{"id":"_qUnCUZHc5g","title":"Fireside Chat between Zaki Manian (Cosmos) & Alex Skidanov (NEAR) | San Francisco, CA","description":"We recently concluded a DevNet and Mainnet Demo Night at Starfish Mission where we had our friends from Cosmos (https://cosmos.network/ https://www.tendermint.com/) and Fluence (https://fluence.network/) join us.\n\nDuring the night, we also had the fireside chat between Zaki Manian (  / zmanian  ) and Alex Skidanov (  / alexskidanov  ) where they spoke on new NEAR sharding design, fishermen, and different security models. \n\nLearn more about the new NEAR sharding design: https://ethresear.ch/t/whale-fishing-...\n\n\nFollow the latest from NEAR Protocol on, \n\nDiscord: https://near.ai/discord\nMedium: https://near.ai/medium\nTwitter: https://near.ai/twitter\nGitHub: https://near.ai/github\n\n\n#FutureIsNEAR #Blockchain #FiresideChat","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2019-04-25T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/_qUnCUZHc5g/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"what's that's just like chat about like successor so you're saying cosmos cannot cosmos with fishermen cannot work right well okay so here let's let's talk about like why I why I'm like super super suspicious I'm good we're not gonna be here that one I think everybody wants to get home eventually okay so why do I think fishermen don't work okay so so fishermen are this also that like validators I think we don't know that they work but they seem to be working like we have this cosmo sub it has validators it's alive there are other box chains they're live so empirically we have some evidence that this like this model seems to work and that people participate in this validation process but validators have to do work every block like they're out there making decisions about what blocks are valid and invalid every book and you know if they go offline the block chain halts even sufficient them the challenge with fishermen is always fishermen in this sort of natural state only have to do work in Black Swan events so you have this Black Swan event which is an invalid aiders generated in invalid state transition and how about the the fishermen have to immediately like wake up see that this Black Swan event has happened and then and then respond to it and the concern that I've always had like that my suspicions about that fishermen aren't going to work is I've always been suspicious that anyone will actually run this white effectively run these systems to respond to these Black Swan events right but in well fishing the fisherman is more of his closer to a validator conceptually right yes and this is one thing I like about it so the gating reward no man for for acknowledging blocks as well so in fact they are validators yeah but they delete yeah they're what like in BFT terminology i think we would call witnesses they're like active witnesses but like traditionally witnesses in systems have been a mechanism of like convincing people that data is available because like a bunch of people are like yeah I got this walk alright and so but I guess interesting question would be since we started talking about cosmos with fisherman aka polka dot aka pokhara exactly so so what would be your like short comparison between security model of cosmos and security model of polka dot with fisherman okay so what is and this is like this is the core of what we are trying to enable with cosmos which is sooo like my my my history with charting does like way back probably you know like 2016 I was like sitting across the desk from Dominic Williams from Definity like we talked about sharding like every single day and charting has these problems which is what one is adaptive state corruption and the other one is data availability which are really hard and I kept being like really frustrated by by like how hard these things are to bring the market as engineering I actually I think like Alex and the near team are like way better engineers than I am and I kind of assumed that like at some point someone like them would come along and start solving these problems but I wanted to figure out whether or not we could build scalable systems without solving these problems and I think there are a lot of advantages to having systems that don't solve these problems so the security model of cosmos is a zone can do like a zone with evil validators or an evil zone you send your money to it and terrible things can happen the validators can steal all your money you're like oh I looked at it zone I read all the source code like it all looks good i audited everything but the evil validators was just like I hate sucky he sent me his money and I'm gonna take it all and that's basically what a what fishermen are designed to prevent is fishermen are designed to enable a system where you can assume that if one part of the system is is continue like sort of like whatever this relay chain course are etc or whatever you call it it's functioning no shard is ever actually going to have like doing invalid state transition isn't going to be able to steal all your money and so the goal of Cosmos is we're going to allow this bad thing we're like an evil zone can steal all your money but we're not going to allow the other bad thing which is an evil zone can corrupt arbitrary system arbitrary block chains around it that it's connected to right and I guess a theorem takes up to the further extreme right they also saying we also want to survive a nuclear winter yes right which is strictly not easier yeah I mean a theory what were a Tyrian takes this even like a theorem two point I was taking the system even further is they essentially want the system to autonomously recover from like for Mike catastrophic failure almost all of the validators and I'm skeptical that this happens without essentially losing all security properties but I mean I'm the proof of atomic model it works very well yeah but like you know how are you going to get your proof of Vitalik after a nuclear war well you have 50% chance that they still operate but so what is the problem that so what can you talk a little bit about more about like why the adaptive state corruption problem is so important and and like what why you're trying to solve it with near and like why fishermen are good right so and and that that is a very different security model between so effectively Cosmo says every zone is completely independent and and you and so I as a user I will use a particular zone right I will use a particular zone that zone I will be synchronizing right and for as long as everything stays within the zone that's good and it is any IBC happening and to blow into a blockchain communication right yeah if anything happens then either I will have to insure myself the security of the zone I can go there and see the validators and say well those validate there's actually legit except for that IQ whatever yeah yeah that'd be I don't trust and or I can I can just think the zone right right well what we wanted trying to do is we're trying to say so that's get virginia's approach versus homogenius what we're trying to say is this a single system which you use as a whole you're not using every shirt separately and so therefore if one shard gets corrupted and tokens arrived and that's actually my question what goes on so in fact we the cosmos that's his zone got corrupted and let's say that zone was a detriment right and so someone claimed all the diamond tokens and they sent them to another zone which was an exchange on that zone was sufficiently negligent not to verify it and they gave you money the second zone will not be rolled back right that that would be that was that will be attributed to be a failure of the first zone and the exchange which was negligent not sue the the the sort of origin thought process of cosmos is so back in the in the distant past there were dinosaurs and there were these people who were working on smart contracts on this website that's still around called rights org now they work in a company called a Doric and they have this really interesting idea and like you know it's it comes out of the broader history of object capabilities research basically the idea was that like names are really important and what you can do with a distributed computing system is assign a namespace to the security properties of the thing so let's say you have the e Thurman sound e Thurman son has evil validators they steal everyone's money every token that was originated from the e Thurman's own that is floating around caused we'll be like ether mint you know dye or ether mint /a you know rap or whatever and so let's say that the ether Minh zone was compromised and starts doing all this evil stuff the people who are affected are the people who hold things in that namespace but if you hold things in the BMV namespace you don't care and that's sort of the approach of cosmos and I think one thing that's really important to understand is also is the approach that near Protocol is taking and the approach that cosmos is taking are actually fairly complementary go ahead yes an ER will be a zone at some point well you know and calling something a zone almost sounds makes it sound like unimportant what the core thing we are trying to achieve with cosmos ultimately is not about technology it's about politics and what we are trying to do is have a pattern for interaction and scalability that doesn't require political in a row integration and like if you kind of like zoom out to like how something like polka dot is different from something it it's cosmos is you know finance is building a cosmos zone and using our software but they don't care about the atom holders and they don't need to the atom holders can do whatever they want can just can change their protocols in any way and be and be and by Nantz can continue to do whatever they want and I think if that wasn't true they wouldn't be using our stuff like that's the the product market fit that we're going for and so near protocol could have an amazing community it can have it can be the best most usable blockchain in the world but there's always going to be somebody who's like I don't like the decisions that this community makes I want to make my own and cosmos is basically the way is what we've been trying to do is make sure that the that the rails and the protocols to make those two systems be politically independent but economically still able to interact exist while all these kinds of Awesome block chains on your part come into existence cool and so coming back to your question so the goal of near near protocol design is complete the the use case is completely different right so a new protocol tries to be a single block chain effectively so user will interact not with a particular shirt and ideally user should not even know the shirts exist they just interact with the system and so now what shirt gets corrupted and something goes to now they've heard that's a big problem right and so they're from there the question is whether we believe or not the adaptive adversary can actually be that fast and can actually corrupt 66% of a shirt and and it feels like it is possible so okay I'll tell you why it is possible and this is this is the this is the thing that people don't like to think about when they're building scalable blockchain systems is I don't have to like break it like corrupting someone validator is not like like you know I'm I'm like sitting there in my bedroom in the middle of night like electronica playing like hacking into their computer it's I go to aetherium or or a cosmos chain or a Definity or Definity whatever I make a very nice smart contract which it says you know if you can show me a valid a fully signed transaction with this invalid state transition in it I will give you a million dollars you've adaptively corrupted because people will corrupt themselves and then Algren doesn't help you much because you don't need to know the person in advance right yeah it's sufficient for them to prove that they exist right that's I'm from there the question is however algorithm so for example let's take a look talk about coldness let's say I'm so rich I can actually I'm capable of corrupting validators in the zone it's actually relatively easy to reach to them because they in the same disc or channel right right and so so from here they're multiple ways you can go to the disk or channel it exists and then of course most didn't maintain one well there's like polka dot might not have one right well I did the validators will create it's there right exactly then they can hack it especially so this is something that the theorem is a little bit ahead of everybody by having a different clients hacking is a little harder but then it could be a bug in the spec that will not save you then it doesn't help to ask people to change you know social engineer change people changing their software and so and so once we think that validators are corruptible and that is possible then the second thought is that corruption is probably faster than validator rotation because the usual solution says well let's wrote in validator so fast that the time it takes for you to corrupt them is bigger than the time between the rotations but like you you know cosmos is already pretty big right and it's being around not not that long and so the state will be large validator rotation they need to download state so polka dots as well they're going to be stateless I don't know how well that's going to work so so in my in my analysis it's it's pretty challenging so factor every transaction needs to have all the miracle proofs for everything they touch and so transaction which is payment transaction today it's a to account so two public keys and the amount and suddenly it will become like 64 shot 256 hashes so it will become like how many 32 times bigger right so and so rotation like realistically is going to be every few days right and and with a smart contract is going to take 15 seconds right your validator is aware that that can happen that corruption can happen very quickly and so that's why for example like our present design right and kill we commit to whale fishing is very close to a theorem design and the theme of design is very susceptible to adaptive corruption right you know validators in advance they they're for a day you go and you corrupt them the chart is corrupted it's a disaster right and so that's why what we're trying to figure out is how do we secure it right and so quick quick overview of how you can actually secure it right so fisherman has one approach there's actually two more one approach says have so few shirts that is actually keep possible to validate all of them and that's actually a valid approach if you think about it if you think validators actually someone who in that sort of money right so probably 100 people who validate cosmos they quite rich people it's actually possible for them just to launch 100 timers on instances for as long as their you work pays for it and they can validate 100 charts so that's one approach it's a perfectly valid approach the second approach which seems like very reasonable that like occlusion is gonna be right validating 100 zones by then right yeah I think right or rather I think the opposite is also I think it's very very likely that for a while most of the zones will be validated by all the validate is right and the second approach which is more futuristic says instead of trusting people that computation was done correctly let them prove to you that it was done correctly this is fancy construction called Snorks which allows you to do that but it's super expensive and so I it is unlikely we will see it being widely used right there are solutions to they matter labs I think matter laps is the most sophisticated but we're not going to see huge it often write them so fisherman is seems to be the most promising approach and so so I had this idea that I mentioned you on the etherium research forums which was which may or may not be a good idea I'm not even sure if it's implementable but it's actually like I don't know I was reading your post and like it was the first thing about fishermen's I didn't completely hate and I was like oh I like how can you make this better and what I think is probably like the the idea I like is probably some sort of lottery system where the underlying like Merkle transcripts of the of the state execution are like watery tickets and so if you're if you're a fisherman you have an incentive then to I actually go in and look around inside of these state transitions that you're getting looking for watery tickets that you might be able to to make money up and that might give you a really high degree of confidence that there's actually someone out there looking at these transcripts to get these you know who will also detect as a side effect this blacks wanted that right so so that that would not complement well fishing that would be a different approach because they cannot be hidden now right because by saying look this is a transcript of the execution you're saying oh I'm actually looking in the shark right so at that point the moment you publish the transcript that people versus you says okay this guy I will need to corrupt if I want to take over the short right and so but then but then the effective idea says that there are gonna be so many of them because they fishing for the for the lottery tickets that it will be unfeasible just identify all of them and you're always going to miss one and then the only problem is you need some civil resistance mechanism right you're pinning in that mechanism to a particular sharp but you have a state effectively by fishing you're saying I actually committed to the loading the state so it is unlikely I have too many of those right well actually we just figured out it is likely but let's say it is unlikely and then what was about to say all right the problem now is that if obviously the payout should be proportional to the state they still need to have a stake otherwise I would be granting private kiss until I get something that that pays me out right and so that means that the whole set of fishermen is still known in advance that's actually people who committed isn't that already the case and well fish in real fish's button it's not well fish but well fishing well fishing but in well fishing the fisherman's the fishermen are are not revealed like you don't know who's at the very end of the epoch until they rotate you don't know who was fishing where well here the moment they submit one request for for the key they revealed and unless you're you could thorium you could say that they can't cut the fees until the end of the epoch that's actually becoming a very good idea yeah yeah yeah that's actually sounds pretty cool I really like it I think I finally like beta like we'll see if it's broken but I think I finally found a Fisher but things I like yeah yeah that's not sounding very cool ya know so yeah I mean like I mean to a large extent like you know for my view the view of like what we've been trying to accomplish in cosmos is that like you know I'm I you know I I my background is not even in distributed computing really I build scientific and in instruments before like I started getting into this ball chain stuff like all of us who are in this book who were in the first generation of arcane stuff are amateurs and so like I've been trying to like build rails and like pathways and roads for like future people who come down who are better at this than I am to build amazing things and so like you know cosmos is the first step there and I think near Protocol is another is a big step yeah cool okay shall we wrap up here yeah","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-04T04:30:58.391Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":3,"text":"what's that's just like chat about like successor so you're saying cosmos cannot cosmos with fishermen cannot work right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=3s"},{"start_seconds":11,"text":"well okay so here let's let's talk about like why I why I'm like super super suspicious I'm good we're not gonna be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=11s"},{"start_seconds":21,"text":"here that one I think everybody wants to get home eventually okay so why do I think fishermen don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=21s"},{"start_seconds":27,"text":"work okay so so fishermen are this also that like validators I think we don't know that they work but they seem to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=27s"},{"start_seconds":36,"text":"working like we have this cosmo sub it has validators it's alive there are other box chains they're live so empirically we have some evidence","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=36s"},{"start_seconds":43,"text":"that this like this model seems to work and that people participate in this validation process but validators have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=43s"},{"start_seconds":51,"text":"to do work every block like they're out there making decisions about what blocks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=51s"},{"start_seconds":57,"text":"are valid and invalid every book and you know if they go offline the block chain halts even sufficient them the challenge","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=57s"},{"start_seconds":66,"text":"with fishermen is always fishermen in this sort of natural state only have to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=66s"},{"start_seconds":73,"text":"do work in Black Swan events so you have this Black Swan event which is an invalid aiders generated in invalid state transition and how about the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=73s"},{"start_seconds":82,"text":"fishermen have to immediately like wake up see that this Black Swan event has happened and then and then respond to it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=82s"},{"start_seconds":91,"text":"and the concern that I've always had like that my suspicions about that fishermen aren't going to work is I've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=91s"},{"start_seconds":100,"text":"always been suspicious that anyone will actually run this white effectively run these systems to respond to these Black","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=100s"},{"start_seconds":107,"text":"Swan events right but in well fishing the fisherman is more of his closer to a validator conceptually right yes and this is one thing I like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=107s"},{"start_seconds":116,"text":"about it so the gating reward no man for for acknowledging blocks as well so in fact they are validators yeah but they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=116s"},{"start_seconds":124,"text":"delete yeah they're what like in BFT terminology i think we would call witnesses they're like active witnesses but like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=124s"},{"start_seconds":133,"text":"traditionally witnesses in systems have been a mechanism of like convincing people that data is available because like a bunch of people are like yeah I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=133s"},{"start_seconds":141,"text":"got this walk alright and so but I guess interesting question would be since we started talking about cosmos with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=141s"},{"start_seconds":149,"text":"fisherman aka polka dot aka pokhara exactly so so what would be your like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=149s"},{"start_seconds":158,"text":"short comparison between security model of cosmos and security model of polka dot with fisherman okay so what is and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=158s"},{"start_seconds":166,"text":"this is like this is the core of what we are trying to enable with cosmos which is sooo like my my my history with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=166s"},{"start_seconds":177,"text":"charting does like way back probably you know like 2016 I was like sitting across","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=177s"},{"start_seconds":184,"text":"the desk from Dominic Williams from Definity like we talked about sharding like every single day and charting has these problems which is what one is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=184s"},{"start_seconds":193,"text":"adaptive state corruption and the other one is data availability which are really hard and I kept being like really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=193s"},{"start_seconds":200,"text":"frustrated by by like how hard these things are to bring the market as engineering I actually I think like Alex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=200s"},{"start_seconds":208,"text":"and the near team are like way better engineers than I am and I kind of assumed that like at some point someone","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=208s"},{"start_seconds":216,"text":"like them would come along and start solving these problems but I wanted to figure out whether or not we could build scalable systems without solving these problems and I think there are a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=216s"},{"start_seconds":225,"text":"advantages to having systems that don't solve these problems so the security model of cosmos is a zone can do like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=225s"},{"start_seconds":235,"text":"zone with evil validators or an evil zone you send your money to it and terrible things can happen the validators can steal all your money","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=235s"},{"start_seconds":243,"text":"you're like oh I looked at it zone I read all the source code like it all looks good i audited everything but the evil validators was just like I hate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=243s"},{"start_seconds":251,"text":"sucky he sent me his money and I'm gonna take it all and that's basically what a what fishermen are designed to prevent","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=251s"},{"start_seconds":260,"text":"is fishermen are designed to enable a system where you can assume that if one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=260s"},{"start_seconds":270,"text":"part of the system is is continue like sort of like whatever this relay chain course are etc or whatever you call it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=270s"},{"start_seconds":279,"text":"it's functioning no shard is ever actually going to have like doing invalid state transition isn't going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=279s"},{"start_seconds":285,"text":"be able to steal all your money and so the goal of Cosmos is we're going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=285s"},{"start_seconds":294,"text":"allow this bad thing we're like an evil zone can steal all your money but we're not going to allow the other bad thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=294s"},{"start_seconds":302,"text":"which is an evil zone can corrupt arbitrary system arbitrary block chains around it that it's connected to right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=302s"},{"start_seconds":311,"text":"and I guess a theorem takes up to the further extreme right they also saying we also want to survive a nuclear winter yes right which is strictly not easier","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=311s"},{"start_seconds":321,"text":"yeah I mean a theory what were a Tyrian takes this even like a theorem two point I was taking the system even further is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=321s"},{"start_seconds":330,"text":"they essentially want the system to autonomously recover from like for Mike catastrophic failure almost all of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=330s"},{"start_seconds":339,"text":"validators and I'm skeptical that this happens without essentially losing all security properties but I mean I'm the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=339s"},{"start_seconds":348,"text":"proof of atomic model it works very well yeah but like you know how are you going to get your proof of Vitalik after a nuclear war well you have 50% chance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=348s"},{"start_seconds":357,"text":"that they still operate but so what is the problem that so what can you talk a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=357s"},{"start_seconds":367,"text":"little bit about more about like why the adaptive state corruption problem is so important and and like what why you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=367s"},{"start_seconds":375,"text":"trying to solve it with near and like why fishermen are good right so and and that that is a very different security","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=375s"},{"start_seconds":383,"text":"model between so effectively Cosmo says every zone is completely independent and and you and so I as a user I will use a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=383s"},{"start_seconds":390,"text":"particular zone right I will use a particular zone that zone I will be synchronizing right and for as long as everything stays within the zone that's good and it is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=390s"},{"start_seconds":398,"text":"any IBC happening and to blow into a blockchain communication right yeah if anything happens then either I will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=398s"},{"start_seconds":405,"text":"have to insure myself the security of the zone I can go there and see the validators and say well those validate there's actually legit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=405s"},{"start_seconds":413,"text":"except for that IQ whatever yeah yeah that'd be I don't trust and or I can I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=413s"},{"start_seconds":420,"text":"can just think the zone right right well what we wanted trying to do is we're trying to say so that's get virginia's approach versus homogenius what we're trying to say is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=420s"},{"start_seconds":428,"text":"this a single system which you use as a whole you're not using every shirt separately and so therefore if one shard","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=428s"},{"start_seconds":435,"text":"gets corrupted and tokens arrived and that's actually my question what goes on so in fact we the cosmos that's his zone got corrupted and let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=435s"},{"start_seconds":443,"text":"say that zone was a detriment right and so someone claimed all the diamond tokens and they sent them to another","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=443s"},{"start_seconds":449,"text":"zone which was an exchange on that zone was sufficiently negligent not to verify it and they gave you money the second","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=449s"},{"start_seconds":459,"text":"zone will not be rolled back right that that would be that was that will be attributed to be a failure of the first zone and the exchange which was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=459s"},{"start_seconds":465,"text":"negligent not sue the the the sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=465s"},{"start_seconds":472,"text":"origin thought process of cosmos is so back in the in the distant past there were dinosaurs and there were these people who were working on smart","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=472s"},{"start_seconds":480,"text":"contracts on this website that's still around called rights org now they work in a company called a Doric and they have this really interesting idea and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=480s"},{"start_seconds":490,"text":"like you know it's it comes out of the broader history of object capabilities research basically the idea was that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=490s"},{"start_seconds":497,"text":"like names are really important and what you can do with a distributed computing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=497s"},{"start_seconds":505,"text":"system is assign a namespace to the security properties of the thing so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=505s"},{"start_seconds":514,"text":"let's say you have the e Thurman sound e Thurman son has evil validators they steal everyone's money every token that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=514s"},{"start_seconds":522,"text":"was originated from the e Thurman's own that is floating around caused we'll be like ether mint","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=522s"},{"start_seconds":530,"text":"you know dye or ether mint /a you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=530s"},{"start_seconds":536,"text":"rap or whatever and so let's say that the ether Minh zone was compromised and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=536s"},{"start_seconds":544,"text":"starts doing all this evil stuff the people who are affected are the people who hold things in that namespace but if you hold things in the BMV namespace you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=544s"},{"start_seconds":553,"text":"don't care and that's sort of the approach of cosmos and I think one thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=553s"},{"start_seconds":561,"text":"that's really important to understand is also is the approach that near Protocol is taking and the approach that cosmos","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=561s"},{"start_seconds":569,"text":"is taking are actually fairly complementary go ahead yes an ER will be a zone at some point well you know and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=569s"},{"start_seconds":576,"text":"calling something a zone almost sounds makes it sound like unimportant what the core thing we are trying to achieve with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=576s"},{"start_seconds":584,"text":"cosmos ultimately is not about technology it's about politics and what we are trying to do is have a pattern","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=584s"},{"start_seconds":592,"text":"for interaction and scalability that doesn't require political in a row integration and like if you kind of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=592s"},{"start_seconds":599,"text":"zoom out to like how something like polka dot is different from something it it's cosmos is you know finance is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=599s"},{"start_seconds":607,"text":"building a cosmos zone and using our software but they don't care about the atom holders and they don't need to the atom holders can do whatever they want","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=607s"},{"start_seconds":614,"text":"can just can change their protocols in any way and be and be and by Nantz can continue to do whatever they want and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=614s"},{"start_seconds":622,"text":"think if that wasn't true they wouldn't be using our stuff like that's the the product market fit that we're going for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=622s"},{"start_seconds":629,"text":"and so near protocol could have an amazing community it can have it can be the best most usable blockchain in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=629s"},{"start_seconds":637,"text":"world but there's always going to be somebody who's like I don't like the decisions that this community makes I want to make my own and cosmos is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=637s"},{"start_seconds":644,"text":"basically the way is what we've been trying to do is make sure that the that the rails and the protocols to make","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=644s"},{"start_seconds":652,"text":"those two systems be politically independent but economically still able to interact exist while all these kinds of Awesome block chains on your part","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=652s"},{"start_seconds":660,"text":"come into existence cool and so coming back to your question so the goal of near near protocol design is complete","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=660s"},{"start_seconds":669,"text":"the the use case is completely different right so a new protocol tries to be a single block chain effectively so user will interact not with a particular","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=669s"},{"start_seconds":677,"text":"shirt and ideally user should not even know the shirts exist they just interact with the system and so now what shirt gets corrupted and something goes to now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=677s"},{"start_seconds":686,"text":"they've heard that's a big problem right and so they're from there the question is whether we believe or not the adaptive adversary can actually be that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=686s"},{"start_seconds":694,"text":"fast and can actually corrupt 66% of a shirt and and it feels like it is possible so okay I'll tell you why it is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=694s"},{"start_seconds":703,"text":"possible and this is this is the this is the thing that people don't like to think about when they're building scalable blockchain systems is I don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=703s"},{"start_seconds":712,"text":"have to like break it like corrupting someone validator is not like like you know I'm I'm like sitting there in my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=712s"},{"start_seconds":720,"text":"bedroom in the middle of night like electronica playing like hacking into their computer it's I go to aetherium or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=720s"},{"start_seconds":729,"text":"or a cosmos chain or a Definity or Definity whatever I make a very nice smart contract which it says you know if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=729s"},{"start_seconds":737,"text":"you can show me a valid a fully signed transaction with this invalid state transition in it I will give you a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=737s"},{"start_seconds":744,"text":"million dollars you've adaptively corrupted because people will corrupt themselves and then Algren doesn't help you much because you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=744s"},{"start_seconds":752,"text":"don't need to know the person in advance right yeah it's sufficient for them to prove that they exist right that's I'm from there the question is however algorithm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=752s"},{"start_seconds":761,"text":"so for example let's take a look talk about coldness let's say I'm so rich I can actually I'm capable of corrupting validators in the zone it's actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=761s"},{"start_seconds":769,"text":"relatively easy to reach to them because they in the same disc or channel right right and so so from here they're multiple ways you can go to the disk or channel it exists and then of course","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=769s"},{"start_seconds":778,"text":"most didn't maintain one well there's like polka dot might not have one right well I did the validators will create","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=778s"},{"start_seconds":785,"text":"it's there right exactly then they can hack it especially so this is something that the theorem is a little bit ahead of everybody by having a different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=785s"},{"start_seconds":793,"text":"clients hacking is a little harder but then it could be a bug in the spec that will not save you then it doesn't help to ask","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=793s"},{"start_seconds":801,"text":"people to change you know social engineer change people changing their software and so and so once we think that validators are corruptible and that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=801s"},{"start_seconds":810,"text":"is possible then the second thought is that corruption is probably faster than validator rotation because the usual","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=810s"},{"start_seconds":817,"text":"solution says well let's wrote in validator so fast that the time it takes for you to corrupt them is bigger than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=817s"},{"start_seconds":824,"text":"the time between the rotations but like you you know cosmos is already pretty big right and it's being around not not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=824s"},{"start_seconds":831,"text":"that long and so the state will be large validator rotation they need to download state so polka dots as well they're going to be stateless I don't know how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=831s"},{"start_seconds":840,"text":"well that's going to work so so in my in my analysis it's it's pretty challenging so factor every transaction needs to have all the miracle proofs for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=840s"},{"start_seconds":848,"text":"everything they touch and so transaction which is payment transaction today it's a to account so two public keys and the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=848s"},{"start_seconds":856,"text":"amount and suddenly it will become like 64 shot 256 hashes so it will become","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=856s"},{"start_seconds":863,"text":"like how many 32 times bigger right so and so rotation like realistically is going to be every few days right and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=863s"},{"start_seconds":870,"text":"with a smart contract is going to take 15 seconds right your validator is aware that that can happen that corruption can happen very quickly and so that's why","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=870s"},{"start_seconds":879,"text":"for example like our present design right and kill we commit to whale fishing is very close to a theorem design and the theme of design is very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=879s"},{"start_seconds":886,"text":"susceptible to adaptive corruption right you know validators in advance they they're for a day you go and you corrupt","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=886s"},{"start_seconds":895,"text":"them the chart is corrupted it's a disaster right and so that's why what we're trying to figure out is how do we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=895s"},{"start_seconds":903,"text":"secure it right and so quick quick overview of how you can actually secure it right so fisherman has one approach there's actually two more one approach","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=903s"},{"start_seconds":909,"text":"says have so few shirts that is actually keep possible to validate all of them and that's actually a valid approach if you think about it if you think validators actually someone who in that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=909s"},{"start_seconds":918,"text":"sort of money right so probably 100 people who validate cosmos they quite rich people it's actually possible for them just to launch 100 timers on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=918s"},{"start_seconds":926,"text":"instances for as long as their you work pays for it and they can validate 100 charts so that's one approach it's a perfectly valid approach the second approach which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=926s"},{"start_seconds":934,"text":"seems like very reasonable that like occlusion is gonna be right validating 100 zones by then right yeah I think right or rather I think the opposite is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=934s"},{"start_seconds":943,"text":"also I think it's very very likely that for a while most of the zones will be validated by all the validate is right and the second approach which is more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=943s"},{"start_seconds":952,"text":"futuristic says instead of trusting people that computation was done correctly let them prove to you that it was done correctly this is fancy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=952s"},{"start_seconds":959,"text":"construction called Snorks which allows you to do that but it's super expensive and so I it is unlikely we will see it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=959s"},{"start_seconds":967,"text":"being widely used right there are solutions to they matter labs I think matter laps is the most sophisticated but we're not going to see huge it often","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=967s"},{"start_seconds":975,"text":"write them so fisherman is seems to be the most promising approach and so so I had this idea that I mentioned you on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=975s"},{"start_seconds":982,"text":"the etherium research forums which was which may or may not be a good idea I'm not even sure if it's implementable but it's actually like I don't know I was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=982s"},{"start_seconds":989,"text":"reading your post and like it was the first thing about fishermen's I didn't completely hate and I was like oh I like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=989s"},{"start_seconds":996,"text":"how can you make this better and what I think is probably like the the idea I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=996s"},{"start_seconds":1005,"text":"like is probably some sort of lottery system where the underlying like Merkle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1005s"},{"start_seconds":1012,"text":"transcripts of the of the state execution are like watery tickets and so if you're if you're a fisherman you have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1012s"},{"start_seconds":1021,"text":"an incentive then to I actually go in and look around inside of these state transitions that you're getting looking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1021s"},{"start_seconds":1029,"text":"for watery tickets that you might be able to to make money up and that might give you a really high degree of confidence that there's actually someone","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1029s"},{"start_seconds":1036,"text":"out there looking at these transcripts to get these you know who will also detect as a side","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1036s"},{"start_seconds":1045,"text":"effect this blacks wanted that right so so that that would not complement well fishing that would be a different approach because they cannot be hidden","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1045s"},{"start_seconds":1052,"text":"now right because by saying look this is a transcript of the execution you're saying oh I'm actually looking in the shark right so at that point the moment you publish the transcript","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1052s"},{"start_seconds":1061,"text":"that people versus you says okay this guy I will need to corrupt if I want to take over the short right and so but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1061s"},{"start_seconds":1068,"text":"then but then the effective idea says that there are gonna be so many of them because they fishing for the for the lottery tickets that it will be unfeasible just identify all of them and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1068s"},{"start_seconds":1076,"text":"you're always going to miss one and then the only problem is you need some civil resistance mechanism right you're pinning in that mechanism to a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1076s"},{"start_seconds":1084,"text":"particular sharp but you have a state effectively by fishing you're saying I actually committed to the loading the state so it is unlikely I have too many","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1084s"},{"start_seconds":1092,"text":"of those right well actually we just figured out it is likely but let's say it is unlikely and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1092s"},{"start_seconds":1098,"text":"then what was about to say all right the problem now is that if obviously the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1098s"},{"start_seconds":1107,"text":"payout should be proportional to the state they still need to have a stake otherwise I would be granting private kiss until I get something that that pays me out right and so that means that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1107s"},{"start_seconds":1115,"text":"the whole set of fishermen is still known in advance that's actually people who committed isn't that already the case and well fish in real fish's button","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1115s"},{"start_seconds":1124,"text":"it's not well fish but well fishing well fishing but in well fishing the fisherman's the fishermen are are not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1124s"},{"start_seconds":1132,"text":"revealed like you don't know who's at the very end of the epoch until they rotate you don't know who was fishing where well here the moment they submit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1132s"},{"start_seconds":1140,"text":"one request for for the key they revealed and unless you're you could thorium you could say that they can't cut the fees until the end of the epoch","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1140s"},{"start_seconds":1149,"text":"that's actually becoming a very good idea yeah yeah yeah that's actually sounds pretty cool I really like it I think I finally like beta like we'll see","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1149s"},{"start_seconds":1157,"text":"if it's broken but I think I finally found a Fisher but things I like yeah yeah that's not sounding very cool ya","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1157s"},{"start_seconds":1164,"text":"know so yeah I mean like I mean to a large extent like you know for my view","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1164s"},{"start_seconds":1174,"text":"the view of like what we've been trying to accomplish in cosmos is that like you know I'm I you know I I my background is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1174s"},{"start_seconds":1184,"text":"not even in distributed computing really I build scientific and in instruments before like I started getting into this ball chain stuff like all of us who are in this book who were in the first","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1184s"},{"start_seconds":1193,"text":"generation of arcane stuff are amateurs and so like I've been trying to like build rails and like pathways and roads","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1193s"},{"start_seconds":1201,"text":"for like future people who come down who are better at this than I am to build amazing things and so like you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1201s"},{"start_seconds":1209,"text":"cosmos is the first step there and I think near Protocol is another is a big step yeah cool okay shall we wrap up","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1209s"},{"start_seconds":1216,"text":"here yeah","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g&t=1216s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=_qUnCUZHc5g","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/_qUnCUZHc5g"}