{"id":"rwv2Ufr6VJw","title":"Layer 2 Stage | State of Governance: The Future of Protocol Politics","description":"State of Governance: The Future of Protocol Politics, presented by Eelco Fiole of Alpha Governance Partners, Nneoma Kanu of NEAR DevHub/StableLab/COLDS Collective, Lisa JY Tan of Economics Design, Sid Venkateswaran of Electric Capital, Karim Halabi of Outlier Ventures, at NEARCON 2023.\n\n\"Everything is politics.\" Is writer Thomas Mann's statement correct even in crypto? Join this discussion on the state of governance in the NEAR ecosystem and beyond, where protocol politicians work to advance their favorite chains in the still-evolving (and often flawed) realm of token-powered decision-making.\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nReddit:   / nearprotocol  \nDiscord: https://near.chat/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near  https://github.com/nearprotocol\nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\nCreate a wallet: https://wallet.near.org/create\nApps on NEAR: https://awesomenear.com/\nLearn to Build On NEAR: https://www.near.university/\nGrants & Funding: https://near.org/grants/\n#Blockchain #FutureisNEAR #NEAR #nearprotocol\n#nft #dao","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2023-11-28T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/rwv2Ufr6VJw/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"please welcome back near foundations Philip Suarez hello hello hello welcome back please have a seat if you're taking a seat take one close to the stage please this one's going to be interesting next up we're going to have a panel all about politics in a world that we live in the web three worlds where code is law what's politic takes place we're going to find out about it Kima Lobby is going to run a panel from outli adventures with a very interesting guest um please welcome on stage Karima laby and yeah hi everyone I'm Karim and yeah we have some really cool panelists today what's been nice is we've already been discussing governance and token models already before we got on stage so this panel can just be a continuation of things we've already been discussing um so yeah guys welcome up we have ilco from adonic Lisa from economics design and Sid from Electric Capital we also have one more person who could not make it today so yeah start off guys do you want to give a quick intro to yourselves we'll start with you ilco uh thank you well first of all it says ionic which is uh a company that I'm on the board of in terms of governance and it's going to present on Friday uh tokenization shop but I'm here for Alpha governance Partners uh which is a partnership uh fiduciary partnership where we do governance as a profession so we do protocol design or governance design for protocols serve on boards anything around governance in both the investment and blockchain space amazing um I'm Lisa and you probably help me just now I'm from economics design and we designed economics Off Systems including governance hey guys I'm Sid I'm part of Electric Capital uh I joined electric a year and a half ago spent a lot of time thinking about governance to economics defi liquidity provisioning and I'm excited to be here okay welcome everyone uh nice to meet you all um I suppose a nice place to start this discussion is something more high level and maybe we can start with sharing our thoughts on how we view the current state of protocol politics is it very mature immature and what what are some high level thoughts here and whoever wants to start off just jump in all right I'll start first so I'm going to come from the perspective where we do a lot of consultancy with early stage startups web 3 startups Web Two moving to web 3 and big web two companies going to web 3 and when we talk about governance with these clients they go huh H interesting I get that I get that but we're not at that face right now we talk about decentralization and everyone's about decentralization but how do we get there we do need a level of centralization for now that we build the economic governance structure in place to decentralize One Challenge over there is there is a big shift from as the market structure changes as as the governance the people in the governance Community come together to make decisions they as they change the the way we create the governance incentive or governance mechanism will change as well so how do we get the governor's structure or Governor's incentive to keep up with time I think that's a big Challenge and and in my opinion in my experience of working with with projects we are not there yet so I very much like the word politics in this title because in my mind governance is about representations of interests and so if you think about an ecosystem all of you know all these players within an ecosystem um have an interest at stake even people outside of an ecosystem can have an interest at stake and so the question then becomes how all of these Interest being represented in a protocol or in a company or in the ecosystem and the distribution of those powers and how those powers are being exercised that is basically the definition of of governance so where governance uh often times focuses on things like voting and and um who has a token and who doesn't have a token that falls short of the real uh issue that we need to design for which is how do we represent those interests uh into uh into in this case web three uh and that becomes a bit more complicated as you say as you move along from uh older structures web two structures into web three where we look into a higher level of decentralization and all kind of communities being powered by uh by tokens and so it is Politics the power to influence the power to decide the the power to be consulted the power to be um um uh yeah consulted as informed uh that all needs to be represented in the design uh of of governance and so it is uh um yeah we we're still early stage even though I've been in in in governance for half of my life and in governance in blockchain since 2017 I should I will also say that um if you don't get your governance right and we still see many cases where the governance is not right it's very easy to be accused of being a scam and nobody actually uh is interested in doing that so we are at the early stage I agree yeah I think there's a major misnomer that as long as the voting happens on chain using something like snapshot or tally you fulfill the demands of decentralized governance and I think right now we're seeing examples of that failing in reality um and you know what we really need to think of is you know who are the ones that deserve voting power who are the ones in charge of the protocol how do you slowly relinquish power from the founding team to the ones that are stakeholders users within the community um and you what are the important things that need to be decided by governance what is the standard for how conversations happen within the Forum standard for which proposals get put through um I think are all important questions questions that you know at least we're asking them now and people are talking about it but um like uh Lisa and Elco mentioned you're still we're still very early and hoping to find answers to all of these soon okay really nice um so something you've just mentioned is that a lot of these systems don't necessarily work even though they're on chain uh you know we talked about how maybe some people aren't ready for tokenized governance systems and also how tokens themselves are a tool are are are weapon in the Arsenal of the governance designer uh and they are not and they're just one mechanism that helps us design these systems uh and I feel often in web 3 we start with the token first and then try design the governance around it yeah so what are some things we can learn perhaps from the web 2 world or how can we approach governance design differently uh to how we are currently doing so I think this for you yeah IL well I could start but it would be a long long answer um so a couple of things so first of all to start with the last piece what can we learn from from other settings um so governance and also distributed governance is is a phenomena which we know from other fields so I work a lot in the investment space if you look at fund governance the governance of investment funds this is a distributed uh set of operations not the same as integrated corporate governance and so you got different service providers that all let's say provide services to a fund and that that that that responsibility especially the knowledge of the fiduciary responsibility namely working with assets of somebody else working with money from somebody else or risk from somebody else is distributed over a network and so we can learn from how that Network how that investment construct let me call it like like this uh how that operates and how it integrates uh certain principles which are important for governance things like Integrity Market Integrity investor protection and so on how we can build this into our protocols when we uh design for distributed um def5 for example or web3 type of uh of environments uh if you look at more leo1 type of environment how governance we can do you can do governance there it's it is quite similar to governance of the commons where we say okay if you have clean air as a as an issue to deal with and everybody is is is benefiting from this or clean clean oceans and so on we have this kind of um uh setup around United Nations or any other multilateral organizations where everybody comes together and comes out with us you know with with with local hubs of governance comes together and agrees uh hopefully on policy and how to handle that and that is another type of governance that we can look at uh the governance of the commments and and learn from it for in this case uh layer one so there is lots to learn from other governance setups um now where we often times fall short is that if you look at the regulatory approaches that people take um very often quickly you know they fall back on what is already written in law now why this while this is all interesting I ask myself sometimes are we trying to um you know what are we trying to regulate here and web three particularly is so new that I think that we need to start you know one step back and say what is the kind of behavior that we want to see in our communities that we power with tokens and it is that kind of behavior and you alluded to it in your previous talk uh where we can uh design incentives for behavior that we want to promote behavior that we want to uh that which we don't want to see and put in build incentive Sy systems around that look at the risk for collusion look at the risk for abuse and and build incentives around that and then come to rules instead of automatically uh fall back on existing rules regulations which not necessarily apply very well the first part of the question um was was um how we can approach designing governance differently yeah so I'm so instead of uh falling back on just rules you know legal rules I would think that we need to go back and understand what what problem are we trying to solve with the protocol who are the stakeholders in this what interest are therefore at stake what are the behaviors that we want to see and not want to see incentivized for that have scenario planning and then come to uh uh a token design and sometimes you will end up and say okay maybe there's too much that goes into one token maybe you will need more tokens in an ecosystem or more incentive structures in an ecosystem also non- toen incentive structures to actually make it make it happen instead of trying to have everything on one token and then go to your regulatory advisor and say oh my goodness how how on Earth am ever going to get this token um tick to Sol by a regulator I like that you mentioned it's not just about companies kind of governance that we can learn from but also public goods so the first Nobel prize laurate in economics the female one yes Elena Ostrom she talked all about that how do you govern common goods anartica air water these are common goods that we all share how do we govern them how do we share the resources how do we make decisions collectively that's a really good angle to start looking at and I think one of us her students is Susan B wrote another book on governing the common goods and it's a very very good book talking about the framework of how to do that there are five steps to look at how do I govern these kind of assets it goes back to a point where this is relevant for the layer one blockchain or Layer Two blockchain when it comes to Applications there's a whole different way of governance and in the application layer if we break we can break governance down into two segments the first one is what is governance core principles first one is making decisions and the second is signaling because depending on the kind of governance it could represent in individuals and you can repres represent interest of different individuals like elected delegates and they they need to use tokens or they need to do some form of activities and actions to Signal the interest or signal what action is right and so governance comes in these two components and there are lot of different ways that web 3 specifically is exploring exploring we talked about the ve token models and I've been looking at some other ecosystems out there where we look at this decentralized ID how do I get the ID into these systems to represent delegated interest that that can then signal interest of different participants and then that's where we can have a voice for all the different economic activities or economic agents in this ecosystem and that's where governance can be the real governance we're talking about it's not by one person one vote it's not by the biggest will in the market or the biggest will in the room but it's a it's a decentralized or it's a representation of the ecosystem you know um you mentioned just now on who who should be the ones voting that's a very very difficult question question to ask because who decides who decides right there's a book called surveillance economy or surveillance economy or capitalism surveillance it's another very very good book talking about this question in big Tech today where we don't have we don't have tokens we have an economy without tokens and the people sitting on the boards of Facebook of Instagram um Google they are the ones deciding what we see they are the ones deciding who how decisions are being made but should they be the ones deciding sure they've got vested interest they are the key decision makers but they don't represent the minority of the actual users in the space and I think web 3 has the power to change that web 3 can change that but as you as Al mentioned there's still a long long way to go because it's about building the right Frameworks to get there it's about growing the economic the the governance structure with the economy and we're still very far away two points um you know first off given that we're all on crypto probably all believers in free markets over centralized economies but even within free markets whether it's on like a layer one layer one or an application there are very clearly certain behaviors that are beneficial for the community in protocol and certain behaviors that hurt it right and that comes down to incentives as Lisa mentioned earlier and in her previous talk as well so how can you carefully think about those incentives right now given that D5 seems to be the biggest thing that has product Market fit and we still working on things like decentralized ID Financial incentives are the biggest thing that control behaviors on chain so who are the ones that are willing to provide liquidity who are the ones that are earning Rewards ultimately how do they use those rewards to distribute that across the ecosystem and vote in various governance um and the second point that I was trying to mention um was talking about um sorry what did you just mention at the end there surveillance governance um I think about like decentralized ID um given that we still don't have the decentral ID and there's a lot of snonymous synonymous people that are online that makes this uh question even more challenging you know I think everyone has right to be pseudonymous and Anonymous especially when it comes to crypto and stuff that has uh when you're making strong claims and there's a lot of financial incentive that comes around this uh but still we need to allow individuals to build up that reputation and still have their voice heard regardless of how small or how big they are within the ecosystem if I if I may add to that I mean before that you also mentioned the book on surveillance capitalism it's 800 Pages who's get to decide do how do minorities also get represented that's why we need to ask ourselves this question um what who has an interest at stake not just who is a stakeholder which is easily but who has an interest at stake who is affected by this and how are their rights being represented and in my mind if you want adoption you need to be able to project trust right so you do your governance design and by showing your governance design where you show that all these interests are being represented you project trust and people will trust you and you can you know hope for uh for for adoption instead of just saying trust us code is law because code is law is not always the case the the moment that you and I have a conflict even in a dowo context and the conf and the conflict is big enough if you say if you if you battle around 5 million 10 million 20 $50 million at some stage we will take it offchain if you will we will go to court right and so this there there is you cannot only rely on an old chain solution uh in my mind for governance and we need to be able to build it such that it projects trust and still we have the interface with the offchain uh with with the offchain world yeah and another thing I observed is most people most projects will you know launch a token and then governance is mostly an afterthought for them or they'll just slap it on that oh it's a governance token and that's the main utility and I think people really need to step back and see how those things are actually kind of the same thing like if you talk about the incentives within tokenomics those incentives float to how people vote and how people behave within the governance uh structures that exist on Shane I I this a funny you mention this last year I spoke to a a team they were going to launch a well-known stable coin you would know it and the guy says to me oh you do governance that's great uh we'll launch and then we'll give you a call we do governance and I said my friend it's the other way around you first need to think about governance before you launch your stable coin and uh we had a at least a long Zoom call after that but that was that was they were too far in the process already to your point yeah all right so uh governance is um a combination of both onchain and offchain mechanisms and when it comes to designing these systems then what is something that web 3 allows us to do that you know prior to public blockchains existing we couldn't really do so so what do we really gain here from web 3 when it comes to governance you want to start yeah sure so I think from a higher level when it comes to web through governance given how open things are you know you don't have people talking in behind closed doors and deciding the fate of the entire thing you know maybe there are still certain situations where they have the power but at least they're having these discussions and making these decisions in the open so that people that can at least respond to them and have that discussion in place and when you know go a little bit further down and look towards stuff like proof of stake systems or when you delegate to them the like the ability to actually slash and have them like lose their power if they behave in a way that doesn't fit with the IDE ideology of the broader ecosystem is very helpful um and I think these are just kind of the first places where we're seeing this happen um you know we'll probably talk more about ve later too is you know right now these individuals are locked um in most of these projects but some places they allow you to leave your lock earlier um and to do that you often have to take a huge discount to um kind of the governance power and the value of your tokens that you've locked up and I think these are kind of these cool experiments of how do you actually Implement these disincentives on chain as which is equally as important as incentivizing positive behavior so go I'll go back to governance again where it's two points it's decision decision making or making decisions executing decisions and signaling when it comes to blockchain itself self we can trust the decisions being made we won't say that oh the election is fraudulent because we can't validate the people voting I think that's a big benefit of blockchain this the transparency and validity of data and that's beautiful and that is the technology itself the part of signaling is a whole different ball game we talk about ve there's token curated registry that is really popular in 2019 there are a lot of different kind of lists that you could vote there are a lot of different ways to start signaling your interest one because we talking about the future of of politics and future of protocol governance as well one thing that I would like to start throwing out there which is how can we leverage generative AI to help us to make these decisions so here's here's the context everything we're talking about right now is our quantitative governance we vote Yes or No we vote one or two we vote one to five whereas life is all qualitative it's about your opinions it's about your focus groups it's about your your thoughts it's about all these little nuances that you can't distill to numbers so how can we get AI just in general to start aggregating everyone's Collective opinions because you see so much of that in governance forums I really like governance forums because everyone has a say you list down you document it it's public everyone can read how can we leverage this information this rich rich data of qualitative data of people's opinions thoughts and and thought processes coming in and get that as part of governance can we start getting because life is not black and white life is not one or two can we use all these data we aggregate them and show a a degree of how many people agree and how many people disagree and then what is the spectrum of the community's opin or sentiment towards these specific this specific protocol or the specific governance proposals that we want to move forward and that can have that can help us with much richer conversation because maybe all the way at the end are the minorities that their voices are not heard but at least that is being seen in the spectrum that everyone is discussing and from there we can start cating and grouping things up in categories that can help us to get better ways of signaling that then translates to the second part of governance which is decision- making I think these two goes hand in hand and blockchain technology is a technology to help us to get there but it's not the b n all that's the only technology we need to use so while in web 3 especially of course you know you see communities getting active by themselves as you just alluded to um I think this this analysis of behavior that I mentioned before can also show us scenarios in where we can already predict collusion and so I think we need to also be uh mindful that the moment that uh we let communities run with things that that that you know companies have programmed people programs have put out there uh that we need to sort of watch out that the fiduciary responsibility for uh for tokens that being moved around uh or collusion or any other negative scenario is already based on the governance in the protocol sort of um I said that you can't that you can't do this based on what you have programmed there as well so I think it enables a lot a lot more and people can take that you know ecosystems can take new directions but at the same time there is a duty to watch out that uh these communities are not being taken over by colluding parties to move it in a bad Direction let's say or abuse it in a certain uh in a certain way and so it's just you know it it is um uh it is it is wonderful and you know promising but it can also be can also be risky and if you one of those parties involved such a community and you see it taken in a direction that goes against you then again you feel you feel basically scammed I think bribery is going to be a big thing that's both pros and cons in the blockchain space because when everything is is the signaling is very obvious you know who is voting in this direction and you know who are the key decision makers it's a lot cheaper to bribe in that sense and blockchain can be both pros and cons it's just a tool and tool is neutral you can use tools for good and tools for bad going back to the ve token model if I can start identifying the top 20% of people with vested tokens and lock tokens that they can vote with higher vesting power or or Stakes then I can I can bribe them much easier sure there's a different cost to that but it's all about coordination if I bribe everyone individually in this room versus just bribing three of all of us on the stage here it might be more expensive but I know there's a higher level of guarantee that all of us will coordinate and collude with a with a price compared to bribing everyone it's much cheaper but I have no guarantee that everyone's going to collude together and I think that's another risk that we are not seeing yet and that that is actually there's a risk that we are seeing yet which just not so shown on chains data yet that blockchain can also bring about yeah and another Dynamic that we're seeing is you know most of the time we talk about governance whether it being Web Two web 3 or nations it's like individual voters individual users individual investors but if you look at some of the ve ecosystem it's other protocols and Dows that are using this and if you look at other ecosystems as well like delegates have become a major Force so how does the Dynamics of who's the one that you're delegating to who are the major protocols or institutions that own these assets and how how do kind of their incentives play out within the governance structures as well is something that'll be like very interesting to see and there are online dashboards right and applications that we can use for that yeah yeah it's very interesting in ve how governance itself is hyper financialized yeah right which is not always uh good as we mentioned so we're running out of time here perhaps a very quick uh final notes um any thoughts on how you see the evolution of protocol politics um you know do you see them continuing to speedrun offchain governance systems and and kind of repeat history or do you see us maybe trying to take more of a step back or are just some of your thoughts here all right I'll go first so I have bested interest in making sure that these Protocols are creating good governance system my barriers that I'm facing is that these protocols that I'm working with they're like as as s mentioned yeah we we're think about governance later we need to coordinate and centralize the decisions and we talk about governance a little bit later we'll promise everyone governance tokens and we promise promise everyone some governance functionalities but we're not there yet and I I get it from a business perspective I know that's really important but it doesn't hit my bottom line it doesn't hit my p&l yet that's not something I want to think about there's so many other things to think about as a startup so how do we find that fine balance is still something that I'm I'm working on and still figuring out how do I balance between that but I'm excited to see things change I'm I'm hopeful for the future yeah not to sound pessimistic but you know at the end of the day whether it's onchain it's still kind of people that are making these decisions and you know our psychology and the way people interact isn't change just because of the infastructure thats out in but I do think that because it is open and there because there are clear consequences to how people make decisions we're going to continuously experiment and be able to move forward and make progress yeah I think also it's a bit of an uphill battle it's much better than five six seven years ago but it is it is still an uphill battle it comes too late Governor design need to be you know much earlier in the process So to avoid certain problems later on and I'm actually I'm in that sense optimistic because there's increasing awareness there increasing conversation around it so it's uphill but I I'm I'm I'm optimistic all right I think we're all optimistic and that brings us to time actually guys so thank you all for really fascinating panel and give it up please for the panelists thank you thanks nice discussion","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T06:14:50.342Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":1,"text":"please welcome back near foundations Philip","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1s"},{"start_seconds":9,"text":"Suarez hello hello hello welcome back please have a seat if you're taking a seat take one close to the stage please","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=9s"},{"start_seconds":17,"text":"this one's going to be interesting next up we're going to have a panel all about politics in a world","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=17s"},{"start_seconds":25,"text":"that we live in the web three worlds where code is law what's politic takes place we're going to find out about it Kima Lobby is going to run a panel from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=25s"},{"start_seconds":35,"text":"outli adventures with a very interesting guest um please welcome on stage Karima laby","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=35s"},{"start_seconds":47,"text":"and yeah hi everyone I'm Karim and yeah we have some really cool panelists today what's been nice is we've already been","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=47s"},{"start_seconds":56,"text":"discussing governance and token models already before we got on stage so this panel can just be a continuation of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=56s"},{"start_seconds":63,"text":"things we've already been discussing um so yeah guys welcome up we have ilco","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=63s"},{"start_seconds":69,"text":"from adonic Lisa from economics design and Sid from Electric","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=69s"},{"start_seconds":81,"text":"Capital we also have one more person who could not make it today so yeah start off guys do you want to give a quick intro to yourselves we'll start with you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=81s"},{"start_seconds":89,"text":"ilco uh thank you well first of all it says ionic which is uh a company that I'm on the board of in terms of governance and it's going to present on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=89s"},{"start_seconds":97,"text":"Friday uh tokenization shop but I'm here for Alpha governance Partners uh which is a partnership uh fiduciary","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=97s"},{"start_seconds":105,"text":"partnership where we do governance as a profession so we do protocol design or governance design for protocols serve on boards anything around governance in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=105s"},{"start_seconds":114,"text":"both the investment and blockchain space amazing um I'm Lisa and you probably help me just now I'm from economics design and we designed economics Off Systems including","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=114s"},{"start_seconds":123,"text":"governance hey guys I'm Sid I'm part of Electric Capital uh I joined electric a year and a half ago spent a lot of time thinking about governance to economics","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=123s"},{"start_seconds":132,"text":"defi liquidity provisioning and I'm excited to be here okay welcome everyone uh nice to meet you all um I suppose a nice place","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=132s"},{"start_seconds":142,"text":"to start this discussion is something more high level and maybe we can start with sharing our thoughts on how we view","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=142s"},{"start_seconds":149,"text":"the current state of protocol politics is it very mature immature and what what are some high level thoughts here and whoever wants to start off just jump in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=149s"},{"start_seconds":158,"text":"all right I'll start first so I'm going to come from the perspective where we do a lot of consultancy with early stage startups web 3 startups Web Two moving","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=158s"},{"start_seconds":165,"text":"to web 3 and big web two companies going to web 3 and when we talk about governance with these clients they go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=165s"},{"start_seconds":172,"text":"huh H interesting I get that I get that but we're not at that face right now we talk about decentralization and everyone's about decentralization but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=172s"},{"start_seconds":180,"text":"how do we get there we do need a level of centralization for now that we build the economic governance structure in place to decentralize One Challenge over","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=180s"},{"start_seconds":188,"text":"there is there is a big shift from as the market structure changes as as the governance the people in the governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=188s"},{"start_seconds":196,"text":"Community come together to make decisions they as they change the the way we create the governance incentive or governance mechanism will change as well so how do we get the governor's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=196s"},{"start_seconds":205,"text":"structure or Governor's incentive to keep up with time I think that's a big Challenge and and in my opinion in my experience of working with with projects","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=205s"},{"start_seconds":214,"text":"we are not there yet so I very much like the word politics in this title because in my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=214s"},{"start_seconds":222,"text":"mind governance is about representations of interests and so if you think about an ecosystem all of you know all these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=222s"},{"start_seconds":230,"text":"players within an ecosystem um have an interest at stake even people outside of an ecosystem can have an interest at stake and so the question then becomes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=230s"},{"start_seconds":238,"text":"how all of these Interest being represented in a protocol or in a company or in the ecosystem and the distribution of those powers and how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=238s"},{"start_seconds":247,"text":"those powers are being exercised that is basically the definition of of governance so where governance uh often","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=247s"},{"start_seconds":253,"text":"times focuses on things like voting and and um who has a token and who doesn't have a token that falls short of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=253s"},{"start_seconds":261,"text":"real uh issue that we need to design for which is how do we represent those interests uh into uh into in this case","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=261s"},{"start_seconds":269,"text":"web three uh and that becomes a bit more complicated as you say as you move along from uh older structures web two structures into web three where we look","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=269s"},{"start_seconds":277,"text":"into a higher level of decentralization and all kind of communities being powered by uh by tokens and so it is Politics the power to influence the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=277s"},{"start_seconds":286,"text":"power to decide the the power to be consulted the power to be um um uh yeah consulted as informed uh that all needs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=286s"},{"start_seconds":294,"text":"to be represented in the design uh of of governance and so it is uh um yeah we we're still early stage even though I've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=294s"},{"start_seconds":302,"text":"been in in in governance for half of my life and in governance in blockchain since 2017 I should I will also say that um if you don't get your governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=302s"},{"start_seconds":311,"text":"right and we still see many cases where the governance is not right it's very easy to be accused of being a scam and nobody actually uh is interested in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=311s"},{"start_seconds":319,"text":"doing that so we are at the early stage I agree yeah I think there's a major misnomer that as long as the voting happens on chain using something like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=319s"},{"start_seconds":327,"text":"snapshot or tally you fulfill the demands of decentralized governance and I think right now we're seeing examples of that failing in reality um and you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=327s"},{"start_seconds":335,"text":"know what we really need to think of is you know who are the ones that deserve voting power who are the ones in charge of the protocol how do you slowly","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=335s"},{"start_seconds":342,"text":"relinquish power from the founding team to the ones that are stakeholders users within the community um and you what are the important things that need to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=342s"},{"start_seconds":350,"text":"decided by governance what is the standard for how conversations happen within the Forum standard for which proposals get put through um I think are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=350s"},{"start_seconds":358,"text":"all important questions questions that you know at least we're asking them now and people are talking about it but um like uh Lisa and Elco mentioned you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=358s"},{"start_seconds":366,"text":"still we're still very early and hoping to find answers to all of these soon okay really nice um so something you've just mentioned is that a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=366s"},{"start_seconds":375,"text":"these systems don't necessarily work even though they're on chain uh you know we talked about how maybe some people aren't ready for tokenized governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=375s"},{"start_seconds":383,"text":"systems and also how tokens themselves are a tool are are are weapon in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=383s"},{"start_seconds":390,"text":"Arsenal of the governance designer uh and they are not and they're just one mechanism that helps us design these systems uh and I feel often in web 3 we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=390s"},{"start_seconds":399,"text":"start with the token first and then try design the governance around it yeah so what are some things we can learn","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=399s"},{"start_seconds":406,"text":"perhaps from the web 2 world or how can we approach governance design differently uh to how we are currently","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=406s"},{"start_seconds":414,"text":"doing so I think this for you yeah IL well I could start but it would be a long long answer um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=414s"},{"start_seconds":421,"text":"so a couple of things so first of all to start with the last piece what can we learn from from other settings um so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=421s"},{"start_seconds":429,"text":"governance and also distributed governance is is a phenomena which we know from other fields so I work a lot in the investment space if you look at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=429s"},{"start_seconds":437,"text":"fund governance the governance of investment funds this is a distributed uh set of operations not the same as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=437s"},{"start_seconds":445,"text":"integrated corporate governance and so you got different service providers that all let's say provide services to a fund and that that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=445s"},{"start_seconds":453,"text":"that that responsibility especially the knowledge of the fiduciary responsibility namely working with assets of somebody else working with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=453s"},{"start_seconds":462,"text":"money from somebody else or risk from somebody else is distributed over a network and so we can learn from how that Network how that investment","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=462s"},{"start_seconds":470,"text":"construct let me call it like like this uh how that operates and how it integrates uh certain principles which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=470s"},{"start_seconds":477,"text":"are important for governance things like Integrity Market Integrity investor protection and so on how we can build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=477s"},{"start_seconds":484,"text":"this into our protocols when we uh design for distributed um def5 for example or web3 type of uh of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=484s"},{"start_seconds":492,"text":"environments uh if you look at more leo1 type of environment how governance we can do you can do governance there it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=492s"},{"start_seconds":500,"text":"it is quite similar to governance of the commons where we say okay if you have clean air as a as an issue to deal with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=500s"},{"start_seconds":507,"text":"and everybody is is is benefiting from this or clean clean oceans and so on we have this kind of um uh setup around","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=507s"},{"start_seconds":516,"text":"United Nations or any other multilateral organizations where everybody comes together and comes out with us you know with with with local hubs of governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=516s"},{"start_seconds":524,"text":"comes together and agrees uh hopefully on policy and how to handle that and that is another type of governance that we can look at uh the governance of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=524s"},{"start_seconds":533,"text":"commments and and learn from it for in this case uh layer one so there is lots to learn from other governance setups um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=533s"},{"start_seconds":541,"text":"now where we often times fall short is that if you look at the regulatory approaches that people take um very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=541s"},{"start_seconds":549,"text":"often quickly you know they fall back on what is already written in law now why this while this is all interesting I ask","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=549s"},{"start_seconds":556,"text":"myself sometimes are we trying to um you know what are we trying to regulate here and web three particularly is so new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=556s"},{"start_seconds":564,"text":"that I think that we need to start you know one step back and say what is the kind of behavior that we want to see in our communities that we power with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=564s"},{"start_seconds":571,"text":"tokens and it is that kind of behavior and you alluded to it in your previous talk uh where we can uh design incentives for behavior that we want to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=571s"},{"start_seconds":580,"text":"promote behavior that we want to uh that which we don't want to see and put in build incentive Sy systems around that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=580s"},{"start_seconds":587,"text":"look at the risk for collusion look at the risk for abuse and and build incentives around that and then come to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=587s"},{"start_seconds":594,"text":"rules instead of automatically uh fall back on existing rules regulations which not necessarily apply very well the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=594s"},{"start_seconds":603,"text":"first part of the question um was was um how we can approach designing governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=603s"},{"start_seconds":610,"text":"differently yeah so I'm so instead of uh falling back on just rules you know legal rules I would think that we need to go back and understand what what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=610s"},{"start_seconds":618,"text":"problem are we trying to solve with the protocol who are the stakeholders in this what interest are therefore at stake what are the behaviors that we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=618s"},{"start_seconds":626,"text":"want to see and not want to see incentivized for that have scenario planning and then come to uh uh a token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=626s"},{"start_seconds":633,"text":"design and sometimes you will end up and say okay maybe there's too much that goes into one token maybe you will need more tokens in an ecosystem or more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=633s"},{"start_seconds":642,"text":"incentive structures in an ecosystem also non- toen incentive structures to actually make it make it happen instead of trying to have everything on one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=642s"},{"start_seconds":650,"text":"token and then go to your regulatory advisor and say oh my goodness how how on Earth am ever going to get this token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=650s"},{"start_seconds":658,"text":"um tick to Sol by a regulator I like that you mentioned it's not just about companies kind of governance that we can learn from but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=658s"},{"start_seconds":665,"text":"also public goods so the first Nobel prize laurate in economics the female one yes Elena Ostrom she talked all about that how do you govern common","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=665s"},{"start_seconds":674,"text":"goods anartica air water these are common goods that we all share how do we govern them how do we share the resources how do we make decisions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=674s"},{"start_seconds":682,"text":"collectively that's a really good angle to start looking at and I think one of us her students is Susan B wrote another","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=682s"},{"start_seconds":689,"text":"book on governing the common goods and it's a very very good book talking about the framework of how to do that there are five steps to look at how do I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=689s"},{"start_seconds":696,"text":"govern these kind of assets it goes back to a point where this is relevant for the layer one blockchain or Layer Two blockchain when it comes to Applications there's a whole different way of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=696s"},{"start_seconds":705,"text":"governance and in the application layer if we break we can break governance down into two segments the first one is what is governance core principles first one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=705s"},{"start_seconds":712,"text":"is making decisions and the second is signaling because depending on the kind of governance it could represent in individuals and you can repres represent","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=712s"},{"start_seconds":721,"text":"interest of different individuals like elected delegates and they they need to use tokens or they need to do some form of activities and actions to Signal the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=721s"},{"start_seconds":730,"text":"interest or signal what action is right and so governance comes in these two components and there are lot of different ways that web 3 specifically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=730s"},{"start_seconds":737,"text":"is exploring exploring we talked about the ve token models and I've been looking at some other ecosystems out there where we look at this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=737s"},{"start_seconds":744,"text":"decentralized ID how do I get the ID into these systems to represent delegated interest that that can then signal interest of different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=744s"},{"start_seconds":752,"text":"participants and then that's where we can have a voice for all the different economic activities or economic agents in this ecosystem and that's where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=752s"},{"start_seconds":760,"text":"governance can be the real governance we're talking about it's not by one person one vote it's not by the biggest will in the market or the biggest will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=760s"},{"start_seconds":767,"text":"in the room but it's a it's a decentralized or it's a representation of the ecosystem you know um you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=767s"},{"start_seconds":774,"text":"mentioned just now on who who should be the ones voting that's a very very difficult question question to ask because who decides who decides right there's a book called surveillance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=774s"},{"start_seconds":783,"text":"economy or surveillance economy or capitalism surveillance it's another very very good book talking about this question in big Tech today where we don't have we don't have tokens we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=783s"},{"start_seconds":791,"text":"an economy without tokens and the people sitting on the boards of Facebook of Instagram um Google they are the ones","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=791s"},{"start_seconds":798,"text":"deciding what we see they are the ones deciding who how decisions are being made but should they be the ones deciding sure they've got vested interest they are the key decision","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=798s"},{"start_seconds":806,"text":"makers but they don't represent the minority of the actual users in the space and I think web 3 has the power to change that web 3 can change that but as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=806s"},{"start_seconds":814,"text":"you as Al mentioned there's still a long long way to go because it's about building the right Frameworks to get there it's about growing the economic the the governance structure with the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=814s"},{"start_seconds":823,"text":"economy and we're still very far away two points um you know first off given that we're all on crypto probably","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=823s"},{"start_seconds":830,"text":"all believers in free markets over centralized economies but even within free markets whether it's on like a layer one layer one or an application","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=830s"},{"start_seconds":839,"text":"there are very clearly certain behaviors that are beneficial for the community in protocol and certain behaviors that hurt it right and that comes down to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=839s"},{"start_seconds":846,"text":"incentives as Lisa mentioned earlier and in her previous talk as well so how can you carefully think about those incentives right now given that D5 seems","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=846s"},{"start_seconds":855,"text":"to be the biggest thing that has product Market fit and we still working on things like decentralized ID Financial incentives are the biggest thing that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=855s"},{"start_seconds":862,"text":"control behaviors on chain so who are the ones that are willing to provide liquidity who are the ones that are earning Rewards ultimately how do they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=862s"},{"start_seconds":869,"text":"use those rewards to distribute that across the ecosystem and vote in various governance um and the second point that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=869s"},{"start_seconds":876,"text":"I was trying to mention um was talking about um sorry what did you just mention at the end there surveillance governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=876s"},{"start_seconds":885,"text":"um I think about like decentralized ID um given that we still don't have the decentral ID and there's a lot of snonymous synonymous people that are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=885s"},{"start_seconds":894,"text":"online that makes this uh question even more challenging you know I think everyone has right to be pseudonymous and Anonymous especially when it comes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=894s"},{"start_seconds":901,"text":"to crypto and stuff that has uh when you're making strong claims and there's a lot of financial incentive that comes around this uh but still we need to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=901s"},{"start_seconds":909,"text":"allow individuals to build up that reputation and still have their voice heard regardless of how small or how big they are within the ecosystem if I if I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=909s"},{"start_seconds":916,"text":"may add to that I mean before that you also mentioned the book on surveillance capitalism it's 800 Pages who's get to decide do how do minorities also get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=916s"},{"start_seconds":923,"text":"represented that's why we need to ask ourselves this question um what who has an interest at stake not just who is a stakeholder which is easily but who has","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=923s"},{"start_seconds":932,"text":"an interest at stake who is affected by this and how are their rights being represented and in my mind if you want adoption you need to be able to project","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=932s"},{"start_seconds":940,"text":"trust right so you do your governance design and by showing your governance design where you show that all these interests are being represented you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=940s"},{"start_seconds":947,"text":"project trust and people will trust you and you can you know hope for uh for for adoption instead of just saying trust us","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=947s"},{"start_seconds":955,"text":"code is law because code is law is not always the case the the moment that you and I have a conflict even in a dowo context and the conf and the conflict is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=955s"},{"start_seconds":963,"text":"big enough if you say if you if you battle around 5 million 10 million 20 $50 million at some stage we will take it offchain if you will we will go to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=963s"},{"start_seconds":972,"text":"court right and so this there there is you cannot only rely on an old chain solution uh in my mind for governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=972s"},{"start_seconds":980,"text":"and we need to be able to build it such that it projects trust and still we have the interface with the offchain uh with with the offchain world yeah and another","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=980s"},{"start_seconds":987,"text":"thing I observed is most people most projects will you know launch a token and then governance is mostly an afterthought for them or they'll just slap it on that oh it's a governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=987s"},{"start_seconds":996,"text":"token and that's the main utility and I think people really need to step back and see how those things are actually kind of the same thing like if you talk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=996s"},{"start_seconds":1003,"text":"about the incentives within tokenomics those incentives float to how people vote and how people behave within the governance uh structures that exist on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1003s"},{"start_seconds":1010,"text":"Shane I I this a funny you mention this last year I spoke to a a team they were going to launch a well-known stable coin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1010s"},{"start_seconds":1017,"text":"you would know it and the guy says to me oh you do governance that's great uh we'll launch and then we'll give you a call we do governance and I said my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1017s"},{"start_seconds":1025,"text":"friend it's the other way around you first need to think about governance before you launch your stable coin and uh we had a at least a long Zoom call","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1025s"},{"start_seconds":1033,"text":"after that but that was that was they were too far in the process already to your point yeah all right so uh governance is um a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1033s"},{"start_seconds":1042,"text":"combination of both onchain and offchain mechanisms and when it comes to designing these systems then what is something that web 3 allows us to do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1042s"},{"start_seconds":1052,"text":"that you know prior to public blockchains existing we couldn't really do so so what do we really gain here from web 3 when it comes to governance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1052s"},{"start_seconds":1060,"text":"you want to start yeah sure so I think from a higher level when it comes to web through governance given how open things are you know you don't have people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1060s"},{"start_seconds":1068,"text":"talking in behind closed doors and deciding the fate of the entire thing you know maybe there are still certain situations where they have the power but at least they're having these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1068s"},{"start_seconds":1076,"text":"discussions and making these decisions in the open so that people that can at least respond to them and have that discussion in place and when you know go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1076s"},{"start_seconds":1084,"text":"a little bit further down and look towards stuff like proof of stake systems or when you delegate to them the like the ability to actually slash and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1084s"},{"start_seconds":1092,"text":"have them like lose their power if they behave in a way that doesn't fit with the IDE ideology of the broader ecosystem is very helpful um and I think these are just kind of the first places","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1092s"},{"start_seconds":1101,"text":"where we're seeing this happen um you know we'll probably talk more about ve later too is you know right now these individuals are locked um in most of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1101s"},{"start_seconds":1108,"text":"these projects but some places they allow you to leave your lock earlier um and to do that you often have to take a huge discount to um kind of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1108s"},{"start_seconds":1117,"text":"governance power and the value of your tokens that you've locked up and I think these are kind of these cool experiments of how do you actually Implement these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1117s"},{"start_seconds":1125,"text":"disincentives on chain as which is equally as important as incentivizing positive behavior so go I'll go back to governance again where it's two points","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1125s"},{"start_seconds":1132,"text":"it's decision decision making or making decisions executing decisions and signaling when it comes to blockchain itself self we can trust the decisions being made we won't say that oh the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1132s"},{"start_seconds":1141,"text":"election is fraudulent because we can't validate the people voting I think that's a big benefit of blockchain this the transparency and validity of data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1141s"},{"start_seconds":1149,"text":"and that's beautiful and that is the technology itself the part of signaling is a whole different ball game we talk about ve there's token curated registry","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1149s"},{"start_seconds":1156,"text":"that is really popular in 2019 there are a lot of different kind of lists that you could vote there are a lot of different ways to start signaling your interest one because we talking about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1156s"},{"start_seconds":1165,"text":"the future of of politics and future of protocol governance as well one thing that I would like to start throwing out there which is how can we leverage","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1165s"},{"start_seconds":1172,"text":"generative AI to help us to make these decisions so here's here's the context everything we're talking about right now is our quantitative governance we vote","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1172s"},{"start_seconds":1181,"text":"Yes or No we vote one or two we vote one to five whereas life is all qualitative it's about your opinions it's about your focus groups it's about your your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1181s"},{"start_seconds":1188,"text":"thoughts it's about all these little nuances that you can't distill to numbers so how can we get AI just in general to start aggregating everyone's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1188s"},{"start_seconds":1196,"text":"Collective opinions because you see so much of that in governance forums I really like governance forums because everyone has a say you list down you document it it's public everyone can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1196s"},{"start_seconds":1204,"text":"read how can we leverage this information this rich rich data of qualitative data of people's opinions thoughts and and thought processes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1204s"},{"start_seconds":1212,"text":"coming in and get that as part of governance can we start getting because life is not black and white life is not one or two can we use all these data we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1212s"},{"start_seconds":1220,"text":"aggregate them and show a a degree of how many people agree and how many people disagree and then what is the spectrum of the community's opin or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1220s"},{"start_seconds":1228,"text":"sentiment towards these specific this specific protocol or the specific governance proposals that we want to move forward and that can have that can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1228s"},{"start_seconds":1235,"text":"help us with much richer conversation because maybe all the way at the end are the minorities that their voices are not heard but at least that is being seen in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1235s"},{"start_seconds":1243,"text":"the spectrum that everyone is discussing and from there we can start cating and grouping things up in categories that can help us to get better ways of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1243s"},{"start_seconds":1250,"text":"signaling that then translates to the second part of governance which is decision- making I think these two goes hand in hand and blockchain technology is a technology to help us to get there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1250s"},{"start_seconds":1259,"text":"but it's not the b n all that's the only technology we need to use so while in web 3 especially of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1259s"},{"start_seconds":1267,"text":"course you know you see communities getting active by themselves as you just alluded to um I think this this analysis of behavior that I mentioned before can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1267s"},{"start_seconds":1276,"text":"also show us scenarios in where we can already predict collusion and so I think we need to also be uh mindful that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1276s"},{"start_seconds":1284,"text":"moment that uh we let communities run with things that that that you know companies have programmed people programs have put out there uh that we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1284s"},{"start_seconds":1292,"text":"need to sort of watch out that the fiduciary responsibility for uh for tokens that being moved around uh or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1292s"},{"start_seconds":1300,"text":"collusion or any other negative scenario is already based on the governance in the protocol sort of um I said that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1300s"},{"start_seconds":1307,"text":"can't that you can't do this based on what you have programmed there as well so I think it enables a lot a lot more and people can take that you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1307s"},{"start_seconds":1315,"text":"ecosystems can take new directions but at the same time there is a duty to watch out that uh these communities are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1315s"},{"start_seconds":1322,"text":"not being taken over by colluding parties to move it in a bad Direction let's say or abuse it in a certain uh in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1322s"},{"start_seconds":1329,"text":"a certain way and so it's just you know it it is um uh it is it is wonderful and you know promising but it can also be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1329s"},{"start_seconds":1338,"text":"can also be risky and if you one of those parties involved such a community and you see it taken in a direction that goes against you then again you feel you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1338s"},{"start_seconds":1346,"text":"feel basically scammed I think bribery is going to be a big thing that's both pros and cons in the blockchain space because when everything is is the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1346s"},{"start_seconds":1354,"text":"signaling is very obvious you know who is voting in this direction and you know who are the key decision makers it's a lot cheaper to bribe in that sense and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1354s"},{"start_seconds":1363,"text":"blockchain can be both pros and cons it's just a tool and tool is neutral you can use tools for good and tools for bad going back to the ve token model if I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1363s"},{"start_seconds":1370,"text":"can start identifying the top 20% of people with vested tokens and lock tokens that they can vote with higher vesting power or or Stakes then I can I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1370s"},{"start_seconds":1379,"text":"can bribe them much easier sure there's a different cost to that but it's all about coordination if I bribe everyone individually in this room versus just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1379s"},{"start_seconds":1387,"text":"bribing three of all of us on the stage here it might be more expensive but I know there's a higher level of guarantee that all of us will coordinate and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1387s"},{"start_seconds":1394,"text":"collude with a with a price compared to bribing everyone it's much cheaper but I have no guarantee that everyone's going to collude together and I think that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1394s"},{"start_seconds":1401,"text":"another risk that we are not seeing yet and that that is actually there's a risk that we are seeing yet which just not so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1401s"},{"start_seconds":1408,"text":"shown on chains data yet that blockchain can also bring about yeah and another Dynamic that we're seeing is you know most of the time we talk about governance whether it being Web Two web","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1408s"},{"start_seconds":1416,"text":"3 or nations it's like individual voters individual users individual investors but if you look at some of the ve ecosystem it's other protocols and Dows","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1416s"},{"start_seconds":1425,"text":"that are using this and if you look at other ecosystems as well like delegates have become a major Force so how does the Dynamics of who's the one that you're delegating to who are the major","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1425s"},{"start_seconds":1434,"text":"protocols or institutions that own these assets and how how do kind of their incentives play out within the governance structures as well is something that'll be like very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1434s"},{"start_seconds":1443,"text":"interesting to see and there are online dashboards right and applications that we can use for that yeah yeah it's very interesting in ve","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1443s"},{"start_seconds":1452,"text":"how governance itself is hyper financialized yeah right which is not always uh good as we mentioned so we're running out of time here perhaps a very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1452s"},{"start_seconds":1460,"text":"quick uh final notes um any thoughts on how you see the evolution of protocol politics","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1460s"},{"start_seconds":1468,"text":"um you know do you see them continuing to speedrun offchain governance systems and and kind of repeat history or do you see us maybe trying to take more of a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1468s"},{"start_seconds":1476,"text":"step back or are just some of your thoughts here all right I'll go first so I have bested interest in making sure that these Protocols are creating good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1476s"},{"start_seconds":1485,"text":"governance system my barriers that I'm facing is that these protocols that I'm working with they're like as as s mentioned yeah we we're think about governance later we need to coordinate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1485s"},{"start_seconds":1494,"text":"and centralize the decisions and we talk about governance a little bit later we'll promise everyone governance tokens and we promise promise everyone some governance functionalities but we're not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1494s"},{"start_seconds":1501,"text":"there yet and I I get it from a business perspective I know that's really important but it doesn't hit my bottom line it doesn't hit my p&l yet that's not something I want to think about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1501s"},{"start_seconds":1510,"text":"there's so many other things to think about as a startup so how do we find that fine balance is still something that I'm I'm working on and still figuring out how do I balance between","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1510s"},{"start_seconds":1518,"text":"that but I'm excited to see things change I'm I'm hopeful for the future yeah not to sound pessimistic but you know at the end of the day whether it's onchain it's still kind of people that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1518s"},{"start_seconds":1526,"text":"are making these decisions and you know our psychology and the way people interact isn't change just because of the infastructure thats out in but I do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1526s"},{"start_seconds":1535,"text":"think that because it is open and there because there are clear consequences to how people make decisions we're going to continuously experiment and be able to move forward and make progress yeah I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1535s"},{"start_seconds":1544,"text":"think also it's a bit of an uphill battle it's much better than five six seven years ago but it is it is still an uphill battle it comes too late Governor","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1544s"},{"start_seconds":1551,"text":"design need to be you know much earlier in the process So to avoid certain problems later on and I'm actually I'm in that sense optimistic because there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1551s"},{"start_seconds":1559,"text":"increasing awareness there increasing conversation around it so it's uphill but I I'm I'm I'm optimistic all right I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1559s"},{"start_seconds":1566,"text":"think we're all optimistic and that brings us to time actually guys so thank you all for really fascinating panel and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1566s"},{"start_seconds":1574,"text":"give it up please for the panelists thank you thanks nice","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1574s"},{"start_seconds":1586,"text":"discussion","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw&t=1586s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=rwv2Ufr6VJw","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/rwv2Ufr6VJw"}