here like four years ago when when it all started and it was an awesome Journey since the time uh being an engineer an engineer manager now I'm leading the uh near ad devhub um initiative together with Orie

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    who will be uh sharing his perspective as well but uh for the matter of this committee uh this call today I'm representing the infra Committee Member um making all sorts of U decisions together with these bright Minds Alex go do you want to go go next sure absolutely I'm alexen CEO for labs a company that is building evm directed things on top of near um and uh yeah happy to to be on the infrastructure committee to to bring my expertise um in the

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    blockchain perfect Eric hey I'm Eric uh I'm a CTO of pagota um been in the new ecosystem a little less than a year at this point and um you know Alex and I represent the cynical part of the infrastructure committee counterpart to flad and Sandy who the Positive Vibes um happy to be here too awesome awesome uh Vic hi everyone yes I'm a senior engineer with EOS system infr committee also work on a lot of these Integrations along with everybody here work very

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    closely with Trenton lad Alex Eric and a lot of other members who to this committee perfect and and in Nori I know you just you didn't want to talk too much but I want to still make sure that we we highlighted all this great stuff that you're doing here as well thanks yeah no I'm definitely happy to chime in I hi I'm aie and I oversee the day-to-day operations and product development at devhub and today I represent the the devhub portal team

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    who's been partnering with the infrastructure committee uh to build uh tooling to help with decision making so yeah excited to get into some stuff perfect perfect so Trenton let's start with with you uh what is the purpose of the infrastructure committee and you know why did this actually start up within near as a whole yeah so uh there there were some challenges here early this year as we we

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    started growing really fast um ecosystem and uh so there were some challenges with uh performance and uh response times and things of that nature so a lot of the ogs as you call them a lot of the people across the ecosystem kind of bumped heads and decided that this should be a focus that we should really start working on getting uh this short up and figuring out ways you know to to

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    to fix it um and so they were given an envelope a budget um and they formed this uh committee I I posted the committee members it didn't format very well um I'll also share a link a little bit later to our um GitHub where there's a Wiki and you can see the current members but um so we asked Ilia asked these experts to come together and advise the the ecosystem them on good projects that they could fund and get things short up in place like RPC

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    service providers um indexers explorers um you know things things of that nature um and we've probably at this point we've probably looked at maybe 20 to 25 uh proposals so far and the manual process we put together a manual process to get things kind of rocking and rolling um so we've looked at quite a few proposals we have probably five or six that have been funded now um including ongoing support for for wallets and um RPC providers uh indexers so um there has been a uh a noticeable

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    Improvement um in in infrastructure and response times um so I think that um I think when you look at the results it's working um so yeah that's that's why it was was put together just to shore shore some things up and make things better improve the infrastructure no that's great is is the mission would you say to make sure that these uh things are being funded through maybe near but being built outside or is the goal to say like you know we just need some of these things actually done and so whomever ends up picking it up

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    whether it's internal or external um I would I would say the committee's probably been mostly focused on um third parties like like people that are not directly related to the committee but there are a couple projects even from Representatives inside the committee so I'd say it's a mix of both I think I think really I I really think the focus was on let's let's fix things let's make them better right and of course there's still a strong push when you when you I'm a kind of a fly on thewall in the committee

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    right so I'm not a participating member I'm just I'm organizing so I get to watch and see um and you know I would say that that the group is still focused on decentralize decentralizing infrastructure um and bringing uh new people into the ecosystem and new developers so I think there's a there's a strong Focus you know both on fixing things but also kind of expanding the the breadth of opportunity for the

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    ecosystem for sure for sure uh Alex you obviously are part of a really big piece of infrastructure that's built on top of near running Aurora uh so how does this role kind of fit into both from your expertise standpoint but also making sure that like other stuff is actually being uh built and integrated so l in um in the Journey of Aurora we need to take care of lots of different pieces

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    of the infrastructure for Aurora if you will think of of Aurora itself it's kind of like a mini version of a network or an additional Network there are some things that we are directly inheriting from near uh but there are other things that needed to build to be built from scratch like RPC for example and the index Ander Services Explorer stuff like that it was a little bit many things were a little bit easy much easier than in NE ecosystem just because uh there

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    are some tools that are available already for evm networks and these tools can be applied either through the Partnerships or through direct purchase of this things or going of just launching of the open source versions and stuff like that however um just having this this expertise and thinking a lot about how things are working for the evm together with the Rainbow Bridge uh which kind of connects the U near side in ethereum and within the Rainbow Bridge since Aurora has been developing

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    a rainbow bridge for a pretty long period of time uh we were also thinking a lot about this infrastructure so it's kind of um my involvement in the infrastructure committee is a pretty natural extension and sharing of this knowledge and uh just uh assessing um ideas that that are brought up to the ecosystem as well as and this is also pretty important thing for the infrastructure committees formulating the needs uh of the

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    ecosystem uh in the form of rfps um so one of the one of the important goals for infrastructure committee here for us is um is to become less reactive on the proposals that different companies and different groups of people are bringing to the ecosystem uh but instead transitioning into more proactive uh approach where we're saying okay here is the problem uh we believe that it this problem should be fixed please come up with the

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    solutions um and uh yeah that's uh like from my point of view all of the um currently in the infrastructure committee the the diversity of the participants is super great to be able to look at the infrastructure in a very very complex and comprehendable manner so we are alog together able to come up with this rfps and agree on the on some of the approaches yeah great point about the

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    rfps I I think that's something that maybe people aren't truly aware of that if you are a builder and you are looking to work on something like there is opportunity to come see like hey it's you don't have to start from scratch there's opportunity to go look for funding and actually build some of these things I think it's a nice transition to maybe talk to you Eric a little bit about pigot's role um I think people who

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    have been around the ecosystem first think of pagota as actually building a lot of this infrastructure but as some of that has changed a little bit over the years can you talk a little bit about like the role both pagota plays in the larger ecosystem but then where it fits into this ecos infrastructure committee sure um pagota is in a uh so one of the things that's that's a little

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    challenging about pagota that I think that we have a lot of room to improve on is that we are both part of uh infrastructure decision making and execution um so a lot of what pagota does is sort of falls into the bucket of building out near core infrastructure whether that's you know Dev tools libraries or or um experimentations that might turn into core Dev tools libraries and services uh so we try to push that a

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    little bit forward at the same time um there's so much transparency in decision Mak in ecosystem decision- making done through uh done through devhub done through this committee all of our decisions and rfps and proposals are all right there on the on the GitHub Wiki in the in issued list if you want to take a look at them um but pigot's decision- making and execution process can tend to

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    look a little opaque um so one thing I think that we are looking to do in the future is Route a little bit more of what pagota is doing for near infrastructure through bodies like this committee instead of just going off and doing it ourselves um I think that'll help with you know just ecosystem recognition and making sure that everything that is uh is going on is is well understood um so yeah our role is to like the the role of the infrastructure committee and the role of pagota do overlap I think that's

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    a great thing um and I think that that should uh that should continue to become more transparent over time yeah I mean I think that's a it's a good point some of it right probably is for you guys is also just like a larger education piece of not just stuff that you're building but like where that actually fits into long-term support and things like that as well well so um Vlad you've actually built a lot of you know some of the early infrastructure and

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    continue to be involved especially with tooling and things like that you talk a little bit about just again why it's important for people to actually if they're not actually going to either apply or build but just to be around and part of the committee and see what's actually going on and being transparent yeah well I actually want to bring us back to the definition of what we actually think about infrastructure in in our terms these days like here it's

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    not necessarily about like uh cloud or servers uh or like running Hardware uh we are thinking about the the foundation that is built upon uh for for the app so infrastructure is something that you reuse when you build the end user applications and for us it is the not only the like well the very first thing that comes to mind is rpcs in in near world uh world like with with any blockchain but there are more pieces

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    than that it is Explorer the very first one that comes to mind to just see at least what's going on inside that uh network but then near actually took the initiative to to provide the best Tooling in the in the in class uh of uh blockchain space and because of that we initially took a lot of uh initiative to build the wallet to build build the um Dow tooling and uh many projects like

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    that now is considered to be basically the foundation the infrastructure of near and the the this is where the importance comes from the importance of building all this uh composable tools and reusable tools is that it actually powers and accelerates The Innovation allows people to be more productive uh when you have um tools that allow you to debug to uh to to understand better to learn better

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    uh is um just much more um like brings us much better uh better future um and the apps like hot uh for example I I like that uh we can now see something that is actually leveraging the uh infrastructure at the maximum capacity um day to day uh 24/7 and we see a lot of challenges coming from there and in devhub we also build the the tools that leverage many of the features of near protocol um to its best

92. 1:01:14

    extent um so we we challenge ourselves we challenge the infrastructure and we identify the the weak points and that's where the Innovation come from and uh that's what we uh then can formulate into a request for proposals rfps um for the broader community and this is where this basically committee infrastructure committee um came about is from the need to actually scale uh to involve more people more teams uh more

93. 1:01:53

    Vision uh for different um building blocks that would power the rest of the applications in the uh Mir system I hope that answers the question yeah no I I think that's great that's a great point I that's important that we talk about like what infrastructure really is and especially not just on near but I think like in web 3 right is that sometimes you know we see it all the time and Dev talking to devs that that transition of the mindset of you know what is actually powering my

94. 1:02:26

    application you know when I'm building on a project you know what actually is involved in that and is not just talking about servers all the time it is this whole other thing with that said um and this is kind of open to everyone what are some gaps though that we're still seeing near that like your committee really is trying to focus on encouraging people to start looking at building uh

95. 1:02:48

    you know to get improve some of those things and I suppose further to that you've talked a lot about uh these rfps are there any active ones open I I'll jump in um I think the the first RFP that we put out as a committee was for a a treasury management tool um we have a great uh we have the sput net Dow V2 contract that's been in the system uh it's been been on near for a while um has a few interfaces asro Dow asro plus plus and it it's very um it's

96. 1:03:23

    very feature but it's also very complicated and if you're just trying to manage a pool of tokens it can be a little overwhelming and hard to use for somebody who's sort of taking on a treasury management role um in a group so we've we've identified this need it's come through both um both the near Foundation as well as a few other uh parties in the ecosystem trying to launch tokens on near just how they're going to manage those tokens in a way that doesn't require understanding

97. 1:03:48

    everything about how Dows work so that was one of our rfps we've gotten some great submissions for those um and we're close to choosing uh vendor or vendors to make them um in general uh sort ofice we see the these sorts of gaps in the near infrastructure we we it's and even if we see proposals coming through that are of a certain pattern we we hope to turn those into rfps um where we're more

98. 1:04:14

    likely to be interested in sort of uh proposals coming to us as if somebody identifies uh something a piece of near infrastructure that we didn't even think about so if we're talking about RPC providers you know if we see a gap there we would take that as an RFP um but if there's some sort of for instance um you know privacy primitive that somebody could add to the Neo protocol and it would then become part of NE infrastructure that other people could build on that's those are prop those are

99. 1:04:47

    sort of um proposals to us that we would be really excited about anyone else want to jump in yeah I was uh quick question on that part so you when you put out an RFP and you have multiple application multiple people applying for that is that something that you do to have maybe multiple parties actually be rewarded so that it is not reliant on a single developer or is it really just kind of a case by case basis we've had those discussions for

100. 1:05:18

     now it's a case-by case basis I mean there's often value in having multiple um multiple providers for a solution uh for competitive reasons to hch our bets um but at the same time we have a limited budget we want to spend it wisely uh and I think the value of having this as a committee of people who are from different parts in the ecosystem and who are working well together is that we can just have those

101. 1:05:42

     conversations openly um and not necessarily get locked into a single answer uh for each particular case um I could chime in I could chime in just on just on the rfps and General we um had a virtual offsite for the committee in several pretty uh long uh strategy planning sessions to kind of hash out you know issues in the ecosystem things that the committee wanted to see um so we're kind of in the RFP brainstorming process so we're standing up some docs and doing some offline uh asynchronous work on standing

102. 1:06:16

     up those rfps and so as it stands right now the one RFP we have for the treasury app that was done in the previous manual process it was posted on GitHub um and uh the committee has has basically made a decision on that so that's that's moving forward um and then future rfps are due shortly so it's it's something I think you've gone on mute there my apologies um that's something that it's coming shortly people should

103. 1:06:41

     keep their eyes out and that will be using our shiny new uh infrastructure portal uh that was put together by our friends at devhub and it's it's pretty amazing yeah I'd like to also chime in a bit uh the the most important part is as Eric said is to to keep the balance between um buying everything like basically giving giving out grants to every single idea and like involve as many teams as possible uh and

104. 1:07:16

     at the same time maintaining the budget lean uh the uh so far it it it results in several discussions about especially like um competing offers for example RPC infrastructure on near is becoming uh um more reach with different providers trying to offer uh their Solutions um but at the same time it seems like the um ecosystem or economy around the RPC ecosystem is not there yet and uh I I I will uh give a spoiler here guess uh since we didn't openly communicate in

105. 1:07:58

     in a uh written form yet but the uh something that we want to to build is this uh economy of infrastructure in near system where we do not directly sponsor the uh leaves on the infrastructure the infrastructure itself but actually we want to see the usage of that infrastructure and we will encourage the projects to actually pay for the infrastructure and we will uh cover that cost for the projects so

106. 1:08:28

     they can manage this budget themselves rather than us making those sometimes not uh educated uh decisions because we don't know the law the each application is giving to each of the providers um is the thought process r at to about building sustainability into projects that they have to be a little bit more conscious around that exactly yeah and and to here like you don't want them

107. 1:08:59

     to be entirely dependent on on you know this committee's grants yeah and also to make projects you know kind of uh be a little bit more adult in general so when they are thinking about building up the project when for example somebody for example uh Bild wallet they need to think about the usage of the RP see that this thing is not for free though they can get some of the RPC for free but then they need

108. 1:09:31

     to think about how this is going to work how they going to generate money in order to pay for it in the future so they need to have some kind of business model around the wallet they need to to think about this and that's absolutely okay that this business model is not yet proven or is not fully working for them to be able to cover all of the cost that's that's not a problem the the

109. 1:09:55

     thing is to introduce as early as possible this thinking in their minds so that uh they are thinking about indeed the sustainable business models sustainable businesses in general uh and then uh and then the infrastructure and then they are will make the decision about what kind of what kind of infrastructure is required for them and which infrastructure provider is the best one because infrastructure itself is not the end goal right nobody wants just to there is no point in building

110. 1:10:27

     infrastructure just because um everything we need to focus on the products as an ecosystem and products on usability and stuff like that and infrastructure is just the means how to get there so uh kind of helping helping projects to understand this and transition into the mode when they are dictating which infrastructure needs to uh to be on near uh is one of our goals so that's a really thoughtful point where you know I I like to think of just even myself as a developer coming from projects that if you're coming from like

111. 1:11:04

     a web 2 mindset right all of the stuff that you're going to build on like you're paying for pretty much out of the box May is a free plan but like you are then having to build that into your cost and you see that with projects that maybe raise money early because they have to be conscious of that it has felt like over the years here that web 3 products have been like oh well figure it out later we're just going to jump on

112. 1:11:27

     all this stuff and then when they scale and things stop working then it becomes this scramble it sounds like the approach here that your committee is taking is that like we want to be able to set people up for success for when they do hit scale it doesn't become this scramble later on definitely want to to keep the balance because Innovation sometimes requires some risks um and we are exactly this is exactly what I also wanted to say so there are some more

113. 1:11:58

     clearly pieces of infrastructure like like RPC right you just need to be able to call blockchain right that's that's super straightforward however there are some other pieces of infrastructure that are commonly they can be as a just a public good and there is obviously a way how to turn these public goods into uh into work in business with a business model that is attached to it uh however um uh it might be more cost

114. 1:12:30

     and more inconvenience for the ecosystem so just to give you some example about one of the things that I was personally thinking of um I was thinking of um a chain signatures right in chain abstraction so um can we potentially leave in the world when chain signature provider is actually not a service on near but rather a separate company that has its own token and in order to be able to access the chain signature service you need to pay this token to

115. 1:13:04

     the you need to use this token right obviously I mean if if it would be not near who is build in it and but a third party business uh they were would be able to do this service exactly in this type and manner however then we're going to come to a situation when there is these chain signature provider somebody else can launch their own chain signature provider with their own token and others and others so many chain signature providers that's good because there is a

116. 1:13:36

     competition between them but the token aspect here and that the application who is going to use the chain signature provider as infrastructure now for the applications this thing becomes very complicated because they need to think about which change signature provider takes what token they need to manage the balances of these tokens and suddenly everything becomes very very complicated just for one simple tool that just needs to sign and a

117. 1:14:10

     transaction that goes to another Network right and I'm not even talking about uh the inability to migrate accounts from one chain signature provider to another chain signature provider so if you started with one and then you at some point transition into the second you still need to use the first one for the old accounts that you created and stuff like that so this is this use case is an

118. 1:14:34

     example of a complicated place where introducing businesses and uh instead of making something a public good actually makes things very inconvenient for everybody else so uh so if the chain signature if if we would be living in the world when we were thinking about chain signatures um only now when the infrastructure committee is here and we would be deciding uh to create an RFP for doing the chain signatures I would strongly

119. 1:15:14

     vouch for making it a public good instead of pushing it to become a proper business with a business model yeah that that's I think that really really interesting point to consider and uh as there's more features you know available more of these type of services right it becomes down to you know how do I start to think about that in my own product because one of the things that I think I always try to preach personally is that if you're moving building on the open web and

120. 1:15:48

     you're trying to move to this is that getting away from the lock in that has happened in web too right of like if if I build on Google Cloud yeah I can migrate if you've ever tried to do it like it's it's a giant pain in the ass and so that's where I it sounds like here that the more we can set people up to be successful as a public good for that infra uh really helps builders in the long term but it also helps the

121. 1:16:17

     general ecosystem uh as a whole more so than just like uh like you said info for the sake of being infra Eric I want to PIV a little bit to like some of pigot's role here where um you know you guys are building stuff and you are Towing this line of you know what is a public good and where do we actually maybe need to make money ourselves uh as well how does that decision making kind of come into all of this like where do

122. 1:16:48

     you start to see yourselves as part of this larger uh development ecosystem yeah um generally speaking we've been building public goods uh at this point and um I can't certainly don't speak for the past and I can't necessarily speak for the future but at this point pagot is not trying to um be a tot like an independent profit making entity we are engineering arm for the near ecosystem

123. 1:17:16

     as a whole the near Foundation um but when we if we don't think about everything we do in economic terms it's bad for the ecosystem bad for the community U and just a a example of that is um the new ecosystem acquired an RPC provider when it was just getting started um obviously like as a brand new blockchain M and you know no there's not going to be every other RPC providor jumping in to do it so pagoto or sort of it's its predecessor built one and uh

124. 1:17:55

     and it's been operated basically for free with pretty high rate limits ever since then and that's kind of good for near applications but um but it also means that uh it's crowded out um others from the market um others who could provide Oly a higher level of service for a fair price um it's hard to compete with pagota providing kind of a medium level of service for a free price so just um coming back to what Alex just said like for for basically

125. 1:18:27

     everything that pagota does where we can we hope to to at least charge at cost for for for running it um going forward um while this um might impact the economics of applications running on near um it really is a better way of Distributing even the same amount of of of funding and it'll help encourage more competition it helps encourage more decentralization it helps encourage

126. 1:18:55

     every service to get better and to get cheaper and to get more efficient um and it means that uh if you're building something you uh on near you don't have this um this really difficult decision of whether to go towards to whether to use for instance pigot's RPC service on on near on um you know may not. n.org which is uh I mean we're proud of it we've made a ton of improvements as far as scaling reliability goes in the last six months so if you feel like it's a terrible service you should try it again it is really Leaps and Bounds over where

127. 1:19:26

     it was um but uh we don't want to be the only RPC surface and so we're really excited about um about sort of putting some billing infrastructure around things not to not to get ourselves rich but just to encourage the centralization and make sure that um that that costs are allocated accurately across the ecosystem for sure I think uh RPC is a really prominent example with like like you were saying it's improved over the last six months and I think it was about

128. 1:19:58

     six or months ago we had those problems where a lot of people were just using the Pagoda RPC uh and there were some issues around there and then we had other providers like uh lava Network come in and offer that sort of more decentralized approach I think uh we we've had some really good examples here of of what the infrastructure committee is doing maybe we can get more into like how can people get involved with with looking at these requests for proposals

129. 1:20:30

     making their own proposals and maybe even from a community side how uh people can have their voices heard uh and if they're not happy with the RPC services or the uh the wallets that are being provided how can they make their their voice heard and hope for like a a request for proposal yeah basically how can you bug Eric easily as possible exactly um I'm I can share my screen and kind of walk through a little of that so um we had a manual process for a while

130. 1:21:08

     that involved uh folders Google documents and Google spreadsheets and um a little probably a little hard to follow um but now we have uh a new portal product from devhub um and this is probably the primary place where people should go to look at um what are are coming in and then how to submit a proposal so I can I can show that let me yeah let's do that see Google slides and while Trenton is pulling that up I can mention that uh

131. 1:21:38

     many features in this portal might look familiar to you because we've built upon many of the lessons that we had um overbuilding the devhub uh portal over the last year uh where we've done uh decision making on hundreds of proposals across various work groups and defitely learned a lot you know by talking with community members and different uh organizations within the ecosystem and how do we make the whole process end to

132. 1:22:02

     end easier from from idea to decision and sponsorship so uh right now uh we're trying to enable other uh entities like infrastructure committee and others to be able to leverage these tools uh and hopefully in the future make them Self Service as well so yeah with that trenen take it away yeah so here's couple QR codes I hope they work um to one will get you to the new portal uh and the other one takes you to our GitHub um so the GitHub

133. 1:22:34

     is um around organizing issues mostly projects and issues that's between both the committee and some of the other teams that are implementing projects for us and we're helping to manage those on the um on the GitHub side but more importantly it has a discussion area where we've been discussing a lot of these proposals and then a Wiki which has a lot of Articles not all finished

134. 1:22:56

     yet uh to give you some information about what the committee does what the working group does uh how to to submit a proposal the the funding process and and all those different topics um and I'll I can share my screen too as well here in a moment to kind of walk you through a couple of those so you can see them for real um so really the process the the flow is pretty simple right so you generally you have a request for proposal uh which is

135. 1:23:21

     a document that kind of goes through some specifications the request the problem maybe some potential Solutions and things the idea is that the Comm the committee can communicate to the public this is what we're looking for uh this is how you win the proposal um so then you read the RFP look at it and you can actually in this in this product then just re respond to the uh RFP and submit a proposal so you go you create your

136. 1:23:48

     proposal here um there is a link on the about page that takes you to some um mark marown uh so you can just copy and paste that markdown if you want to to get a nice structure it prompts you for a lot of information that I have uh recognize the committee is looking for so I included it in that template uh to help prompt for that information um you submit your proposal that creates uh the ability for people that didn't have a

137. 1:24:12

     discussion under that proposal so people can provide attestations uh comments um and questions that then the proposal submitter could answer or clarify um and then of course on both of those sides both the RFP side and the proposal side um there's this really Nifty tracking on on the side of the page that shows you the status of that RFP and the status of that proposal and where it's at in the

138. 1:24:36

     process um so yeah I uh I think I can remove this from the stage sorry it's my first time using this tool um you're doing great and then let me see if I can share my screen it's okay here we go and I get the I'm gonna do a window so I can switch back and forth between it there you go sure all right and then let me switch this over to this before I do it there hey all right see if this

139. 1:25:12

     works yes there you go all right so this is the live site um infrastructure committee portal um a couple things to point out some people have had uh some confusion this left hand side uh here is the actual um uh The Hub site um these are the the the links that you use to navigate like near Soul or dev. n.org um so this lower leftand corner uh is your actual login and shows your icon of the person that's currently logged in so everything else on the right side is the portal itself as you can see there's a

140. 1:25:45

     few links here most of you will not see the admin link so you can just ignore that um but there's the proposals rfps and then our about page and this shows who is logged in so obviously if you're looking for rfps um you're going to come to the RFP section it's going to have a list of current rfps in their status for instance this cool RFP uh is a test RFP I used to for demonstration purposes and

141. 1:26:08

     it's currently accepting submission so if you click on the RFP it takes you into the details so you can see here there's a submission deadline uh it's clearly at the top and then a timeline of what's the where the RP is at and you'll notice this handy button at the top here where you can just submit a proposal and we'll go into that here in a second and this is kind of some boiler plate that I just put in to show people

142. 1:26:33

     uh to give them an idea of kind of what we're looking for um and then some boiler play at the bottom that shows our process and how we select it the dates that are going to be required and how the funding process works and how you communicate with us um so then you can go to proposal so if you click this button it it goes to the same interface uh as you see from this side this is the proposals will show a list of proposals we currently

143. 1:26:56

     have one uh new uh proposal submission into the new process um so you can click into the proposal and again uh shows us the author what they're asking for um they've also completed the fractal verification uh which is a really nice um speed up of the funding process so it normally happens kind of offline in a manual way and so this is a way to to kind of uh speed that up move that through the process quicker um and

144. 1:27:27

     then as you can see they used our template the boiler plate um and put in the details and then of course on the side here is this timeline uh that shows you what state that that particular proposal is in and you can share it um so the about page just gives you the the kind of the overview of the committee if if it will actually thank you buddy um it will link to it here you go so uh just talks about important links actually our areas of funding is

145. 1:27:57

     going to be changing there's a couple areas that we're no longer looking for submissions so that will be modified here soon and then the link to the proposal markup um we're also again we're working on some things like our valuation criteria our code of contact and our terms and conditions so again there's just a a lot of stuff hot and heavy going on in the infrastructure committee obviously a limited amount of time we're talking about some some important people with companies of their own to run and things to do so um be

146. 1:28:22

     patient with the with the committee as they as they work work through all these things looks awesome yeah I think I mean obviously really well organized and makes sense of how to start doing that let's say I want to just follow along I want to just be you know see what's going on is it simply just coming and checking these different posts um are there public meetings that people can

147. 1:28:46

     also attend uh we currently don't have um public meetings although uh the the committee has reserved right to request uh proposal submitters to to attend a meeting so we have a separate time set aside for that if we want to invite someone to uh uh infrastructure meeting we're currently meeting weekly uh just because of the volume of things that need to be accomplished and the things we're trying to get set up okay

148. 1:29:12

     and the regular Cadence is going to be bi-weekly um so yeah we're g we're working on a blogging mechanism um which will'll probably temporarily use GitHub and I'm hoping at some point it will be actually in the portal um so we're going to start putting together weekly blogs to keep people informed about the status and and where we're at on things so they can they can keep up with that and I'm hoping that that makes its way into some

149. 1:29:34

     of the regular newsletters that you see out there like the daily newsletter and the Weekly Newsletter from near week um so yeah I mean that's that's definitely on our plate um just like I said there's a still a lot of groundwork that we're we're working on to get things set up and uh so that we haven't got quite to that point yet yeah I mean it certainly takes a lot of time and and effort to get all this up

150. 1:29:59

     together uh let's kind of just you know uh as we're I think we've really come to a point where I think it's really clear of like where general direction is but can we talk a little bit about like I guess like longterm like where did this committee actually feel like they're going like you know in a year from now is this something where the majority of this type of you know all infrastructure is coming through this committee or is it still very you know do you feel like it becomes more specialized what are the

151. 1:30:30

     thoughts around that I'll I'll jump in I mean it's really hard like we're not here to necessarily predict that at the moment um I think what we've been learning as an ecosystem is that there's room for different um different kinds of decision-making apparatuses on the way from like mayet launch to a fully decentralized future and there's some value in having a committee like this one um that can sort of come together and use their expertise and

152. 1:31:03

     conversations in order to to help make decisions with a little bit of a less structured decision-making criteria and there's value in the model that you see on on on devhub where um you know everything's totally public and there's there very clear rubrics and there's model there's value in the model you see if you go to potlock um which you haven't if you haven't checked out I highly recommend at potlock org pfck um which is a different public

153. 1:31:27

     goods funding mechanism um and so we're we're we've always been in a bit of an experimental phase um trying out different decision-making mechanisms Grant making mechanisms in order to figure out the best way to create um a fantastic platform people build on this will continue to evolve um so I think we're still in early days of figuring out what works best um shortterm and long term

154. 1:31:54

     yeah for I mean I think that certainly makes sense right I think everything everything kind of feels a little bit like an experiment right now but uh if you don't try some of the stuff right you can't figure that out I do want to I know we're coming up on top of the hour here but I do want to kind of end with you know those who are you know building but maybe they not actually wanting to build infrastructure they're just building their own project you know

155. 1:32:19

     what's the best way for them to really know what's available to them related to infrastructure how do I start to maybe pick and choose of what am I actually going to build with I can Chim in uh how do you know which service to use in web to world you search so this is the universal answer uh I guess even for near as well I think there is no Universal solution better than just look around and uh be connected uh so definitely uh Shameless

156. 1:32:53

     plug uh devhub could help you out with onboarding and just learning uh your way um you can ask in the chats you can ask on St orlow you can uh attend these the lovely devhub live calls or subscribe to the newsletter to keep keep yourself updated um I think there is uh from the infrastructure comme point of view we want to make sure that the infrastructure uh players are well supported and we uh build the found the

157. 1:33:27

     strong Foundation out there uh and then we rely on each individual project to actually do their marketing and do their uh their own part of the story to make sure that the world knows about them but yeah maybe somebody wants to jump in share their perspective I think at some point in time there will be uh um kind of a version of um some kind of a business oriented documentation for near ecosystem as a whole where we'll be you know here are the RPC providers if you

158. 1:34:07

     want to be in this list just submit some kind of something here here is the information about what what are the Explorers here though we now have uh the block Explorer selector or whatever how it is called I don't know how it is called um here are the wallets that potentially can integrate in and and work with because for many applications Integrations with wallets can bring some benefits because wallets can bring users and applications can are going to get

159. 1:34:33

     these users right so usually there is some kind of uh there is something to discuss there so they might be some kind of map of the of the near ecosystem uh something like awesome near um maybe maybe awesome near is enough who knows maybe we just need to to to push infrastructure providers to also submit their applications or going submit their projects there um yeah so discoverability is always great uh but in general you

160. 1:35:07

     know some some handheld then from from devhub would be a great thing uh for everybody who is just newbie and is trying to figure his way out u in this in the in this complicated world of the blockchain yeah for sure I think uh to quickly add to that um we're coming up well we've past time here really so we should wrap up but um right now what there is is uh you were saying for example a list of RPC providers and like

161. 1:35:42

     requesting or adding yourself there uh right now there's uh a list of RPC providers that are available on there and that's part of the documentation and if you don't know as part of the docs um it's all hosted like on on GitHub so you can come along on the docs and if you scroll down to the B bottom of any um docs. n.org page you can just click edit this page uh and make a PO request to have your RPC listed there and also if you want to um for example we just had

162. 1:36:16

     reclaim protocol integrate and we're looking on how we can fit uh businesses and and infrastructure providers into our docs so um come along into like the the public channels and the documentation group and discuss uh like how we can best fit your your product and your services into the docs and like I say it's it's sort of permissionless so feel free to open a PR uh to have your your work featured

163. 1:36:53

     Joe you're muted thanks everyone for joining I really appreciate that the beauty of life um I really appreciate you guys coming on and talking about this I think this is really important for people to understand both if you're interested just in the community as a whole but especially if you're a developer uh to understand again where a lot of this infrastructure is coming from uh how it

164. 1:37:17

     gets funded how you can get involved and all that stuff and so as you guys continue to do more as a committee certain love to have you guys back on talk more about some of the things that are coming down the pipeline um but this was a really great introduction and I I really appreciate everyone's time uh thank you guys I I'd love to thank everyone just in in general for the their commitment to the ecosystem as

165. 1:37:41

     well like everyone here has had such a huge impact on there and you as well thanks Care thank you all right so you know ow and I thought that was uh really nice to really get a full overview of you know what's actually you know being done on the infrastructure site because that's somewhat of a a blackbox for developers where it's like where am I supposed to actually get some of these different

166. 1:38:14

     resources from and who is going to actually be building some of the stuff yeah def definitely interesting com ation and I think not just the topic at hand was interesting but but the people we had there like like I say some ogs and and real smart people that have contributed a lot to the ecosystem yeah no for sure I you know one of the things too you know I will definitely continue to encourage people

167. 1:38:45

     like to continue to be involved I that was great advice about the doc piece and so you know uh going on there uh it is open to anyone you know giving feedback and contributing we want you know community members to actually be part of all of this uh you know join our newsletter uh make sure that you're following along with everything because there is a lot of things that are still happening this is early days for all of crypto still uh so new infrastructure is coming new partners are coming in uh we're

168. 1:39:16

     certainly highlighting it in our newsletter each week but just in general that discoverability is really tough right now and so you know the more you can kind of stay plugged in and follow along I think it'll be a better better situation for everyone yeah it's it's really hard to uh take a step back when when there's so much happening uh like the the ecosystem is is full of movement full of awesome things happening and uh yeah yeah yeah definitely I I think I've been loving

169. 1:39:50

     the newsletter recently instead of having to get my news from Twitter I can just open up this uh newsletter once a week and see all the recent developments uh related to Dev Stu fun here uh definitely follow we we can't chill it enough no no no that absolutely uh you know as we wrap up here uh next week uh again we we have some more guests coming on talking about uh we some more more infrastructure and tooling stuff uh I will have an announcement uh later in

170. 1:40:28

     the week about that uh we're going to continue to bring more I think you know of this type of stuff where people can really understand like how do you actually get involved and actually build on there that's what we're really going for and again if you have anything that you want to see bring up you can always reach out to us uh on Twitter on our different socials uh you know come check

171. 1:40:52

     those out uh and again a as always uh we encourage people to you know keep sharing and keep getting involved because uh this whole entire ecosystem is dependent on uh people like you anyone anything you want to end on here I think I think you wrapped us up nicely as always so perfect see you next week guys all right see you until next time devhub live we'll see you next week take care