{"id":"Y89EXPkr-Oc","title":"Infinex Vision with DeFi, chain abstraction and NEAR Intents","description":"In this discussion, NEAR co-founder Illia Polosukhin joins Infinex foundersKain Warwick and Jed Watson to explore the future of decentralized finance (DeFi) and chain abstraction. They break down the problems with centralized exchanges, how chain signatures can transform blockchain accessibility, and why DeFi needs better UX and security to reach mass adoption.\n\nThe conversation covers topics like the role of AI in DeFi, why intent-based transactions are the next big thing, and how users should never have to think about chains. Watch now to understand how Infinex and NEAR Intents are shaping the future of finance.\n\nInfinex - https://x.com/infinex_app\nKane - https://x.com/kaiynne?lang=en\nJed - https://x.com/jedwatson?lang=en\nIllia - https://x.com/ilblackdragon\n\nTakeaways:\nChain abstraction is the future: Users shouldn’t need to know which chain they’re on—just like they don’t pick databases when using web apps.\nDeFi’s biggest challenge is usability: Making crypto easier and safer will onboard millions of users from centralized exchanges.\nAI-powered finance is coming: AI can optimize DeFi decisions, making trading and earning effortless for users.\nSecurity must be built-in, not an afterthought: Transparent, non-custodial solutions like Infinex can offer safer alternatives to both DeFi and centralized exchanges.\nMass adoption is the goal: If DeFi can reach 500M+ real users in the next four years, it will become too big to stop.\n\nTimestamps:\n00:00 – Introduction to the NEAR & Infinex partnership\n01:15 – Why chain abstraction matters for the future of DeFi\n03:45 – The problem with centralized exchanges and UX in crypto\n07:00 – DeFi’s complexity: Why users shouldn’t need to think about chains\n10:30 – Security in DeFi: What needs to change\n16:00 – The role of AI in optimizing DeFi and chain interactions\n28:00 – Making DeFi safer and more user-friendly for mainstream adoption\n39:00 – Mass adoption: How DeFi can reach 500M users in four years\n50:00 – How intent-based transactions change the way we use crypto\n56:00 – The vision for Infinex & NEAR: A truly decentralized, user-first financial system\n\nNEAR is the Blockchain for AI\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nNEAR AI: https://near.ai/\nIntents: https://near.org/intents\nChain Abstraction: https://www.proximity.dev/\nSharding: https://nearone.org/\n\nFor the devs\nGitHub: https://github.com/near \nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\nDevhub: https://devhub.near.page/ @NEARDevHub\n\nConnect with socials\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \n#NEAR #nearprotocol #NEARAI","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2025-03-12T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/Y89EXPkr-Oc/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"All right, let's kick it off. Uh, well, I want to welcome you guys. Uh, and, uh, it's exciting to announce the Infinex partnership. We'll dive into it, but maybe let's start with some intros. Yeah, for sure. Um, so Kane Kane uh, founder of Infinex. Um, we are taking down centralized exchanges using, uh, chain signatures. And I'm Jed, CTO of Infinex. um here to help Kane do that. One one centralized exchange at a time or all of them at probably get a few at a time. Yeah, really. I think all of them at once would be best. Hi. Well, I'm Ilia, co-founder of Near and yeah, excited uh excited for partnership, excited to do this. This is something we've been uh thinking about trying to do, you know, building for since the start. Um and yeah maybe to set the stage kind of near started as like hey we need a infrastructure that can you know effectively be scalable and global and at the same time abstracted out from the users so that they don't need to think through like zero hashes Chrome extensions figure out you know gas fees all of that should be kind of hidden away and so a lot of things we've been building kind of since the start was toward for that. And uh kind of end of 22 was where this realization was like, hey, the zero sum game between chains is not productive. And we were okay, if we change our mindset, right? Like, okay, it's not, you know, ch one chain, win winner takes all. Let's try to get every project to build on us, but more how do we bring users to all to all chains, to all applications, to all assets. Uh and so that's kind of where chain signatures are coming from and uh a lot of other pieces of technology we've been building and uh yeah that kind of started I mean we started the conversation we started we started talking and I was like uh the funny thing is that I think even when we first had those conversations I was like sounds cool but like I don't quite get it right it it took me it you know I was like it sounds like cool tech but like I I didn't quite get the application of it right. Um, I was still kind of mid-curving it. I still was living in my like DeFi maxi land of like Yeah. One Yeah. one chain or like EVMS only type world. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that, you know, that's where uh Jed kind of came in, right? He he came in and he was like, \"No, no, I get it.\" Like even if you don't get it, I get it. Yeah. I mean, we we really shouldn't have chains was a thing that I was pushing. Like, and I mean that from the user experience perspective. Users should not know there are chains. Yeah. Oh, if someone's using Binance, they don't know what chain anything's on. It's like you can take Bitcoin and swap it into Doge and then buy some whiff and like that's magic no one realizes. Um, and so yeah, I think coming at it from this like DeFi first perspective, you can get caught in this mindset of like, oh well chain abstraction means you can move stuff between chains and like no no no like chain abain. There is no chain. That was my meme. There's no spoon. There's no there's no spoon. There's no chain. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is an interesting question like what is the future of chain abraction and to to to your point about mid curving I remember I had a call with uh a lot of like top VCs in in this space right who are our backers and I was like chain abstraction it's coming and they were like no it's like like first this space moving too slow you know it's like five years out minimum and I'm like no no it's coming like you know but I think the funny thing about um Infinex that I've been saying to people is like more chains. Once we make chains disappear, give us as many chains as possible because we can make them disappear faster than you can roll them out. Like we don't have enough conduits, right? Like we we need more people spinning up. Well, maybe let's have something decentralized to launch. Ouch. Ouch. But the this is this is where I I I quered out cuz like you start thinking about chains not existing or there being a lot of chains and you're like yeah it's insane that we know about chains at a consumer level. So so I think actually uh somebody used this and I kind of ripped on this as idea like if you consider chain to be like a server right then like yeah as a user I don't need to think about that you need a server to run your stuff. something that we talk about a lot. Like imagine just to sign into a web app, you had to pick the database platform that you were using that they were using to run the web app and also the data center. Like it all of this knowledge about and then you need to make sure you have the money in that data center. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're paying for the electricity literally in the data center. Well, it's like that data center like is is you know it's it's like the example I use is Netflix. So you go to Netflix and it's like first you need to choose which region you're going to be watching movie from like the the data center where was the movie made and it was filmed in Thailand like do you have some bot ready to pay for that oh sorry it's too like too it's too popular right now so you need to pay more to actually watch it yeah and that's why like for us I mean that's why we designed near to like okay it should scale effectively to any amount of usage uh and that's why we took sharding design that's why we're doing a lot of things But at the same time like I real it's the same as like Amazon cloud or any other cloud is like yes there's a lot of use cases of cloud and there's still you know dedicated servers for specific use cases and that's kind of where you need you know a lot more chains for supporting that but an interface is still doesn't need to like have all those details I've been telling Kane this for the whole last year like databases exist for a reason like they're useful technology and there's a lot of different ones like you can go to document databases relational databases like They've got different properties and like as a developer you should know about them and you get database oriented meetups and like we get enthusiasts but the key is that they have these characteristics and you want to pick the database that you should be using for that and once your use case gets sophisticated enough you know what you probably need more than one database like they're a specialist database for specialist use cases and that's a good thing it's also a good thing that users don't know that like all of this is abstracted behind the scenes so I think like the first kind of 10 years of building all of this stuff in defi is about figuring out what sort of things we need, but to actually get this into more people's hands, we need to stop pretending that users are going to care about that or should know the implementation details to use it. Yeah. So, I mean, totally agree that's been that's been our point for the longest time. Uh, which yeah, many disagreed over the years, but it's good to actually the market is catching up. I I mean, one of the crazy things to me um is is how deep in the like we were swimming in the Kool-Aid. We weren't just drinking it, right? Like we were like swimming around in a Kool-Aid swimming pool. And and I think that there was a podcast where I was like, look, you know, people are trying to make things simpler, but that's actually bad. You shouldn't make it simpler. You should make it harder because people need to understand how important the technology is that they're using. And it's like the craziest insane cope that you could ever imagine. Like what are you talking about? Right. Well, so actually a friend of mine who's not from crypto asked like, \"Hey, why is this DeFi so complicated?\" I'm like, \"It's actually valuable because it's complicated because people lose money and don't know where it is and so it just creates so much extra excess liquidity.\" Exact. Well, I think that like also, you know, Jed Jed talks about this as well, like this idea of like not making the user think and and you know, DeFi is like actively hostile. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, DeFi is like you you a factor need to go and like there's a reason why people called farmers is because like it's actually hard work and like a lot of clicks and like you trying to find stuff and so imagine if all of that abstracted. The thing is like all of the things that people learn in crypto will also go away because let's imagine I mean I I use this as a example but if you have like a a bot that you know is farming something it will automatically sell the rewards right there won't be you like and so all the farming will just disappear immediately because like the only reason it exists is because people are not dumping the token right away otherwise it's just not effective mechanism of distribution. Well, you're introducing efficiency and if we've learned one thing like efficiency will win, right? It will someone will introduce it and it will win. Yes. Um, but to this idea of like crypto being hostile, something we have kind of realized is like I've gotten really deep into this whole kind of DJ mindset and I'm like this is so bad. Um, for anyone who's not incentivized to be here, like something that the web learned as it was kind of inflecting in terms of mass adoption in users was don't make me think. Like people don't want to have to learn new ways of thinking to use a thing because the incentive to use a thing normally in any other industry doesn't exist yet. So crypto is kind of like not only designed to make people think but also to make them worry, right? And like can you think of anything more adoption hostile than that? Like so so maybe that that's a good transition to a question of security, right? Because this is one of the arguments, right? And I had that argument with Vitalic on stage was but people should know about the security of the thing, right? And and I think there's there's a lot of kind of directions here, but I'm curious how are you guys thinking about this? It's it's funny. Um, I get that, but it's just another facet of people should know about wallets because wallets are important to know about because of self-custody and decentralization. Um, the idea that people should know about security. Um, again, you know, the like the database analogy is so apt, right? Like I remember um, you know, one of my close friends was the director of engineering at MongoDB and there was a period of time where like people were like databases are solved. like it's a solid problem. Like it's so crazy, but it's like no no we actually solved this. Like was like selling hard. Like they were like sniping everyone saying you only need you only need key value storage with That's all. I just wanted to clarify we didn't build Infinex on MongoDB like for anyone who's just sitting there worrying. Uh yeah, it's it's I look that idea that you need to know how the security works in order to trust it. I like for for most people I disagree. Right. If I trust that my bank vault is secure and hard to get into, I don't know what safe they've installed, I don't know what technology, what R&D went into that. I trust it. And like that's how most people are going to work. And I think with crypto, it's the same. We need to build something that people can trust, but not blame them when they didn't understand it. And it's like you were holding it wrong. But I I think This is the thing though, right? Like the transparency allows for people to come in and inspect it in a way that Tradfi doesn't. Like the the reason why you need regulators in Tradfi is because you have a bunch of user you cannot check. Yeah. There's a bunch of black boxes. Like not everyone should need to check, but like we need some people who are willing to check, right? We need the Zack XTs of the world who are checking everything. Yeah. Like we we need people who are checking. Um, but not everyone needs to check and like it's just not scalable to imagine that everyone needs to understand the consensus mechanism differences between different blockchains. Like bro, like it's just not everybody should come, everybody should go right now and watch the near whiteboard series and watch every single episode which is like 50 plus about every single different consensus of every blockchain. I mean, look, it's good that it's there. We we couldn't be building what we're building if that didn't exist as a foundation to build upon. But if you needed to know how the safe was built in order to put your gold bars in it, right? And if you didn't know exactly how that worked, someone else can walk in and take them off you like we never would have gotten to safety. It's not a product. That's like that's not a product. Like you actually haven't productized the thing, right? like if you need to be a safe engineer to use a safe like no like we have keys you just like turn the key and it like put the key in your pocket you're done right and so so I I think that there is this idea um because we're so enamored as enthusiasts with the technology that like we like you have to know you realize how good it is like come on let me green pill you technology and and it's like no like cuz the alternative is unfortunately that someone you know we talked about this on stage, right? Like a minute ago. If you if you go down this path of everyone must know how this stuff works or they shouldn't be using it, then they're going to end up using something else and that thing will be worse and it will be CZ's database and it's completely opaque and you can't trust it and you don't know what it's doing or even worse than that Sam's database. That's even worse, right? Like and so so I I really think that we have this uh this challenge where it's like we need to just get off like put the crackpipe down and be like let's build something that's usable but built on the right tech. Like take the right tech, build something that's usable and then give people an alternative where they don't need to know they can just use it. And if we can do that now you have a credible threat to Binance, right? You have a credible threat to databases. Yeah. I mean just kind of my argument very similar in the same vein is there's a subset of people who are down level and are understanding the trade-offs and security and there is a user experience that should inform user relevant information right like for example if you buy a token that just got launched it doesn't matter which chain it's on but like you should see that you know hey it has whatever 100 holders it's like one hour one hour uh from launch and you know people can make a decision if they want to do this or not. But uh and potentially you know if the chains are if the underlying databases are not secure like you can mitigate those risks but those that mitigation themselves is done by the people who understand kind of the low level and effectively are I mean solvers and kind of all of this infrastructure layer we we have so many teams building but the product should kind of simplify all that and make it really straightforward. Well, I want to challenge something in sort of crypto here and say that understanding user behavior is such a critical part of security that has been kind of ignored so far, right? Like in a lot of ways, I'd make the case that actually, you know what, my Binance is more secure than my treasure in some respects because if I'm going to withdraw some money, then I've got to pass a a TOTP. Yeah. Right. And I'm going to get an email. I'm going to get an SMS alerting me that something's happening on my account. And like that is actually a valid part of security. So for a lot of people that kind of matters as much as we actually had that in near wallet on the day one. We had 2FA and so I actually had stories where every crypto was stolen for people because of like uh virus on a computer except near because we had 2FA at launch. I mean, the number of people that have gotten in touch with our support team because they've gotten wrecked with their onchain like self-custodied address, which is their recovery address. And the only money they've still got that is safe is the money in their Infinex account is it's it's disturbing. Like no, it's happening all the time. I motivating. We need to solve this. I was like from the day one I was saying like do not show the seed phrase to anyone. So like so near accounts have many keys right this is by design so that you never you should never transport key the private key material should never leave a machine or ideally secure enclave it was created in that's I mean it it worked with pass keys there was no pass keys back then but like the the idea was there is like you you should be able if you want to log in from a different device you scan a QR code from the device you already logged in or you send a link we we can send a link with effectively authorization that rotates the key and adds a new key on a different device. But you should never transport freaking private key because people keep doing screenshot of it on the phone. They do all kinds of things and they get, you know, their cloud get broken and all of the seed phrases are for steal, right? I mean, I no longer think you can be safe in DeFi. Like, just the way things are set up at the moment because one of my favorite stories is actually having like there's this malware that they found something like 60 apps on the Android app store where the app is just taking a screenshot something like every 30 seconds and they're uploading that to some S3 bucket somewhere and then they're off ramping that into a like AI that's just doing OCR and checking for seed phrases and wrecking people's wallets. Yeah. like it's so if you've got a seed phrase written down and you just kind of passed your camera over that at some point and now your money's gone or it's more frequent you have the seed phrase screen right on your in your wallet that show you know save it that's what I'm saying like that should never like that experience should never copy and paste and then there's software that's like your clipboard manager people are going to install without realizing well that's the other thing about yeah I mean addresses like they should be human readable so you can actually like not like the Like I've I've actually when we had the um relief for for Ukraine and we we actually had somebody had a like malicious software on their computer that changed the address where the money was sent. And so it's like we're trying to help people here. What the Right? Like it was small amount but still it was like yeah it's like the address replacer and you know it looks the same like first few characters are the same. They find like similar address to the one you're actually copying. So you don't actually see hopefully the hackers were in the Ukraine. Maybe it got there anyway. Maybe it didn't end up in North Korea. Um but uh so maybe changing a little bit the uh or like kind of continue this idea because this I would say like last year and and big half of this year was the meta was like layer 2's infrastructure data availability uh and in general that's been dominating uh crypto in general. I think DeFi is coming back now in last few days but but broadly and then on our side as well like we've been trying to push consumer crypto for like so long and we were trying to bring it with you know applications like sweat and kai and you know we have games and we have you know hot uh inside telegram but it's been a very like yeah uphill battle because infrastructure is so much more valued you go to VCs and they were like yeah but you know like I'm not going to make money on this and um like I can invest in this like another layer two and you know that's a easy 100x like so how first like I think there's a broader market change so interested how you see that but also how you guys are thinking of changing kind of this VC mindset that like hey applications are not valu the only way is to make them valued right like you know make a valuable application. The good thing about VCs is that they're so herdlike that it doesn't take much actually for them to like completely pivot 180 degrees and forget everything that they knew, right? Um, and you know, enough people getting wrecked on the next L2 and then you flip that around and all of a sudden there's an application or a couple of applications that have done well and they're like, \"Oh, no, no, I love apps. Like I I've loved them the whole time. I've always have. I don't know why you ever thought I didn't love them.\" Um, and so, you know, I think that memeing a new narrative into existence in crypto, um, is an art form, right? Um, but you can do it and if you do it, uh, you know, you pay a heavy cost, right? The early people who do it, early DeFi, right? Maker, you know, Maker paid a heavy cost like 2016, 2017, even nobody believed. Nobody believed everyone even though like it's clearly this is what blockchain is for financial instruments. And I know, right? And like you've got like, you know, and he's he's gotten better, but you got like Vitalic funding it. I mean, like stop building finance, like, you know, build some like unicorns or something, right? And and so I think uh I think that I thought it was the same. Oh, almost almost one unicorn, right? Um and so so I I think that there is this this challenge where it's like um if you if you build a new narrative and you you start a new narrative, you're going to pay a heavy heavy upfront cost for it. And then there's going to be a bunch of fast followers cuz the barriers to entry are so low. And your attention that you actually uh you know get from it can be quite diluted, right? So you look at like Kyber as an example, right? Like you know early decks like you know I mean even like either Delta, right? um IDEX like some of these early people who like were grinding just chewing glass on a daily basis and then it's like sorry you like you know unis swap um you know 1 in like balancer all of these uh these protocols came and and just you know blew past them um so it is dangerous to meme something into existence um but if you can do it then it creates a new category and people will start to you know kind of orient around it I think we've already seen that happening you know so we're we're very excited about it. And I mean to your point about consumer crypto, I think one of the challenges is that building a new game or a new social thing with hard blockchain. It's so hard. It's such a hard thing to do. So, um you know, whereas building uh a new fintech, right? Um like that's not that hard. And it's it's well it's actually easier than web 2. It's easier. Building fintech right now in web two. Well, you need to deal with a lot of stuff. Regulations, custody. Now you're other people trying to start a neo bank, right? Like it's a nightmare. Now you're building Yeah. Now you're building a bank and here you don't need to like you don't need to deal with custody like you need to deal with security for the users but that is yeah the tools are getting way better and uh and yeah you just need to build really good experience. Yeah I think one of the things that is hard is the combination of user experience and being non-custodial. like they've actually been kind of pointed at each other in opposing forces mode for a while now. And like this is actually I mean coming right back to Near, this is one of the things we're really excited about with chain signatures because it it's sort of one of the key pieces of technology that lets us deal with being non-custodial while still being able to kind of understand what the user intent is and map that to the outcome on chain. And so I'm not sure how much this is a thing that we can only do now, but definitely to some extent I think that's true. Um this is part of Kane's sort of founding pitch for Infinex was like well we built all the functionality and no one's using it. So I really like something went wrong. Maybe we also need to care about user experience. Maybe that's what's missing. And then you look at the amount of usage that there is on these centralized exchanges and the the way that people don't need to learn a new way of doing things in order to use them I think is one of the reasons that they're successful. Um coming back to this don't make me think kind of piece. Um yeah I mean ve very valid and I think the I I use this joke that yeah there's been chain abstracted applications there are Binance Coinbase oh Binance is like the best chain abstraction technology the world has ever seen. It's uh 100 million users and uh making ton of money. So if if you're not investing in chain abstraction what are you doing? But in terms of users as well, like I I'd say one of the places where we have actually found a lot of support is this idea of bringing users into DeFi. I mean if we can if we can do this um turns out everyone wants users. Well, it's like everybody wants the users and especially if you can bring them with money. I mean, this is this is a challenge we've been like how do we as we're bringing users, how do we give them more functionality so that they want to bring more money on chain, right? Because actually there's more things to do, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think this has been quite interesting for me. You know, I've been coming to crypto conferences for a long time and there was a period of time where it was like, you know, DeFi summer. People were like, I love, you know, yield farming and like synthetics. Yeah. spend all my time. I spent all my time doing it and they were enthusiasts. They were like kind of fanboys, right? And it was like, \"Okay, cool.\" Um the the last uh couple of days here um where people I think actually get what Infinex is doing. It's people coming up to me that are like, \"Give me your distribution.\" It's like, \"I have a like a golden egg that they want.\" And they're like like they're just coming out of the woodwork and they're like and and it's funny because these are all like early stage DeFi founders and in spite of ourselves like there is a deep intuition that like I need distribution like people get like founders get this but it was like oh well I get distribution by doing an airdrop and now they're like wait there's a new way to get distribution like I just have to get into Infinex and it's like they're like all about it now. Um and so I do think that uh that is one of the things that's most exciting is okay chain abstraction Binance does a really good job of it but everything that happens in Binance the value is captured by Binance whereas if you do chain abstraction and build an onchain exchange everything that happens in that exchange gets passed back through the protocol it goes to like it goes to a it goes to you know all of these protocols and and you know they will reap the rewards of that distribution and there's a really powerful feedback loop there um in a way that you know it's not just being like sucked out into you know the real world. It goes to users as well though like I think one of the things that's going to be really cool about this is if you're earning like there's always an earn page on Binance on Bybit and the centralized exchanges but that's also them use like giving the user an abstracted version of whatever they're able to do with those. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas like with DeFi, you can just go straight to the protocol directly as a user and like where else in in anywhere in finance, right? Um can you actually sort of LP into something directly and get the full benefit of that even if you've only got a 100 bucks? Yeah, I mean that's why so I mean the other kind of as part of the chain abstraction, right? Chain signatures were our first effective like okay well we need to interconnect chains. How do we do that? we need a new way of effectively like near account to be able to be global. But the other side was okay well even after that like the way users think is still not ch like this is still kind of this is this is underlying tech this is a c custody self custody custody tool right and so that's where the intents are coming right and the kind of I think a lot of the conversations about intents have been around like swapping because that's like the simplest you know hey I want I just you know want this much um token for for this. But the reality intent can be as complex and I mean on the eye side I also talk about how this can be natural language you can have you know like you can transact with a restaurant or we can with you know a service with a hotel but on blockchain with DeFi you can also say like hey the earn is actually an intent right and then your solvers can suggest like hey here's a set of protocols that you can like distribute to and this can be an active intent where it's effectively refreshes and updates based on what is the best options right now. So you not just effectively have this abstracted version on Binance which they kind of are doing that themselves but they're taking a huge markup on that but they actually can have literally the auction on hey I have $100 and continuously auctioning off this $100 into whatever the market like money markets or other yield opportunities are around the all of the web three right I mean maybe with some conditions I want to apply and so you can have a lot more interesting complex intents and you can also add whatever the compliance and other frameworks on top of this as well to ensure that you have kind of you know maybe some money markets one KYC people etc. Boom. UK KYC pass this over. So I think there's like kind of this next level of intent that allows to really create kind of defragmentation of liquidity uh across not just swaps but also all of the other functionality you know uh that is happening across web 3. I'm I'm really excited to see like I mean we we kind of introduced the first like foot swaps the easy use case but uh kind of we're excited to see that actually expanding to more and more of uh different functionality and different types of intents. Well, intense hit home, I think, for us in a a really core way because it it couples with something else that we've been talking about a lot, which we've unpicked from a UX perspective, right? And I think like one of the things that's been really preventing sort of DeFi and crypto generally from getting to a better UX has been this like solidification of when actions happen, right? And so in like we started out talking about this kind of separation of you've got the signing and the custody piece. You've got the interface that you're using and then you've got the protocol or the functionality under the hood. And these are like you know separated in this really firm way with well yeah like your signing is in one application handled by one people the front end by another and protocol by a third. Yeah. But not just that you've got to be able to in like swap out any one of these three pieces. So wallets can't really innovate on the signing experience because DAPs are all going to ask them to sign the transaction the same way and DAPs can't really innovate. And I mean it's like one of the things that's so obvious about this is like Rabbi just like piggybacking on the Metam mask API like the fact that they need to do the fact that they have to like vampire attack someone's AP like it's so bearish of like they can't even build a better API. It's easier to just ape into the bad API that someone else already has. But also like protocols are designed in a way that anyone can build a DAP against them. They don't understand the way the user is going to use them. I'm like this is really not how good UX gets built. Like this is I spent a lot of time u actually before I got into crypto in the design system space which is all about getting designers and developers to actually sit together and speak the same language as a starting point, right? to think about building applications the same way. So you can reason across the stack and it's like crypto's taken this to an extreme of we don't you think rebasing tokens are not good uh u good for UX but like it's not just that these things are separate and infinex like we describe it as a vertically integrated sort of application in that we're going from signing to intent to action in one sort of thing that we can reason about. But I don't think it's just that. It's also got to do with like you've got to zoom out and think about the time of when do we ask someone to do a thing. So the DAP prepares a transaction and then it passes it to like it's already mostly been encoded into bytes at this point and then it's passed to the wallet to sign it. Yeah. And wallet tries to like make some sense of it to try to show something to the can do the wallets I mean like the wallet's just like by the way you could lose all your money here, right? Like that's really all I can tell you. I mean that that's I mean one of the reasons because like this is like my first experience with Ethereum was in 2018, right? And I I I tried a bunch of stuff and I'm like this is complete and like cluster Like I'm an engineer. I can I can literally figure out how every single piece is built, but I don't want to use this. Yeah. No, it's it's it's it's super hostile. Um but if we can shift like what you're really getting is you've got an action that unfortunately is encoded in the implementation detail by the time the user is authorizing it. Yeah. So if we can shift that point of authorization earlier to the intent then I think that's actually going to unlock a lot more about what what we need to create a good user experience that's also safe. And this is something I was really excited about when I saw the intense like the near intense stuff that you've been working on. Yeah. You sign a message that says I want to swap this token for this token. You don't like really close to plain English. I mean it's JSON. Well, but we all so near always was JSON, right? All the arguments everything is in JSON. So you actually can read and you know kind of understand what's going on. Yeah. But the thing that uh and we had you know few approaches to actually you can just translate that can be like effectively one to one translated to some English. Absolutely. Like or any other language as well. Um so like I think the more that we can get users to interact with and authorize intents rather than like it's almost like if you wrote a database query and you had to like actually run the execution plan that it gives you like cuz that's specific to the database platform and even version that you're running. You know this is still what we're asking users to do. So it's like it's like trying to optimize it as well so you get like some weird things. It's just like If you've ever tried to follow a complex execution plan like you can't follow them either, right? Databases have the same problem. But there's also other people in the database who are like trying to inject querying you. Yeah. It's like an adversarial like environment as well. No, exactly. Yeah. So I mean intent this the the problem I've been having is like intent sounds very like abstract and like so hard to expl been hard to explain and like I mean kind of a lot of the kind of Cosmos folks have been trying to bring this to market and so part of it been indeed is like without actually having kind of this integration of like signing UX I think intents have also been like too complex for people to reason about because because you're kind of adding one more thing to existing already complex thing, right? So now you have intent, DAP, wallet, execution, solver. So it's like too complex. But you know, if you bring it back and say actually have we we have the kind of you navigating what you want to do and then you can sign what you want to do and then somebody else executes it, right? That simplifies the kind of the picture. Like if you can solve trusting the execution and you can actually authorize the intent, I think it it's just it gets a lot better. It's it's also pretty convenient. I would say that these things line up so well cuz like the things that you're investing in, we've got chain signatures, we've got intents, we've got AI and the things that AI needs to be effective on chain are actually I think very very closely aligned with the things that we need to deliver better UX on chain as well. I mean AI is not different from it's not that different to a user right and and the thing is like you want the AI to do the kind of analysis decision- making you don't want it to plan out how to execute across multiple hubs multiple chains so like issuing an intent from AI makes so much more sense than it figuring out like then you build all of your effectively solver code indexing everything into the same model that's you don't want to do that right so like decoupling that is like hey the like I want to do this you somebody else should figure out how to achieve that and uh again like it's not just for swaps it can be for any complex action and any real world action uh like I'm really excited about the intents where you can get fiat right because you can say hey I want to you know I have some bitcoin and I want some dollars in my bank account just you know somebody somebody can execute this I'm sure there's people with licenses they can do this I mean it may take you know some period of time there needs to be dispute resolution there needs to be like set of conditions. But you know that is kind of and the same is like hey I have some black dragon you know memecoin I want to get a flight you know from Bangkok to Lisbon right so like there's ways to effectively start bridging with the real world which is I'm I'm really excited because that was the other thing is like yes we built all of this effectively online casino which is great and like there is you know use cases for that um but even better if we and actually build in all the real world stuff into this as well. You mean we have to interact with the real world? And then who knew? And now and now imagine all of this financial tooling that we've been building is actually can be leveraged to uh to actually interact with real world like how much more efficient than trend fire we can be right and you know we need to bring some of the compliance we need to bring some of the tooling around that but um like everybody's happy to do that to actually like integrate this but we need a new method where like the threadf execution can also participate in effectively intent in a similar way how you do this on chain. And I think that's like the vampire attack, right, of like just carving off some use cases and, you know, letting letting uh tradi kind of experience the better execution, better transparency, better, you know, outcomes, right? More efficient markets really. That's what we're all you know this is the the thing I think about where the frustration with the current well not current former currently yeah transitional um you know the the uh the regulatory um environment uh over the last four years has been so frustrating because it's like no we are getting better outcomes these are more we all want official markets well well it it was more like the defi worked like Alamina needed to pay back their DeFi loans before bank bankring like you cannot do the that FTX did on chain. Exactly. You just like everybody would have found out if they siphon any money out of smart contract immediately and your regulation you they had a regulated entity. Right. So like regulations don't work. They didn't work. Yeah. Exactly. It wasn't like they weren't regulated. They had plenty of licenses. Right. There's just no oversight. And that's the problem is you know a smart person with an opaque system is always going to outflank a regulator, right? like it's it's a whack-a-mole game, right? Whereas if you have onchain transparency, all of a sudden you're going to get better outcomes. But the problem is that I think we all realized a few years ago that it wasn't even about that anymore. It wasn't like oh this is going to be more efficient or we disagree or like you know there's a like a um sort of you know reasoned argument of like maybe this isn't the right approach. It was like no no this is actually us losing control because our job is to regulate things. If your job is to regulate things and someone's like, well, I've actually built a technology that doesn't require you anymore, you're probably not going to enjoy that very much, like that's not a good day for you, right? So, it's like actually no, we don't believe that you can even do this because also conveniently, we need a job, right? So, I mean, my my always pointed because this question came up a lot of times. I'm like, well actually the job in this world is you should be effectively the design partner for the UX where you actually like if your job is to protect consumers and protect investors. Well, this is transparent tooling. You can have your own registry on chain where people can register their assets as they launch them. you can augment them with additional information and then you can have effectively a standard for wallets and applications to surface this information so investors are protected right it's not let's shut everything down and then indeed it's a welcome because this is decentralized technology anybody anywhere can launch something the barriers are too low right like it's just you're not going to be able to stop it yeah I mean we have like uh one of the things we have decentralized front ends on near we have literally serving websites from the blockchain which like anybody can access And so the reality is somebody you know the cat in uh you know from the moon can ship code that is fully working app that you know effectively unstoppable until you know if you like shut down everything everywhere right and so so like the reality is like you cannot actually stop this like if you want if you want to participate in as a regulator you need to come in and actually be part of the network right you but I think this is the thing they were like what if we can shut down the networks right like they were still in this mindset of like okay we can't shut down the near chain, but if we can choke it off, then like maybe it'll just die, right? And it's like, well, how did that work out for you? Yeah. So, I mean, that that's maybe like a a good I mean, obviously we've had, you know, US elections, things are ch wins are changing. Um, how do you see kind of next four years of the crypto evolution? I I think it's honestly shocking even to me right and even to people who've been building in the space as this new reality has kind of dawned that like how much we've been twisting ourselves into knots even you know I'm pretty aggressive right like I'm I'm willing to push the envelope and even I've been like wait a second would I have done this if this were you know would I have done this thing would I have made this decision would I have a hedged this way and the answer keeps being like no no I wouldn't have I would have done it in a much more straightforward way. I would have done this differently. I would have done this differently. And again, I'm on the like risk on side of the spectrum. LFG side. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And so, you know, when you think about the collective impact that that's had on everyone where everyone's second guessing their decisions, everyone's looking over their shoulders. I mean, I don't know how many millions of dollars we paid to lawyers. Like that's I mean, and for nothing for real, like I don't say nothing but like as insurance money almost, right? Well, insurance and also like my my my biggest example is when we were launching the network, right? You need to distribute tokens to people and the way you do it is it's hardcoded in Genesis and by the way we've done the network was launched in decentralized way. We've published Genesis the coded there validators uh that participated in a test uh network all came together and started this network and then they voted on unlocking the transfers right straight to jail. But at the same time, we had a ton of paperwork for all the backers on receiving tokens. We had broker dealer uh transfers. We had all of the stuff done in the middle which like it's just a paper layer on top of what actually was happening, right? And so that like that dichotomy to me never made sense, right? It's like you're doing all this paperwork which is like we are transferring assets here. The assets are here. Like if we can work on are still there. It's still happening, right? Exactly. Yeah. It's like this. It's not It's, you know, it's trying to describe what's happening in reality in some other way, right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, what's kind of been annoying for me over the last year is just how much this isn't adding any value. Well, I mean, that's what I mean. It's like there was no zero value added. Like the the transfer happened on chain. Like if this contract is like voided or something, we cannot undo the transfer. Like there there are a lot of problems in the space that I think are genuinely things we need to address to protect consumers and this does come back to like understanding education security. There are so many ways there are way more ways than I was expecting that you can get wrecked on chain and it's not like we can't invent solutions to those problems and we are but yeah this stuff is is definitely making it harder to make it better and that's weird. So I I mean I always yeah I would say like it's a pro it should be a product approach not the regulatory approach the product the product here is indeed like when you go you know a simple example when you ask a new asset you should know information about the asset right like right now when you go to any chain you know the only thing may like the only like a swap that maybe shows you that this token is like not in a white list what the hell that means who decides on a white list right it doesn't show me any information if I want to find information I need to like dig in into like a bunch of stuff. Now there's a little bit better tools now as like Dex screener and stuff like this, but the reality is it's still like it's not hey here is what you need to know. here is you know here's the risks here is the and you can make a decision right like you know people who trading are adults but then on the other side I mean there is institutions who have the compliance requirements well let's make it easy for them to participate right yes they cannot put money into a common pool great well intents actually don't require that right now you can be the counterparty and if your counterparty requires a KYC or KYB or whatever the like at the station needs you can attach that to your with your intent and now when parties matched you have uh you have this. So like we can actually implement compliance in whatever way like anything that describable by mathematic mathematics we can implement just it needs to be like actually described. It needs to be described. Yeah, the description is the problem. And and I think like you know this is this is again the the overhead that's been incurred in in people because we're guessing. because we're guessing. You're like, \"What might someone do in the future?\" Like that. It's a nightmare, right? And and again, I think that like even in the last week for for me, I've realized things that I thought that I was like, \"Okay, I'm pushing the envelope here, right? Like I'm I'm you know, going like the bleeding edge.\" I'm like, \"No, no, no. There's a lot more edge. Like you can go way further out, right?\" And all of a sudden, you're like, if we open up the design space, right, and we say, \"What are we actually trying to solve for? We're trying to solve for like transparency for the user. We're trying to solve for efficient markets, etc. And we don't need to look over our shoulder. I think the market can solve these problems really, really quickly. And there will be a lot of competition to try and do it. Um, and also you've just unlocked the whole of the United States, which is a fairly innovative country, it turns out, right? Like, you know, you can switch that country back on and people are like, \"Oh, I can do things again.\" It's like, it's amazing, right? It's going to be a much more efficient market. So, I'm super bullish. I think we've got my view is we've got like four years for mass adoption and if we can land mass adoption in four years it doesn't matter what happens after that because it's too big for anyone you know you can like 3 years ago four years ago can we choke it to death and kill it in the cradle like no but you could maybe clearly not clearly no but you could try you might think you could try in four years time if we get mass adoption and we actually get like real users using this No one will be dumb enough. Maybe Elizabeth Warren, but like literally other than her, no one will be dumb enough to think that they can pull this off and it will it's game over, right? And then it doesn't matter whether it's Democrats that are cry pro crypto, if the Republicans flip anti- it doesn't matter if it's the EU doing EU nonsense. It's embedded into the it's embedded. It's there. And we've got mass adoption, which for me, I think we need like 500 million real users. like get 500 million real users across the world. Too big to fail. Like you can't switch it off. I still have my goal of billion users by I think in 21 I said in 5 years. So by 26. Okay. Yeah. I mean we're we're at 30 million right now. So you know we actually had 10x growth every year so far. And I mean this year's like up till now it's 3x. So we had 10 million beginning of the year. So still still some room for for I mean I'm I'm hoping you guys can Yeah, that's kind of the job here. Yeah. So maybe just like uh one last question. Um I think like indeed you know DeFi and Ethereum there's a lot of enthusiasts but most traded assets are like uh been not Ethereum not Ethereum assets right it's been actually Bitcoin it's XRP it's uh BNB it's all all the things and so how are you thinking about kind of both attracting those kind of holders and and users as well does effectively bringing users out of centralized venues um as well as obviously new users coming in. I I think one of the mistakes that we've made in DeFi and certainly Ethereum DeFi is convincing ourselves that what we can do is what we should do right and and not saying well actually if we need to do something we can't do it yet let's figure out a way to do it. um we've we've gone about it from the wrong perspective, right? So um you know, we don't have to uh hypothesize about which assets people want to hold. There's a scoreboard. Like go to Coin Gecko, right? Like XRP is in the top 10 assets. It means that people want it. It doesn't matter whether you want them to want it or whether you think it's a scam or whatever. Like there is demand for that asset. And if you go to a Binance user or a Bybit user and pick one at random and say like, \"What are you holding?\" they're going to say XRP or Litecoin or Bitcoin Cash or some other random thing and it's probably not going to be an SPL token or an ERC20 token, right? Um, and if you can't accommodate those assets inside DeFi, then you are just limiting the users that you're going to be able to attract. And so we need to be able, and this is the thing, like it's going to be insane for an XRP user to be on chain all of a sudden and see that there's like so much 5% yield on like Athena, right? They're going to be like, \"What have I been doing with my life?\" Right? Like, but at the moment, they're isolated. They'll never see that. And so, if we can bring an XRP user on chain, you know, like we don't need them to sell their XRP. We just need them to know that they can borrow against it and get some yield. And it's going to open up possibilities, but we can't expect them to have to go through a bunch of hoops to be able to get to that point. We just have to let them click a button, find out the thing we want to do, click a button, get the yield, and we will onboard all of these users who are stuck on centralized exchanges. Yeah, I think there are three problems that we need to solve to get users. And two of them are actually the same problem. So there's kind of two, but one is like UX, make it easy, don't make me think. And the other one that's actually the same problem is making it secure. I think you can I I think we can make a case and I I want to make sure we can always stand behind this that Infinex is the safest place to hold your crypto for most people, right? Like we've seen already with the number of people who've had their other address that they've had linked wrecked. Infinex is just safer for for so many of our users than whatever they were doing to custody their own stuff on chain was. Um, and then for people in a centralized exchange, you've got the same argument from a different perspective where it's actually transparent and you can see it and you're not going to get FDXed, right? So, there's a couple of reasons that I think that is a credible claim and and one of our northstars. Um, and the third thing is then once you can solve that, I think you can get the referrals like how should I how can I get in like what what's the barbecue story, right? You got some mates on at the weekend and they're not in crypto. It's like, well, how would I hold some Doge? Like I've I've heard about this sort of what is the department of governmental inefficient like okay how do I how do I get into that and like okay you're starting there fine infinex right that should be the answer um and it can be the answer in for everyone who's in defi because it's defi right like I think one of the secret things here is we're trying to design this in a way where if infinex succeeds then defi succeeds So, you know, everyone in Dece and have them use the random stuff that everyone is doing. And once you get there, this third piece is like it's just more interesting like that innovation. We don't have to do that part. Defi is doing it. We just have to link the users into that space and make it better. Awesome. And maybe then just one more last thing because uh we've been talking how near is also really uh leaning into AI and from my perspective AI is effectively the interface. It's going to be becoming more and more how we interact with computing broadly and curious how you guys are thinking about this. But from my perspective, uh, so one of the challenges with DeFi is that there is so many different routes and there's so many different options. And what AI is really good at is effectively being able to navigate the very complex kind of multi-dimensional space in a natural way and kind of having this conversation instead of, you know, a user interface where you like, you know, have 50 options and you're trying to do things. But there's also another side which is what we're working on is effectively recommendations and so like can we have a feed of things that will be useful for you uh directly because of what you've asked before what we know about you as well as what other people are doing. Yeah. Well, this is really convenient for us cuz one of the first comments that I made last year when we were starting Infinex um was actually to do with AI and like Kane was the starting point was obviously synthetics and like how do we get more people trading by fixing the UX but if you open a buy bit account today one of the first things that they show you is actually their AI interface and you can ask it what the markets are doing today. You can get sentiment analysis, you can get recommendations, and they'll link that to a button that you can click to open a per position or buy an option. And like this is actually the direction that they're going in. And so, you know, right at the start I was thinking it's one thing to build an a user interface where it's all sort of text inputs and buttons that you're clicking. But if we just build that, we're also then going to have to deal with the fact that we're just skating to where the puck was, you know, and the puck is clearly heading off in the direction of AI and all the different kinds of interactions that that actually opens up. So, I think it actually fits in really neatly uh what you're doing and what we're doing. I think one advantage as well with Infinex um is we are a wall garden at first, right? Um we're like, you know, the AOL, which I don't love the analogy, but like it it is apt, right? Um what that means is that yes, AI is great at like going and you know, running through a million different things. Um, but it also means that there's a lot of jeopardy, right, around like what if it chooses the 999,000 thing that's going to wreck you, right? Um, and if we have a set of contracts that have Lindy, a set of, uh, you know, platforms that we'll give people access to that we're comfortable with from like a risk perspective, all of a sudden you've got like a curated thing where it's like, choose from these without, you know, going and you might be able to unlock it and go into like the open web version of DeFi and be like, \"Yeah, yolo, you know, put put 10% of my assets and like go find me the crazy yield, right?\" Um, and and but you know, for the average user, one of the critical things is you need to keep them safe, right? We need to keep them safe. We need to be very opinionated about how to keep a user safe. Um, the last thing we want to do is be like, hey, we've got a safer version of Binance and then we send them to Cream Finance and wreck them, right? Like that's not a good outcome. So we need to we need to curate uh these outcomes so that uh and I think that that that constrained solution space for an AI actually is quite good because a user then doesn't need to sense check the AI and they can be like well anything that recommends within this set is going to be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean one thing that I mean not not uh in short term but we're starting to invest is actually a effectively end to end form ofification which should include smart contracts transactions and intents and so ideally in the intent yourself you say hey and I don't I'm not going to lose money for example and so your literally intent will not match with any set of actions that I'm not willing to I'm not willing to say that there's a trade there that's that's a that's a future But I mean the conditions are obviously more wide. But I'm just saying like the fu the future actually will be about the intent itself specifying effectively level of risk and level of kind of opportunity. Are you looking? Yeah. I mean I think one of the other um like what would be a really good outcome here is hopefully that we can just do this faster because of AI. I mean we're even on the team right some of our developers are sort of the AI developer man. They're just cranking code. They're like man find me those Tailwind classes make my thing like this. Um, but you know, I just made a bunch of like I my design skill is like doesn't exist and I just made a bunch of mocks like with this tool for the presentation. Like I didn't need to go to designer because like with designer I need to go back bunch back and forth here. I just like oh well actually I want it this way. No, I change the colors you know make it like this. And so I like created like you know 50 screens pick two put it on my slides. Yeah. I mean I I'll walk back the statement. It doesn't matter anymore cuz I can hear our design team's hearts breaking in real time. Like it it matters. It it does it matters. Yeah, we we we we love we we really love our design team. But like it does actually have a large productivity kind of uplift. And then once like the work that you're doing with Intense and coupling that with AI, you know, we should be able to get to the more interesting stuff faster because of this. That would be that would be a great outcome. Well, I'm I'm excited with Intense and Fiat to start as well. Exactly. We need like pretty much annihilate the choke point type opportunity completely. Uh I guess the last question. Are you renaming to AI FX? Yeah. No, I've had enough. No more rebrands for me. I've had one too many rebrands. I'm good. I'm good. I think we're out of time. Thanks for sitting down. It was amazing conversation and I'm excited to see, you know, 100 million users from you by end of year. Yeah. All right, let's go. Awesome.","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:01:08.913Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":0,"text":"All right, let's kick it off. Uh, well, I want to welcome you guys. Uh, and, uh, it's exciting to announce the Infinex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=0s"},{"start_seconds":9,"text":"partnership. We'll dive into it, but maybe let's start with some intros.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=9s"},{"start_seconds":13,"text":"Yeah, for sure. Um, so Kane Kane uh, founder of Infinex. Um, we are taking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=13s"},{"start_seconds":20,"text":"down centralized exchanges using, uh, chain signatures.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=20s"},{"start_seconds":25,"text":"And I'm Jed, CTO of Infinex. um here to help Kane do that. One one centralized exchange at a time or all of them at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=25s"},{"start_seconds":33,"text":"probably get a few at a time. Yeah, really. I think all of them at once would be best. Hi. Well, I'm Ilia, co-founder of Near and yeah, excited uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=33s"},{"start_seconds":42,"text":"excited for partnership, excited to do this. This is something we've been uh thinking about trying to do, you know,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=42s"},{"start_seconds":49,"text":"building for since the start. Um and yeah maybe to set the stage kind of near started as like hey we need a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=49s"},{"start_seconds":57,"text":"infrastructure that can you know effectively be scalable and global and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=57s"},{"start_seconds":64,"text":"at the same time abstracted out from the users so that they don't need to think through like zero","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=64s"},{"start_seconds":71,"text":"hashes Chrome extensions figure out you know gas fees all of that should be kind of hidden away and so a lot of things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=71s"},{"start_seconds":78,"text":"we've been building kind of since the start was toward for that. And uh kind of end of 22 was where this realization","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=78s"},{"start_seconds":87,"text":"was like, hey, the zero sum game between chains is not productive.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=87s"},{"start_seconds":91,"text":"And we were okay, if we change our mindset, right? Like, okay, it's not, you know, ch one chain, win winner takes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=91s"},{"start_seconds":100,"text":"all. Let's try to get every project to build on us, but more how do we bring users to all to all chains, to all applications, to all assets. Uh and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=100s"},{"start_seconds":109,"text":"that's kind of where chain signatures are coming from and uh a lot of other pieces of technology we've been building and uh yeah that kind of started I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=109s"},{"start_seconds":118,"text":"we started the conversation we started we started talking and I was like uh the funny thing is that I think even when we first had those conversations I was like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=118s"},{"start_seconds":128,"text":"sounds cool but like I don't quite get it right it it took me it you know I was like it sounds like cool tech but like I I didn't quite get the application of it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=128s"},{"start_seconds":137,"text":"right. Um, I was still kind of mid-curving it. I still was living in my like DeFi maxi land of like Yeah. One Yeah. one chain or like EVMS only type","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=137s"},{"start_seconds":146,"text":"world. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that, you know, that's where uh Jed kind of came in, right? He he came in and he was like, \"No, no, I get it.\" Like even if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=146s"},{"start_seconds":154,"text":"you don't get it, I get it. Yeah. I mean, we we really shouldn't have chains was a thing that I was pushing. Like,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=154s"},{"start_seconds":161,"text":"and I mean that from the user experience perspective. Users should not know there are chains. Yeah. Oh, if someone's using Binance, they don't know what chain anything's on. It's like you can take","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=161s"},{"start_seconds":170,"text":"Bitcoin and swap it into Doge and then buy some whiff and like that's magic no one realizes. Um, and so yeah, I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=170s"},{"start_seconds":178,"text":"coming at it from this like DeFi first perspective, you can get caught in this mindset of like, oh well chain abstraction means you can move stuff between chains and like no no no like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=178s"},{"start_seconds":186,"text":"chain abain. There is no chain. That was my meme. There's no spoon. There's no there's no spoon. There's no chain.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=186s"},{"start_seconds":192,"text":"Yeah. Yeah. I think this is an interesting question like what is the future of chain abraction and to to to your point about mid curving I remember I had a call with uh a lot of like top","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=192s"},{"start_seconds":201,"text":"VCs in in this space right who are our backers and I was like chain abstraction it's coming and they were like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=201s"},{"start_seconds":209,"text":"no it's like like first this space moving too slow you know it's like five years out minimum and I'm like no no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=209s"},{"start_seconds":216,"text":"it's coming like you know but I think the funny thing about um Infinex that I've been saying to people is like more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=216s"},{"start_seconds":223,"text":"chains. Once we make chains disappear, give us as many chains as possible because we can make them disappear faster than you can roll them out. Like we don't have enough conduits, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=223s"},{"start_seconds":232,"text":"Like we we need more people spinning up.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=232s"},{"start_seconds":234,"text":"Well, maybe let's have something decentralized to launch. Ouch. Ouch.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=234s"},{"start_seconds":239,"text":"But the this is this is where I I I quered out cuz like you start thinking about chains not existing or there being","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=239s"},{"start_seconds":247,"text":"a lot of chains and you're like yeah it's insane that we know about chains at a consumer level. So so I think actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=247s"},{"start_seconds":256,"text":"uh somebody used this and I kind of ripped on this as idea like if you consider chain to be like a server right then like yeah as a user I don't need to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=256s"},{"start_seconds":264,"text":"think about that you need a server to run your stuff. something that we talk about a lot. Like imagine just to sign into a web app, you had to pick the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=264s"},{"start_seconds":273,"text":"database platform that you were using that they were using to run the web app and also the data center. Like it all of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=273s"},{"start_seconds":281,"text":"this knowledge about and then you need to make sure you have the money in that data center. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're paying for the electricity literally in the data center. Well, it's like that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=281s"},{"start_seconds":290,"text":"data center like is is you know it's it's like the example I use is Netflix.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=290s"},{"start_seconds":293,"text":"So you go to Netflix and it's like first you need to choose which region you're going to be watching movie from like the the data center where was the movie made","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=293s"},{"start_seconds":301,"text":"and it was filmed in Thailand like do you have some bot ready to pay for that oh sorry it's too like too it's too","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=301s"},{"start_seconds":309,"text":"popular right now so you need to pay more to actually watch it yeah and that's why like for us I mean that's why we designed near to like okay it should","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=309s"},{"start_seconds":317,"text":"scale effectively to any amount of usage uh and that's why we took sharding design that's why we're doing a lot of things But at the same time like I real","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=317s"},{"start_seconds":325,"text":"it's the same as like Amazon cloud or any other cloud is like yes there's a lot of use cases of cloud and there's still you know dedicated servers for specific use cases and that's kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=325s"},{"start_seconds":333,"text":"where you need you know a lot more chains for supporting that but an interface is still doesn't need to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=333s"},{"start_seconds":341,"text":"have all those details I've been telling Kane this for the whole last year like databases exist for a reason like they're useful technology and there's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=341s"},{"start_seconds":349,"text":"lot of different ones like you can go to document databases relational databases like They've got different properties and like as a developer you should know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=349s"},{"start_seconds":356,"text":"about them and you get database oriented meetups and like we get enthusiasts but the key is that they have these characteristics and you want to pick the database that you should be using for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=356s"},{"start_seconds":364,"text":"that and once your use case gets sophisticated enough you know what you probably need more than one database like they're a specialist database for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=364s"},{"start_seconds":371,"text":"specialist use cases and that's a good thing it's also a good thing that users don't know that like all of this is abstracted behind the scenes so I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=371s"},{"start_seconds":379,"text":"like the first kind of 10 years of building all of this stuff in defi is about figuring out what sort of things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=379s"},{"start_seconds":386,"text":"we need, but to actually get this into more people's hands, we need to stop pretending that users are going to care about that or should know the implementation details to use it. Yeah.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=386s"},{"start_seconds":395,"text":"So, I mean, totally agree that's been that's been our point for the longest time. Uh, which yeah, many disagreed over the years, but it's good to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=395s"},{"start_seconds":404,"text":"actually the market is catching up. I I mean, one of the crazy things to me um is is how deep in the like we were","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=404s"},{"start_seconds":413,"text":"swimming in the Kool-Aid. We weren't just drinking it, right? Like we were like swimming around in a Kool-Aid swimming pool. And and I think that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=413s"},{"start_seconds":420,"text":"there was a podcast where I was like, look, you know, people are trying to make things simpler, but that's actually bad. You shouldn't make it simpler. You","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=420s"},{"start_seconds":429,"text":"should make it harder because people need to understand how important the technology is that they're using. And it's like the craziest insane cope that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=429s"},{"start_seconds":437,"text":"you could ever imagine. Like what are you talking about? Right. Well, so actually a friend of mine who's not from crypto asked like, \"Hey, why is this DeFi so complicated?\" I'm like, \"It's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=437s"},{"start_seconds":446,"text":"actually valuable because it's complicated because people lose money and don't know where it is and so it just creates so much extra excess","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=446s"},{"start_seconds":453,"text":"liquidity.\" Exact. Well, I think that like also, you know, Jed Jed talks about this as well, like this idea of like not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=453s"},{"start_seconds":460,"text":"making the user think and and you know, DeFi is like actively hostile. Yeah.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=460s"},{"start_seconds":464,"text":"Yeah. I mean, DeFi is like you you a factor need to go and like there's a reason why people called farmers is because like it's actually hard work and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=464s"},{"start_seconds":472,"text":"like a lot of clicks and like you trying to find stuff and so imagine if all of that abstracted. The thing is like all of the things that people learn in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=472s"},{"start_seconds":480,"text":"crypto will also go away because let's imagine I mean I I use this as a example but if you have like a a bot that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=480s"},{"start_seconds":489,"text":"know is farming something it will automatically sell the rewards right there won't be you like and so all the farming will just disappear immediately","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=489s"},{"start_seconds":496,"text":"because like the only reason it exists is because people are not dumping the token right away otherwise it's just not effective mechanism of distribution.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=496s"},{"start_seconds":503,"text":"Well, you're introducing efficiency and if we've learned one thing like efficiency will win, right? It will someone will introduce it and it will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=503s"},{"start_seconds":511,"text":"win. Yes. Um, but to this idea of like crypto being hostile, something we have kind of realized is like I've gotten really deep into this whole kind of DJ","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=511s"},{"start_seconds":520,"text":"mindset and I'm like this is so bad. Um, for anyone who's not incentivized to be here, like something that the web","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=520s"},{"start_seconds":528,"text":"learned as it was kind of inflecting in terms of mass adoption in users was don't make me think. Like people don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=528s"},{"start_seconds":536,"text":"want to have to learn new ways of thinking to use a thing because the incentive to use a thing normally in any other industry doesn't exist yet. So","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=536s"},{"start_seconds":544,"text":"crypto is kind of like not only designed to make people think but also to make them worry, right? And like can you think of anything more adoption hostile","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=544s"},{"start_seconds":552,"text":"than that? Like so so maybe that that's a good transition to a question of security, right? Because this is one of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=552s"},{"start_seconds":560,"text":"the arguments, right? And I had that argument with Vitalic on stage was but people should know about the security of the thing, right? And and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=560s"},{"start_seconds":570,"text":"think there's there's a lot of kind of directions here, but I'm curious how are you guys thinking about this? It's it's funny. Um, I get that, but it's just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=570s"},{"start_seconds":579,"text":"another facet of people should know about wallets because wallets are important to know about because of self-custody and decentralization. Um,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=579s"},{"start_seconds":587,"text":"the idea that people should know about security. Um, again, you know, the like the database analogy is so apt, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=587s"},{"start_seconds":595,"text":"Like I remember um, you know, one of my close friends was the director of engineering at MongoDB and there was a period of time where like people were","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=595s"},{"start_seconds":602,"text":"like databases are solved. like it's a solid problem. Like it's so crazy, but it's like no no we actually solved this.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=602s"},{"start_seconds":609,"text":"Like was like selling hard. Like they were like sniping everyone saying you only need you only need key value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=609s"},{"start_seconds":616,"text":"storage with That's all. I just wanted to clarify we didn't build Infinex on MongoDB like for anyone who's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=616s"},{"start_seconds":623,"text":"just sitting there worrying. Uh yeah, it's it's I look that idea that you need to know how the security works in order","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=623s"},{"start_seconds":631,"text":"to trust it. I like for for most people I disagree. Right. If I trust that my bank vault is secure and hard to get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=631s"},{"start_seconds":639,"text":"into, I don't know what safe they've installed, I don't know what technology, what R&D went into that. I trust it. And like that's how most people are going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=639s"},{"start_seconds":647,"text":"work. And I think with crypto, it's the same. We need to build something that people can trust, but not blame them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=647s"},{"start_seconds":656,"text":"when they didn't understand it. And it's like you were holding it wrong. But I I think This is the thing though, right? Like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=656s"},{"start_seconds":663,"text":"the transparency allows for people to come in and inspect it in a way that Tradfi doesn't. Like the the reason why you need regulators in Tradfi is because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=663s"},{"start_seconds":671,"text":"you have a bunch of user you cannot check. Yeah. There's a bunch of black boxes. Like not everyone should need to check, but like we need some people who","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=671s"},{"start_seconds":678,"text":"are willing to check, right? We need the Zack XTs of the world who are checking everything. Yeah. Like we we need people who are checking. Um, but not everyone","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=678s"},{"start_seconds":687,"text":"needs to check and like it's just not scalable to imagine that everyone needs to understand the consensus mechanism differences between different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=687s"},{"start_seconds":695,"text":"blockchains. Like bro, like it's just not everybody should come, everybody should go right now and watch the near whiteboard series and watch every single","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=695s"},{"start_seconds":703,"text":"episode which is like 50 plus about every single different consensus of every blockchain. I mean, look, it's good that it's there.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=703s"},{"start_seconds":710,"text":"We we couldn't be building what we're building if that didn't exist as a foundation to build upon. But if you needed to know how the safe was built in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=710s"},{"start_seconds":719,"text":"order to put your gold bars in it, right? And if you didn't know exactly how that worked, someone else can walk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=719s"},{"start_seconds":726,"text":"in and take them off you like we never would have gotten to safety. It's not a product. That's like that's not a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=726s"},{"start_seconds":733,"text":"product. Like you actually haven't productized the thing, right? like if you need to be a safe engineer to use a safe like no like we have keys you just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=733s"},{"start_seconds":742,"text":"like turn the key and it like put the key in your pocket you're done right and so so I I think that there is this idea um because we're so enamored as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=742s"},{"start_seconds":750,"text":"enthusiasts with the technology that like we like you have to know you realize how good it is like come on let","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=750s"},{"start_seconds":757,"text":"me green pill you technology and and it's like no like cuz the alternative is unfortunately that someone you know we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=757s"},{"start_seconds":765,"text":"talked about this on stage, right? Like a minute ago. If you if you go down this path of everyone must know how this stuff works or they shouldn't be using","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=765s"},{"start_seconds":773,"text":"it, then they're going to end up using something else and that thing will be worse and it will be CZ's database and it's completely opaque and you can't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=773s"},{"start_seconds":781,"text":"trust it and you don't know what it's doing or even worse than that Sam's database. That's even worse, right? Like and so so I I really think that we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=781s"},{"start_seconds":790,"text":"this uh this challenge where it's like we need to just get off like put the crackpipe down and be like let's build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=790s"},{"start_seconds":798,"text":"something that's usable but built on the right tech. Like take the right tech, build something that's usable and then give people an alternative where they don't need to know they can just use it.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=798s"},{"start_seconds":808,"text":"And if we can do that now you have a credible threat to Binance, right? You have a credible threat to databases.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=808s"},{"start_seconds":814,"text":"Yeah. I mean just kind of my argument very similar in the same vein is there's a subset of people who are down level","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=814s"},{"start_seconds":821,"text":"and are understanding the trade-offs and security and there is a user experience that should inform user relevant","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=821s"},{"start_seconds":829,"text":"information right like for example if you buy a token that just got launched it doesn't matter which chain it's on but like you should see that you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=829s"},{"start_seconds":836,"text":"hey it has whatever 100 holders it's like one hour one hour uh from launch and you know people can make a decision","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=836s"},{"start_seconds":844,"text":"if they want to do this or not. But uh and potentially you know if the chains are if the underlying databases are not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=844s"},{"start_seconds":853,"text":"secure like you can mitigate those risks but those that mitigation themselves is done by the people who understand kind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=853s"},{"start_seconds":860,"text":"of the low level and effectively are I mean solvers and kind of all of this infrastructure layer we we have so many teams building but the product should","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=860s"},{"start_seconds":868,"text":"kind of simplify all that and make it really straightforward. Well, I want to challenge something in sort of crypto here and say that understanding user","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=868s"},{"start_seconds":878,"text":"behavior is such a critical part of security that has been kind of ignored so far, right? Like in a lot of ways, I'd make the case that actually, you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=878s"},{"start_seconds":886,"text":"know what, my Binance is more secure than my treasure in some respects because if I'm going to withdraw some money, then I've got to pass a a TOTP.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=886s"},{"start_seconds":896,"text":"Yeah. Right. And I'm going to get an email. I'm going to get an SMS alerting me that something's happening on my account. And like that is actually a valid part of security. So for a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=896s"},{"start_seconds":904,"text":"people that kind of matters as much as we actually had that in near wallet on the day one. We had 2FA and so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=904s"},{"start_seconds":911,"text":"actually had stories where every crypto was stolen for people because of like uh virus on a computer except near because we had 2FA at launch.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=911s"},{"start_seconds":923,"text":"I mean, the number of people that have gotten in touch with our support team because they've gotten wrecked with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=923s"},{"start_seconds":931,"text":"their onchain like self-custodied address, which is their recovery address. And the only money they've still got that is safe is the money in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=931s"},{"start_seconds":940,"text":"their Infinex account is it's it's disturbing. Like no, it's happening all the time. I motivating. We need to solve this. I was like from the day one I was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=940s"},{"start_seconds":949,"text":"saying like do not show the seed phrase to anyone. So like so near accounts have many keys right this is by design so that you never you should never","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=949s"},{"start_seconds":957,"text":"transport key the private key material should never leave a machine or ideally secure enclave it was created in that's I mean it it worked with pass keys there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=957s"},{"start_seconds":966,"text":"was no pass keys back then but like the the idea was there is like you you should be able if you want to log in from a different device you scan a QR","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=966s"},{"start_seconds":974,"text":"code from the device you already logged in or you send a link we we can send a link with effectively authorization that rotates the key and adds a new key on a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=974s"},{"start_seconds":983,"text":"different device. But you should never transport freaking private key because people keep doing screenshot of it on the phone. They do all kinds of things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=983s"},{"start_seconds":990,"text":"and they get, you know, their cloud get broken and all of the seed phrases are for steal, right? I mean, I no longer think you can be safe in DeFi. Like,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=990s"},{"start_seconds":999,"text":"just the way things are set up at the moment because one of my favorite stories is actually having like there's this malware that they found something","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=999s"},{"start_seconds":1007,"text":"like 60 apps on the Android app store where the app is just taking a screenshot something like every 30 seconds and they're uploading that to some S3 bucket somewhere and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1007s"},{"start_seconds":1016,"text":"they're off ramping that into a like AI that's just doing OCR and checking for seed phrases and wrecking people's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1016s"},{"start_seconds":1022,"text":"wallets. Yeah. like it's so if you've got a seed phrase written down and you just kind of passed your camera over that at some point and now your money's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1022s"},{"start_seconds":1031,"text":"gone or it's more frequent you have the seed phrase screen right on your in your wallet that show you know save it that's what I'm saying like that should never","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1031s"},{"start_seconds":1039,"text":"like that experience should never copy and paste and then there's software that's like your clipboard manager people are going to install without realizing well that's the other thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1039s"},{"start_seconds":1048,"text":"about yeah I mean addresses like they should be human readable so you can actually like not like the Like I've I've actually when we had the um relief","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1048s"},{"start_seconds":1057,"text":"for for Ukraine and we we actually had somebody had a like malicious software on their computer that changed the address where the money was sent. And so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1057s"},{"start_seconds":1066,"text":"it's like we're trying to help people here.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1066s"},{"start_seconds":1069,"text":"What the Right? Like it was small amount but still it was like yeah it's like the address replacer and you know it looks the same like first few","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1069s"},{"start_seconds":1078,"text":"characters are the same. They find like similar address to the one you're actually copying. So you don't actually see hopefully the hackers were in the Ukraine. Maybe it got there anyway.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1078s"},{"start_seconds":1087,"text":"Maybe it didn't end up in North Korea.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1087s"},{"start_seconds":1089,"text":"Um but uh so maybe changing a little bit the uh or like kind of continue this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1089s"},{"start_seconds":1095,"text":"idea because this I would say like last year and and big half of this year was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1095s"},{"start_seconds":1103,"text":"the meta was like layer 2's infrastructure data availability uh and in general that's been dominating","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1103s"},{"start_seconds":1112,"text":"uh crypto in general. I think DeFi is coming back now in last few days but but broadly and then on our","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1112s"},{"start_seconds":1120,"text":"side as well like we've been trying to push consumer crypto for like so long and we were trying to bring it with you know applications like sweat and kai and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1120s"},{"start_seconds":1128,"text":"you know we have games and we have you know hot uh inside telegram but it's been a very like yeah","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1128s"},{"start_seconds":1135,"text":"uphill battle because infrastructure is so much more valued you go to VCs and they were like yeah but you know like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1135s"},{"start_seconds":1143,"text":"I'm not going to make money on this and um like I can invest in this like another layer two and you know that's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1143s"},{"start_seconds":1150,"text":"easy 100x like so how first like I think there's a broader market change so interested how you see","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1150s"},{"start_seconds":1158,"text":"that but also how you guys are thinking of changing kind of this VC mindset that like hey applications are not valu the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1158s"},{"start_seconds":1168,"text":"only way is to make them valued right like you know make a valuable application. The good thing about VCs is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1168s"},{"start_seconds":1175,"text":"that they're so herdlike that it doesn't take much actually for them to like completely pivot 180 degrees and forget everything that they knew, right? Um,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1175s"},{"start_seconds":1184,"text":"and you know, enough people getting wrecked on the next L2 and then you flip that around and all of a sudden there's an application or a couple of applications that have done well and they're like, \"Oh, no, no, I love apps.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1184s"},{"start_seconds":1195,"text":"Like I I've loved them the whole time.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1195s"},{"start_seconds":1196,"text":"I've always have. I don't know why you ever thought I didn't love them.\" Um, and so, you know, I think that memeing a new narrative into existence in crypto,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1196s"},{"start_seconds":1204,"text":"um, is an art form, right? Um, but you can do it and if you do it, uh, you know, you pay a heavy cost, right? The","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1204s"},{"start_seconds":1212,"text":"early people who do it, early DeFi, right? Maker, you know, Maker paid a heavy cost like 2016, 2017, even nobody","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1212s"},{"start_seconds":1219,"text":"believed. Nobody believed everyone even though like it's clearly this is what blockchain is for financial instruments.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1219s"},{"start_seconds":1225,"text":"And I know, right? And like you've got like, you know, and he's he's gotten better, but you got like Vitalic funding it. I mean, like stop building finance,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1225s"},{"start_seconds":1232,"text":"like, you know, build some like unicorns or something, right? And and so I think uh I think that I thought it was the same. Oh, almost almost one unicorn,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1232s"},{"start_seconds":1240,"text":"right? Um and so so I I think that there is this this challenge where it's like um if you if you build a new narrative and you you start a new narrative,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1240s"},{"start_seconds":1249,"text":"you're going to pay a heavy heavy upfront cost for it. And then there's going to be a bunch of fast followers cuz the barriers to entry are so low.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1249s"},{"start_seconds":1256,"text":"And your attention that you actually uh you know get from it can be quite diluted, right? So you look at like Kyber as an example, right? Like you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1256s"},{"start_seconds":1264,"text":"know early decks like you know I mean even like either Delta, right? um IDEX like some of these early people who like were grinding just chewing glass on a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1264s"},{"start_seconds":1273,"text":"daily basis and then it's like sorry you like you know unis swap um you know 1 in like balancer all of these uh these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1273s"},{"start_seconds":1282,"text":"protocols came and and just you know blew past them um so it is dangerous to meme something into existence um but if you can do it then it creates a new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1282s"},{"start_seconds":1290,"text":"category and people will start to you know kind of orient around it I think we've already seen that happening you know so we're we're very excited about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1290s"},{"start_seconds":1298,"text":"it. And I mean to your point about consumer crypto, I think one of the challenges is that building a new game","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1298s"},{"start_seconds":1305,"text":"or a new social thing with hard blockchain. It's so hard. It's such a hard thing to do. So, um you know,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1305s"},{"start_seconds":1313,"text":"whereas building uh a new fintech, right? Um like that's not that hard. And it's it's well it's actually easier than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1313s"},{"start_seconds":1321,"text":"web 2. It's easier. Building fintech right now in web two. Well, you need to deal with a lot of stuff. Regulations, custody. Now you're other people trying to start a neo bank, right? Like it's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1321s"},{"start_seconds":1330,"text":"nightmare. Now you're building Yeah. Now you're building a bank and here you don't need to like you don't need to deal with custody like you need to deal with security for the users but that is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1330s"},{"start_seconds":1339,"text":"yeah the tools are getting way better and uh and yeah you just need to build really good experience.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1339s"},{"start_seconds":1345,"text":"Yeah I think one of the things that is hard is the combination of user experience and being non-custodial. like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1345s"},{"start_seconds":1352,"text":"they've actually been kind of pointed at each other in opposing forces mode for a while now. And like this is actually I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1352s"},{"start_seconds":1360,"text":"mean coming right back to Near, this is one of the things we're really excited about with chain signatures because it it's sort of one of the key pieces of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1360s"},{"start_seconds":1368,"text":"technology that lets us deal with being non-custodial while still being able to kind of understand what the user intent is and map that to the outcome on chain.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1368s"},{"start_seconds":1378,"text":"And so I'm not sure how much this is a thing that we can only do now, but definitely to some extent I think that's true. Um this is part of Kane's sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1378s"},{"start_seconds":1386,"text":"founding pitch for Infinex was like well we built all the functionality and no one's using it. So I really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1386s"},{"start_seconds":1394,"text":"like something went wrong. Maybe we also need to care about user experience.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1394s"},{"start_seconds":1398,"text":"Maybe that's what's missing. And then you look at the amount of usage that there is on these centralized exchanges and the the way that people don't need","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1398s"},{"start_seconds":1405,"text":"to learn a new way of doing things in order to use them I think is one of the reasons that they're successful. Um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1405s"},{"start_seconds":1413,"text":"coming back to this don't make me think kind of piece. Um yeah I mean ve very valid and I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1413s"},{"start_seconds":1420,"text":"the I I use this joke that yeah there's been chain abstracted applications there are Binance Coinbase oh Binance is like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1420s"},{"start_seconds":1429,"text":"the best chain abstraction technology the world has ever seen. It's uh 100 million users and uh making ton of money. So if if you're not investing in chain abstraction what are you doing?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1429s"},{"start_seconds":1439,"text":"But in terms of users as well, like I I'd say one of the places where we have actually found a lot of support is this idea of bringing users into DeFi. I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1439s"},{"start_seconds":1448,"text":"if we can if we can do this um turns out everyone wants users. Well, it's like everybody wants the users and especially if you can bring them with money. I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1448s"},{"start_seconds":1456,"text":"mean, this is this is a challenge we've been like how do we as we're bringing users, how do we give them more functionality so that they want to bring","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1456s"},{"start_seconds":1464,"text":"more money on chain, right? Because actually there's more things to do, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think this has been quite interesting for me. You know, I've been coming to crypto conferences for a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1464s"},{"start_seconds":1473,"text":"long time and there was a period of time where it was like, you know, DeFi summer. People were like, I love, you know, yield farming and like synthetics.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1473s"},{"start_seconds":1481,"text":"Yeah. spend all my time. I spent all my time doing it and they were enthusiasts. They were like kind of fanboys, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1481s"},{"start_seconds":1485,"text":"And it was like, \"Okay, cool.\" Um the the last uh couple of days here um where people I think actually get what Infinex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1485s"},{"start_seconds":1494,"text":"is doing. It's people coming up to me that are like, \"Give me your distribution.\" It's like, \"I have a like a golden egg that they want.\" And they're like like they're just coming","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1494s"},{"start_seconds":1502,"text":"out of the woodwork and they're like and and it's funny because these are all like early stage DeFi founders and in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1502s"},{"start_seconds":1510,"text":"spite of ourselves like there is a deep intuition that like I need distribution like people get like founders get this but it was like oh well I get distribution by doing an airdrop and now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1510s"},{"start_seconds":1519,"text":"they're like wait there's a new way to get distribution like I just have to get into Infinex and it's like they're like all about it now. Um and so I do think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1519s"},{"start_seconds":1526,"text":"that uh that is one of the things that's most exciting is okay chain abstraction Binance does a really good job of it but everything that happens in Binance the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1526s"},{"start_seconds":1535,"text":"value is captured by Binance whereas if you do chain abstraction and build an onchain exchange everything that happens in that exchange gets passed back","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1535s"},{"start_seconds":1543,"text":"through the protocol it goes to like it goes to a it goes to you know all of these protocols and and you know they will reap the rewards of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1543s"},{"start_seconds":1551,"text":"distribution and there's a really powerful feedback loop there um in a way that you know it's not just being like sucked out into you know the real world.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1551s"},{"start_seconds":1559,"text":"It goes to users as well though like I think one of the things that's going to be really cool about this is if you're earning like there's always an earn page on Binance on Bybit and the centralized","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1559s"},{"start_seconds":1567,"text":"exchanges but that's also them use like giving the user an abstracted version of whatever they're able to do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1567s"},{"start_seconds":1575,"text":"with those. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas like with DeFi, you can just go straight to the protocol directly as a user and like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1575s"},{"start_seconds":1582,"text":"where else in in anywhere in finance, right? Um can you actually sort of LP into something directly and get the full","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1582s"},{"start_seconds":1590,"text":"benefit of that even if you've only got a 100 bucks? Yeah, I mean that's why so I mean the other kind of as part of the chain abstraction, right? Chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1590s"},{"start_seconds":1599,"text":"signatures were our first effective like okay well we need to interconnect chains. How do we do that? we need a new way of effectively like near account to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1599s"},{"start_seconds":1608,"text":"be able to be global. But the other side was okay well even after that like the way users think is still not ch like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1608s"},{"start_seconds":1617,"text":"this is still kind of this is this is underlying tech this is a c custody self custody custody tool right and so that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1617s"},{"start_seconds":1623,"text":"where the intents are coming right and the kind of I think a lot of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1623s"},{"start_seconds":1632,"text":"conversations about intents have been around like swapping because that's like the simplest you know hey I want I just you know want this much um token for for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1632s"},{"start_seconds":1640,"text":"this. But the reality intent can be as complex and I mean on the eye side I also talk about how this can be natural","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1640s"},{"start_seconds":1648,"text":"language you can have you know like you can transact with a restaurant or we can with you know a service with a hotel but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1648s"},{"start_seconds":1656,"text":"on blockchain with DeFi you can also say like hey the earn is actually an intent right and then your solvers can suggest like hey here's a set of protocols that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1656s"},{"start_seconds":1664,"text":"you can like distribute to and this can be an active intent where it's effectively refreshes and updates based on what is the best options right now.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1664s"},{"start_seconds":1672,"text":"So you not just effectively have this abstracted version on Binance which they kind of are doing that themselves but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1672s"},{"start_seconds":1679,"text":"they're taking a huge markup on that but they actually can have literally the auction on hey I have $100 and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1679s"},{"start_seconds":1686,"text":"continuously auctioning off this $100 into whatever the market like money markets or other yield opportunities are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1686s"},{"start_seconds":1693,"text":"around the all of the web three right I mean maybe with some conditions I want to apply and so you can have a lot more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1693s"},{"start_seconds":1701,"text":"interesting complex intents and you can also add whatever the compliance and other frameworks on top of this as well to ensure that you have kind of you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1701s"},{"start_seconds":1710,"text":"maybe some money markets one KYC people etc. Boom. UK KYC pass this over. So I think there's like kind of this next","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1710s"},{"start_seconds":1718,"text":"level of intent that allows to really create kind of defragmentation of liquidity uh across not just swaps but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1718s"},{"start_seconds":1726,"text":"also all of the other functionality you know uh that is happening across web 3.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1726s"},{"start_seconds":1731,"text":"I'm I'm really excited to see like I mean we we kind of introduced the first like foot swaps the easy use case but uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1731s"},{"start_seconds":1739,"text":"kind of we're excited to see that actually expanding to more and more of uh different functionality and different types of intents. Well, intense hit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1739s"},{"start_seconds":1748,"text":"home, I think, for us in a a really core way because it it couples with something else that we've been talking about a lot, which we've unpicked from a UX","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1748s"},{"start_seconds":1757,"text":"perspective, right? And I think like one of the things that's been really preventing sort of DeFi and crypto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1757s"},{"start_seconds":1765,"text":"generally from getting to a better UX has been this like solidification of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1765s"},{"start_seconds":1772,"text":"when actions happen, right? And so in like we started out talking about this kind of separation of you've got the signing and the custody piece. You've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1772s"},{"start_seconds":1781,"text":"got the interface that you're using and then you've got the protocol or the functionality under the hood. And these are like you know separated in this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1781s"},{"start_seconds":1789,"text":"really firm way with well yeah like your signing is in one application handled by one people the front end by another and protocol by a third. Yeah. But not just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1789s"},{"start_seconds":1797,"text":"that you've got to be able to in like swap out any one of these three pieces.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1797s"},{"start_seconds":1801,"text":"So wallets can't really innovate on the signing experience because DAPs are all going to ask them to sign the transaction the same way and DAPs can't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1801s"},{"start_seconds":1810,"text":"really innovate. And I mean it's like one of the things that's so obvious about this is like Rabbi just like piggybacking on the Metam mask API like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1810s"},{"start_seconds":1820,"text":"the fact that they need to do the fact that they have to like vampire attack someone's AP like it's so bearish of like they can't even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1820s"},{"start_seconds":1828,"text":"build a better API. It's easier to just ape into the bad API that someone else already has. But also like protocols are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1828s"},{"start_seconds":1835,"text":"designed in a way that anyone can build a DAP against them. They don't understand the way the user is going to use them. I'm like this is really not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1835s"},{"start_seconds":1842,"text":"how good UX gets built. Like this is I spent a lot of time u actually before I got into crypto in the design system space which is all about getting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1842s"},{"start_seconds":1850,"text":"designers and developers to actually sit together and speak the same language as a starting point, right? to think about building applications the same way. So","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1850s"},{"start_seconds":1859,"text":"you can reason across the stack and it's like crypto's taken this to an extreme of we don't you think rebasing tokens are not good uh u good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1859s"},{"start_seconds":1868,"text":"for UX but like it's not just that these things are separate and infinex like we describe it as a vertically integrated","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1868s"},{"start_seconds":1876,"text":"sort of application in that we're going from signing to intent to action in one sort of thing that we can reason about.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1876s"},{"start_seconds":1885,"text":"But I don't think it's just that. It's also got to do with like you've got to zoom out and think about the time of when do we ask someone to do a thing. So","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1885s"},{"start_seconds":1893,"text":"the DAP prepares a transaction and then it passes it to like it's already mostly been encoded into bytes at this point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1893s"},{"start_seconds":1900,"text":"and then it's passed to the wallet to sign it. Yeah. And wallet tries to like make some sense of it to try to show something to the can do the wallets I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1900s"},{"start_seconds":1907,"text":"mean like the wallet's just like by the way you could lose all your money here, right? Like that's really all I can tell","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1907s"},{"start_seconds":1914,"text":"you. I mean that that's I mean one of the reasons because like this is like my first experience with Ethereum was in 2018, right? And I I I tried a bunch of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1914s"},{"start_seconds":1923,"text":"stuff and I'm like this is complete and like cluster Like I'm an engineer.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1923s"},{"start_seconds":1928,"text":"I can I can literally figure out how every single piece is built, but I don't want to use this. Yeah. No, it's it's it's it's super hostile. Um but if we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1928s"},{"start_seconds":1937,"text":"can shift like what you're really getting is you've got an action that unfortunately is encoded in the implementation detail by the time the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1937s"},{"start_seconds":1945,"text":"user is authorizing it. Yeah. So if we can shift that point of authorization earlier to the intent then I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1945s"},{"start_seconds":1953,"text":"that's actually going to unlock a lot more about what what we need to create a good user experience that's also safe.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1953s"},{"start_seconds":1961,"text":"And this is something I was really excited about when I saw the intense like the near intense stuff that you've been working on. Yeah. You sign a message that says I want to swap this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1961s"},{"start_seconds":1968,"text":"token for this token. You don't like really close to plain English. I mean it's JSON. Well, but we all so near always was JSON, right? All the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1968s"},{"start_seconds":1976,"text":"arguments everything is in JSON. So you actually can read and you know kind of understand what's going on. Yeah. But the thing that uh and we had you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1976s"},{"start_seconds":1984,"text":"few approaches to actually you can just translate that can be like effectively one to one translated to some English.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1984s"},{"start_seconds":1990,"text":"Absolutely. Like or any other language as well. Um so like I think the more that we can get users to interact with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1990s"},{"start_seconds":1998,"text":"and authorize intents rather than like it's almost like if you wrote a database query and you had to like actually run","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=1998s"},{"start_seconds":2006,"text":"the execution plan that it gives you like cuz that's specific to the database platform and even version that you're running. You know this is still what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2006s"},{"start_seconds":2013,"text":"we're asking users to do. So it's like it's like trying to optimize it as well so you get like some weird things. It's just like If you've ever tried to follow a complex execution plan like you can't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2013s"},{"start_seconds":2022,"text":"follow them either, right? Databases have the same problem. But there's also other people in the database who are like trying to inject querying you.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2022s"},{"start_seconds":2030,"text":"Yeah. It's like an adversarial like environment as well. No, exactly. Yeah.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2030s"},{"start_seconds":2035,"text":"So I mean intent this the the problem I've been having is like intent sounds very like abstract and like so hard to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2035s"},{"start_seconds":2042,"text":"expl been hard to explain and like I mean kind of a lot of the kind of Cosmos folks have been trying to bring this to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2042s"},{"start_seconds":2048,"text":"market and so part of it been indeed is like without actually having kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2048s"},{"start_seconds":2055,"text":"this integration of like signing UX I think intents have also been like too","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2055s"},{"start_seconds":2063,"text":"complex for people to reason about because because you're kind of adding one more thing to existing already complex thing, right? So now you have intent, DAP, wallet, execution, solver.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2063s"},{"start_seconds":2075,"text":"So it's like too complex. But you know, if you bring it back and say actually have we we have the kind of you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2075s"},{"start_seconds":2083,"text":"navigating what you want to do and then you can sign what you want to do and then somebody else executes it, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2083s"},{"start_seconds":2089,"text":"That simplifies the kind of the picture.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2089s"},{"start_seconds":2093,"text":"Like if you can solve trusting the execution and you can actually authorize the intent, I think it it's just it gets a lot better. It's it's also pretty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2093s"},{"start_seconds":2101,"text":"convenient. I would say that these things line up so well cuz like the things that you're investing in, we've got chain signatures, we've got intents,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2101s"},{"start_seconds":2109,"text":"we've got AI and the things that AI needs to be effective on chain are actually I think very very closely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2109s"},{"start_seconds":2117,"text":"aligned with the things that we need to deliver better UX on chain as well. I mean AI is not different from it's not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2117s"},{"start_seconds":2124,"text":"that different to a user right and and the thing is like you want the AI to do the kind of analysis decision- making you don't want it to plan out how to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2124s"},{"start_seconds":2132,"text":"execute across multiple hubs multiple chains so like issuing an intent from AI makes so much more sense than it figuring out like then you build all of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2132s"},{"start_seconds":2140,"text":"your effectively solver code indexing everything into the same model that's you don't want to do that right so like decoupling that is like hey the like I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2140s"},{"start_seconds":2150,"text":"want to do this you somebody else should figure out how to achieve that and uh again like it's not just for swaps it can be for any complex action and any","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2150s"},{"start_seconds":2159,"text":"real world action uh like I'm really excited about the intents where you can get fiat right because you can say hey I want to you know I have some bitcoin and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2159s"},{"start_seconds":2167,"text":"I want some dollars in my bank account just you know somebody somebody can execute this I'm sure there's people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2167s"},{"start_seconds":2174,"text":"with licenses they can do this I mean it may take you know some period of time there needs to be dispute resolution there needs to be like set of conditions. But you know that is kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2174s"},{"start_seconds":2183,"text":"and the same is like hey I have some black dragon you know memecoin I want to get a flight you know from Bangkok to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2183s"},{"start_seconds":2190,"text":"Lisbon right so like there's ways to effectively start bridging with the real world which is I'm I'm really excited","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2190s"},{"start_seconds":2197,"text":"because that was the other thing is like yes we built all of this effectively online casino which is great and like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2197s"},{"start_seconds":2203,"text":"there is you know use cases for that um but even better if we and actually build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2203s"},{"start_seconds":2211,"text":"in all the real world stuff into this as well. You mean we have to interact with the real world?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2211s"},{"start_seconds":2217,"text":"And then who knew? And now and now imagine all of this financial tooling that we've been building is actually can be leveraged to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2217s"},{"start_seconds":2226,"text":"uh to actually interact with real world like how much more efficient than trend fire we can be right and you know we need to bring some of the compliance we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2226s"},{"start_seconds":2234,"text":"need to bring some of the tooling around that but um like everybody's happy to do that to actually like integrate this but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2234s"},{"start_seconds":2241,"text":"we need a new method where like the threadf execution can also participate in effectively intent in a similar way how you do this on chain.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2241s"},{"start_seconds":2252,"text":"And I think that's like the vampire attack, right, of like just carving off some use cases and, you know, letting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2252s"},{"start_seconds":2260,"text":"letting uh tradi kind of experience the better execution, better transparency,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2260s"},{"start_seconds":2267,"text":"better, you know, outcomes, right? More efficient markets really. That's what we're all you know this is the the thing I think about where the frustration with the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2267s"},{"start_seconds":2275,"text":"current well not current former currently yeah transitional um you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2275s"},{"start_seconds":2282,"text":"the the uh the regulatory um environment uh over the last four years has been so frustrating because it's like no we are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2282s"},{"start_seconds":2291,"text":"getting better outcomes these are more we all want official markets well well it it was more like the defi worked like Alamina needed to pay back their DeFi","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2291s"},{"start_seconds":2299,"text":"loans before bank bankring like you cannot do the that FTX did on chain. Exactly. You just like everybody would have found out if they siphon any","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2299s"},{"start_seconds":2308,"text":"money out of smart contract immediately and your regulation you they had a regulated entity. Right. So like regulations don't work. They didn't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2308s"},{"start_seconds":2316,"text":"work. Yeah. Exactly. It wasn't like they weren't regulated. They had plenty of licenses. Right. There's just no oversight. And that's the problem is you know a smart person with an opaque","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2316s"},{"start_seconds":2325,"text":"system is always going to outflank a regulator, right? like it's it's a whack-a-mole game, right? Whereas if you have onchain transparency, all of a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2325s"},{"start_seconds":2333,"text":"sudden you're going to get better outcomes. But the problem is that I think we all realized a few years ago that it wasn't even about that anymore.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2333s"},{"start_seconds":2342,"text":"It wasn't like oh this is going to be more efficient or we disagree or like you know there's a like a um sort of you know reasoned argument of like maybe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2342s"},{"start_seconds":2350,"text":"this isn't the right approach. It was like no no this is actually us losing control because our job is to regulate things. If your job is to regulate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2350s"},{"start_seconds":2358,"text":"things and someone's like, well, I've actually built a technology that doesn't require you anymore, you're probably not going to enjoy that very much, like that's not a good day for you, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2358s"},{"start_seconds":2365,"text":"So, it's like actually no, we don't believe that you can even do this because also conveniently, we need a job, right? So, I mean, my my always","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2365s"},{"start_seconds":2374,"text":"pointed because this question came up a lot of times. I'm like, well actually the job in this world is you should be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2374s"},{"start_seconds":2382,"text":"effectively the design partner for the UX where you actually like if your job","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2382s"},{"start_seconds":2390,"text":"is to protect consumers and protect investors. Well, this is transparent tooling. You can have your own registry on chain where people can register their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2390s"},{"start_seconds":2398,"text":"assets as they launch them. you can augment them with additional information and then you can have effectively a standard for wallets and applications to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2398s"},{"start_seconds":2406,"text":"surface this information so investors are protected right it's not let's shut everything down and then indeed it's a welcome because this is decentralized","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2406s"},{"start_seconds":2415,"text":"technology anybody anywhere can launch something the barriers are too low right like it's just you're not going to be able to stop it yeah I mean we have like uh one of the things we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2415s"},{"start_seconds":2423,"text":"decentralized front ends on near we have literally serving websites from the blockchain which like anybody can access And so the reality is somebody you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2423s"},{"start_seconds":2431,"text":"the cat in uh you know from the moon can ship code that is fully working app that you know effectively unstoppable until","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2431s"},{"start_seconds":2439,"text":"you know if you like shut down everything everywhere right and so so like the reality is like you cannot actually stop this like if you want if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2439s"},{"start_seconds":2446,"text":"you want to participate in as a regulator you need to come in and actually be part of the network right you but I think this is the thing they were like what if we can shut down the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2446s"},{"start_seconds":2455,"text":"networks right like they were still in this mindset of like okay we can't shut down the near chain, but if we can choke it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2455s"},{"start_seconds":2463,"text":"off, then like maybe it'll just die, right? And it's like, well, how did that work out for you? Yeah. So, I mean, that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2463s"},{"start_seconds":2471,"text":"that's maybe like a a good I mean, obviously we've had, you know, US elections, things are ch wins are changing. Um, how do you see kind of next four years of the crypto evolution?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2471s"},{"start_seconds":2483,"text":"I I think it's honestly shocking even to me right and even to people who've been building in the space as this new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2483s"},{"start_seconds":2490,"text":"reality has kind of dawned that like how much we've been twisting ourselves into knots even you know I'm pretty aggressive right like I'm I'm willing to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2490s"},{"start_seconds":2499,"text":"push the envelope and even I've been like wait a second would I have done this if this were you know would I have done this thing would I have made this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2499s"},{"start_seconds":2507,"text":"decision would I have a hedged this way and the answer keeps being like no no I wouldn't have I would have done it in a much more straightforward way. I would have done this differently. I would have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2507s"},{"start_seconds":2515,"text":"done this differently. And again, I'm on the like risk on side of the spectrum. LFG side. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Right.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2515s"},{"start_seconds":2524,"text":"And so, you know, when you think about the collective impact that that's had on everyone where everyone's second guessing their decisions, everyone's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2524s"},{"start_seconds":2531,"text":"looking over their shoulders. I mean, I don't know how many millions of dollars we paid to lawyers. Like that's I mean, and for nothing for real, like I don't say nothing but like as insurance money","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2531s"},{"start_seconds":2540,"text":"almost, right? Well, insurance and also like my my my biggest example is when we were launching the network, right? You","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2540s"},{"start_seconds":2547,"text":"need to distribute tokens to people and the way you do it is it's hardcoded in Genesis and by the way we've done the network was launched in decentralized","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2547s"},{"start_seconds":2555,"text":"way. We've published Genesis the coded there validators uh that participated in a test uh network all came together and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2555s"},{"start_seconds":2563,"text":"started this network and then they voted on unlocking the transfers right straight to jail.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2563s"},{"start_seconds":2572,"text":"But at the same time, we had a ton of paperwork for all the backers on receiving tokens. We had broker dealer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2572s"},{"start_seconds":2580,"text":"uh transfers. We had all of the stuff done in the middle which like it's just a paper layer on top of what actually was happening, right? And so that like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2580s"},{"start_seconds":2588,"text":"that dichotomy to me never made sense, right? It's like you're doing all this paperwork which is like we are transferring assets here. The assets are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2588s"},{"start_seconds":2596,"text":"here. Like if we can work on are still there. It's still happening, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2596s"},{"start_seconds":2601,"text":"Exactly. Yeah. It's like this. It's not It's, you know, it's trying to describe what's happening in reality in some other way, right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2601s"},{"start_seconds":2610,"text":"what's kind of been annoying for me over the last year is just how much this isn't adding any value. Well, I mean, that's what I mean. It's like there was no zero value added. Like the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2610s"},{"start_seconds":2619,"text":"transfer happened on chain. Like if this contract is like voided or something, we cannot undo the transfer. Like there there are a lot of problems in the space","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2619s"},{"start_seconds":2626,"text":"that I think are genuinely things we need to address to protect consumers and this does come back to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2626s"},{"start_seconds":2634,"text":"understanding education security. There are so many ways there are way more ways than I was expecting that you can get wrecked on chain and it's not like we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2634s"},{"start_seconds":2643,"text":"can't invent solutions to those problems and we are but yeah this stuff is is definitely making it harder to make it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2643s"},{"start_seconds":2650,"text":"better and that's weird. So I I mean I always yeah I would say like it's a pro it should be a product approach not the regulatory approach the product the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2650s"},{"start_seconds":2658,"text":"product here is indeed like when you go you know a simple example when you ask a new asset you should know information about the asset right like right now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2658s"},{"start_seconds":2666,"text":"when you go to any chain you know the only thing may like the only like a swap that maybe shows you that this token is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2666s"},{"start_seconds":2673,"text":"like not in a white list what the hell that means who decides on a white list right it doesn't show me any information if I want to find information I need to like dig in into like a bunch of stuff.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2673s"},{"start_seconds":2683,"text":"Now there's a little bit better tools now as like Dex screener and stuff like this, but the reality is it's still like it's not hey here is what you need to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2683s"},{"start_seconds":2691,"text":"know. here is you know here's the risks here is the and you can make a decision right like you know people who trading are adults but then on the other side I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2691s"},{"start_seconds":2699,"text":"mean there is institutions who have the compliance requirements well let's make it easy for them to participate right yes they cannot put money into a common","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2699s"},{"start_seconds":2707,"text":"pool great well intents actually don't require that right now you can be the counterparty and if your counterparty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2707s"},{"start_seconds":2713,"text":"requires a KYC or KYB or whatever the like at the station needs you can attach","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2713s"},{"start_seconds":2720,"text":"that to your with your intent and now when parties matched you have uh you have this. So like we can actually implement compliance in whatever way","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2720s"},{"start_seconds":2728,"text":"like anything that describable by mathematic mathematics we can implement just it needs to be like actually described. It needs to be described.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2728s"},{"start_seconds":2737,"text":"Yeah, the description is the problem.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2737s"},{"start_seconds":2739,"text":"And and I think like you know this is this is again the the overhead that's been incurred in in people because we're guessing. because we're guessing. You're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2739s"},{"start_seconds":2747,"text":"like, \"What might someone do in the future?\" Like that. It's a nightmare, right? And and again, I think that like even in the last week for for me, I've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2747s"},{"start_seconds":2756,"text":"realized things that I thought that I was like, \"Okay, I'm pushing the envelope here, right? Like I'm I'm you know, going like the bleeding edge.\" I'm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2756s"},{"start_seconds":2764,"text":"like, \"No, no, no. There's a lot more edge. Like you can go way further out, right?\" And all of a sudden, you're like, if we open up the design space,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2764s"},{"start_seconds":2771,"text":"right, and we say, \"What are we actually trying to solve for? We're trying to solve for like transparency for the user. We're trying to solve for efficient markets, etc. And we don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2771s"},{"start_seconds":2779,"text":"need to look over our shoulder. I think the market can solve these problems really, really quickly. And there will be a lot of competition to try and do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2779s"},{"start_seconds":2786,"text":"it. Um, and also you've just unlocked the whole of the United States, which is a fairly innovative country, it turns","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2786s"},{"start_seconds":2794,"text":"out, right? Like, you know, you can switch that country back on and people are like, \"Oh, I can do things again.\" It's like, it's amazing, right? It's going to be a much more efficient","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2794s"},{"start_seconds":2802,"text":"market. So, I'm super bullish. I think we've got my view is we've got like four years for mass adoption and if we can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2802s"},{"start_seconds":2809,"text":"land mass adoption in four years it doesn't matter what happens after that because it's too big for anyone you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2809s"},{"start_seconds":2816,"text":"you can like 3 years ago four years ago can we choke it to death and kill it in the cradle like no but you could maybe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2816s"},{"start_seconds":2825,"text":"clearly not clearly no but you could try you might think you could try in four years time if we get mass adoption and we actually get like real users using","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2825s"},{"start_seconds":2832,"text":"this No one will be dumb enough. Maybe Elizabeth Warren, but like literally other than her, no one will be dumb enough to think that they can pull this off and it will it's game over, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2832s"},{"start_seconds":2842,"text":"And then it doesn't matter whether it's Democrats that are cry pro crypto, if the Republicans flip anti- it doesn't matter if it's the EU doing EU nonsense.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2842s"},{"start_seconds":2853,"text":"It's embedded into the it's embedded.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2853s"},{"start_seconds":2855,"text":"It's there. And we've got mass adoption, which for me, I think we need like 500 million real users. like get 500 million","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2855s"},{"start_seconds":2863,"text":"real users across the world. Too big to fail. Like you can't switch it off. I still have my goal of billion users","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2863s"},{"start_seconds":2870,"text":"by I think in 21 I said in 5 years. So by 26. Okay. Yeah. I mean we're we're at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2870s"},{"start_seconds":2877,"text":"30 million right now. So you know we actually had 10x growth every year so far. And I mean this year's like up till","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2877s"},{"start_seconds":2886,"text":"now it's 3x. So we had 10 million beginning of the year. So still still some room for for I mean I'm I'm hoping","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2886s"},{"start_seconds":2893,"text":"you guys can Yeah, that's kind of the job here. Yeah.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2893s"},{"start_seconds":2900,"text":"So maybe just like uh one last question.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2900s"},{"start_seconds":2904,"text":"Um I think like indeed you know DeFi and Ethereum there's a lot of enthusiasts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2904s"},{"start_seconds":2910,"text":"but most traded assets are like uh been not Ethereum not Ethereum assets right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2910s"},{"start_seconds":2917,"text":"it's been actually Bitcoin it's XRP it's uh BNB it's all all the things and so how are you thinking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2917s"},{"start_seconds":2926,"text":"about kind of both attracting those kind of holders and and users as well does","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2926s"},{"start_seconds":2933,"text":"effectively bringing users out of centralized venues um as well as obviously new users coming in. I I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2933s"},{"start_seconds":2940,"text":"one of the mistakes that we've made in DeFi and certainly Ethereum DeFi is convincing ourselves that what we can do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2940s"},{"start_seconds":2948,"text":"is what we should do right and and not saying well actually if we need to do something we can't do it yet let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2948s"},{"start_seconds":2955,"text":"figure out a way to do it. um we've we've gone about it from the wrong perspective, right? So um you know, we don't have to uh hypothesize about which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2955s"},{"start_seconds":2965,"text":"assets people want to hold. There's a scoreboard. Like go to Coin Gecko, right? Like XRP is in the top 10 assets.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2965s"},{"start_seconds":2971,"text":"It means that people want it. It doesn't matter whether you want them to want it or whether you think it's a scam or whatever. Like there is demand for that asset. And if you go to a Binance user","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2971s"},{"start_seconds":2980,"text":"or a Bybit user and pick one at random and say like, \"What are you holding?\" they're going to say XRP or Litecoin or Bitcoin Cash or some other random thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2980s"},{"start_seconds":2990,"text":"and it's probably not going to be an SPL token or an ERC20 token, right? Um, and if you can't accommodate those assets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2990s"},{"start_seconds":2996,"text":"inside DeFi, then you are just limiting the users that you're going to be able to attract. And so we need to be able,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=2996s"},{"start_seconds":3004,"text":"and this is the thing, like it's going to be insane for an XRP user to be on chain all of a sudden and see that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3004s"},{"start_seconds":3012,"text":"there's like so much 5% yield on like Athena, right? They're going to be like, \"What have I been doing with my life?\"","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3012s"},{"start_seconds":3020,"text":"Right? Like, but at the moment, they're isolated. They'll never see that. And so, if we can bring an XRP user on chain, you know, like we don't need them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3020s"},{"start_seconds":3028,"text":"to sell their XRP. We just need them to know that they can borrow against it and get some yield. And it's going to open up possibilities, but we can't expect","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3028s"},{"start_seconds":3036,"text":"them to have to go through a bunch of hoops to be able to get to that point.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3036s"},{"start_seconds":3040,"text":"We just have to let them click a button, find out the thing we want to do, click a button, get the yield, and we will onboard all of these users who are stuck","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3040s"},{"start_seconds":3048,"text":"on centralized exchanges. Yeah, I think there are three problems that we need to solve to get users. And two of them are actually the same problem. So there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3048s"},{"start_seconds":3056,"text":"kind of two, but one is like UX, make it easy, don't make me think. And the other one that's actually the same problem is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3056s"},{"start_seconds":3063,"text":"making it secure. I think you can I I think we can make a case and I I want to make sure we can always stand behind this that Infinex is the safest place to hold your crypto for most people, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3063s"},{"start_seconds":3073,"text":"Like we've seen already with the number of people who've had their other address that they've had linked wrecked. Infinex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3073s"},{"start_seconds":3080,"text":"is just safer for for so many of our users than whatever they were doing to custody their own stuff on chain was.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3080s"},{"start_seconds":3088,"text":"Um, and then for people in a centralized exchange, you've got the same argument from a different perspective where it's actually transparent and you can see it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3088s"},{"start_seconds":3095,"text":"and you're not going to get FDXed, right? So, there's a couple of reasons that I think that is a credible claim","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3095s"},{"start_seconds":3102,"text":"and and one of our northstars. Um, and the third thing is then once you can solve that, I think you can get the referrals like how should I how can I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3102s"},{"start_seconds":3111,"text":"get in like what what's the barbecue story, right? You got some mates on at the weekend and they're not in crypto.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3111s"},{"start_seconds":3115,"text":"It's like, well, how would I hold some Doge? Like I've I've heard about this sort of what is the department of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3115s"},{"start_seconds":3122,"text":"governmental inefficient like okay how do I how do I get into that and like okay you're starting there fine infinex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3122s"},{"start_seconds":3130,"text":"right that should be the answer um and it can be the answer in for everyone who's in defi because it's defi right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3130s"},{"start_seconds":3138,"text":"like I think one of the secret things here is we're trying to design this in a way where if infinex succeeds then defi","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3138s"},{"start_seconds":3146,"text":"succeeds So, you know, everyone in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3146s"},{"start_seconds":3161,"text":"Dece and have them use the random stuff that everyone is doing. And once you get there, this third piece is like it's just more interesting like that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3161s"},{"start_seconds":3170,"text":"innovation. We don't have to do that part. Defi is doing it. We just have to link the users into that space and make it better.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3170s"},{"start_seconds":3178,"text":"Awesome. And maybe then just one more last thing because uh we've been talking how near is also really uh leaning into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3178s"},{"start_seconds":3186,"text":"AI and from my perspective AI is effectively the interface. It's going to be becoming more and more how we interact with computing broadly and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3186s"},{"start_seconds":3195,"text":"curious how you guys are thinking about this. But from my perspective, uh, so one of the challenges with DeFi is that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3195s"},{"start_seconds":3203,"text":"there is so many different routes and there's so many different options. And what AI is really good at is effectively being able to navigate the very complex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3203s"},{"start_seconds":3213,"text":"kind of multi-dimensional space in a natural way and kind of having this conversation instead of, you know, a user interface where you like, you know,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3213s"},{"start_seconds":3221,"text":"have 50 options and you're trying to do things. But there's also another side which is what we're working on is effectively recommendations and so like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3221s"},{"start_seconds":3229,"text":"can we have a feed of things that will be useful for you uh directly because of what you've asked before what we know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3229s"},{"start_seconds":3236,"text":"about you as well as what other people are doing. Yeah. Well, this is really convenient for us cuz one of the first comments that I made last year when we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3236s"},{"start_seconds":3243,"text":"were starting Infinex um was actually to do with AI and like Kane was the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3243s"},{"start_seconds":3250,"text":"starting point was obviously synthetics and like how do we get more people trading by fixing the UX but if you open a buy bit account today one of the first","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3250s"},{"start_seconds":3258,"text":"things that they show you is actually their AI interface and you can ask it what the markets are doing today. You can get sentiment analysis, you can get recommendations, and they'll link that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3258s"},{"start_seconds":3267,"text":"to a button that you can click to open a per position or buy an option. And like this is actually the direction that they're going in. And so, you know,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3267s"},{"start_seconds":3275,"text":"right at the start I was thinking it's one thing to build an a user interface where it's all sort of text inputs and buttons that you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3275s"},{"start_seconds":3283,"text":"clicking. But if we just build that, we're also then going to have to deal with the fact that we're just skating to where the puck was, you know, and the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3283s"},{"start_seconds":3292,"text":"puck is clearly heading off in the direction of AI and all the different kinds of interactions that that actually opens up. So, I think it actually fits","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3292s"},{"start_seconds":3300,"text":"in really neatly uh what you're doing and what we're doing.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3300s"},{"start_seconds":3303,"text":"I think one advantage as well with Infinex um is we are a wall garden at first, right? Um we're like, you know,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3303s"},{"start_seconds":3312,"text":"the AOL, which I don't love the analogy, but like it it is apt, right? Um what that means is that yes, AI is great at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3312s"},{"start_seconds":3321,"text":"like going and you know, running through a million different things. Um, but it also means that there's a lot of jeopardy, right, around like what if it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3321s"},{"start_seconds":3330,"text":"chooses the 999,000 thing that's going to wreck you, right? Um, and if we have a set of contracts that have Lindy, a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3330s"},{"start_seconds":3338,"text":"set of, uh, you know, platforms that we'll give people access to that we're comfortable with from like a risk perspective, all of a sudden you've got like a curated thing where it's like,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3338s"},{"start_seconds":3347,"text":"choose from these without, you know, going and you might be able to unlock it and go into like the open web version of DeFi and be like, \"Yeah, yolo, you know,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3347s"},{"start_seconds":3355,"text":"put put 10% of my assets and like go find me the crazy yield, right?\" Um, and and but you know, for the average user,","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3355s"},{"start_seconds":3363,"text":"one of the critical things is you need to keep them safe, right? We need to keep them safe. We need to be very opinionated about how to keep a user safe. Um, the last thing we want to do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3363s"},{"start_seconds":3372,"text":"is be like, hey, we've got a safer version of Binance and then we send them to Cream Finance and wreck them, right?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3372s"},{"start_seconds":3376,"text":"Like that's not a good outcome. So we need to we need to curate uh these outcomes so that uh and I think that that that constrained solution space for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3376s"},{"start_seconds":3384,"text":"an AI actually is quite good because a user then doesn't need to sense check the AI and they can be like well anything that recommends within this set","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3384s"},{"start_seconds":3392,"text":"is going to be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean one thing that I mean not not uh in short term but we're starting to invest is actually a effectively end to end","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3392s"},{"start_seconds":3401,"text":"form ofification which should include smart contracts transactions and intents and so ideally in the intent yourself","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3401s"},{"start_seconds":3409,"text":"you say hey and I don't I'm not going to lose money for example and so your literally intent will not match with any set of actions that I'm not willing to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3409s"},{"start_seconds":3418,"text":"I'm not willing to say that there's a trade there that's that's a that's a future But I mean the conditions are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3418s"},{"start_seconds":3425,"text":"obviously more wide. But I'm just saying like the fu the future actually will be about the intent itself specifying effectively level of risk and level of kind of opportunity. Are you looking?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3425s"},{"start_seconds":3436,"text":"Yeah. I mean I think one of the other um like what would be a really good outcome here is hopefully that we can just do this faster because of AI. I mean we're even on the team right some of our","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3436s"},{"start_seconds":3445,"text":"developers are sort of the AI developer man. They're just cranking code. They're like man find me those Tailwind classes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3445s"},{"start_seconds":3451,"text":"make my thing like this. Um, but you know, I just made a bunch of like I my design skill is like doesn't exist and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3451s"},{"start_seconds":3460,"text":"just made a bunch of mocks like with this tool for the presentation. Like I didn't need to go to designer because like with designer I need to go back","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3460s"},{"start_seconds":3469,"text":"bunch back and forth here. I just like oh well actually I want it this way. No, I change the colors you know make it like this. And so I like created like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3469s"},{"start_seconds":3477,"text":"you know 50 screens pick two put it on my slides. Yeah. I mean I I'll walk back the statement. It doesn't matter anymore cuz I can hear our design team's hearts breaking in real time. Like it it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3477s"},{"start_seconds":3486,"text":"matters. It it does it matters. Yeah, we we we we love we we really love our design team. But like it does actually have a large productivity kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3486s"},{"start_seconds":3495,"text":"uplift. And then once like the work that you're doing with Intense and coupling that with AI, you know, we should be able to get to the more interesting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3495s"},{"start_seconds":3503,"text":"stuff faster because of this. That would be that would be a great outcome. Well, I'm I'm excited with Intense and Fiat to start as well. Exactly. We need like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3503s"},{"start_seconds":3511,"text":"pretty much annihilate the choke point type opportunity completely. Uh I guess the last question. Are you renaming to AI FX?","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3511s"},{"start_seconds":3521,"text":"Yeah. No, I've had enough. No more rebrands for me. I've had one too many rebrands. I'm good. I'm good. I think we're out of time. Thanks for sitting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3521s"},{"start_seconds":3529,"text":"down. It was amazing conversation and I'm excited to see, you know, 100 million users from you by end of year.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3529s"},{"start_seconds":3536,"text":"Yeah. All right, let's go. Awesome.","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc&t=3536s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y89EXPkr-Oc","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/Y89EXPkr-Oc"}