{"id":"P4gKz_S_Waw","title":"NEAR AMA w Frax Finance Founder Sam Kazemian AI, PMF, DeFi, Cross-Chain Interoperability.","description":"AMA with Frax Finance https://x.com/FraxFinance","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-12-04T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/P4gKz_S_Waw/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"BL okay welcome welcome we have a special episode where we have an AMA with Sam uh from fra finance and uh we I'm sure we're going to go into few different direction but specifically diving in into crypto economics and how to think about tokens their value acru digital Commodities and how all of this works and I'm sure we'll touch more on uh some of the other interesting topics St quick shout out from you and then uh we can dive in yeah thanks for having me Ilia yeah uh for people who don't know about uh fra fra we call it uh the decentralized Central Bank of crypto where uh stable coin isser and LSD issuer asset issuer um and then also recently launched fraxel our high performance modular L2 and um we are really good at designing mechanism token economics and uh um basically right now actually is a is a great time to talk about this topic because everyone's talking about meme coins toonomic designs what the differen is between L1 l2s what are uh L l1's really supposed to be valued as are they parasitic how do you value uh near AI Solana and and all these things and uh it's a I think the most interesting topic in crypto right as as prices are uh mostly going up and some more than others uh we'll uh we'll likely see which ones out form if we have a good understanding of these assets all right so maybe I kind of we we scheduled this because of your Tweet around effectively like hey you should not think about discounted cash flow when you are evaluating layer one assets you really should be thinking as a digital commodity and kind of looking through that lens right there's like a few different routes so maybe just start kind of you know outline that thesis and uh let's let's kind of Spar a little bit around that and then we can go and kind of apply it to few different places you know like beam coins and other things HP is you know well xrp is definitely a lot of things especially recently sure it's actually uh I I put it out in a tweet thread and I think it got a lot of uh a lot of talk and actually um vitalic actually talked to me a little bit about it on uh signal about how to think about eth the asset because it's actually um that was actually my motivation my view about this stuff is that there's only two types of Assets in crypto it's very simple there's digital Commodities like Bitcoin like L1 uh tokens that I call Sovereign Commodities and then there's everything else that is going to be uh valued at discounted cash flow I call DCF coins right discounted cash flow future valuation of how to Value all of the cash flow that's coming and the difference between these two assets is one is structurally a digital commodity like gold and it never makes sense to talk about any kind of cash flow right like if you think about it the Bitcoin Network the BTC holders uh get zero cash flow no Burns nothing they never have any expectation of anything uh from the Bitcoin Network it's just structurally different and then it doesn't make any coherent sense it's not in the Overton window so to speak right the the acceptable discourse of how to even talk about the asset uh about like fees or like hey when do when do Bitcoin BTC holders get like uh part of the fees from the you know from the uh transactions no they just all go to minors minors are like workers they're not the shareholders right and so you can think about structurally crypto tokens is just two different things either they represent something like a digital commodity or they represent what I call like labor right like the labor that goes into building a product right whether it's a defi protocol whether it's a stable coin whether it's a like some ecosystem lending protocol amm and then the token represents that product right and and the value you know mostly fees but value you can get for uh building that product it literally represents labor right and and so like DCF coins are uh I call them PE DCF coins right price to earnings discounted cash flow coins is that uh those will always be valued by people the predominant discussion around them is how to actually value like model the discounted cash flow equation right and then my contention actually the in in the thread uh my motivation was two things one is making sure that ethereum is not improperly uh improperly uh valued as a PCF coin because I think that that's been the biggest mistake in ethereum valuation the past two three years and then two giving a like a guide or like essentially like a scientific thesis of how to turn a token uh into one or the other uh in terms of mechanism design and like social uh engineering because at the end of the day all of these things are are social right money is social right they're just you know cashes pictures of Dead Presidents the only reason they do anything is because we socially agree that you know handing them around actually does something so uh my main motivation was how do you actually provide a uh guide book for people and and actually the reason is fra also is actually coming up with their own uh toonomic revamp with the fxs share token it's getting renamed to just fra it's actually being announced uh later in December and it's actually going to be more like a sovereign commodity so I had to think about all this stuff and see how it applied actually I was looking at near and Solana and and ethereum and uh everything to know exactly how uh these things should work uh and a lot of blockchains are a little bit better than others um in terms of this this system and my whole thesis is that essentially if you're in the pecf bucket right your your token represents a product uh and if you're in the digital commodity bucket right and a lot of people mistake digital commodity for like monetary premium and then like because the word monetary premium is really really loose just means anything oh like store it as a store value use it or spend it or settle it and then it gets really confusing but digital commodity right digital gold digital silver like just like a uh that actually is very clear because like it means that there is no coherent way to talk about cash flows right if if you think of real gold even if there were industrial use cases of gold that somehow changed its like molecular makeup like the the Alchemy of like gold like someone figured out a way to use gold and then it changed it to like lead right like reverse Alchemy people wouldn't say oh well that's the uh dividend right rate of of like gold right uh even though EIP 1559 for people listening eth gets burned every block from the base fees that doesn't mean it should be you know thought of as a equity like token right it doesn't mean those those should be thought of as like dividends it's one kind of digital use case of ethereum it happens to digitally take it out of circulation but it doesn't actually mean that ethereum should actually be thought of as anything different than uh Bitcoin in fact near as well near I think is actually one of the most interesting assets because I I'm actually extremely extremely bullish as you know on your guys is unique AI thesis and as digital AI commodity money uh and and like the the thing with like near is it's it's actually like a very special kind of commodity if it can become this like AI uh digital gold essentially as as well as all the utility that it it actually has and the most important thing is to not have uh the Overton window right the acceptable course of structural discussion socially be uh dividends and cash flow for for Sovereign assets like near like Bitcoin like like ethereum like Solana there's obviously things like uni token from uniswap right like this is like it it represents kind of like e equity in the uniswap Dow or the amm and and things like that and everyone's like when fee switch when fee switch right but no one uh even thinks coherently about Bitcoin like that right and that's what's most important yeah so I mean obviously we agree a lot on how this works and uh so but maybe just for the audience let's kind of decompose it a little bit right I think one of the big like conflicting thoughts is because indeed money is such a wide term right that captures a lot of things um people generally default for like to to money to like dollars right Euro kind of some the default current like Fiat currencies and the thing is like those currencies are designed in a very different way right than what we're trying to achieve here because they're designed to be a unit of exchange they're not designed to uh be kind of indeed this digital commodity of the ecosystem and kind of the the productive work that's done there and so because of that the supply of usually Fiat currencies right is you know fluctuating depending on the needs of the of the of the country and I think that's to me that's what like one of the things where you know people throw oh like this is digital money Etc like that's been one of the things where like actually if you decompose what money means right it can mean unit of exchange unit of account it can have store of value so like there's different functions um that we assigned to money and then different assets like commodity like gold digital commodity like Bitcoin can play different functions as well in different roles right and and so I think that that that is like a very um to me at least be an important distinction when kind of analyzing like what what this asset like what role this asset needs to play at what time and uh so I think like digital commodi is a really good way to lended because you say hey uh yeah nobody thinks of like hey how much gold was burnt right this year like that's not that's not a thing that uh and there is industrial use cases there is you know jewelry use cases there's all kinds of ways people are using gold as well as just storing it you know because they believe like either believe of it's future value or you know they use it as an alternative to whatever world events Etc and so kind of app Ling the same principles here is like and this was your example right like yeah you know if even if we burn some of some of the the asset it doesn't mean that like there's other use cases and I think I think really important part is the defi itself is one of the biggest industrial use cases and the reasons actually for ethereum's Value appreciation kind of in defi summer last year uh last uh you know few years ago because it's effectively was sucking in so much e into this D5 pools and as assets were increasing in price you needed to have you know equal amount of e in that pool and so it kind of created this natural demand and that wasn't about burning right it was act you know it was provided liquidity was it was sitting there but it was creating this like massive demand for B asset and so uh from like valueing perspective like you know stock flow on effectively uh other assets launching was the as the liquidity and I think like that that's kind of a good model and I think salana right now showing this with mcoins right because there is like 20,000 mcoins launched you need to have you know bunch of soul in the pool that kind of social contract of using S as like main uh pair creates this kind of massive ramp up on on the use case for Solon right and obviously you know there's all this other use cases like transaction fees and storage and uh you know what you you know for St staking itself is also a use case because it kind of syns token as well but all of that together is creating this kind of multi-industry uh use cases of of the asset yeah and and that's a really good point and I actually as as you were saying everything there there's three things I wanted to uh highlight and from the top the first thing you said was very interesting and that National currencies are indeed totally different from uh money in terms of like Bitcoin money right like National currencies are supposed to be pegged to a standard of living so like most people don't really think about the dollar like this but the dollar is a stable coin right it's pegged to the CPI plus 2.5% Target of inflation so people spend it rather than just hoarded right so like it has a Peg and the peg is a basket of consumer items so it's meant to actually keep your standard of living like the same right you're supposed to be able to buy the same amount of Medical Care shelter food oil you know all of this stuff rent uh that that uh the dollar is pegged to right and so that's actually the the main big difference is like uh in BTC or like hard commodity like digital Commodities like they're not the same as a currency currency is meant to keep your standard of living the same and an investment on on the other hand which everyone says invest in Bitcoin invest in near uh you know invest in like fra and and stuff like that what that means is if it's a good investment it should actually increase your standard of living right that's the definition essentially of a investment so you should be able to trade it in for more currency which is an abstraction for standard of living right and actually it was our kind of research in this that fra actually issued the first uh CPI Peg currency it's called the fra price index fpi and so we've thought a lot about this because uh our experiments in this area um and like novel stablecoin pegs basically led us to the fact that there's basically scarce assets right like like digital Commodities in crypto and then there's everything else there that is like PCF flow or everything this third category that people sometimes conflate with Bitcoin which is the stable currencies that are either pegged to a national unit which is just trying to do the same thing whether they fail or not right it's is irrelevant some countries definitely fail by not being able to Peg to a standard of living but um those are basically the so I I thought that those those were really good points that you made uh originally about that and so that's why I think usually I try not to say uh monetary premium and stuff like that because people conflate like currency and and money in store of value and they're not the same things neither technically nor academically and and like uh e economics and things like that right and so your your second point was AB absolutely fantastic too about uh very astute about the use case of these things like in eth Defi and actually like you said early uh like last year and and early this year like basically 2023 2024 the reaking phras absolutely exploded right the concept of reaking was was created by igen lay and like uh billions and billions of of uh eth was restak and then new reaking protocols came everyone wanted to get additional points air drops and incentives on eth and then lo and behold eth became $44,000 right it became it almost actually got to its all-time high and then as as like the the meme coin craze on Solana took off right uh and people sort of forgot about reaking then eth completely kind of retraced all of its gains back to like 2200 or whatever and then Solana exploded and everyone started saying oh my God is going to you know flip Bitcoin uh eth and then maybe Bitcoin or something like that and you actually had a good point because I actually went and looked at this I actually went and saw how much soul is being paired by uh every single meme coin that's launched on pump. fun and literally right now on radium alone uh at least a couple percent like one to two and a half percent of all Soul literally like all soul in existence is paired against the Su total of all of these like uh meme coins right and and like that alone that might not sound like a lot but then in order for people to trade that much they also that creates another three to four five% demand of people buying soul to participate in in all of these this liquidity and that alone like the I can layer and reaking uh thing was the crazy crazy utility and use case of the digital commodity of Solana right and of soul and eth was for reaking and they're kind of like digital industrial use cases as you said really really well that it's really important to actually see that these things do coincide with like use cases they they literally track causally to them it's it's not it has way less to do with cash flow right and and like some people um you know show charts oh my god look the the like Solana fees are like going up at at the same time obviously as like everyone's trading mem coins but the p& like soul is like absolutely like ridiculous if it actually was valued at p& right and discounted cash flow and it's much clearer that it's valued as a digital commodity that has a very high demand flow of industrial use cases right and um I think the most interesting question really to uh as a result is how do we actually create assets that are like digital Commodities and don't get like mistaken for uh pecf cash flow which is kind of what I was trying to uh write in in my writings and and tweet and stuff because if eth can sort of mistakenly be over the number of years be more and more talked about as a DCF coin right because everyone's talking about EIP 1559 and and and stuff and less like Bitcoin uh can you turn a token the other direction can you turn a token that everyone talks about PE DCF cash flow and can you actually change its mechanics so that everyone thinks of it more like Bitcoin right because you could apparently go the other way right like that that's what people have accidentally seemed to be doing with ethereum where the first 10 years or eight years it was like silver to Bitcoins gold people even said that right you you are uh people probably remember everyone saying digital oil Digital Silver and now it's all cash flow how much is burned should we increase the the the blobs increase like dividends to to eth holders and like let's model the p& DCF of like the the EIP 1559 Burns should we optimize that or this or and so it's becoming more like should we optimize the company right cash flows of the the organization or something like that rather than the way to think about it like you know things like Bitcoin and um you know other assets that have actually done this well there's also one last thing is there's also this prevailing view that only Bitcoin can do this and like this Bitcoin has this like annoyed uh you know thing of like you're saying you're going to be a better Bitcoin no one's going to buy it this is BS show us how much fees or Revenue you're making or something I don't buy that at all I I don't think these things are binary like what you can be a digital commodity that's not trying to be digital gold there's many digital Commodities in real life as well right like I was saying there's silver oil like magnesium platium you know all of this stuff right and obviously those are metaphors but the point is it's not binary right and and so like if you actually have a proper way of Designing a digital asset and you create the right Overton window boundaries of where you should actually have acceptable discourse right if the if the mechanism doesn't even allow certain types of coherent discussion of how to Dividend fees or something like that then that's actually how you can turn a previous kind of governance token into a sovereign asset so yeah I mean I think so there's two two parts here I think one the is this Bitcoin and everything else or there's like indeed different types of digital commodity assets I think where Bitcoin has obviously a huge leg up is is kind of in the meme value right in attention value and kind of the way I usually look at any asset right is is a combination of mean value utility value so like use case mess value and uh which is like are people willing to accept this effectively as collateral as pay like as some some form of like money and then the governance value which is like which is is by holding this asset am I able to you know benefit in the future right so uh from some decision- making and like to me it's always like this combination right and different assets have different weights on this thing and indeed you can talk about it differently depending how you look at it but you know Nvidia for example is you know purely utility right nobody's using like Nvidia for money there is governance value but it's also like you know Jensen's running that like a that ship but the multiple to their revenue is clearly showing this is a you know because the attention and mean value is so high they have way higher multiple on their revenue and so that's kind of what kind of like it's important to understand that the attention translates into massive multiples and also you know like the more liquid asset itself is being the easier it is for people to build positions and then you have a better like stock flow Etc so I think the the examples here that's good because I was actually just reading the xrp thread right where xrp is effect actually used as uh as what should be used to stable coin uh because like people like what bridge was doing right you come in from you know one country you exchange to xrp you move to another bank and that bank exchanges back to the local currency and you know because this works so fast they're okay with you know some volatility on xrp but what this creates is massive volume right because like if nothing else is just creates a ton of volume around the world and now you have ton of Market Mak because you have ton of kind of participants in the network and that uh creates obviously like opportunity for people to come in and and really uh you know build positions and kind of um uh move the market as well when when uh when there's not enough not enough Supply and so to me th those are interesting kind of aspects of this as well and it's true I think commodity Market is very similar right depending on how liquid the market is how good the Futures actually Market is like people use it like people use the Futures Market sometimes as as a way to build like really interesting uh instruments even if they don't really care about the underlying right like you know the Futures on whatever corn a really good like weather prediction or something like this so yeah so I think there's there's a lot of interesting things where um the DCF model just kind of you know is can be a part of the use case from perspective of uh again the either the governance component or the one of the use cases of utility but it kind of yeah really misses on for example I mean this this is actually the the purest example is you know let's imagine Sam we decide to launch a new layer one right and you know we launch it we launch it with a new token uh we say hey everybody should stay you know to validate the network um that right away creates some Demand on the token that right away creates like even though the network doesn't do anything yet we just created a factory already a use case for this asset um and uh that itself creates value right and so I think that those are and depending on how much attention effective we can create around this thing how much people excited about it that will kind of put it at different positions on on that multiple of over over the use case of of of the staking so I think that those are interesting ways to kind of think about like to me those components how like how they work together sometimes and how for different assets they kind of in different buckets um so that's why like I don't think DCF in itself is bad it's just like you cannot use that to evaluate the market cap because there's all this other component that will come together to actually construct it yeah I I think that's really well said I I don't think DCF is is bad either however there's one thing uh that like if you actually use the DCF model right the pricing power is bidirectional right it doesn't just add actual like market cap to a token so otherwise everyone will try to add everything right like into like the model of how to Value something the the danger is if everyone is using like or most people are using pecf flow right then they're going to say hey this is overvalued why the heck is like you know ethereum with $3 billion of burns uh like worth you know $400 billion while apple with $400 billion dollar of annual like revenue is only worth like 9x more than more than uh ethereum with over like 400 uh X or something of uh or 100x of of like Revenue right that that's like a order two orders of magnitude off and so people will like short it right and and so it it's a it's a lot of um things about creating this Overton window of like what is the acceptable uh structural discourse and what makes sense and he actually said something great about Nvidia or like stocks in general is I actually believe like if it wasn't for the uh Securities laws which are good I'm not saying anything bad about them but the the tra traditional Financial custodial uh laws and and securities laws uh it's actually totally possible and likely that um equ ities would be actually at least even thought about of maybe being used like within the App Store maybe you could buy literally like app Apple uh iPhone apps with Apple stock and and like this is like one thing that people thought would happen with uh like the original Ico tokens and stuff but the reason that never took off was the tokens were like not liquid and big enough but you see this happening with Ethan Bitcoin and really big stuff like like NE and and Solana clearly like they do buy stuff with soul eth BTC a little bit now and if if the custodial laws were not so that like literally you can't hold the stock in a non-custodial manner you hold it through a series of chains of custodians they don't transfer it for two days later so the only thing you can do is is invest in them or like sell them right so the only thing you can do is value them as PCF in fact the SEC goes out of their way in like whenever the meme stock frenzy or something happens right they like put out a you know like a disclaimer or they like go to the company and say like you know put out a press release say like this is you don't understand why the pric is like this to discourage any type of pricing function uh other than PCF because they basically the their goal is to make markets orderly which means to actually make sure that equities are like valued as pecf if anyone tries to actually and structurally they've created a like a financial system that disc scourage is not to the letter of the law right like it's not illegal to to exchange Apple stock for like something like a car or like a computer or something but but it's structurally impossible because it's it's have multiple custodians brokerage the uh the um us like uh Trust Company the dtcc or whatever it's called that holds all the actual physical stock certificates and then the digital representations of them right and so it's literally impossible to use equities as like uh anything other than PCF right and in traditional Finance crypto is the first time you could actually have these two things that have both PCF valuation and like monetary commodity industrial use cases be used in a digital way uh and that's why it's confusing for a lot of people because they they're not used like they they're like trained mentally right for for Generations right uh to think about okay is this PCF like is it a stock is this not PCS is a commodity or like some kind of currency money or something like that and in fact I think that um The mcoin Craze actually proves my my theory kind of correct because I was talking to marad who's you know big memec coin thesis guy um and uh he actually I think thinks about things the same way because meme coins are like the embodiment of Bitcoin it's like Fair launch there's a fixed Supply there's no way to actually increase it there is no governance of anything because it's it's literally by definition the token is the product there's no there is no product that the token is the the meme is the product right and and so the fact that they can have cumulatively billions maybe now tens of billions at least because because you know things like uh whff dog with hat and and all these things probably in the tens uh of billions now um in total the fact that they can have that market cap proves that it's not just Bitcoin it's not just Bitcoin and Dogecoin is the only other fluke right and uh that actually I think proves the thesis correct is you can create digital Commodities you have to do it right and so I think my my personal view is there there's two important things one is you have to not necessarily have no emissions or like you know like some kind of like stop but you have to have a clear fixed emission equation whatever that is like even even Bitcoin right now everyone knows it's 21 million but it's not 21 million until 20 uh like like 100 years from now 2142 is that the exact year that's that's fine that's good that's how it works right you have to have a fixed emission schedule and you have to change the uh Overton window where it doesn't structurally make sense to actually talk about uh the burns or anything like that as anything other than industrial use cases on chain and that that's my my view on it at least yeah that makes sense um and again I I think actually yeah the examples that like we have a bunch of like pretty high valued meme coins which to me is example of that like they actually don't even have industrial use case like nobody's somewhere like stuck in bnk because they're going to be like able to you know do cross cross country tra whatever International trades through bnk right like which you know what's kind of a use case for Bitcoin for a while is like hey very liquid asset we're able to do international trade uh so it's really purely just the attention and kind of the community of people who are like hey this is effectively the commodity we like this is like this is our gold right we wear we wear this on you know on our it's our jewelry it's their jewelry yeah exactly I mean that to me actually Dodge and bonk are examples of jewelry like these like that's a use case if fact people have is like hey I'm part of this community this is how you know I associate and uh you know and you can have multiple like it's not this the other thing is not exclusive right you cannot like oh I only wear gold I never wear silver right no it's like you can have multiple different you know jewelry kind of uh which made of different different uh uh thing but yeah like this is jewelry of the of the Modern Age yeah I mean that's actually that that could be a meme itself right like uh do doge is digital jewelry doge is the swag right do dog with hat and that's like actually a good way to put it especially because usually jewelry is made from digital Commodities right like like gold and and all these things in fact you need soul to generate digital jewelry on pump. fun because you need to actually pair it with uh Soul as as the uh liquidity which makes a lot of sense right it's actually see the parallel of like you need to use this commodity to generate digital jewelry uh that has use case and I think that's a really the really cool way to put it and and the idea is like what what I think is important is as long as there is a fixed immutable emission uh equation and an easy way to communicate uh the actual like total Supply whether that is right now or not right like as long as you can communicate it so that the Overton window is is very clear like hey this is just I can describe this asset in one sentence right 21 million uh Bitcoin or like even if it's just like one million tokens get uh printed every year forever like even though like that that actually it's like decreasing emissions but it's forever actually that's what Dogecoin is I believe it's like 10 billion Doge a year or something like that and uh that's that's fine and then you can actually even one thing we're thinking of with with uh um fxs the Frack share token that we're about to announce the the relaunch of the this new ticker that's just fra and much cleaner and you can validate things on on fraxel and and the AI functionality that we've been talking about a little bit between each other is like if you can actually fix the emission uh but you actually make it so that the the actual tail emissions go to some kind of contract right like like a tail emission system contract on the chain and then you actually are able to allocate those tail emissions in a more versatile way and that could be where the government power is but there can never be any actual tail emission change to the Token unless there's like a hard Fork of the network which is same thing with Bitcoin right and in theory in theory like Bitcoin can change 21 million if there was a hard Fork but it's so socially contentious it'll never work right so what you do is you aify the most important property you need to aify which is like this tail emission can never be changed otherwise the entire social contract is like broken and you can like point to the the tail emission like equation the one that actually computes to the full Max Supply and then from that you can actually program modules like does it go to validator security does it go to like AI inference validators does it go to like uh defi growth like economic growth or something like that but nothing can ever change this tail emissions and then if you do want to do burns right like like a um like things like EIP 1559 you actually make it clear that these burns are actually not dividends right they're basically industrial use cases of the infrastructure right now people finally understand EIP 1559 is kind of like burning digital oil but the issue is it has two years plus of ethereum uh Narrative of like this a dividend that has to be undone right but if if you have a new community that's better understanding of this you can have things like top level like domains that you to buy that uh like like do near you know dot Frack stuff like that that permanently burn stuff right those are just like infrastructural things base fees that are just infrastructural things for how the chain uh actually needs to run right other things that you know are are devised over a number of years and those get burned and and those go strictly into this like immutable burn like system equation where whenever these assets go here they just get burned forever and you can't change that either unless you actually go through a hard fork and um that's actually like I think the most important way the Simplicity of just being able to socially enshrine these things and then just let people coordinate and aify the most important social like like factors of an asset while being able to be versatile with governance of the of the like tail emissions to a certain degree that is how you maximize uh the actual value of of the digital commodity yeah so this is actually exactly what we've been looking at with House of stake is to effec the build that governance of T So near from the start had part of T Mission going to affect to the treasury account that I mean up to now has not been used at all and so but has this kind of perpetuity emission in in it and so uh kind of weworking with gauntlet on the design of this house of stake uh system with which is indeed St like token holders stakeholders St staking uh representatives are able to decide on where to allocate the submissions which indeed can be defi growth or you know maybe sponsoring more validators or doing these things and so um I agree that that that is like a it's a way better programmatic approach versus you know at Genesis trying to predefine uh and you know who who who will receive what and then hoping that like you know like one of the challenges that we were trying to fix is that like there was no continuous budget for continuous development of the protocol you know and and obviously growth and other things and so like how do you like you do need some form of that and again there's nothing wrong with a new digital asset created right like it's the same with commodi is being mined all the time like we don't expect you know gold to like yes is some amount per year and like maybe it fluctuates but uh we don't expect that to run out but I think the there's need for kind of supporting the ecosystem and technology and everything which can be used through this mechanism but maybe to turn around the question kind of you're you're postulating a very clear statement which is like hey the effectively the tail inflation kind of formula should be fixed and so I'm actually curious because this is something something we've been discussing as well across the ecosystem because we haven't really designed that very you know um like initially when we launch near right now it's a good time to like hey this is how we want it to be for next you know 100,000 years but obviously even the fact that you want to change it now is kind of introducing this idea that this is changeable so I'm curious kind of how you think about that like how should people approach those kind of things yeah so I think like um that that's a very very well said in terms of actually I think the reason near is such a great asset is like you you guys currently work exactly the right way of this emissions goes to you know one place and then uh this separation of uh concerns right like the most important thing to like IM IM create as immutable is the equation right it's doesn't matter as much people used to confusingly think oh both the location and the emission needs to be like fixed permanently and then you create this situation where you there's no way no one can predict the future in terms of all the different places that you you want to actually spend this digital commodity right like spend like you said the gold that's mined out right but if you're going to program a a a sovereign asset that has a very very solid immutable social contract what you have to do is you have to actually fix the emission but you don't need to fix the exact place where it's going to go a 100 years like over the next like 10 20 30 100 years right and that's what's really important is like I think that that's basically what uh Bitcoin got right I think that's what Dogecoin got right because the equation is very simple like right and and uh if I ask you right now how much what what's the uh Supply of ethereum going to be in 2030 I I couldn't tell you I know it's like right now it's 120 million something but I don't know in 2030 if it's going to be like and and forget the burns pretend there's no burn I we could just add the burns later but but just how much is The Tail emission I actually don't know because it's it's actually very difficult it's like called minimum viable issuance and I actually don't know what it is off the top of my head and I feel like I'm a pretty technical person myself like in terms of like uh trying to keep up with everything but um that's what's important is a a simple emission equation that can be aifi socially right and then uh if there's going to be Burns in infrastructure uh things like base fees and like infrastructural industrial use cases they get immutably put into this system burn contract and you can actually we we're experimenting this very interesting way of like if emissions slow down right like if every year they uh go down by 10% or they have or something like that the burns from like the token from the burn engine right the contract they can programmatically uh because because the burn engine is fixed too right they can go the other direction so they go into the emissions system contract so for example as the actual raw emissions like slowly go down the the tokens going into the burn contract that get burned less of those get fully burned and then some of them get sent to the uh emission contract as the actual uh real emissions go down so that you always have this security budget right one of the main biggest issues with like uh Bitcoin that people currently bring up it's too early to know but is the security budget right if you have every uh four years and if Bitcoin is not doubling in price at least every four years so so far is looking way more than doubling every four years at least but uh the idea is like if the you know purchasing power parody of BTC doesn't double every four years then Bitcoin loses security as a tradeoff right and uh that seems kind of bad right like that that's not part of the the design and so the reason like ethereum has like this fixed uh minimum viable issuance forever that makes it a little bit difficult to understand how much the actual Supply currently is or will be is that they don't want that security budget issue to be part of the over window of like legitimate discussion well one way you can do that is you could still have a fixed Supply that kind of tapers off right to to like a clear number at a clear year but you have this Burn System that tapers up so like at that like year uh as as the burns actually go more of them get sent to the emission contract and then the actual emissions that hit the max Supply and the emissions go to zero there's still security budget funding so there's this concept of like this smooth like regression in both sides where like if you can increase the industrial use case of the digital commodity over the lifetime of emissions that it's like mined or like emitted or things like that then you create a sustainable economy by combining the two equations like that's one of the kind of modeling and research that we're doing that uh when we announced the fxs uh revamp right um actually very close like in the next two weeks uh we show what we've come up with I mean I think because like Bitcoin also has I mean effectively the the transaction fees that are going to minor so I mean there's some other like more technical problems around like selfish Mining and re rewards Etc that comes when you don't have block rewards but I mean kind of what you're describing is not that different from from kind of you know idea that Bitcoin inflation tapers off and you know presumably just transaction fees will be the ones covering the the uh security budget uh I mean we've taken a little bit different approach yeah where where and there's an interesting kind of also perspective like burning fees but then effectively remitting back what was burned uh and there's like an interesting thing about like burning fees you kind of disconnect the source of funds um from like a kind of a tracing perspective and like newly minted even though it's effective the same math right newly minted are coming in in a very in like you know from clean address from system address but I think I mean there is a there is something about like I agree that something about like a Simplicity of the function kind of gives such a powerful story to tell versus and where where if you position it as digital commodity indeed like it's it's just an easier way to think about like you want you want an easy way to think about Supply and then kind of how it's going to be used and so in that case actually yeah like you don't even need to burn anything now you can just like stash it into the into some pool because like it just lock it locks there like effectively the same thing like that that I mean there was a joke uh on Twitter before where you know uh the you know you can give homeless person $100 so you can burn a $100 and you know homeless person got more value from that H as so as everybody else right so but like in the same kind of spirit yeah like B burning is effectively doesn't really change the economics and I think that's that's been clear for ethereum where even though it was you know negative deflation the price was still going down which like economically if it's a deflationary asset you w you wouldn't sell it right just like economically that should be the the approach right if if you are thinking of this as just purely deflationary asset which which it wases not uh actually I'll actually take a even more Hardline stance on it which like not only does it not increase the value it actually decreases the value I'll even go further because remember in ter terms of what my main concern is is like if you can talk about dividends from an asset you actually get everyone to start modeling it as like uh a DCF cash flow asset and like for example when you look at the ETF traditional Financial people right and they're trying to sell their BTC and eth ETFs right they don't talk about cash flow for the BTC ETF because Bitcoin makes no sense but then they all educate all of the older generation of people on DC oh ethereum is like a digital business like a global computer and it burns like like things here's how much revenue it's made and then like people will say oh this thing is overvalued like why is this worth $400 billion do if it's only made four billion the the prior week I'm not going to buy it but oh Bitcoin might get bought by like the fed and like the the new Trump Administration uh let me go buy that because that's the story right and and you said it really well yourself which is like the easy to communicate like social you know equation of like the fixed Supply or the fixed emissions is a way for people to coordinate on a aifi social contract right you can't you can't aify a social contract that people can't clearly describe right because like that that's the main thing is like you need everyone to coordinate on something that they all understand and the even the slight diff like difficult thing to understand every some people get you know uh mentally priced out essentially of coordinating in in this direction so yeah yeah yeah that's a good point well I mean there's a lot of topics here uh we we covered some of them um as we're approaching end of the hour anything that like I mean you guys obviously shipping a lot of stuff and announcing things so anything you want to kind of close up um that frax is doing that people should know yeah I mean well we're extremely excited about collaborating with near Ai and and everything that we've talked about and also getting uh fra assets um even more used in in near Defi and we're going to actually announce and in this this road map that I was referring to both the fxs revamp of it being a sovereign commodity but tons of other things where we're going to issue uh fra USD uh natively mint redeemable on near obviously and and other kind of yield bearing places that people can enjoy this asset on near and then more long term the most important thing uh I think that I'm extremely excited that that we've talked about is how to team up in Sovereign AI actual onchain stateful uh AI agents that are tokenized and and uh co- ownable because this actually goes really really well into what we were just talking about with pecf versus Commodities is like as AI gets better and better uh their AI tokens essentially the the real AI tokens not mem coins but real AI tokens that let you co-own a growing and and useful and trained stateful Sovereign uh AI agent are going to be the most valuable pecf you know the count discounted cash flow tokens because they're the ones doing all of the work right like they're the ones that are going to be doing all of the trading and things like that and the the other non AI tokens are going to be digital Commodities that do really well right because those are the only things that in the end actually have in a post kind of AI world have economic value because of their scarcity and their social coordination and their use case their industrial use cases right because PCF essentially is going to be abstracted to AI right because AI is going to be doing the work for like pretty much everything and I think the cash flow tokens will eventually just represent a certain AI agent that's actually my long-term view on this is like we've talked about where I think the the best like value to to Value AI agents will be eventually the the sovereignty of the agent like how Sovereign is it actually what the token represents and then DCF of the token how much the actual AI agent can earn over the the plethora of things that it's actually doing I don't think you know earning a few bips um traditionally on like fees or something like that from a smart contract is going to uh be the winning valuation metric for for tokens it's going to be Ai and it's going to be uh Sovereign digital assets and that's what we're actually super excited to uh deeply collaborate on like in a in a real manner with with near AI so I'll end it there yeah no totally agree and uh I I in general think AI is effect is the last tech wave and so effectively all of the everything where we care about the outcome not the process will be automated that's like just you know you care about how you know musician plays music not about the outcome right so like that there you play you care about how people play sports but anywhere where you care about the outcome right will be automated sot I mean over time and like you know there's a but especially for anything that's digital like digital first and so I agree that a lot of this kind of will be done by agents and so yes autonomous agents effectively is autonomous Corporation that can have token holders that are you benefiting from these Corporation operations but it's you know provable verifiable private Etc with all those properties and that will be representing DCF and then everything else is kind of yeah is more of a digital commodity that this agents are going to be using themselves to interact with the world yeah I I think the the most interesting concept to end out with we've been talking about digital Commodities is I think the most likely thing to be AI digital money maybe it's Bitcoin I think near is is uh very very likely to be the the the one I and and like you know we have our own view on how to uh structure things like to make it AI commodity money but I actually think that has the highest market cap potential uh of anything after after Bitcoin digital gold itself so it's going to be an exciting year I agree all right well thank you for coming I hope it was informative for folks kind of expanding on on your thesis and how we're thinking about this and yeah I'm sure we we'll do more of these things thank you thanks I","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:13:08.127Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":5,"text":"BL","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=5s"},{"start_seconds":47,"text":"okay welcome welcome we have a special episode where we have an AMA with Sam uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=47s"},{"start_seconds":53,"text":"from fra finance and uh we I'm sure we're going to go into few different direction but specifically diving in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=53s"},{"start_seconds":62,"text":"into crypto economics and how to think about tokens their value acru digital","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=62s"},{"start_seconds":69,"text":"Commodities and how all of this works and I'm sure we'll touch more on uh some of the other interesting topics St quick","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=69s"},{"start_seconds":77,"text":"shout out from you and then uh we can dive in yeah thanks for having me Ilia yeah uh for people who don't know about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=77s"},{"start_seconds":84,"text":"uh fra fra we call it uh the decentralized Central Bank of crypto where uh stable coin isser and LSD issuer asset issuer um and then also","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=84s"},{"start_seconds":93,"text":"recently launched fraxel our high performance modular L2 and um we are really good at designing mechanism token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=93s"},{"start_seconds":102,"text":"economics and uh um basically right now actually is a is a great time to talk about this topic because everyone's talking about meme coins toonomic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=102s"},{"start_seconds":112,"text":"designs what the differen is between L1 l2s what are uh L l1's really supposed","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=112s"},{"start_seconds":118,"text":"to be valued as are they parasitic how do you value uh near AI Solana and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=118s"},{"start_seconds":125,"text":"all these things and uh it's a I think the most interesting topic in crypto right as as prices are uh mostly going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=125s"},{"start_seconds":133,"text":"up and some more than others uh we'll uh we'll likely see which ones out form if we have a good understanding of these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=133s"},{"start_seconds":142,"text":"assets all right so maybe I kind of we we scheduled this because of your Tweet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=142s"},{"start_seconds":148,"text":"around effectively like hey you should not think about discounted cash flow when you are evaluating layer one assets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=148s"},{"start_seconds":158,"text":"you really should be thinking as a digital commodity and kind of looking through that lens right there's like a few","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=158s"},{"start_seconds":164,"text":"different routes so maybe just start kind of you know outline that thesis and uh let's let's kind of Spar a little bit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=164s"},{"start_seconds":172,"text":"around that and then we can go and kind of apply it to few different places you know like beam coins and other things HP is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=172s"},{"start_seconds":180,"text":"you know well xrp is definitely a lot of things especially recently sure it's actually uh I I put it out in a tweet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=180s"},{"start_seconds":189,"text":"thread and I think it got a lot of uh a lot of talk and actually um vitalic actually talked to me a little bit about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=189s"},{"start_seconds":196,"text":"it on uh signal about how to think about eth the asset because it's actually um that was actually my motivation my view","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=196s"},{"start_seconds":203,"text":"about this stuff is that there's only two types of Assets in crypto it's very simple there's digital Commodities like Bitcoin like L1 uh tokens that I call","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=203s"},{"start_seconds":212,"text":"Sovereign Commodities and then there's everything else that is going to be uh valued at discounted cash flow I call","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=212s"},{"start_seconds":219,"text":"DCF coins right discounted cash flow future valuation of how to Value all of the cash flow that's coming and the difference between these two assets is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=219s"},{"start_seconds":228,"text":"one is structurally a digital commodity like gold and it never makes sense to talk about any kind of cash flow right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=228s"},{"start_seconds":236,"text":"like if you think about it the Bitcoin Network the BTC holders uh get zero cash flow no Burns nothing they never have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=236s"},{"start_seconds":243,"text":"any expectation of anything uh from the Bitcoin Network it's just structurally different and then it doesn't make any","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=243s"},{"start_seconds":251,"text":"coherent sense it's not in the Overton window so to speak right the the acceptable discourse of how to even talk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=251s"},{"start_seconds":257,"text":"about the asset uh about like fees or like hey when do when do Bitcoin BTC holders get like uh part of the fees","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=257s"},{"start_seconds":266,"text":"from the you know from the uh transactions no they just all go to minors minors are like workers they're not the shareholders right and so you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=266s"},{"start_seconds":275,"text":"can think about structurally crypto tokens is just two different things either they represent something like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=275s"},{"start_seconds":282,"text":"digital commodity or they represent what I call like labor right like the labor that goes into building a product right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=282s"},{"start_seconds":290,"text":"whether it's a defi protocol whether it's a stable coin whether it's a like some ecosystem lending protocol amm and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=290s"},{"start_seconds":299,"text":"then the token represents that product right and and the value you know mostly fees but value you can get for uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=299s"},{"start_seconds":307,"text":"building that product it literally represents labor right and and so like DCF coins are uh I call them PE DCF","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=307s"},{"start_seconds":315,"text":"coins right price to earnings discounted cash flow coins is that uh those will always be valued by people the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=315s"},{"start_seconds":322,"text":"predominant discussion around them is how to actually value like model the discounted cash flow equation right and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=322s"},{"start_seconds":329,"text":"then my contention actually the in in the thread uh my motivation was two things one is making sure that ethereum","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=329s"},{"start_seconds":337,"text":"is not improperly uh improperly uh valued as a PCF coin because I think that that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=337s"},{"start_seconds":345,"text":"been the biggest mistake in ethereum valuation the past two three years and then two giving a like a guide or like essentially like a scientific thesis of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=345s"},{"start_seconds":354,"text":"how to turn a token uh into one or the other uh in terms of mechanism design and like social uh engineering because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=354s"},{"start_seconds":363,"text":"at the end of the day all of these things are are social right money is social right they're just you know cashes pictures of Dead Presidents the only reason they do anything is because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=363s"},{"start_seconds":371,"text":"we socially agree that you know handing them around actually does something so uh my main motivation was how do you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=371s"},{"start_seconds":378,"text":"actually provide a uh guide book for people and and actually the reason is fra also is actually coming up with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=378s"},{"start_seconds":386,"text":"their own uh toonomic revamp with the fxs share token it's getting renamed to just fra it's actually being announced","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=386s"},{"start_seconds":393,"text":"uh later in December and it's actually going to be more like a sovereign commodity so I had to think about all this stuff and see how it applied actually I was looking at near and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=393s"},{"start_seconds":402,"text":"Solana and and ethereum and uh everything to know exactly how uh these things should work uh and a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=402s"},{"start_seconds":410,"text":"blockchains are a little bit better than others um in terms of this this system and my whole thesis is that essentially","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=410s"},{"start_seconds":419,"text":"if you're in the pecf bucket right your your token represents a product uh and if you're in the digital commodity","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=419s"},{"start_seconds":426,"text":"bucket right and a lot of people mistake digital commodity for like monetary premium and then like because the word monetary premium is really really loose","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=426s"},{"start_seconds":435,"text":"just means anything oh like store it as a store value use it or spend it or settle it and then it gets really confusing but digital commodity right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=435s"},{"start_seconds":443,"text":"digital gold digital silver like just like a uh that actually is very clear","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=443s"},{"start_seconds":450,"text":"because like it means that there is no coherent way to talk about cash flows right if if you think of real gold even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=450s"},{"start_seconds":459,"text":"if there were industrial use cases of gold that somehow changed its like molecular makeup like the the Alchemy of like gold like someone figured out a way","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=459s"},{"start_seconds":466,"text":"to use gold and then it changed it to like lead right like reverse Alchemy people wouldn't say oh well that's the uh dividend right rate of of like gold","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=466s"},{"start_seconds":474,"text":"right uh even though EIP 1559 for people listening eth gets burned every block from the base fees that doesn't mean it should be you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=474s"},{"start_seconds":483,"text":"thought of as a equity like token right it doesn't mean those those should be thought of as like dividends it's one kind of digital use case of ethereum it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=483s"},{"start_seconds":491,"text":"happens to digitally take it out of circulation but it doesn't actually mean that ethereum should actually be thought of as anything different than uh Bitcoin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=491s"},{"start_seconds":500,"text":"in fact near as well near I think is actually one of the most interesting assets because I I'm actually extremely extremely bullish as you know on your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=500s"},{"start_seconds":508,"text":"guys is unique AI thesis and as digital AI commodity money uh and and like the the thing with like near is it's it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=508s"},{"start_seconds":517,"text":"actually like a very special kind of commodity if it can become this like AI uh digital gold essentially as as well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=517s"},{"start_seconds":525,"text":"as all the utility that it it actually has and the most important thing is to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=525s"},{"start_seconds":531,"text":"not have uh the Overton window right the acceptable course of structural discussion socially be uh dividends and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=531s"},{"start_seconds":540,"text":"cash flow for for Sovereign assets like near like Bitcoin like like ethereum like Solana there's obviously things like uni token from uniswap right like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=540s"},{"start_seconds":549,"text":"this is like it it represents kind of like e equity in the uniswap Dow or the amm and and things like that and everyone's like when fee switch when fee","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=549s"},{"start_seconds":557,"text":"switch right but no one uh even thinks coherently about Bitcoin like that right and that's what's most","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=557s"},{"start_seconds":565,"text":"important yeah so I mean obviously we agree a lot on how this works and uh so but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=565s"},{"start_seconds":574,"text":"maybe just for the audience let's kind of decompose it a little bit right I think one of the big like conflicting thoughts is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=574s"},{"start_seconds":583,"text":"because indeed money is such a wide term right that captures a lot of things um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=583s"},{"start_seconds":590,"text":"people generally default for like to to money to like dollars right Euro kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=590s"},{"start_seconds":598,"text":"some the default current like Fiat currencies and the thing is like those currencies are designed in a very different way right than what we're trying to achieve here because they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=598s"},{"start_seconds":607,"text":"designed to be a unit of exchange they're not designed to uh be kind of indeed this digital commodity of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=607s"},{"start_seconds":615,"text":"ecosystem and kind of the the productive work that's done there and so because of that the supply of usually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=615s"},{"start_seconds":626,"text":"Fiat currencies right is you know fluctuating depending on the needs of the of the of the country and I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=626s"},{"start_seconds":633,"text":"that's to me that's what like one of the things where you know people throw oh like this is digital money Etc like that's been one of the things where like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=633s"},{"start_seconds":642,"text":"actually if you decompose what money means right it can mean unit of exchange unit of account it can have store of value so like there's different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=642s"},{"start_seconds":650,"text":"functions um that we assigned to money and then different assets like commodity like gold digital commodity like Bitcoin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=650s"},{"start_seconds":659,"text":"can play different functions as well in different roles right and and so I think that that that is like a very um to me","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=659s"},{"start_seconds":669,"text":"at least be an important distinction when kind of analyzing like what what this asset like what role this asset needs to play at what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=669s"},{"start_seconds":678,"text":"time and uh so I think like digital commodi is a really good way to lended","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=678s"},{"start_seconds":684,"text":"because you say hey uh yeah nobody thinks of like hey how much gold was burnt right this year like that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=684s"},{"start_seconds":693,"text":"not that's not a thing that uh and there is industrial use cases there is you know jewelry use cases there's all kinds","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=693s"},{"start_seconds":701,"text":"of ways people are using gold as well as just storing it you know because they believe like either believe of it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=701s"},{"start_seconds":709,"text":"future value or you know they use it as an alternative to whatever world events Etc","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=709s"},{"start_seconds":718,"text":"and so kind of app Ling the same principles here is like and this was your example right like yeah you know if even if we burn some of some of the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=718s"},{"start_seconds":727,"text":"asset it doesn't mean that like there's other use cases and I think I think really important part is the defi itself","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=727s"},{"start_seconds":734,"text":"is one of the biggest industrial use cases and the reasons actually for ethereum's Value appreciation kind of in defi summer last","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=734s"},{"start_seconds":744,"text":"year uh last uh you know few years ago because it's effectively was sucking in so much e into this D5 pools and as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=744s"},{"start_seconds":753,"text":"assets were increasing in price you needed to have you know equal amount of e in that pool and so it kind of created this natural","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=753s"},{"start_seconds":760,"text":"demand and that wasn't about burning right it was act you know it was provided liquidity was it was sitting there but it was creating this like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=760s"},{"start_seconds":767,"text":"massive demand for B asset and so uh from like valueing perspective like you know stock flow on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=767s"},{"start_seconds":776,"text":"effectively uh other assets launching was the as the liquidity and I think like that that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=776s"},{"start_seconds":783,"text":"kind of a good model and I think salana right now showing this with mcoins right because there is like 20,000 mcoins launched you need to have you know bunch","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=783s"},{"start_seconds":791,"text":"of soul in the pool that kind of social contract of using S as like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=791s"},{"start_seconds":797,"text":"main uh pair creates this kind of massive ramp up on on the use case for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=797s"},{"start_seconds":804,"text":"Solon right and obviously you know there's all this other use cases like transaction fees and storage and uh you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=804s"},{"start_seconds":813,"text":"know what you you know for St staking itself is also a use case because it kind of syns token as well but all of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=813s"},{"start_seconds":821,"text":"together is creating this kind of multi-industry uh use cases of of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=821s"},{"start_seconds":828,"text":"asset yeah and and that's a really good point and I actually as as you were saying everything there there's three things I wanted to uh highlight and from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=828s"},{"start_seconds":837,"text":"the top the first thing you said was very interesting and that National currencies are indeed totally different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=837s"},{"start_seconds":844,"text":"from uh money in terms of like Bitcoin money right like National currencies are supposed to be pegged to a standard of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=844s"},{"start_seconds":852,"text":"living so like most people don't really think about the dollar like this but the dollar is a stable coin right it's pegged to the CPI plus 2.5% Target of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=852s"},{"start_seconds":861,"text":"inflation so people spend it rather than just hoarded right so like it has a Peg and the peg is a basket of consumer items so it's meant to actually keep","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=861s"},{"start_seconds":869,"text":"your standard of living like the same right you're supposed to be able to buy the same amount of Medical Care shelter","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=869s"},{"start_seconds":876,"text":"food oil you know all of this stuff rent uh that that uh the dollar is pegged to right and so that's actually the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=876s"},{"start_seconds":884,"text":"main big difference is like uh in BTC or like hard commodity like digital Commodities like they're not the same as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=884s"},{"start_seconds":893,"text":"a currency currency is meant to keep your standard of living the same and an investment on on the other hand which everyone says invest in Bitcoin invest","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=893s"},{"start_seconds":901,"text":"in near uh you know invest in like fra and and stuff like that what that means is if it's a good investment it should actually increase your standard of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=901s"},{"start_seconds":909,"text":"living right that's the definition essentially of a investment so you should be able to trade it in for more currency which is an abstraction for standard of living right and actually it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=909s"},{"start_seconds":918,"text":"was our kind of research in this that fra actually issued the first uh CPI Peg currency it's called the fra price index","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=918s"},{"start_seconds":925,"text":"fpi and so we've thought a lot about this because uh our experiments in this area um and like novel stablecoin pegs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=925s"},{"start_seconds":935,"text":"basically led us to the fact that there's basically scarce assets right like like digital Commodities in crypto and then there's everything else there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=935s"},{"start_seconds":944,"text":"that is like PCF flow or everything this third category that people sometimes conflate with Bitcoin which is the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=944s"},{"start_seconds":952,"text":"stable currencies that are either pegged to a national unit which is just trying to do the same thing whether they fail or not right it's is irrelevant some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=952s"},{"start_seconds":960,"text":"countries definitely fail by not being able to Peg to a standard of living but um those are basically the so I I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=960s"},{"start_seconds":967,"text":"thought that those those were really good points that you made uh originally about that and so that's why I think usually I try not to say uh monetary","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=967s"},{"start_seconds":975,"text":"premium and stuff like that because people conflate like currency and and money in store of value and they're not the same things neither technically nor","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=975s"},{"start_seconds":984,"text":"academically and and like uh e economics and things like that right and so your your second point was AB absolutely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=984s"},{"start_seconds":991,"text":"fantastic too about uh very astute about the use case of these things like in eth","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=991s"},{"start_seconds":998,"text":"Defi and actually like you said early uh like last year and and early this year","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=998s"},{"start_seconds":1005,"text":"like basically 2023 2024 the reaking phras absolutely exploded right the concept of reaking was was created by","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1005s"},{"start_seconds":1013,"text":"igen lay and like uh billions and billions of of uh eth was restak and then new reaking protocols came everyone","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1013s"},{"start_seconds":1022,"text":"wanted to get additional points air drops and incentives on eth and then lo and behold eth became $44,000 right it became it almost actually got to its","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1022s"},{"start_seconds":1029,"text":"all-time high and then as as like the the meme coin craze on Solana took off right uh and people sort of forgot about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1029s"},{"start_seconds":1038,"text":"reaking then eth completely kind of retraced all of its gains back to like 2200 or whatever and then Solana","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1038s"},{"start_seconds":1046,"text":"exploded and everyone started saying oh my God is going to you know flip Bitcoin uh eth and then maybe Bitcoin or something like that and you actually had","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1046s"},{"start_seconds":1054,"text":"a good point because I actually went and looked at this I actually went and saw how much soul is being paired by uh every single meme coin that's launched","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1054s"},{"start_seconds":1063,"text":"on pump. fun and literally right now on radium alone uh at least a couple percent like one to two and a half","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1063s"},{"start_seconds":1071,"text":"percent of all Soul literally like all soul in existence is paired against the Su total of all of these like uh meme","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1071s"},{"start_seconds":1080,"text":"coins right and and like that alone that might not sound like a lot but then in order for people to trade that much they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1080s"},{"start_seconds":1087,"text":"also that creates another three to four five% demand of people buying soul to participate in in all of these this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1087s"},{"start_seconds":1095,"text":"liquidity and that alone like the I can layer and reaking uh thing was the crazy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1095s"},{"start_seconds":1102,"text":"crazy utility and use case of the digital commodity of Solana right and of soul and eth was for reaking and they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1102s"},{"start_seconds":1110,"text":"kind of like digital industrial use cases as you said really really well that it's really important to actually see that these things do coincide with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1110s"},{"start_seconds":1119,"text":"like use cases they they literally track causally to them it's it's not it has way less to do with cash flow right and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1119s"},{"start_seconds":1127,"text":"and like some people um you know show charts oh my god look the the like Solana fees are like going up at at the same time obviously as like everyone's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1127s"},{"start_seconds":1135,"text":"trading mem coins but the p& like soul is like absolutely like ridiculous if it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1135s"},{"start_seconds":1143,"text":"actually was valued at p& right and discounted cash flow and it's much clearer that it's valued as a digital","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1143s"},{"start_seconds":1151,"text":"commodity that has a very high demand flow of industrial use cases right and um I think the most interesting question","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1151s"},{"start_seconds":1159,"text":"really to uh as a result is how do we actually create assets that are like digital Commodities and don't get like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1159s"},{"start_seconds":1167,"text":"mistaken for uh pecf cash flow which is kind of what I was trying to uh write in in my writings and and tweet and stuff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1167s"},{"start_seconds":1175,"text":"because if eth can sort of mistakenly be over the number of years be more and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1175s"},{"start_seconds":1183,"text":"more talked about as a DCF coin right because everyone's talking about EIP 1559 and and and stuff and less like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1183s"},{"start_seconds":1191,"text":"Bitcoin uh can you turn a token the other direction can you turn a token that everyone talks about PE DCF cash","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1191s"},{"start_seconds":1199,"text":"flow and can you actually change its mechanics so that everyone thinks of it more like Bitcoin right because you could apparently go the other way right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1199s"},{"start_seconds":1206,"text":"like that that's what people have accidentally seemed to be doing with ethereum where the first 10 years or eight years it was like silver to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1206s"},{"start_seconds":1213,"text":"Bitcoins gold people even said that right you you are uh people probably remember everyone saying digital oil Digital Silver and now it's all cash","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1213s"},{"start_seconds":1223,"text":"flow how much is burned should we increase the the the blobs increase like dividends to to eth holders and like let's model the p& DCF of like the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1223s"},{"start_seconds":1232,"text":"EIP 1559 Burns should we optimize that or this or and so it's becoming more like should we optimize the company","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1232s"},{"start_seconds":1239,"text":"right cash flows of the the organization or something like that rather than the way to think about it like you know things like Bitcoin and um you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1239s"},{"start_seconds":1248,"text":"other assets that have actually done this well there's also one last thing is there's also this prevailing view that only Bitcoin can do this and like this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1248s"},{"start_seconds":1257,"text":"Bitcoin has this like annoyed uh you know thing of like you're saying you're going to be a better Bitcoin no one's going to buy it this is BS show us how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1257s"},{"start_seconds":1266,"text":"much fees or Revenue you're making or something I don't buy that at all I I don't think these things are binary like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1266s"},{"start_seconds":1272,"text":"what you can be a digital commodity that's not trying to be digital gold there's many digital Commodities in real","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1272s"},{"start_seconds":1280,"text":"life as well right like I was saying there's silver oil like magnesium platium you know all of this stuff right and obviously those are metaphors but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1280s"},{"start_seconds":1288,"text":"the point is it's not binary right and and so like if you actually have a proper way of Designing a digital asset","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1288s"},{"start_seconds":1298,"text":"and you create the right Overton window boundaries of where you should actually have acceptable discourse right if the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1298s"},{"start_seconds":1306,"text":"if the mechanism doesn't even allow certain types of coherent discussion of how to Dividend fees or something like that then that's actually how you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1306s"},{"start_seconds":1315,"text":"turn a previous kind of governance token into a sovereign asset so yeah I mean I think so there's two","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1315s"},{"start_seconds":1324,"text":"two parts here I think one the is this Bitcoin and everything else or there's like indeed different types","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1324s"},{"start_seconds":1332,"text":"of digital commodity assets I think where Bitcoin has obviously a huge leg up is is kind of in the meme value right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1332s"},{"start_seconds":1340,"text":"in attention value and kind of the way I usually look at any asset right is is a combination of mean value utility value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1340s"},{"start_seconds":1350,"text":"so like use case mess value and uh which is like are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1350s"},{"start_seconds":1357,"text":"people willing to accept this effectively as collateral as pay like as some some form of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1357s"},{"start_seconds":1365,"text":"money and then the governance value which is like which is is by holding this asset am I able to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1365s"},{"start_seconds":1372,"text":"you know benefit in the future right so uh from some decision- making and like to me it's always like this combination","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1372s"},{"start_seconds":1380,"text":"right and different assets have different weights on this thing and indeed you can talk about it differently depending how you look at it but you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1380s"},{"start_seconds":1389,"text":"know Nvidia for example is you know purely utility right nobody's using like Nvidia for money there is governance value but it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1389s"},{"start_seconds":1397,"text":"also like you know Jensen's running that like a that ship but the multiple to their revenue is clearly showing this is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1397s"},{"start_seconds":1404,"text":"a you know because the attention and mean value is so high they have way higher multiple on their revenue and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1404s"},{"start_seconds":1411,"text":"that's kind of what kind of like it's important to understand that the attention translates into massive","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1411s"},{"start_seconds":1418,"text":"multiples and also you know like the more liquid asset itself is being the easier it is for people to build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1418s"},{"start_seconds":1426,"text":"positions and then you have a better like stock flow Etc so I think the the examples here that's good because I was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1426s"},{"start_seconds":1433,"text":"actually just reading the xrp thread right where xrp is effect actually used as uh as what should be used to stable","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1433s"},{"start_seconds":1442,"text":"coin uh because like people like what bridge was doing right you come in from you know one country you exchange to xrp you move to another bank and that bank","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1442s"},{"start_seconds":1451,"text":"exchanges back to the local currency and you know because this works so fast they're okay with you know some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1451s"},{"start_seconds":1459,"text":"volatility on xrp but what this creates is massive volume right because like if nothing else is just creates a ton of volume around the world and now you have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1459s"},{"start_seconds":1467,"text":"ton of Market Mak because you have ton of kind of participants in the network and that uh creates obviously like opportunity for people to come in and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1467s"},{"start_seconds":1476,"text":"and really uh you know build positions and kind of um uh move the market as well when when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1476s"},{"start_seconds":1484,"text":"uh when there's not enough not enough Supply and so to me th those are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1484s"},{"start_seconds":1491,"text":"interesting kind of aspects of this as well and it's true I think commodity Market is very similar right depending on how liquid the market is how good the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1491s"},{"start_seconds":1500,"text":"Futures actually Market is like people use it like people use the Futures Market sometimes as as a way to build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1500s"},{"start_seconds":1507,"text":"like really interesting uh instruments even if they don't really care about the underlying right like you know the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1507s"},{"start_seconds":1514,"text":"Futures on whatever corn a really good like weather prediction or something like this so yeah so I think there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1514s"},{"start_seconds":1522,"text":"there's a lot of interesting things where um the DCF model just kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1522s"},{"start_seconds":1529,"text":"you know is can be a part of the use case from perspective of uh again the either the governance component or the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1529s"},{"start_seconds":1538,"text":"one of the use cases of utility but it kind of yeah really misses on for example I mean this this is actually the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1538s"},{"start_seconds":1546,"text":"the purest example is you know let's imagine Sam we decide to launch a new layer one right and you know we launch","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1546s"},{"start_seconds":1554,"text":"it we launch it with a new token uh we say hey everybody should stay you know to validate the network um that right away creates some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1554s"},{"start_seconds":1563,"text":"Demand on the token that right away creates like even though the network doesn't do anything yet we just created a factory already a use case for this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1563s"},{"start_seconds":1571,"text":"asset um and uh that itself creates value right and so I think that those are and depending on how much attention","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1571s"},{"start_seconds":1579,"text":"effective we can create around this thing how much people excited about it that will kind of put it at different positions on on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1579s"},{"start_seconds":1588,"text":"that multiple of over over the use case of of of the staking so I think that those are interesting ways to kind of think about like to me those components","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1588s"},{"start_seconds":1597,"text":"how like how they work together sometimes and how for different assets they kind of in different buckets um so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1597s"},{"start_seconds":1604,"text":"that's why like I don't think DCF in itself is bad it's just like you cannot use that to evaluate the market cap because there's all this other component","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1604s"},{"start_seconds":1613,"text":"that will come together to actually construct it yeah I I think that's really well said I I don't think DCF is is bad either however there's one thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1613s"},{"start_seconds":1623,"text":"uh that like if you actually use the DCF model right the pricing power is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1623s"},{"start_seconds":1630,"text":"bidirectional right it doesn't just add actual like market cap to a token so otherwise everyone will try to add everything right like into like the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1630s"},{"start_seconds":1638,"text":"model of how to Value something the the danger is if everyone is using like or most people are using pecf flow right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1638s"},{"start_seconds":1646,"text":"then they're going to say hey this is overvalued why the heck is like you know ethereum with $3 billion of burns uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1646s"},{"start_seconds":1654,"text":"like worth you know $400 billion while apple with $400 billion dollar of annual","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1654s"},{"start_seconds":1661,"text":"like revenue is only worth like 9x more than more than uh ethereum with over like 400 uh X or something of uh or 100x","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1661s"},{"start_seconds":1670,"text":"of of like Revenue right that that's like a order two orders of magnitude off and so people will like short it right and and so it it's a it's a lot of um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1670s"},{"start_seconds":1680,"text":"things about creating this Overton window of like what is the acceptable uh structural discourse and what makes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1680s"},{"start_seconds":1687,"text":"sense and he actually said something great about Nvidia or like stocks in general is I actually believe like if it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1687s"},{"start_seconds":1693,"text":"wasn't for the uh Securities laws which are good I'm not saying anything bad about them but the the tra traditional","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1693s"},{"start_seconds":1700,"text":"Financial custodial uh laws and and securities laws uh it's actually totally possible and likely that um equ ities","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1700s"},{"start_seconds":1708,"text":"would be actually at least even thought about of maybe being used like within the App Store maybe you could buy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1708s"},{"start_seconds":1715,"text":"literally like app Apple uh iPhone apps with Apple stock and and like this is like one thing that people thought would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1715s"},{"start_seconds":1723,"text":"happen with uh like the original Ico tokens and stuff but the reason that never took off was the tokens were like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1723s"},{"start_seconds":1730,"text":"not liquid and big enough but you see this happening with Ethan Bitcoin and really big stuff like like NE and and Solana clearly like they do buy stuff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1730s"},{"start_seconds":1739,"text":"with soul eth BTC a little bit now and if if the custodial laws were not so that like literally you can't hold the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1739s"},{"start_seconds":1747,"text":"stock in a non-custodial manner you hold it through a series of chains of custodians they don't transfer it for two days later so the only thing you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1747s"},{"start_seconds":1755,"text":"do is is invest in them or like sell them right so the only thing you can do is value them as PCF in fact the SEC","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1755s"},{"start_seconds":1763,"text":"goes out of their way in like whenever the meme stock frenzy or something happens right they like put out a you know like a disclaimer or they like go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1763s"},{"start_seconds":1771,"text":"to the company and say like you know put out a press release say like this is you don't understand why the pric is like this to discourage any type of pricing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1771s"},{"start_seconds":1780,"text":"function uh other than PCF because they basically the their goal is to make markets orderly which means to actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1780s"},{"start_seconds":1787,"text":"make sure that equities are like valued as pecf if anyone tries to actually and structurally they've created a like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1787s"},{"start_seconds":1796,"text":"financial system that disc scourage is not to the letter of the law right like it's not illegal to to exchange Apple stock for like something like a car or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1796s"},{"start_seconds":1805,"text":"like a computer or something but but it's structurally impossible because it's it's have multiple custodians","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1805s"},{"start_seconds":1811,"text":"brokerage the uh the um us like uh Trust Company the dtcc or whatever it's called that holds all the actual physical stock","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1811s"},{"start_seconds":1819,"text":"certificates and then the digital representations of them right and so it's literally impossible to use equities as like uh anything other than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1819s"},{"start_seconds":1827,"text":"PCF right and in traditional Finance crypto is the first time you could actually have these two things that have both PCF valuation","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1827s"},{"start_seconds":1836,"text":"and like monetary commodity industrial use cases be used in a digital way uh and that's why it's confusing for a lot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1836s"},{"start_seconds":1844,"text":"of people because they they're not used like they they're like trained mentally right for for Generations right uh to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1844s"},{"start_seconds":1852,"text":"think about okay is this PCF like is it a stock is this not PCS is a commodity","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1852s"},{"start_seconds":1859,"text":"or like some kind of currency money or something like that and in fact I think that um The mcoin Craze actually proves","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1859s"},{"start_seconds":1868,"text":"my my theory kind of correct because I was talking to marad who's you know big memec coin thesis guy um and uh he","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1868s"},{"start_seconds":1876,"text":"actually I think thinks about things the same way because meme coins are like the embodiment of Bitcoin it's like Fair launch there's a fixed Supply there's no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1876s"},{"start_seconds":1884,"text":"way to actually increase it there is no governance of anything because it's it's literally by definition the token is the product there's no there is no product","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1884s"},{"start_seconds":1892,"text":"that the token is the the meme is the product right and and so the fact that they can have cumulatively billions maybe now tens of billions at least","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1892s"},{"start_seconds":1900,"text":"because because you know things like uh whff dog with hat and and all these things probably in the tens uh of billions now um in total the fact that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1900s"},{"start_seconds":1909,"text":"they can have that market cap proves that it's not just Bitcoin it's not just Bitcoin and Dogecoin is the only other fluke right and uh that actually I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1909s"},{"start_seconds":1917,"text":"proves the thesis correct is you can create digital Commodities you have to do it right and so I think my my personal view is there there's two","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1917s"},{"start_seconds":1926,"text":"important things one is you have to not necessarily have no emissions or like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1926s"},{"start_seconds":1933,"text":"you know like some kind of like stop but you have to have a clear fixed emission equation whatever that is like even even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1933s"},{"start_seconds":1942,"text":"Bitcoin right now everyone knows it's 21 million but it's not 21 million until 20 uh like like 100 years from now 2142 is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1942s"},{"start_seconds":1949,"text":"that the exact year that's that's fine that's good that's how it works right you have to have a fixed emission","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1949s"},{"start_seconds":1956,"text":"schedule and you have to change the uh Overton window where it doesn't structurally make sense to actually talk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1956s"},{"start_seconds":1965,"text":"about uh the burns or anything like that as anything other than industrial use cases on chain and that that's my my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1965s"},{"start_seconds":1973,"text":"view on it at least yeah that makes sense um and again I I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1973s"},{"start_seconds":1981,"text":"think actually yeah the examples that like we have a bunch of like pretty high valued meme coins which to me is example","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1981s"},{"start_seconds":1988,"text":"of that like they actually don't even have industrial use case like nobody's somewhere like stuck in bnk because they're going to be like able to you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1988s"},{"start_seconds":1995,"text":"know do cross cross country tra whatever International trades through bnk right like which you know what's kind of a use","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=1995s"},{"start_seconds":2002,"text":"case for Bitcoin for a while is like hey very liquid asset we're able to do international trade uh so it's really purely just the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2002s"},{"start_seconds":2010,"text":"attention and kind of the community of people who are like hey this is effectively the commodity we like this is like this is our gold right we wear","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2010s"},{"start_seconds":2019,"text":"we wear this on you know on our it's our jewelry it's their jewelry yeah exactly I mean that to me","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2019s"},{"start_seconds":2026,"text":"actually Dodge and bonk are examples of jewelry like these like that's a use case if fact people have is like hey I'm part of this community this is how you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2026s"},{"start_seconds":2035,"text":"know I associate and uh you know and you can have multiple like it's not this the other thing is not exclusive right you cannot like oh I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2035s"},{"start_seconds":2044,"text":"only wear gold I never wear silver right no it's like you can have multiple different you know jewelry kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2044s"},{"start_seconds":2050,"text":"uh which made of different different uh uh thing but yeah like this is jewelry of the of the Modern","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2050s"},{"start_seconds":2057,"text":"Age yeah I mean that's actually that that could be a meme itself right like uh do doge is digital jewelry doge is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2057s"},{"start_seconds":2065,"text":"the swag right do dog with hat and that's like actually a good way to put it especially because usually jewelry is made from digital Commodities right like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2065s"},{"start_seconds":2073,"text":"like gold and and all these things in fact you need soul to generate digital jewelry on pump. fun because you need to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2073s"},{"start_seconds":2081,"text":"actually pair it with uh Soul as as the uh liquidity which makes a lot of sense right it's actually see the parallel of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2081s"},{"start_seconds":2089,"text":"like you need to use this commodity to generate digital jewelry uh that has use case and I think that's a really the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2089s"},{"start_seconds":2096,"text":"really cool way to put it and and the idea is like what what I think is important is as long as there is a fixed","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2096s"},{"start_seconds":2104,"text":"immutable emission uh equation and an easy way to communicate uh the actual like total","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2104s"},{"start_seconds":2113,"text":"Supply whether that is right now or not right like as long as you can communicate it so that the Overton window is is very clear like hey this is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2113s"},{"start_seconds":2122,"text":"just I can describe this asset in one sentence right 21 million uh Bitcoin or like even if it's just like one million","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2122s"},{"start_seconds":2129,"text":"tokens get uh printed every year forever like even though like that that actually it's like decreasing emissions but it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2129s"},{"start_seconds":2137,"text":"forever actually that's what Dogecoin is I believe it's like 10 billion Doge a year or something like that and uh that's that's fine and then you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2137s"},{"start_seconds":2145,"text":"actually even one thing we're thinking of with with uh um fxs the Frack share token that we're about to announce the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2145s"},{"start_seconds":2151,"text":"the relaunch of the this new ticker that's just fra and much cleaner and you can validate things on on fraxel and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2151s"},{"start_seconds":2159,"text":"the AI functionality that we've been talking about a little bit between each other is like if you can actually fix the emission uh but you actually make it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2159s"},{"start_seconds":2169,"text":"so that the the actual tail emissions go to some kind of contract right like like a tail emission system contract on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2169s"},{"start_seconds":2178,"text":"chain and then you actually are able to allocate those tail emissions in a more versatile way and that could be where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2178s"},{"start_seconds":2187,"text":"the government power is but there can never be any actual tail emission change to the Token unless there's like a hard","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2187s"},{"start_seconds":2195,"text":"Fork of the network which is same thing with Bitcoin right and in theory in theory like Bitcoin can change 21 million if there was a hard Fork but it's so socially contentious it'll never","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2195s"},{"start_seconds":2204,"text":"work right so what you do is you aify the most important property you need to aify which is like this tail emission","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2204s"},{"start_seconds":2211,"text":"can never be changed otherwise the entire social contract is like broken and you can like point to the the tail","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2211s"},{"start_seconds":2218,"text":"emission like equation the one that actually computes to the full Max Supply and then from that you can actually program modules like does it go to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2218s"},{"start_seconds":2227,"text":"validator security does it go to like AI inference validators does it go to like uh defi growth like economic growth or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2227s"},{"start_seconds":2234,"text":"something like that but nothing can ever change this tail emissions and then if you do want to do burns right like like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2234s"},{"start_seconds":2242,"text":"a um like things like EIP 1559 you actually make it clear that these burns are actually not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2242s"},{"start_seconds":2251,"text":"dividends right they're basically industrial use cases of the infrastructure right now people finally understand EIP 1559 is kind of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2251s"},{"start_seconds":2259,"text":"burning digital oil but the issue is it has two years plus of ethereum uh Narrative of like this a dividend that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2259s"},{"start_seconds":2267,"text":"has to be undone right but if if you have a new community that's better understanding of this you can have things like top level like domains that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2267s"},{"start_seconds":2277,"text":"you to buy that uh like like do near you know dot Frack stuff like that that permanently burn stuff right those are just like infrastructural things base","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2277s"},{"start_seconds":2285,"text":"fees that are just infrastructural things for how the chain uh actually needs to run right other things that you know are are devised over a number of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2285s"},{"start_seconds":2292,"text":"years and those get burned and and those go strictly into this like immutable burn like system equation where whenever","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2292s"},{"start_seconds":2301,"text":"these assets go here they just get burned forever and you can't change that either unless you actually go through a hard fork and um that's actually like I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2301s"},{"start_seconds":2310,"text":"think the most important way the Simplicity of just being able to socially enshrine these things and then just let people coordinate and aify the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2310s"},{"start_seconds":2320,"text":"most important social like like factors of an asset while being able to be versatile with governance of the of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2320s"},{"start_seconds":2327,"text":"like tail emissions to a certain degree that is how you maximize uh the actual value of of the digital","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2327s"},{"start_seconds":2335,"text":"commodity yeah so this is actually exactly what we've been looking at with House of stake is to effec the build that governance of T So near from the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2335s"},{"start_seconds":2345,"text":"start had part of T Mission going to affect to the treasury account that I mean up to now has not been used at all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2345s"},{"start_seconds":2354,"text":"and so but has this kind of perpetuity emission in in it and so uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2354s"},{"start_seconds":2362,"text":"kind of weworking with gauntlet on the design of this house of stake uh system with which is indeed St like token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2362s"},{"start_seconds":2369,"text":"holders stakeholders St staking uh representatives are able to decide on where to allocate the submissions which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2369s"},{"start_seconds":2377,"text":"indeed can be defi growth or you know maybe sponsoring more validators or doing these things and so um I agree","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2377s"},{"start_seconds":2385,"text":"that that that is like a it's a way better programmatic approach versus you know at Genesis trying to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2385s"},{"start_seconds":2393,"text":"predefine uh and you know who who who will receive what and then hoping that like you know like one of the challenges","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2393s"},{"start_seconds":2400,"text":"that we were trying to fix is that like there was no continuous budget for continuous development of the protocol","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2400s"},{"start_seconds":2408,"text":"you know and and obviously growth and other things and so like how do you like you do need some form of that and again","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2408s"},{"start_seconds":2415,"text":"there's nothing wrong with a new digital asset created right like it's the same with commodi is being mined all the time","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2415s"},{"start_seconds":2423,"text":"like we don't expect you know gold to like yes is some amount per year and like maybe it fluctuates but uh we don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2423s"},{"start_seconds":2431,"text":"expect that to run out but I think the there's need for kind of supporting the ecosystem and technology","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2431s"},{"start_seconds":2439,"text":"and everything which can be used through this mechanism but maybe to turn around the question kind of you're you're postulating a very clear statement which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2439s"},{"start_seconds":2448,"text":"is like hey the effectively the tail inflation kind of formula should be fixed and so I'm actually curious","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2448s"},{"start_seconds":2456,"text":"because this is something something we've been discussing as well across the ecosystem because we haven't really designed that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2456s"},{"start_seconds":2464,"text":"very you know um like initially when we launch near right now it's a good time to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2464s"},{"start_seconds":2473,"text":"hey this is how we want it to be for next you know 100,000 years but obviously even the fact that you want to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2473s"},{"start_seconds":2480,"text":"change it now is kind of introducing this idea that this is changeable so I'm curious kind of how you think about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2480s"},{"start_seconds":2488,"text":"that like how should people approach those kind of things yeah so I think like um that that's a very very well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2488s"},{"start_seconds":2495,"text":"said in terms of actually I think the reason near is such a great asset is like you you guys currently work exactly the right way of this emissions goes to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2495s"},{"start_seconds":2504,"text":"you know one place and then uh this separation of uh concerns right like the most important thing to like IM IM","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2504s"},{"start_seconds":2513,"text":"create as immutable is the equation right it's doesn't matter as much people used to confusingly think oh both the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2513s"},{"start_seconds":2522,"text":"location and the emission needs to be like fixed permanently and then you create this situation where you there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2522s"},{"start_seconds":2530,"text":"no way no one can predict the future in terms of all the different places that you you want to actually spend this digital commodity right like spend like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2530s"},{"start_seconds":2538,"text":"you said the gold that's mined out right but if you're going to program a a a sovereign asset that has a very very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2538s"},{"start_seconds":2545,"text":"solid immutable social contract what you have to do is you have to actually fix the emission but you don't need to fix","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2545s"},{"start_seconds":2553,"text":"the exact place where it's going to go a 100 years like over the next like 10 20 30 100 years right and that's what's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2553s"},{"start_seconds":2561,"text":"really important is like I think that that's basically what uh Bitcoin got right I think that's what Dogecoin got right because the equation is very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2561s"},{"start_seconds":2570,"text":"simple like right and and uh if I ask you right now how much what what's the uh Supply of ethereum going to be in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2570s"},{"start_seconds":2578,"text":"2030 I I couldn't tell you I know it's like right now it's 120 million something but I don't know in 2030 if it's going to be like and and forget the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2578s"},{"start_seconds":2586,"text":"burns pretend there's no burn I we could just add the burns later but but just how much is The Tail emission I actually don't know because it's it's actually very difficult it's like called minimum","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2586s"},{"start_seconds":2594,"text":"viable issuance and I actually don't know what it is off the top of my head and I feel like I'm a pretty technical person myself like in terms of like uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2594s"},{"start_seconds":2604,"text":"trying to keep up with everything but um that's what's important is a a simple emission equation that can be aifi","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2604s"},{"start_seconds":2612,"text":"socially right and then uh if there's going to be Burns in infrastructure uh things like base fees and like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2612s"},{"start_seconds":2619,"text":"infrastructural industrial use cases they get immutably put into this system burn contract and you can actually we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2619s"},{"start_seconds":2629,"text":"we're experimenting this very interesting way of like if emissions slow down right like if every year they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2629s"},{"start_seconds":2636,"text":"uh go down by 10% or they have or something like that the burns from like the token from the burn engine right the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2636s"},{"start_seconds":2643,"text":"contract they can programmatically uh because because the burn engine is fixed too right they can go the other direction so they go into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2643s"},{"start_seconds":2652,"text":"the emissions system contract so for example as the actual raw emissions like slowly go down the the tokens going into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2652s"},{"start_seconds":2661,"text":"the burn contract that get burned less of those get fully burned and then some of them get sent to the uh emission","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2661s"},{"start_seconds":2669,"text":"contract as the actual uh real emissions go down so that you always have this security budget right one of the main","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2669s"},{"start_seconds":2676,"text":"biggest issues with like uh Bitcoin that people currently bring up it's too early to know but is the security budget right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2676s"},{"start_seconds":2684,"text":"if you have every uh four years and if Bitcoin is not doubling in price at least every four years so so far is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2684s"},{"start_seconds":2691,"text":"looking way more than doubling every four years at least but uh the idea is like if the you know purchasing power","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2691s"},{"start_seconds":2698,"text":"parody of BTC doesn't double every four years then Bitcoin loses security as a tradeoff right and uh that seems kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2698s"},{"start_seconds":2707,"text":"bad right like that that's not part of the the design and so the reason like ethereum has like this fixed uh minimum","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2707s"},{"start_seconds":2715,"text":"viable issuance forever that makes it a little bit difficult to understand how much the actual Supply currently is or will be is that they don't want that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2715s"},{"start_seconds":2724,"text":"security budget issue to be part of the over window of like legitimate discussion well one way you can do that is you could still have a fixed Supply","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2724s"},{"start_seconds":2732,"text":"that kind of tapers off right to to like a clear number at a clear year but you have this Burn System that tapers up so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2732s"},{"start_seconds":2741,"text":"like at that like year uh as as the burns actually go more of them get sent","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2741s"},{"start_seconds":2748,"text":"to the emission contract and then the actual emissions that hit the max Supply and the emissions go to zero there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2748s"},{"start_seconds":2755,"text":"still security budget funding so there's this concept of like this smooth like regression in both sides where like if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2755s"},{"start_seconds":2763,"text":"you can increase the industrial use case of the digital commodity over the lifetime of emissions that it's like mined or like emitted or things like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2763s"},{"start_seconds":2771,"text":"that then you create a sustainable economy by combining the two equations like that's one of the kind of modeling and research that we're doing that uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2771s"},{"start_seconds":2779,"text":"when we announced the fxs uh revamp right um actually very close like in the next two weeks uh we show what we've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2779s"},{"start_seconds":2787,"text":"come up with I mean I think because like Bitcoin also has I mean effectively the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2787s"},{"start_seconds":2795,"text":"transaction fees that are going to minor so I mean there's some other like more technical problems around like selfish","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2795s"},{"start_seconds":2803,"text":"Mining and re rewards Etc that comes when you don't have block rewards but I mean kind of what you're describing is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2803s"},{"start_seconds":2810,"text":"not that different from from kind of you know idea that Bitcoin inflation tapers off and you know presumably just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2810s"},{"start_seconds":2818,"text":"transaction fees will be the ones covering the the uh security budget uh I mean we've taken a little bit different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2818s"},{"start_seconds":2826,"text":"approach yeah where where and there's an interesting kind of also perspective like burning fees but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2826s"},{"start_seconds":2836,"text":"then effectively remitting back what was burned uh and there's like an interesting thing about like burning","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2836s"},{"start_seconds":2843,"text":"fees you kind of disconnect the source of funds um from like a kind of a tracing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2843s"},{"start_seconds":2850,"text":"perspective and like newly minted even though it's effective the same math right newly minted are coming in in a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2850s"},{"start_seconds":2859,"text":"very in like you know from clean address from system address but I think I mean there is a there is something about like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2859s"},{"start_seconds":2869,"text":"I agree that something about like a Simplicity of the function kind of gives such a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2869s"},{"start_seconds":2876,"text":"powerful story to tell versus and where where if you position it as digital","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2876s"},{"start_seconds":2883,"text":"commodity indeed like it's it's just an easier way to think about like you want you want an easy way to think about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2883s"},{"start_seconds":2891,"text":"Supply and then kind of how it's going to be used and so in that case actually yeah like you don't even need to burn anything now you can just like stash it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2891s"},{"start_seconds":2899,"text":"into the into some pool because like it just lock it locks there like effectively the same thing like that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2899s"},{"start_seconds":2907,"text":"that I mean there was a joke uh on Twitter before where you know uh the you know you can give homeless","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2907s"},{"start_seconds":2916,"text":"person $100 so you can burn a $100 and you know homeless person got more value from that H as so as everybody else right so but like in the same kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2916s"},{"start_seconds":2925,"text":"spirit yeah like B burning is effectively doesn't really change the economics and I think that's that's been","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2925s"},{"start_seconds":2932,"text":"clear for ethereum where even though it was you know negative deflation the price was still going down which like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2932s"},{"start_seconds":2941,"text":"economically if it's a deflationary asset you w you wouldn't sell it right just like economically that should be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2941s"},{"start_seconds":2948,"text":"the the approach right if if you are thinking of this as just purely deflationary asset which which it wases not uh actually I'll actually take a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2948s"},{"start_seconds":2957,"text":"even more Hardline stance on it which like not only does it not increase the value it actually decreases the value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2957s"},{"start_seconds":2963,"text":"I'll even go further because remember in ter terms of what my main concern is is like if you can talk about dividends","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2963s"},{"start_seconds":2971,"text":"from an asset you actually get everyone to start modeling it as like uh a DCF cash flow asset and like for example","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2971s"},{"start_seconds":2980,"text":"when you look at the ETF traditional Financial people right and they're trying to sell their BTC and eth ETFs right they don't talk about cash flow","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2980s"},{"start_seconds":2988,"text":"for the BTC ETF because Bitcoin makes no sense but then they all educate all of the older generation of people on DC oh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2988s"},{"start_seconds":2997,"text":"ethereum is like a digital business like a global computer and it burns like like things here's how much revenue it's made","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=2997s"},{"start_seconds":3004,"text":"and then like people will say oh this thing is overvalued like why is this worth $400 billion do if it's only made four billion the the prior week I'm not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3004s"},{"start_seconds":3012,"text":"going to buy it but oh Bitcoin might get bought by like the fed and like the the new Trump Administration uh let me go buy that because that's the story right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3012s"},{"start_seconds":3020,"text":"and and you said it really well yourself which is like the easy to communicate like social you know equation of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3020s"},{"start_seconds":3028,"text":"the fixed Supply or the fixed emissions is a way for people to coordinate on a aifi social contract right you can't you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3028s"},{"start_seconds":3036,"text":"can't aify a social contract that people can't clearly describe right because like that that's the main thing is like you need everyone to coordinate on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3036s"},{"start_seconds":3044,"text":"something that they all understand and the even the slight diff like difficult thing to understand every some people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3044s"},{"start_seconds":3052,"text":"get you know uh mentally priced out essentially of coordinating in in this direction so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3052s"},{"start_seconds":3062,"text":"yeah yeah yeah that's a good point well I mean there's a lot of topics here uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3062s"},{"start_seconds":3069,"text":"we we covered some of them um as we're approaching end of the hour anything that like I mean you guys obviously shipping a lot of stuff and announcing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3069s"},{"start_seconds":3077,"text":"things so anything you want to kind of close up um that frax is doing that people should know yeah I mean well we're extremely excited about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3077s"},{"start_seconds":3085,"text":"collaborating with near Ai and and everything that we've talked about and also getting uh fra assets um even more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3085s"},{"start_seconds":3093,"text":"used in in near Defi and we're going to actually announce and in this this road map that I was referring to both the fxs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3093s"},{"start_seconds":3100,"text":"revamp of it being a sovereign commodity but tons of other things where we're going to issue uh fra USD uh natively","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3100s"},{"start_seconds":3108,"text":"mint redeemable on near obviously and and other kind of yield bearing places that people can enjoy this asset on near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3108s"},{"start_seconds":3115,"text":"and then more long term the most important thing uh I think that I'm extremely excited that that we've talked about is how to team up in Sovereign AI","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3115s"},{"start_seconds":3124,"text":"actual onchain stateful uh AI agents that are tokenized and and uh co- ownable because this actually goes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3124s"},{"start_seconds":3131,"text":"really really well into what we were just talking about with pecf versus Commodities is like as AI gets better","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3131s"},{"start_seconds":3138,"text":"and better uh their AI tokens essentially the the real AI tokens not mem coins but real AI tokens that let","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3138s"},{"start_seconds":3146,"text":"you co-own a growing and and useful and trained stateful Sovereign uh AI agent","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3146s"},{"start_seconds":3153,"text":"are going to be the most valuable pecf you know the count discounted cash flow tokens because they're the ones doing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3153s"},{"start_seconds":3160,"text":"all of the work right like they're the ones that are going to be doing all of the trading and things like that and the the other non AI tokens are going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3160s"},{"start_seconds":3170,"text":"digital Commodities that do really well right because those are the only things that in the end actually have in a post","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3170s"},{"start_seconds":3176,"text":"kind of AI world have economic value because of their scarcity and their social coordination and their use case","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3176s"},{"start_seconds":3183,"text":"their industrial use cases right because PCF essentially is going to be abstracted to AI right because AI is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3183s"},{"start_seconds":3191,"text":"going to be doing the work for like pretty much everything and I think the cash flow tokens will eventually just represent a certain AI agent that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3191s"},{"start_seconds":3200,"text":"actually my long-term view on this is like we've talked about where I think the the best like value to to Value AI","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3200s"},{"start_seconds":3208,"text":"agents will be eventually the the sovereignty of the agent like how Sovereign is it actually what the token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3208s"},{"start_seconds":3215,"text":"represents and then DCF of the token how much the actual AI agent can earn over the the plethora of things that it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3215s"},{"start_seconds":3222,"text":"actually doing I don't think you know earning a few bips um traditionally on like fees or something like that from a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3222s"},{"start_seconds":3229,"text":"smart contract is going to uh be the winning valuation metric for for tokens it's going to be Ai and it's going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3229s"},{"start_seconds":3237,"text":"uh Sovereign digital assets and that's what we're actually super excited to uh deeply collaborate on like in a in a real manner with with near AI so I'll","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3237s"},{"start_seconds":3246,"text":"end it there yeah no totally agree and uh I I in general think AI is effect is the last tech wave and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3246s"},{"start_seconds":3256,"text":"so effectively all of the everything where we care about the outcome not the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3256s"},{"start_seconds":3265,"text":"process will be automated that's like just you know you care about how you know musician plays music not about the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3265s"},{"start_seconds":3274,"text":"outcome right so like that there you play you care about how people play sports but anywhere where you care about the outcome right will be automated sot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3274s"},{"start_seconds":3283,"text":"I mean over time and like you know there's a but especially for anything that's digital like digital first and so I agree that a lot of this kind of will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3283s"},{"start_seconds":3291,"text":"be done by agents and so yes autonomous agents effectively is autonomous Corporation that can have token holders that are you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3291s"},{"start_seconds":3299,"text":"benefiting from these Corporation operations but it's you know provable verifiable private Etc with all those","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3299s"},{"start_seconds":3305,"text":"properties and that will be representing DCF and then everything else is kind of yeah is more of a digital commodity that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3305s"},{"start_seconds":3314,"text":"this agents are going to be using themselves to interact with the world yeah I I think the the most interesting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3314s"},{"start_seconds":3322,"text":"concept to end out with we've been talking about digital Commodities is I think the most likely thing to be AI digital money maybe it's Bitcoin I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3322s"},{"start_seconds":3331,"text":"near is is uh very very likely to be the the the one I and and like you know we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3331s"},{"start_seconds":3337,"text":"have our own view on how to uh structure things like to make it AI commodity money but I actually think that has the highest market cap potential uh of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3337s"},{"start_seconds":3347,"text":"anything after after Bitcoin digital gold itself so it's going to be an exciting year I agree all right well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3347s"},{"start_seconds":3355,"text":"thank you for coming I hope it was informative for folks kind of expanding on on your thesis and how we're thinking about this and yeah I'm sure we we'll do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3355s"},{"start_seconds":3364,"text":"more of these things thank you thanks I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw&t=3364s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=P4gKz_S_Waw","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/P4gKz_S_Waw"}