Zcash x NEAR Intents Hackathon

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   want you want want want want

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   welcome welcome everyone for this new special edition of De of life this time we'll talk with the de of seash and de hob about the seash and near intense hackaton and we get this special edition for you the hackers that people are building for for that ha just bring your questions showcase your ideas in the comment section and we get with us today please welcome paku from zcash hello everyone nice to be

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   here and with us is G from near De Hub hi everyone Hi everyone thank you so much for having me thank you thank you for coming we get a a an exciting update that the new deadline for the hackaton will be this Sunday at midnight so you got one more weekend to hack so it's 48 Hours full of coding and that's the goal of this session when you can you know like if you're having if you're finding

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   a blocker uh something is not working with your project or you just want to you know like share your ideas and and check in like if it's in June with the with the tracks just came and talk with us in the comments uh so a quick review here uh I would like uh PCO if you want with us review the tracks and add some comments sorry can you hear me okay yeah just second everything is okay okay so uh can we check the tracks for a

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   moment uh so the the First theme that we are covering is AI agents for cach it's building an AI power trading bot uh that store manage and transact Z across the blockchain uh the last session we were talking about uh zcash and and S uh if if you don't mind to make a quick uh review again uh about SE for the people who are joining last minute to this second yeah sure um so um like uh 60

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   seconds of cach uh crash course is a c cash is a bit Bitcoin Fork uh from Bitcoin core um in 2015 uh which was added a zero knowledge uh uh proofs to bring privacy to the Bitcoin protocol um and long story Shard um the technology was awesome but very very new at that time so C became its owned uh project and there have been many updates to the ckash protocol um until today and but because of being a

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   an originated as a Bitcoin Fork tcash has two uh kinds of transactions basically one uh kind of transactions is the C transparent um a part of a protocol which is basically um Bitcoin transactions and utxo model um that that you already know of and then you have the possibility to actually go to the shielded side of a protocol which uh are the sapling and the orch pools which um uh actually

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   leverage the zero knowledge technology that um provides uh complete anonymity and privacy by um using zilge proofs to um prove that uh you are you own a certain amount of Ze and that you are legitimately spending it and that you're not double spending it uh and that allows you to transact in a decentralized way um and being unlinkable private and hiding uh the recipient the receiver and the amount of

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   the transaction um that uh will be in the blockchain but nobody else other than uh the person receiving the funds and the person sending the funds will know some of the details of the transaction uh and you won't see anything on the blockchain uh that's basically what cc is is favulous internet money internet cash awesome and regarding the the the track of AI agents for cach and and just before jumping into the the the shield of swabs and

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    and what would be the the the ideal uh agent that you would like to see running uh on zash level near intense yeah I think that what near brings to C cat is uh the ability of um combine Z with uh Defi and it would be awesome to see bots that can do um different trades and and identify opportunities to subz um and for example um give you I don't know it could be give you what the best

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    trade is for in different chains like using different assets um and also it could could be a good use of um also a good addition would be that these agents could also tell you um by the resulting transaction like how private it will be and also plus bonus points if you can leverage anything of the Shi the protocol we know that is not that simple it's not straightforward uh but even if you can like do a transparent z uh PC and then show a road map on how you

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    think you could actually include Shield The Shield protocol um it's uh it's a really good start and that's actually the the second track uh that we offer in this AC is the the private defi Shield of swap portf portfolio management and intend driven assets trading uh the the the third track is the cross chain interoperability so it's zcash enabl intent based transactions across Bitcoin Eid soul and another tokens and I would

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    love G if you can uh bring some light about what near intent is for for the people who are joining last minute in this haathon and by the way you you can see the link uh scrolling in your screen if you want to join the hackaton nice yes so near intense is basically just um a high level Declaration of what a a user wants to achieve right like think of uh of it as a way of telling the blockchain what you

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    want to do and not how you want to do it okay so instead of saying I want to swap this for this in this exact way way like by calling this a smart contract and executing this function here and this function there you just simply sign a message saying like I would like to swap token a for token B at the best price and what happens is that you sign this intent with your near account right and then you send it uh to a network of

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    solvers or or you publish it and there's like a network of solvers that are out there listening for intents and they can say for example ah you want to swap token a for token B it's fine if you provide token a I can provide this amount of token B right and what happens is that the you broadcast your intent to the solver Network the solver Network you know gives you an answer and that all of the settlements happens on the blockchain where you can prove that

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    something happened for example shopping tokens is one of the simplest things right because I as a user can prove to you that I have a transaction hash that shows that I deposit some token right like that I put it there and it's waiting for your Swap and you can prove as a solver or as a provider right of of liquidity that you put token B in the chain right and that the swap happened

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    and well this is basic this the most basic idea right like and ideally you could take this even further right because you could have solvers for absolute Ely everything including hey I want to give $100 in exchange of or I want to buy headphones and then a solber will say if you provide a 100 usdt I can provide you with headphones in real life then I can show you that I provided 100

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    usdt because there's a transaction hash but now how are you going to show me or you know like how how is the solver going to show me that they actually send something right so the the the solver could you know like put on chain hey okay perfect like here's the the number of the the tracking number of you know like I don't know like the Amazon package that I'm sending you right and therefore like you know like will I

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    receive the product or not and therefore like another important part of intents is like problem solving or like dispute solving disputes right like and how to solve them but this is beyond this hackathon like we can you know it's just like the previous part of uh maybe handling uh tokens it it's enough for now thank you and and there's a question for for both of you I would like to to

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    to hear what are your thoughts about real use cases to use uh intense for for shielded swaps why using zcash in in in these cases what are the the real use cases that you may find that is important to keep private on this transaction and to to to to keep the transaction safe and and and shield some of the of the information that is happening uh so what are your thoughts about it what would be the the use cases

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    that you may find for for this integration well I think that um it's um it's interesting for example um going to this kind of like solver that can't provide you with some um some Goods um for example how would you send your address your shipping address for those headphones um and then you could use uh shielded seea shielded memo to um use uh to actually send the that information um the cach shielded uh transactions have an encrypted memo of

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    uh 512 characters or bytes um that can contain either arbitrary um bytes or or or Unicode bites that can be read in form of text so um you could actually um encrypt your information so that the your shipping details are uh safe and also um you could reply you could provide a reply to address so that the uh uh solver can know where to send you the tracking number um for for example um it may be able to it might be

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    required to sign um some message for out of code but some dispute resolution uh that it can prove that it actually sent you the tracking number but then what it can do as well is to actually provide the real information uh only to you uh by using your your the shielder address you Pro you provided um in your memo um so that that could be one thing um for example um and then well you could for example if you had a instead of

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    um a a like a sophistical product you could say oh I need I I want a uh e or some eim or a phone or prepaid line with a I don't know two Zack of uh credit um and then the solver could actually say yeah okay I can do that and it can acquire the E for you and send you the details over the shielded memo um over there and things like that um where this messaging uh although it's not uh

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    capable of holding a lot of information it should be capable of of holding enough information for you to exchange like The crucial parts of the of your um intent uh with the solver very interesting let me ask you a a question T can you when you do a can you by using you know this shielded technology hide what is my original account like can I prove to you that I made a payment to you but you without you knowing like my Origin

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    account um yeah because like when when you make a payment to me I will receive your payment but um I um I won't know that that you are um the one I wouldn't know the what I you're the one sending it so what you can do is to send like send me your reply account um there there should be possible it should be possible and it is possible by the protocol but I think that we haven't implemented that it's to actually sign

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    your um you can provide a signature um that actually authentic is your memo but um I think that uh that will require that we Implement a few things that we haven't yet but we will Implement in the next probably in the in the next uh few months well because I was thinking that something that would be interesting for example is that you know with with the current idea that I just explain of like you know buying something online one of the issues that you know like one one interesting issue is that imagine that I

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    go and buy something with Amazon with you know my account Gil right and I just want to pay Amazon I don't necessarily want Amazon to know how much money I have in my account right like neither you know like the history of transactions of giln so you know like even before you know like of course like hashing my address which I will also want you know like maybe if you're maybe if you're talking with a specific you

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    know uh if I already pay you maybe can send me to your website to just put like my address but when I pay you it will be very nice that you don't know how much money I have in my wallet do you the of CC that it's there's nothing to do or to develop there because that's uh how shielded CC Works um what usually what usually happens when some entity wants to acrw that you pay that they have received

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    payment from a recipient from um from from a sender what they do is they generate a new shielded address for uh that is unique for that use case right they do know they know that there's no problem if you if you reuse uh a shielder address because given that the everything is encrypted and it's using zero knowledge proofs nothing of the shielder address is revealed publicly on the blockchain only the fee

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    of the transaction which ckash uses pseudo uniform fee um which uh all transactions that look alike will have the same fee so it's it's not statistically possible to identify uh Sheil transaction from the fee um because they all used similar fees for the same amount of inputs and outputs so you can buy whatever and you don't need to worry about like if this is your main accounts if it's your savings account then since the receiver can't

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    learn anything about your Holdings um you don't have to you know be jumping through hoops on hey I need to I guess jump through this exchange or try to hit this Mix net to um just send this $50 I need to buy this headphone so uh the headphone store doesn't know that uh I've been you know huddling for some time and I've been doing well right um so um yeah and this Shield trans and this shielded transactions uh do they follow

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    the same idea of like a Bitcoin transaction that I just signed with my account or like do they are they are they created in a different way they are um similarly created as as Bitcoin they they do follow a different kind of um um they are not not utxos but uh shielded notes uh which a shielded note is very similar to what um paper note is for um for cash um uh with the difference is that um you will have a different you

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    don't have fixed amounts for for those notes right um and what you can do what what it what you do when you send a transaction is that you you um send the you spend your note by creating a sealer arge proof that says hey I have this note that has not being spent ever in the blockchain and I'll commit this uh zero knowledge proof to this um commitment tree of the um Bitcoin of the

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    ckash blockchain um that doesn't happen in Bitcoin for example um because you since in Bitcoin everything is transparent so you don't need to prove anything like the blockchain can be verified by the naked eye uh and in this case since everything is shielded what you do is you rely on zero knowledge cryptography to prove that you haven't spent this notes and uh you you will give the zero not proof to

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    the receiver and to the uh full note that will be broadcasting your transaction that will actually verify that the it can verify the proof so it can verify that the proof is correct and sound and and true and then you will reveal a nullifier which is a specific uh value that you derive from with your private Keys uh to prove that uh once you reveal a new nullifier you said oh this nullifier is actually the thing

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    that marks my my U cach as spent and now the CC uh I don't know I don't owe that cach anymore I I I spend it and now you know the the new owner of of Z will have this new note that will have its own modifier and Etc and the chain goes forward so that's basically in an nutshell what happens and the difference is that you you can't uh go looking for shet noes in the blockchain because you won't be able to see them until the owners uh reveal their nullifiers and and spend them but

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    even though then you won't be able to see any details of the of that spending uh you will only see the transaction and uh that's it like the block header the transaction ID and the fee okay and the non-shield transactions they just ask they just act as uh Bitcoin transactions right like I will have my on signed right like the tricky part you can you can go from one protocol to the other like if you have chillet notes and

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    you provide me your transparent address for example like when you deposit into near intents what actually happens is that I'm deshielding my notes and those notes will now be re build their value right and they will belong as uh to the new CC uh transparent address that the near intents UI has given me to deposit but the near intents or near anyone out there will be able to know who I am or what is the address I'm sending the those shielded notes from um which gives

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    you this possibility of being shielded and then selectively choose um when to interact with the transparent uh blockchain and that's the same uh when you withdraw uh usually um for example when when I want to uh buy some Z and somebody let's say somebody pays me usdt and I want to buy Z with it so I go to the near inent and and say hey okay I'll deposit this u s and then I want to exchange it with uh with Zack so then I'll have to provide my withdraw

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    address and near currently supports transparent addresses only so I can just grab my wallet I can grab uh either of my um uh zingo wallet or my um Sashi wallet or Y wallet and just uh copy my transparent address and put in uh in the UI of uh near intense uh I will tap withdraw and it will sent me the transparent Z so um while it's like um zingo or Sashi they are shielded first so they'll uh they'll make you always Shield your coins before

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    you send them everywhere anywhere else so you will they will just pick up that transparent address and say okay let's Shield this font so it they will send the the transpan into one of your shielder addresses and those uh uh th those 50 formerly usct now converted into Ze will be shielded and jump off the transparent pool into the shielded pool and then you won't see where they are um in the block Explorer you will

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    see a transaction where um there were z z as input and there were some shielded outputs and some fee and that's it um and so I was wondering because for example we have this concept in near called chain abstraction right and and and we have a basically a an NPC that allows us to sign transactions for other protocols right so you have a your account I don't know if if you're familiarized with this but maybe there's people you know watching that it's not familiarized with this basically you have your near

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    account and you have the NPC Network that you can just you know think of it as a wallet and basically by making your account called a smart contract on chain you will get a signature for random bytes those random bites can particularly be a transaction in Bitcoin a transaction in ethereum right or in this case a transaction in cach for what you were saying like an transparent address right so I was wondering do you think that you will give up too much

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    privacy if for example I have myar account I use Myer account through near intents to get some ccache and withdraw that ccache into here's my near account here is my cach to deposit it in a cach account that my near account can control right like by signing transactions so now my your account can sign transactions for this cach account right uh now imagine that I want to you know

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    like Shield this the the the ccache that I have in my transparent account for that I get that I would have to you know like use my near account to sign a couple of messages but I will sign those kind those couple of messages through uh the MPC so everything you know everyone will be see like what kind of message I'm trying to sign so do you think that that will make it not transparent at all because you know like there I'm going to be giving away like hey I'm actually depositing in this shielded account and

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    therefore you know that's already you know my shielded account makes no sense anymore um to shield from uh the MPC I I will have to like look it up really into detail but there are a couple of things that you will have to do um but maybe like you could have a um if you if you have the same account d uh address derivation in in a shielder wallet that you control then you could um create for example the ckash

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    dev tool um on the CLI you could create a um ccache a partially created CC transaction which is um a format that is inspired on the partially created bitcoin transaction which actually is uh all the metadata necessary to uh create uh an uh non SCI or non-authorized transaction so then that transaction the only thing that it's lacking is the signature so then if you if you can sign that PC that t um

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    depending on what you repeal of it in the blockchain then that that's how um how much privacy you'll be giving up um in the process um but you can definitely um sign the transaction separately uh from the transaction created creation process and what do I bring this up is because to create a s knowledge proof you need a certain things that it will be pretty complicated to like you have to basically create a

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    way to for a near intent to know how to grab a vun key and sync the part of a blockchain to create the commitments and all the moon maath to actually create the the zero knowledge proof so that heavy loading process maybe you can do it with a CLI wallet or some wallet of some some kind uh that is C cash dedicated and then the signature process you could uh delegated to the near MPC but it will have to support um um

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    like red DSA signatures for example for Orchard um so it's obviously some heavy lifting probably not not something that you can do before Sunday um well maybe if you can I guess that you you win the hackathon maybe yeah we all offer job yes yes I don't know like people will will offer you some jobs um probably um actually sorry for the interruption and and these are great ideas but I would love to to to read what the people are building for this he and so for the

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    listeners who are hacking this opportunity please share your thoughts and your project on the comments and if you have any question and regarding these operations g h how do how do you foreseen that you you can leverage an agent uh for this transaction going Beyond this you know like interface uh Improvement or or avoiding the you know the user experience using an agent how to improve these uh decisions and these callings uh

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    using an agent well actually I I really like the ideas that that P already shared like saying hey how like I'm going to be doing something that I post that is private in cach how safe you know my agent think that this is and and what we were talking so far like what we have been talking so far is actually very relevant right like because it might be hard to maybe create all of these shielded transactions in in or or

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    you know like sh this concept of shielded accounts in pure near blockchain with you know pure smart contracts calls to the NPC but agents are actually arbitrary python code so uh you could upload a lot of this logic into libraries that maybe already exist or libraries that at least you know like can exist or libraries that you know in the worst case scenario just use external Services right like you just call some service that already does the heavy lifting for you and and therefore

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    you know like your agent could be the one that you know just says like okay I use near intents in order to be on board into cach now I use all the cach technology to do like a private payment now I can prove that I made that payment or through the you know like the shielded payment I just give the instructions on how something should behave or where should I get the answer and again arbitrary code I can do whatever I want I can just wait until I see that common answer and then come back to my user and say like hey guess

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    what I just bought something for you and you didn't have to reveal that you actually pay with Gil where you keep you know like a certain amount of money because this is something that we keep forgetting in in blockchain about like how being people think that sometimes you just want to hide things because you're doing something bad but uh sometimes you also don't want to be super transparent right like I I have my account with a

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    certain amount of money and I don't want people to know what money I have because that you know like my I be might become like a target of advertisement I might become you know I don't want you to know what I was doing like what are my interests on chain or like I I I I want some you know like when I buy with my debit card I don't expose my whole life to the shop that I have in the corner of my house right and that that just

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    doesn't happen when I use near or any other normal cryptocurrency because like there's a link and there's an account linked to that payment so you know the agent could use all of this technology to say hey I offboard it to a private place so you don't have to be exposed and expose your whole financial life yeah something that would be um like tapping into into something you said first I I love something that um Chris Nom from a core developer uh CC uh from

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    EC said that like there's no um like a free economic system without privacy because basically if you have a shop or you have a store and you have different kind of customers like it's probably that you um um have some price policies that are um private to you and are the base of your um uh business model and um it's Pro probable that you don't charge the same um amount to those same people like for example you have customers that are regular

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    customers and then you have a like a a quesy discount for them but not necessarily you don't want that to know um for new customers or or for your competitors to know um and if you like use a transparent blockchain and your competitors can figure out or can send a fake customer to get acquainted of your uh Bitcoin usage and if you're not like a super hacker hacker uh that you know

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    how to derive your accounts well or you or for some reason your Bitcoin wallet just Mis messages your uh addresses it can reveal of things and even though like you manage super well like with the correct Hardware you be will be able to or with the correct agent in this case you will be able to tell like what is the what are the payments related to this store um or to this address um so

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    um with CC allows you to run your business uh in a private way so that you can have uh your um you don't have to worry about like um managing uh address is very in a very complex way uh for every customer and you can just like hand your Shield address and uh for payments and nobody will will be able to figure out um uh what the amount is that you received or and Etc but something that would be really cool to see is for example something that CC unfortunately

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    lacks is um Merchant uh like Merchant tools so if you can use near intents to uh help uh Merchants um uh provide uh cach payments U like and even if it is transparen C cash it would be really useful uh for the seash community uh and the ecosystem that's a very sorry no no no no go ahead that's a very interesting point right because then you can actually use the advantages of near like for example link drops and and you know just

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    like handle the complex logic of you know uh adding Financial logic into an application on near right and all of the on boarding in near and all of the you know maybe offboarding if you want to you know send something to someone but then through intents you do it privately in SE cash right so then I'm just saying like ah yeah I'm I'm okay I'm paying you and just follow this link to pay and all of that you know like on the surface you

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    have near and on on the background you have like see cash to make it private yeah for example if you can make an intent that can take an arbitrary amount of usct on any chain and like automatically route it to Zack or the other way around um it would be uh really awesome because then uh if I'm a merchant and I want to I want to I don't know uh give you a payment uh like uh a payment method uh Merchants don't care

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    about the cryptonomics what they need to do um like Merchants are not hudders they they don't care about the different projects what they need to to do is to sell whatever they're selling and cover the cost costs and have their revenue so they don't need volatility to eat up their costs covering their cost or Nei eating up their revenue so crypto payments are convenient for hodlers but we want uh Merchants to have the

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    convenience of being able to offer the payment method and then if they want to profit and play with their crypto is up to them but we don't want the payment meth rails to actually have anything to do with that so it's not betraying sat's Vision to actually uh just let Merchants convert to some Fiat stable coin because what we want is the opposite we want to be able to spend our crypto and we want their Merchants to be in touch with crypto and get acquainted with and be

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    able to continue to run their businesses and not let vity uh make any damage to them and and make them withdraw from crypto payment rate so this would be really good next thing to have like some payment rail for Zach will be a total win actually this is one of the the craziest session of giving away ideas for hackaton thank you very much but but you're pointing to to very sophisticated

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    solutions that are needed on these use cases uh and so far there isn't like nobody's asking anything on the comment uh uh so first of all thank you very much for the ideas because are really really great uh and these are real use cases for for this technology and I would like to review with you guys what are the the proper and the best channels for the hackers uh who wants to you know like no pin you or ask for you know like

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    some help on this weekend uh we get some channels we get a a telegram group uh the channel of the cach uh TR group uh for for de Hub Collective sorry for hackbox Collective uh but also you get the cach Discord you're looking at the link on the screen uh G something that you may add where to to find some help uh fixing problems with with uh intents yeah so actually there is uh we

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    have documentation in the near site and very important we not only have documentation on like what near intents are we also have a whole tutorial about how to deposit into near intents how to use it to swap from one uh coin to another from one asset to another and also how to withdraw into any type of account uh so docs. nar.org chain abstraction intents that's you know like the the the the source of Truth for for everything about near intents and we are

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    around the the telegram channel so if you have any questions please do ask them and also uh you have uh link for dogs on zcash pay uh yes um in I think that the best thing is to check out um yeah the ckash read the Dos also Ze Hub which is like Ze hub. Wiki um which has a really good tutorial tutorials on everything cach like from Zero to Hero and um also the Discord channel the research and development channel is very good to reach developers um and uh and there are a lot

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    of like people not only like the core developers but the C cachers that will be able to help you out um probably there awesome well I guess that this will be a short session uh I guess the people are shy or they're just you know you just blow their minds with the idea and they are going to panic regarding their own project so um just last you know last minute um advice for the hackers regarding the they facing like 80 48 hours plus uh uh

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    until the deadline uh paku Shar great ideas uh last time we talk for the hackers G what would be your advice for for the people who have been hacking H to actually deliver and and please uh submit your project uh on the takee quite easy to to do the submission so just uh don't fail in the submission even if you achieve just a part of your main idea go for it and submit uh G what be your your your advice for for hackers my main advice will be the

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    the same that I give for every hackathon which is do remember that this is a hackathon and the people evaluating it remembers that it's a hackathon so I often see people think that if they don't have like a production grade you know project that is like literally as good as near intense which took like 10 senior Vel oper six months you know like if I cannot do that in 48 hours then I'm useless and that's not the case we are

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    always like looking at the code knowing that you had to write it in 48 hours or in like two weeks or in a month or it doesn't we know that it's a hackathon and and therefore if you build something we are we can forgive small quirks we can forgive you know like the button that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't work or like the service that is on and off because you use some free provider and it takes 50 seconds to to

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    take it up sometimes I even go and just read the code and and say like will this work because I didn't manage to make it work but like because of some dependency but will this work yes is the idea good yes can I see that you know if I a senior developer that is knowledgeable take you and help you for like two weeks three weeks a month we can make this into like a prototype or like you know

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    MVP so then for me it's a good project so remember it doesn't have to be production ready it doesn't have to compete you know with the the best wallet of C cash or like the best project in year it just have to be a good idea and showcase that with time and and and appropriate help that could become a real project because that's most of the time what we were searching for like right not not necessarily like a project that we would just say like hey great now go on your own we're

79. 45:52

    searching for someone that for for a team that we can say perfect now you have my attention and moreover you have resources and my help so so so that's the point like don't overthink it it's much better like you know everyone would overthink it and don't send and not send it therefore if you just send it you already have a huge advantage over the rest so please submit your project awesome any something that you will add on top paku no no I think that's that's a perfect uh closing

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    argument for this uh live stream okay again thank you so much guys and uh if the people the people who are watching this live uh go and watch it again uh you got great ideas for for your project and this hackaton and I get that's it happy hacking and remember the submission deadline this Sunday at midnight UTC happy huging everyone thank you byebye