{"id":"h29i__XeFSw","title":"TABASCO from Particle Network","description":"In this episode, host Altan Tutor (CEO of Nuffle Labs) and Michael Kelly (CPO of Open Forest Protocol) sit down with the Head of Developer Relations at Particle Network, TABASCO. Particle Network provides a Universal Accounts (UA) system that enables Web3 users to manage a single account, balance, and interaction point across multiple blockchains, achieving chain abstraction. This is made possible through the Particle Network Layer 1 (L1), which operates as an infrastructural layer, coordinating secure and trustless transactions across different blockchain ecosystems. Unlike traditional blockchains, Particle Network L1 focuses on unifying users and liquidity rather than serving as a platform for building applications.\n\nTakeaways\nTABASCO got interested in crypto at a young age and started trading when he was 15. \nHe built an application called Amity DeFi at the age of 16, which had thousands of users and allowed on-chain transactions on Discord. \nTABASCO joined Particle Network as a developer relations position and eventually became the lead of their developer relations team. \nParticle Network is an L1 chain that focuses on chain abstraction and universal accounts, aiming to improve user experience and solve the problem of fragmented UX in the crypto space. \nThe future-proof architecture of Particle Network allows for adaptability and interoperability with other account-level solutions, ensuring a seamless user experience. \nThe community should strive for unopinionated neutral infrastructure to avoid further fragmentation and create a unified ecosystem. Chain abstraction can be categorized into three layers: application layer, account layer, and blockchain layer. \nCollaboration is strong vertically within each layer, while competition and potential fragmentation exist horizontally between account layer solutions and blockchain layer solutions. \nThe goal of chain abstraction is to create chain-agnostic applications that allow users to interact with any blockchain without needing to know the underlying chains. \nIncentives for launching chain abstraction solutions include value creation through transaction fees and the shift towards quality-driven applications. \nThe market will reward applications that provide a seamless user experience and capture user value.\n\nChapters\n00:00 TABASCO's Journey into Crypto and Particle Network \n06:20 The Construction of Particle Network \n11:32 The Future-Proof Architecture of Particle Network \n17:14 The Importance of Adaptability and Interoperability \n24:58 Striving for Unopinionated Neutral Infrastructure \n30:43 Collaboration and Competition in the Chain Abstraction Stack \n35:27 Creating Chain-Agnostic Applications for a Seamless User Experience \n43:42 Incentives for Launching Chain Abstraction Solutions \n49:15 The Shift Towards Quality-Driven Applications in the Crypto Space\n\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nNEAR AI: https://near.ai/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near \nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\n#NEAR #nearprotocol #NEARAI","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-09-17T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/h29i__XeFSw/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"so at kind of the the top um of the funnel you have uh the application layer is like socket for a claster a gor basically things that are more developer faas um and then you have underneath that you have the account layer things like particle Network or blabs Arana also chain signatures have some overlap in this layer underneath that you have a somewhat more debated upon layer um which is something that you can call the blockchain layer nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstract.com for more information this is chain abstracted obviously it's it's a near podcast uh Michael and I do this um you know every week or so at this point today we're actually with scheduled to do three but we we we're not going to be able to do the third one uh because we have other to do but that's also a nuffle one so it's like I can't do this anymore in three hours but uh nice nice to have you yeah I appreciate it thanks for having me on um and yeah fact you guys are doing even just two in a day is insane um but I'm glad we had a chance to uh to get something together I've I was actually you know yesterday I was watching the podcast with um I think it was who was it from aor that you guys had on aor or and the cosmoem um uh I think it was is his name on Twitter zachi or something like that I'm correct um yeah that was I think one of the earlier episodes but I was watching that one um that was pretty good so I'm excited to get into it today I think um there's some pretty good questions that you sent me likewise yeah it was a funny one there because it's uh he has a different perspective on the world coming from Cosmos so I mean um but yeah that's cool but uh love to love to learn more about you I guess like how did you start um getting interested in crypto and then working in crypto yeah yeah for sure it's a good question um you know I first got into crypto and started kind of um you know I guess just playing around with the space when I was 15 and so that's when I kind of you know start trading and stuff like that I think it was actually the uh emergence in the pump of Dogecoin maybe three years ago or something like that four years ago that really like caught my attention and I was like well this is a great opportunity to make a lot of money so I wanted to mine Dogecoin which ended up being not a very good opportunity but it got me into the space and I I got really into the Dogecoin Community when I was um I didn't really have anything else to do I was doing remote school at the time because that was right after the P the pandemic and so I kind of gotone into the space and talked a lot in the Discord communities and um you know just kind of had a good time learning about what crypto was and like the trading aspect of it and stuff like that and eventually I decided to get into the more developer oriented side of web 3 um so I started building some of my own initial applications I had actually known some very rudimentary python um and so I I kind of went back and learned all the foundational programming languages again all out of the kind of goal of building something on chain and um then when I was 16 I did that I built an application called ID defi which I got lucky actually ended up being like at least for me as a you know being 16 uh a somewhat successful application I think I ended up with three or 4,000 users essentially it was basically bringing the ability to do onchain transactions on Discord so you could be on Discord you could have a wallet it was a custodial wallet but um you could do transactions you could send other people you could swap and airdrop and stuff like that and so it was it was a lot of fun it basically kind of added like a layer of interaction communities I think that type of interaction is more common place today especially with things like telegram Bots where it's there's a million products that do this but back then it was somewhat of a New Concept and um and I I spent a long time putting that together and the first implementations of it were were pretty terrible but it got better over time as I learned how to code better and stuff like that um and eventually uh it was probably you know three or four months after I turned 16 as soon as I turned 16 I had to get a job and this was a a uh an agreement that I had with my parents if I want to keep doing remote school and so um I had to get a job and the job that I chose was an inperson job uh changing tires at a discount tire that was 5 minutes away from me and so I did that for two or three days a week and and I was pretty miserable I hated it um I'm not a very athletic person so I I kind of knocked me out every single time and yeah you're just like repairing like holes of tires stuff like that and uh but I I had to do it otherwise I I didn't want to go back to imperson school because I didn't like that either and so I realized eventually I was like oh wait I'm like I'm building I'm spending most of my time outside of work building stuff in web 3 so why not I just applied to a bunch of web3 jobs I had no experience at that time but I applied to you know 100 200 jobs or something like that um I mean literally everything I could find on LinkedIn that I was not qualified for and eventually I got um I got a very entry-level developer relations position at an RPC provider and um ended up being there for about a year and a half I eventually went on to to lead their develop relations team for quite a while I think for about seven or eight months before I joined particle back in September or August so I've been at particle for about a year you're 18 well how old are you then I'm 18 I I'll be 19 in a few months damn son I didn't even I didn't even think that I that that was that's new info to me well that's that's great though I love it like props to you Ethan and and I think it's really it's really impressive how well you've been able to to climb into this space my first question was literally going to be have you ever worked a job that's not crypto so I guess your parents ruined the purity of saying uh no you've only been pure pure crypto but that's that's a really cool origin story yeah I mean it was you know if I had I think if I had worked at like a grocery store or something that I was probably more comfortable with that I didn't mind being at I probably would have not applied for a job in crypto because I would have just been like whatever I mean I don't mind doing this but it was because I hated changing tires so much that I decided to to give crypto a shot and apply for jobs because I was so desperate to get out of that that job um and so I mean it for some some capacity is a good thing but hopefully I I don't know maybe maybe ethereum and Bitcoin crashes and I end up there again but I think um I think it's been pretty good so far um but yeah I think it's right now I'm at around three years full-time in develop relations so yeah it's been uh it's been a lot of fun so far that's funny that's great man well uh I appreciate your everything so let's let's get into particle Network then but um how did how did that happen I guess like how did you just start working there what was the US card as a Deval or you know I I know that like when particle Network comes to mind I just think about you so like I that's that's kind of the like how did you how did you grab that uh that that role yeah you know I I when I was working at uh the RPC provider that I was at is called chain stack um when I was working there I was there uh you know at that point whenever I originally decided to move to particle I had been there for I think a year and a half and uh I didn't really want to move organizations but um I basically flew out to San Francisco and I met with my CEO um and uh you know I kind of was interested in the pitch of particle because I'd heard about particle a little bit before and at some events I'd heard about them and so I was like okay well you know I'll consider it and uh back back then even like you know the pitch was pretty similar to what it is today which is uh really the origin of like solving fundamental ux problems um and uh making it easier for people to get into web 3 and eventually use web 3 so starting with like the onboarding with social logins and stuff like that that has really been particle history for a long time um is getting people in through their Google account and Twitter account and stuff like that um and then evolving towards you know chain obstruction and account obstruction which is that deeper ux optimizations um you know being able to have a single balance across all chains and you know within just like the deeper account abstraction side of things you know all the the great benefits that come with that and so that really interested me because I I had been um like a little bit attached to account abstraction um I had been doing some research into it and um playing around with it and I really I was very um kind of captured by that type of of uh that part of the industry the more kind of like ux part of the industry and so I decided to um you know to kind of pull the trigger on that and to move over to particle specifically to build towards that goal of improved user experience and so that I mean like particle has been around I think for uh around three to four years at this point um during its entire lifespan it kind of started out as purely um social logins and that was kind of where it sat for a long time so just acting as infrastructure that gets you in through Google and Twitter and email and phone number whatever else may be um and then starting basically you know in the last um year to two years P kind of moved towards um implementing account ofra rtion and working really closely within the ERC 47 part of the ecosystem um so working with pomy doing a lot of its own account Kindra infrastructure and stuff like that and so um that actually is where we probably found most of our recent success was in account account abstraction specifically in kind of this flow where you have social logins that lead to Smart accounts that proved to be a pretty like big deal for a lot of people because you solve a lot of problems with that right you solve the onboarding problem and you solve the problem of um you know for example gasless transactions and needing to hold specific guest gas tokens and you know a million other things and so um that's kind of where where particle ended up um for quite a while and then basically starting in December November last of last year um that's where we started really pushing on chain abstraction um as sort of like the next step in the next evolution of a account abstraction and and our work in the um onboarding part of the space so um because like what you can kind of when you look at user experience I think typically the what I say is that like you know user experience it's it's very easy to create a great ux in the confines of a given application of a single application like you know ux in web 3 isn't really as broken some sometimes people will say it is because if you look at a single application if you totally ignore interoperability and like cross application you should a single application you can create pretty much like you can almost make web 3 invisible right on board the social login use account obstruction to remove gas fees and remove pop-ups and stuff like that um a lot of other kind of like abstractions at the application Level that can essentially give you the ability to use these applications and and in a lot of cases they can make it feel very almost indistinguishable from web 2 and the infrastructure is already there it's proven it works quite well um there are of course like you know rough edges to it but um within applications it's great but the larger issue in the space and there's a lot of things attached to this that maybe we can get into later um the larger issue in this space is the fact that at an ecosystem level ux is still terrible and it's like you know if I want to go to an application on chain a and then I want to go to another application on chain B I mean as you guys know very well um this experience is miserable for any users and so uh this is where um you know this is why really we decided to to start uh building genra infrastructure on top of our existing sack because um we felt like if you can solve that onboarding problem and you can provide that foundational ux technology for the applications and you can solve and and at least contribute to solving the problem of the ecosystem level ux then that's where you start to have some pretty massive change in terms of the types of applications that can built the type of actual consumer adop that you can see in the industry um and uh eventually just kind of like web 3 seeing it's it's pmf um you know in the broader kind of context of the internet and so um that's a little bit more about kind of our context and and how we've ended up where we're at I see um so how does how is particle Network constructed today is it I know you guys are building an L1 right uh what's the how do the construction look like and the other question is uh maybe this is something like um critical of the space but we're we're talking about like it's near does the same thing right it's an L1 that like trying to do chain abstraction but it's a chain itself right so how does that work like how do we like what what what how do you think about that yeah that's a that's a good question it's something that like we actually wrote we recently published a whole page on our website that's like the page is literally titled um why does particle Network need an L1 um which is like trying to justify you know like like why is it even an architectural component and basically like the way that that the architecture works is that um really the the core product here is not the L1 the L1 is uh essentially a coordination layer and it's it's a I'll get into like the specifics in a second but it's um at at the very standard level it's a way that you can coordinate and um sort of create consistency with smart accounts across different chains um but really the core product is a universal accounts so Universal accounts is something that we you know if you go through our Twitter you go through my Twitter um you'll kind of see as a common term because this is essentially it's sort of like a um uh at a foundation uses account abstraction to essentially give a user single balance they can use across all chains and so this is like the most basic way of understanding it Universal accounts are essentially just smart accounts that users can use uniformally across every application across every chain without any Bridge um so they have a single Consolidated balance everywhere and so um how does it actually work well we have an L1 that that drives a lot of this functionality the users in their accounts they still liveb on these external chains they still live on base and polygon and ethereum and whatever else may be um but the actual underlying coordination for the cross-chain transactions that these um that these uh Universal accounts execute um as well as the state of the accounts themselves is managed by the L1 so like there's kind of like two main problems that having a chain itself is solving especially with this type of uh architecture the first thing that you guys might be familiar with is within account abstraction specifically ERC 47 within the ethereum eosm there's a pretty big problem with cross chain um and or just like multi-chain in general because if I deploy a contract on one chain and then I deploy it on three other chains and I change the state or I I do some arbitrary State change on chain a let's say I add a module right or I change a signer or something like that and all of a sudden the state on chain a is now different from what I have on BC and d right so now now my smart account is it's totally different than the other three instances on these different evm chains and this is a problem because it means that there's no consistency across change especially whenever you're making updates to to this um arbitrary State and so the solution to this is kind of this idea of a key store Hub and this has been talked about a lot vitalica has talked about this um safe is doing some good work on this and so we're basically implementing um a key store Hub through the means of of um our blockchain which is essentially a way of having a single kind of source of Truth and shared state that is universal across all all deployments of the of the of the account and so if I deploy the account on five different evm chains I change um the signer on one chain we can actually using um the the kind of key store Hub on our chain we can identify that and reflect the changes on every other chain that is deployed on and so the state for the smart account is always consistent and so you fixed the multichain problem with smart accounts um and this is a pretty huge issue even though it might not seem like you know um like it's it's kind of a small thing in in the grand scope but this is like to to use AA cross chains this needs to be solved the other thing is um basically being able to coordinate transactions um with solvers that are Atomic and so um the way that we Bridge funds across chains is something that you know you guys also might be familiar with it's a very a cross style um solver based bridging mechanism where we essentially um have a transaction that the user wants to do we front them funds for that transaction the solver fronts the funds for that transaction they pay for the transaction and they pay themselves back using the funds and the origin chains and so if I want to buy an nft on base that costs $100 and I 50 on polygon and 50 on um you know ethereum then the solver will pay for that transaction and then pay itself back using the funds on polygon and ethereum and so this is like a relatively simple and this is right now the most common way of moving funds across chains especially in the chain of truction vertical because it's very fast and efficient and stuff like that um but our chain is actually responsible for coordinating these transactions with these solvers in a way that is atomic um and uh safe and verifiable and so we can actually um verify and settle these transactions on chain on on the L1 before we give it to the solvers and so it reduces risk um it uh makes the system more decentralized because you're not really relying on particle to be like some centralized coordinator of everything um and it allows us to actually um settle and verify the um the validity of transaction sequences before they get pushed um to to Sol version so this is uh essentially why we we have the L1 as a part of our architecture um we thought about other ways of doing it but every other way to some degree leads to more centralization um which is somewhat of a common theme we actually um talked about this a little bit um Alton and I did a live stream with um fluent the other day and we talked about on onchain versus offchain and so like chain instruction a lot of the time does lead to to sometimes centralization prom or moving things off chain um so we wanted to avoid that and reduce that as much as we could and so the L1 was a uh a mechanism for us to do that to some degree yeah what do you think about if if somebody did this in L2 what were the differences right I mean l1's are l1's are actually great like I mean we just been chatting with Michael because it's like in l1's you can you can control everything but you also as as a builder yourself right like part of network also the gases don't get anywhere like the gases are used in here um actually maybe it's the verain abstraction because you need to use the gasby to do something on another chain so you still have to sell on the token but um have you guys consider an L2 or like you know if you were to build this on an L2 like what what would be the differences for you guys I think you could probably build very similar functionality on an L2 um we specifically chose like an L1 is kind of air quotes we built a Cosmos app chain essentially we built a chain using the cosmos SDK um and it's evm compatible but uh that's essentially kind of the the core of of um what we did we like the cosmos SDK because you have a lot of flexibility there you can make it evm compatible um you also have access to IPC so you can do some really interesting things with that um and you just have a ton of customization flexibility with the actual architecture of the chain which for us is going to be really important especially when it comes to some of these um you know uh I guess more ambitious components that we're going to be implementing um and so we uh felt that that was the best uh kind of path to go a long time ago we had the idea of actually launching an L2 um it was going to be something that we we considered for quite a while um and uh was kind of a part of our original architecture back probably 1 year plus ago um but we decided to move to a cosmo appap train and that's been working out for us pretty well so far we're still a little bit away from mainnet um probably Q4 is kind of our our current date but um yeah I think uh we're pretty happy with that decision I think originally we're looking at like you know ZK EVMS and how do we kind of make this most efficient and uh you know the there's a pretty big overhead difference between launching an L2 um uh and launching an L1 I mean just like there's a lot more work involved typically with an L1 especially when it comes to Bo shopping validator sets and I mean all these different things it's it's pretty complicated um and uh it's just more involved typically but I think we've had a we've had a pretty good experience with it so far and um the the benefits that you get from using custom DEC have outweighed I think um the uh the drawbacks of the additional overhead um and so I think you know you could like function functionally you could build pretty similar um architecture on an L2 I think uh there probably be some differences in terms of you know security insurances and stuff like that but um I think overall uh yeah that we chose the L1 route um because the cosem and the cosmos is pretty strong Ethan um could you maybe talk a little bit about the future proof architecture of particle Network I I found that phrase actually interesting I think it's on the website but it's like chain abstraction has come around and everyone saying like oh wow all these things with gas fees and addresses and account names and everything we can innovate upon it immensely and and you know change the game for users I don't think many people have thought where does this go in the future if you run It Forward three years say and I I know that there was things listed in that architecture around like messaging bundling things like that so maybe you can just paint a picture of like what is a futureproof architecture on on particle Network yeah you know I think for us a very big important component of of how we build things is that it's very um it's very open to um structural changes and to um uh plugging different architectural um providers and stuff like that without really many changes to the protocol itself um and so we actually use for example um like one of the the original things that we proposed was something called um for the chain itself uh aggregated data availability so when we originally proposed this it was a little bit more of a controversial concept I think it's more normalized now like you have Manta that does multi- and stuff like that um but uh aggregated was essentially like looking at at this saying well we don't really feel comfortable especially when it comes to kind of like future proofing and reducing points of failure um we don't really feel comfortable using a single day layer and being completely reliant on that um for like the extent of our of our lifetime um as a provider and as you know within the train itself and so we built we we kind of proposed aggregated da which is like the ability to plug in any da provider and actually load balance between um requests and and uh and where you post data and so that was one thing and you know even like with our validator set we use a mixture of our own validators as well as um you know we've been doing a lot of work with the Babylon team and um allowing uh that validator set to um contribute to consensus to where we don't have to have a complete validator set that is totally economically secure that values the chain and so like from an architectural perspective on the Chain we have a few things that have really been designed around um reducing points of failure um and being able to plug in uh pretty much any other provider and have it just work from a more user perspective and and within the smart accounts themselves um we believe like ERC 437 to be a relatively longterm standard although Universal accounts can uh theoretically work with pretty much any account attraction standard um as long as it has like the really fundamental um components of account of traction and so if we move to like a protocol level AA then the universal accounts can to adapt for that really easily and it really won't disrupt things too much um and so we've kind of designed our architecture around adaptability as inevit y the landscape will change and better ux technologies will kind of you know be released but I think ideally Universal counsil will always be there as an option um and hopefully as a a somewhat of a a base layer um implementation where you know especially that applications and users and wallets potentially that want that functionality that want that balance consolidation which I believe will be most applications and most users especially as we get into more consumer onboarding um I think Universal accounts are going to be one of the main ways to do that um although of course and that's not to say Universal accounts are the only implementation that are going to be popular over a long term I think that there are many other fantastic projects that are building also at what I consider the account level um and uh they're doing a great job with this as well and so I think that probably what you're going to see is a number of account level Solutions um over the next few years that are adopted by users and applications and wallets um and uh ideally they're all pretty interoperable so if I go to an application that's using um Universal accounts or if I go to an application that's using you know I don't know or blabs or some other you know account level solution as a user it feels pretty similar to me um and if I want to switch wallets it feels pretty similar to me as well and so I think this is the ideal future and this is kind of how we're building towards that um what we're going to be doing eventually that's also like kind of I was actually talking about this in the um there's a channel on telegram chain abstracted nerds it's ran by the socket team and um I was talking about the importance of having unopinionated neutral infrastructure um for long-term sustainability and so what I mean what I mean by this is that basically having in this case an account level chain abration solution that is not clashing necessarily with other Solutions in the same space and so because as a user I don't the users don't care if they're using particle network if they're using you know Project A and B and C they just want to you they just want to use an application they they just want to access their balances and and have that be it um again same thing with like the chain that you use the the provider and the account level Su that you use should ultimately be up to either the wallet or the um the application that's being used and so that shouldn't affect end user experience and this is really important because one of the main like issues for me personally as well as just like the larger chain abstraction space has been well we're solving for fragmentation but what if we're introducing more fragmentation right now by just having a bunch of solutions that totally clash with each other and are not interoperable and so I think what's really important what we're also striving for is having this unin unended infrastructure where as a user I can go to an application that's using particle I can go to an application us using pretty much any other account level project and the experience is the same for me the only difference is basically that the those fundamental Tech like technical differences and different capabilities that is more developer facing so it's a very similar philosophy to the whole like why change truction is exists in the first place um and this kind of how we're building uh and and positioning Universal accounts is to be neutral infrastructure that fits quite well with the rest of the ecosystem and so as things start to scale and as more users come into the space um we can uh kind of be prepared for that and you know it won't become a conflict of interest where like we're trying to get everybody on like our standard but like there's a bunch of other standards and like different ways of looking at it um and so that's at least um a little you know more about how we're looking at the Future Okay um what are the things when you look at the landscape today I know we we talked about the you know and the end of team did a mapping um how do you see all of that talk to each other so what are the things that the community should do um to be able to not fragment further but kind of unite everything right because when I look at that I'm like oh I see the same thing as like the L1 L2 landscape um you know there's a lot of stuff um what what what should be the mental model model for that yeah so I think the way that that we kind of have defined it you know there's kind of like two ways to look at the chain abstraction stack first of all um the cake framework was of course the most popular one although sometimes times I'm recently I've been more hesitant to use it because what I've noticed is that um it's actually been creating some confusion with people where they they see it as um too generalized or it's a little bit unclear what the purpose of chain obstruction is um and so I think it was somebody from anoma on Twitter yesterday and they're like I still don't know what chain obstruction is and I there I somebody commented I think it was um uh colani Network and and they triy to give him a definition and he was like I feel like chain abstraction is just some rehashing of interoperability and a can abstraction intense and I was like like I reply all was like I think you're kind of conflating the cake framework with with what really is a simple goal of chain abstraction and so the way that I found to be most useful of looking at the chain abration stack is basically in three different layers that make it a little bit easier to really understand um how everything's going to fit together and so these three layers are are essentially categorizations of chain abstraction Solutions themselves so at kind of the top um of the funnel you have uh the application layer um and so this is going to be things like socket or claster agoric basically things that are more developer facing solutions that integrate at the application layer so actually give developers the ability to programmatically compose and exist across multiple chains simultaneously there's a lot of solutions that are building towards this it's basically giving developers the ability to create chain ostic applications right which I think I think near has also been talking a lot about this idea of chain ostic applications recently as well which I've I'm a big fan of this concept because I think giving developers the ability to create really unique experiences that are that can basically stand across any blockchain and not really needing to as a developer Deploy on different chains or like um it's right now working across chains as a developers is uh pretty complicated and so these Solutions B basically will reduce that complexity and allow for experiences that can exist across any chain in the ecosystem depending on what the needs are and um there's no there's no um complexity associated with that and so yeah socket agoric um even change signat to some degree and many other Solutions are building at this layer um and then you have underneath that you have the account layer so this is basically giving users a single balance that you can use everywhere um and so this is things like particle Network or blabs Arana um uh one balance to some degree um also chain signatures have some overlap in this layer and so this is um essentially like the more user facing part of the stock the account layer it's what users will interface with directly to have um this property of balance consolidation everywhere underneath that you have uh more debated upon layer um which is something that you can call the blockchain layer and so this is the third and final one which is things like polygon agare or um optimism super chain uh zync elastic chain you know like basically rollup clusters I think is a way that they roll up defined it um or chain collectives or whatever you want to call it um groups of chains that basically share um share some properties underneath kind of some some larger infrastructural umbrella like the AG for example and so if you have these three layers of basically how you approach chain abstraction the way that I see it is that you have a lot of collaboration vertically so vertically there's no con like as a as a user I actually don't know the difference if I'm using particle and claster or particle in agoric or particle in socket because it's a that's a very background thing and and same thing ideally if I'm using socket and particle and or blabs or whatever it may be like the experience is very similar across these so vertically in this stack of those three layers there's a lot of collaboration and so you can work very closely with these teams across the stack and um I don't really think there's ever going to be fragmentation there because there there each part of the stack is solving a different part of the problem and there's there's very little overlap between these parts of the problem they exist in isolation and so each of these providers are solving those problems distinctly and I don't really think there going to be fragmentation vertically I think that there will be competition and potentially fragmentation horizontally so what I mean by this is that specifically between I think especially a layer and blockchain layer Solutions between application layer Solutions I don't know I think it's that that's also because it's so application specific I'm not too worried about that but I think as I mentioned a moment ago the most fragmentation that you're going to see in the most competition is going to be um between um account layer Solutions and between blockchain layer Solutions um I think that uh the biggest risk is going to be between account level Solutions um in terms of uh creating more fragmentation because uh ultimately like you know even just now like if an application is using one SDK versus another and another as long as it's just doing something for me in the background I don't really care too much about it but if I'm using one account standard versus another account standard and then three or four others then this affects me as a user because now I need to migrate funds or like each of them are are totally different different wallets stuff like that and so I think the important thing will be that there is some degree of I think the market will move us towards this direction but I think most account layer solutions that are successful will have some degree of interoperability between them buil in um or they're all just going to be neutral providers that are compatible um with with accounts uh across any application and so there's no need to migrate or manage different accounts managers things like that um I think the migration piece is really going to be the biggest point of fragmentation the requirement for user to move across different account layer Solutions um and move their funds across them I think is going to be uh where the most this fragmentation comes from um and so solving this is going to take some time but I think that the market will reward providers that take steps to be more interoperable with one another and so ideally think what we're going to see is probably three to four winners at this at this layer um that end up materializing and being popular across the stack and developers and wallets and what not will choose whatever account layer solution is best based upon maybe whether or not it it use Smart accounts or you know uh signature properties do you only need to sign once do you need to sign for every Transaction what are the the the cross chain mechanisms look like do you use solvers are you using a more traditional bridging mechanism I mean these are kind of fundamental architectural things I think um the market will will optimize for but um I think that's kind of how I view the stack and and competition between it um most important kind of component of this is that within this kind of multi-layer three- layer stack everything is very collaborative vertically um and competitive um horizontally which I think is actually a good thing and it's quite healthy for the space that would be a pretty cool diagram do you guys I don't know if you guys have created that but but it might be the visual I think would go along way for for Outsiders to to kind of be able to put the pieces of it together and kind of see where we're going um I like the way you phrase that in terms of there's a lot of competing Visions for chain abstraction not all of them are going to win but the more collaborative ones are are the ones that are best positioned I think what I always find myself thinking when you when you just kind of went through that that whole stack is just like what maybe and this is more for I guess the audience what is it that everyone sees at the end of the tunnel that's incentivizing all of these people to launch all of these products and companies to try to solve chain abstraction like what what is the best case scenario of where this goes for crypto in in your understanding yeah there's a that's a good question there's a lot of moving parts to that um I think that uh first of all you kind of mentioned something I want to uh touch on just briefly which is uh why are all these providers like what are the incentives really for all these providers to um to launch really solution and so I think this this is sort of an interesting conversation because what's probably going to end up happening is a lot of these Tain exraction providers of these different parts of the stacker are just basically additional toll booths that eer goes through and so this is a you know like this is in terms of how this impact user experience I mean of course adding more and more like taking my cut from like providing my services it it definitely impacts things a little bit um I think that's how you're going to see a lot of the value creation within these projects go is that the you know there's going to be some slight fee on the transactions done by application Level solution and you know maybe account level Solutions will take small fees on on transactions or some there's some way of extracting value throughout that process right um which I think is you know there's a debate that to be had there of like how many toll boosts can we really have infrastructurally until it's just like we're bombarding users with just taking value at every single like just extracting as much value from users we as we can um so that's that's one point that's that's interesting that you brought up in terms of like the end result for users I think that there's there's kind of two components this that are going to really important the first is just from a purely user experience perspective like the end goal is that as a user I should be able to go to any application and use it and not know the chain that I'm using um like I by default I shouldn't be required to know the chains that I'm interacting with I should just use the application and then that's it as a user I should have no concept of the underlying blockchains of these applications um now this is also this property is highly debated on Twitter um it's how should should we really hide this information from users and how how practical is this and stuff like that that's why was smiling I was like H yeah I agree with you but it's just uh like how do we do let's say Michael launches a chain and it's a rock chain how do we know that it's not a rock chain and by the way there's an app that rugs everyone right so um that's the that's still the that's an actually interesting point like it's it's abstract but um have you seen interesting have you seen anything there that like is could be done on the wallet level or um you know is there something that you would say like oh it would be actually awesome if somebody built this on partly Network when we go live yeah I think like in terms of reducing this risk specifically um I think a lot of it is going to just come down to trusting applications and so applications that are trustworthy are going to ultimately win in the market um under this these conditions and I think that I'm sure there will be some applications that you interact with that are interacting with some rug chain or they have some malicious thing going on in the background and you know you're just going to have to kind of weed those out or have some mechanism of identifying that um I think there was one idea from I believe it was socket that I thought was quite interesting where it's like w wallets or applications or something probably wallets they have like Risk scores for the transactions that you're executing so like if you have a sequence of transactions it it'll like look at those transactions to see what chains are being interacted with and then before you confirm it'll say here's like the risk assessment of this transaction it's really high right now because you're interacting with a chain that has um you know five alltime transactions on it and so you want to be wary of that but even that like I think that's a great idea in terms of like like reducing the risk but I think any any information that you give users about this is going to make it difficult for them because at the end of the day a lot of users especially the users that we're targeting here um you know they have no idea what any of this means ideally um like they don't even risk scores I think is might be a little bit too much for them um I mean these are General web 2 users here and you know what works best for them is the absolute simplest least cognitively demanding path possible and to achieve that there has to be some degree of trust between a user and the ultimately the application that they're using otherwise we have to give them some information and hope that they will act upon that information and I think that's like I I think in the space today a lot of people overestimate the like ability for most people to do this for themselves and to make decisions based on their own security and based on information that's present to them um when it comes to to things like transactions uh it's it's a lot that we're asking for people and so I think if you look at it from the perspective that you know there's going to be a new system of applications that are most popular that's like most people are going to use applications that are established in the market um and uh have make responsible decisions about the chains that they're interacting with and I think that's going to reduce the risk but there definitely will be some security considerations in terms of um you know H how are we handling that for for newer users I think the important component of this property of like like hiding the end chain from the from the user making to to where they they aren't aware of this I think is the the caveat that um this isn't forc and so this is really important because as a user and this is like a big concern that a lot of people have on Twitter is that well hold on like chains have Vibes and I care about the Vibes that these chains have and I really uh I'm quoting somebody that that famously said this on Twitter and it's it's talked about a lot which is that like I want to be aware of the chains that I have because I I I care about the properties of these chains all these different things and so like I understand that but I think that that's fine like if Crypton native people want to have that access to that information they want to act upon the information of the chains that they're using where they hold funds and absolutely like I mean chain abstraction shouldn't take that away from people like the abstraction and the removal of this information of the chains that you're using should not be forced it should be an option it should be by the default but if I want to access the information I can um I think that the idea that most people will want to see the ch that they're using um in my opinion I think is is not going to be the case uh same way like you know if if we all of a sudden Force everybody to know what cloud provider every website that they use is is built on it's like nobody doesn't know what to do with that information or how to like like you know are we all of a sudden going to start doing research into what cloud provider has the most secure um like server handling and the most distribution are they using bare metal or are they I mean what like nobody's going to do this research and nobody cares about this so I think that this is um going to be a similar thing with crypto and and with like blockchain specifically they're going to turn into sort of like a cloud provider where most people are not going to care about it if you if it's really important to you and and your uh feeling of control then absolutely they should have access to that information um so I think that's like from a user experience perspective the optimal outcome is going to be something where um they don't need to know what chain that they're using um they can just use applications I think from a market perspective which is actually more interesting to me than the ux piece I think from a market perspective for to see a pretty massive shift in uh how applications are built right and so I I actually I wrote a short Twitter article about this um a little while back but there's this argument that's made a lot of the time which is we don't need more infrastructure we need apps where are the apps like we just need more apps we need people to build apps and you know it's like I agree like definitely but right now within the market the incentives are really not there to to create truly Innovative applications most people stick to creating easy um applications that still capture value so forking existing applications or building um you know sometimes half-baked things for specific ecosystems because people use that out of convenience because most users today uh in a lot of cases are captured out of convenience because they're siloed so you know if I have liquidity on I don't know cookie chain like some random Niche chain and you know there's 10,000 users on this chain um and I launch a deck for this chain that's the only decks on this chain that but of course I'm going to I've just captured the value of everybody on this chain because otherwise they have to Bridge and do all these things and and by default they're siloed into the cem and so if I can just simply Fork unit Swap and you know add a different logo to it and then deploy it here then I capture a lot of value so really the incentives today are not aligned with developers building Innovative applications but and a lot of this is due to the fact that users are siloed and so all of a sudden what we're going to see hopefully is that with chain abstraction we're going to have this sudden shift where users are no longer siloed and users are ackn stick to the specific chain that they're using and so there is no there's no more I'm using this out of convenience everything to end users is a choice based on application quality not convenience so I think this this small change is going to have pretty massive impacts to the overall ecosystem it's the idea that as a as an application as a developer I can no longer just build something that is lazy or that is half-baked because I'll still get users because I'm deploying it into a few different ecosystems I I am forced Now to create high quality applications with product Market fit that genuinely attract users otherwise I'll fail as as an organization and I won't actually generate any revenue and so the competition in the market now will reward Innovative applications because users are much more opinionated based upon quality and not based upon the convenience of wherever they have their funds located right so I think this change in users opinion what they optimize for within their experience and ultimately looking for quality over convenience I think this will move the the industry in a way where this whole we just need more apps is no longer going to be really a thing that people say because people will build apps because that's where the money is at that's how you generate Revenue at this point that isn't really the case today in a lot in a lot of scenarios um and so I think that uh with chain abstraction hopefully we're going to see that shift and that will be the most impactful thing because we're going to see the agnos ification of users from chains which will impact the market make things more competitive allow applications to really create more truly Innovative things and capture um user value from that um and from user experience perspective things are much more simplified they one more accessible for web 2 users and in total you have this hopefully um uh very new type of experience where we have great applications pmf applications as well as users that have um a lot of flexibility there and so maybe I'm a little bit over optimistic about about everything but I think um it's interesting way of looking at it so so kind of to summarize you're saying there's not going to be any more copy pasta hopefully yeah we'll see yeah yeah well yeah there's there's always going to be copy Buster right but it's just that like if you even think about it the person that does it like pump. fun for example I mean it is a user app I mean we can discuss the utility of it but um it is the first kind of app that it does and people try to Fork it and nobody was able to Value capture as much as they did like Unis swap is the same like it's a first amm built on on ethereum and then people forked it and then devalued and the other ones that to take the took is not the same the the problem with this is like maybe I I'll ask this question on the developer side is you know if you come into the space um you you see these massive rounds right like so you saw like the with the last I don't know quarter 2 three you're like oh like bar chain race 100 million like store 140 like and then you look at maybe it's just one example of pulley Market but the rest is kind of like very hard to find um applications that raise a lot of money and you as a builder I was like I'm going to build W one too cuz you know it's it's just seems like I'm I'm more likely to Value capture and when you go to VCS and other people they also tend to take a infrastructure bet rather than a at BET right so like even in chanted sture they more likely to power or invest into into a company that does TR abstraction than the app so like what should happen there for this to kind of switch because like I've tried to build um you can actually build a very fee generating business uh in crypto just doing apps because like it's just a numbers game you build you build you build you build and there's something that's going to like stick with the users even though you have like 5,000 users you can actually generate more than a web 2 app because you have this like fee structure that you can put in um but like in your case like how do we switch this developer mentality uh from from this like let's build infrastructure to um you know let's build apps I think a lot of it's going to come from a cultural change in terms of investing strategy um and I think that there there has to be some cut off for investing in more infra there's there's a point in which it's super redundant and eventually there's not much more value to capture there like I don't know like I mean you can only launch tokens and whatever build more infrastructure for so long like you know there's there's a limitation to it at some point and so I think that especially once uh these incentives sort shift and uh the viability and and uh really the the you know the the push uh for many users to create applications that are are optimized for Quality I think as that changes hopefully what I would expect is that the VC sentiment and the investing strategy um will shift a little bit slowly towards applications especially if there's a lot more more than just poly Market that end up actually generating real value because you know if we start to see this the shift of clearly infrastructure is um you know losing its momentum in terms of like we we were kind of hitting our limit there but all of a sudden now okay what we're seeing that applications are starting to proliferate a little bit more and you know maybe there's like two or three examples now of like good large applications that are generating a lot of value rather than just one or two um I think that that should hopefully cause a change in sentiment and of course if if VCS and investors if they move towards applications then that's where developers will go naturally but also some of this comes down to like you know a big b like Band-Aid for this right now has been the app chain thesis of like okay well we can bu applications but they're also chains and so then you get to like you know sort of loop pull it and like you're also launching a chain at the same time but you're building an application and So like um you know you still get to capture some value in that sense and so I think that's been the strategy for many but that's that's probably a reason why so many are launching app chains right now is just purely because of the Optics but I think that um uh of course there's no guarantee that sentiment will shift but I do think that we're going to start like you know overall investors are going to start realizing especially as we start hitting the cap with things like chain abstraction and other like fundamental Technologies I don't know how how much more you can go N I think infrastructure will always be a vertical that is invested in I mean there's always room to to improve of course but ideally applications in terms of value capture in terms of of um opportunity will outweigh um that of of infrastructure I think it already does but I think importantly people should to realize this as more applications start to um start to proliferate especially with the implementation of CH instruction I think I think it Mak sense too in a sense of like if you went back two years and you said build me a ticketing dap that we can Implement at concerts and you think about all the friction involved in your chain your gas fee uh getting money into the ticketing dap like moving moving the potential nft to another chain and if you say Okay three years later we've we've solved all those problems so now your ticketing dap 2.0 can run on one wallet across chains it can be connected to an on or off ramp and it's able to go I think like I think that makes sense at least to me of just how this space builds out because then the incentive says okay who can build the most creative ticketing dap now that we've solved for all of the kind of unsexy uh pain in the ass points to even use it in the first place right yeah you know whoever who can create the best ticking application that gets adopted the most because it has the best user experience and you know the best um under features yeah exactly yeah and like that's what is going to win ultimately it's it's it's about quality right and so I think you know that factor will hopefully and just like a just kind of a I think almost like a a free marketization of web 3 where like web 3 moves far into more like a traditional Market um where uh quality is optimized rather than than kind of like it's a little bit convoluted right now how it all functions where it's not really like a traditional Market in that sense where like everything is um highly competitive and quality optimized but but um I I agree I think we're going to start seeing that pretty soon you want to wrap up all ton yeah I think it's oh it's actually one minute away yeah it's nice to nice to chat with Ethan what is the if somebody comes in and watches this podcast what is the one thing that you you would want to tell folks uh it could be about yourself it could be about parlan network uh anything that that comes to mind um M obstruction is inevitable uh follow me on Twitter at theask web 3 I post a lot about chain exraction um and we also do post on our main Twitter particle NWR kit we're going to be launching Main and Universal accounts um in the next quarter or two and um the space is speeding up really quickly keeping ey on chain of traction and um yeah PR really appreciate you guys having me on I think those are some great questions and kind of got into the weeds there so um yeah I'm looking forward to uh to the episode and of course um yeah just keep up with chain oftion we'll stay on the lookout for you Ethan you're rising star in web so we appreciate the time and uh yeah good luck with everything thank guys appreciate you guys","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:33:14.358Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":0,"text":"so at kind of the the top um of the funnel you have uh the application layer is like socket for a claster a gor basically things that are more developer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=0s"},{"start_seconds":8,"text":"faas um and then you have underneath that you have the account layer things like particle Network or blabs Arana also chain signatures have some overlap","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=8s"},{"start_seconds":16,"text":"in this layer underneath that you have a somewhat more debated upon layer um which is something that you can call the blockchain layer nothing we say here is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=16s"},{"start_seconds":25,"text":"investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstract.com","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=25s"},{"start_seconds":33,"text":"for more information this is chain abstracted obviously it's it's a near podcast uh Michael and I do this um you know every week or so at this point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=33s"},{"start_seconds":42,"text":"today we're actually with scheduled to do three but we we we're not going to be able to do the third one uh because we have other to do but that's also a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=42s"},{"start_seconds":50,"text":"nuffle one so it's like I can't do this anymore in three hours but uh nice nice to have you yeah I appreciate it thanks for having me on um and yeah fact you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=50s"},{"start_seconds":58,"text":"guys are doing even just two in a day is insane um but I'm glad we had a chance to uh to get something together I've I was actually you know yesterday I was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=58s"},{"start_seconds":66,"text":"watching the podcast with um I think it was who was it from aor that you guys had on aor or and the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=66s"},{"start_seconds":73,"text":"cosmoem um uh I think it was is his name on Twitter zachi or something like that I'm correct um yeah that was I think one of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=73s"},{"start_seconds":82,"text":"the earlier episodes but I was watching that one um that was pretty good so I'm excited to get into it today I think um there's some pretty good questions that you sent me likewise yeah it was a funny","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=82s"},{"start_seconds":90,"text":"one there because it's uh he has a different perspective on the world coming from Cosmos so I mean um but yeah","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=90s"},{"start_seconds":98,"text":"that's cool but uh love to love to learn more about you I guess like how did you start um getting interested in crypto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=98s"},{"start_seconds":106,"text":"and then working in crypto yeah yeah for sure it's a good question um you know I first got into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=106s"},{"start_seconds":113,"text":"crypto and started kind of um you know I guess just playing around with the space when I was 15 and so that's when I kind of you know start trading and stuff like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=113s"},{"start_seconds":123,"text":"that I think it was actually the uh emergence in the pump of Dogecoin maybe three years ago or something like that four years ago that really like caught","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=123s"},{"start_seconds":132,"text":"my attention and I was like well this is a great opportunity to make a lot of money so I wanted to mine Dogecoin which ended up being not a very good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=132s"},{"start_seconds":140,"text":"opportunity but it got me into the space and I I got really into the Dogecoin Community when I was um I didn't really have anything else to do I was doing remote school at the time because that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=140s"},{"start_seconds":147,"text":"was right after the P the pandemic and so I kind of gotone into the space and talked a lot in the Discord communities","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=147s"},{"start_seconds":154,"text":"and um you know just kind of had a good time learning about what crypto was and like the trading aspect of it and stuff like that and eventually I decided to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=154s"},{"start_seconds":162,"text":"get into the more developer oriented side of web 3 um so I started building some of my own initial applications I had actually known some very rudimentary","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=162s"},{"start_seconds":170,"text":"python um and so I I kind of went back and learned all the foundational programming languages again all out of the kind of goal of building something","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=170s"},{"start_seconds":176,"text":"on chain and um then when I was 16 I did that I built an application called ID defi which I got lucky actually ended up","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=176s"},{"start_seconds":184,"text":"being like at least for me as a you know being 16 uh a somewhat successful application I think I ended up with three or 4,000 users essentially it was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=184s"},{"start_seconds":193,"text":"basically bringing the ability to do onchain transactions on Discord so you could be on Discord you could have a wallet it was a custodial wallet but um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=193s"},{"start_seconds":202,"text":"you could do transactions you could send other people you could swap and airdrop and stuff like that and so it was it was a lot of fun it basically kind of added like a layer of interaction communities","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=202s"},{"start_seconds":210,"text":"I think that type of interaction is more common place today especially with things like telegram Bots where it's there's a million products that do this but back then it was somewhat of a New","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=210s"},{"start_seconds":218,"text":"Concept and um and I I spent a long time putting that together and the first implementations of it were were pretty terrible but it got better over time as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=218s"},{"start_seconds":225,"text":"I learned how to code better and stuff like that um and eventually uh it was probably you know three or four months","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=225s"},{"start_seconds":233,"text":"after I turned 16 as soon as I turned 16 I had to get a job and this was a a uh an agreement that I had with my parents if I want to keep doing remote school","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=233s"},{"start_seconds":241,"text":"and so um I had to get a job and the job that I chose was an inperson job uh changing tires at a discount tire that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=241s"},{"start_seconds":249,"text":"was 5 minutes away from me and so I did that for two or three days a week and and I was pretty miserable I hated it um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=249s"},{"start_seconds":256,"text":"I'm not a very athletic person so I I kind of knocked me out every single time and yeah you're just like repairing like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=256s"},{"start_seconds":264,"text":"holes of tires stuff like that and uh but I I had to do it otherwise I I didn't want to go back to imperson school because I didn't like that either and so I realized eventually I was like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=264s"},{"start_seconds":272,"text":"oh wait I'm like I'm building I'm spending most of my time outside of work building stuff in web 3 so why not I just applied to a bunch of web3 jobs I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=272s"},{"start_seconds":280,"text":"had no experience at that time but I applied to you know 100 200 jobs or something like that um I mean literally everything I could find on LinkedIn that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=280s"},{"start_seconds":287,"text":"I was not qualified for and eventually I got um I got a very entry-level developer relations position at an RPC","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=287s"},{"start_seconds":295,"text":"provider and um ended up being there for about a year and a half I eventually went on to to lead their develop relations team for quite a while I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=295s"},{"start_seconds":304,"text":"for about seven or eight months before I joined particle back in September or August so I've been at particle for about a year you're 18 well how old are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=304s"},{"start_seconds":312,"text":"you then I'm 18 I I'll be 19 in a few months damn son I didn't even I didn't even think that I that that was that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=312s"},{"start_seconds":319,"text":"new info to me well that's that's great though I love it like props to you Ethan and and I think it's really it's really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=319s"},{"start_seconds":327,"text":"impressive how well you've been able to to climb into this space my first question was literally going to be have you ever worked a job that's not crypto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=327s"},{"start_seconds":335,"text":"so I guess your parents ruined the purity of saying uh no you've only been pure pure crypto but that's that's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=335s"},{"start_seconds":342,"text":"really cool origin story yeah I mean it was you know if I had I think if I had worked at like a grocery store or something that I was probably more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=342s"},{"start_seconds":350,"text":"comfortable with that I didn't mind being at I probably would have not applied for a job in crypto because I would have just been like whatever I mean I don't mind doing this but it was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=350s"},{"start_seconds":359,"text":"because I hated changing tires so much that I decided to to give crypto a shot and apply for jobs because I was so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=359s"},{"start_seconds":366,"text":"desperate to get out of that that job um and so I mean it for some some capacity is a good thing but hopefully I I don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=366s"},{"start_seconds":375,"text":"know maybe maybe ethereum and Bitcoin crashes and I end up there again but I think um I think it's been pretty good so far um but yeah I think it's right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=375s"},{"start_seconds":383,"text":"now I'm at around three years full-time in develop relations so yeah it's been uh it's been a lot of fun so far","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=383s"},{"start_seconds":390,"text":"that's funny that's great man well uh I appreciate your everything so let's let's get into particle Network then but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=390s"},{"start_seconds":399,"text":"um how did how did that happen I guess like how did you just start working there what was the US card as a Deval or you know I I know that like when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=399s"},{"start_seconds":408,"text":"particle Network comes to mind I just think about you so like I that's that's kind of the like how did you how did you grab that uh that that role yeah you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=408s"},{"start_seconds":417,"text":"know I I when I was working at uh the RPC provider that I was at is called chain stack um when I was working there I was there uh you know at that point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=417s"},{"start_seconds":426,"text":"whenever I originally decided to move to particle I had been there for I think a year and a half and uh I didn't really want to move organizations but um I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=426s"},{"start_seconds":434,"text":"basically flew out to San Francisco and I met with my CEO um and uh you know I kind of was interested in the pitch of particle because I'd heard about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=434s"},{"start_seconds":442,"text":"particle a little bit before and at some events I'd heard about them and so I was like okay well you know I'll consider it and uh back back then even like you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=442s"},{"start_seconds":451,"text":"the pitch was pretty similar to what it is today which is uh really the origin of like solving fundamental ux problems um and uh making it easier for people to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=451s"},{"start_seconds":459,"text":"get into web 3 and eventually use web 3 so starting with like the onboarding with social logins and stuff like that that has really been particle history for a long time um is getting people in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=459s"},{"start_seconds":467,"text":"through their Google account and Twitter account and stuff like that um and then evolving towards you know chain obstruction and account obstruction which is that deeper ux optimizations um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=467s"},{"start_seconds":476,"text":"you know being able to have a single balance across all chains and you know within just like the deeper account abstraction side of things you know all the the great benefits that come with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=476s"},{"start_seconds":484,"text":"that and so that really interested me because I I had been um like a little bit attached to account abstraction um I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=484s"},{"start_seconds":492,"text":"had been doing some research into it and um playing around with it and I really I was very um kind of captured by that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=492s"},{"start_seconds":498,"text":"type of of uh that part of the industry the more kind of like ux part of the industry and so I decided to um you know to kind of pull the trigger on that and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=498s"},{"start_seconds":507,"text":"to move over to particle specifically to build towards that goal of improved user experience and so that I mean like particle has been around I think for uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=507s"},{"start_seconds":514,"text":"around three to four years at this point um during its entire lifespan it kind of started out as purely um social logins","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=514s"},{"start_seconds":522,"text":"and that was kind of where it sat for a long time so just acting as infrastructure that gets you in through Google and Twitter and email and phone number whatever else may be um and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=522s"},{"start_seconds":531,"text":"starting basically you know in the last um year to two years P kind of moved towards um implementing account ofra","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=531s"},{"start_seconds":539,"text":"rtion and working really closely within the ERC 47 part of the ecosystem um so working with pomy doing a lot of its own account Kindra infrastructure and stuff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=539s"},{"start_seconds":546,"text":"like that and so um that actually is where we probably found most of our recent success was in account account abstraction specifically in kind of this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=546s"},{"start_seconds":555,"text":"flow where you have social logins that lead to Smart accounts that proved to be a pretty like big deal for a lot of people because you solve a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=555s"},{"start_seconds":562,"text":"problems with that right you solve the onboarding problem and you solve the problem of um you know for example gasless transactions and needing to hold specific guest gas tokens and you know a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=562s"},{"start_seconds":571,"text":"million other things and so um that's kind of where where particle ended up um for quite a while and then basically starting in December November last of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=571s"},{"start_seconds":579,"text":"last year um that's where we started really pushing on chain abstraction um as sort of like the next step in the next evolution of a account abstraction and and our work in the um onboarding","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=579s"},{"start_seconds":587,"text":"part of the space so um because like what you can kind of when you look at user experience I think typically the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=587s"},{"start_seconds":595,"text":"what I say is that like you know user experience it's it's very easy to create a great ux in the confines of a given","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=595s"},{"start_seconds":602,"text":"application of a single application like you know ux in web 3 isn't really as broken some sometimes people will say it is because if you look at a single","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=602s"},{"start_seconds":611,"text":"application if you totally ignore interoperability and like cross application you should a single application you can create pretty much like you can almost make web 3 invisible","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=611s"},{"start_seconds":620,"text":"right on board the social login use account obstruction to remove gas fees and remove pop-ups and stuff like that um a lot of other kind of like abstractions at the application Level","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=620s"},{"start_seconds":627,"text":"that can essentially give you the ability to use these applications and and in a lot of cases they can make it feel very almost indistinguishable from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=627s"},{"start_seconds":634,"text":"web 2 and the infrastructure is already there it's proven it works quite well um there are of course like you know rough edges to it but um within applications","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=634s"},{"start_seconds":642,"text":"it's great but the larger issue in the space and there's a lot of things attached to this that maybe we can get into later um the larger issue in this space is the fact that at an ecosystem","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=642s"},{"start_seconds":650,"text":"level ux is still terrible and it's like you know if I want to go to an application on chain a and then I want to go to another application on chain B","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=650s"},{"start_seconds":658,"text":"I mean as you guys know very well um this experience is miserable for any users and so uh this is where um you know this is why really we decided to to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=658s"},{"start_seconds":666,"text":"start uh building genra infrastructure on top of our existing sack because um we felt like if you can solve that onboarding problem and you can provide","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=666s"},{"start_seconds":674,"text":"that foundational ux technology for the applications and you can solve and and at least contribute to solving the problem of the ecosystem level ux then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=674s"},{"start_seconds":682,"text":"that's where you start to have some pretty massive change in terms of the types of applications that can built the type of actual consumer adop that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=682s"},{"start_seconds":689,"text":"can see in the industry um and uh eventually just kind of like web 3 seeing it's it's pmf um you know in the broader kind of context of the internet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=689s"},{"start_seconds":698,"text":"and so um that's a little bit more about kind of our context and and how we've ended up where we're at I see um so how does how is particle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=698s"},{"start_seconds":707,"text":"Network constructed today is it I know you guys are building an L1 right uh what's the how do the construction look","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=707s"},{"start_seconds":714,"text":"like and the other question is uh maybe this is something like um critical of the space but we're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=714s"},{"start_seconds":723,"text":"we're talking about like it's near does the same thing right it's an L1 that like trying to do chain abstraction but it's a chain itself right so how does","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=723s"},{"start_seconds":730,"text":"that work like how do we like what what what how do you think about that yeah that's a that's a good question it's something that like we actually wrote we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=730s"},{"start_seconds":739,"text":"recently published a whole page on our website that's like the page is literally titled um why does particle Network need an L1 um which is like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=739s"},{"start_seconds":748,"text":"trying to justify you know like like why is it even an architectural component and basically like the way that that the architecture works is that um really the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=748s"},{"start_seconds":755,"text":"the core product here is not the L1 the L1 is uh essentially a coordination layer and it's it's a I'll get into like the specifics in a second but it's um at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=755s"},{"start_seconds":764,"text":"at the very standard level it's a way that you can coordinate and um sort of create consistency with smart accounts across different chains um but really the core product is a universal accounts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=764s"},{"start_seconds":773,"text":"so Universal accounts is something that we you know if you go through our Twitter you go through my Twitter um you'll kind of see as a common term because this is essentially it's sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=773s"},{"start_seconds":781,"text":"like a um uh at a foundation uses account abstraction to essentially give a user single balance they can use across all chains and so this is like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=781s"},{"start_seconds":789,"text":"the most basic way of understanding it Universal accounts are essentially just smart accounts that users can use uniformally across every application","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=789s"},{"start_seconds":796,"text":"across every chain without any Bridge um so they have a single Consolidated balance everywhere and so um how does it actually work well we have an L1 that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=796s"},{"start_seconds":805,"text":"that drives a lot of this functionality the users in their accounts they still liveb on these external chains they still live on base and polygon and ethereum and whatever else may be um but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=805s"},{"start_seconds":812,"text":"the actual underlying coordination for the cross-chain transactions that these um that these uh Universal accounts execute um as well as the state of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=812s"},{"start_seconds":820,"text":"accounts themselves is managed by the L1 so like there's kind of like two main problems that having a chain itself is solving especially with this type of uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=820s"},{"start_seconds":829,"text":"architecture the first thing that you guys might be familiar with is within account abstraction specifically ERC 47 within the ethereum eosm there's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=829s"},{"start_seconds":837,"text":"pretty big problem with cross chain um and or just like multi-chain in general because if I deploy a contract on one chain and then I deploy it on three","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=837s"},{"start_seconds":846,"text":"other chains and I change the state or I I do some arbitrary State change on chain a let's say I add a module right or I change a signer or something like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=846s"},{"start_seconds":854,"text":"that and all of a sudden the state on chain a is now different from what I have on BC and d right so now now my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=854s"},{"start_seconds":862,"text":"smart account is it's totally different than the other three instances on these different evm chains and this is a problem because it means that there's no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=862s"},{"start_seconds":871,"text":"consistency across change especially whenever you're making updates to to this um arbitrary State and so the solution to this is kind of this idea of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=871s"},{"start_seconds":878,"text":"a key store Hub and this has been talked about a lot vitalica has talked about this um safe is doing some good work on this and so we're basically implementing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=878s"},{"start_seconds":885,"text":"um a key store Hub through the means of of um our blockchain which is essentially a way of having a single","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=885s"},{"start_seconds":892,"text":"kind of source of Truth and shared state that is universal across all all deployments of the of the of the account and so if I deploy the account on five","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=892s"},{"start_seconds":900,"text":"different evm chains I change um the signer on one chain we can actually using um the the kind of key store Hub","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=900s"},{"start_seconds":908,"text":"on our chain we can identify that and reflect the changes on every other chain that is deployed on and so the state for the smart account is always consistent","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=908s"},{"start_seconds":915,"text":"and so you fixed the multichain problem with smart accounts um and this is a pretty huge issue even though it might not seem like you know um like it's it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=915s"},{"start_seconds":923,"text":"kind of a small thing in in the grand scope but this is like to to use AA cross chains this needs to be solved the other thing is um basically being able","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=923s"},{"start_seconds":931,"text":"to coordinate transactions um with solvers that are Atomic and so um the way that we Bridge funds across chains","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=931s"},{"start_seconds":939,"text":"is something that you know you guys also might be familiar with it's a very a cross style um solver based bridging mechanism where we essentially um have a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=939s"},{"start_seconds":946,"text":"transaction that the user wants to do we front them funds for that transaction the solver fronts the funds for that transaction they pay for the transaction and they pay themselves back using the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=946s"},{"start_seconds":954,"text":"funds and the origin chains and so if I want to buy an nft on base that costs $100 and I 50 on polygon and 50 on um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=954s"},{"start_seconds":961,"text":"you know ethereum then the solver will pay for that transaction and then pay itself back using the funds on polygon and ethereum and so this is like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=961s"},{"start_seconds":968,"text":"relatively simple and this is right now the most common way of moving funds across chains especially in the chain of truction vertical because it's very fast and efficient and stuff like that um but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=968s"},{"start_seconds":976,"text":"our chain is actually responsible for coordinating these transactions with these solvers in a way that is atomic um and uh safe and verifiable and so we can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=976s"},{"start_seconds":984,"text":"actually um verify and settle these transactions on chain on on the L1 before we give it to the solvers and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=984s"},{"start_seconds":991,"text":"it reduces risk um it uh makes the system more decentralized because you're not really relying on particle to be like some centralized coordinator of everything um and it allows us to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=991s"},{"start_seconds":1000,"text":"actually um settle and verify the um the validity of transaction sequences before they get pushed um to to Sol version so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1000s"},{"start_seconds":1009,"text":"this is uh essentially why we we have the L1 as a part of our architecture um we thought about other ways of doing it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1009s"},{"start_seconds":1016,"text":"but every other way to some degree leads to more centralization um which is somewhat of a common theme we actually um talked about this a little bit um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1016s"},{"start_seconds":1025,"text":"Alton and I did a live stream with um fluent the other day and we talked about on onchain versus offchain and so like chain instruction a lot of the time does","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1025s"},{"start_seconds":1032,"text":"lead to to sometimes centralization prom or moving things off chain um so we wanted to avoid that and reduce that as much as we could and so the L1 was a uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1032s"},{"start_seconds":1041,"text":"a mechanism for us to do that to some degree yeah what do you think about if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1041s"},{"start_seconds":1047,"text":"if somebody did this in L2 what were the differences right I mean l1's are l1's are actually great like I mean we just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1047s"},{"start_seconds":1054,"text":"been chatting with Michael because it's like in l1's you can you can control everything but you also as as a builder","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1054s"},{"start_seconds":1061,"text":"yourself right like part of network also the gases don't get anywhere like the gases are used in here","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1061s"},{"start_seconds":1068,"text":"um actually maybe it's the verain abstraction because you need to use the gasby to do something on another chain so you still have to sell on the token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1068s"},{"start_seconds":1077,"text":"but um have you guys consider an L2 or like you know if you were to build this on an L2 like what what would be the differences for you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1077s"},{"start_seconds":1084,"text":"guys I think you could probably build very similar functionality on an L2 um we specifically chose like an L1 is kind of air quotes we built a Cosmos app","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1084s"},{"start_seconds":1092,"text":"chain essentially we built a chain using the cosmos SDK um and it's evm compatible but uh that's essentially kind of the the core of of um what we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1092s"},{"start_seconds":1101,"text":"did we like the cosmos SDK because you have a lot of flexibility there you can make it evm compatible um you also have access to IPC so you can do some really interesting things with that um and you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1101s"},{"start_seconds":1110,"text":"just have a ton of customization flexibility with the actual architecture of the chain which for us is going to be really important especially when it comes to some of these um you know uh I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1110s"},{"start_seconds":1117,"text":"guess more ambitious components that we're going to be implementing um and so we uh felt that that was the best uh kind of path to go a long time ago we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1117s"},{"start_seconds":1127,"text":"had the idea of actually launching an L2 um it was going to be something that we we considered for quite a while um and uh was kind of a part of our original","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1127s"},{"start_seconds":1135,"text":"architecture back probably 1 year plus ago um but we decided to move to a cosmo appap train and that's been working out","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1135s"},{"start_seconds":1143,"text":"for us pretty well so far we're still a little bit away from mainnet um probably Q4 is kind of our our current date but um yeah I think uh we're pretty happy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1143s"},{"start_seconds":1152,"text":"with that decision I think originally we're looking at like you know ZK EVMS and how do we kind of make this most efficient and uh you know the there's a pretty big overhead difference between","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1152s"},{"start_seconds":1160,"text":"launching an L2 um uh and launching an L1 I mean just like there's a lot more work involved typically with an L1 especially when it comes to Bo shopping","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1160s"},{"start_seconds":1168,"text":"validator sets and I mean all these different things it's it's pretty complicated um and uh it's just more involved typically but I think we've had","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1168s"},{"start_seconds":1177,"text":"a we've had a pretty good experience with it so far and um the the benefits that you get from using custom DEC have outweighed I think um the uh the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1177s"},{"start_seconds":1185,"text":"drawbacks of the additional overhead um and so I think you know you could like function functionally you could build pretty similar um architecture on an L2","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1185s"},{"start_seconds":1194,"text":"I think uh there probably be some differences in terms of you know security insurances and stuff like that but um I think overall uh yeah that we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1194s"},{"start_seconds":1202,"text":"chose the L1 route um because the cosem and the cosmos is pretty strong Ethan um could you maybe talk a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1202s"},{"start_seconds":1211,"text":"little bit about the future proof architecture of particle Network I I found that phrase actually interesting I think it's on the website but it's like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1211s"},{"start_seconds":1220,"text":"chain abstraction has come around and everyone saying like oh wow all these things with gas fees and addresses and account names and everything we can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1220s"},{"start_seconds":1229,"text":"innovate upon it immensely and and you know change the game for users I don't think many people have thought where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1229s"},{"start_seconds":1236,"text":"does this go in the future if you run It Forward three years say and I I know that there was things listed in that architecture around like messaging","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1236s"},{"start_seconds":1244,"text":"bundling things like that so maybe you can just paint a picture of like what is a futureproof architecture on on particle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1244s"},{"start_seconds":1251,"text":"Network yeah you know I think for us a very big important component of of how we build things is that it's very um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1251s"},{"start_seconds":1258,"text":"it's very open to um structural changes and to um uh plugging different architectural um providers and stuff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1258s"},{"start_seconds":1265,"text":"like that without really many changes to the protocol itself um and so we actually use for example um like one of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1265s"},{"start_seconds":1272,"text":"the the original things that we proposed was something called um for the chain itself uh aggregated data availability so when we originally proposed this it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1272s"},{"start_seconds":1281,"text":"was a little bit more of a controversial concept I think it's more normalized now like you have Manta that does multi- and stuff like that um but uh aggregated was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1281s"},{"start_seconds":1289,"text":"essentially like looking at at this saying well we don't really feel comfortable especially when it comes to kind of like future proofing and reducing points of failure um we don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1289s"},{"start_seconds":1297,"text":"really feel comfortable using a single day layer and being completely reliant on that um for like the extent of our of our lifetime um as a provider and as you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1297s"},{"start_seconds":1306,"text":"know within the train itself and so we built we we kind of proposed aggregated da which is like the ability to plug in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1306s"},{"start_seconds":1313,"text":"any da provider and actually load balance between um requests and and uh and where you post data and so that was one thing and you know even like with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1313s"},{"start_seconds":1321,"text":"our validator set we use a mixture of our own validators as well as um you know we've been doing a lot of work with the Babylon team and um allowing uh that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1321s"},{"start_seconds":1328,"text":"validator set to um contribute to consensus to where we don't have to have a complete validator set that is totally economically secure that values the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1328s"},{"start_seconds":1336,"text":"chain and so like from an architectural perspective on the Chain we have a few things that have really been designed around um reducing points of failure um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1336s"},{"start_seconds":1344,"text":"and being able to plug in uh pretty much any other provider and have it just work from a more user perspective and and within the smart accounts themselves um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1344s"},{"start_seconds":1353,"text":"we believe like ERC 437 to be a relatively longterm standard although Universal accounts can uh theoretically work with pretty much any account","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1353s"},{"start_seconds":1361,"text":"attraction standard um as long as it has like the really fundamental um components of account of traction and so if we move to like a protocol level AA","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1361s"},{"start_seconds":1369,"text":"then the universal accounts can to adapt for that really easily and it really won't disrupt things too much um and so we've kind of designed our architecture","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1369s"},{"start_seconds":1376,"text":"around adaptability as inevit y the landscape will change and better ux technologies will kind of you know be released but I think ideally Universal","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1376s"},{"start_seconds":1383,"text":"counsil will always be there as an option um and hopefully as a a somewhat of a a base layer um implementation","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1383s"},{"start_seconds":1391,"text":"where you know especially that applications and users and wallets potentially that want that functionality that want that balance consolidation which I believe will be most","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1391s"},{"start_seconds":1399,"text":"applications and most users especially as we get into more consumer onboarding um I think Universal accounts are going to be one of the main ways to do that um although of course and that's not to say","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1399s"},{"start_seconds":1408,"text":"Universal accounts are the only implementation that are going to be popular over a long term I think that there are many other fantastic projects that are building also at what I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1408s"},{"start_seconds":1417,"text":"consider the account level um and uh they're doing a great job with this as well and so I think that probably what you're going to see is a number of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1417s"},{"start_seconds":1424,"text":"account level Solutions um over the next few years that are adopted by users and applications and wallets um and uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1424s"},{"start_seconds":1431,"text":"ideally they're all pretty interoperable so if I go to an application that's using um Universal accounts or if I go to an application that's using you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1431s"},{"start_seconds":1439,"text":"I don't know or blabs or some other you know account level solution as a user it feels pretty similar to me um and if I want to switch wallets it feels pretty similar to me as well and so I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1439s"},{"start_seconds":1448,"text":"this is the ideal future and this is kind of how we're building towards that um what we're going to be doing eventually that's also like kind of I was actually talking about this in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1448s"},{"start_seconds":1456,"text":"um there's a channel on telegram chain abstracted nerds it's ran by the socket team and um I was talking about the importance of having unopinionated","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1456s"},{"start_seconds":1463,"text":"neutral infrastructure um for long-term sustainability and so what I mean what I mean by this is that basically having in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1463s"},{"start_seconds":1471,"text":"this case an account level chain abration solution that is not clashing necessarily with other Solutions in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1471s"},{"start_seconds":1478,"text":"same space and so because as a user I don't the users don't care if they're using particle network if they're using you know Project A and B and C they just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1478s"},{"start_seconds":1486,"text":"want to you they just want to use an application they they just want to access their balances and and have that be it um again same thing with like the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1486s"},{"start_seconds":1493,"text":"chain that you use the the provider and the account level Su that you use should ultimately be up to either the wallet or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1493s"},{"start_seconds":1500,"text":"the um the application that's being used and so that shouldn't affect end user experience and this is really important because one of the main like issues for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1500s"},{"start_seconds":1509,"text":"me personally as well as just like the larger chain abstraction space has been well we're solving for fragmentation but what if we're introducing more fragmentation right now by just having a bunch of solutions that totally clash","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1509s"},{"start_seconds":1518,"text":"with each other and are not interoperable and so I think what's really important what we're also striving for is having this unin unended infrastructure where as a user I can go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1518s"},{"start_seconds":1526,"text":"to an application that's using particle I can go to an application us using pretty much any other account level project and the experience is the same for me the only difference is basically that the those fundamental Tech like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1526s"},{"start_seconds":1535,"text":"technical differences and different capabilities that is more developer facing so it's a very similar philosophy to the whole like why change truction is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1535s"},{"start_seconds":1542,"text":"exists in the first place um and this kind of how we're building uh and and positioning Universal accounts is to be neutral infrastructure that fits quite well with the rest of the ecosystem and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1542s"},{"start_seconds":1550,"text":"so as things start to scale and as more users come into the space um we can uh kind of be prepared for that and you know it won't become a conflict of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1550s"},{"start_seconds":1558,"text":"interest where like we're trying to get everybody on like our standard but like there's a bunch of other standards and like different ways of looking at it um and so that's at least um a little you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1558s"},{"start_seconds":1565,"text":"know more about how we're looking at the Future Okay um what are the things when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1565s"},{"start_seconds":1574,"text":"you look at the landscape today I know we we talked about the you know and the end of team did a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1574s"},{"start_seconds":1581,"text":"mapping um how do you see all of that talk to each other so what are the things that the community should do um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1581s"},{"start_seconds":1590,"text":"to be able to not fragment further but kind of unite everything right because when I look at that I'm like oh I see the same thing as like the L1 L2","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1590s"},{"start_seconds":1599,"text":"landscape um you know there's a lot of stuff um what what what should be the mental model model for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1599s"},{"start_seconds":1606,"text":"that yeah so I think the way that that we kind of have defined it you know there's kind of like two ways to look at the chain abstraction stack first of all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1606s"},{"start_seconds":1615,"text":"um the cake framework was of course the most popular one although sometimes times I'm recently I've been more hesitant to use it because what I've noticed is that um it's actually been","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1615s"},{"start_seconds":1623,"text":"creating some confusion with people where they they see it as um too generalized or it's a little bit unclear what the purpose of chain obstruction is um and so I think it was somebody from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1623s"},{"start_seconds":1631,"text":"anoma on Twitter yesterday and they're like I still don't know what chain obstruction is and I there I somebody commented I think it was um uh colani","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1631s"},{"start_seconds":1639,"text":"Network and and they triy to give him a definition and he was like I feel like chain abstraction is just some rehashing of interoperability and a can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1639s"},{"start_seconds":1646,"text":"abstraction intense and I was like like I reply all was like I think you're kind of conflating the cake framework with with what really is a simple goal of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1646s"},{"start_seconds":1654,"text":"chain abstraction and so the way that I found to be most useful of looking at the chain abration stack is basically in three different layers that make it a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1654s"},{"start_seconds":1662,"text":"little bit easier to really understand um how everything's going to fit together and so these three layers are are essentially categorizations of chain abstraction Solutions themselves so at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1662s"},{"start_seconds":1669,"text":"kind of the top um of the funnel you have uh the application layer um and so this is going to be things like socket","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1669s"},{"start_seconds":1677,"text":"or claster agoric basically things that are more developer facing solutions that integrate at the application layer so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1677s"},{"start_seconds":1684,"text":"actually give developers the ability to programmatically compose and exist across multiple chains simultaneously there's a lot of solutions that are building towards this it's basically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1684s"},{"start_seconds":1692,"text":"giving developers the ability to create chain ostic applications right which I think I think near has also been talking a lot about this idea of chain ostic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1692s"},{"start_seconds":1699,"text":"applications recently as well which I've I'm a big fan of this concept because I think giving developers the ability to create really unique experiences that are that can basically stand across any","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1699s"},{"start_seconds":1708,"text":"blockchain and not really needing to as a developer Deploy on different chains or like um it's right now working across chains as a developers is uh pretty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1708s"},{"start_seconds":1717,"text":"complicated and so these Solutions B basically will reduce that complexity and allow for experiences that can exist across any chain in the ecosystem","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1717s"},{"start_seconds":1725,"text":"depending on what the needs are and um there's no there's no um complexity associated with that and so yeah socket agoric um even change signat to some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1725s"},{"start_seconds":1734,"text":"degree and many other Solutions are building at this layer um and then you have underneath that you have the account layer so this is basically giving users a single balance that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1734s"},{"start_seconds":1742,"text":"can use everywhere um and so this is things like particle Network or blabs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1742s"},{"start_seconds":1748,"text":"Arana um uh one balance to some degree um also chain signatures have some overlap in this layer and so this is um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1748s"},{"start_seconds":1757,"text":"essentially like the more user facing part of the stock the account layer it's what users will interface with directly to have um this property of balance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1757s"},{"start_seconds":1764,"text":"consolidation everywhere underneath that you have uh more debated upon layer um which is something that you can call the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1764s"},{"start_seconds":1772,"text":"blockchain layer and so this is the third and final one which is things like polygon agare or um optimism super chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1772s"},{"start_seconds":1779,"text":"uh zync elastic chain you know like basically rollup clusters I think is a way that they roll up defined it um or chain collectives or whatever you want","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1779s"},{"start_seconds":1787,"text":"to call it um groups of chains that basically share um share some properties underneath kind of some some larger","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1787s"},{"start_seconds":1795,"text":"infrastructural umbrella like the AG for example and so if you have these three layers of basically how you approach chain abstraction the way that I see it is that you have a lot of collaboration","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1795s"},{"start_seconds":1803,"text":"vertically so vertically there's no con like as a as a user I actually don't know the difference if I'm using particle and claster or particle in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1803s"},{"start_seconds":1812,"text":"agoric or particle in socket because it's a that's a very background thing and and same thing ideally if I'm using socket and particle and or blabs or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1812s"},{"start_seconds":1821,"text":"whatever it may be like the experience is very similar across these so vertically in this stack of those three layers there's a lot of collaboration and so you can work very closely with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1821s"},{"start_seconds":1829,"text":"these teams across the stack and um I don't really think there's ever going to be fragmentation there because there there each part of the stack is solving","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1829s"},{"start_seconds":1837,"text":"a different part of the problem and there's there's very little overlap between these parts of the problem they exist in isolation and so each of these providers are solving those problems","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1837s"},{"start_seconds":1846,"text":"distinctly and I don't really think there going to be fragmentation vertically I think that there will be competition and potentially fragmentation horizontally so what I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1846s"},{"start_seconds":1854,"text":"mean by this is that specifically between I think especially a layer and blockchain layer Solutions between application layer Solutions I don't know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1854s"},{"start_seconds":1861,"text":"I think it's that that's also because it's so application specific I'm not too worried about that but I think as I mentioned a moment ago the most fragmentation that you're going to see","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1861s"},{"start_seconds":1869,"text":"in the most competition is going to be um between um account layer Solutions and between blockchain layer Solutions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1869s"},{"start_seconds":1876,"text":"um I think that uh the biggest risk is going to be between account level Solutions um in terms of uh creating","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1876s"},{"start_seconds":1883,"text":"more fragmentation because uh ultimately like you know even just now like if an application is using one SDK versus","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1883s"},{"start_seconds":1890,"text":"another and another as long as it's just doing something for me in the background I don't really care too much about it but if I'm using one account standard versus another account standard and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1890s"},{"start_seconds":1898,"text":"three or four others then this affects me as a user because now I need to migrate funds or like each of them are are totally different different wallets stuff like that and so I think the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1898s"},{"start_seconds":1907,"text":"important thing will be that there is some degree of I think the market will move us towards this direction but I think most account layer solutions that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1907s"},{"start_seconds":1914,"text":"are successful will have some degree of interoperability between them buil in um or they're all just going to be neutral providers that are compatible um with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1914s"},{"start_seconds":1923,"text":"with accounts uh across any application and so there's no need to migrate or manage different accounts managers things like that um I think the migration piece is really going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1923s"},{"start_seconds":1931,"text":"the biggest point of fragmentation the requirement for user to move across different account layer Solutions um and move their funds across them I think is going to be uh where the most this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1931s"},{"start_seconds":1939,"text":"fragmentation comes from um and so solving this is going to take some time but I think that the market will reward providers that take steps to be more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1939s"},{"start_seconds":1947,"text":"interoperable with one another and so ideally think what we're going to see is probably three to four winners at this at this layer um that end up materializing and being popular across","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1947s"},{"start_seconds":1955,"text":"the stack and developers and wallets and what not will choose whatever account layer solution is best based upon maybe whether or not it it use Smart accounts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1955s"},{"start_seconds":1963,"text":"or you know uh signature properties do you only need to sign once do you need to sign for every Transaction what are the the the cross chain mechanisms look","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1963s"},{"start_seconds":1970,"text":"like do you use solvers are you using a more traditional bridging mechanism I mean these are kind of fundamental architectural things I think um the market will will optimize for but um I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1970s"},{"start_seconds":1980,"text":"think that's kind of how I view the stack and and competition between it um most important kind of component of this is that within this kind of multi-layer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1980s"},{"start_seconds":1988,"text":"three- layer stack everything is very collaborative vertically um and competitive um horizontally which I think is actually a good thing and it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1988s"},{"start_seconds":1995,"text":"quite healthy for the space that would be a pretty cool diagram do you guys I don't know if you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=1995s"},{"start_seconds":2004,"text":"guys have created that but but it might be the visual I think would go along way for for Outsiders to to kind of be able to put the pieces of it together and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2004s"},{"start_seconds":2012,"text":"kind of see where we're going um I like the way you phrase that in terms of there's a lot of competing Visions for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2012s"},{"start_seconds":2019,"text":"chain abstraction not all of them are going to win but the more collaborative ones are are the ones that are best positioned I think what I always find","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2019s"},{"start_seconds":2027,"text":"myself thinking when you when you just kind of went through that that whole stack is just like what maybe and this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2027s"},{"start_seconds":2035,"text":"is more for I guess the audience what is it that everyone sees at the end of the tunnel that's incentivizing all of these people to launch all of these products","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2035s"},{"start_seconds":2044,"text":"and companies to try to solve chain abstraction like what what is the best case scenario of where this goes for crypto in in your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2044s"},{"start_seconds":2052,"text":"understanding yeah there's a that's a good question there's a lot of moving parts to that um I think that uh first of all you kind of mentioned something I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2052s"},{"start_seconds":2059,"text":"want to uh touch on just briefly which is uh why are all these providers like what are the incentives really for all these providers to um to launch really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2059s"},{"start_seconds":2067,"text":"solution and so I think this this is sort of an interesting conversation because what's probably going to end up happening is a lot of these Tain exraction providers of these different parts of the stacker are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2067s"},{"start_seconds":2075,"text":"just basically additional toll booths that eer goes through and so this is a you know like this is in terms of how this impact","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2075s"},{"start_seconds":2083,"text":"user experience I mean of course adding more and more like taking my cut from like providing my services it it definitely impacts things a little bit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2083s"},{"start_seconds":2091,"text":"um I think that's how you're going to see a lot of the value creation within these projects go is that the you know there's going to be some slight fee on the transactions done by application Level solution and you know maybe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2091s"},{"start_seconds":2099,"text":"account level Solutions will take small fees on on transactions or some there's some way of extracting value throughout that process right um which I think is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2099s"},{"start_seconds":2107,"text":"you know there's a debate that to be had there of like how many toll boosts can we really have infrastructurally until it's just like we're bombarding users with just taking value at every single","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2107s"},{"start_seconds":2114,"text":"like just extracting as much value from users we as we can um so that's that's one point that's that's interesting that you brought up in terms of like the end","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2114s"},{"start_seconds":2122,"text":"result for users I think that there's there's kind of two components this that are going to really important the first is just from a purely user experience","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2122s"},{"start_seconds":2131,"text":"perspective like the end goal is that as a user I should be able to go to any application and use it and not know the chain that I'm using um like I by","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2131s"},{"start_seconds":2138,"text":"default I shouldn't be required to know the chains that I'm interacting with I should just use the application and then that's it as a user I should have no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2138s"},{"start_seconds":2146,"text":"concept of the underlying blockchains of these applications um now this is also this property is highly debated on Twitter um it's how should should we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2146s"},{"start_seconds":2155,"text":"really hide this information from users and how how practical is this and stuff like that that's why was smiling I was like H yeah I agree with you but it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2155s"},{"start_seconds":2163,"text":"just uh like how do we do let's say Michael launches a chain and it's a rock chain how do we know that it's not a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2163s"},{"start_seconds":2171,"text":"rock chain and by the way there's an app that rugs everyone right so um that's the that's still the that's an actually interesting point like it's it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2171s"},{"start_seconds":2180,"text":"abstract but um have you seen interesting have you seen anything there that like is could be done on the wallet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2180s"},{"start_seconds":2188,"text":"level or um you know is there something that you would say like oh it would be actually awesome if somebody built this on partly Network when we go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2188s"},{"start_seconds":2197,"text":"live yeah I think like in terms of reducing this risk specifically um I think a lot of it is going to just come down to trusting applications and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2197s"},{"start_seconds":2205,"text":"applications that are trustworthy are going to ultimately win in the market um under this these conditions and I think that I'm sure there will be some applications that you interact with that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2205s"},{"start_seconds":2213,"text":"are interacting with some rug chain or they have some malicious thing going on in the background and you know you're just going to have to kind of weed those out or have some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2213s"},{"start_seconds":2220,"text":"mechanism of identifying that um I think there was one idea from I believe it was socket that I thought was quite interesting where it's like w wallets or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2220s"},{"start_seconds":2228,"text":"applications or something probably wallets they have like Risk scores for the transactions that you're executing so like if you have a sequence of transactions it it'll like look at those","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2228s"},{"start_seconds":2236,"text":"transactions to see what chains are being interacted with and then before you confirm it'll say here's like the risk assessment of this transaction it's really high right now because you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2236s"},{"start_seconds":2244,"text":"interacting with a chain that has um you know five alltime transactions on it and so you want to be wary of that but even that like I think that's a great idea in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2244s"},{"start_seconds":2253,"text":"terms of like like reducing the risk but I think any any information that you give users about this is going to make it difficult for them because at the end","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2253s"},{"start_seconds":2261,"text":"of the day a lot of users especially the users that we're targeting here um you know they have no idea what any of this means ideally um like they don't even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2261s"},{"start_seconds":2270,"text":"risk scores I think is might be a little bit too much for them um I mean these are General web 2 users here and you know what works best for them is the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2270s"},{"start_seconds":2278,"text":"absolute simplest least cognitively demanding path possible and to achieve that there has to be some degree of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2278s"},{"start_seconds":2285,"text":"trust between a user and the ultimately the application that they're using otherwise we have to give them some information and hope that they will act","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2285s"},{"start_seconds":2292,"text":"upon that information and I think that's like I I think in the space today a lot of people overestimate the like ability for most","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2292s"},{"start_seconds":2301,"text":"people to do this for themselves and to make decisions based on their own security and based on information that's present to them um when it comes to to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2301s"},{"start_seconds":2309,"text":"things like transactions uh it's it's a lot that we're asking for people and so I think if you look at it from the perspective that you know there's going to be a new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2309s"},{"start_seconds":2318,"text":"system of applications that are most popular that's like most people are going to use applications that are established in the market um and uh have make responsible decisions about the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2318s"},{"start_seconds":2326,"text":"chains that they're interacting with and I think that's going to reduce the risk but there definitely will be some security considerations in terms of um you know H how are we handling that for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2326s"},{"start_seconds":2334,"text":"for newer users I think the important component of this property of like like hiding the end chain from the from the user making to to where they they aren't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2334s"},{"start_seconds":2341,"text":"aware of this I think is the the caveat that um this isn't forc and so this is really important because as a user and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2341s"},{"start_seconds":2349,"text":"this is like a big concern that a lot of people have on Twitter is that well hold on like chains have Vibes and I care about the Vibes that these chains have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2349s"},{"start_seconds":2356,"text":"and I really uh I'm quoting somebody that that famously said this on Twitter and it's it's talked about a lot which is that like I want to be aware of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2356s"},{"start_seconds":2363,"text":"chains that I have because I I I care about the properties of these chains all these different things and so like I understand that but I think that that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2363s"},{"start_seconds":2372,"text":"fine like if Crypton native people want to have that access to that information they want to act upon the information of the chains that they're using where they hold funds and absolutely like I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2372s"},{"start_seconds":2380,"text":"chain abstraction shouldn't take that away from people like the abstraction and the removal of this information of the chains that you're using should not be forced it should be an option it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2380s"},{"start_seconds":2388,"text":"should be by the default but if I want to access the information I can um I think that the idea that most people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2388s"},{"start_seconds":2395,"text":"will want to see the ch that they're using um in my opinion I think is is not going to be the case uh same way like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2395s"},{"start_seconds":2403,"text":"you know if if we all of a sudden Force everybody to know what cloud provider every website that they use is is built on it's like nobody doesn't know what to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2403s"},{"start_seconds":2411,"text":"do with that information or how to like like you know are we all of a sudden going to start doing research into what cloud provider has the most secure um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2411s"},{"start_seconds":2418,"text":"like server handling and the most distribution are they using bare metal or are they I mean what like nobody's going to do this research and nobody cares about this so I think that this is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2418s"},{"start_seconds":2427,"text":"um going to be a similar thing with crypto and and with like blockchain specifically they're going to turn into sort of like a cloud provider where most people are not going to care about it if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2427s"},{"start_seconds":2435,"text":"you if it's really important to you and and your uh feeling of control then absolutely they should have access to that information um so I think that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2435s"},{"start_seconds":2443,"text":"like from a user experience perspective the optimal outcome is going to be something where um they don't need to know what chain that they're using um they can just use applications I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2443s"},{"start_seconds":2451,"text":"from a market perspective which is actually more interesting to me than the ux piece I think from a market perspective for to see a pretty massive","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2451s"},{"start_seconds":2459,"text":"shift in uh how applications are built right and so I I actually I wrote a short Twitter article about this um a little while back but there's this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2459s"},{"start_seconds":2468,"text":"argument that's made a lot of the time which is we don't need more infrastructure we need apps where are the apps like we just need more apps we need people to build apps and you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2468s"},{"start_seconds":2476,"text":"it's like I agree like definitely but right now within the market the incentives are really not there to to create truly Innovative applications","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2476s"},{"start_seconds":2485,"text":"most people stick to creating easy um applications that still capture value so forking existing applications or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2485s"},{"start_seconds":2492,"text":"building um you know sometimes half-baked things for specific ecosystems because people use that out of convenience because most users today","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2492s"},{"start_seconds":2500,"text":"uh in a lot of cases are captured out of convenience because they're siloed so you know if I have liquidity on I don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2500s"},{"start_seconds":2508,"text":"know cookie chain like some random Niche chain and you know there's 10,000 users on this chain um and I launch a deck for this chain that's the only decks on this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2508s"},{"start_seconds":2516,"text":"chain that but of course I'm going to I've just captured the value of everybody on this chain because otherwise they have to Bridge and do all these things and and by default they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2516s"},{"start_seconds":2523,"text":"siloed into the cem and so if I can just simply Fork unit Swap and you know add a different logo to it and then deploy it here then I capture a lot of value so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2523s"},{"start_seconds":2530,"text":"really the incentives today are not aligned with developers building Innovative applications but and a lot of this is due to the fact that users are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2530s"},{"start_seconds":2538,"text":"siloed and so all of a sudden what we're going to see hopefully is that with chain abstraction we're going to have this sudden shift where users are no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2538s"},{"start_seconds":2545,"text":"longer siloed and users are ackn stick to the specific chain that they're using and so there is no there's no more I'm using this out of convenience everything","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2545s"},{"start_seconds":2553,"text":"to end users is a choice based on application quality not convenience so I think this this small change is going to have pretty massive impacts to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2553s"},{"start_seconds":2560,"text":"overall ecosystem it's the idea that as a as an application as a developer I can no longer just build something that is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2560s"},{"start_seconds":2568,"text":"lazy or that is half-baked because I'll still get users because I'm deploying it into a few different ecosystems I I am forced Now to create high quality","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2568s"},{"start_seconds":2576,"text":"applications with product Market fit that genuinely attract users otherwise I'll fail as as an organization and I won't actually generate any revenue and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2576s"},{"start_seconds":2585,"text":"so the competition in the market now will reward Innovative applications because users are much more opinionated based upon quality and not based upon","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2585s"},{"start_seconds":2594,"text":"the convenience of wherever they have their funds located right so I think this change in users opinion what they optimize for within their experience and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2594s"},{"start_seconds":2601,"text":"ultimately looking for quality over convenience I think this will move the the industry in a way where this whole we just need more apps is no longer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2601s"},{"start_seconds":2610,"text":"going to be really a thing that people say because people will build apps because that's where the money is at that's how you generate Revenue at this point that isn't really the case today","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2610s"},{"start_seconds":2617,"text":"in a lot in a lot of scenarios um and so I think that uh with chain abstraction hopefully we're going to see that shift and that will be the most impactful","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2617s"},{"start_seconds":2625,"text":"thing because we're going to see the agnos ification of users from chains which will impact the market make things more competitive allow applications to really create more truly Innovative","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2625s"},{"start_seconds":2632,"text":"things and capture um user value from that um and from user experience perspective things are much more simplified they one more accessible for web 2 users and in total you have this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2632s"},{"start_seconds":2642,"text":"hopefully um uh very new type of experience where we have great applications pmf applications as well as users that have um a lot of flexibility","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2642s"},{"start_seconds":2650,"text":"there and so maybe I'm a little bit over optimistic about about everything but I think um it's interesting way of looking at it so so kind of to summarize you're saying there's not going to be any more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2650s"},{"start_seconds":2659,"text":"copy pasta hopefully yeah we'll see yeah yeah well yeah there's there's always","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2659s"},{"start_seconds":2666,"text":"going to be copy Buster right but it's just that like if you even think about it the person that does it like pump.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2666s"},{"start_seconds":2673,"text":"fun for example I mean it is a user app I mean we can discuss the utility of it but um it is the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2673s"},{"start_seconds":2681,"text":"first kind of app that it does and people try to Fork it and nobody was able to Value capture as much as they did like Unis swap is the same like it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2681s"},{"start_seconds":2690,"text":"a first amm built on on ethereum and then people forked it and then devalued and the other ones that to take the took","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2690s"},{"start_seconds":2697,"text":"is not the same the the problem with this is like maybe I I'll ask this question on the developer side is you know if you come into the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2697s"},{"start_seconds":2705,"text":"space um you you see these massive rounds right like so you saw like the with the last I don't know quarter 2","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2705s"},{"start_seconds":2713,"text":"three you're like oh like bar chain race 100 million like store 140 like and then you look at maybe it's just one example","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2713s"},{"start_seconds":2721,"text":"of pulley Market but the rest is kind of like very hard to find um applications that raise a lot of money and you as a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2721s"},{"start_seconds":2729,"text":"builder I was like I'm going to build W one too cuz you know it's it's just seems like I'm I'm more likely to Value capture and when you go to VCS and other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2729s"},{"start_seconds":2737,"text":"people they also tend to take a infrastructure bet rather than a at BET right so like even in chanted sture they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2737s"},{"start_seconds":2745,"text":"more likely to power or invest into into a company that does TR abstraction than the app so like what should happen there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2745s"},{"start_seconds":2755,"text":"for this to kind of switch because like I've tried to build um you can actually build a very fee generating business uh in crypto just doing apps because like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2755s"},{"start_seconds":2764,"text":"it's just a numbers game you build you build you build you build and there's something that's going to like stick with the users even though you have like 5,000 users you can actually generate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2764s"},{"start_seconds":2772,"text":"more than a web 2 app because you have this like fee structure that you can put in um but like in your case like how do we switch this developer mentality uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2772s"},{"start_seconds":2781,"text":"from from this like let's build infrastructure to um you know let's build apps I think a lot of it's going to come","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2781s"},{"start_seconds":2790,"text":"from a cultural change in terms of investing strategy um and I think that there there has to be some cut off for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2790s"},{"start_seconds":2798,"text":"investing in more infra there's there's a point in which it's super redundant and eventually there's not much more value to capture there like I don't know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2798s"},{"start_seconds":2805,"text":"like I mean you can only launch tokens and whatever build more infrastructure for so long like you know there's there's a limitation to it at some point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2805s"},{"start_seconds":2812,"text":"and so I think that especially once uh these incentives sort shift and uh the viability and and uh really the the you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2812s"},{"start_seconds":2821,"text":"know the the push uh for many users to create applications that are are optimized for Quality I think as that changes hopefully what I would expect is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2821s"},{"start_seconds":2829,"text":"that the VC sentiment and the investing strategy um will shift a little bit slowly towards applications especially if there's a lot more more than just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2829s"},{"start_seconds":2837,"text":"poly Market that end up actually generating real value because you know if we start to see this the shift of clearly infrastructure is um you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2837s"},{"start_seconds":2846,"text":"losing its momentum in terms of like we we were kind of hitting our limit there but all of a sudden now okay what we're seeing that applications are starting to proliferate a little bit more and you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2846s"},{"start_seconds":2854,"text":"know maybe there's like two or three examples now of like good large applications that are generating a lot of value rather than just one or two um I think that that should hopefully cause","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2854s"},{"start_seconds":2863,"text":"a change in sentiment and of course if if VCS and investors if they move towards applications then that's where developers will go naturally but also some of this comes down to like you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2863s"},{"start_seconds":2872,"text":"a big b like Band-Aid for this right now has been the app chain thesis of like okay well we can bu applications but they're also chains and so then you get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2872s"},{"start_seconds":2881,"text":"to like you know sort of loop pull it and like you're also launching a chain at the same time but you're building an application and So like um you know you still get to capture some value in that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2881s"},{"start_seconds":2889,"text":"sense and so I think that's been the strategy for many but that's that's probably a reason why so many are launching app chains right now is just purely because of the Optics but I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2889s"},{"start_seconds":2898,"text":"that um uh of course there's no guarantee that sentiment will shift but I do think that we're going to start like you know overall investors are going to start realizing especially as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2898s"},{"start_seconds":2906,"text":"we start hitting the cap with things like chain abstraction and other like fundamental Technologies I don't know how how much more you can go N I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2906s"},{"start_seconds":2914,"text":"infrastructure will always be a vertical that is invested in I mean there's always room to to improve of course but ideally applications in terms of value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2914s"},{"start_seconds":2921,"text":"capture in terms of of um opportunity will outweigh um that of of infrastructure I think it already does","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2921s"},{"start_seconds":2929,"text":"but I think importantly people should to realize this as more applications start to um start to proliferate especially with the implementation of CH instruction I think I think it Mak sense","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2929s"},{"start_seconds":2937,"text":"too in a sense of like if you went back two years and you said build me a ticketing dap that we can Implement at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2937s"},{"start_seconds":2945,"text":"concerts and you think about all the friction involved in your chain your gas fee uh getting money into the ticketing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2945s"},{"start_seconds":2952,"text":"dap like moving moving the potential nft to another chain and if you say Okay three years later we've we've solved all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2952s"},{"start_seconds":2960,"text":"those problems so now your ticketing dap 2.0 can run on one wallet across chains it can be connected to an on or off ramp","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2960s"},{"start_seconds":2968,"text":"and it's able to go I think like I think that makes sense at least to me of just how this space builds out because then the incentive says okay who can build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2968s"},{"start_seconds":2975,"text":"the most creative ticketing dap now that we've solved for all of the kind of unsexy uh pain in the ass points to even use it in the first","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2975s"},{"start_seconds":2984,"text":"place right yeah you know whoever who can create the best ticking application that gets adopted the most because it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2984s"},{"start_seconds":2991,"text":"has the best user experience and you know the best um under features yeah exactly yeah and like that's what is going to win ultimately it's it's it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2991s"},{"start_seconds":2999,"text":"about quality right and so I think you know that factor will hopefully and just like a just kind of a I think almost","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=2999s"},{"start_seconds":3007,"text":"like a a free marketization of web 3 where like web 3 moves far into more like a traditional Market um where uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3007s"},{"start_seconds":3015,"text":"quality is optimized rather than than kind of like it's a little bit convoluted right now how it all functions where it's not really like a traditional Market in that sense where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3015s"},{"start_seconds":3023,"text":"like everything is um highly competitive and quality optimized but but um I I agree I think we're going to start seeing that pretty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3023s"},{"start_seconds":3030,"text":"soon you want to wrap up all ton yeah I think it's oh it's actually one minute away yeah it's nice to nice to chat with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3030s"},{"start_seconds":3038,"text":"Ethan what is the if somebody comes in and watches this podcast what is the one thing that you you would want to tell folks uh it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3038s"},{"start_seconds":3046,"text":"could be about yourself it could be about parlan network uh anything that that comes to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3046s"},{"start_seconds":3052,"text":"mind um M obstruction is inevitable uh follow me on Twitter at theask web 3 I post a lot about chain exraction um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3052s"},{"start_seconds":3060,"text":"we also do post on our main Twitter particle NWR kit we're going to be launching Main and Universal accounts um in the next quarter or two and um the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3060s"},{"start_seconds":3068,"text":"space is speeding up really quickly keeping ey on chain of traction and um yeah PR really appreciate you guys having me on I think those are some great questions and kind of got into the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3068s"},{"start_seconds":3075,"text":"weeds there so um yeah I'm looking forward to uh to the episode and of course um yeah just keep up with chain oftion we'll stay on the lookout for you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3075s"},{"start_seconds":3084,"text":"Ethan you're rising star in web so we appreciate the time and uh yeah good luck with everything thank guys","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3084s"},{"start_seconds":3091,"text":"appreciate you guys","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw&t=3091s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=h29i__XeFSw","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/h29i__XeFSw"}