{"id":"NTbtYgKK_7U","title":"Jesse Eckel crypto podcaster on Chain Abstraction","description":"In this episode of Chain Abstracted, Jesse Eckel (founder of the podcast Never Die: A Crypto Podcast) filming luxury weddings to diving into the world of cryptocurrency. He discusses his experiences, chain abstraction, and the future of decentralized finance and blockchain technology.\n\nTakeaways \n• Journey into Crypto: Jesse transitioned from a successful videography business to crypto investing after the pandemic, highlighting resilience and adaptability.\n• Chain Abstraction Importance: Emphasis on moving past infrastructure wars to focus on application development and user experience in the crypto space.\n• Future of Crypto: Predictions on the evolution of blockchain technology, including the significance of super networks and specialized chains. \n• Value of Decentralization: The importance of security and decentralization in building robust, trustworthy blockchain networks.\n• Advice for Newcomers: Encouragement for new entrants to focus on education, ethics, and solving real-world problems rather than just seeking financial gains.\n\nAbout Jesse Eckel\nSocial Channels\nTwitter/X: ⁠@Jesseeckel⁠\nSpotify: ⁠Never Die: A Crypto Podcast⁠\n\nJesse Eckel is the founder of the podcast Never Die: A Crypto Podcast, where he invites guests to discuss the latest trends in the crypto world. In addition to his podcast, Jesse founded Oathpact Ventures and Hammer Forged Creative and co-founded Levenue. He also shares his crypto research and insights on his YouTube channel, offering valuable perspectives to over 200k subscribers.\n\nAbout Never Die: A Crypto Podcast\nNever Die: A Crypto Podcast was created by Jesse Eckel and features notable guests such as Illia Polosukhin, Niraj Pant, and Brendan Farmer. On the podcast, they discuss various crypto-related projects/topics.\n\nHosts:\nAltan Tutar Co-founder of Nuffle Labs https://x.com/mraltantutar\nMichael Co-Founder and CPO of Open Forest Protocol @ozymandius_\n\nWebsite: ⁠https://chainabstracted.com/⁠\nConnect with NEAR\nWebsite: ⁠https://near.org/⁠\nTwitter: https://x.com/nearprotocol\n\nDISCLAIMER\nThe content herein is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and does not constitute an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any securities, options, futures, or other derivatives related to securities in any jurisdiction, nor should not be relied upon as advice to buy, sell or hold any of the foregoing. This content is intended to be general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. You should not make any decision, financial, investment, trading or otherwise, based on any of the information presented without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional advisor. NEAR Foundation and its agents, advisors, council members, officers and employees (the “Foundation Parties”) make no representation or warranties, expressed or implied, as to the accuracy of the information herein and expressly disclaims any and all liability that may be based on such information or any errors or omissions therein. The Foundation Parties shall have no liability whatsoever, under contract, tort, trust or otherwise, to any person arising from or related to the content or any use of the information contained herein by you or any of your representatives. All opinions expressed herein are the speakers’ own personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions of any entities.\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nNEAR AI: https://near.ai/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near \nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\n#NEAR #nearprotocol #NEARAI","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-07-13T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/NTbtYgKK_7U/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstracted dcom for more this is Alton uh from nuff labs and this is chain abstracted uh actually a new episode with Jesse whom I've gotten to know actually like seven eight months ago maybe that we talked about with near I think that was the case right yeah so yeah Jesse has been I think he's he's his very like valuable opinions because he's chatting with everyone that's talking about chain abstraction so love to love to learn about your background first like what how how did you get into crypto and what motivates you to just stay even like you know uh in the space I mean that's like a really long story I I'll try to make it brief um so so the way I got involved in crypto is like um back in 2015 through 2020 I ended up building this business over on the west coast in the US um really into cinematography um video work and I'd built up this business filming high-end luxury weddings so I'd go to the Bay Area and I'd film like multi-million dollar weddings it was nuts I'd have like uh these billionaires having these big old weddings this a huge uh a blast I was working around 12 to 15 uh weeks a year and uh when covid came that ended up knocking my business out completely so I was typically booked out a year in advance and uh within a couple weeks my booking went from uh book book to year in advance to nothing and I have five kids my wife's a stay-at home mom and I had to figure out what to do with myself and um I didn't know what to do so I started reading a bunch of books on like entrepreneurship uh just business success Etc trying to figure out like a path forward for myself and at the same time um I I had a friend who got kind of big on Tik Tok started making content on Tik Tok um he got into like 5,000 followers at the time I thought like he was world famous with 5,000 followers and he suggested I should get on there too so I started sharing kind of what I was learning and I came up with this idea uh pretty early on where I was trying to make a million dollars in a year uh it's like a Content piece so I was like I'm GNA try to make a million dollars in a year follow along with my journey I started off doing side hustles and um very quickly about six months into my journey I realized there's no way I'd get even close to a million uh doing side hustles so I switched to invest and so I took a lot of the capital I'd raised through side hustles and started investing I was very familiar with the crypto space um I'd been reading I was involved in the 2017 2018 cycle and I had made a lot of money in that cycle and then lost a lot of money in that cycle and um and but I had kept up to date with it uh and so I ended up jumping uh full force into crypto and got heavily involved I didn't make it to a million dollar uh by the end of my first year but I made it to 147,000 starting at zero I was literally at unemployment when I started and so I I was pretty pumped by that and um I just ended up never moving on from the crypto space I got really um down deep W with all the tech and and everything being built in the space the ethos the ideologies and just I kind of got just uh you know I don't know if it's blue pilled red pilled or whatever but I I was hooked and I ended up throwing everything in uh just full-time crypto um started diving down a lot more into the tech because I'd made some investing mistakes that uh re really were centered on me not understanding certain aspects aspects of the tech and uh it just kind of all spiraled out of control from there and that's how that's how I got where I'm at awesome um no this is interesting so wedding planning to wedding videographer wedding videographer I guess yeah yeah like Pro videographer um okay so um I think you have a different perspective like I'm a builder into space I would say currently given uh where I am um how do you see sort of the next year pretty much and I'll we go into sort of chain abstraction obviously but as a builder like I don't really care about that much about you know oh like what's going to happen to Market or just like it's not top of mind for me it's top of Mind of like you know uh what are we going to build next right and that's been kind of the thing that I'm kind of think about in CC but but how do you see the next year like what what different lenses that gives you and I I know that you also run like two podcasts right so your own and then you kind of help other folks to run podcasts as well um what do you have in your mind like first if you look at the LA next year when you say that do you mean like price-wise Market wise or do you mean like Tech wise no not Market wise I mean both like as an investor like what do you what do you look into right like it's uh I don't want to give anything yeah we should not talk about price because it's a it's a near pod us but uh like mainly mainly more about like what excites you like one of the things it's like I've been hearing in in in here is like you know everybody's talking about l2s like BTC l2s reaking and like is there something that you see it's like completely contradictory to what people are yeah it feels like and a lot of people have pointed this out it feels like everyone's stuck on like infrastructure uh in the crypto space and it feels like a lot of it just has to do with like basic psychology the the entire crypto space is like this really interesting study I feel like on psychology in that you see people um it kind of plays like this right somebody makes a lot of money investing into one idea and so all of the Mind share in the space kind of goes towards other kind of clones of that idea right so a lot of people made money uh originally in Bitcoin and then there was like kind of like some Bitcoin Forks where people were trying to where the next Bitcoin and ethereum came along uh that made a lot of money and then you had a lot of forks of where the next ethereum and that's just kept going because those Forks ended up being some of them ended up being pretty decently successful um early on and when I say successful I mean purely pricewise so early on when you look at things like cardano that ended up taking off didn't really require a lot of tech didn't really require a lot of work it was just like hey here's like this similar thing to ethereum doesn't have really that many users liquidity Etc but um it's hit a a high market cap so then we had uh tons tons of other clones launching right and now salana has done really well and so now we have tons of other salana likee clones launching and now we've got into this really interesting space with um l2s which is uh you know we have tons and tons of them launching they're raising um at these multi-billion dollar valuations and and it's all just kind of so like I think everyone's super tired of this right this it's been years years and years and years of new infra launches that really go nowhere right like um a lot of these l2s are launching with no users no liid all the liquidity that they're getting is kind of like gamed because it's because of air drops right like the the the usage and the the people coming on there trying to earn an air drop they're not actually using the thing for like what it's meant uh to be for And So It feels like we're kind of stuck here but I think that we're we're slowly moving past it and I see the tech evolving with things like um you know um the modular thesis right like everything's getting split up and broken apart it's actually getting efficient it's actually easy to use um a lot of these chains now it's really cheap to use a lot of these chains now the bridging is getting better uh the uux the UI is getting better and we're finally seeing some breakout apps the the apps um I would say that we're seeing so far like poly Market is um not not fully crypto native but man you've got presidential candidates talking about and referencing poly Market all the time um we have uh pump. fun which is a very Crypton native app um and there was a couple days I was doing more in fees than eum so I think we're getting there and I think we're getting to this the space where we're going to see apps really take off and I think in my opinion I think crypto gaming is actually going to be a huge Catalyst within this base um I just see a lot of uh pieces within crypto gaming that make a lot of sense to me as to why that would be adopted um and I think we're going to slowly move away from the infra Wars because I it's I think over the next couple years it's not going to make as much sense as it does today okay interesting so your thesis is pretty much like we've done BTC BTC forks eth eth forks and then L2 L2 Forks now we basically kind of cut to a point where you know like it doesn't make sense to build infra anymore well not that it doesn't make sense to build infra just that it's I think the Market's worn out from it right like you look at the l2s they're like starting to kind of falter a little bit and and it doesn't make it doesn't make sense in the sense that I think we're heading to this place of super networks so um you know we we've previously had like all these chains as sort of like islands and I think with things like the agare I think with things like ZK syns um elastic chain uh o op super chain like there's all these things being built which are like these super networks they're networks of chains and these things will be connected together by something as well and there'll get to a point where it just it doesn't make sense for somebody to be like hey um this one chain all by itself that's an island it is worth a lot of money money I think it'll be the networks that'll be worth a lot of money um and then the apps that are built on top of those networks could apps be networks themselves yeah I mean I think eventually the the apps themselves will acrew um most of the attention and value because it's just like with web too it just you know um if you have an app with millions of users uh that app could move to a different chain and the users and liquidity is going to move with them to a different chain and so I I think that they could be super networks of sorts um but when I say super networks I specifically mean like all these l2s um l1s connecting together in sort of like an internet of chains see okay so yeah in a world where there's networks and there's Technologies to connect these networks um and do do you do you think that these blockchains of blockchains is actually chain abstraction or is it going to be on the like how do you define chain abstraction in that world right this is a chain abstraction podcast obviously is that the blockchains themselves that rule chain abstractions chain abstraction like technology or whatever like user experience let's say or is it the apps that will rule that right like who would decide or are they just you know they symbiotic let's say they they exist together and in that world like where does the valy crew right like is it is it just apps I mean you gave in good example of pump du fun obviously pumpa fun had great fees for a couple weeks but he could also just like immediately right so like that's you never know I mean it's because there's liquidity and people are launching mem coins and there's like you know people want to launch m coins but how do how do you think about this like how do you think about chain abstraction and value cruel it's it's like it's Nobody by the way I've asked this a bunch of people and they have all given different responses yeah chain abstraction and value cruel so I I think to kind of like figure that out you got to figure out what what things are important um and what things are like quickly being uh commoditized so if you look at like for a while it was uh fast and cheap fast and cheap is super valuable but now everyone's fast and cheap so it's no longer Val like anyone gets been up a fast and cheap chain um so I I think okay so maybe taking a step back when I look at like the modular thesis or chain abstraction I think of um kind of like open market dynamics so you're looking at every piece of this the tech stack and you're having people compete for for like uh specializing in that piece right like data availability somebody specializing in that piece um you know know the the layer one layer two Etc and so you have all these uh competitive uh projects working to be better in in the the best rise to the top and um people copy those and then invent new better and better better ones so I think the really cool thing about chain abstraction is you're seeing so much competitive dynamics that we're we're getting to Solutions a lot quicker than I think we were previously previously we had like separated teams working on like their whole generalized Chain versus everyone working on Specialized pieces as far as like where the value acrel goes I think that it's going to be tough for a lot of these things to ACR value in in a lot of ways just like thinking about it because I mean the the network itself I think is a is a moat right like so you have a big Network like something like um the agare the elastic chain like that's valuable because all that liquidity is networked together and the bigger and bigger that Network gets the more it attracts uh more liquidity and users into it so I think pieces like that that can kind of capture um or be like almost like the infrastructure of the Internet connecting together they approve value uh but and I think the underlying chains like the the trust uh ethereum will continue to approve value because uh for one it's just been around for a long time and people trust it and there's something powerful about that right like if a new chain launches tomorrow and it's an exact clone of ethereum people will still trust it less because it's had less uptime and so the the amount of up time I think leads to a lot of trust and and builds its own network effect so I think um in in that way that those things will acove value but the other thing is like data data availability layers that's a tough one because like Celestia seemed like wow this is really really cool and now there's like a bajillion data availability layer and everyone's like you know what what's Celestia like I mean like we know what it is but like nobody talks about it in the same way um so that's really hard I I do think the apps though probably have the biggest advantage and maybe maybe just to add on to that like what would be your best case scenario for what a successfully developed chain abstraction stack would enable from for a specific dat Builder to come in a given use case that you know you've been falling for a minute explain what you mean by that so like when you say so so I think like yeah so so maybe just to go back like last cycle um everyone was saying we're going to build alt l1s that have the Capac to actually you know people to interact with dabs cheaply and quickly and then they said oh now we have to bridge between the different l1s because it's clunky and composability matters and now we're kind of watching this new narrative emerge of the aggregation layer chain abstraction now that we have composability let's assume we get through some level of putting the pieces together what does that open up for this space as a whole and like you know when do we reach that product Market fit dream of you're going to be able ble to run your app and scale it up you know to a million users for a given industry so to speak well okay okay I think the first thing you're asking is like um maybe I'm wrong about what you're meaning by this but when I look at the market I look at again the Fast and the cheap that everyone was focused on I think that gets commone tized away nobody really cares about that I think at the end of the day we go full circle in the things that people actually care about when it comes to chain abstraction or or like the elements that they're going to really focus on is everyone's going to be offering something cheap every everyone's going to be offering something quick there might be some use cases where like there's some things that are really really quick or need like extra speed right that's where you look at things like salana where um maybe they are maybe there is like high frequency trading or something where it's like they need this extra speed but I think for the most part the most important elements in stack are going to be security um and decentralization like the the like the ability to have property rights when I when I say decentralization I mean like permissionless property rights where you know if you build something on this it can never be rugged from you can never be taken away nobody's going to um be able to manipulate that in the future in the same way that like Amazon knew when they created a website on the internet that like nobody else was going to be able to take that away from them where if you built a website on Facebook um Facebook could change that on a whim so I think security and decentralization really are going to be the the most important elements because like um I I think it's just more of a blip this idea of like speed and cheap transactions I think those things really don't matter almost at all um and I think that's being proven out over the past year with everything kind of converging on that and pretty effortlessly it feels like interesting yeah so I guess like in a world of chain abstraction we always didn't think about like abstracting chained with like you know like modular in a sense that you build another blockchain that's like cheap and easy to use I mean that's you know as you said like it's interesting but like it's becoming a bit of a almost as Ling l2s right now um the other primitive that I'm personally excited about is like the IG lir and like reaking as a way to kind of build something uh verifiably um what's your take on reaking in general like how you know first time you encoun reaking because that is chain abstraction basically you're abstracting ethereum and building like a pretty much verifiable Cloud um how do you think about it and and we can we can deep dive into it as well like what's your what's your take as an investor uh sitting outside I think I think You' you have a bit of a different lens than than as a builder of an abs2 like when I think of um igen Lair or reaking um the first thing I think of is like the speed of innovation so when and and overall chain abstraction I think speed of innovation so what are you're enabling is you're enabling somebody to launch a chain without having to worry about how to bootstrap their validator set right they could just tap straight into igir they don't have to worry about security they don't have to wor worry about a Val validator set so you're opening the door for a lot more people to try a lot more experiments and obviously some of those are going to be scams a lot of them are going to be scams and just nonsense but because you're having more experimentation and people are able to get to Market a lot quicker you're going to figure out what works and what doesn't a lot quicker and so that's like overall like with chain abstraction that's what I get excited about is it makes it really easy like look at Layer Two is like everyone in their mom think it's off like Fox News is launching an L2 I thought that was a joke I literally thought it was like satire but it's real um you know everyone and their mom is launching l2s and all these weird experiments are happening and those things couldn't have happened like a couple years ago when you like you had to bootstrap these things and build them from the ground up so I get really excited about that because I think we're going to we're going to reach wherever we're going a lot quicker um and I also get really excited about the concept of um specialized l2s and I I think that's another thing that chain abstraction heavily allows which is right now we have a lot of generalized chains like everything's like we're ethereum and we do everything um where I believe like the value especially when these with these kind of Internet of chains is going to be in really hyper specialized chains like uh like I mentioned earlier like we're the ridiculously ridiculously fast chain like and because of that we enable things that you could never do on other things or you know we're a privacy heavily privacy focused chain everything on this chain is fully private and so um I I think what you'll see is like certain apps will be built on the specialized ch chains and you'll actually see this weird environment where like somebody might be on chain a doing a transaction but they want it to be private so they send it to chain B which is a privacy chain and then uh maybe they need it done really quick so they they route it through you know I don't know chain C or whatever which is super fast I don't know you get the idea like it opens the door to all these kind of weird things that we've never had before and it's going to continue to evolve and grow and the experiments will continue to play out and um the faster these experiments play out the faster we reach wherever we're going I think Kinto is a regulated kyc AML uh L2 that's kind of a great manifestation of the example you just gave we'll see I think they're they're still on testing or maybe they just went live but it definitely has the promise of bringing on some of these more Niche corporate solutions that you know they won't touch on other ltf yeah um so you mentioned pump up one and you mentioned um a couple more apps as well um what makes you excited like gaming you mentioned gaming do you have other sort of exciting things that you know are like oh if the Builder listens to it because like there's a lot of people that listen to this they're like oh I want to build on a chain abstracted world what does that mean like what would you want to see like as a as somebody who is you know looking into I know that you you look into polygon a lot I know that that's from your like Twitter Persona um like what what do you want if you were a builder and if you had I don't know like 20 Builders down in you that's just like can build whatever you like to do what would have what would you have built that wasn't possible would I build on like an environment like this where you had specialized chains and it was yeah specialized chains applications like let's just start with chains uh and then let's just WR apps like when we say chains and then chain abstraction is like doesn't fit but like let's let's say what's possible really that you think is is quite unique uh that wasn't possible I think it's really hard to say I I think it's one of those things like you look at the uh predictions of like what the internet would be in the 1990s and they're like so off and people people didn't realize what the internet would be and it's almost like uh the internet had a lot of these emergent properties where as it progressed people kind of figured out uh what it would be used for and what it use cases were and before that a lot of people made fun of the internet and were like there's this really famous um uh clip of Bill Gates and Bill Gates is on a uh uh talk show and on the talk show the host is like asking him like so what's this internet thing and he's like well on the internet I can listen to you can listen to a baseball game and then the host like is like yeah but I can do that on a radio and he like pulls out a radio and he's like well you can uh send an email to your friends he's like yeah but I could also do that with a piece of paper and they're basically just tearing apart the internet saying that like it's useless it's garbage and you know there's no point to it because you can already do these things you're finding a solution to problems that don't exist and it was hard for people to fathom back then what it would become because the pieces weren't fully there and I think the maybe the coolest thing about chain abstraction is like it really is hard to predict what it will enable uh but you know it's going to enable things that we can't imagine today uh in the same way that the internet enabled things that we couldn't imagine back then um maybe it's the social media network of the future maybe it's like I said um I think privacy is actually a huge problem in crypto I think it's huge vulnerability in the ethos of like you know we say it's censorship resistant but all the government would have to do would be like hey by the way can't hold crypto and oh yeah we can see all the crypto you're holding so um that's actually a huge uh flaw because they could you know if if you had a tyrannical government that's like you know really bad and you wanted to like hold your crypto and they could track every movement you make well there's no point into crypto so I think privacy is a huge thing um I think once you have privacy you can have like private information on chain so um uh like health records Etc maybe there's a use case with that and Ai and truth and some of these problems that we're dealing with in in the real world uh around those things um voting maybe even I I I don't know it it's really hard for me to imagine I just know that it it it pushes the forward the speed of innovation and with that you're going to get a lot of experimentation and experimentation eventually yield something useful period and we just have so much money in the crypto space that like we have so much room to experiment I see makes sense I was wondering Jesse on on that topic um how do you see the user experience evolving with uh you know from a higher Development Across you know different l2s and you know the overall chain abstraction stack well you have things like rabi wallet right which I remember I used to have to switch between networks I never even think about that because rabby wallet automatically does it but then we have these other wallets and uh things that are like abstracting that further where like the the user doesn't even um doesn't have to think about these things so I think that's probably where we're going I don't think we're going to have things like you know right now you have Argent wallet for Stark and then you have um phantom for salana and Etc there'll always be like the niche ones that you do need I think a wallet for um but if I remember back in 2017 you need a wallet for everything like every single chain I remember I had like 20 different wallets for like literally everything and now it's like metam ask rabby pretty much you know does it for you and you don't you know phantom for salana ETC so I think that'll continue to get abstracted away and it'll get easier and easier for the end user like if you look at crypto gaming um a lot of these like crypto gaming games they don't the the end user doesn't even know they're using crypto they genuinely like have no idea what's going in crypto space they just get to own the assets they earn in the game it's like in fortnite when you uh buy a skin you just now have the ability to go resell it somewhere and and they don't know that they're actually using crypto because it the it it makes it super easy for them and the idea is like the more advanced users will go off in self- custody in a wallet Etc and so I think um I think maybe initially it'll get more difficult but I think in the long run it'll be way simpler than what we have today so train abstraction like you get into a space where you know you're not think about the wallets and the network uh that you're on how do you feel about Security in the space right I mean let's say you go to different l2s and l1s you don't know their security assumptions of that L2 um what should one do to kind of like okay let's just these problems are solved you don't have to think about the wallet you don't have to think about the bridge but you're also making it very important distinction between because you know all the crypto systems are based on some some security assumptions right how how should like one kind of maneuver into space I mean right now you have to go to resources like l beat Etc to like go look at like um I think they've done a really good job of saying hey uh especially on l2b you could look at an L2 and you can say hey here's the risk factors here's how they could steal the liquidity here's how they could push an update and U cut you off Etc so they've done a good job explaining that and I would just hope that in the as things expand um wallets would continue to do things like that right like even now W um wallets like metamask in the past when you would do a transaction that was draining your wallet it wouldn't even tell you would it wouldn't make it human readable and newer wallets are human readable it'll be like hey by the way this is going to train your wallet is are you sure you want to do this and so I think in the future it'd be like hey you're moving to a chain that has a you know pretty high risks are you sure you want to do this and I think that'll be abstracted to the wallets and um you you you put a lot of trust in those wallets but again I I think it's one of those things where like the social lirer is able to kind of keep an eye on that right if a wallet's being weird about that I think something like the social a be able to catch that interesting so a user experience of and I was thinking about this myself so user experience of like hey you know you're about to jump onto a new L3 here are the risks the data is provided by al2 beat and maybe data is actually confirmed by some operators let's say on igir everybody tested it and say hey you should not jump into this place because XYZ and maybe even like a user experience where you go in and say hey if these are the you know just literally a toggle maybe and you say hey if the these corre of a new chain is it I don't want that to happen I don't want to sign any transaction like is that where we going like it's basically it's an abstraction on top but like you know it's way way more useful for the you know I think so and I think it's one of those things that like the way you learn and the way the open markets function is like they they function by by learning through pain right like so stable coins took a huge leap forward because of Luna and the collapse that happened um every hack that we have helps make the space more secure because we learn lessons from the those things and so when we have the First Data availability layer fail or we have the first like L2 that just outright scams people happen like people will come up with solutions to these problems the market will take note and be like oo I need to be more cautious so because they're being more cautious about what l2s are using certain l2s will try to differentiate themselves and show how they're safe and certain wallets will want to attract users to be like hey we help you find which ones are safe so you don't have whatever happened with that one happen and so I think the market just again it kind of evolves like that with like a trial and air and uh I think that's I think failure and the error part is actually a really important part of uh markets growing and evolving into what they're you know becoming okay yeah that's that's cool that thanks for sharing that um I'll take this a bit of a different perspective so uh in this podcast we had obviously started with Ilia right IIA is pretty technical talks about near you know like pretty pretty good figure for me and a good Mentor for me myself and then that was Zaki you know as a cosmos IBC we had Erica which was like she talked about like how do you build a community and chain abstracted world right like how do you kind of build these like almost like a bridge for for communities right um and for your background I guess like you have a different youve started with I guess uh wedding videography to ended up like you know um you know being being almost like an investor but also like running in doing your own research through the podcast you do right so um how would you recommend for folks like you know there might be some folks listening to this be like I'm really new to crypto like I don't know what to do here like for me it's technical right and do you think like first how do they contribute second does chain abstraction really help uh help that world where there's more people that can contribute to crypto than used I would say definitely it helps more people contribute because the more it's abstracted um for example like I mentioned earlier any like I could go launch an L2 today if I wanted to I could literally go launch an L2 but wouldn't have the expertise to have launched a chain a couple years ago why would I launch an L2 like I don't have a good reason but maybe there's someone out there that comes up with a reason for an individual to launch an L2 that actually makes a lot of sense that no one else would have thought of before um that will that will push the space forward so I think yeah it definitely opens the door for more people to um get involved in the space but also like you know where somebody maybe couldn't tackle the whole problem of like building an entire blockchain from the ground up maybe they some entrepreneur does come along and say hey um it kind of sucks how we get hacked like all these apps get hacked like we say we have these secure chains right all these apps on top of the chains keeping me hacked I have a solution for that has nothing to do with crypto necessarily but if we were to implement this you know feature maybe it's a feature in a wallet Etc I don't know um we can solve that um it opens the door for interesting Solutions I think like that if you were to come to crypto right now how would you contribute would you do the same thing um like the same thing you do or or like any advice in someone any advice in someone that comes in doesn't have the skill sets of of technicality how I think if you get involved in the space um like basic education is a really great way to contribute what I've noticed in crypto I think it's a huge problem is like there's like the core of crypto which really understands the space and maybe values it and then there's like and maybe that makes up like 3% of crypto and then there's like everyone else and especially when you're talking about a bull market like it becomes really mercenary um really bad things maybe rice to the top um a lot of scams a lot of ponies and people don't know any better they don't know any difference between hex hex's pulse chain in ethereum like genuinely if you go talk to an average person they'll say yeah pulse chain and ethereum that's like they're just as good right in their brain like that makes sense and so education value like people that actually have values and just morals on some level can bring a lot to the space in even very basic education like how do you use a wallet how do you get on chain um how do you avoid scams things like that uh I I I would say we could use thousands and thousands upon or thousands of new Educators in the space to help people on board get started and get going even if it's just helping your friends out helping them get started if you were to advise an L1 Foundation today in a you know increasingly modular environment how to stay relevant or how to attract Builders what would your advice be to the l1s out there that are either from the 2020 cycle or recently deployed to stay relevant in this in this new environment even 2017 cycle yeah even I think it really is you got to get a killer app on board it's the same thing as like uh if you look at like the console Wars even though it's a lot different like Xbox versus PlayStation like the way that one would gain an edge over the other would be like they have a exclusive IP right they have some sort of Ip that attracts people to go buy that console they're like oh I want to play Halo or um I want to play the Spider-Man games or whatever and so in the same way with uh chains like you need useful apps that like that's the place that people go go and get that app and that's kind of hard to do today because there's so many people fighting for attention and there's so many of these l2s that have all these incentives to like pull people over there so I'd say it's really difficult to be a an L1 especially a generalized L1 uh today in this environment and it actually makes a lot more sense for most people to be some sort of L2 like you're you're going to start off more profitable um especially as we start to build these super networks like you'll be able to connect in to other uh chains with their liquidity their users and that's able to move over a lot easier and I think it's going to be increasingly more difficult for a new L1 to start and you're going to you're going to have trouble finding a good reason other than we need to pump a token up and make a lot of money which is if people are being honest that's why a lot of these all l1s do get launched is primarily it's not about tech it's really hey we're going to throw this our own unique spin on ethereum we're going to launch a token and we're going to make a lot of money and that's really the problem with the space is like we a lot of people have lost sight of like let's Advance forward the space and it's about uh token launch and you know seeing how much money they can make from that cool yeah uh I'm gonna twist this again so when I did the podcast with you last time one of the things that stroke me was curiosity like basically like asking and going deeper and I've done a lot of podcasts I'm not just saying like I was doing less started doing more now um how could one build that in crypto how could one build that muscle of like hey you know I think a lot of folks just read crypto Twitter and you know they they believe in things that they they see how could build that like just go deeper and deeper and and what's your like mental model to get that and does chain abstraction change that kind of um kind of world model I think what got me down that pipeline is I I started off coming the space I want to make money and then um I decided I'd be a lot better investor if I learned more and I had I'd have Edge because I understood more of this base than uh maybe the average participant and then the more I started to understand the space the more certain ideas I'd be like that's a good idea oh wow I see what that could enable and I started to think forward in the future like maybe where the space might go and then in thinking where the space might go it kind of started to fascinate me of like oh wow this this whole idea of like open finance is really cool like uh you know governments have controlled the financial systems of the world for like all time what if we had a like an internet like layer where it was just anyone could tap into and what would be the Imp implications of that and like is this Tech actually valuable that's especially in a fair market that's something you ask yourself like is this all just ponies and useful useless Tech or are we actually building something valuable and so um all those things Plus getting burned on certain things is what really got me interested in the space and like wanting to go deeper and like start understanding it and learning it and then I guess I would say that I'm like naturally a a curious person and just like to like to learn but I think crypto uniquely is like cryp in the same way that people are really stoked about Ai and how it's going to change the world which that's nuts it's it's going to change the world the next like seven years the world's going to change more than I think the last like 700 it's going to get crazy but in the same way crypto if you really look at it from first principles enables some really world changing things that uh it's hard to understand the implications of but I think one of the biggest ones is when governments can freely print as unlimited amounts of money to fund Wars and like endless government expansion like that traditionally really hurts the individual of that country right like they don't they don't typically serve the individuals of that country uh in the capacity that they're meant to the capacity they're meant to and where it comes from is this idea that like you know if you have a bunch of people that are coordinating together through a central figure um that they're more powerful than a bunch of people that are not coordinating together so the coordinating group if it went to the group that wasn't coordinating typically just takes all their stuff and like you know I don't know enslaves them or something um and that's kind of historically how it's played out but the T typically That central figure uh that's like the the coordination mechanism becomes corrupted and they serve themselves and they do a bunch of bad stuff and then you know when they get the supply of money it's just too much power like they're going to print unlimited amounts of money and it and like it creates a financial Environ if you think of a a country sort of like soil it creates really unhealthy soil for for like entrepreneurship to grow up in and so I get really excited thinking about this idea of like all these third world countries which probably going to be the first people to really tap into crypto and the idea of like them building this fertile soil where like entrepreneurship can Thrive and their people can Thrive and like the implications of how that's going to change the world and when you take that money away from the governments they're going to have to be a lot more frugal look look at the scale of Wars the the scale of Wars is going to have to be reduced because they're not going to have unlimited budgets to fight you know endless Wars so I just really see civilization as a whole really turning on on this point of open finance and I think it's actually a huge good for for the world and and it is going to have massive implications and that's really I guess maybe what got me down that rabbit hole thinking like wow this is going to change everything but as far as like chain abstraction and how that could get people curious um chain abstraction opens up crypto I think to a lot more things than just Finance in the sense that because it's enabling all this experimentation you are naturally going to get people trying like really stupid things that seem stupid but they could actually be genius and end up opening up these entire new world of use cases for crypto and so it it should just get you excited from the sheer fact of like it opens the door to millions of more experiments and we don't know which ones of those are going to work and which ones of those are going to fail um but we could get some really interesting use cases out of crypto that we never even imagined kind of maybe feed that like you know people talk about privacy onchain identity onchain governance onchain even like social community on chain maybe from those in reference to that kind of social Paradigm you've presented where would you like to see more experimentation Innovation or investment between some of those categories experimentation I would say oh I've already mentioned privacy so I'll say privacy um but I would say uh G we have a ton of experiments going on gaming I'm just I guess waiting for those to take off um outside of that social is really interesting I think there's a lot with it feels like even though so far like 100% it feels like of the experiments have been scams it feels like there really is something around tokenizing attention and the idea of like celebrities and creators and there is something there because I know on the Creator side and I think you'd be shocked how many musicians Etc they don't make as much money as you think even some of these creators I know creators that have like 10 million followers and they're Liv they're like making two grand a month and so it's there's got to be a way to tokenize attention and right now it's like meme coins and kind of like shady stuff it doesn't work right but I think there's there's something there that we haven't quite figured out that's going to make a lot more sense that's going to allow maybe imagine you're like one of the first followers Mr Beast and the Mr Beast rises to fame well you kind of contributed to that in a way right as a supporter follower watching the videos Etc and imagine you could like bet or invest into Mr Beast early on in that brand and kind of rise with it and I think there's a world and an outcome where that happens and makes sense I just don't know exactly what it's going to be interesting okay um I think let's let's closely wrap it up uh what what you want like people to know about about you and um chain abstraction anything that you we probably sort of like forgot to ask you that do you'd like to share with anybody that can watch this from like near I know that people watch from anywhere like getting more and more people asking about us um yeah like what would be one thing that uh you'd love to share with folks that's that's like a really broad question um one thing I guess I I guess it's the same message I feel like a lot of other people are are sharing and but I I really feel strongly about it and that's that um we are moving in crypto away from the infra Wars and into the Super Network and app Wars and I think anyone right now who's like thinking they're going to launch the the next best generalized L2 if they're thinking you know it's all about these VC raises Etc I I think you're missing the point I really think like look at all these chains that like launched and they they raised bun money but now they're dead like there's so many ghost chains that's insane like so many and so if you really want to build something that lasts you're going to have to put in the hard hard work and actually build like a valuable app you can't just like Fork some code and like hope to make millions and millions of dollars and that's as it should be and so I don't know I encourage people to I guess solve harder problems and uh and focus their attention on things that like really are solving a problem for some sort of end user and bringing value to the space and on top of that I think one of the biggest mistakes being made in the crypto space right now today is this move away from um embracing seeing like the the open network of users and like going straight to VCS and the reason is is like you're seeing so many of these projects that they're raising a ton of capital from BCS they're launching at multi-billion Dollar valuations and then um you know users don't have a chance to like get in early there's no Community built there's no Allegiance built and it's basically down only and so you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot by the time you're like your funds get unlocked you're like you're not going to have that much capital and uh nobody's going to want to like invest in a project that's been down down only or the charts down only and you know the the best projects are the ones that start off really small really Frugal you don't need to raise that much Capital like some of these l2s they're lit just like forking code some of these l2s are raising like hundreds of millions of dollars and it's like man you could probably do like a million dollar raise and you'd be good and then launch it a super super low valuation and let the market organically carry you up let users get involved because those same users are going to come support your network they're going to come attract Builders they're going to bring mind share and attention you need to do the take the hard path not the easy path because the easy path has maybe um vanity metric success on paper it looks good for a little bit look at I I don't want to make fun of Celestia but look at Celestia's you know huge rise they took over the space and then ma massive decline in attention and so you want to do the hard work actually um organically grow attract real apps build real apps that is the path forward for the crypto space and that is always the way you're going to succeed shortcuts in the long run will eventually fail you awesome thanks for sharing that man well thanks for being part of this uh I know that we've been trying to sort of host this for a while but uh it was it was really nice to chat with you this was aome","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:45:55.510Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":0,"text":"nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstracted","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=0s"},{"start_seconds":9,"text":"dcom for more this is Alton uh from nuff labs and this is chain abstracted uh actually a new episode with Jesse whom","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=9s"},{"start_seconds":17,"text":"I've gotten to know actually like seven eight months ago maybe that we talked about with near I think that was the case","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=17s"},{"start_seconds":24,"text":"right yeah so yeah Jesse has been I think he's he's his very like valuable opinions because he's chatting with everyone that's talking about chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=24s"},{"start_seconds":31,"text":"abstraction so love to love to learn about your background first like what how how did you get into crypto and what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=31s"},{"start_seconds":39,"text":"motivates you to just stay even like you know uh in the space I mean that's like a really long story I I'll try to make it brief um so so the way I got involved","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=39s"},{"start_seconds":48,"text":"in crypto is like um back in 2015 through 2020 I ended up building this business over on the west coast in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=48s"},{"start_seconds":56,"text":"US um really into cinematography um video work and I'd built up this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=56s"},{"start_seconds":63,"text":"business filming high-end luxury weddings so I'd go to the Bay Area and I'd film like multi-million dollar weddings it was nuts I'd have like uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=63s"},{"start_seconds":71,"text":"these billionaires having these big old weddings this a huge uh a blast I was working around 12 to 15 uh weeks a year","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=71s"},{"start_seconds":80,"text":"and uh when covid came that ended up knocking my business out completely so I was typically booked out a year in advance and uh within a couple weeks my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=80s"},{"start_seconds":89,"text":"booking went from uh book book to year in advance to nothing and I have five kids my wife's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=89s"},{"start_seconds":96,"text":"stay-at home mom and I had to figure out what to do with myself and um I didn't know what to do so I started reading a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=96s"},{"start_seconds":104,"text":"bunch of books on like entrepreneurship uh just business success Etc trying to figure out like a path forward for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=104s"},{"start_seconds":112,"text":"myself and at the same time um I I had a friend who got kind of big on Tik Tok started making content on Tik Tok um he","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=112s"},{"start_seconds":120,"text":"got into like 5,000 followers at the time I thought like he was world famous with 5,000 followers and he suggested I should get on there too so I started","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=120s"},{"start_seconds":127,"text":"sharing kind of what I was learning and I came up with this idea uh pretty early on where I was trying to make a million dollars in a year uh it's like a Content","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=127s"},{"start_seconds":134,"text":"piece so I was like I'm GNA try to make a million dollars in a year follow along with my journey I started off doing side hustles and um very quickly about six","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=134s"},{"start_seconds":144,"text":"months into my journey I realized there's no way I'd get even close to a million uh doing side hustles so I switched to invest and so I took a lot of the capital I'd raised through side","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=144s"},{"start_seconds":152,"text":"hustles and started investing I was very familiar with the crypto space um I'd been reading I was involved in the 2017 2018 cycle and I had made a lot of money","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=152s"},{"start_seconds":161,"text":"in that cycle and then lost a lot of money in that cycle and um and but I had kept up to date with it uh and so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=161s"},{"start_seconds":170,"text":"ended up jumping uh full force into crypto and got heavily involved I didn't make it to a million dollar uh by the end of my first year but I made it to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=170s"},{"start_seconds":178,"text":"147,000 starting at zero I was literally at unemployment when I started and so I I was pretty pumped by that and um I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=178s"},{"start_seconds":185,"text":"just ended up never moving on from the crypto space I got really um down deep W with all the tech and and everything","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=185s"},{"start_seconds":193,"text":"being built in the space the ethos the ideologies and just I kind of got just uh you know I don't know if it's blue","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=193s"},{"start_seconds":199,"text":"pilled red pilled or whatever but I I was hooked and I ended up throwing everything in uh just full-time crypto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=199s"},{"start_seconds":207,"text":"um started diving down a lot more into the tech because I'd made some investing mistakes that uh re really were centered","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=207s"},{"start_seconds":215,"text":"on me not understanding certain aspects aspects of the tech and uh it just kind of all spiraled out of control from there and that's how that's how I got","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=215s"},{"start_seconds":223,"text":"where I'm at awesome um no this is interesting so wedding planning to wedding videographer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=223s"},{"start_seconds":232,"text":"wedding videographer I guess yeah yeah like Pro videographer um okay so um I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=232s"},{"start_seconds":239,"text":"think you have a different perspective like I'm a builder into space I would say currently given uh where I am um how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=239s"},{"start_seconds":247,"text":"do you see sort of the next year pretty much and I'll we go into sort of chain abstraction obviously but as a builder like I don't really care about that much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=247s"},{"start_seconds":256,"text":"about you know oh like what's going to happen to Market or just like it's not top of mind for me it's top of Mind of like you know uh what are we going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=256s"},{"start_seconds":264,"text":"build next right and that's been kind of the thing that I'm kind of think about in CC but but how do you see the next year like what what different lenses","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=264s"},{"start_seconds":272,"text":"that gives you and I I know that you also run like two podcasts right so your own and then you kind of help other folks to run podcasts as well um what do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=272s"},{"start_seconds":282,"text":"you have in your mind like first if you look at the LA next year when you say that do you mean like price-wise Market wise or do you mean like Tech wise no not Market wise I mean both like as an","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=282s"},{"start_seconds":290,"text":"investor like what do you what do you look into right like it's uh I don't want to give anything yeah we should not talk about price because it's a it's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=290s"},{"start_seconds":298,"text":"near pod us but uh like mainly mainly more about like what excites you like one of the things it's like I've been hearing in in in here is like you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=298s"},{"start_seconds":307,"text":"everybody's talking about l2s like BTC l2s reaking and like is there something that you see it's like completely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=307s"},{"start_seconds":314,"text":"contradictory to what people are yeah it feels like and a lot of people have pointed this out it feels like everyone's stuck on like infrastructure","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=314s"},{"start_seconds":322,"text":"uh in the crypto space and it feels like a lot of it just has to do with like basic psychology the the entire crypto space is like this really interesting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=322s"},{"start_seconds":329,"text":"study I feel like on psychology in that you see people um it kind of plays like this right somebody makes a lot of money","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=329s"},{"start_seconds":337,"text":"investing into one idea and so all of the Mind share in the space kind of goes towards other kind of clones of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=337s"},{"start_seconds":345,"text":"idea right so a lot of people made money uh originally in Bitcoin and then there was like kind of like some Bitcoin Forks where people were trying to where the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=345s"},{"start_seconds":353,"text":"next Bitcoin and ethereum came along uh that made a lot of money and then you had a lot of forks of where the next ethereum and that's just kept going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=353s"},{"start_seconds":362,"text":"because those Forks ended up being some of them ended up being pretty decently successful um early on and when I say successful I mean purely pricewise so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=362s"},{"start_seconds":370,"text":"early on when you look at things like cardano that ended up taking off didn't really require a lot of tech didn't really require a lot of work it was just like hey here's like this similar thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=370s"},{"start_seconds":379,"text":"to ethereum doesn't have really that many users liquidity Etc but um it's hit a a high market cap so then we had uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=379s"},{"start_seconds":387,"text":"tons tons of other clones launching right and now salana has done really well and so now we have tons of other salana likee clones launching and now we've got into this really interesting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=387s"},{"start_seconds":395,"text":"space with um l2s which is uh you know we have tons and tons of them launching they're raising um at these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=395s"},{"start_seconds":403,"text":"multi-billion dollar valuations and and it's all just kind of so like I think everyone's super tired of this right this it's been years years and years and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=403s"},{"start_seconds":411,"text":"years of new infra launches that really go nowhere right like um a lot of these l2s are launching with no users no liid","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=411s"},{"start_seconds":420,"text":"all the liquidity that they're getting is kind of like gamed because it's because of air drops right like the the the usage and the the people coming on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=420s"},{"start_seconds":427,"text":"there trying to earn an air drop they're not actually using the thing for like what it's meant uh to be for And So It feels like we're kind of stuck here but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=427s"},{"start_seconds":436,"text":"I think that we're we're slowly moving past it and I see the tech evolving with things like um you know um the modular","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=436s"},{"start_seconds":445,"text":"thesis right like everything's getting split up and broken apart it's actually getting efficient it's actually easy to use um a lot of these chains now it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=445s"},{"start_seconds":453,"text":"really cheap to use a lot of these chains now the bridging is getting better uh the uux the UI is getting better and we're finally seeing some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=453s"},{"start_seconds":460,"text":"breakout apps the the apps um I would say that we're seeing so far like poly Market is um not not fully crypto native","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=460s"},{"start_seconds":467,"text":"but man you've got presidential candidates talking about and referencing poly Market all the time um we have uh pump. fun which is a very Crypton native","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=467s"},{"start_seconds":476,"text":"app um and there was a couple days I was doing more in fees than eum so I think we're getting there and I think we're getting to this the space where we're going to see apps really take off and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=476s"},{"start_seconds":485,"text":"think in my opinion I think crypto gaming is actually going to be a huge Catalyst within this base um I just see a lot of uh pieces within crypto gaming","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=485s"},{"start_seconds":493,"text":"that make a lot of sense to me as to why that would be adopted um and I think we're going to slowly move away from the infra Wars because I it's I think over the next couple years it's not going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=493s"},{"start_seconds":501,"text":"make as much sense as it does today okay interesting so your thesis is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=501s"},{"start_seconds":510,"text":"pretty much like we've done BTC BTC forks eth eth forks and then L2 L2 Forks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=510s"},{"start_seconds":517,"text":"now we basically kind of cut to a point where you know like it doesn't make sense to build infra","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=517s"},{"start_seconds":524,"text":"anymore well not that it doesn't make sense to build infra just that it's I think the Market's worn out from it right like you look at the l2s they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=524s"},{"start_seconds":533,"text":"like starting to kind of falter a little bit and and it doesn't make it doesn't make sense in the sense that I think we're heading to this place of super","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=533s"},{"start_seconds":540,"text":"networks so um you know we we've previously had like all these chains as sort of like islands and I think with things like the agare I think with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=540s"},{"start_seconds":548,"text":"things like ZK syns um elastic chain uh o op super chain like there's all these things being built which are like these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=548s"},{"start_seconds":555,"text":"super networks they're networks of chains and these things will be connected together by something as well and there'll get to a point where it just it doesn't make sense for somebody","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=555s"},{"start_seconds":564,"text":"to be like hey um this one chain all by itself that's an island it is worth a lot of money money I think it'll be the networks that'll be worth a lot of money","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=564s"},{"start_seconds":572,"text":"um and then the apps that are built on top of those networks could apps be networks themselves yeah I mean I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=572s"},{"start_seconds":580,"text":"eventually the the apps themselves will acrew um most of the attention and value because it's just like with web too it just you know um if you have an app with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=580s"},{"start_seconds":588,"text":"millions of users uh that app could move to a different chain and the users and liquidity is going to move with them to a different chain and so I I think that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=588s"},{"start_seconds":597,"text":"they could be super networks of sorts um but when I say super networks I specifically mean like all these l2s um l1s connecting together in sort of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=597s"},{"start_seconds":606,"text":"an internet of chains see okay so yeah in a world where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=606s"},{"start_seconds":614,"text":"there's networks and there's Technologies to connect these networks um and do do you do you think that these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=614s"},{"start_seconds":622,"text":"blockchains of blockchains is actually chain abstraction or is it going to be on the like how do you define chain abstraction in that world right this is a chain abstraction podcast obviously is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=622s"},{"start_seconds":631,"text":"that the blockchains themselves that rule chain abstractions chain abstraction like technology or whatever like user experience let's say or is it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=631s"},{"start_seconds":639,"text":"the apps that will rule that right like who would decide or are they just you know they symbiotic let's say they they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=639s"},{"start_seconds":646,"text":"exist together and in that world like where does the valy crew right like is it is it just apps I mean you gave in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=646s"},{"start_seconds":653,"text":"good example of pump du fun obviously pumpa fun had great fees for a couple weeks but he could also just like immediately right so like that's you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=653s"},{"start_seconds":661,"text":"never know I mean it's because there's liquidity and people are launching mem coins and there's like you know people want to launch m coins but how do how do you think about this like how do you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=661s"},{"start_seconds":668,"text":"think about chain abstraction and value cruel it's it's like it's Nobody by the way I've asked this a bunch of people and they have all given different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=668s"},{"start_seconds":675,"text":"responses yeah chain abstraction and value cruel so I I think to kind of like figure that out you got to figure out what what things are important um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=675s"},{"start_seconds":682,"text":"what things are like quickly being uh commoditized so if you look at like for a while it was uh fast and cheap fast","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=682s"},{"start_seconds":690,"text":"and cheap is super valuable but now everyone's fast and cheap so it's no longer Val like anyone gets been up a fast and cheap chain um so I I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=690s"},{"start_seconds":699,"text":"okay so maybe taking a step back when I look at like the modular thesis or chain abstraction I think of um kind of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=699s"},{"start_seconds":706,"text":"open market dynamics so you're looking at every piece of this the tech stack and you're having people compete for for like uh specializing in that piece right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=706s"},{"start_seconds":715,"text":"like data availability somebody specializing in that piece um you know know the the layer one layer two Etc and so you have all these uh competitive uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=715s"},{"start_seconds":724,"text":"projects working to be better in in the the best rise to the top and um people copy those and then invent new better","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=724s"},{"start_seconds":731,"text":"and better better ones so I think the really cool thing about chain abstraction is you're seeing so much competitive dynamics that we're we're getting to Solutions a lot quicker than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=731s"},{"start_seconds":739,"text":"I think we were previously previously we had like separated teams working on like their whole generalized Chain versus everyone working on Specialized pieces","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=739s"},{"start_seconds":748,"text":"as far as like where the value acrel goes I think that it's going to be tough for a lot of these things to ACR value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=748s"},{"start_seconds":757,"text":"in in a lot of ways just like thinking about it because I mean the the network itself I think is a is a moat right like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=757s"},{"start_seconds":765,"text":"so you have a big Network like something like um the agare the elastic chain like that's valuable because all that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=765s"},{"start_seconds":772,"text":"liquidity is networked together and the bigger and bigger that Network gets the more it attracts uh more liquidity and users into it so I think pieces like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=772s"},{"start_seconds":781,"text":"that that can kind of capture um or be like almost like the infrastructure of the Internet connecting together they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=781s"},{"start_seconds":787,"text":"approve value uh but and I think the underlying chains like the the trust uh ethereum will continue to approve value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=787s"},{"start_seconds":795,"text":"because uh for one it's just been around for a long time and people trust it and there's something powerful about that right like if a new chain launches","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=795s"},{"start_seconds":803,"text":"tomorrow and it's an exact clone of ethereum people will still trust it less because it's had less uptime and so the the amount of up time I think leads to a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=803s"},{"start_seconds":810,"text":"lot of trust and and builds its own network effect so I think um in in that way that those things will acove value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=810s"},{"start_seconds":818,"text":"but the other thing is like data data availability layers that's a tough one because like Celestia seemed like wow this is really really cool and now there's like a bajillion data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=818s"},{"start_seconds":826,"text":"availability layer and everyone's like you know what what's Celestia like I mean like we know what it is but like nobody talks about it in the same way um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=826s"},{"start_seconds":835,"text":"so that's really hard I I do think the apps though probably have the biggest advantage and maybe maybe just to add on to that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=835s"},{"start_seconds":842,"text":"like what would be your best case scenario for what a successfully developed chain abstraction stack would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=842s"},{"start_seconds":849,"text":"enable from for a specific dat Builder to come in a given use case that you know you've been falling for a minute","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=849s"},{"start_seconds":857,"text":"explain what you mean by that so like when you say so so I think like yeah so so maybe just to go back like last cycle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=857s"},{"start_seconds":865,"text":"um everyone was saying we're going to build alt l1s that have the Capac to actually you know people to interact with dabs cheaply and quickly and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=865s"},{"start_seconds":873,"text":"they said oh now we have to bridge between the different l1s because it's clunky and composability matters and now we're kind of watching this new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=873s"},{"start_seconds":881,"text":"narrative emerge of the aggregation layer chain abstraction now that we have composability let's assume we get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=881s"},{"start_seconds":889,"text":"through some level of putting the pieces together what does that open up for this space as a whole and like you know when do we reach that product Market fit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=889s"},{"start_seconds":897,"text":"dream of you're going to be able ble to run your app and scale it up you know to a million users for a given industry so to speak well okay okay I think the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=897s"},{"start_seconds":906,"text":"first thing you're asking is like um maybe I'm wrong about what you're meaning by this but when I look at the market I look at again the Fast and the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=906s"},{"start_seconds":913,"text":"cheap that everyone was focused on I think that gets commone tized away nobody really cares about that I think at the end of the day we go full circle in the things that people actually care","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=913s"},{"start_seconds":921,"text":"about when it comes to chain abstraction or or like the elements that they're going to really focus on is everyone's going to be offering something cheap every everyone's going to be offering","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=921s"},{"start_seconds":930,"text":"something quick there might be some use cases where like there's some things that are really really quick or need like extra speed right that's where you look at things like salana where um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=930s"},{"start_seconds":938,"text":"maybe they are maybe there is like high frequency trading or something where it's like they need this extra speed but I think for the most part the most important elements in stack are going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=938s"},{"start_seconds":946,"text":"be security um and decentralization like the the like the ability to have property rights when I when I say decentralization I mean like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=946s"},{"start_seconds":954,"text":"permissionless property rights where you know if you build something on this it can never be rugged from you can never be taken away nobody's going to um be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=954s"},{"start_seconds":962,"text":"able to manipulate that in the future in the same way that like Amazon knew when they created a website on the internet that like nobody else was going to be able to take that away from them where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=962s"},{"start_seconds":971,"text":"if you built a website on Facebook um Facebook could change that on a whim so I think security and decentralization really are going to be the the most","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=971s"},{"start_seconds":979,"text":"important elements because like um I I think it's just more of a blip this idea of like speed and cheap transactions I think those things really don't matter","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=979s"},{"start_seconds":988,"text":"almost at all um and I think that's being proven out over the past year with everything kind of converging on that and pretty effortlessly it feels","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=988s"},{"start_seconds":997,"text":"like interesting yeah so I guess like in a world of chain abstraction we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=997s"},{"start_seconds":1004,"text":"always didn't think about like abstracting chained with like you know like modular in a sense that you build another blockchain that's like cheap and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1004s"},{"start_seconds":1012,"text":"easy to use I mean that's you know as you said like it's interesting but like it's becoming a bit of a almost as Ling","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1012s"},{"start_seconds":1019,"text":"l2s right now um the other primitive that I'm personally excited about is like the IG lir and like reaking as a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1019s"},{"start_seconds":1028,"text":"way to kind of build something uh verifiably um what's your take on reaking in general like how you know first time you encoun reaking because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1028s"},{"start_seconds":1037,"text":"that is chain abstraction basically you're abstracting ethereum and building like a pretty much verifiable Cloud um how do you think about it and and we can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1037s"},{"start_seconds":1045,"text":"we can deep dive into it as well like what's your what's your take as an investor uh sitting outside I think I think You' you have a bit of a different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1045s"},{"start_seconds":1053,"text":"lens than than as a builder of an abs2 like when I think of um igen Lair or reaking um the first thing I think of is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1053s"},{"start_seconds":1061,"text":"like the speed of innovation so when and and overall chain abstraction I think speed of innovation so what are you're enabling is you're enabling somebody to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1061s"},{"start_seconds":1069,"text":"launch a chain without having to worry about how to bootstrap their validator set right they could just tap straight into igir they don't have to worry about security they don't have to wor worry","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1069s"},{"start_seconds":1077,"text":"about a Val validator set so you're opening the door for a lot more people to try a lot more experiments and obviously some of those are going to be scams a lot of them are going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1077s"},{"start_seconds":1085,"text":"scams and just nonsense but because you're having more experimentation and people are able to get to Market a lot quicker you're going to figure out what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1085s"},{"start_seconds":1093,"text":"works and what doesn't a lot quicker and so that's like overall like with chain abstraction that's what I get excited about is it makes it really easy like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1093s"},{"start_seconds":1101,"text":"look at Layer Two is like everyone in their mom think it's off like Fox News is launching an L2 I thought that was a joke I literally thought it was like satire but it's real um you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1101s"},{"start_seconds":1109,"text":"everyone and their mom is launching l2s and all these weird experiments are happening and those things couldn't have happened like a couple years ago when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1109s"},{"start_seconds":1117,"text":"you like you had to bootstrap these things and build them from the ground up so I get really excited about that because I think we're going to we're going to reach wherever we're going a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1117s"},{"start_seconds":1125,"text":"lot quicker um and I also get really excited about the concept of um specialized l2s and I I think that's another thing that chain abstraction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1125s"},{"start_seconds":1133,"text":"heavily allows which is right now we have a lot of generalized chains like everything's like we're ethereum and we do everything um where I believe like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1133s"},{"start_seconds":1141,"text":"the value especially when these with these kind of Internet of chains is going to be in really hyper specialized chains like uh like I mentioned earlier","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1141s"},{"start_seconds":1149,"text":"like we're the ridiculously ridiculously fast chain like and because of that we enable things that you could never do on other things or you know we're a privacy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1149s"},{"start_seconds":1158,"text":"heavily privacy focused chain everything on this chain is fully private and so um I I think what you'll see is like certain apps will be built on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1158s"},{"start_seconds":1168,"text":"specialized ch chains and you'll actually see this weird environment where like somebody might be on chain a doing a transaction but they want it to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1168s"},{"start_seconds":1175,"text":"be private so they send it to chain B which is a privacy chain and then uh maybe they need it done really quick so they they route it through you know I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1175s"},{"start_seconds":1183,"text":"don't know chain C or whatever which is super fast I don't know you get the idea like it opens the door to all these kind of weird things that we've never had","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1183s"},{"start_seconds":1190,"text":"before and it's going to continue to evolve and grow and the experiments will continue to play out and um the faster these experiments play out the faster we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1190s"},{"start_seconds":1198,"text":"reach wherever we're going I think Kinto is a regulated kyc","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1198s"},{"start_seconds":1207,"text":"AML uh L2 that's kind of a great manifestation of the example you just gave we'll see I think they're they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1207s"},{"start_seconds":1214,"text":"still on testing or maybe they just went live but it definitely has the promise of bringing on some of these more Niche corporate solutions that you know they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1214s"},{"start_seconds":1221,"text":"won't touch on other ltf yeah um so you mentioned","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1221s"},{"start_seconds":1229,"text":"pump up one and you mentioned um a couple more apps as well um what makes you excited like gaming you mentioned","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1229s"},{"start_seconds":1236,"text":"gaming do you have other sort of exciting things that you know are like oh if the Builder listens to it because like there's a lot of people that listen to this they're like oh I want to build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1236s"},{"start_seconds":1244,"text":"on a chain abstracted world what does that mean like what would you want to see like as a as somebody who is you know looking into I know that you you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1244s"},{"start_seconds":1253,"text":"look into polygon a lot I know that that's from your like Twitter Persona um like what what do you want if you were a builder and if you had I don't know like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1253s"},{"start_seconds":1261,"text":"20 Builders down in you that's just like can build whatever you like to do what would have what would you have built that wasn't possible would I build on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1261s"},{"start_seconds":1268,"text":"like an environment like this where you had specialized chains and it was yeah specialized chains applications like let's just start with chains uh and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1268s"},{"start_seconds":1277,"text":"then let's just WR apps like when we say chains and then chain abstraction is like doesn't fit but like let's let's say what's possible really that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1277s"},{"start_seconds":1285,"text":"think is is quite unique uh that wasn't possible I think it's really hard to say I I think it's one of those things like you look at the uh predictions of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1285s"},{"start_seconds":1293,"text":"what the internet would be in the 1990s and they're like so off and people people didn't realize what the internet would be and it's almost like uh the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1293s"},{"start_seconds":1301,"text":"internet had a lot of these emergent properties where as it progressed people kind of figured out uh what it would be used for and what it use cases were and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1301s"},{"start_seconds":1309,"text":"before that a lot of people made fun of the internet and were like there's this really famous um uh clip of Bill Gates","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1309s"},{"start_seconds":1316,"text":"and Bill Gates is on a uh uh talk show and on the talk show the host is like asking him like so what's this internet thing and he's like well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1316s"},{"start_seconds":1325,"text":"on the internet I can listen to you can listen to a baseball game and then the host like is like yeah but I can do that on a radio and he like pulls out a radio","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1325s"},{"start_seconds":1333,"text":"and he's like well you can uh send an email to your friends he's like yeah but I could also do that with a piece of paper and they're basically just tearing apart the internet saying that like it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1333s"},{"start_seconds":1341,"text":"useless it's garbage and you know there's no point to it because you can already do these things you're finding a solution to problems that don't exist and it was hard for people to fathom","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1341s"},{"start_seconds":1349,"text":"back then what it would become because the pieces weren't fully there and I think the maybe the coolest thing about chain abstraction is like it really is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1349s"},{"start_seconds":1357,"text":"hard to predict what it will enable uh but you know it's going to enable things that we can't imagine today uh in the same way that the internet enabled","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1357s"},{"start_seconds":1365,"text":"things that we couldn't imagine back then um maybe it's the social media network of the future maybe it's like I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1365s"},{"start_seconds":1372,"text":"said um I think privacy is actually a huge problem in crypto I think it's huge vulnerability in the ethos of like you know we say it's censorship","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1372s"},{"start_seconds":1380,"text":"resistant but all the government would have to do would be like hey by the way can't hold crypto and oh yeah we can see all the crypto you're holding so um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1380s"},{"start_seconds":1388,"text":"that's actually a huge uh flaw because they could you know if if you had a tyrannical government that's like you know really bad and you wanted to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1388s"},{"start_seconds":1395,"text":"hold your crypto and they could track every movement you make well there's no point into crypto so I think privacy is a huge thing um I think once you have privacy you can have like private","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1395s"},{"start_seconds":1404,"text":"information on chain so um uh like health records Etc maybe there's a use case with that and Ai and truth and some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1404s"},{"start_seconds":1413,"text":"of these problems that we're dealing with in in the real world uh around those things um voting maybe even I I I don't know it it's really hard for me to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1413s"},{"start_seconds":1421,"text":"imagine I just know that it it it pushes the forward the speed of innovation and with that you're going to get a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1421s"},{"start_seconds":1429,"text":"experimentation and experimentation eventually yield something useful period and we just have so much money in the crypto space that like we have so much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1429s"},{"start_seconds":1437,"text":"room to experiment I see makes sense I was wondering Jesse on on that topic um how do you see the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1437s"},{"start_seconds":1446,"text":"user experience evolving with uh you know from a higher Development Across you know different l2s and you know the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1446s"},{"start_seconds":1455,"text":"overall chain abstraction stack well you have things like rabi wallet right which I remember I used to have to switch between networks I never even think about that because rabby wallet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1455s"},{"start_seconds":1463,"text":"automatically does it but then we have these other wallets and uh things that are like abstracting that further where like the the user doesn't even um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1463s"},{"start_seconds":1472,"text":"doesn't have to think about these things so I think that's probably where we're going I don't think we're going to have things like you know right now you have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1472s"},{"start_seconds":1479,"text":"Argent wallet for Stark and then you have um phantom for salana and Etc there'll always be like the niche ones","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1479s"},{"start_seconds":1486,"text":"that you do need I think a wallet for um but if I remember back in 2017 you need a wallet for everything like every single chain I remember I had like 20","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1486s"},{"start_seconds":1494,"text":"different wallets for like literally everything and now it's like metam ask rabby pretty much you know does it for you and you don't you know phantom for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1494s"},{"start_seconds":1503,"text":"salana ETC so I think that'll continue to get abstracted away and it'll get easier and easier for the end user like if you look at crypto gaming um a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1503s"},{"start_seconds":1510,"text":"these like crypto gaming games they don't the the end user doesn't even know they're using crypto they genuinely like have no idea what's going in crypto space they just get to own the assets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1510s"},{"start_seconds":1519,"text":"they earn in the game it's like in fortnite when you uh buy a skin you just now have the ability to go resell it somewhere and and they don't know that they're actually using crypto because it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1519s"},{"start_seconds":1528,"text":"the it it makes it super easy for them and the idea is like the more advanced users will go off in self- custody in a wallet Etc and so I think um I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1528s"},{"start_seconds":1537,"text":"maybe initially it'll get more difficult but I think in the long run it'll be way simpler than what we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1537s"},{"start_seconds":1545,"text":"today so train abstraction like you get into a space where you know you're not think about the wallets and the network uh that you're on how do you feel about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1545s"},{"start_seconds":1554,"text":"Security in the space right I mean let's say you go to different l2s and l1s you don't know their security assumptions of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1554s"},{"start_seconds":1562,"text":"that L2 um what should one do to kind of like okay let's just these problems are solved you don't have to think about the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1562s"},{"start_seconds":1570,"text":"wallet you don't have to think about the bridge but you're also making it very important distinction between because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1570s"},{"start_seconds":1577,"text":"you know all the crypto systems are based on some some security assumptions right how how should like one kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1577s"},{"start_seconds":1584,"text":"maneuver into space I mean right now you have to go to resources like l beat Etc to like go look at like um I think they've done a really good job of saying","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1584s"},{"start_seconds":1592,"text":"hey uh especially on l2b you could look at an L2 and you can say hey here's the risk factors here's how they could steal the liquidity here's how they could push","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1592s"},{"start_seconds":1600,"text":"an update and U cut you off Etc so they've done a good job explaining that and I would just hope that in the as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1600s"},{"start_seconds":1607,"text":"things expand um wallets would continue to do things like that right like even now W um wallets like metamask in the past when you would do a transaction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1607s"},{"start_seconds":1615,"text":"that was draining your wallet it wouldn't even tell you would it wouldn't make it human readable and newer wallets are human readable it'll be like hey by the way this is going to train your wallet is are you sure you want to do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1615s"},{"start_seconds":1623,"text":"this and so I think in the future it'd be like hey you're moving to a chain that has a you know pretty high risks are you sure you want to do this and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1623s"},{"start_seconds":1632,"text":"think that'll be abstracted to the wallets and um you you you put a lot of trust in those wallets but again I I think it's one of those things where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1632s"},{"start_seconds":1639,"text":"like the social lirer is able to kind of keep an eye on that right if a wallet's being weird about that I think something like the social a be able to catch that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1639s"},{"start_seconds":1648,"text":"interesting so a user experience of and I was thinking about this myself so user experience of like hey you know you're about to jump onto a new L3 here are the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1648s"},{"start_seconds":1657,"text":"risks the data is provided by al2 beat and maybe data is actually confirmed by some operators let's say on igir everybody tested it and say hey you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1657s"},{"start_seconds":1666,"text":"should not jump into this place because XYZ and maybe even like a user experience where you go in and say hey","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1666s"},{"start_seconds":1673,"text":"if these are the you know just literally a toggle maybe and you say hey if the these corre of a new chain is it I don't want that to happen I don't want to sign","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1673s"},{"start_seconds":1681,"text":"any transaction like is that where we going like it's basically it's an abstraction on top but like you know it's way way more useful for the you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1681s"},{"start_seconds":1688,"text":"know I think so and I think it's one of those things that like the way you learn and the way the open markets function is like they they function by by learning","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1688s"},{"start_seconds":1696,"text":"through pain right like so stable coins took a huge leap forward because of Luna and the collapse that happened um every","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1696s"},{"start_seconds":1704,"text":"hack that we have helps make the space more secure because we learn lessons from the those things and so when we have the First Data availability layer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1704s"},{"start_seconds":1711,"text":"fail or we have the first like L2 that just outright scams people happen like people will come up with solutions to these problems the market will take note","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1711s"},{"start_seconds":1719,"text":"and be like oo I need to be more cautious so because they're being more cautious about what l2s are using certain l2s will try to differentiate themselves and show how they're safe and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1719s"},{"start_seconds":1728,"text":"certain wallets will want to attract users to be like hey we help you find which ones are safe so you don't have whatever happened with that one happen and so I think the market just again it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1728s"},{"start_seconds":1736,"text":"kind of evolves like that with like a trial and air and uh I think that's I think failure and the error part is actually a really important part of uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1736s"},{"start_seconds":1745,"text":"markets growing and evolving into what they're you know becoming okay yeah that's that's cool that thanks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1745s"},{"start_seconds":1754,"text":"for sharing that um I'll take this a bit of a different perspective so uh in this podcast we had obviously started with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1754s"},{"start_seconds":1761,"text":"Ilia right IIA is pretty technical talks about near you know like pretty pretty good figure for me and a good Mentor for me myself and then that was Zaki you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1761s"},{"start_seconds":1769,"text":"know as a cosmos IBC we had Erica which was like she talked about like how do you build a community and chain abstracted world right like how do you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1769s"},{"start_seconds":1777,"text":"kind of build these like almost like a bridge for for communities right um and for your background I guess like you have a different youve started with I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1777s"},{"start_seconds":1784,"text":"guess uh wedding videography to ended up like you know um you know being being almost like an investor but also like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1784s"},{"start_seconds":1791,"text":"running in doing your own research through the podcast you do right so um how would you recommend for folks like you know there might be some folks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1791s"},{"start_seconds":1800,"text":"listening to this be like I'm really new to crypto like I don't know what to do here like for me it's technical right and do you think like first how do they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1800s"},{"start_seconds":1807,"text":"contribute second does chain abstraction really help uh help that world where there's more people that can contribute to crypto than used I would say","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1807s"},{"start_seconds":1816,"text":"definitely it helps more people contribute because the more it's abstracted um for example like I mentioned earlier any like I could go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1816s"},{"start_seconds":1823,"text":"launch an L2 today if I wanted to I could literally go launch an L2 but wouldn't have the expertise to have launched a chain a couple years ago why","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1823s"},{"start_seconds":1831,"text":"would I launch an L2 like I don't have a good reason but maybe there's someone out there that comes up with a reason for an individual to launch an L2 that actually makes a lot of sense that no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1831s"},{"start_seconds":1839,"text":"one else would have thought of before um that will that will push the space forward so I think yeah it definitely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1839s"},{"start_seconds":1846,"text":"opens the door for more people to um get involved in the space but also like you know where somebody maybe couldn't tackle the whole problem of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1846s"},{"start_seconds":1854,"text":"building an entire blockchain from the ground up maybe they some entrepreneur does come along and say hey um it kind of sucks how we get hacked like all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1854s"},{"start_seconds":1862,"text":"these apps get hacked like we say we have these secure chains right all these apps on top of the chains keeping me hacked I have a solution for that has nothing to do with crypto necessarily","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1862s"},{"start_seconds":1870,"text":"but if we were to implement this you know feature maybe it's a feature in a wallet Etc I don't know um we can solve that um it opens the door for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1870s"},{"start_seconds":1879,"text":"interesting Solutions I think like that if you were to come to crypto right now how would you contribute would you do the same thing um like the same thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1879s"},{"start_seconds":1887,"text":"you do or or like any advice in someone any advice in someone that comes in doesn't have the skill sets of of technicality how I think if you get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1887s"},{"start_seconds":1895,"text":"involved in the space um like basic education is a really great way to contribute what I've noticed in crypto I think it's a huge problem is like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1895s"},{"start_seconds":1903,"text":"there's like the core of crypto which really understands the space and maybe values it and then there's like and maybe that makes up like 3% of crypto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1903s"},{"start_seconds":1912,"text":"and then there's like everyone else and especially when you're talking about a bull market like it becomes really mercenary um really bad things maybe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1912s"},{"start_seconds":1920,"text":"rice to the top um a lot of scams a lot of ponies and people don't know any better they don't know any difference between hex hex's pulse chain in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1920s"},{"start_seconds":1927,"text":"ethereum like genuinely if you go talk to an average person they'll say yeah pulse chain and ethereum that's like they're just as good right in their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1927s"},{"start_seconds":1934,"text":"brain like that makes sense and so education value like people that actually have values and just morals on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1934s"},{"start_seconds":1942,"text":"some level can bring a lot to the space in even very basic education like how do you use a wallet how do you get on chain um how do you avoid scams things like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1942s"},{"start_seconds":1950,"text":"that uh I I I would say we could use thousands and thousands upon or thousands of new Educators in the space to help people on board get started and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1950s"},{"start_seconds":1959,"text":"get going even if it's just helping your friends out helping them get started if you were to advise an L1 Foundation today in a you know increasingly modular","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1959s"},{"start_seconds":1968,"text":"environment how to stay relevant or how to attract Builders what would your advice be to the l1s out there that are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1968s"},{"start_seconds":1975,"text":"either from the 2020 cycle or recently deployed to stay relevant in this in this new environment even 2017 cycle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1975s"},{"start_seconds":1983,"text":"yeah even I think it really is you got to get a killer app on board it's the same thing as like uh if you look at like the console Wars even though it's a lot different like Xbox versus","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1983s"},{"start_seconds":1992,"text":"PlayStation like the way that one would gain an edge over the other would be like they have a exclusive IP right they have some sort of Ip that attracts people to go buy that console they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=1992s"},{"start_seconds":2000,"text":"like oh I want to play Halo or um I want to play the Spider-Man games or whatever and so in the same way with uh chains","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2000s"},{"start_seconds":2007,"text":"like you need useful apps that like that's the place that people go go and get that app and that's kind of hard to do today because there's so many people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2007s"},{"start_seconds":2014,"text":"fighting for attention and there's so many of these l2s that have all these incentives to like pull people over there so I'd say it's really difficult","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2014s"},{"start_seconds":2021,"text":"to be a an L1 especially a generalized L1 uh today in this environment and it actually makes a lot more sense for most","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2021s"},{"start_seconds":2029,"text":"people to be some sort of L2 like you're you're going to start off more profitable um especially as we start to build these super networks like you'll","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2029s"},{"start_seconds":2036,"text":"be able to connect in to other uh chains with their liquidity their users and that's able to move over a lot easier and I think it's going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2036s"},{"start_seconds":2044,"text":"increasingly more difficult for a new L1 to start and you're going to you're going to have trouble finding a good reason other than we need to pump a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2044s"},{"start_seconds":2052,"text":"token up and make a lot of money which is if people are being honest that's why a lot of these all l1s do get launched is primarily it's not about tech it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2052s"},{"start_seconds":2060,"text":"really hey we're going to throw this our own unique spin on ethereum we're going to launch a token and we're going to make a lot of money and that's really the problem with the space is like we a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2060s"},{"start_seconds":2069,"text":"lot of people have lost sight of like let's Advance forward the space and it's about uh token launch and you know seeing how much money they can make from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2069s"},{"start_seconds":2079,"text":"that cool yeah uh I'm gonna twist this again so when I did the podcast with you last time one of the things that stroke","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2079s"},{"start_seconds":2087,"text":"me was curiosity like basically like asking and going deeper and I've done a lot of podcasts I'm not just saying like I was doing less started doing more now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2087s"},{"start_seconds":2096,"text":"um how could one build that in crypto how could one build that muscle of like hey you know I think a lot of folks just read crypto Twitter and you know they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2096s"},{"start_seconds":2105,"text":"they believe in things that they they see how could build that like just go deeper and deeper and and what's your like mental model to get that and does","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2105s"},{"start_seconds":2113,"text":"chain abstraction change that kind of um kind of world model I think what got me down that pipeline is I I started off","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2113s"},{"start_seconds":2121,"text":"coming the space I want to make money and then um I decided I'd be a lot better investor if I learned more and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2121s"},{"start_seconds":2128,"text":"had I'd have Edge because I understood more of this base than uh maybe the average participant and then the more I started to understand the space the more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2128s"},{"start_seconds":2137,"text":"certain ideas I'd be like that's a good idea oh wow I see what that could enable and I started to think forward in the future like maybe where the space might","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2137s"},{"start_seconds":2144,"text":"go and then in thinking where the space might go it kind of started to fascinate me of like oh wow this this whole idea of like open finance is really cool like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2144s"},{"start_seconds":2152,"text":"uh you know governments have controlled the financial systems of the world for like all time what if we had a like an internet like layer where it was just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2152s"},{"start_seconds":2160,"text":"anyone could tap into and what would be the Imp implications of that and like is this Tech actually valuable that's especially in a fair market that's something you ask yourself like is this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2160s"},{"start_seconds":2168,"text":"all just ponies and useful useless Tech or are we actually building something valuable and so um all those things Plus","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2168s"},{"start_seconds":2176,"text":"getting burned on certain things is what really got me interested in the space and like wanting to go deeper and like start understanding it and learning it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2176s"},{"start_seconds":2183,"text":"and then I guess I would say that I'm like naturally a a curious person and just like to like to learn but I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2183s"},{"start_seconds":2191,"text":"crypto uniquely is like cryp in the same way that people are really stoked about Ai and how it's going to change the world which that's nuts it's it's going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2191s"},{"start_seconds":2199,"text":"to change the world the next like seven years the world's going to change more than I think the last like 700 it's going to get crazy but in the same way","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2199s"},{"start_seconds":2208,"text":"crypto if you really look at it from first principles enables some really world changing things that uh it's hard to understand the implications of but I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2208s"},{"start_seconds":2216,"text":"think one of the biggest ones is when governments can freely print as unlimited amounts of money to fund Wars and like endless government expansion","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2216s"},{"start_seconds":2224,"text":"like that traditionally really hurts the individual of that country right like they don't they don't typically serve the individuals of that country uh in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2224s"},{"start_seconds":2232,"text":"the capacity that they're meant to the capacity they're meant to and where it comes from is this idea that like you know if you have a bunch of people that are coordinating together through a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2232s"},{"start_seconds":2240,"text":"central figure um that they're more powerful than a bunch of people that are not coordinating together so the coordinating group if it went to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2240s"},{"start_seconds":2247,"text":"group that wasn't coordinating typically just takes all their stuff and like you know I don't know enslaves them or something um and that's kind of historically how it's played out but the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2247s"},{"start_seconds":2256,"text":"T typically That central figure uh that's like the the coordination mechanism becomes corrupted and they serve themselves and they do a bunch of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2256s"},{"start_seconds":2263,"text":"bad stuff and then you know when they get the supply of money it's just too much power like they're going to print unlimited amounts of money and it and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2263s"},{"start_seconds":2271,"text":"like it creates a financial Environ if you think of a a country sort of like soil it creates really unhealthy soil for for like entrepreneurship to grow up","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2271s"},{"start_seconds":2279,"text":"in and so I get really excited thinking about this idea of like all these third world countries which probably going to be the first people to really tap into crypto and the idea of like them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2279s"},{"start_seconds":2288,"text":"building this fertile soil where like entrepreneurship can Thrive and their people can Thrive and like the implications of how that's going to change the world and when you take that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2288s"},{"start_seconds":2296,"text":"money away from the governments they're going to have to be a lot more frugal look look at the scale of Wars the the scale of Wars is going to have to be reduced because they're not going to have unlimited budgets to fight you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2296s"},{"start_seconds":2305,"text":"endless Wars so I just really see civilization as a whole really turning on on this point of open finance and I think it's actually a huge good for for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2305s"},{"start_seconds":2313,"text":"the world and and it is going to have massive implications and that's really I guess maybe what got me down that rabbit hole thinking like wow this is going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2313s"},{"start_seconds":2322,"text":"change everything but as far as like chain abstraction and how that could get people curious um chain abstraction opens up crypto I think to a lot more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2322s"},{"start_seconds":2330,"text":"things than just Finance in the sense that because it's enabling all this experimentation you are naturally going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2330s"},{"start_seconds":2337,"text":"to get people trying like really stupid things that seem stupid but they could actually be genius and end up opening up these entire new world of use cases for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2337s"},{"start_seconds":2345,"text":"crypto and so it it should just get you excited from the sheer fact of like it opens the door to millions of more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2345s"},{"start_seconds":2353,"text":"experiments and we don't know which ones of those are going to work and which ones of those are going to fail um but we could get some really interesting use","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2353s"},{"start_seconds":2360,"text":"cases out of crypto that we never even imagined kind of maybe feed that like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2360s"},{"start_seconds":2367,"text":"you know people talk about privacy onchain identity onchain governance onchain even like social community on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2367s"},{"start_seconds":2374,"text":"chain maybe from those in reference to that kind of social Paradigm you've presented where would you like to see","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2374s"},{"start_seconds":2381,"text":"more experimentation Innovation or investment between some of those categories","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2381s"},{"start_seconds":2389,"text":"experimentation I would say oh I've already mentioned privacy so I'll say privacy um but I would say uh G we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2389s"},{"start_seconds":2397,"text":"a ton of experiments going on gaming I'm just I guess waiting for those to take off um outside of that social is really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2397s"},{"start_seconds":2404,"text":"interesting I think there's a lot with it feels like even though so far like 100% it feels like of the experiments","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2404s"},{"start_seconds":2412,"text":"have been scams it feels like there really is something around tokenizing attention and the idea of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2412s"},{"start_seconds":2419,"text":"celebrities and creators and there is something there because I know on the Creator side and I think you'd be shocked how many musicians Etc they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2419s"},{"start_seconds":2427,"text":"don't make as much money as you think even some of these creators I know creators that have like 10 million followers and they're Liv they're like making two grand a month and so it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2427s"},{"start_seconds":2436,"text":"there's got to be a way to tokenize attention and right now it's like meme coins and kind of like shady stuff it doesn't work right but I think there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2436s"},{"start_seconds":2444,"text":"there's something there that we haven't quite figured out that's going to make a lot more sense that's going to allow maybe imagine you're like one of the first followers Mr Beast and the Mr","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2444s"},{"start_seconds":2452,"text":"Beast rises to fame well you kind of contributed to that in a way right as a supporter follower watching the videos Etc and imagine you could like bet or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2452s"},{"start_seconds":2460,"text":"invest into Mr Beast early on in that brand and kind of rise with it and I think there's a world and an outcome","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2460s"},{"start_seconds":2467,"text":"where that happens and makes sense I just don't know exactly what it's going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2467s"},{"start_seconds":2475,"text":"be interesting okay um I think let's let's closely wrap it up uh what what you want like people to know about about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2475s"},{"start_seconds":2484,"text":"you and um chain abstraction anything that you we probably sort of like forgot to ask you that do you'd like to share","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2484s"},{"start_seconds":2492,"text":"with anybody that can watch this from like near I know that people watch from anywhere like getting more and more people asking about us um yeah like what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2492s"},{"start_seconds":2500,"text":"would be one thing that uh you'd love to share with folks that's that's like a really broad question um one thing I guess I I guess","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2500s"},{"start_seconds":2509,"text":"it's the same message I feel like a lot of other people are are sharing and but I I really feel strongly about it and that's that um we are moving in crypto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2509s"},{"start_seconds":2517,"text":"away from the infra Wars and into the Super Network and app Wars and I think anyone right now who's like thinking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2517s"},{"start_seconds":2525,"text":"they're going to launch the the next best generalized L2 if they're thinking you know it's all about these VC raises Etc I I think you're missing the point I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2525s"},{"start_seconds":2534,"text":"really think like look at all these chains that like launched and they they raised bun money but now they're dead like there's so many ghost chains that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2534s"},{"start_seconds":2542,"text":"insane like so many and so if you really want to build something that lasts you're going to have to put in the hard hard work and actually build like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2542s"},{"start_seconds":2549,"text":"valuable app you can't just like Fork some code and like hope to make millions and millions of dollars and that's as it should be and so I don't know I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2549s"},{"start_seconds":2557,"text":"encourage people to I guess solve harder problems and uh and focus their attention on things that like really are solving a problem for some sort of end","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2557s"},{"start_seconds":2565,"text":"user and bringing value to the space and on top of that I think one of the biggest mistakes being made in the crypto space right now today is this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2565s"},{"start_seconds":2574,"text":"move away from um embracing seeing like the the open network of users and like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2574s"},{"start_seconds":2580,"text":"going straight to VCS and the reason is is like you're seeing so many of these projects that they're raising a ton of capital from BCS they're launching at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2580s"},{"start_seconds":2588,"text":"multi-billion Dollar valuations and then um you know users don't have a chance to like get in early there's no Community built there's no Allegiance built and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2588s"},{"start_seconds":2596,"text":"it's basically down only and so you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot by the time you're like your funds get unlocked you're like you're not going to have that much capital and uh nobody's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2596s"},{"start_seconds":2604,"text":"going to want to like invest in a project that's been down down only or the charts down only and you know the the best projects are the ones that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2604s"},{"start_seconds":2611,"text":"start off really small really Frugal you don't need to raise that much Capital like some of these l2s they're lit just like forking code some of these l2s are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2611s"},{"start_seconds":2620,"text":"raising like hundreds of millions of dollars and it's like man you could probably do like a million dollar raise and you'd be good and then launch it a super super low valuation and let the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2620s"},{"start_seconds":2629,"text":"market organically carry you up let users get involved because those same users are going to come support your network they're going to come attract Builders they're going to bring mind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2629s"},{"start_seconds":2638,"text":"share and attention you need to do the take the hard path not the easy path because the easy path has maybe um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2638s"},{"start_seconds":2646,"text":"vanity metric success on paper it looks good for a little bit look at I I don't want to make fun of Celestia but look at Celestia's you know huge rise they took","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2646s"},{"start_seconds":2655,"text":"over the space and then ma massive decline in attention and so you want to do the hard work actually um organically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2655s"},{"start_seconds":2662,"text":"grow attract real apps build real apps that is the path forward for the crypto space and that is always the way you're going to succeed shortcuts in the long","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2662s"},{"start_seconds":2670,"text":"run will eventually fail you awesome thanks for sharing that man well thanks for being part of this uh I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2670s"},{"start_seconds":2678,"text":"know that we've been trying to sort of host this for a while but uh it was it was really nice to chat with you this was aome","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U&t=2678s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=NTbtYgKK_7U","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/NTbtYgKK_7U"}