DevHub Live 10 - Guest: Reclaim Protocol

Captions as YouTube publishes them, usually machine-generated, so product and people names can be misheard.

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   if um our protocol was our primary source of Revenue and we had like a fee um baked into the protocol that um you know like we were charging 2% fees or something and it was baked in the smart contract someone could just like take our openal smart contract deploy it and then change that feed to be zero for example and even in that situation like think about the amount of people that are going to be using this um if one out

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   of every 20 Forks the Keyon protocol makes changes as a rust developer understands like you know needs to dig into to the code see where the fees are understand how to change it turn it off and like integrate it back into their own app um again I don't really care uh a lot people I think underestimate how much work that really is and how much you really have to execute on some of

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   this stuff for it to really be meaningful one of the things that comes to mind here with all this AI stuff right is like re reliability of the AI itself how are you guys approaching that like I saw like we showed you the transaction before it did it didn't just like execute on its own but what are other mechanisms you guys are thinking about to you know protect against that yeah uh so just kind of like uh when you go into an exchanges and you

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   put in a sloppy number and then some pops up and says hey you idiot why why are you or if something's over let's say 25 bucks or something we can start putting safe guards into the system that basically says are you sure this looks like a pretty intense thing you're trying to do um also on the road map is starting to build the fraud protection uh mechanisms and then when we start

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    importing uh other AI agents um that's when we're really going to have to uh dig deep in making sure that uh it's not doing anything that you don't want like let's say Let's Do a Swap and then the reality is the transaction that gets built uh sends half of your fund to someone else so if you you go into Minas and you make a transaction you can drill into all of what you're doing right we

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    show what functions you're calling on what contract how much of each different piece you're doing uh we also built an AI agent that explains with human readable text uh what the transaction is that you're trying to do so it's it's weird to say that AI fixes everything but it it's it kind of is and we know things could could get tricky if we get too far ahead of ourselves so we believe to stop marketing start engaging and that's what we're doing over at devhub is that now the focus is

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    no longer just about let's sell you something on why near is the best developer experience which it is right we all know it that's that's why we're here but we want to actually start to engage you as a user and better understand what do you need and how do we help you be successful instead of us trying to put our product to you want

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    you hey everybody we are live again here at devhub I am your host Joe I am going to be with you all hour uh we have another exciting uh episode coming up uh we have Roman from reclaim protocol coming on and we have a new co-host for this episode Owen from devhub who's one of our awesome Dev rails so this is going to be really exciting episode we have tons of stuff to go over uh and one of the Bigg things about reclaim coming on

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    is not just because they recently integrated with near but they've also actually received uh one of the grants through devhub too so just to show how all that works in action uh together so without further Ado let's get them both on stage here and uh get into it Roman Owen how's it going everyone what's up how's it going happy to be here nice to nice to meet you guys nice to meet you

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    and thanks for coming on uh it's you know I know you guys have been doing a lot uh and working with a lot of different protocols and stuff like that but uh you recently have come to near uh and started you know doing work on near here can you talk a little bit about like what reclaim is first and then we can kind of get into more of the integration stuff yeah sure uh so reclaim protocol is a basically in Broad Strokes is a tool for data like self-governance of data so our goal is

16. 12:25

    to allow every user to be able to manage their personal data of any kind basically if you can imagine yourself as a you know some sort of a digital entity you will have millions of digital Footprints you live around as your you know viewing patterns in on YouTube or deliveries in Uber or your rights or you know a million different things so right now access to those things uh is basically bared situation became a little better in the you know past 5 to

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    10 years with all new legislations coming and uh developed economies so like gdpr or California digital act they they trying you know to find a footstep to protect people to allow them to manage their data that's why you can order a dump of your you know of all the information from Twitter or from uh Facebook but to be honest it's not a lot of use because it's very unstructured data it's just like a text archive with everything so you as a regular user you

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    have no you know tools to operate and since you don't have tools there are no products utilizing this data and you know we believe it's uh it's very valuable because uh the data is a you know new oil of of this like digital generation so uh we want it like and we built a tool which ultimately allows people to manage their own dat of course you know if if we're getting closer to exact details right now we are building

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    some connections ourselves so we're trying to find great use cases we're trying to help developers and since you know the web 3 and crypto is our Homebase operations of course networks and specifically uh near was one of the first ones we we decided to go to provide you know any like not only web2 data but any data as a ZK proof I think it might be very useful in many many for sure can you talk a little bit

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    more about like some of this data that's actually becoming available because I think one thing that I commonly hear just in my own experience is that like there's this hard division between like web 3 data and then like web two data yeah but it sounds like you guys are saying that like we need to be able to integrate both and so you're leading that way uh yeah absolutely you're absolutely right so when I came into

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    space a few years ago you know I I saw a very different narrative for the space everyone was uh crypto Maxi so like abandon all the old things burn them down and built everything a new on top of the ashes right but uh in reality and we saw that during the Beer Market uh it's it's not possible we are web 3 is a continuation of web 2 not a completely new construct so we we believe that it's super important to build this bridge and this data Oracle definitely going to be

22. 15:32

    this bridge in terms of which data exactly is available that's the most mind-blowing thing it's basically any data you see as a user in any web interface so would it be you know your deliveries or your Banking balance or your professional credentials or ownership of a certain nft if you can see it on a on a website is now available not only on chain but with uh with web like this web to data

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    source yeah and I abely believe that you know both web 3 data and web two should be combined I was uh I was working in analytics for a long time and I see it as a like very well-rounded U approach to research your wallid data matching it with the with classical analytics tools which are you know available on all across the web yeah that's really interesting so you guys are almost like this middleman but that middleman's fully programmable so it's up to me as the developer and

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    product owner to say I want let's say I want this data from deliveries and I can then make that connection but then make it we'll call it like web 3 safe is that a good yeah well safe is you know uh yeah it's already taken but yeah that's a very right way to think about it yeah uh so we we're planning we're planning it and we're building it as an open source tool so it's already operating you have a def creative platform so exactly as you described if you have any ideas of what

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    you might need from user data you go there and you build this connector most like in in most cases it takes around 30 minutes to you know to make it from scratch and it's even available for non- tech people pretty you know pretty easy Soo thing uh yeah but the reason why we planned it as an open source is much bigger because we we're not using any apis so basically we're working on top

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    of the TLs protocol and uh the you know this partial data disclosure allows us to uh mark down the page and basically understand where the data we need coming from so that isn't you know it's a it's an incredible U competitive Advantage right like we don't have to ask or uh permissions from the website we need only a permission like a direct permission from the user and you know he's managing his data but on the other hand if the website it's one of the most

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    frequently asked questions what happens when you know the web page changes the changes should apply to the uh provider data provider as well should be renewed remade uh absolutely uncontrollable for the team of let's say 100 if potentially will have 1,000 providers you know 100 providers of different types for Facebook MH 50 providers for Twitter measuring likes or interaction like personal interactions in DMS that's something possible with

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    reclaim uh we feel those people they will uh maintain and use their own personal providers on top of that acting as a sort of a Marketplace of data solution so probably most likely they will be able to somehow monetize it not not tying it completely exactly to the onchain you know usage I think in the past um onchain data uh getting data onchain from offchain most of it's been done through oracles right so how do you guys sort of compare to a traditional Oracle system

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    we have like as as you know it's a great segue from uh us not needing the apis so that's the biggest uh uh the biggest you know Improvement in terms of ease of getting the data for the whole Z kls space we're not the only player but I believe technically we are very very far away from all other Solutions both in you know usability and uh like Readiness of the market so everything is sorry my my screen is blinking because of the lights sunset in Lisbon very beautiful

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    um yeah so as I was as I was telling the the biggest upsite is that you can build Provider from uh from any website the downside is that there are certain technical let's say exclusions like rare like edge cases when they use some sort of a their own cryptography or when the uh the page is dynamic or stuff like that you know so but uh we we believe firmly that it's a scalable approach and like right now we have a few project in

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    the pipelines uh that going to use a lot of those providers and we're seeing how it might be implemented right now it's made inside of the team but I believe we will be able to provide like you know great tutorials and instruction for the type of projects for everyone who wants to develop on on Rea product yeah I've actually been in touch with you guys on a more like personal level

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    because uh I'm building a project called ve and we're looking to see how we can maybe use reclaim protocol to bring uh Esports data on chain so I'm uh I'm interested to continue the conversation there s surprisingly uh you know web free gaming was a big um a potentially big Market because like we have a lot of interests coming from gaming it's uh his like it's a it's a it's an enormous web to Industry with a lot of a lot of data a lot of personal data and uh your let's

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    say gaming network is uh basically your number of hours played in a certain game or your you know skills uh represented by a certain rating on a website so we'll already have a few cases when when we use that data in helping our partners to passest that into into you know their product and potentially web you mentioned the con like a Marketplace a little bit so that I think that's really interesting because like

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    as you mention like data's really becoming this like hot commodity I think with the AI stuff and I think just in general a lot of the things that are happening in web 3 you're real seeing is like it's all just data driven so is that for for you well you guys don't want to build all these API connections because that's that's a lot to host all of the time is that Marketplace though

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    the I guess the long-term vision of like where you really drive the protocol or is that become like almost a separate thing like the business of reclaim and then the protocol stays its own thing it's it's a really good question you know I wouldn't say that this is a very very fresh idea right like to give people the right to sell their data I believe like multiple web two companies tried to do exactly so right you you're filling like some questionaries and

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    getting like five bucks out of it so uh it tends to be it tends to be them selling your data though instead yeah yeah yeah so there were like startups trying to make some brokerage you know to make it more fair for you as a user so you deciding are you selling it or not of course in all other cases the whole you know live blood of digital I'm coming from web to marketing so I know

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    that almost like like every scent earned there is coming from reselling user you know to to Advertiser and to do that they know crazy details about your life I I would say that probably companies like meta and Google they know more about you then you probably might know about yourself based on those digital Footprints with this but with the with a self- serve tool with an ability to

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    really govern your data so let's say instead of selling your profile one time to to a certain company for $5 you will have this wallet of uh of hundreds hundreds of uh verifications different proofs of absolutely different aspects of your life and for those purposes you know for for different companies it might be applicable for some not and you mentioned Ai and ML and web3 a very big use case as well so maybe it going to be

39. 24:24

    you know a um a method to crowdsource the data sets very you know very clear data sets without any disturbances coming from real people because they sort of evaluated themselves and you know it's exactly what he wants it's it's very interesting we we're just you know entering this era where like past initial AA C but I feel a lot of new updates will be be there in the coming six 12 months yeah really I mean I think it's a

40. 24:57

    really interesting question period like never mind like the integration to web 3 like you said just like how does this data all get handled is it though a concern where and maybe this isn't something you guys are worried about because you're trying to be also a protocol of like let's say I build an integration to something like Twitter you know and so is that something where you say like you want to form a

41. 25:21

    partnership with Twitter or X whatever you want to call it um to have that data or you simply saying look we're will help you provide this this integration to pull data that like sits on top of that API that's already there or you know like how does it all kind of fit do you get what I'm beginning at like I'm how that all fits together it's it's the letter so basically as a reclaim protocol we're trying to provide our technology provide access uh

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    to to extract certain data so our goal is to maintain it to be as uh you know as fast as uh fail safe as possible and and then like you know I I don't even I can't even imagine all the use cases so it would be absolutely in say to try to guess what can be built so we started with with the with a list of like Primitives you know a basic list of most popular services like uber binance everyone used but it it grew out of control the list became

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    so big so fast so we're not even trying to guess at this point but would say go ahead yeah uh what would you say your you said you can't guess the amount of use cases right but what would you say your favorite possible use cases are what are you most excited to see that's that's a great question I have I have two actually one for web 3 and one for web two for web 3 is pretty obvious it's

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    like civil resistance so uh same concept as passport but it's based not on your on chain merits because you know every I think everyone saw the latest debac about uh layer zero airdrop right like how they judge on who's cable who's not like is it the real person and what if he holds like 50 wallets you know should we pay him so and it's all based on uh you know on interactions on change so they're looking for patterns in our case

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    uh all those Services you use as a real person you can just uh transport the value of money you spent there so let's say you have Spotify you pay if $ each month we have some Uber rights each month from $3 to $50 it's already like $50 add some groceries sorted online or volumes on binance or something like that then you attach the monetary value to all of that you combine it and you will have a score of so-call it's a well-known concept proof of forgery so

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    it will be absolutely impossible to penetrate from the Cil side because the the the cost of forgery going to be so high it's just impossible to spend those amounts on with the with the outcome of air drops we're seeing right now so I think it's like 100% fail prooof because users skip their you know their privacy with them with themselves because they're not actually associating their personal data with uh with themselves it's just like a wallet with a bunch of

47. 28:23

    Badges and it might be invisible as well um well see uh the The Meta for you know for acquiring users is transforming so I feel a lot of people starting to understand that it's better to have like 500 real users like a tighted community rather than hundreds of thousands of bots just liking everything and asking about their Dr comments for for web to it might be even uh I really really enjoy this use case I

48. 28:53

    hope to see it implemented soon enough so basically reclaim a allows to do vampire attacks for marketing uh as we discussed all all the uh performance advertising basically you buying the ads on Facebook or Google using sets of personal data they either have them inside and you give them enough money so they can find your audience or you're providing them with some prerequisites

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    right like you already know your cohorts like their emails or region or their like level of s whatever right so for for e-commerce it's quite a unique case because imagine you you know you're online drugstore so you're acquiring new users you're constantly growing you got a new round of investment and besides doing uh you know organic acquisition uh you are buying a lot of a lot of traffic so and it's a vicious cycle uh the problem with the buying traffic you can't stop so

50. 29:54

    you're either like completely stopping it and losing sometime restarting it or you constantly scaling budget the problem with that is you don't know the quality of the people who are coming to a platform because you just see registrations you see initial orders but you don't have any Vision in terms of their you know life Lifeline of 6 to 12 to two years uh you know you will you will get like uh honest results only when the time comes and you might see

51. 30:25

    that all of those who are BS which is you know a big case with let's say mobile application installations because it's quite easy to imitate the real users you're installing the app you're tapping in you're opening transaction Windows you're closing in maybe you even do like a few purchases from the whole farm so when analytics are trying to look into your specific traffic they see

52. 30:48

    that's it's not the best but it's normal and they they scaling up your budget what reclaim allows is that service can provide a discount or some bonus to newcomers or to all users as well that way they will like click a button and they will uh they will be requested to connect some other e-commerce services like Amazon let's say the biggest one or their compet they direct competitors the chances that this person makes his first purchase online are not that big right

53. 31:21

    so probably there are some historical information coming from Amazon you will see what type of product the person is buying the sizes the frequency there is a lot of data in those in this like purchase field and on top of that it it validates the acquisition Channel because BS can't connect their history and you know that you know that that you have like organic traffic acquisition so let's say 1 million people coming to your platform new users every month and

54. 31:52

    let's say 3% of them are using this bonus feature to connect their accounts and you get data out of them if you're seeing that out of this cohort of aquar traffic only let's say half of a%c doing that something probably is not is not right so it give a very nice Baseline for for a lot of things in e-commerce I like how sort of uous this use case might be really interesting I think the the piece

55. 32:24

    that I think people often forget is that like the biggest way to dissuade a lot of the especially like the Civil attacks really is purely Financial like it just it's simply where like it's a numbers game for these groups and if they feel like they can outdo it so by pulling in that other thing that's that's really it's a very interesting approach yeah the problem the problem with onchain is that like you're constantly forced to

56. 32:53

    you know move weights you need to carefully apply how much money you like people stake or like how many transactions what the time difference should be but it's very it's like a arm race right like when when those Farmers they acquire the information about how how much you know should exactly be staked you you you're forced to move the weights again yeah I'm wondering um sorry with

57. 33:23

    these uh you you said like badges ATT tied to a wallet that maybe representing like Identity or or something um how are these like badges being stored are they like uh sort of fungible token um nonf funable tokens or um soulbound tokens this sort of thing that that's a great question uh so it was a part of the initial conversation what exactly we want to have as a end result of of proof creation right so we started with reclaim wallet which is not longer

58. 33:58

    operational so it's a small spoiler to what conclusion we arrived to uh it it holded like all of your badges but we decided to go more over to the um open source like technology provider infrastructure provider that was one of the reasons we're implementing with chains with new specifically just to build this initial channel right so people like in the near ecosystem all the developers they now can use reclaim Tech to to put those badges in any form

59. 34:30

    they want would it be on chain would it be an nft so I know you you uh have like a beautiful mint base in Marketplace maybe that's something we can build with them or let's say you have sweat where definitely you can transfer your physical activities from different applications and sources right so I'm not sure that ultimately putting everything on chain is is a is a good idea especially when

60. 34:59

    it comes to very personal sensitive data even with ZK proofs right because you generally don't want to keep those things online but for some things you know for number of games you played or some other bragging rights you have you might want to make it into an NFC or make a dynamic NFC for instance interesting and I wonder with um one of the big narratives with n at the moment is the idea of chain abstraction and as part of chain abstraction we have this

61. 35:32

    product uh chain signatures um so I wonder if these uh this this information that's being uploaded to near uh when you're actually getting out on the Chain whether you could use the chain signatures um sort of together to broadcast this information to like every single chain um because currently you can send transactions to any uh EC DSA based chain so like ethereum and whatever do you see any um use case

62. 36:10

    there I hope that that would be a use case I'm a big you know supporter of chain abstraction and unifying the whole Space so I I see future quite modular when we use one chain for one thing for financial transaction the other as a storage the third one as a loyalty layer Etc so it's really important to to be more user friendly so that's definitely like a huge step into this direction because people like Regular users they don't care about what chain is you know powering their experience and ideally

63. 36:43

    they don't even know it's it's a blockchain look at you know the biggest case of the last few years was Reddit I bet like it's so popular but I bet not a lot of people on Reddit knows that polygon you know Powers their their nft experience so I hope that definitely like all the proofs going to be uh transferable yeah but you know it's still a developing narrative so we we will actually need to look into it I will I will speak with our engineering team to learn more about that because it's

64. 37:14

    potentially might be important for all other developments one thing I think may be good to clarify and even for myself is just a little bit of like so there's no like when you say that there's these different connections and you know I'm let's say like I'm pulling in data say from Spotify use that example uh who has access to it at any particular moment is it simply just the call that was made at the time like is it just in time or is

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    it something where some of the stuff is actually being stored in some way that's a really important question because you know ZK proof's privacy personal data web three narratives right now uh the only entity that sees the data besides you uh is the U the validator so it's it's like um a validator that valid validates the origion of the information so the website it checks that it's really let say Facebook and the data itself that it wasn't tempered with on your side on your device or during this transition

66. 38:25

    period so basically TLS all the security here but this validator sees let's say your name or just a bunch of numbers if it's a Banking balance right it doesn't know what exactly validates and you know from from who it's coming so besides that it's completely yours it's kept on your device uh as a in a form of ZK proof and of course you know building all those products it it basically applies that you transferring your data to to the request so we're building

67. 38:56

    those bridges as well but uh in most cases uh it's it's very uh uh you know it's highlighted that basically what's going to happen and uh one thing I love it's like a natural uh prerequisite for the whole flow that the person needs to log in in the same portal himself so I think that builds sort of a certain level of trust because first of all you you know you're making completely sure a person understand what type of data he can he can um sort of share with with

68. 39:29

    people and then it's basically like a hard consent like a a required action to to do that it requires some some time and will to do that so we're absolutely sure that you know the person is motivated enough so me as the developer let's say so I set I set a particular threshold maybe of like what I expect to learn from the data so not maybe actual I'm not getting like a like a Json set of data from something right I'm just

69. 40:00

    getting a result of based off of some logic or am I getting the actual uh it depends on your needs so we basically have two layers the first layer is web two layer and in this layer the form the structure of information you're getting might be you know uh whatever you want so it's discussible uh in terms uh of how user sees that data in uh in like our ecosystem is just like uh

70. 40:26

    informational card when you see a Macos for the data which will be put like a name uh street address etc etc and on the product side it's completely up to them how to display this data or not to display it at all complete just you know as in this case with Amazon and like when tax on Ecom you can just keep it on yourself and show the you know the green check mark that everything is good I gota so the power still lays with

71. 40:59

    the end user of how so even as a developer I make a so let's say I'm a malicious developer I I'm actually just trying to harvest data uh if I do that using your protocol the end user still can see like oh hey this developer is trying to grab all of this and I'll be able definitely approve it yeah the user will see the the source of data even if he is misinformed about the purpose of it he he might have second thoughts and of

72. 41:30

    course I think this you know protection from bed actor is going to be a huge thing when it's when the technology is a little bit more in use when it's more popular and people are more familiar with it sure sure and with um with TLS right you say you have this uh node validating that it's actually the correct information right yeah are you able to go into at all how that works and uh is it like just just one node validating or are

73. 42:04

    there is there a net yeah a really good question as well so right now it's our Central validator like reclaim validator so it's inhouse uh it's not very good in a narrative decentralization because it's definitely centralized and though we're not keeping any data like we're keeping track on how manys were produced just to you know know what's going on potentially closer to the end of the year I think we

74. 42:29

    will release the network for external validators making it absolutely decentralized a lot of things a lot of work to put into it because there should be like a lot of security mechanisms and like honey pots because people might have an idea to uh to lie let's say to reclaim because they will validate the data which is broken so a lot of work on security side there and yeah we it going to be a wellworking construct with a dozens if

75. 43:01

    not 100 information validators and they're going to be basically charging for for validations and they probably their um value so we are thinking about attaching a certain value to different because let's say your number of of followers is in Twitter is is much less sensitive information than your Banking balance and it should be you know it should be uh visible for for the system should

76. 43:29

    be accounted let me let me know when you you launch that Network I've always wanted to get into the uh like a validator game early when the when the seat price isn't too high yeah I I I will let you know definitely is that though this mechanism and so to give like I guess some additional cont so last last week we just talked to the graph protocol and graph has been something that has been somewhat centralized for a few years now and they just recently moved to

77. 44:06

    decentralized more Manor uh and but they've always had a token that was part of some of this stuff too for you guys is this where though like I guess the the power of web 3 starts to come into play that you can actually start to set up a system that is economically feasible without you having to be the central Authority exactly yeah we you know uh with the talking it's a hard hard like a hard theme uh it's very complex so from my

78. 44:36

    experience I would say like absolutely most projects they have token just to have a token sure so to you know pull some money in it's not really participating in any decision making and if it is usually you have a whale on call so you can you know call him and ask to drop all his weight into this particular question interest yeah uh with with reclaim since you know it's a very transparent transactional thing uh we're doing so you have a certain number of proofs happening projects alive and

79. 45:08

    they they have like let's say one project has 1,000 proof the other has 10 but it's very important like expensive proofs so uh I I believe it would be possible to make it as a self-regulated mechanis sort of a real real Dow with a with an economic layer to with a real value to our tokens yeah hopefully we'll see it before the the end of the year cool does that though put some onus on you guys as the creator of the protocol

80. 45:42

    to kind of uh sensor is not the right word here but like be able to do some light moderating of like what kind of data sources are actually coming through the system or do you say at that point look at the goal to be fully decentralized the power of the people and will let anything through because I could see a scenario where you run the risk of like having some uh inappropriate data sets that are coming into the system that maybe don't fit to

81. 46:14

    the ethos of again privacy or things like that it's a it's a double-edged sort so we're still discussing that a really important issue because as you mentioned like there are not only downside to the decentralization there are upside to centralization so let's say for this Cil resistance case right U the more data you centralized collect basically you will you will be able to cut out those people in all future air drops before

82. 46:43

    they even join but for that you need like sort of a you know an overview of all users on some level which are in the system making a system centralized I I believe like the uh the general Direction going to be the full decentralization like definitely some some form of moderation some some rules there will apply because we want to have this you know this door open for us because it's it's very serious topic

83. 47:16

    like sensitive data a lot of things might potentially go if not dra they can go in in a very unexpected way so we definitely want to to have a say and like a control over the the overall narrative the product but we'll see you know it's wor would you see the would you see the Dow sort of moderating that because I I feel like that's how you sort of have some sort of centralization but decentralized decision making with a DA with making the da feels very very

84. 47:55

    appropriate yeah makes sense yeah I want to bring up let's let's actually pull your site up a little bit maybe just kind of show people kind of how started and kind of walk through it a little bit because I think there's some couple things here that I noticed right the about like one you guys have some really great if people really want to nerd out and like dive into like the white paper and stuff it's all right there which is nice I don't have to search for it um but definitely I think you guys are

85. 48:27

    introducing some really interesting topics here that we've kind of hit on a little bit already but maybe this might help a little bit here is you know I one of the things that came up when I first was looking at it was like you know you guys are making the claim that pretty much right any you know uh web data can be verifiable yeah or for that to start to happen one thing that comes to mind is like you know what is the incentive the

86. 48:57

    other side of it for like an Uber to provide access to this is are they being paid like is there a financial piece of that or is it something simply like hey we want to be able to provide more access to what we're what we're doing like where's the relationship with that uh we don't have direct relationship with all s companies so we don't build any connections with not asking for permission basically our technology

87. 49:22

    allows the user to decide to decide where he wants to you know grab his data from that comes you know the downside of that that some companies might not be happy with uh losing important data but on the other hand most likely if they're not happy that you know that means that some of their competitors using this data as as a mentioned in the Ecom example and in this case most likely they want to have the same functionality or it becomes sort of a race they're changing

88. 49:54

    you know their setup we're changing the provider if if it's a really important provider if they you know if Uber for some reason decides to fight this and elocate like a few people who going to con change the code of the page that means something it's something really important right so there is a an upside for a person who will uh constantly update the provider so you're not even needing to uh acquire like a an API to get the Uber

89. 50:23

    data how so how is it actually grabbing data uh we know where the data is kept so the only prerequisite you need to create this provider beforehand and you need to have access to the S information so you know that your number of Rights is kept on your profile number so you need to log in in a web version of wber open your profile and voila you have you have the provider built that's awesome yeah I think that's how you really you

90. 50:55

    can go on go on go on you can click like uh get started and uh we can take a quick look on what's you know start building yeah sorry bu on what's going on inside if you if you can log in with your Google account I think that's like not needing to have an API or or whatever I feel like this is how you really scale it and be able to grab any data yeah yeah as I said I feel right now we have a lot of information

91. 51:25

    you don't really own so it's not nonextractable yeah if you click new application you will see the whole list of uh you know of providers we have right now a lot of experimental one not not all of them stable disclaimer but you can see just the sheer you know number of use cases because people are just creating it have uh kyc levels on different centralized reference we have all kinds of right sharing and deliveries available and Amazon I

92. 51:57

    mentioned we are working with some universities to prove that you're student for right or we even have like some national providers which allowing you to prove that you a citizen of a certain like how long is this list it's around 160 providers and it's constantly growing there are like a lot of private ones we we're cleaning it since it's like an early middle Alpha we're not you know very very good with upkeep because we're building it much faster than we're doing our quality

93. 52:29

    control but it it just represents the sheer you know ease of of the creation process so yeah during the death connect last November I believe it was November we had this Tool uh in Alva version like in closed state so we went around the conference we found a bunch of people tell them about the product and we told them hey do you want to build something right now like in those 10 15 minutes

94. 52:54

    and a lot of people were actually you know we're able being non- technical like managers and Community guys uh were able to build different cool cool things so that's fun really I mean when you see it like this and I it definitely is making more sense now of you know where you start to see the potential of it so I think what I like two parts come to my right away is like as a developer it simplifies my thought process of like oh okay I want this particular object I can go get it

95. 53:30

    here but secondarily as an end user like I I like the fact that I'm not like just linking my whole account to something yeah you know like that's so common nowadays where like I sign up for something and it's like you know link your Twitter and it's like you're giving away all these different permissions where here it's like no no like we're just we're just going to pull your username prove that you own that username yeah and that's it and it's

96. 53:55

    like oh okay I got it like that's that's really an interesting approach to this yeah exactly I I I would I wanted to enter an airdrop yesterday but it looked a little bit suspicious so I didn't want to connect my quit my my Twitter to it maybe they should have been using reclaim instead I hope so you know people uh who care about the livess of Their audience they will eventually use something like that I believe there are a few Solutions you know going the same

97. 54:28

    direction and uh for the last 6 month I I'm seeing a great shift in terms of all the operations around the air drops and reward programs so and yeah there are some providers you can build yourself they will be visible here as well if you if you opt in for you know to making it public keep that private as well interesting yeah the private thing is really interesting part of that too and so a as a developer if I start building

98. 54:59

    with this you know I get I guess all these different connections of now how this works so where does the chain piece come in like so like why why build on integrate with near like where does that all fit into this it's uh it's a like a basically old chain integration it's a a second level of integration at First You're Building this pipeline of data you're deciding you're the you're

99. 55:22

    becoming a data controller so at the end user sends it to you if you know if if you're not planned it otherwise uh why all the chains so basically we're coming to the near community and you already have a lot of cool live products with live audience sweatcoin and Min base and like some gaming stuff and AI is coming into play right so they already on near the whole ecos the whole like

100. 55:47

     infrastructure is around near so if they need a onchain component they will just take it from the reclaim library and use it to you know to push stuff to the near chain but on the other hand like if you don't need to you know if if you don't need to to publish this data on chain you don't do that you just keep it with yourself but but on chain is definitely like a massive massively important for all the proofs in regards of AI and

101. 56:19

     everything like the big data oh that's a bad one I I have to report it we're good stuff so yes you have some documentation here looks like so your sdks that are for I guess for on the web 2 side looks like you have a react flutter is the main use uh mobile apps right now that you're seeing um not specifically I would say like we have this problem right like because you need your phone for it to

102. 56:53

     work because we're using your like device processor to to to do all the cryptography so it basically safing your your proof on your device is as that uh we don't have the solution on on desktop because that means that you either have to install a piece of software or at very least install the extension no one loves you know extension you're going to use one time or extensions which are required for some other products uh yeah so we decided to go with the mobile

103. 57:23

     approach since I I I going to bet everyone has a Mobile near them even while they're sitting at the computer so it's a QR code you scan a QR code with your mobile device any camera and instead of downloading the app it starts the app clip so it's app clip for iOS for Android instant app so basically you're downloading like half a megabyte only this piece from the app which is in charge of generating the proof you want and you will see you know the whole flow

104. 57:55

     uh zero reclaim branding basically you will just get straight to the website you need to to enter and then you get back you get redirected back to the website if you're on mobile or it just like gives you a successful you know status at the end of the flow and gets you back on the desktop what sort of proof generation time are you looking at on mobile I think the thing I love about CK is how

105. 58:24

     one of their metrics is like for proof generation is they say oh we managed to generate this proof in two minutes on a Android phone that's like 20 years old and we we dug up and it was like buried under loads of soil I really love these metrics that they be using wait of generation you're hitting when it hurts you know because it's a it's definely a huge problem so it it completely depends on your device so the older the device

106. 58:58

     we have a certain threshold so as in your example we were able to run it on you know the the prehistoric Androids like I don't know Android 304 or something like that not recommended it might take up to five minutes and then witness go it goes just goes offline because it yeah usually depends on the size of the F so let's say our standard size I I I can't even give you like the number of symbols because we're not working with

107. 59:29

     symbols but we're working with Fields right your name can be very short your name can be very long and uh usually we have like the name the full name let's say a phone number and address full address a proof of that SI of that size will be produced in around 40 to 50 seconds yeah all the proofs are produced generally under three minutes if that's something enormously gigantic and they going time out in five minutes uh we we're doing a lot on you know on

108. 1:00:00

     constantly trying to optimize that it's really big metric as well as you mentioned not a joke we have a table with the devices and speed of uh of proof producing um yeah a lot of discussions about you know Cloud computation something like that because technology is there but how to the the the greatest problem with that is how to make it safe completely secure if we're transferring information there and

109. 1:00:26

     transferring it from from from this like platform we don't ultimately control so it's very theoretical uh basically we are we are forced to improve significantly if we encounter any blockages so each time it becomes more and more incredible so right right now for instance we're working on uh uh like um ZK proofing the aggregated data the one I told you about from Amazon because you

110. 1:00:56

     can imagine the list of purchases for half a year or regular person it it like hundreds lines of text right interesting so I think I think even come more better together my mind here a little bit so then from this so what you're saying here is the reason why then you can do this on chain is because it looks like so I can have my smart contract actually make this call as well now not just the front end is that is

111. 1:01:27

     that right yeah so um I'm not sure how familiar but like so a near we just passed a proposal about something called yielded execution which allows you to actually essentially have like a web two experience because you can start a transaction and then wait for it to finish on the other side which normally in crypto that's very difficult because you have to use callbacks because right the blocks are keep going right they

112. 1:01:52

     don't stop they don't wait for anybody so you get you get kind of stuck here but this sounds like this is like a really nice match of what near is able to do at the protocol level to what you guys are trying to do here because that yielded execution fits right into hey let's wait let's go get what we need from reclaim and then come back and finish it it might be the case so for

113. 1:02:18

     for those big huge proofs right so a person just completes like actions required from him usually right now you're absolutely correct it's instantaneous so it's like we consider that user like gets the information then continues into the flow but with with those enormous proofs it won't be possible and to be honest it won't be needed because user don't have to see the final result the platform needs to get it and in this case on based on what you described it's indeed

114. 1:02:48

     a a pretty perfect match yeah that's really interesting I think uh yeah the the the yield can last up to I can't remember it's like thousands of blocks but it it works out to be like about four minutes um so that could even adapt for the largest proofs I think that's uh that certainly sounds true yeah yeah and how this uh this this yield resume came in is is uh related to chain signatures because with the uh MPC and uh chain signatures like main contract

115. 1:03:30

     basically uh the the contract was requesting a signature from like offchain NPC noes and the the NPC noes were obviously taking some time to produce that signature and to do the waiting it would have to repeatedly call itself um each call taking like a block uh so a lot of the time when you make a call to this uh NPC contract to to to sign uh a transaction you would just run out of gas because the signature wouldn't be uh provided quick enough but

116. 1:04:12

     yeah with this this new um yield resume coming in uh it looks like the gas cost will be caught down significantly maybe like this run building you know stuff to to tie it all together that's great a lot of great infrastructural solution a lot of unity among different chains so that that's great to see them not not competing for the first time in a really really long run everyone like

117. 1:04:42

     be sort of finding their own voice becoming unique in a s yeah I hope to see more of this this unification and and working together with like the chain abstraction narrative because at hackathons a lot of the time what we're doing is like we're putting out these uh I can't remember what we call them but uh like instructing people how they can build on our bounties with the other chains Bounty so we kind of like want to

118. 1:05:16

     work with these other protocols so they the teams can hit as many different bounties as they want and that's really easy with chain abstraction because if you want to build uh something on ethereum like most of these devs are solidity devs at hackathons well your your web 3 hackathons and you can just build something uh on evm and just have a a smart contract or a near account calling that on ethereum and we

119. 1:05:49

     we've obviously been working with uh like polygon on on uh ZK wasm as well so I love this this unification I'm perceiving that more of you know the from the standpoint of acquiring developers outside of the industry because that's sort of the biggest Locker we have there are only 32,000 devel active developers in the space right now and right we sort of have to fight you know for for their attention and after the Beer Market it's definitely the most uh you know seasoned veterans and they're probably well off

120. 1:06:21

     already in this space they they're not going to be bought with a you know a few thousand in an airdrop or or token so and instead of fighting like you know this this whole concept of collecting as many bounties as you can in a single hack is sort of unhealthy and uh it leads to a lot of abandoned wear and I believe when you know we will have this uh internal Unity it will allow us to

121. 1:06:45

     ort more and more people from the developers outside of the that's super important yeah I was going to say we're you know we're coming up on the hour but I wanted to kind of wrap a little bit with some of the stuff that you're probably experiencing so as you're working on the grow side of it what has that really been like to start to have some of those conversations and I got to imagine probably the same that we deal

122. 1:07:08

     with as developer relations at near is that it's not even like a selling it's like almost like an educational process is that what it feels like for you uh exactly yeah because you know the the um the price for developer Mercenaries is insane it's just incredible I couldn't even place it price price tag right like we're having a lot of those conversations about user activity which

123. 1:07:34

     being like hardly incentivized and the numbers are crazy even for regular users what you speak about you know experienced developers so it's definitely educational so you have to spark interest in in the people who already in so something unusual something new or something uh very useful for them it it's always like that it's about personal needs so when I was exploring you know how developer in we3 thinks it's a very like there are not a lot of Junior developers and a lot of

124. 1:08:05

     people are very very senior experienced veterans they don't pay a lot of attention to the medium noise or regular marketing it's a you know it's a well-known thing that it's hard even in web to uh developers are hard to persuade to buy with like marketing tricks in web three it's even even harder so so it's definitely about the um the usage possibilities and if if we're speaking about you know existing situation right now and we're definitely

125. 1:08:36

     looking into external World students middle like a junior middle developers of all kinds of you know programming languages so sure right now it's just so unaccessible you know where where where you start as a regular death it's as an accessible as you know for for a manager in in some cases mhm but we're coming with great you know infrastructure we having a lot of uh building a lot of backbones and I feel it going to be as easy as uh you know working with some

126. 1:09:08

     well-known let's say mobile SDK even if you never had a prior experience it's sort of going to be intuitive on how how you're going to move with it no other options unfortunately for sure is that something I mean just philosophically from your own experience I just reclaim but like just thinking about like is it one of those things where you start to feel like it has to be a chicken and egg thing where like you need some products to be able to point to people say look here's what's

127. 1:09:38

     possible but at the same time like you need some of to build those so is it do you feel pressure maybe even internally something that comes up internally of like do we need to actually start to build some of almost like sample products to Kickstart some of that because I know like that's happening a little been discussion in different blockchains of like how much does the chain itself need to actually build to

128. 1:10:02

     show hey here's what's possible I I think it's sort of a you know it's it's a must on a certain level so it should be accessible and some products should be built so you can see that our open like this uh self sech platform is a you know basically emanation of this thought of uh of making everything sort of stream line because when I'm when I'm trying to explain uh the TLs and like we don't need an API and you can gather any

129. 1:10:34

     sensitive data but absolutely securely and we don't see it how all of that works uh you know equally confusing both for web 3 and web two developers because it's just like sort of A disruption it's like a new way to do an old thing everyone is is is very uh informed about apis like zapier and like every developer knows that you can go there and and get something he needs uh pretty intuitive uh yeah it's it's sort of like a hard question I feel we we feel we all

130. 1:11:04

     are under pressured with that because it's easy to say hey it's industry right like what what I can do I'm just like building this small product some decentralized exchange and there are all those networks they should do all the effort but in reality it depends on on product if if you're building something make it accessible right right yeah no I it's I mean it's something that I think a lot about of just even not just for near but in general like the problem that I have when I talk to

131. 1:11:37

     devs at any level just even casually just been like hey look here's they ask what's going on in crypto it's not being able to always point to something that's tangible and then trying to also like relay like he just said like how do I get this message across of this different Paradigm because I'll tell you like this I I now that I get exactly what you guys are doing I'm like oh I need to build this into my product that I'm working on

132. 1:12:01

     but at first it's a little bit of hard part of like where I have experienced in web to I come from Big Enterprise background so I first think of like giant apis right that's the first thing comes to mind and then I think of like okay now I've been working web 3 for a few years and now I start thinking about a little bit more of like again like the Privacy stuff what can I actually pull how am I going to actually get it you know through whatever so now to see to get to the point where guys are which is

133. 1:12:26

     this really nice intersection that is solving kind of I guess both sides of the coin here like what what do you need to actually do um I got to imagine it just like that's going to be the Breakthrough for you guys right of like from just a marketing and sales standpoint of like can we get this message across yeah messaging is uh is a big topic internal topic as well we're slowly getting there I feel like every time my pitch becoming shorter and shorter so yeah yeah slowly working it challenge for everybody for sure for

134. 1:12:57

     sure yeah aw oh and any other questions before we let Roman go no no questions for me I think I'm just excited to try it out to be honest but I really like what you touched on Joe about uh whether when when sometimes it's difficult to onboard developers and and Empower them to build uh why don't we all just build the product ourselves yeah because we are too technical you know like people who de develop something they tend to think that like I just build it and people will understand

135. 1:13:35

     what it's about and they will understand how genus it it and they will just pick up from there but to be honest it's not like that no one cares if you if you you know you can't grab their attention so we're sort of seeing that I feel with a lot of web three products so if you'll take some wallets from all like previous generations like two generations ago they're very utilitarian they're very like simple not very beautiful a little

136. 1:14:00

     Cluny uxui is very questionable sometimes if you if you'll take like some wallets from you know the last beer market there was a few let's say zerion uh very cool stuff like web web part it's like all very fast and Designs a slick so uh yeah it's uh it's a different side of the coin when we speak about the developer acquisition it's about customer acquisition so that's where it started I I feel for the industry yeah yeah I mean I that's a

137. 1:14:30

     great point you run the risk of like there's too many big brains in the room and there's no one there to be like hey look you know reg Jo's need to be able to actually use this too you don't want to outsmart yourself good thing to do like it's my personal you know advice for all the developers who think who who want to you know double check them just you know message your mom message your like school friends those people who are not

138. 1:14:54

     in ask them hey can you like I was doing that experiment in rarel when we were optimizing the entry flow I asked like tell people to create a metamask account to download like I was just dropping them the landing page and was telling hey can you install the app and like make an account inside it I got the the benchmarks for timing I got all the red flags in terms of uxui what was

139. 1:15:17

     difficult what was confusing and it's it's very straightforward so you will have a lot of external feedback if you just share stuff with people and in web 3 everyone is so open and you know it's always so easy to find someone to discuss even very very complex topic which is a you know a blessing for for the industry for sure no definitely definitely well I really appreciate you

140. 1:15:41

     taking this time this is a I learned a lot this is really exciting to see uh it's really cool to that I think from so this from devhub standpoint you know something that uh we helped put some funding towards uh you guys being able to actually come and build here uh on near and really looking forward to seeing the continued updates because uh there's a lot of power in this and uh I I hope that people start to really

141. 1:16:06

     recognize what's what they're capable of yeah uh yeah we're hoping to you know give that back to back to the community to the Builder so that's that's why I'm here uh please join uh the reclaim telegram chat to discuss you know your ideas or any blockers and we also have grants for you know near near based applications Creator grants up to 10K for with different Milestones so feel free to participate thanks that's awesome I might need to take a look at

142. 1:16:36

     that very cool very cool well Roman thank you again and yeah look forward to having you on later this year maybe we can uh do a followup uh absolutely yeah would be a pleasure see you thank you everyone thank you well uh what do you think going I think that was pretty pretty interesting to to learn about CU it was not totally what I expected it was actually probably better than I expected yeah I think it was great great because like I said we've we've been looking at uh building

143. 1:17:08

     with reclaim so I've sort of been using this uh live somewhat selfishly uh so I could I could learn about it uh for my own benefit as well so it's been very productive for me I did a podcast for almost two years for that reason right so you can learn about everything that's going on right you have the guests you get to ask the questions you want that's the best no it's exciting I this is the

144. 1:17:34

     stuff that uh it's a nice success story I think too of like look you can come and do stuff you know there is funding on near available uh you can leverage it and they now have a product that anybody could use and uh it's there's a lot lot of good stuff hopefully coming from that I think his is interesting that that Dev Hub gave them a grant and now they're also giving out their own grants for for people who could build on there as well um and you you see a lot of um there's a

145. 1:18:07

     lot of products uh that that sort of give back like I know mint base in the past have have done a lot of Grants and uh um metap pool as well there's there's a lot of examples so I think uh like Roman was saying uh at the end with web three like anyone's open to talk and a lot of the time people loving to to give back really yeah for sure yeah I the the pay forward nature of it is is exciting to see and again like they they certainly have an uphill battle but I mean it's

146. 1:18:46

     going to be one it's good one to watch because there's so many benefits like you know from what you're trying to build to even what I'm trying to build the side with Shard dog like it just all all comes together and so I think it's hopefully going to be useful for a lot of people uh next uh so we we do have another exciting episode next week and uh next week we're bringing on the infrastructure committee from near and that one is going to be really

147. 1:19:19

     interesting because I don't think people realize again how some of this infrastructure in web 3 is really being managed not just on near but I think a lot of different uh blockchains are doing something kind of similar but uh on near we're really trying to decentralize as best as possible uh what are your thoughts around the infrastructure committee and how that's being structured I think it's I think it's um an interesting one there's a lot of uh

148. 1:19:50

     committees being stood up more recently um to access f fing for specific vertical and I quite like how it's been structured like if you look at who's on the infrastructure committee you have some giga brains uh on there so so whoever's joining us next week uh I'm I'm sure they're going to shed a lot of insight of of How It's all working yeah I mean it's it should be it should be really good episode uh anyone's interested in just you know again how this all goes together it's

149. 1:20:27

     guaranteed to be some deep diving into some just not even just the technicalities of how the blockchain works but just like the the fundamentals of how do you actually get some of the stuff deployed how do you get this stuff built who's doing the work around all of this uh when in web 2 it's easy to just not even think about it because it's these big corporations a lot of the time they're just doing all this work in web 3 it's literally sometimes like a person

150. 1:20:56

     over the weekend you one or two people trying to put stuff together to get infrastructure stood up for certain things and uh there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on it's growing rapidly especially here on near with the amount of transactions and users uh each day uh it's should be a good episode uh I do want to end with a couple notes uh if you haven't subscribed to our newsletter please do so uh every week we release devhub uh all the news you could possibly need uh

151. 1:21:28

     as a developer in this ecosystem from what's happening with tooling to different committees upcoming uh events things like that uh we have our Bounty booster I've talked about a hundred times on these episodes uh there's a link down below uh check out the Bounty booster if you're going to a hackathon and you're integrating near uh you can actually double your prize up to $5,000 so it's it's worth checking out and as always uh make sure you sub subcribing to all our socials we're on

152. 1:21:56

     Twitter we're on Tik Tok we're on YouTube Instagram all the things you can get episodes uh everywhere uh and we're GNA keep pushing with that uh want to end us on anything Owen thought this was a great episode just another Banger to be honest it's it's uh they're all the same they're all great from the ones I've been on and I'm looking forward to uh part participating and and and helping you run the show yeah no it's exciting

153. 1:22:29

     I'm excited to have another person to bounce some of the stuff off with so it h doesn't have to just be me all the time which is great so I appreciate uh you and your time and we appreciate reclaim coming on and we will see everyone next week same time as always on on Thursday at 5:00 pm UTC and we'll we have the infrastructure committee next time till then see every real later

154. 1:22:52

     goodbye