{"id":"w8Gf9PzAWIU","title":"Defragmenting Web3 Interop Labyrinth","description":"This session provides a comprehensive overview of the various methodologies and approaches employed in chain abstraction. Attendees will gain insights into the strengths, weaknesses, and trade-offs of each methodology, enabling them to make informed decisions when selecting the most appropriate approach for their specific use cases. \n\nModerator: Firat Sertgoz, Nuffle Labs\n\nPanel:\nAnkit Chiplunkar, One Balance\nKendall Cole, Proximity \nEthan Francis, Particle Network\nJoseph Schnetzler, Mystic Labs\n\nLearn how to simplify user experiences and interoperability in blockchain, making it easier for developers and users to interact seamlessly across multiple chains. Discover the challenges and innovative solutions shaping the future of decentralized applications.\n\nTakeaways:\n• Universal Accounts: Particle Network is simplifying user interactions across blockchains by providing a single account that works on multiple chains, eliminating the need for manual bridging.\n• Coordination and Standards: Effective chain abstraction requires better coordination among projects and establishing common standards to ensure seamless user experiences.\n• User Experience Spectrum: The level of abstraction needed varies by user. Advanced users may prefer more control, while general users benefit from higher abstraction levels.\n• Trust Assumptions: Chain abstraction often shifts trust from users to applications, highlighting the need for robust, verifiable systems to maintain security and reliability.\n• Future of Decentralized Apps: Chain abstraction enables applications to operate across multiple blockchains, fostering a more competitive and user-friendly marketplace.\n\n00:00 - 02:00 Introduction and Participant Backgrounds\n02:00 - 08:00 Biggest Blockers and Solutions in Chain Abstraction\n08:00 - 13:00 Trade-offs in Chain Abstracted Experiences\n13:00 - 19:00 Trust Assumptions and Minimization in Chain Abstraction\n19:00 - 24:00 Exciting Developments in Chain Abstraction Projects\n24:00 - 30:00 How Developers Can Leverage Chain Abstraction Tools\n30:00 - End Closing Remarks and Future Outlook\n\nChain Abstraction Day at EthCC 2024 in Brussels on July 10th, bringing together NEAR and Agoric for our third installment in the year-long series.\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nNEAR AI: https://near.ai/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near \nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\n#NEAR #nearprotocol #nearairport","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-07-14T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/w8Gf9PzAWIU/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"hello everyone hello so this is my first time I'm seeing by the way just to just to set the scene um but happy to happy to have this talk with you guys um in chain abstraction day I would like to start with a short intro of how what what everyone's working on and how it relates to chain abstraction Maybe we can start with you sure yeah so my name is Ethan although I go by the Alias Tabasco um I lead develop relations at particle Network and kind of the tldr of what we're doing at particle is that um we are building a technology called Universal accounts which essentially allows users to have one balance and one account that they can use across all blockchains so for example you can deposit uscc from polygon ethereum base and arbitrum and use it all as one single kind of asset that is universally applicable everywhere so this means that users no longer really have to bridge or manually mine the processes of interacting with multiple chains and so they have one account that's applicable um basically across the entire ecosystem so we're trying to solve chain abstraction at the user experience or more specifically the account level hey everyone my name is testing we good cool hey everyone my name is Kendall I'm a lead a company called proximity uh we uh work on go to market for a lot of the near ecosystem chain abstraction products which IL just did a great job covering so I won't dive too deep into them but just as a quick quick recap chain signatures is one of them uh which is the ability to sign transactions for any chain from a near counter smart contract uh product built on top of that it's called the multi-chain gas re layer which lets you pay for gas fees on any chain using assets on near like usdc near and others um and fast off which is a way basically like an embedded wallet solution that can work for any chain hello uh hi I'm monit I work at Frontier and one balance uh 6 months ago we wrote something called called cake framework um and then recently we are working on unbalance which is a new type of account model which basically uh gives users instantaneous cross chain experience and that's what that's what we're working on testing perfect hello um my name is Joe uh I'm a co-founder of Mystic labs and we're building Calypso which is oneclick actions the whole idea is to abstract away bridging everything in between and allow users to say I have eth I want to stay here and one click no matter where cool thanks a lot guys um what I would like to start with is because I feel like we're approaching the same problem from different sides and from your point of view if you would have to choose one thing that is the biggest Blocker of enabling chain abstraction and um interoperability what would be that and how you guys are approaching that problem we can just go from the from that side um I think the the biggest problem currently is it depends on I guess the focus of your your project but more specifically with with clipo in our use case uh it's there's a lot of like normality with bad ux in the space currently I guess um and there's a lot of people trying to solve that problem and there's very unique and like nuanced ways to do that that so you either have to focus very nich on one specific Avenue there or you have to you have to try to take it all on on at once and it's a very long and brutal process to do that uh so it's I think that the biggest challenge has been everybody finding their Niche working on it and then collaborating together because that was just a long process but now I think we're getting there to a point where everybody is finding their Avenue and everybody can collaborate to kind of build this this wholeistic experience for everybody um yeah if you if you think about chain abstraction it's more about users don't see chains anymore and so every every individual or every company at every lay of the stack has do do has to change something in how they behave how they operate today because chains are very Central to how all the infrastructure is build how the ux is buil how things are settled and so I think like all all the technology is already available at everyone's hands what is required is basically changing the mindset and and holding hands together and actually making the change to give the user that uh that seamless experience and so coordination I think is like is like a bigger problem and coming up to one simple set of Standards where people can agree on and just on board and and uh both users developers everyone yeah I I would say for for us uh one of the things we've found very challenging with chain attraction is that blockchains are actually quite different there's a lot of virtual machines they even though there's a lot of similarities there's a lot of big differences between them and how they work uh and a lot of the kind of abstracting solutions require a lot of specific work for each individual chain uh which makes it pretty difficult to kind of have a comprehensive solution so uh I think what's what we're excited about with our solution is that it's really more about supporting signing schemes rather than necessarily supporting a specific blockchain uh which I think makes the system quite a bit more flexible and and means that teams who are kind of leveraging chain signatures can uh in theory settle transactions on any chain uh by mostly leveraging a lot of the existing tool a uh for each as individual chains yeah first of all I think it's a good question um and I have a few answers to it but I'll focus on one I think first of all I think what Ankit said is is exactly one of the biggest issues with chain of structure at the moment is that there needs to be better coordination among chain of structure projects and technologies that are kind of built within the chain of instruction stock I think the cake framework is a great way to understand um what tech techologies are kind of within the composition of chain obstruction and the chain obstruction stack and then even within like projects that are building chain obstruction that are explicitly creating chain obstruction Solutions um I see this is also a need for better coordination there needs to be some degree of set standards or even just kind of General agreement on uh shared goals um that allow chain of instuction to be more collective in terms of you know reducing uh the whole meme that you know we're just kind of creating another standard to compete with the existing 15 standards this is actually I think a real problem that we're currently approaching within chain abstraction um so I think it's important to to avoid this and to to be a little bit more collaborative in that sense I think I'll cheat a little bit I think the second problem is that some uh the industry as a whole to some degree um there's a little bit of push back on chain obstruction um I think there's been some some tweets and stuff recently where people have said that uh they actually want to see and they want to interact with every individual chain they don't want this to be abstracted from them which makes sense that this is this is a foreign idea for a lot of people and it's a evolution in how we look at user experience and how we look at how us interact with application day to-day so there I I do expect and I think we're already seeing some degree of um ideological push back on the idea of chain of struction has be implemented um but I think as we actually start to materialize this idea and real solutions start to to be present I think people will hopefully realize that this is a a necessary solution but I think it's going to be some degree of um mind share and some hurdle that we're going to face especially going into the next six months but both can be true at the same time right like you can have one set of users who don't care about the chains and one set of users who really uh care about them instruction is a spectrum which I think it's a good way to say I think those are very good points um which is kind of my next question is related to that because right now what you said is some part or what we were talking about is some some people will like to be more chain abstracted um side of things and some are more invol want to be more involved when you're building chain abstracted experiences what are the trade-offs that you're taking compared to the current status quo of how people interact with chain maybe we can talk about that a little bit starting from here anybody I think the currently the tradeoff is if you're more as they were talking about if you're a more advanced user certain users might not really want the the experience that chain abstraction brings especially because it kind of creates assumptions for the user in many cases so if you're a user that is very specific on what you want to do you know exactly what you want to do how you want to get there I think chain abstraction probably wouldn't be a great product be whatever if the product's using chain abstraction for example our product wouldn't be a great use case for you you're not really a Target user in that sense I think the the target user would be more somebody that is okay with giving up certain decisions when it comes to I want to do this I have this make it happen um so I think that the trade-off comes down to your your user like is the user more advanced what comes with that more advanced user um and then how does how do you build the processes around that um and then you can even get into like more specifics where you're building around chain abstraction and I want to build for a core user base that maybe is I'm making those decisions and those assumptions for but I want to actually build out the product so I have more advanced user base and I can let them choose those specific decisions um and I think that's what a lot of the core Technologies like um like chain signatures aor orchestration I think are doing um and I think that helps us get there so I think that are like five core tradeoffs that you need to come around some agreement on and so like the one is on the ux layer which is as we already discussed ux or users have user preferences are Spectrum some users use a hardware wallet and they spec they actually read each and every uh bite code before signing something and then there are some users who use telegram Bots and but telegram Bots are still import important because they they generate like 30% of the order flow now and so user user preferences are a spectrum across like how much user experience they want versus how much security they want the second is uh what you are trying to transfer across chains like are you trying to transfer information so are you trying to vote on a governance thing or are you trying to transfer values are you trying to transfer tokens are you doing trying to do swaps and there are some decisions that you need to do over there as well uh there there tradeoffs with respect to speed users would sometimes users just want want to do things very very quickly and so they're very happy to pay a high amount of price for that versus sometimes us are willing to wait and there because things are multi-chain and things are asynchronous there's also like uh reliability or transaction execution guarantee issues like sometimes things might just fail because the state has just uh moved due to due to the latency issues and so these are I think the five tradeoffs and that's what also we wrote in the cake framework and depending on what type of user you want to make a product for you can have different you can pick and choose different Lego blocks in these different layers of the cake and and build a particular solution for them okay so um yeah I agree with an I think that um um like you know abstraction as as was said um you know a few times in the past few minutes is ultimately a spectrum that is dependent upon user decision and I mean the way that I typically look at it is typically like applications and how they intend Their audience to interact with their application some applications might expect a more advanced audience that uh requires less levels of abstraction less layers of abstraction to where it's more um direct with whatever they're doing they see the chains that they're using they see the routes that they're taking Etc and so they can more accurately assess risk and kind of there's less trust assumptions that you don't have to trust less entities um whereas some applications like for example games or social fly Etc that are more consumer facing they might be more abstracted um so the degree of abstraction is greater than something that is assuming a a more technical audience um this is important this means that whenever you're looking at well how much abstraction should you have how much what are the assumptions the trust assumptions associated with this um the way that IC is it usually comes down to the application and so even in scenarios where you have the maximum level of abstraction where you you really remove all this from uses which is going to be I would guess a more common scenario especially when you get into this new era of kind of like consumer facing blockchain um I think this is where you have a lot of the trust that kind of now lays on applications and to some degrees is also solvers whenever you get into a 10 sric systems um which I repeat this all the time but I believe it was ever clear that said it that solvers are also economically incentivized to U make more secure decisions applications are to some degree by just the the nature of being a more free market are incentivized to make more secure decisions on the chains that they use and um choosing chains that are inherently more secure and robust and um handling users user funds in a way that's more responsible so I think when you look at trust assumptions and how much abstract you should have it ultimately comes down to the application the intended audience and um how these users are going to interact this application um but even those more severe scenarios where really it is ultimately a almost web three invisible experience um I still don't see this necessarily as much of a risk because these are the users that want the experience and you still have a large degree of incentives for better security yeah I think the to dive even deeper into that point I think it's it's very accurate that they uh the trust assumptions it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out I think to paint like a very explicit point on this if a user just wants to trade from one asset to another how like basically whatever route is taken is not particularly relevant to them as long as they end up with the asset they desire to have at a price that is with you within their slippage tolerance they're okay with that where it gets more complicated is something like using uh a lending protocol where you're actually going to be locking up funds for an extended period of time because then you're actually ultimately trusting wherever those funds end up and then for like some some kind of unknown or or unspecified potentially duration so I think it's be really interesting to see how a lot of these products and applications and you know everybody in the whole stat kind of navigates that specific set of trade-offs when it comes to like more long duration trusted counterparty esque type of situation even if the counterparty is ultimately a smart contract I those are very good qu points what I would like to also take a look at from a trade-off standpoint is RV still having a trust system or are we moving the trust assumptions to different places while we're creating chain abstracted experiences what are your thoughts on this do we still on the path of making everything trustless or are we trying to from moving the trust assumption from Bridges to solvers are we moving to problem or are we actually solving the problem what are your thoughts on this I I think it's a combination of both um to be really honest uh but I think that to to to get to a spot where you can go I want Z this I have a make make it happen you you inherently have to make trust trust assumptions and I think over time we might get to a spot where a lot of the abstraction is built around actually making it 100% trustless but by a degree when you're going to an application and you're using it you're already implying trust in that application in one way or another um so I think that depends on how you look and what your definition of trustless is but I think we're just like I mean the space in general the ecosystem as a whole over the last decade I think we get to a spot over three five 10 years where it becomes more and more trustless it might not be there from the gecko um but I do think it's a combination of both to be honest yeah I think like the trust assumptions would generally increase because you're abstracting details away from the user but the core uh thing that you're trying to solve is that users don't need to make those decisions anymore and so users are trusting the daps and so instead of the users deciding what chain I need to move my assets on uh the users are just trusting the daps that the daps are deploying on the correct chains and the daps decide where the assets are deployed and so that is one trust assumption that might have changed because we have abstracted some of the det details uh but I would argue that users still trust daps today anyways like if you go to unop you trust that the unop smart contract has a has been audited properly if you go to their website you uh you trust that their website has does not has not been hacked in the last 10 minutes or whatever and so there is there is some amount of trust that already users do when they use dabs uh you're just increasing the the amount of trust service yeah I think it's it seems like there's some consensus that you are in fact it at least Shifting the trust assumptions and probably increasing them I think the really important thing is like yes ultimately you're probably going to be increasing some trust assumptions here what's critical though and kind of is critical for the whole Space is that even with these increased trust assumptions like these applications should be pretty damn verifiable like as verifiable as possible at every level that they possibly can um and there should be Alternatives right I think it would be unfortunate if we ended up in a scenario where it was like everything was purely solver based and offchain and you didn't have like amm or things like purely onchain liquidity anymore because then you don't even have like that check and balance of like alternative systems or would take some time to kind of rebuild them so I think that's that's kind of like a future that is a little bit uh scary uh but I think the beauty of crypto is if you have like different tradeoffs right for different users then everybody can kind of like make the sort of assumptions that they're comfortable with and then hopefully we maintain a culture of uh every like verify everything so even if you know right now you're basically trusting experts other than you for the most part to audit smart contract of the protocols you use uh or trusting that that process happened even if it's not very explicit um and I think it's it's important that like that mindset and that kind of culture is maintained even if we shift towards like kind of slightly more trusted systems for for a lot of use cases yeah I think you know this is this is all true I think really in terms of an ecosystem wide goal maybe a trustless future is not super practical especially with the type of user experience we're trying to achieve I think rather trust minimized is probably a more accurate goal to strive towards um because these trust assumptions are unavoidable whenever you're abstracting things away whenever you're removing information from the user whenever you're uh doing things for them then inherently there's some degree of of trust um but I think importantly is that there's things done to minimize this trust and make it more uh like less risky for the user but I think at the same time like something that is a little bit less talked about with chain abstraction is that chain abstraction in terms of how it affects the market um means that applications are actually competing on a much larger basis now so applications aren't competing within Silo eems they aren't competing within for example polygon or I'm not competing with like another Dex on polygon I'm competing with the entire web through industry because users are universalized and at the same time this means that because applications have a much higher degree of competition with one another their incentives to create more secure and and ultimately user focused experiences are also increased and so this is one important part of chain of struction I think is is goes beyond just user experience is that applications and really the whole competitive market Market moves towards rewarding more secure experiences and more secure applications and things that make better decisions more responsible decisions U so I mentioned this a moment ago but I think that this is one of the most important considerations when it comes to to the risk and the trust attached to it because if we get to an ecosystem where you have these leading applications I think these applications will be leading and you're going to have the the applications that will emerge because they make more responsible decisions and this is going to be a big factor of who wins and kind of the um the application race cool I think uh um yeah I agree with with what you guys are saying basically trust assumption is always there we're trying to make everything trust minim minimized um from our inoperability standpoint because that's what we also want to talk about um what I would like to get to is um in your own project context what are you guys working on specifically that excites you a lot right now um that would help the chain abstraction developers um navigate this inoperability labant and all of this um hard that comes with it um I think what was spoken about before probably um where there's a lot of there's a lot of blockchains there's a lot of protocols there's a lot of everything and that comes with a lot of fragmentation and I'm I think as a builder coming into space just in general let alone trying to build something with chain abstraction um you can get a lot really overwhelmed with the large amount of standards across various blockchains um so I think it's pretty exciting to see now we're getting to a spot where everybody sees that problem they're working on it and as a developer new developers come into into the ecosystem even just Web Two developers that might just be toying with web 3 I think that I'm very excited to see an easier entrance for those developers and I think that has been a big problem that I've seen around me a lot and I think it's being solved pretty rapidly um just in the last six months I would even say there's been a drastic change in that direction and specifically from your project standpoint we yeah we've ran into that from our project standpoint so for example we do one click actions from let's say evm into Cosmos we're very Cosmos heavy heavy heavily oriented so let's say you have ethereum um Ethan ethereum and you want to stake in the cosmos Hub you could doing that now it takes about six or seven steps we're trying to abstract that away entirely so it's one click one signature that in goes across three different ecosystems it goes across four different blockchains there all four have different standards it's just a mess so as a developer coming into this trying to build those step by step becomes very challenging to have because it's a you're just learning 24/7 which I mean in all regards as what a developer essentially is doing every single day and it's just it's just a big hurdle to overcome when you're just trying to build a product right um so you get distracted a lot we ran into this I see it around me often and I think that I'm very excited to see that the space is now moving towards towards a place where they're I mean I'll use it again but abstracting the way that um with with chain signatures agoric orchestration and stuff along those lines yeah I uh at one balance what we are trying to provide is this like instantaneous experience to the user so the user might use any Upstream uh wallet wallet service or order flow or dab and they as soon as they click the button they get the execution on the target chain and then they don't have to wait for finality for anything and uh uh it's also like agnostic of any type of coordination layer any type of solver layer any type of execution layer underneath it so it's just like uh thin middle layer of account new account that we proposing that just reduces the users time to wait for execution and lets more sophisticated parties like the solvers who get paid to do these uh who get paid to find these routes and who get paid to hold liquidity and who get paid to do execution do the job for the user and wait for eventual uh settlement but the for the user is just one click single instantaneous experience uh yeah I liked I liked what Ethan said earlier about um turning crypto into kind of this like like from a bunch of marketplaces where kind of specific products on single chains to kind of like creating just a unified sort of marketplace of all these products um and I think like yeah what we've been excited about with with what we're working on is that we um can make it a bit more straightforward for I think developers to build products that can just serve multiple chains without making a whole lot of assumptions about how those chains work or even what chains even exist uh and I'm hopeful that uh you know we we see an increasing number of categories of products like oracles or Bridges uh that they just really want to serve anyone who's willing to consume basically the product that they're putting out there regardless of chain like they're not particularly like Max about any chain and I think uh we're we're excited to like push push on that design space and like try to you know really see this kind of new category of application flourish and and I think yeah just create a more competitive Marketplace for for for users which ultimately improve the ux yeah I think this is kind of like the idea of the chain agnostic application so applications that exceed the confines of any specific chain um at particle we do a little bit more of a user facing technology so applications will integrate our SDK that essentially allows users to onboard in this application using what we call Universal account um that basically allows it's a smart account that they can use to then interact with this chain with balances if they hold in any any other chain so it's basically a way to access a universal pool of users um and this is like what we consider actually is is account level chain abstraction so this means that we specifically Target um chain abstraction from the account standpoint so it it actually doesn't agnos toy applications um but rather below us below particle in the stack you have application Level chain abstraction um this is where applications really are gasified because in the future developers are going to be able to build applications that not only can take users and onboard users from any blockchain and have them use the application but actually the application itself is not bound to any specific blockchain and the application itself interacts does things across four 5 10 12 different blockchains so this is like what I think will be a really exciting fature for developers and for applications overall is going to be this kind of like you know Universal universalization on both sides where users can onboard ther chain these applications themselves can interact and compose across any blockchain in the ecosystem there's a lot of other Solutions building towards us like socket aor Etc that are allowing developers to really orchestrate and compose across chain so I think that this is also really part exciting part of chain abstraction that we see like the full stack being a colle of like account level Solutions even including things like chain signatures um and then application Level Solutions which allow the true agnos ification of applications and this is really what I think is most exciting for developers very cool um so we're approaching to the last part of our um talk and what I would like to hear from all of you guys is what do you guys want the incoming developers to utilize do while while utilizing your platform or while your products build on on top of it and how they you see them using your your products going forward to create this chain abstracted World um for us specifically it I would would love to see developers using the abstraction tools we've built along the way to build out our product um and just kind of build out new use cases around it specifically when it comes to outside of the ecosystems that we're currently targeting which is uh mainly just Ro evm Cosmos uh near um Etc uh I think with as we've brought up before um that that brings competition which just brings better products um so I think that's that that's what would be great to see yeah like um using using what we building developers can tap into one balance of users global State across all the chains and then give the users instantaneous cross chain experience where the users don't even need to see the chains anymore and as soon as they click a button they they get the execution they want yeah I think like kind of every the point everyone's sort of making about like thinking about your application different ways you can today in like two important ways one is the fact that you can actually interact with multiple blockchains in a single product that's something that's like not really that explored today and I was talking earlier about an example of this like you know combining Bitcoin and eum uh and like borrowing us to deposit into like hyper liquid and take out a short position right and like tokenizing that so I think that's a really cool use case and the other is um is yeah kind of like building your application in a way that you could serve other developers or other applications on any chain so like a great example this is just an oracle which like bring your verified price data onto one chain you kind of sign that payload uh like have that payload verified in some way and then anyone from any other chain can take that payload like kind of trust us relay it and then and then use that information and I mean that's just one very basic example I think there's a whole kind of category around thatp of way of building an application yeah with particle Network um the way the developers will use it will be relatively straightforward it's a an SDK that you basically plug in as like a typical it works very similarly to most account obstruction cks where it sort of like exists has a plugin on top of like existing wallets like metamask and Ravi and stuff like that um and so it'll allow users to basically leverage a smart account that is universalized so it like I mentioned kind of has one balance one state that you can use um across any application in any chain so applications will integrate this SDK and then allow users to leverage a universal account within this application um we also have uh existing social login and account obstruction sdks that are uh installed across 900 applications within the ecem approximately um so all these applications will actually upgrade automatically to use Universal accounts upon launch um and then other developers will be able to integrate it in essentially 20 lines of code and then instantly unlock kind of this user base um that can be from any other ecosystem so this is how it's used with with particle Network very simple SDK plugs into ether web3js stff like that in essentially 15 20 lines of code very cool um very cool products I'm I'm also develop on myself and I would love to look into and use all the products that we're were talking about and I think that's that's pretty much it for for our panel it was it was a great talking to you guys and let's get a round of applause thank you thank you","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:45:48.559Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":8,"text":"hello everyone hello so this is my first time I'm seeing by the way just to just to set the scene um but happy to happy to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=8s"},{"start_seconds":17,"text":"have this talk with you guys um in chain abstraction day I would like to start with a short intro of how what what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=17s"},{"start_seconds":26,"text":"everyone's working on and how it relates to chain abstraction Maybe we can start with you sure yeah so my name is Ethan","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=26s"},{"start_seconds":33,"text":"although I go by the Alias Tabasco um I lead develop relations at particle Network and kind of the tldr of what we're doing at particle is that um we are building a technology called","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=33s"},{"start_seconds":42,"text":"Universal accounts which essentially allows users to have one balance and one account that they can use across all blockchains so for example you can deposit uscc from polygon ethereum base","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=42s"},{"start_seconds":51,"text":"and arbitrum and use it all as one single kind of asset that is universally applicable everywhere so this means that users no longer really have to bridge or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=51s"},{"start_seconds":58,"text":"manually mine the processes of interacting with multiple chains and so they have one account that's applicable um basically across the entire ecosystem so we're trying to solve chain abstraction at the user experience or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=58s"},{"start_seconds":67,"text":"more specifically the account level hey everyone my name","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=67s"},{"start_seconds":74,"text":"is testing we good cool hey everyone my name is Kendall I'm a lead a company called proximity uh we uh work on go to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=74s"},{"start_seconds":83,"text":"market for a lot of the near ecosystem chain abstraction products which IL just did a great job covering so I won't dive too deep into them but just as a quick quick recap chain signatures is one of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=83s"},{"start_seconds":91,"text":"them uh which is the ability to sign transactions for any chain from a near counter smart contract uh product built on top of that it's called the multi-chain gas re layer which lets you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=91s"},{"start_seconds":99,"text":"pay for gas fees on any chain using assets on near like usdc near and others um and fast off which is a way basically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=99s"},{"start_seconds":107,"text":"like an embedded wallet solution that can work for any chain hello uh hi I'm monit I work at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=107s"},{"start_seconds":115,"text":"Frontier and one balance uh 6 months ago we wrote something called called cake framework um and then recently we are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=115s"},{"start_seconds":123,"text":"working on unbalance which is a new type of account model which basically uh gives users instantaneous cross chain experience and that's what that's what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=123s"},{"start_seconds":130,"text":"we're working on testing perfect hello um my name is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=130s"},{"start_seconds":138,"text":"Joe uh I'm a co-founder of Mystic labs and we're building Calypso which is oneclick actions the whole idea is to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=138s"},{"start_seconds":146,"text":"abstract away bridging everything in between and allow users to say I have eth I want to stay here and one click no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=146s"},{"start_seconds":154,"text":"matter where cool thanks a lot guys um what I would like to start with is because I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=154s"},{"start_seconds":162,"text":"feel like we're approaching the same problem from different sides and from your point of view if you would have to choose one thing that is the biggest","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=162s"},{"start_seconds":171,"text":"Blocker of enabling chain abstraction and um interoperability what would be that and how you guys are approaching","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=171s"},{"start_seconds":178,"text":"that problem we can just go from the from that side um I think the the biggest problem","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=178s"},{"start_seconds":187,"text":"currently is it depends on I guess the focus of your your project but more specifically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=187s"},{"start_seconds":195,"text":"with with clipo in our use case uh it's there's a lot of like normality with bad ux in the space currently I guess um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=195s"},{"start_seconds":204,"text":"there's a lot of people trying to solve that problem and there's very unique and like nuanced ways to do that that so you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=204s"},{"start_seconds":211,"text":"either have to focus very nich on one specific Avenue there or you have to you have to try to take it all on on at once","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=211s"},{"start_seconds":219,"text":"and it's a very long and brutal process to do that uh so it's I think that the biggest challenge has been everybody","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=219s"},{"start_seconds":228,"text":"finding their Niche working on it and then collaborating together because that was just a long process but now I think we're getting there to a point where everybody is finding their Avenue and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=228s"},{"start_seconds":237,"text":"everybody can collaborate to kind of build this this wholeistic experience for everybody um yeah if you if you think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=237s"},{"start_seconds":246,"text":"about chain abstraction it's more about users don't see chains anymore and so every every individual or every company","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=246s"},{"start_seconds":255,"text":"at every lay of the stack has do do has to change something in how they behave how they operate today because chains are very Central to how all the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=255s"},{"start_seconds":263,"text":"infrastructure is build how the ux is buil how things are settled and so I think like all all the technology is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=263s"},{"start_seconds":270,"text":"already available at everyone's hands what is required is basically changing the mindset and and holding hands together and actually making the change","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=270s"},{"start_seconds":278,"text":"to give the user that uh that seamless experience and so coordination I think is like is like a bigger problem and coming up to one simple set of Standards","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=278s"},{"start_seconds":287,"text":"where people can agree on and just on board and and uh both users developers","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=287s"},{"start_seconds":293,"text":"everyone yeah I I would say for for us uh one of the things we've found very challenging with chain attraction is that blockchains are actually quite","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=293s"},{"start_seconds":301,"text":"different there's a lot of virtual machines they even though there's a lot of similarities there's a lot of big differences between them and how they work uh and a lot of the kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=301s"},{"start_seconds":309,"text":"abstracting solutions require a lot of specific work for each individual chain uh which makes it pretty difficult to kind of have a comprehensive solution so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=309s"},{"start_seconds":317,"text":"uh I think what's what we're excited about with our solution is that it's really more about supporting signing schemes rather than necessarily supporting a specific blockchain uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=317s"},{"start_seconds":325,"text":"which I think makes the system quite a bit more flexible and and means that teams who are kind of leveraging chain signatures can uh in theory settle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=325s"},{"start_seconds":333,"text":"transactions on any chain uh by mostly leveraging a lot of the existing tool a uh for each as individual chains yeah first of all I think it's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=333s"},{"start_seconds":342,"text":"good question um and I have a few answers to it but I'll focus on one I think first of all I think what Ankit said is is exactly one of the biggest issues with chain of structure at the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=342s"},{"start_seconds":350,"text":"moment is that there needs to be better coordination among chain of structure projects and technologies that are kind of built within the chain of instruction stock I think the cake framework is a great way to understand um what tech","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=350s"},{"start_seconds":359,"text":"techologies are kind of within the composition of chain obstruction and the chain obstruction stack and then even within like projects that are building chain obstruction that are explicitly","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=359s"},{"start_seconds":366,"text":"creating chain obstruction Solutions um I see this is also a need for better coordination there needs to be some degree of set standards or even just kind of General agreement on uh shared","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=366s"},{"start_seconds":375,"text":"goals um that allow chain of instuction to be more collective in terms of you know reducing uh the whole meme that you know we're just kind of creating another","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=375s"},{"start_seconds":382,"text":"standard to compete with the existing 15 standards this is actually I think a real problem that we're currently approaching within chain abstraction um so I think it's important to to avoid","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=382s"},{"start_seconds":391,"text":"this and to to be a little bit more collaborative in that sense I think I'll cheat a little bit I think the second problem is that some uh the industry as a whole to some degree um there's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=391s"},{"start_seconds":399,"text":"little bit of push back on chain obstruction um I think there's been some some tweets and stuff recently where people have said that uh they actually want to see and they want to interact","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=399s"},{"start_seconds":408,"text":"with every individual chain they don't want this to be abstracted from them which makes sense that this is this is a foreign idea for a lot of people and it's a evolution in how we look at user","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=408s"},{"start_seconds":416,"text":"experience and how we look at how us interact with application day to-day so there I I do expect and I think we're already seeing some degree of um ideological push back on the idea of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=416s"},{"start_seconds":424,"text":"chain of struction has be implemented um but I think as we actually start to materialize this idea and real solutions start to to be present I think people will hopefully realize that this is a a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=424s"},{"start_seconds":433,"text":"necessary solution but I think it's going to be some degree of um mind share and some hurdle that we're going to face especially going into the next six months but both can be true at the same","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=433s"},{"start_seconds":441,"text":"time right like you can have one set of users who don't care about the chains and one set of users who really uh care about them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=441s"},{"start_seconds":450,"text":"instruction is a spectrum which I think it's a good way to say I think those are very good points um which is kind of my next question is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=450s"},{"start_seconds":458,"text":"related to that because right now what you said is some part or what we were talking about is some some people will like to be more chain abstracted um side","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=458s"},{"start_seconds":467,"text":"of things and some are more invol want to be more involved when you're building chain abstracted experiences what are the trade-offs that you're taking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=467s"},{"start_seconds":475,"text":"compared to the current status quo of how people interact with chain maybe we can talk about that a little bit starting from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=475s"},{"start_seconds":483,"text":"here anybody I think the currently the tradeoff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=483s"},{"start_seconds":489,"text":"is if you're more as they were talking about if you're a more advanced user certain users might not really want the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=489s"},{"start_seconds":497,"text":"the experience that chain abstraction brings especially because it kind of creates assumptions for the user in many","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=497s"},{"start_seconds":505,"text":"cases so if you're a user that is very specific on what you want to do you know exactly what you want to do how you want to get there I think chain abstraction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=505s"},{"start_seconds":514,"text":"probably wouldn't be a great product be whatever if the product's using chain abstraction for example our product wouldn't be a great use case for you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=514s"},{"start_seconds":522,"text":"you're not really a Target user in that sense I think the the target user would be more somebody that is okay with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=522s"},{"start_seconds":532,"text":"giving up certain decisions when it comes to I want to do this I have this make it happen um so I think that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=532s"},{"start_seconds":541,"text":"trade-off comes down to your your user like is the user more advanced what comes with that more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=541s"},{"start_seconds":548,"text":"advanced user um and then how does how do you build the processes around that um and then you can even get into like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=548s"},{"start_seconds":555,"text":"more specifics where you're building around chain abstraction and I want to build for a core user base that maybe is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=555s"},{"start_seconds":564,"text":"I'm making those decisions and those assumptions for but I want to actually build out the product so I have more advanced user base and I can let them choose those specific decisions um and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=564s"},{"start_seconds":573,"text":"think that's what a lot of the core Technologies like um like chain signatures aor orchestration I think are doing um and I think that helps us get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=573s"},{"start_seconds":582,"text":"there so I think that are like five core tradeoffs that you need to come around some agreement on and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=582s"},{"start_seconds":591,"text":"like the one is on the ux layer which is as we already discussed ux or users have user preferences are Spectrum some users","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=591s"},{"start_seconds":599,"text":"use a hardware wallet and they spec they actually read each and every uh bite code before signing something and then there are some users who use telegram","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=599s"},{"start_seconds":607,"text":"Bots and but telegram Bots are still import important because they they generate like 30% of the order flow now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=607s"},{"start_seconds":614,"text":"and so user user preferences are a spectrum across like how much user experience they want versus how much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=614s"},{"start_seconds":620,"text":"security they want the second is uh what you are trying to transfer across chains like are you trying to transfer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=620s"},{"start_seconds":627,"text":"information so are you trying to vote on a governance thing or are you trying to transfer values are you trying to transfer tokens are you doing trying to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=627s"},{"start_seconds":635,"text":"do swaps and there are some decisions that you need to do over there as well uh there there tradeoffs with respect to speed users would sometimes users just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=635s"},{"start_seconds":643,"text":"want want to do things very very quickly and so they're very happy to pay a high amount of price for that versus sometimes us are willing to wait and there because things are multi-chain and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=643s"},{"start_seconds":652,"text":"things are asynchronous there's also like uh reliability or transaction execution guarantee issues like sometimes things might just fail because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=652s"},{"start_seconds":659,"text":"the state has just uh moved due to due to the latency issues and so these are I think the five tradeoffs and that's what also we wrote in the cake framework and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=659s"},{"start_seconds":668,"text":"depending on what type of user you want to make a product for you can have different you can pick and choose different Lego blocks in these different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=668s"},{"start_seconds":677,"text":"layers of the cake and and build a particular solution for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=677s"},{"start_seconds":684,"text":"them okay so um yeah I agree with an I think that um um like you know abstraction as as was said um you know a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=684s"},{"start_seconds":693,"text":"few times in the past few minutes is ultimately a spectrum that is dependent upon user decision and I mean the way that I typically look at it is typically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=693s"},{"start_seconds":701,"text":"like applications and how they intend Their audience to interact with their application some applications might expect a more advanced audience that uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=701s"},{"start_seconds":709,"text":"requires less levels of abstraction less layers of abstraction to where it's more um direct with whatever they're doing they see the chains that they're using they see the routes that they're taking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=709s"},{"start_seconds":717,"text":"Etc and so they can more accurately assess risk and kind of there's less trust assumptions that you don't have to trust less entities um whereas some applications like for example games or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=717s"},{"start_seconds":725,"text":"social fly Etc that are more consumer facing they might be more abstracted um so the degree of abstraction is greater than something that is assuming a a more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=725s"},{"start_seconds":734,"text":"technical audience um this is important this means that whenever you're looking at well how much abstraction should you have how much what are the assumptions the trust assumptions associated with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=734s"},{"start_seconds":741,"text":"this um the way that IC is it usually comes down to the application and so even in scenarios where you have the maximum level of abstraction where you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=741s"},{"start_seconds":749,"text":"you really remove all this from uses which is going to be I would guess a more common scenario especially when you get into this new era of kind of like consumer facing blockchain um I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=749s"},{"start_seconds":758,"text":"this is where you have a lot of the trust that kind of now lays on applications and to some degrees is also solvers whenever you get into a 10 sric systems um which I repeat this all the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=758s"},{"start_seconds":766,"text":"time but I believe it was ever clear that said it that solvers are also economically incentivized to U make more secure decisions applications are to some degree by just the the nature of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=766s"},{"start_seconds":774,"text":"being a more free market are incentivized to make more secure decisions on the chains that they use and um choosing chains that are inherently more secure and robust and um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=774s"},{"start_seconds":783,"text":"handling users user funds in a way that's more responsible so I think when you look at trust assumptions and how much abstract you should have it ultimately comes down to the application","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=783s"},{"start_seconds":790,"text":"the intended audience and um how these users are going to interact this application um but even those more severe scenarios where really it is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=790s"},{"start_seconds":797,"text":"ultimately a almost web three invisible experience um I still don't see this necessarily as much of a risk because these are the users that want the experience and you still have a large","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=797s"},{"start_seconds":805,"text":"degree of incentives for better security yeah I think the to dive even deeper into that point I think it's it's very accurate that they uh the trust","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=805s"},{"start_seconds":814,"text":"assumptions it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out I think to paint like a very explicit point on this if a user just wants to trade from one asset","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=814s"},{"start_seconds":821,"text":"to another how like basically whatever route is taken is not particularly relevant to them as long as they end up with the asset they desire to have at a price that is with you within their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=821s"},{"start_seconds":829,"text":"slippage tolerance they're okay with that where it gets more complicated is something like using uh a lending protocol where you're actually going to be locking up funds for an extended period of time because then you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=829s"},{"start_seconds":837,"text":"actually ultimately trusting wherever those funds end up and then for like some some kind of unknown or or unspecified potentially duration so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=837s"},{"start_seconds":845,"text":"think it's be really interesting to see how a lot of these products and applications and you know everybody in the whole stat kind of navigates that specific set of trade-offs when it comes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=845s"},{"start_seconds":852,"text":"to like more long duration trusted counterparty esque type of situation even if the counterparty is ultimately a smart","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=852s"},{"start_seconds":861,"text":"contract I those are very good qu points what I would like to also take a look at from a trade-off standpoint is RV still","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=861s"},{"start_seconds":868,"text":"having a trust system or are we moving the trust assumptions to different places while we're creating chain abstracted experiences what are your thoughts on this do we still on the path","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=868s"},{"start_seconds":877,"text":"of making everything trustless or are we trying to from moving the trust assumption from Bridges to solvers are we moving to problem or are we actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=877s"},{"start_seconds":886,"text":"solving the problem what are your thoughts on this I I think it's a combination of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=886s"},{"start_seconds":892,"text":"both um to be really honest uh but I think that to to to get to a spot where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=892s"},{"start_seconds":901,"text":"you can go I want Z this I have a make make it happen you you inherently have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=901s"},{"start_seconds":909,"text":"to make trust trust assumptions and I think over time we might get to a spot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=909s"},{"start_seconds":915,"text":"where a lot of the abstraction is built around actually making it 100% trustless","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=915s"},{"start_seconds":923,"text":"but by a degree when you're going to an application and you're using it you're already implying trust in that application in one way or another um so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=923s"},{"start_seconds":932,"text":"I think that depends on how you look and what your definition of trustless is but I think we're just like I mean the space","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=932s"},{"start_seconds":940,"text":"in general the ecosystem as a whole over the last decade I think we get to a spot over three five 10 years where it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=940s"},{"start_seconds":948,"text":"becomes more and more trustless it might not be there from the gecko um but I do think it's a combination of both to be honest yeah I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=948s"},{"start_seconds":956,"text":"like the trust assumptions would generally increase because you're abstracting details away from the user but the core uh thing that you're trying","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=956s"},{"start_seconds":965,"text":"to solve is that users don't need to make those decisions anymore and so users are trusting the daps and so instead of the users deciding what chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=965s"},{"start_seconds":973,"text":"I need to move my assets on uh the users are just trusting the daps that the daps are deploying on the correct chains and the daps decide where the assets are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=973s"},{"start_seconds":982,"text":"deployed and so that is one trust assumption that might have changed because we have abstracted some of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=982s"},{"start_seconds":988,"text":"det details uh but I would argue that users still trust daps today anyways like if you go to unop you trust that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=988s"},{"start_seconds":995,"text":"the unop smart contract has a has been audited properly if you go to their website you uh you trust that their website has does not has not been hacked","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=995s"},{"start_seconds":1003,"text":"in the last 10 minutes or whatever and so there is there is some amount of trust that already users do when they use dabs uh you're just increasing the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1003s"},{"start_seconds":1012,"text":"the amount of trust service yeah I think it's it seems like there's some consensus that you are in fact it at least Shifting the trust","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1012s"},{"start_seconds":1019,"text":"assumptions and probably increasing them I think the really important thing is like yes ultimately you're probably going to be increasing some trust","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1019s"},{"start_seconds":1026,"text":"assumptions here what's critical though and kind of is critical for the whole Space is that even with these increased trust assumptions like these applications should be pretty damn","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1026s"},{"start_seconds":1035,"text":"verifiable like as verifiable as possible at every level that they possibly can um and there should be Alternatives right I think it would be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1035s"},{"start_seconds":1042,"text":"unfortunate if we ended up in a scenario where it was like everything was purely solver based and offchain and you didn't have like amm or things like purely onchain liquidity anymore because then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1042s"},{"start_seconds":1051,"text":"you don't even have like that check and balance of like alternative systems or would take some time to kind of rebuild them so I think that's that's kind of like a future that is a little bit uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1051s"},{"start_seconds":1059,"text":"scary uh but I think the beauty of crypto is if you have like different tradeoffs right for different users then everybody can kind of like make the sort","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1059s"},{"start_seconds":1067,"text":"of assumptions that they're comfortable with and then hopefully we maintain a culture of uh every like verify everything so even if you know right now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1067s"},{"start_seconds":1074,"text":"you're basically trusting experts other than you for the most part to audit smart contract of the protocols you use uh or trusting that that process","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1074s"},{"start_seconds":1081,"text":"happened even if it's not very explicit um and I think it's it's important that like that mindset and that kind of culture is maintained even if we shift","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1081s"},{"start_seconds":1090,"text":"towards like kind of slightly more trusted systems for for a lot of use cases yeah I think you know this is this is all true I think really in terms of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1090s"},{"start_seconds":1098,"text":"an ecosystem wide goal maybe a trustless future is not super practical especially with the type of user experience we're trying to achieve I think rather trust minimized is probably a more accurate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1098s"},{"start_seconds":1107,"text":"goal to strive towards um because these trust assumptions are unavoidable whenever you're abstracting things away whenever you're removing information from the user whenever","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1107s"},{"start_seconds":1115,"text":"you're uh doing things for them then inherently there's some degree of of trust um but I think importantly is that there's things done to minimize this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1115s"},{"start_seconds":1123,"text":"trust and make it more uh like less risky for the user but I think at the same time like something that is a little bit less talked about with chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1123s"},{"start_seconds":1130,"text":"abstraction is that chain abstraction in terms of how it affects the market um means that applications are actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1130s"},{"start_seconds":1137,"text":"competing on a much larger basis now so applications aren't competing within Silo eems they aren't competing within for example polygon or I'm not competing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1137s"},{"start_seconds":1144,"text":"with like another Dex on polygon I'm competing with the entire web through industry because users are universalized and at the same time this means that because applications have a much higher","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1144s"},{"start_seconds":1153,"text":"degree of competition with one another their incentives to create more secure and and ultimately user focused experiences are also increased and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1153s"},{"start_seconds":1161,"text":"this is one important part of chain of struction I think is is goes beyond just user experience is that applications and really the whole competitive market","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1161s"},{"start_seconds":1168,"text":"Market moves towards rewarding more secure experiences and more secure applications and things that make better decisions more responsible decisions U so I mentioned this a moment ago but I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1168s"},{"start_seconds":1176,"text":"think that this is one of the most important considerations when it comes to to the risk and the trust attached to it because if we get to an ecosystem where you have these leading","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1176s"},{"start_seconds":1183,"text":"applications I think these applications will be leading and you're going to have the the applications that will emerge because they make more responsible decisions and this is going to be a big","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1183s"},{"start_seconds":1191,"text":"factor of who wins and kind of the um the application race cool I think uh um yeah I agree","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1191s"},{"start_seconds":1200,"text":"with with what you guys are saying basically trust assumption is always there we're trying to make everything trust minim minimized um from our inoperability standpoint because that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1200s"},{"start_seconds":1208,"text":"what we also want to talk about um what I would like to get to is um in your own project context what are you guys","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1208s"},{"start_seconds":1216,"text":"working on specifically that excites you a lot right now um that would help the chain abstraction developers um navigate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1216s"},{"start_seconds":1224,"text":"this inoperability labant and all of this um hard that comes with it um I think what was spoken about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1224s"},{"start_seconds":1233,"text":"before probably um where there's a lot of there's a lot of blockchains there's a lot of protocols there's a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1233s"},{"start_seconds":1241,"text":"everything and that comes with a lot of fragmentation and I'm I think as a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1241s"},{"start_seconds":1249,"text":"builder coming into space just in general let alone trying to build something with chain abstraction um you can get a lot really overwhelmed with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1249s"},{"start_seconds":1258,"text":"the large amount of standards across various blockchains um so I think it's pretty exciting to see now we're getting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1258s"},{"start_seconds":1266,"text":"to a spot where everybody sees that problem they're working on it and as a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1266s"},{"start_seconds":1274,"text":"developer new developers come into into the ecosystem even just Web Two developers that might just be toying","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1274s"},{"start_seconds":1281,"text":"with web 3 I think that I'm very excited to see an easier entrance for those developers and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1281s"},{"start_seconds":1289,"text":"think that has been a big problem that I've seen around me a lot and I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1289s"},{"start_seconds":1296,"text":"it's being solved pretty rapidly um just in the last six months I would even say there's been a drastic change in that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1296s"},{"start_seconds":1304,"text":"direction and specifically from your project standpoint we yeah we've ran into that from our project standpoint so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1304s"},{"start_seconds":1311,"text":"for example we do one click actions from let's say evm into Cosmos we're very Cosmos heavy heavy heavily oriented so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1311s"},{"start_seconds":1318,"text":"let's say you have ethereum um Ethan ethereum and you want to stake in the cosmos Hub you could doing that now it takes about six or seven steps we're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1318s"},{"start_seconds":1326,"text":"trying to abstract that away entirely so it's one click one signature that in goes across three","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1326s"},{"start_seconds":1332,"text":"different ecosystems it goes across four different blockchains there all four have different standards it's just a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1332s"},{"start_seconds":1339,"text":"mess so as a developer coming into this trying to build those step by step becomes very challenging to have because it's a you're just learning 24/7 which I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1339s"},{"start_seconds":1348,"text":"mean in all regards as what a developer essentially is doing every single day and it's just it's just a big hurdle to overcome when you're just trying to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1348s"},{"start_seconds":1356,"text":"build a product right um so you get distracted a lot we ran into this I see it around me often and I think that I'm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1356s"},{"start_seconds":1363,"text":"very excited to see that the space is now moving towards towards a place where they're I mean I'll use it again but abstracting the way that um with with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1363s"},{"start_seconds":1372,"text":"chain signatures agoric orchestration and stuff along those lines yeah I uh at one balance what we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1372s"},{"start_seconds":1380,"text":"are trying to provide is this like instantaneous experience to the user so the user might use any Upstream uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1380s"},{"start_seconds":1388,"text":"wallet wallet service or order flow or dab and they as soon as they click the button they get the execution on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1388s"},{"start_seconds":1395,"text":"target chain and then they don't have to wait for finality for anything and uh uh it's also like agnostic of any type of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1395s"},{"start_seconds":1403,"text":"coordination layer any type of solver layer any type of execution layer underneath it so it's just like uh thin middle layer of account new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1403s"},{"start_seconds":1411,"text":"account that we proposing that just reduces the users time to wait for execution and lets more sophisticated parties like the solvers who get paid to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1411s"},{"start_seconds":1420,"text":"do these uh who get paid to find these routes and who get paid to hold liquidity and who get paid to do execution do the job for the user and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1420s"},{"start_seconds":1427,"text":"wait for eventual uh settlement but the for the user is just one click single instantaneous","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1427s"},{"start_seconds":1437,"text":"experience uh yeah I liked I liked what Ethan said earlier about um turning crypto into kind of this like like from a bunch of marketplaces where kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1437s"},{"start_seconds":1445,"text":"specific products on single chains to kind of like creating just a unified sort of marketplace of all these products um and I think like yeah what we've been excited about with with what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1445s"},{"start_seconds":1453,"text":"we're working on is that we um can make it a bit more straightforward for I think developers to build products that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1453s"},{"start_seconds":1461,"text":"can just serve multiple chains without making a whole lot of assumptions about how those chains work or even what chains even exist uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1461s"},{"start_seconds":1469,"text":"and I'm hopeful that uh you know we we see an increasing number of categories of products like oracles or Bridges uh that they just really want to serve","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1469s"},{"start_seconds":1477,"text":"anyone who's willing to consume basically the product that they're putting out there regardless of chain like they're not particularly like Max about any chain and I think uh we're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1477s"},{"start_seconds":1484,"text":"we're excited to like push push on that design space and like try to you know really see this kind of new category of application flourish and and I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1484s"},{"start_seconds":1492,"text":"yeah just create a more competitive Marketplace for for for users which ultimately improve the ux yeah I think this is kind of like the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1492s"},{"start_seconds":1500,"text":"idea of the chain agnostic application so applications that exceed the confines of any specific chain um at particle we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1500s"},{"start_seconds":1507,"text":"do a little bit more of a user facing technology so applications will integrate our SDK that essentially allows users to onboard in this application using what we call Universal","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1507s"},{"start_seconds":1515,"text":"account um that basically allows it's a smart account that they can use to then interact with this chain with balances if they hold in any any other chain so it's basically a way to access a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1515s"},{"start_seconds":1522,"text":"universal pool of users um and this is like what we consider actually is is account level chain abstraction so this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1522s"},{"start_seconds":1529,"text":"means that we specifically Target um chain abstraction from the account standpoint so it it actually doesn't agnos toy applications um but rather","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1529s"},{"start_seconds":1538,"text":"below us below particle in the stack you have application Level chain abstraction um this is where applications really are gasified because in the future","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1538s"},{"start_seconds":1546,"text":"developers are going to be able to build applications that not only can take users and onboard users from any blockchain and have them use the application but actually the application","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1546s"},{"start_seconds":1554,"text":"itself is not bound to any specific blockchain and the application itself interacts does things across four 5 10 12 different blockchains so this is like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1554s"},{"start_seconds":1563,"text":"what I think will be a really exciting fature for developers and for applications overall is going to be this kind of like you know Universal universalization on both sides where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1563s"},{"start_seconds":1571,"text":"users can onboard ther chain these applications themselves can interact and compose across any blockchain in the ecosystem there's a lot of other Solutions building towards us like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1571s"},{"start_seconds":1579,"text":"socket aor Etc that are allowing developers to really orchestrate and compose across chain so I think that this is also really part exciting part of chain abstraction that we see like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1579s"},{"start_seconds":1586,"text":"the full stack being a colle of like account level Solutions even including things like chain signatures um and then application Level Solutions which allow the true agnos ification of applications","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1586s"},{"start_seconds":1594,"text":"and this is really what I think is most exciting for developers very cool um so we're approaching to the last part of our um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1594s"},{"start_seconds":1604,"text":"talk and what I would like to hear from all of you guys is what do you guys want the incoming developers","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1604s"},{"start_seconds":1612,"text":"to utilize do while while utilizing your platform or while your products build on on top of it and how they you see them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1612s"},{"start_seconds":1620,"text":"using your your products going forward to create this chain abstracted World um for us specifically it I would would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1620s"},{"start_seconds":1630,"text":"love to see developers using the abstraction tools we've built along the way to build out our product um and just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1630s"},{"start_seconds":1639,"text":"kind of build out new use cases around it specifically when it comes to outside of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1639s"},{"start_seconds":1646,"text":"the ecosystems that we're currently targeting which is uh mainly just Ro evm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1646s"},{"start_seconds":1653,"text":"Cosmos uh near um Etc uh I think with as we've brought up before um that that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1653s"},{"start_seconds":1660,"text":"brings competition which just brings better products um so I think that's that that's what would be great to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1660s"},{"start_seconds":1669,"text":"see yeah like um using using what we building developers can tap into one balance of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1669s"},{"start_seconds":1677,"text":"users global State across all the chains and then give the users instantaneous cross chain experience where the users don't even need to see the chains","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1677s"},{"start_seconds":1684,"text":"anymore and as soon as they click a button they they get the execution they want yeah I think like kind of every the point everyone's sort of making about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1684s"},{"start_seconds":1693,"text":"like thinking about your application different ways you can today in like two important ways one is the fact that you can actually interact with multiple blockchains in a single product that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1693s"},{"start_seconds":1701,"text":"something that's like not really that explored today and I was talking earlier about an example of this like you know combining Bitcoin and eum","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1701s"},{"start_seconds":1708,"text":"uh and like borrowing us to deposit into like hyper liquid and take out a short position right and like tokenizing that so I think that's a really cool use case","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1708s"},{"start_seconds":1715,"text":"and the other is um is yeah kind of like building your application in a way that you could serve other developers or other applications on any chain so like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1715s"},{"start_seconds":1723,"text":"a great example this is just an oracle which like bring your verified price data onto one chain you kind of sign that payload uh like have that payload","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1723s"},{"start_seconds":1731,"text":"verified in some way and then anyone from any other chain can take that payload like kind of trust us relay it and then and then use that information and I mean that's just one very basic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1731s"},{"start_seconds":1740,"text":"example I think there's a whole kind of category around thatp of way of building an application yeah with particle Network um the way the developers will use it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1740s"},{"start_seconds":1748,"text":"will be relatively straightforward it's a an SDK that you basically plug in as like a typical it works very similarly to most account obstruction cks where it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1748s"},{"start_seconds":1755,"text":"sort of like exists has a plugin on top of like existing wallets like metamask and Ravi and stuff like that um and so it'll allow users to basically leverage a smart account that is universalized so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1755s"},{"start_seconds":1764,"text":"it like I mentioned kind of has one balance one state that you can use um across any application in any chain so applications will integrate this SDK and then allow users to leverage a universal","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1764s"},{"start_seconds":1772,"text":"account within this application um we also have uh existing social login and account obstruction sdks that are uh installed across 900 applications within","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1772s"},{"start_seconds":1779,"text":"the ecem approximately um so all these applications will actually upgrade automatically to use Universal accounts upon launch um and then other developers will be able to integrate it in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1779s"},{"start_seconds":1787,"text":"essentially 20 lines of code and then instantly unlock kind of this user base um that can be from any other ecosystem so this is how it's used with with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1787s"},{"start_seconds":1794,"text":"particle Network very simple SDK plugs into ether web3js stff like that in essentially 15 20 lines of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1794s"},{"start_seconds":1802,"text":"code very cool um very cool products I'm I'm also develop on myself and I would love to look into and use all the products that we're were talking about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1802s"},{"start_seconds":1810,"text":"and I think that's that's pretty much it for for our panel it was it was a great talking to you guys and let's get a round of applause thank","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1810s"},{"start_seconds":1818,"text":"you thank you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU&t=1818s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gf9PzAWIU","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/w8Gf9PzAWIU"}