{"id":"MwqUVbV7N1s","title":"Expert Panel on Multi-chain Protocols | LIVE","description":"Join us for the expert panel discussion on multi-chain Protocols — Ethereum, Polkadot, Cosmos and NEAR. \n\nOn the panel: \n\nJustin Drake from Ethereum Foundation \nAlistair Stewart from Web3 Foundation, Polkadot Network \nZaki Manian from Tendermint Labs, Cosmos\nAlex Skidanov from NEAR Protocol\n\n\n\n\n\n#FutureIsNEAR #Blockchain #Protocol","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2019-04-29T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/MwqUVbV7N1s/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"awesome okay so let's start so this is our Tamir this is going to be a panel on on protocols that try to have some sort of communication between multiple chains we have three panelists here well I guess four panels including me and we have Zaki from cosmos and tender milk labs we have Justin from a theorem and Alastair from from polka dot and with the foundation and can you guys give a quick introduction about yourselves and maybe say a few words about the protocol and especially about the the intended use case or intended goal of the protocol and we can start with Zaki okay Simonian I work at tender mint I've been involved in the cosmos projects basically since it was first conceived and like more broadly I've been in the in the blockchain sharding community for a very long time I've been thinking about starting ideas for a very long time cosmos like for just quickly is like very much came out of like my desire to build a to approach starting from a different direction from what it seemed like everyone else was which is start with very minimal assumptions about how different components in the system are able to trust each other and offer uniform security and then and build an integrated system from that and then and then you know explore all of these different charting ideas over time so that's what cosmos is cosmos is basically a unified or you know connected world of watching applications where each chain is its own sovereign independently secure entity justin research team and specifically working on 2.0 you know shouting and the data problem was what got me started in the research space so it's quite my heart I mean now I work on on all aspects of FM 2.0 but still very much interested in sharding technologies and designs and trade offs I guess in terms of what the goal for from 2.0 is you try and be a scalable platform for for small contracts I guess and buy scalable you know we want to try and push the limits as to what is possible at the at layer 1 in terms of providing kind of a very secure and and homogeneous base layer and in terms of scalability we're looking to have you know a thousand shards which you can think of roughly as a thousand copies of if you're in 1.0 which roughly have the the same kind of security guarantees as from one who know today and then if you need more scalability on top of that then that's where the the application layer comes in the layer 2 scalability solutions and you know if pyramid is known to unlock these these kind of things and was a pioneer there you know with with the EVM being a very generic and flexible platform Alastair ok I miss you Tony that there he'll computer scientist by trade I'm at the web 3 foundation now and I'm working polka dots so polka dots has the idea that we wanted lots of different changes lots of different state machines on top of a sort of common abstraction with the idea that it should all be one system so I think a talk to each other everything should have it as a single security model oh okay and so the first interesting question is as two questions in one so one question is one for each of the protocols right for cosmos aetherium and polka dot the user when they interact with the with the protocol do they interact with the protocol as a whole or do they interact with particular zones para chained or shorts and from there the second question on top of that immediately is how what how is the security of each hard zone of origin is ensured and how and so in in all protocols are valid it is right how they selected for each of the zones and I guess we can go at the same word right psyche are you muted am i meeting myself I have a little bit of a coughs I've been meeting myself the said the okay so cosmos very simple answers to those questions every zone users generally interact with zones one at a time you know they may engage in cross zone behavior it may be eventually possible it may eventually be the case that that you know people we build higher level abstractions over multiple zones but currently what is mostly contemplating is interacting with one zone at a time so then the second question was about security and validator sets in general zones choose their own validator sets and while we think that there will be sort of economies of scale here where I think the term Julian used is like famous validators and there will be well you know a highly overlapped group of validator Zhaan's on a large number of chains there's nothing in the protocol that requires it or assumes that that is true well Justin yeah so I used to stepping back to the way I think about it is that in terms of interacting with the the the wider system next track where your press is interacting with a specific part of the system the the latter is strictly more powerful so you can do one with the other but not the other way around so you know we want to expose to dab developers the the most powerful primitive which is to interact with a specific shot but then of course nothing prevents you to put the end user from a user experience standpoint if you you wish to be abstracted away and you do wish to interact with multiple shots and then you can totally do that one of the things maybe worth mentioning at the execution layer you know each shot will have its own separate EVM but nothing prevents you from kind of merging the data availability layers of the of the shots so you can have an alternative execution engine which basically combines let's say four different shots and then you have your that's one way of attracting but you can also of course abstract kind of using the DVM as one of your your building blocks and you abstract away for example the notion of a cross drug transaction away from the user in terms of our security model you know every shard is is homogeneous and we kind of want to have this massive pool of security that is bootstrapped from the existing if you're a microsystem so you know we have over ten billion dollars of the of tokens and we want to make use of that so we're hoping to have you know hundreds of thousands maybe even close to million validators staking into this one huge pool and then we want to have a smart mechanism of yielding every single individual shard basically the same roughly the same security as the big pool and we we do that using statistically representative sampling of committees so in terms of the details of a security model it's mostly just an honesty assumption on the big pool of validators but and that's a very subjective question but when you think of a theme do you think of it as a like a single protocol consists of multiple charts or do you think of it more as like multiple independent blog chains which happen to be homogeneous and unfair security so you kick the difference it starts what can you repeat the difference right so it's more it's really the way I think about the theorem versus let's say cosmos right is that causes in cosmos did this is a very differentiated right and clearly in interact with the zone so I'm cursive when I think of a theorem for me at the end 2.0 it's more of a single protocol which just happens to be shorted but from your answer it seems like the way you look at it is more like multiple independent shards right where people clearly understand so I guess like the question is as a developer when I deploy a smart contract presumably they could liquid way to think about it right one way I'm thinking when I'm deploying a smart contract is I'm deploying it to a theme 2.0 and another way of thinking it is I'm deploying it to specific charter with um two point all right so what model do you think developers will mostly have oh it's C okay so from the point of view of of a designer basically what I do a different foundation there's a single protocol and it's very clean and unified and and and simple and you know we don't try and have special cases which would complex things but from the point of view of a deaf developer you know you there will be you know you will have some sort of a preference as to choosing one shot or neither one consideration is that within a single shot you will have synchronous can cross contract calls whereas across shards at least in the default evm you will have a synchronous calls and so if you want to do some synchronous calls with a very specific contract let's say you're building on top of crypto kitties and you know you want to be in the same JavaScript or kidneys the other consideration beyond proximity to other contracts will be the gas market so every single shot will have a different gas market and you know some might be higher price than others because they're more popular and so if you have the luxury of choosing your chard because you have a adapt which is more decoupled from than others then you're gonna want to favor the the cheaper shots I guess one thing which kind of goes against this idea that every shot is special and you want to choose the best one is that you can totally have the notion of yanking so at the application layer at least you can have the option of having logic which allows you to hop from one shot to another and so you're not necessarily tied to one shot and so and from that point of view you go back more to the designers point of view where everything is homogeneous and fundable so I just wanted to jump in and comment and I want to say that like the goal of having this uniform interface across many chains is is I think like one of the most appealing things in boxing's it's like you know I've been you know I think I've been talking about it for five years at this point it's it sort of been I think I'm it's like one of the most exciting visions it's also probably the most technically hard to achieve and I definitely don't feel like to know how to design a system that full week manifests that vision okay Alistair the same question or a chance or the relation and like few words about this right yeah so the principles that the user mostly is interacting with the prowl change and as much as the security as possible is there is a function of the entire bio dataset to be no change so agenda there being a thousand tightest starting up may have maybe 100 maybe looking that we've scaled it to more than 1,000 and where possible they get to decide the security we're going to divide them into sort of small committees to do with each hurricane but ultimately they're going to be ways bypassing that if one of these committees don't that'd be bad because they're so small each individual para chain and it has its own set of colitis sort of by default you only need to be have a security but let the censorship resistance and not for the security of the things we care about but para chains can be different and some of them can some of them will need their own security and and the co-leaders para chains choose quality of themselves right yes so that would be close to the concept of validators and cosmos right which are also chosen to make a zone well yes except that they know that there is so much less mm-hmm yes notionally co-leaders are only responsible for transaction ordering yes right yes we definitely need collisions potential resistance but if unless the the project has its own consensus the security should be to the county panic the products the religion I can't hear Alex yeah yeah you hear me now yes okay so the question was the number of validators in each party and at each given moment is on the order of five right so so what happens when they all corrupted was attended right what happened over up to eleven we have to rely on some actor pointed out so that the separate things for validity and at availability which we might be getting onto yeah but the basic idea for validity is that some fishermen could come along and point out this thing is wrong and back that's hapless take and if that happens then other random people go and check it and when there's a disagreement we can everyone checks it and we can splash up well we just left them all this debt problem mm-hm start talking about what can go wrong and and how to defend against it and we can start with with both other since we we just started talking about fishermen right so there are few things that can go wrong right if the if the validators that are assigned to a particular forage any corrupted they can in principle attempt to fork to create invalid state transition and do with all the blocks right so well they come yeah the food reason should be defined that the invalid state condition is the problem well I did this worse this other things I can do so there's the date availability there's a Claytor and some validators can collude to not tell the other other really the other actors in the same chain what happens so we have this issue that we don't have so if you're an individual trained and it has its own security then you know you produce a block and it's in your interest to make sure that everyone else knows this block for something like Bitcoin right but if some other chain is responsible for deciding the consensus what happens then there's no reason why it should give you the data at all so we have to make just for the purposes of the panel and for the wider audience I want to kind of like zoom out and explain the data availability problem a little bit because probably for the four of us we all have know exactly what we mean but I would say the larger audience probably has no eyes there's definitely keep in the audience you don't know so can I take a shot at it okay I'm this is mostly just a quick summary of Joseph beans talk on data availability so one of the things that is is is most intriguing about Bitcoin and proof of and proof of work consensus is that it gave us not necessarily strong guarantees but reasonably good guarantees about data availability and what data availability means is that the blocks that are being generated are actually available that you can download them from the internet and what would be the problem if the data was not available is for instance you could no one would be able only the people who had the data was available would be able to spend money and one of the manifestations of attacks on data availability in proof-of-work cryptocurrency is is the selfish mining problem where you mind blocks but you don't need them available and the and this is mostly intact on the incentive systems but as we build these more complicated systems the attacks get worse if you can if you can produce blocks and make them unavailable so and basically the assumption of proof of work in proof of work is that you're not broadcasting your blocks and you control less than 51 percent of the 50 plus 1 percent of them of the half power mining the people the miners who are honestly broadcasting their box will eventually produce a longer chain and the data unavailable chain will not be canonical so this is like a really exciting and clever property of of proof-of-work you know there's like a massive literature around consensus and distributed systems that goes back 40 years but like the literature around or the study of this problem of how do you actually ensure in a distributed system that the data is available is is relatively interesting and new and is like a research frontier so you know cosmos we we explicitly punt on the data availability problem and attempt to design a system that doesn't solve it and one of the things that's most interesting about the systems that the Alistar and Justin are building is that they explicitly need to solve this problem in order to further their systems to be severe so Alistair would you like to give over your power welcome to solving it right so one of the simplest ways of solving this so you have this problem that there's too much data for everyone to hold yeah we'd like to know but enormous majority to be able to be sure that they have almost data and I want solution to that is there's a rating coding idea what we do is we have this data and we give a little piece of everything's have data to everyone such that we can then go if you have enough people we can be constructive and so so we sort of apply that with the the real a chain validated so each of those gets a piece of e to the power 10 blocks and then we know that if we ever find them lie something it must be because you're at least well 2/3 of people are gonna burger it and end some visiting agreement and this means if you know if two-thirds of those were honest then one-third of people should have had all these pieces and we set things up so that they can be a simple everything of course then the question is is when do they render someone we assemble and that's that's the hard and basically if people say something's missing we have to have random people tempt you to be Simplot and ask her out and once you've solved availability then yeah then getting someone point absolutely correct it's the easier problem and so in poker that the primer assumption is that every party and someone cares about right and so there's at least one person who is validating all the blocks and there and so yeah so that there should be someone change if someone is fisherman check me I'll be poaching and we'd also like the idea would be you know all these perishing to public and we could also trust a majority of people who produced ability of the collectors as well but we want something but holds you know with different levels of certainty depending on how many of these sets are honest and why so you've started by saying that Forks are completely impossible so what is preventing force from happening oh well udon I didn't tell you that folks so let's say that the really Kate folks but at SFO state of the real a chain determines the project I say so the VHA block determines what all the projects are so only the real a can can fork right so effectively the the part of chains the fortress rule would always favor the the last block which was snaps added to the part of chain to the elite chain right yeah well the the real they change the deterministic version yeah by having this basically the hashes of parish a lot still doing a check and that's what determines what's hot right and so what the partition could be a little bit the head of the relation right as a user of the power chain shall I shall I not respect those blocks until I see them on the relation or well you can but even if you see them on the real a chain that doesn't mean that they're final yet mm-hmm when something's finalized on the way they chain is finalized Thanks well yeah so suggestion the same set of things is how how is a theorem 2.0 preventing Forks and and what is the story with they believe you can date availability on the charts yes so in terms of data availability and you know the execution we have an honest majority assumption and we have these committees and I guess on like polka dot we we make sure that there's a you know just just one person who is is honest whenever we reach a quorum so whenever we reach the threshold of signatures required for some sort of vote from a committee to be to be meaningful then we make sure that there's at least one on this person and so this one honest person in the case of date availability is sufficient to gossip to the rest of the network the data that they have made sure is available because they they have downloaded it and they still have a copy on their computer so we don't use fancy erasure codes at least for for phase one one of the cool things that we have is that for data availability specifically we have a lightly weaker security model which is basically trying to incorporate in the notion of laziness validator so one of the problems with data availability and kind of rewarding it with micro incentives you know by saying hey I have downloaded the data and here's me vouching for it is that the validators can just do copycat voting so they can look at what other validators have done and if you know a reasonably large portion of validators have vouched that a piece of data is available then you know as a rational validator who is kind of lazy I don't need to download the data I can just well what other people's other people are doing and that's that's kind of bad so one the mechanism that we have to prevent that is the idea of proofs of custody so basically we want to make sure that when you vouch that a certain piece of data is available we want to make sure that at the very least you've downloaded it and it's on your computer and so we have this scheme which involves custody bits and the idea here is that we to make the data kind of specific to you you have some sort of fingerprint which is unique to you and the data we will sample a will ask the validator to sample a private key which is unique to them and then mix the private key with the data and then kind of extract the so-called custody bit which is going to be the the fingerprints unique to the to the validator and we're going to assign value to this private key in such a way that if the validator is being lazy and wants to outsource the work of extracting this this custody bit to someone else then they have to give them the private key and and they stand to lose the funds and if they want to be lazy and more direct approach where they you know they don't bother with the custody bit and they kind of choose it at random and half the time but they stand to be to be slashed so what one interesting thing is that this this the same idea can actually apply to execution as well so what you can do is that you can basically what you want to do is you want to force every validator to to go through the execution when they receive a block as opposed to looking at whatever validators say is the end result of an execution and just voting for that and so what you can do there is you can take the execution trace of a block from one state route to another and in the execution trace you mix in the this this private key that I was talking about and then you'll have basically an execution trace which is unique to you and you basically proving to the network that you have made the execution and so we can potentially reduce the the security assumptions for both date availability and an execution and the other question is how do we prevent Forks so I guess there's this two places where folks can happen one is on the beacon chain which is the system chain comment to all the shards and then you have a place where they can be focus in the shots so in the beacon chain we kind of have a so-called hybrid focus rule so we have a mechanism which is called lmd ghost which is kind of the the short-term mechanism and you can you can think of it as a basically an upgrade to the the longest chain rule to Bitcoin is just a slightly better mechanism which incorporates more information than just the longest chain and in addition to that we have a finality gadget which is a Casper FFG which you know every every epoch in the best case so every few minutes will basically economically finalize the chain meaning that if there's two finalized points in the in the beacon chain which are conflicting with each other then at least one third of the total validated pool will get slashed and hopefully there'll be billions and billions of dollars in the validator pool so that one third is a very very meaningful portion to be smashed and then in in the shards what happens is that the shards are kind of dependent on the beacon change so if if the beacon chain folks then kind of the the the the shards may have to fork with it well if if the the beacon change that doesn't fork and just continues them the shards can have a shorter local local folks and and these are resolved in the same way as the beacon chain so with the idea of LMD ghost which is just this upgrade to the longest chain rule and the the waiting that we use is basically economic weights by stake as opposed to using you know thermodynamic weight as in as in proof of work hmm and the and the state validity so what happens if one of the charge gets corrupted and they produce an invalid look and it gets on the beacon chain I'm sure there's gonna be can chain yeah so hopefully that that that should not happen if if our assumptions are correct all security assumptions if if it does happen for some reason or another some sort of exceptional condition then in in at least phase two we will have to do a manual rollback and that that would be really bad because we'd have to manually rollback the beacon chain and hence manual roll back the whole if you're my point narrow system and even worse than that we will have to roll back the finality gadget because the finality gadget is not aware of data availability so in a way producing an invalid so-called cross link from from invalid your unavailable data when invalid state transition from Mashhad is is very very bad in looking kind of more towards the future for FM three point oh or maybe phase three plus we have this mechanism which we call data availability proofs which uses the erasure codes and it's kind of interesting because it's a it's a different way to think of data availability like you can think of it objectively from the point of view of the validators or you can think of it subjectively from the point of view of the of the nodes of the users of the network themselves and so we have this scheme where the users of the network themselves can determine whether a cross link is available or not available just by querying the the network in doing this statistical analysis and so then the clients themselves if they see a bad cross link in the beacon chain can automatically fall away and just ignore that that branch which is an interesting way of enforcing things where the usual model is you know you just trusted validators because you have this honesty assumption and they will do all the enforcing and there's a question from the audience which is what is the definition of the security assumption under which the invalid cross link is unlikely yeah so basically we have this this pool of validators the the main pool and beacon chain which we assume some fraction is is honest and then we we do sampling on that so the sampling mechanism basically involves two things one is two parameters one parameter is going to be how big your committee is so the bigger the committee is the the better because it means that your community will be more statistically representative of the wider pool so you have smaller variance and and that's better for security the other consideration is going to be the quality of your randomness so if you're the randomness that is generated in the beacon chain has some many probability baked them that they need to take that into account also this is the I think the question was I was assuming that the percentage of the people so you said it's a honesty assumption right so assuming that people are honest and not corruptible or is the assumption that they not corruptible fast enough aha I see yeah so we have a resampling of a of a new committee every epoch which is on the order of six minutes and the question I have here is so for cross-links in particular do we need a majority of the committee for that chart to be in favor of it yes it's the one thing I couldn't understand about the spec because see the general rule for the shot itself is an ugly ghost but then what's the rule when we have this cross look sick yeah that's right so there needs to be a majority and specifically we have two-thirds so it's a quite a conservative threshold so your typical cross link for it to where it's normally for other things in the birthing cabin later right so you have this this kind of discrete voting which happens on the Perito basis and the voting is only meaningful you only create a cross link if you reached as very conservative threshold of two ferrets and then there's this more continuous and fine-grained voting which happened on the first log basis and this is going to be lmd ghost to try and resolve short term folks on the shorts but it's still the case for availability that we need justice or validity favorable ability we needed an honest member of the majority that agreed to this that said this wicked yes at least to be sure that we're going to you and this is the problem for polkadot is that we really didn't want to assume an honest majority of one hundredth of our validators even random it can be the case that because they know who each other is you know the bad guys could just have a small presenter to state wait until they own some committee yeah so that's a problem that we don't have any firm because we're assuming hundreds of thousands or even you know close to a million validators and also if you awaken by snake it depends a bit on the distribution right yes so there were for sure there will be a lot of players and smaller cares but we assume that you know the large players you know at least non in isolation can can reach the required threshold if a majority of any shot that each six minute interval yeah when we did we could get that so the thing is that what we do is that we the we break down every single validator as in economic validators and one entity we break it down into multiple validators in 32 if trunks so every validator has the the same amount of stake right yes it's clean we had to do four polka dots it means a particular validator election it's very different than it was in sight cosmos because we want all our protectors to be equal but how do we eat but does that mean the validator with thousands of s needs to be able to run on a hundred yards simultaneous yes well that is one of nice properties is that we have fairness so the little guy who only has thirty two if you know they should be doing a small amount of work they should only be validating one single shot if you're in a whale with 32,000 if then you know you should be doing much more work pro rata to to the games that you you're making and so you should be basically validating on every single shot and so another interesting question here is that's not something that is applicable to cause on site because in cost as well it is done rotate they assigned to the to the zone and so they have the state right in a theorem and polka dot the validators rotate naturally they cannot have the full state of the voltage charge right and so in so you're saying adjusting and the theory of the rotating every six minutes right so what do you think will be the meaningful what is gonna be the number of firsts right how do you think of the size of the state of it short and how much time do you think the validities will need to download it as they as they rotate aha so we have a very nice separation of concerns between and the security of cross-links where we have these cross-links committees which shuffled extremely fast and the notion of a persistent committee which is assigned to a shard on on a longer-term basis you know on the order of days and they are assumed to have the the full state now the way that we kind of reconciled to is through the notion of what I call hybrid statelessness so you have the persistent committees you have who download the full state and you know that could be on the order of hundreds of megabytes you know probably not much more than a gigabyte and by having all the state which they can easily sync in nine days they can make very good informed decisions about inclusion of transactions you know so they can prioritize things relative to gas and things like that the crosslink committees they don't care about the full state the only thing they care about is the state that is involved in the state transitions in the current epoch which is going to be a much smaller subset and this much smaller subset you can provide merkel proofs for every single piece of states that is accessed and so this is going back to the stateless client approach where the the Crossland committees don't have any states and so this is why I call it the hybrid approach where on the one hand you have the Christian committees which are stateless and on the other hand you have the persistent committees which are stateful but of course this means that the crosslink committees don't know that this is in their building on its available no they do because they will make sure to download the blocks and download the yeah download the blocks is the main thing but also download the states which is involved in state transitions right yeah since the last cross link or something like that okay that makes it so so you get polka dot validators have a a similar relationship with no chains we would take them very quickly and they basically only process my client proofs that the DS locks are valid is there any what they call a there's got the full state right so it is very similar very slowly to the power change we'll have the whole state right that's what Justin called hybrid yes it's the same mm-hmm and so from here I think the thing that seemed to come from so now cross-linked amigas actually validate the validity of every block right yes I see okay that makes sense cool and so the next question and this is I think where it becomes the most interesting is the chain thought independent right they in a sense that they're not isolated they communicate with each other right so how is atomicity of cross our transactions insured and so two questions here's one how quickly cross our transactions can happen so what what does what does a shard need to wait for before executing a transaction which initiated on a different chart and the second question is are the atomic by design oh and if yes how it is how it is insured and zakian let's start with cosmos are you still muted so our our cross chain transactions atomic so cross change so what we are what the IBC protocol the inter box in communication protocol which has has has similarities to cross linking in in its in its in its nature it's at the lowest level specifies sort of broadcast only protocol which is which is you know similar to UDP in terms of internet packets and essentially doesn't provide atomicity guarantees but then the idea is is that the heart that the higher protocols that specify for instance token transfers or other kinds of messages can specify need for acknowledgments and acknowledgments then provide the way of bootstrapping atomic transaction so where where where the transaction were the state machines only advanced on mutual acknowledgment that a packet has been received and so in a disaster situation at one of the zones so let's say there was two zones right zone and Zone B and there was some sort of there was not out sort of higher level protocol which allowed the transfer from a to zone B but let's say that then there was a disastrous event and turns out that Zone A at some point in the past was corrupted so at that point will it not be allowed to revert to the previous state okay so what let's talk about two things so as I have said that cosmos doesn't do anything to guarantee data availability and so because of the fact that we don't have any get data availability guarantees it is and we do not have really any guarantee of rightness nor is the lack of availability and the lack of limas really distinguishable from each other in a synchronous setting so first thing that first thing that would happen is the first thing that would happen would be the would be the the first thing that would happen would be the sorry first thing that would happen would be okay so you you send a packet to attack you send a token to from zone a design B in the process of sending the pocket then B never responds or the response is not available to Zone A within some try not and if the higher level protocol specifies that acknowledgments are needed if zone being there if the token does not propagate back to zombie in in the you know sufficient I'm playing then the token on zone' would probably be unfrozen by the higher level protocol the second question is is is there a mechanism in order for there to be to revert an invalid state so from the point of view of IBC and the inter box chain protocol any state in which there is consensus is canonically valid we don't make it we don't define state in terms of some state machine in the base layer protocol so if the validator set does so the the validators the cosmoses ibc is not designed for a system where let's say block hype you know 1000 the validator saw 2/3 the validator signs off on an invalid state besides they've made a horrible mistake and decides to sign off on a new block 1000 the if they decided if something went wrong let's say there was a programming error or something else went wrong in the system and that same validators have decided they would probably just do some sort of upgrade or out-of-band change that reverse the stated state machine while preserving the a block if the inner chain communication protocol has ever shown two blocks at the same height both signed off by two thirds of the validator set that would automatically fall next make sense cool so suggestion what are the what do shards wait for before the process the cursor transactions on how's that the me city guaranteed right so so one interesting thing is that in the film Tipu no we have no find notion of transaction so this is a bit of a controversial statement but we have no transactions and so if you want to have a notion of transaction that is at the application layer and you know there's a million ways to do transactions and there's all poor trade-offs that you can take so I am thinking of Tunder stood this can you explain a little bit more about how transactions don't exist right so like one way of thinking of a transaction is that you have you have either multiple things as part of the transaction you have for example a signature you can have a replay protection mechanism which is a nonce you have some efj to pay for the gas add some sort of you know destination which is pointing to a contract and it turns out that all these various sub components of a transaction can be abstracted away so instead of enshrining a specific signature scheme such as ECDSA or the other signatures you can have a script you can have a contract itself specify its own signature scheme so you know the contract just receives data like a blob of data and then it it might say okay you know the the last you know whatever 100 bytes or the signature and I will have my own custom logic for that well this has several advantages one is that it simplifies the consensus layer is now the consensus layer only needs to have a notion of a virtual machine you know such as web assembly and it doesn't need you know to to include things like ECDSA the other reason why this is valuable is that it's it's it's strictly more powerful it's more flexible so you know when you take signatures specifically it allows for if the application layer wants to quantum safe signatures so you can have a hash based signature scheme and if suddenly quantum computers come along then at least not all over fear will come crumbling down instead you know each individual application can can choose to upgrade at the letter so in if your entry point now is there like an on chain application way or code base and then there's like sort of user provided data blobs that invoke that application code base is that how to understand it now the only thing that we have in the film 2.0 is the notion of a contract okay which has code and storage contract calls okay and that's it got it and then you can if you want to have a notion of transaction then you you can have your own replay production mechanism and whatnot don't deal with gas in the bottle right how do we stop the spam of people if you have some very long process to check signatures I so yeah I have two questions I don't understand how gas works in in polka dot and I don't understand how gas works in adhering to corner so both of you could explain it to me it would be great yes there needs to be some basic functionality for gas and that is something that that we provide one is that we need to have like you know metering of the opcodes so that we have a notion of a gas limit and that there is no spam the other thing that we need which is just slightly more subtle is that we need to protect the block proposal so those who will select the transactions and put them in I said transactions but you know select the contract calls and put them in a block against the denial of service attack where basically they do they do a lot of work and they're not guaranteed to get paid now it turns out that this problem already happens where the film 1.0 so if you gossip a transaction with a bad signature they you're wasting CPU cycles of whoever is going to be receiving the transaction and checking the the the signature and seeing that it is wrong the nice thing about ECDSA is that there's a this kind of a cap there's a maximum amount of work that you that you're going to waste and so one of the things that we want to do in the film 2.0 is to provide a similar invariance so when you receive a transaction as the blog proposer you know how much CP how many CPU cycles in the worst case you're going to be wasting and not getting paid yeah so a serious issue for things like z cache I think I've no idea how they solve it because but in a theory 1.0 it it's easy anyway a poker code every power chain has their own notion there is no system white version of gas so okay so I have a question about that so if there's no system wide payment of gas how do the non collator validators that are randomly elected get paid for their work the validators get paid well they basically get paid along on the real agent they're real a chain bio-datas they stake in dots and they get paid in dots and there are limits on a single block okay so a bar there is but a new magic okay like it gets exceeded in in the in terms of doing the during execution the validators do not don't sign and therefore the block neveress in is never far away that's right yeah there is some probably quite subjective limit on when on how much how much computation time is too much for a look yeah we haven't fully dealt with this in tender mint yet it's there's there's definitely briefing from malicious proposers in tender but right now it's it's it's something that we probably that we have to deal with eventually yeah we find it's very difficult to it is actually gas the gas bottle has certain surprising transactions and the relay chain isn't gonna have any support contracts at all but we need to be careful in pricing things maybe I should probably out ask answer the question about messages sure that a transceiver polka dot yeah so the way message passing synchronizing a polka dot works actually much simpler than many other systems so because every sort of state the state of the relay change to who defines what parity in Laxus happened so apparent so you know approaching lockers happen when it's happens on the beam a chain and each pairing block can send out messages to other proteins and then when the other protein comes to build on that that being a chaining hash it has to act on this message does not that condom message right if it does not you know there's a set of messages that it should be acting on and it's not accepted if it doesn't act on this message there will be sort of hashes and signals on the relay chain to say that we get we have a message from this all the messages of this block hash up to this of this vocal root so we can bear a chance right and let's say that in one at the particular height of the relay team all that you want power chains send some cross chain communication to one of them all right if that one will will not be able to deal with all the messages in one that one has to deal with all the messages that's the difficulty price if you want to work out how to launch a but what could it be the lower bound of purchasing all the messages and the upper bar of there's also the separate bones we just discussed on the only gas so it couldn't be that the the gas mount is below the the lower bound of how many messages you need to process innovative to the farmers messages you can pass a you can send out ways to prepare attained to sort of block another power chain I'm sparing it and just make eleven but fundamentally we should be acting on all messages to get sent to us even if what we're doing is buffering them tax one later there's no way messages could go missing right so this concept of manual rollback who Justin was describing recently in polka dot that's that's implemented on the protocol level right if even a valid look is detected in the past we were all back hopefully will detect nearby blocks and certainly we need before we defer this is one of the reasons why we actually want to find out to catch it on top of that yes the on top of it that's low above production mechanism unlike easy tendonman is that we want some extra time to roll back if we have to what is it certainly much more ugly to build backbones we've actually find my something yeah Justin your response I actually means the maybe didn't answer maybe I just missed it but so even if we abstract out the quantum of transactions try these two star-crossed Chang communication and do they do the quarters define what they want to see on the one another short in order to proceed or or is there some predefined condition under which the the the the multi chain execution will happen right so in terms of what layer one provides is a synchronous cross short contract calls so you can have a contract on short a makes a call to contract on short be send some if in addition to making the call and and that goes in in a in a cross-linked and then one shall be is aware the cross-linked you know the they can call call the data from the cross-linked and make the call and the approximately once and once an epoch not want it right that once per slot right yeah so it's the the communication at Lane order of epochs which is on the order of minutes now all of this is layer one infrastructure which has in a way nothing to do with transactions if you if you think of transact and you have this whole design space and so you can you can choose a set of trade-offs you know you can you'll be trading off things like latency and and security exit e so one of the things it you know it's totally possible for example to have a channel that is open between two contracts on on two different shots and here the notional transaction would you know would be instantaneous but you can also have one one idea which is which is interesting is the the idea of optimistic cross link so you these crossings are super high security but they take a bit of time but it turns out there's there's a gradient between a cross link being totally finalized and no cross link at all so you can start looking and at the votes that the individual validate is in the shard make and you can look at kind of the data stations piling on and you can use heuristics to which are much lower latency to make decisions as to which cross link is is most likely to come in and you know we're talking the orders of magnitude is probably you know 99.9% certainty that a cross link will eventually be finalized you know on the order of seconds that's kind of the guarantees that we want to provide but if you want for 100% guarantees then you have to wait the full epic things about copula is sort of we can act on things after warm log so it might be we get about 15 seconds to censor from one chain to another and it is not finalized but we can send lots of messages back and forwards and finalize them all at the same time because the share state right so we we don't have the luxury of having every shard be aware of every other shot on a slot by slot level simply because we have you know a thousand shards and and that would be you know the quadratic well it would be too much information to communicate what we do allow is on in an opt-in basis at the application layer if shot a wants to be aware of shall be on a slope by stop basis it can do that but it's kind of an opt-in thing and we let the market kind of determine what are the most valuable routes in in this complete graph of shots there's a question from the audience I think that's the question to Justin which is if it is the case right so if a single sort gets corrupted right then we would have to get to the source of consensus later if they appoint valid state transition so if that if we already have to resort proposal consensus in the case where some threshold of valid well it is corrupted why do we need the finality gadget on the beacon chain to begin with that make sense so if we have to resort to the social layer I've heard there was some sort of bug you know though in the implementation that we can we can fix and you know deal on the ad hoc basis or you know we're not meeting the security assumptions and if it's if it's the latter case then you know we're just we're because there's nothing you know our system would I mean one thing I guess we could do is we could we could hard fork and make the thresholds more aggressive so instead of having a 2/3 threshold on the crosslink we could have a 3/4 special order or whatever I mean the trade-off there is that we we would lose on lightness and we it would be potentially higher latency to make cross-links but you know if the the reverting to the social layer is really a an extreme thing and hopefully we won't have to resort to that I mean one of the we're looking kind of too hard on the system in in in this aspect and to to minimize the possibility of having to resort to these manual roll boxes is also improving the randomness and so that's that ties in with there in the vdf roadmap where we're basically upgrading from random which is which has some amount of manipulation and then the amount of manipulation kind of grows with the amount with the size of the attacker to a random as beacon which which has which has no manipulation basically regardless at this time okay so let's let's wrap up the panel that was that was very informative I guess I hope and for everybody and as the closing note if there's anything exciting happening in your ecosystem that you would like to share with the communities that would be a great opportunity to do so or otherwise just just a couple final words and we can start with zaki absolutely say yes thanks for this I actually got some questions I've I had wanted answers to for a long time answered so that was really helpful for me about both the polka dot and a theorem 2.0 designs let's see what's going on and what's going on in the cosmos you guys it's done you know like I said the you know or what I would you know always characterize the cosmos ecosystem is is we sher largely the same goals as both the the polka dot and a theorem 2.0 project in the sense that we want to make Byzantine fault tolerant and computation ubiquitous affordable available to the world and we think that is a noble endeavor and I think we all share that we've just sort of been prioritizing things differently from other projects so our biggest priority right now is getting this inter blockchain communication system up and running and the great progress is being made in fact I have a catch-up call with Christo's is the technical lead on the IBC project right after this really encourage everyone to just like participate in the community watch those repos everything associated with them I would also you know we are we are trying to position the inter blockchain communication standard as something that would be will be helpful for people who are building chartered systems with stronger security assumptions and also for you know systems like it here in 2.0 and polka dot which certainly do not assume that they're going to be in a closed world where they are the only chain that exists so they will also need an interlocking communication system with the same security assumptions as our IBC system so we encourage everyone from all those communities to participate in our and our IV series which will probably be the first system of its kind sort of for the 2.0 watching 2.0 world final words yeah no it was thank you for having me I mean III love comparing the various systems and the trade-off I guess one way I think of the spectrum of trade offs oddly with kind of cosmos on one extreme and then a firm nav extreme and then in the middle polka dot and the you know the extremes one is kind of homogeneity and the other one is is non-homogeneity and then you know polka dot in the middle where they have some amount of homogeneity at least him in the in the security model but not necessarily in the english dons or the the shout or the powertrains i mean one of the things that's going on in in the theorem 2.0 is trying to you know collaborate more with with other blockchain projects so you know we're you know we've made this effort recently to try and standardize on the hash function and i think it's great that you know from a de facto point of view everyone is using sha-256 and so well you know we might as well join the crowd and i think that's big win we're also looking to standardize on BLS 12 381 so again there's you know the especially in improve of state systems this this need to have efficient handling of signatures because you potentially have many people voting and the other signatures are you know can provide 100 X or thousand X scaling in that respect and the great news is that everyone seems to be converging towards a specific curve pl/sql 3:81 and you know i just before this panel I came out of a standardization call where we're making fun of progress so very happy there we're also looking to collaborate on the video project you know there'll be more announcements there but the surface of collaboration there is pretty huge the MPC where we're going to generate this RSA modulus and it's also going to be useful for RS emulators we're going to have a distribution of hardware where we also want many people to join we were gonna have these these competitive circuit competitions where we want lots of people to join in and we also are looking to go but collaborate on a financial standpoint because it's it's you know it's a multi-million dollar kind of project and we could use help from from many different players yeah I mean the other exciting stuff that's going on is that we're starting to put more effort on on the face - I'd say phase zero and phase one or you know are quite mature now and it's a matter of finding bugs and polishing and and the exciting thing about phase two is that it's it's quite challenging from a research standpoint but I'm hoping that from an implementation standpoint it will be pretty trivial you know with all the abstraction that we've made but kind of removed complexity and we keep removing complexity and at the end of the day you'll have I'm hoping a very thin layer on top of web assembly and so I'm kind of hoping that we'll get face to almost for free in the same way that we got phase 1 kind of almost for free from from phase 0 well somehow is there anything exciting happening in WebM polka dot and final words line the first thing I want to say additional suggestion is yeah standardization is good we kind of in favor of all this exhibit inai surface area of small contracts could understand the crypto were using me anyway it's a hook it on this design is quite ambitious and we're still a few months ahead from launch we're gonna have BT shortly and the main thing that we want to communicate is that for people wanting to build up a hurricane parity substrate is only out there and you can start building on that soon so they know what we're doing beyond that yet we to try and get Britt to work on bridges to work out how to talk to everyone I think this it's very easy for cause muscle but very hard for everyone else and that's what's going on well okay great it's very tricky okay awesome so let's and here thanks everyone for watching and until next time thank you guys","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-04T04:30:51.736Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":0,"text":"awesome okay so let's start so this is our Tamir this is going to be a panel on on protocols that try to have some sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=0s"},{"start_seconds":8,"text":"communication between multiple chains we have three panelists here well I guess four panels including me and we have Zaki from cosmos and tender milk labs we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=8s"},{"start_seconds":17,"text":"have Justin from a theorem and Alastair from from polka dot and with the foundation and can you guys give a quick","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=17s"},{"start_seconds":25,"text":"introduction about yourselves and maybe say a few words about the protocol and especially about the the intended use","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=25s"},{"start_seconds":33,"text":"case or intended goal of the protocol and we can start with Zaki okay Simonian I work at tender mint","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=33s"},{"start_seconds":41,"text":"I've been involved in the cosmos projects basically since it was first conceived and like more broadly I've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=41s"},{"start_seconds":48,"text":"been in the in the blockchain sharding community for a very long time I've been thinking about starting ideas for a very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=48s"},{"start_seconds":56,"text":"long time cosmos like for just quickly is like very much came out of like my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=56s"},{"start_seconds":64,"text":"desire to build a to approach starting from a different direction from what it seemed like everyone else was which is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=64s"},{"start_seconds":73,"text":"start with very minimal assumptions about how different components in the system are able to trust each other and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=73s"},{"start_seconds":81,"text":"offer uniform security and then and build an integrated system from that and then and then you know explore all of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=81s"},{"start_seconds":90,"text":"these different charting ideas over time so that's what cosmos is cosmos is basically a unified or you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=90s"},{"start_seconds":99,"text":"connected world of watching applications where each chain is its own sovereign","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=99s"},{"start_seconds":105,"text":"independently secure entity justin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=105s"},{"start_seconds":115,"text":"research team and specifically working on 2.0","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=115s"},{"start_seconds":121,"text":"you know shouting and the data problem was what got me started in the research","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=121s"},{"start_seconds":130,"text":"space so it's quite my heart I mean now I work on on all aspects of FM 2.0 but still very much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=130s"},{"start_seconds":137,"text":"interested in sharding technologies and designs and trade offs I guess in terms","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=137s"},{"start_seconds":144,"text":"of what the goal for from 2.0 is you try","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=144s"},{"start_seconds":150,"text":"and be a scalable platform for for small","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=150s"},{"start_seconds":156,"text":"contracts I guess and buy scalable you know we want to try and push the limits","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=156s"},{"start_seconds":164,"text":"as to what is possible at the at layer 1 in terms of providing kind of a very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=164s"},{"start_seconds":171,"text":"secure and and homogeneous base layer and in terms of scalability we're looking to have you know a thousand","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=171s"},{"start_seconds":179,"text":"shards which you can think of roughly as a thousand copies of if you're in 1.0 which roughly have the the same kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=179s"},{"start_seconds":188,"text":"security guarantees as from one who know today and then if you need more scalability on top of that then that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=188s"},{"start_seconds":195,"text":"where the the application layer comes in the layer 2 scalability solutions and you know if pyramid is known to unlock","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=195s"},{"start_seconds":204,"text":"these these kind of things and was a pioneer there you know with with the EVM being a very generic and flexible","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=204s"},{"start_seconds":210,"text":"platform Alastair ok I miss you Tony","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=210s"},{"start_seconds":218,"text":"that there he'll computer scientist by trade I'm at the web 3 foundation now and I'm working polka dots","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=218s"},{"start_seconds":226,"text":"so polka dots has the idea that we wanted lots of different changes lots of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=226s"},{"start_seconds":232,"text":"different state machines on top of a sort of common abstraction with the idea","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=232s"},{"start_seconds":240,"text":"that it should all be one system so I think a talk to each other everything should have it as a single security","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=240s"},{"start_seconds":247,"text":"model oh okay and so the first interesting question is as two questions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=247s"},{"start_seconds":255,"text":"in one so one question is one for each of the protocols right for cosmos aetherium and polka dot the user when they interact with the with the protocol","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=255s"},{"start_seconds":264,"text":"do they interact with the protocol as a whole or do they interact with particular zones para chained or shorts and from there the second question on top of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=264s"},{"start_seconds":272,"text":"immediately is how what how is the security of each hard zone of origin is ensured and how and so in in all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=272s"},{"start_seconds":282,"text":"protocols are valid it is right how they selected for each of the zones and I guess we can go at the same word right psyche","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=282s"},{"start_seconds":288,"text":"are you muted am i meeting myself I have a little bit of a coughs I've been meeting myself the said the okay so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=288s"},{"start_seconds":298,"text":"cosmos very simple answers to those questions every zone users generally interact with zones one at a time you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=298s"},{"start_seconds":308,"text":"know they may engage in cross zone behavior it may be eventually possible","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=308s"},{"start_seconds":315,"text":"it may eventually be the case that that you know people we build higher level abstractions over multiple zones but currently what is mostly contemplating","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=315s"},{"start_seconds":324,"text":"is interacting with one zone at a time so then the second question was about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=324s"},{"start_seconds":331,"text":"security and validator sets in general zones choose their own validator sets and while we think that there will be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=331s"},{"start_seconds":341,"text":"sort of economies of scale here where I think the term Julian used is like famous validators and there will be well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=341s"},{"start_seconds":350,"text":"you know a highly overlapped group of validator Zhaan's on a large number of chains there's nothing in the protocol","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=350s"},{"start_seconds":357,"text":"that requires it or assumes that that is true well Justin yeah so I used to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=357s"},{"start_seconds":365,"text":"stepping back to the way I think about it is that in terms of interacting with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=365s"},{"start_seconds":371,"text":"the the the wider system next track where your press is interacting with a specific part of the system the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=371s"},{"start_seconds":379,"text":"latter is strictly more powerful so you can do one with the other but not the other way around so you know we want to expose to dab","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=379s"},{"start_seconds":387,"text":"developers the the most powerful primitive which is to interact with a specific shot but then of course nothing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=387s"},{"start_seconds":394,"text":"prevents you to put the end user from a user experience standpoint if you you wish to be abstracted away and you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=394s"},{"start_seconds":401,"text":"do wish to interact with multiple shots and then you can totally do that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=401s"},{"start_seconds":407,"text":"one of the things maybe worth mentioning at the execution layer you know each","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=407s"},{"start_seconds":416,"text":"shot will have its own separate EVM but nothing prevents you from kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=416s"},{"start_seconds":425,"text":"merging the data availability layers of the of the shots so you can have an alternative execution engine which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=425s"},{"start_seconds":432,"text":"basically combines let's say four different shots and then you have your that's one way of attracting but you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=432s"},{"start_seconds":441,"text":"also of course abstract kind of using the DVM as one of your your building blocks and you abstract away for example","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=441s"},{"start_seconds":449,"text":"the notion of a cross drug transaction away from the user in terms of our security model you know every shard is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=449s"},{"start_seconds":456,"text":"is homogeneous and we kind of want to have this massive pool of security that is bootstrapped from the existing if you're a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=456s"},{"start_seconds":465,"text":"microsystem so you know we have over ten billion dollars of the of tokens and we want to make use of that so we're hoping","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=465s"},{"start_seconds":474,"text":"to have you know hundreds of thousands maybe even close to million validators staking into this one huge pool and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=474s"},{"start_seconds":482,"text":"we want to have a smart mechanism of yielding every single individual shard","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=482s"},{"start_seconds":490,"text":"basically the same roughly the same security as the big pool and we we do that using statistically representative","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=490s"},{"start_seconds":498,"text":"sampling of committees so in terms of the details of a security model it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=498s"},{"start_seconds":505,"text":"mostly just an honesty assumption on the big pool of validators but and that's a very subjective question but when you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=505s"},{"start_seconds":513,"text":"think of a theme do you think of it as a like a single protocol consists of multiple charts or do you think of it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=513s"},{"start_seconds":520,"text":"more as like multiple independent blog chains which happen to be homogeneous and unfair security","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=520s"},{"start_seconds":528,"text":"so you kick the difference it starts what can you repeat the difference right so it's more it's really the way I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=528s"},{"start_seconds":538,"text":"about the theorem versus let's say cosmos right is that causes in cosmos did this is a very differentiated right and clearly in interact with the zone","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=538s"},{"start_seconds":546,"text":"so I'm cursive when I think of a theorem for me at the end 2.0 it's more of a single protocol which just happens to be shorted but from your answer it seems","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=546s"},{"start_seconds":554,"text":"like the way you look at it is more like multiple independent shards right where people clearly understand so I guess","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=554s"},{"start_seconds":562,"text":"like the question is as a developer when I deploy a smart contract presumably they could liquid way to think about it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=562s"},{"start_seconds":571,"text":"right one way I'm thinking when I'm deploying a smart contract is I'm deploying it to a theme 2.0 and another way of thinking it is I'm deploying it to specific charter with um two point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=571s"},{"start_seconds":579,"text":"all right so what model do you think developers will mostly have oh it's C okay so from the point of view of of a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=579s"},{"start_seconds":586,"text":"designer basically what I do a different foundation there's a single protocol and it's very clean and unified and and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=586s"},{"start_seconds":594,"text":"simple and you know we don't try and have special cases which would complex things but from the point of view of a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=594s"},{"start_seconds":601,"text":"deaf developer you know you there will be you know you will have some sort of a preference as to choosing one shot or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=601s"},{"start_seconds":610,"text":"neither one consideration is that within a single shot you will have synchronous","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=610s"},{"start_seconds":618,"text":"can cross contract calls whereas across shards at least in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=618s"},{"start_seconds":625,"text":"default evm you will have a synchronous calls and so if you want to do some synchronous calls with a very specific","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=625s"},{"start_seconds":634,"text":"contract let's say you're building on top of crypto kitties and you know you want to be in the same JavaScript or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=634s"},{"start_seconds":640,"text":"kidneys the other consideration beyond proximity to other contracts will be the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=640s"},{"start_seconds":647,"text":"gas market so every single shot will have a different gas market and you know some might be higher price than others","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=647s"},{"start_seconds":655,"text":"because they're more popular and so if you have the luxury of choosing your chard because you have a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=655s"},{"start_seconds":663,"text":"adapt which is more decoupled from than others then you're gonna want to favor","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=663s"},{"start_seconds":669,"text":"the the cheaper shots I guess one thing which kind of goes against this idea that every shot is special and you want","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=669s"},{"start_seconds":679,"text":"to choose the best one is that you can totally have the notion of yanking so at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=679s"},{"start_seconds":685,"text":"the application layer at least you can have the option of having logic which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=685s"},{"start_seconds":692,"text":"allows you to hop from one shot to another and so you're not necessarily tied to one shot and so and from that point of view you go back more to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=692s"},{"start_seconds":701,"text":"designers point of view where everything is homogeneous and fundable so I just wanted to jump in and comment","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=701s"},{"start_seconds":710,"text":"and I want to say that like the goal of having this uniform interface across many chains is is I think like one of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=710s"},{"start_seconds":718,"text":"the most appealing things in boxing's it's like you know I've been you know I think I've been talking about it for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=718s"},{"start_seconds":726,"text":"five years at this point it's it sort of been I think I'm it's like one of the most exciting visions it's also probably","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=726s"},{"start_seconds":735,"text":"the most technically hard to achieve and I definitely don't feel like to know how to design a system that full week","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=735s"},{"start_seconds":743,"text":"manifests that vision okay Alistair the same question or a chance or the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=743s"},{"start_seconds":751,"text":"relation and like few words about this right yeah so the principles that the user mostly is interacting with the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=751s"},{"start_seconds":759,"text":"prowl change and as much as the security as possible is there is a function of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=759s"},{"start_seconds":767,"text":"the entire bio dataset to be no change so agenda there being a thousand tightest starting up may have maybe 100","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=767s"},{"start_seconds":777,"text":"maybe looking that we've scaled it to more than 1,000 and where possible they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=777s"},{"start_seconds":784,"text":"get to decide the security we're going to divide them into sort of small committees to do with each hurricane but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=784s"},{"start_seconds":791,"text":"ultimately they're going to be ways bypassing that if one of these committees don't that'd be bad because they're so small each individual para","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=791s"},{"start_seconds":801,"text":"chain and it has its own set of colitis sort of by default you only need to be have a security but let the censorship","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=801s"},{"start_seconds":809,"text":"resistance and not for the security of the things we care about but para chains can be different and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=809s"},{"start_seconds":818,"text":"some of them can some of them will need their own security and and the co-leaders para chains choose quality of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=818s"},{"start_seconds":825,"text":"themselves right yes so that would be close to the concept of validators and cosmos right which are also chosen to make a zone well yes except that they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=825s"},{"start_seconds":834,"text":"know that there is so much less mm-hmm yes notionally co-leaders are only","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=834s"},{"start_seconds":842,"text":"responsible for transaction ordering yes right yes we definitely need collisions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=842s"},{"start_seconds":851,"text":"potential resistance but if unless the the project has its own consensus the security should be to the county panic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=851s"},{"start_seconds":857,"text":"the products the religion","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=857s"},{"start_seconds":876,"text":"I can't hear Alex yeah yeah you hear me","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=876s"},{"start_seconds":885,"text":"now yes okay so the question was the number of validators in each party and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=885s"},{"start_seconds":894,"text":"at each given moment is on the order of five right so so what happens when they all corrupted was attended right what happened over up to eleven we have to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=894s"},{"start_seconds":901,"text":"rely on some actor pointed out so that the separate things for validity and at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=901s"},{"start_seconds":910,"text":"availability which we might be getting onto yeah but the basic idea for validity is that some fishermen could come along and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=910s"},{"start_seconds":917,"text":"point out this thing is wrong and back that's hapless take and if that happens then other random people go and check it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=917s"},{"start_seconds":924,"text":"and when there's a disagreement we can everyone checks it and we can splash up","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=924s"},{"start_seconds":931,"text":"well we just left them all this debt problem mm-hm start talking about what can go wrong","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=931s"},{"start_seconds":940,"text":"and and how to defend against it and we can start with with both other since we we just started talking about fishermen right so there are few things that can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=940s"},{"start_seconds":948,"text":"go wrong right if the if the validators that are assigned to a particular forage any corrupted they can in principle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=948s"},{"start_seconds":956,"text":"attempt to fork to create invalid state transition and do with all the blocks right so well they come yeah the food reason should be defined that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=956s"},{"start_seconds":964,"text":"invalid state condition is the problem well I did this worse this other things I can do so there's the date availability there's a Claytor and some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=964s"},{"start_seconds":973,"text":"validators can collude to not tell the other other really the other actors in the same chain what happens so we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=973s"},{"start_seconds":982,"text":"this issue that we don't have so if you're an individual trained and it has its own security then you know you produce a block and it's in your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=982s"},{"start_seconds":990,"text":"interest to make sure that everyone else knows this block for something like Bitcoin right but if some other chain is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=990s"},{"start_seconds":1000,"text":"responsible for deciding the consensus what happens then there's no reason why it should give you the data at all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1000s"},{"start_seconds":1009,"text":"so we have to make just for the purposes of the panel and for the wider audience I want to kind of like zoom out and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1009s"},{"start_seconds":1017,"text":"explain the data availability problem a little bit because probably for the four of us we all have know exactly what we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1017s"},{"start_seconds":1024,"text":"mean but I would say the larger audience probably has no eyes there's definitely keep in the audience you don't know so can I take a shot at it okay I'm this is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1024s"},{"start_seconds":1035,"text":"mostly just a quick summary of Joseph beans talk on data availability so one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1035s"},{"start_seconds":1042,"text":"of the things that is is is most intriguing about Bitcoin and proof of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1042s"},{"start_seconds":1049,"text":"and proof of work consensus is that it gave us not necessarily strong guarantees but reasonably good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1049s"},{"start_seconds":1057,"text":"guarantees about data availability and what data availability means is that the blocks that are being generated are actually available that you can download","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1057s"},{"start_seconds":1065,"text":"them from the internet and what would be the problem if the data was not available is for instance you could no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1065s"},{"start_seconds":1075,"text":"one would be able only the people who had the data was available would be able to spend money and one of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1075s"},{"start_seconds":1081,"text":"manifestations of attacks on data availability in proof-of-work cryptocurrency is is the selfish mining","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1081s"},{"start_seconds":1089,"text":"problem where you mind blocks but you don't need them available and the and this is mostly intact on the incentive","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1089s"},{"start_seconds":1096,"text":"systems but as we build these more complicated systems the attacks get worse if you can if you can produce","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1096s"},{"start_seconds":1103,"text":"blocks and make them unavailable so and basically the assumption of proof of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1103s"},{"start_seconds":1110,"text":"work in proof of work is that you're not broadcasting your blocks and you control less than 51 percent of the 50 plus 1","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1110s"},{"start_seconds":1119,"text":"percent of them of the half power mining the people the miners who are honestly broadcasting their box will eventually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1119s"},{"start_seconds":1127,"text":"produce a longer chain and the data unavailable chain will not be canonical so this is like a really exciting and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1127s"},{"start_seconds":1135,"text":"clever property of of proof-of-work you know there's like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1135s"},{"start_seconds":1144,"text":"massive literature around consensus and distributed systems that goes back 40 years but like the literature around or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1144s"},{"start_seconds":1152,"text":"the study of this problem of how do you actually ensure in a distributed system that the data is available is is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1152s"},{"start_seconds":1160,"text":"relatively interesting and new and is like a research frontier so you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1160s"},{"start_seconds":1168,"text":"cosmos we we explicitly punt on the data availability problem and attempt to design a system that doesn't solve it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1168s"},{"start_seconds":1176,"text":"and one of the things that's most interesting about the systems that the Alistar and Justin are building is that they explicitly need to solve this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1176s"},{"start_seconds":1184,"text":"problem in order to further their systems to be severe so Alistair would you like to give over your power","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1184s"},{"start_seconds":1192,"text":"welcome to solving it right so one of the simplest ways of solving this so you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1192s"},{"start_seconds":1201,"text":"have this problem that there's too much data for everyone to hold yeah we'd like to know but enormous majority to be able","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1201s"},{"start_seconds":1210,"text":"to be sure that they have almost data and I want solution to that is there's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1210s"},{"start_seconds":1219,"text":"rating coding idea what we do is we have this data and we give a little piece of everything's have data to everyone such that we can then go if you have enough","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1219s"},{"start_seconds":1227,"text":"people we can be constructive and so so we sort of apply that with the the real a chain validated so each of those gets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1227s"},{"start_seconds":1236,"text":"a piece of e to the power 10 blocks and then we know that if we ever find them lie something it must be because you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1236s"},{"start_seconds":1244,"text":"at least well 2/3 of people are gonna burger it and end some visiting agreement and this means if you know if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1244s"},{"start_seconds":1253,"text":"two-thirds of those were honest then one-third of people should have had all these pieces and we set things up so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1253s"},{"start_seconds":1262,"text":"that they can be a simple everything of course then the question is is when do they render someone we assemble and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1262s"},{"start_seconds":1270,"text":"that's that's the hard and basically if people say something's missing we have to have random people tempt you to be Simplot and ask her out","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1270s"},{"start_seconds":1281,"text":"and once you've solved availability then yeah then getting someone point absolutely correct it's the easier problem and so in poker","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1281s"},{"start_seconds":1290,"text":"that the primer assumption is that every party and someone cares about right and so there's at least one person who is validating all the blocks and there and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1290s"},{"start_seconds":1298,"text":"so yeah so that there should be someone change if someone is fisherman check me I'll be poaching and we'd also like the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1298s"},{"start_seconds":1309,"text":"idea would be you know all these perishing to public and we could also trust a majority of people who produced ability of the collectors as well but we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1309s"},{"start_seconds":1318,"text":"want something but holds you know with different levels of certainty depending on how many of these sets are honest and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1318s"},{"start_seconds":1326,"text":"why so you've started by saying that Forks are completely impossible so what is preventing force from happening oh well udon I didn't tell you that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1326s"},{"start_seconds":1334,"text":"folks so let's say that the really Kate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1334s"},{"start_seconds":1342,"text":"folks but at SFO state of the real a chain determines the project I say so the VHA block determines what all the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1342s"},{"start_seconds":1351,"text":"projects are so only the real a can can fork right so effectively the the part of chains the fortress rule would always","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1351s"},{"start_seconds":1360,"text":"favor the the last block which was snaps added to the part of chain to the elite chain right yeah well the the real they change the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1360s"},{"start_seconds":1367,"text":"deterministic version yeah by having this basically the hashes of parish a lot still doing a check and that's what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1367s"},{"start_seconds":1374,"text":"determines what's hot right and so what the partition could be a little bit the head of the relation right as a user of the power chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1374s"},{"start_seconds":1382,"text":"shall I shall I not respect those blocks until I see them on the relation or well you can but even if you see them on the real a chain that doesn't mean that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1382s"},{"start_seconds":1389,"text":"they're final yet mm-hmm when something's finalized on the way they chain is finalized Thanks well yeah so suggestion the same","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1389s"},{"start_seconds":1399,"text":"set of things is how how is a theorem 2.0 preventing Forks and and what is the story with they believe you can date availability","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1399s"},{"start_seconds":1407,"text":"on the charts yes so in terms of data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1407s"},{"start_seconds":1417,"text":"availability and you know the execution we have an honest majority assumption","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1417s"},{"start_seconds":1424,"text":"and we have these committees and I guess on like polka dot we we make sure that there's a you know just just one person","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1424s"},{"start_seconds":1433,"text":"who is is honest whenever we reach a quorum so whenever we reach the threshold of signatures required for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1433s"},{"start_seconds":1442,"text":"some sort of vote from a committee to be to be meaningful then we make sure that there's at least one on this person and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1442s"},{"start_seconds":1450,"text":"so this one honest person in the case of date availability is sufficient to gossip to the rest of the network the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1450s"},{"start_seconds":1458,"text":"data that they have made sure is available because they they have downloaded it and they still have a copy on their computer so we don't use fancy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1458s"},{"start_seconds":1467,"text":"erasure codes at least for for phase one one of the cool things that we have is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1467s"},{"start_seconds":1475,"text":"that for data availability specifically we have a lightly weaker security model","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1475s"},{"start_seconds":1485,"text":"which is basically trying to incorporate in the notion of laziness validator so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1485s"},{"start_seconds":1494,"text":"one of the problems with data availability and kind of rewarding it with micro incentives you know by saying","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1494s"},{"start_seconds":1502,"text":"hey I have downloaded the data and here's me vouching for it is that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1502s"},{"start_seconds":1508,"text":"validators can just do copycat voting so they can look at what other validators have done and if you know a reasonably","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1508s"},{"start_seconds":1517,"text":"large portion of validators have vouched that a piece of data is available then you know as a rational validator who is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1517s"},{"start_seconds":1526,"text":"kind of lazy I don't need to download the data I can just well what other people's other people are doing and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1526s"},{"start_seconds":1533,"text":"that's that's kind of bad so one the mechanism that we have to prevent that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1533s"},{"start_seconds":1540,"text":"is the idea of proofs of custody so basically we want to make sure that when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1540s"},{"start_seconds":1546,"text":"you vouch that a certain piece of data is available we want to make sure that at the very least you've downloaded it and it's on your computer and so we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1546s"},{"start_seconds":1556,"text":"this scheme which involves custody bits and the idea here is that we to make the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1556s"},{"start_seconds":1563,"text":"data kind of specific to you you have some sort of fingerprint which is unique to you and the data we will sample a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1563s"},{"start_seconds":1571,"text":"will ask the validator to sample a private key which is unique to them and then mix the private key with the data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1571s"},{"start_seconds":1579,"text":"and then kind of extract the so-called custody bit which is going to be the the fingerprints unique to the to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1579s"},{"start_seconds":1586,"text":"validator and we're going to assign value to this private key in such a way","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1586s"},{"start_seconds":1593,"text":"that if the validator is being lazy and wants to outsource the work of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1593s"},{"start_seconds":1602,"text":"extracting this this custody bit to someone else then they have to give them the private key and and they stand to lose the funds and if they want to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1602s"},{"start_seconds":1611,"text":"lazy and more direct approach where they you know they don't bother with the custody bit and they kind of choose it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1611s"},{"start_seconds":1619,"text":"at random and half the time but they stand to be to be slashed so what one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1619s"},{"start_seconds":1626,"text":"interesting thing is that this this the same idea can actually apply to execution as well so what you can do is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1626s"},{"start_seconds":1635,"text":"that you can basically what you want to do is you want to force every validator to to go through the execution when they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1635s"},{"start_seconds":1645,"text":"receive a block as opposed to looking at whatever validators say is the end","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1645s"},{"start_seconds":1652,"text":"result of an execution and just voting for that and so what you can do there is you can take the execution trace of a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1652s"},{"start_seconds":1662,"text":"block from one state route to another and in the execution trace you mix in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1662s"},{"start_seconds":1670,"text":"the this this private key that I was talking about and then you'll have basically an execution trace which is unique to you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1670s"},{"start_seconds":1677,"text":"and you basically proving to the network that you have made the execution and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1677s"},{"start_seconds":1685,"text":"we can potentially reduce the the security assumptions for both date","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1685s"},{"start_seconds":1692,"text":"availability and an execution and the other question is how do we prevent Forks so I guess there's this two places","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1692s"},{"start_seconds":1700,"text":"where folks can happen one is on the beacon chain which is the system chain comment to all the shards and then you have a place where they can be focus in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1700s"},{"start_seconds":1708,"text":"the shots so in the beacon chain we kind of have a so-called hybrid focus rule so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1708s"},{"start_seconds":1716,"text":"we have a mechanism which is called lmd ghost which is kind of the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1716s"},{"start_seconds":1725,"text":"short-term mechanism and you can you can think of it as a basically an upgrade to the the longest chain rule to Bitcoin is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1725s"},{"start_seconds":1734,"text":"just a slightly better mechanism which incorporates more information than just the longest chain and in addition to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1734s"},{"start_seconds":1741,"text":"that we have a finality gadget which is a Casper FFG which you know every every epoch in the best case so every few","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1741s"},{"start_seconds":1750,"text":"minutes will basically economically finalize the chain meaning that if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1750s"},{"start_seconds":1756,"text":"there's two finalized points in the in the beacon chain which are conflicting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1756s"},{"start_seconds":1765,"text":"with each other then at least one third of the total validated pool will get slashed and hopefully there'll be billions and billions of dollars in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1765s"},{"start_seconds":1773,"text":"validator pool so that one third is a very very meaningful portion to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1773s"},{"start_seconds":1780,"text":"smashed and then in in the shards what happens is that the shards are kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1780s"},{"start_seconds":1786,"text":"dependent on the beacon change so if if the beacon chain folks then kind of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1786s"},{"start_seconds":1795,"text":"the the the shards may have to fork with it well if if the the beacon change that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1795s"},{"start_seconds":1803,"text":"doesn't fork and just continues them the shards can have a shorter local","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1803s"},{"start_seconds":1810,"text":"local folks and and these are resolved in the same way as the beacon chain so with the idea of LMD ghost which is just this upgrade to the longest chain rule","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1810s"},{"start_seconds":1819,"text":"and the the waiting that we use is basically economic weights by stake as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1819s"},{"start_seconds":1829,"text":"opposed to using you know thermodynamic weight as in as in proof of work hmm and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1829s"},{"start_seconds":1838,"text":"the and the state validity so what happens if one of the charge gets corrupted and they produce an invalid","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1838s"},{"start_seconds":1845,"text":"look and it gets on the beacon chain I'm sure there's gonna be can chain yeah so hopefully that that that should not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1845s"},{"start_seconds":1852,"text":"happen if if our assumptions are correct all security assumptions if if it does happen for some reason or another some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1852s"},{"start_seconds":1862,"text":"sort of exceptional condition then in in at least phase two we will have to do a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1862s"},{"start_seconds":1868,"text":"manual rollback and that that would be really bad because we'd have to manually rollback the beacon chain and hence","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1868s"},{"start_seconds":1876,"text":"manual roll back the whole if you're my point narrow system and even worse than that we will have to roll back the finality","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1876s"},{"start_seconds":1884,"text":"gadget because the finality gadget is not aware of data availability so in a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1884s"},{"start_seconds":1891,"text":"way producing an invalid so-called cross","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1891s"},{"start_seconds":1897,"text":"link from from invalid your unavailable","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1897s"},{"start_seconds":1904,"text":"data when invalid state transition from Mashhad is is very very bad in looking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1904s"},{"start_seconds":1911,"text":"kind of more towards the future for FM three point oh or maybe phase three plus","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1911s"},{"start_seconds":1917,"text":"we have this mechanism which we call data availability proofs which uses the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1917s"},{"start_seconds":1925,"text":"erasure codes and it's kind of interesting because it's a it's a different way to think of data availability like you can think of it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1925s"},{"start_seconds":1933,"text":"objectively from the point of view of the validators or you can think of it subjectively from the point of view","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1933s"},{"start_seconds":1940,"text":"of the of the nodes of the users of the network themselves and so we have this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1940s"},{"start_seconds":1947,"text":"scheme where the users of the network themselves can determine whether a cross","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1947s"},{"start_seconds":1955,"text":"link is available or not available just by querying the the network in doing this statistical analysis and so then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1955s"},{"start_seconds":1964,"text":"the clients themselves if they see a bad cross link in the beacon chain can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1964s"},{"start_seconds":1972,"text":"automatically fall away and just ignore that that branch which is an interesting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1972s"},{"start_seconds":1979,"text":"way of enforcing things where the usual model is you know you just trusted validators because you have this honesty assumption and they will do all the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1979s"},{"start_seconds":1987,"text":"enforcing and there's a question from the audience which is what is the definition of the security assumption under which the invalid cross link is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1987s"},{"start_seconds":1995,"text":"unlikely yeah so basically we have this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=1995s"},{"start_seconds":2003,"text":"this pool of validators the the main pool and beacon chain which we assume","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2003s"},{"start_seconds":2009,"text":"some fraction is is honest and then we we do sampling on that so the sampling","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2009s"},{"start_seconds":2017,"text":"mechanism basically involves two things one is two parameters one parameter is going to be how big your committee is so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2017s"},{"start_seconds":2024,"text":"the bigger the committee is the the better because it means that your community will be more statistically representative of the wider pool so you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2024s"},{"start_seconds":2033,"text":"have smaller variance and and that's better for security the other consideration is going to be the quality","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2033s"},{"start_seconds":2040,"text":"of your randomness so if you're the randomness that is generated in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2040s"},{"start_seconds":2047,"text":"beacon chain has some many probability baked them that they need to take that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2047s"},{"start_seconds":2052,"text":"into account also this is the I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2052s"},{"start_seconds":2060,"text":"the question was I was assuming that the percentage of the people so you said it's a honesty assumption right so assuming that people are honest and not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2060s"},{"start_seconds":2068,"text":"corruptible or is the assumption that they not corruptible fast enough aha I see yeah so we have a resampling","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2068s"},{"start_seconds":2079,"text":"of a of a new committee every epoch which is on the order of six minutes and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2079s"},{"start_seconds":2086,"text":"the question I have here is so for cross-links in particular do we need a majority of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2086s"},{"start_seconds":2092,"text":"the committee for that chart to be in favor of it yes it's the one thing I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2092s"},{"start_seconds":2100,"text":"couldn't understand about the spec because see the general rule for the shot itself is an ugly ghost but then what's the rule when we have this cross","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2100s"},{"start_seconds":2108,"text":"look sick yeah that's right so there needs to be a majority and specifically we have two-thirds so it's a quite a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2108s"},{"start_seconds":2117,"text":"conservative threshold so your typical cross link for it to where it's normally for other things in the birthing cabin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2117s"},{"start_seconds":2125,"text":"later right so you have this this kind of discrete voting which happens on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2125s"},{"start_seconds":2133,"text":"Perito basis and the voting is only meaningful you only create a cross link if you reached as very conservative threshold of two ferrets and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2133s"},{"start_seconds":2141,"text":"there's this more continuous and fine-grained voting which happened on the first log basis and this is going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2141s"},{"start_seconds":2148,"text":"be lmd ghost to try and resolve short term folks on the shorts but it's still the case for availability that we need","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2148s"},{"start_seconds":2155,"text":"justice or validity favorable ability we needed an honest member of the majority that agreed to this that said this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2155s"},{"start_seconds":2162,"text":"wicked yes at least to be sure that we're going to you and this is the problem for polkadot is that we really didn't want to assume an honest majority","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2162s"},{"start_seconds":2171,"text":"of one hundredth of our validators even random it can be the case that because they know who each other is you know the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2171s"},{"start_seconds":2181,"text":"bad guys could just have a small presenter to state wait until they own some committee yeah so that's a problem that we don't have any firm because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2181s"},{"start_seconds":2188,"text":"we're assuming hundreds of thousands or even you know close to a million validators and also if you awaken by snake it depends a bit on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2188s"},{"start_seconds":2197,"text":"distribution right yes so there were for sure there will be a lot of players and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2197s"},{"start_seconds":2204,"text":"smaller cares but we assume that you know the large players you know at least non in isolation can can reach the required","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2204s"},{"start_seconds":2214,"text":"threshold if a majority of any shot that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2214s"},{"start_seconds":2221,"text":"each six minute interval yeah when we did we could get that so the thing is that what we do is that we the we break","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2221s"},{"start_seconds":2230,"text":"down every single validator as in economic validators and one entity we break it down into multiple","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2230s"},{"start_seconds":2238,"text":"validators in 32 if trunks so every validator has the the same amount of stake right yes it's clean we had to do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2238s"},{"start_seconds":2247,"text":"four polka dots it means a particular validator election it's very different than it was in sight cosmos because we want all our protectors to be equal but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2247s"},{"start_seconds":2256,"text":"how do we eat but does that mean the validator with thousands of s needs to be able to run on a hundred yards","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2256s"},{"start_seconds":2262,"text":"simultaneous yes well that is one of nice properties is that we have fairness so the little guy who only has thirty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2262s"},{"start_seconds":2270,"text":"two if you know they should be doing a small amount of work they should only be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2270s"},{"start_seconds":2278,"text":"validating one single shot if you're in a whale with 32,000 if then you know you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2278s"},{"start_seconds":2284,"text":"should be doing much more work pro rata to to the games that you you're making and so you should be basically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2284s"},{"start_seconds":2292,"text":"validating on every single shot and so another interesting question here is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2292s"},{"start_seconds":2300,"text":"that's not something that is applicable to cause on site because in cost as well it is done rotate they assigned to the to the zone and so they have the state","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2300s"},{"start_seconds":2307,"text":"right in a theorem and polka dot the validators rotate naturally they cannot have the full state of the voltage","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2307s"},{"start_seconds":2315,"text":"charge right and so in so you're saying adjusting and the theory of the rotating every six minutes right so what do you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2315s"},{"start_seconds":2322,"text":"think will be the meaningful what is gonna be the number of firsts right how do you think of the size of the state of it short and how much time do you think the validities will need to download it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2322s"},{"start_seconds":2331,"text":"as they as they rotate aha so we have a very nice separation of concerns between","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2331s"},{"start_seconds":2339,"text":"and the security of cross-links where we have these cross-links committees which shuffled extremely fast and the notion","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2339s"},{"start_seconds":2348,"text":"of a persistent committee which is assigned to a shard on on a longer-term basis you know on the order of days and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2348s"},{"start_seconds":2355,"text":"they are assumed to have the the full state now the way that we kind of reconciled to is through the notion of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2355s"},{"start_seconds":2365,"text":"what I call hybrid statelessness so you have the persistent committees you have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2365s"},{"start_seconds":2372,"text":"who download the full state and you know that could be on the order of hundreds of megabytes you know probably not much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2372s"},{"start_seconds":2379,"text":"more than a gigabyte and by having all the state which they can easily sync in nine days they can make very good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2379s"},{"start_seconds":2387,"text":"informed decisions about inclusion of transactions you know so they can prioritize things relative to gas and things like that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2387s"},{"start_seconds":2395,"text":"the crosslink committees they don't care about the full state the only thing they care about is the state that is involved","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2395s"},{"start_seconds":2405,"text":"in the state transitions in the current epoch which is going to be a much smaller subset and this much smaller","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2405s"},{"start_seconds":2412,"text":"subset you can provide merkel proofs for every single piece of states that is accessed and so this is going back to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2412s"},{"start_seconds":2420,"text":"the stateless client approach where the the Crossland committees don't have any states and so this is why I call it the hybrid approach where on the one hand","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2420s"},{"start_seconds":2429,"text":"you have the Christian committees which are stateless and on the other hand you have the persistent committees which are stateful but of course this means that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2429s"},{"start_seconds":2437,"text":"the crosslink committees don't know that this is in their building on its available no they do because they will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2437s"},{"start_seconds":2447,"text":"make sure to download the blocks and download the yeah download the blocks is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2447s"},{"start_seconds":2455,"text":"the main thing but also download the states which is involved in state transitions right yeah since the last cross link or something","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2455s"},{"start_seconds":2463,"text":"like that okay that makes it so so you get polka dot validators have a a similar relationship with no chains we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2463s"},{"start_seconds":2472,"text":"would take them very quickly and they basically only process my client proofs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2472s"},{"start_seconds":2477,"text":"that the DS locks are valid is there any what they call a there's got the full","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2477s"},{"start_seconds":2485,"text":"state right so it is very similar very slowly to the power change we'll have the whole state right that's what Justin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2485s"},{"start_seconds":2492,"text":"called hybrid yes it's the same mm-hmm and so from here I think the thing that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2492s"},{"start_seconds":2501,"text":"seemed to come from so now cross-linked amigas actually validate the validity of every block right yes I see okay that makes sense","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2501s"},{"start_seconds":2509,"text":"cool and so the next question and this is I think where it becomes the most interesting is the chain thought","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2509s"},{"start_seconds":2516,"text":"independent right they in a sense that they're not isolated they communicate with each other right so how is atomicity of cross our transactions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2516s"},{"start_seconds":2524,"text":"insured and so two questions here's one how quickly cross our transactions can happen so what what does what does a shard need to wait for before executing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2524s"},{"start_seconds":2533,"text":"a transaction which initiated on a different chart and the second question is are the atomic by design oh and if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2533s"},{"start_seconds":2540,"text":"yes how it is how it is insured and zakian let's start with cosmos are you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2540s"},{"start_seconds":2550,"text":"still muted so our our cross chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2550s"},{"start_seconds":2556,"text":"transactions atomic so cross change so what we are what the IBC protocol the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2556s"},{"start_seconds":2565,"text":"inter box in communication protocol which has has has similarities to cross","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2565s"},{"start_seconds":2575,"text":"linking in in its in its in its nature it's at the lowest level specifies sort","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2575s"},{"start_seconds":2584,"text":"of broadcast only protocol which is which is you know similar to UDP in terms of internet packets and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2584s"},{"start_seconds":2593,"text":"essentially doesn't provide atomicity guarantees but then the idea is is that the heart that the higher","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2593s"},{"start_seconds":2602,"text":"protocols that specify for instance token transfers or other kinds of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2602s"},{"start_seconds":2608,"text":"messages can specify need for acknowledgments and acknowledgments then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2608s"},{"start_seconds":2616,"text":"provide the way of bootstrapping atomic transaction so where where where the transaction were the state machines only","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2616s"},{"start_seconds":2624,"text":"advanced on mutual acknowledgment that a packet has been received and so in a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2624s"},{"start_seconds":2632,"text":"disaster situation at one of the zones so let's say there was two zones right zone and Zone B and there was some sort of there was not out sort of higher","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2632s"},{"start_seconds":2642,"text":"level protocol which allowed the transfer from a to zone B but let's say that then there was a disastrous event and turns out that Zone A at some point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2642s"},{"start_seconds":2650,"text":"in the past was corrupted so at that point will it not be allowed to revert to the previous state okay so what let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2650s"},{"start_seconds":2657,"text":"talk about two things so as I have said that cosmos doesn't do anything to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2657s"},{"start_seconds":2664,"text":"guarantee data availability and so because of the fact that we don't have any get data availability guarantees it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2664s"},{"start_seconds":2672,"text":"is and we do not have really any guarantee of rightness nor is the lack of availability and the lack of limas","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2672s"},{"start_seconds":2680,"text":"really distinguishable from each other in a synchronous setting so first thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2680s"},{"start_seconds":2688,"text":"that first thing that would happen is the first thing that would happen would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2688s"},{"start_seconds":2696,"text":"be the would be the the first thing that would happen would be the sorry first","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2696s"},{"start_seconds":2706,"text":"thing that would happen would be okay so you you send a packet to attack you send a token to from zone a design B in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2706s"},{"start_seconds":2713,"text":"process of sending the pocket then B never responds or the response is not available to Zone A within some try not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2713s"},{"start_seconds":2720,"text":"and if the higher level protocol specifies that acknowledgments are needed if zone being there if the token","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2720s"},{"start_seconds":2730,"text":"does not propagate back to zombie in in the you know sufficient I'm playing then the token on zone'","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2730s"},{"start_seconds":2740,"text":"would probably be unfrozen by the higher level protocol the second question is is is there a mechanism in order for there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2740s"},{"start_seconds":2749,"text":"to be to revert an invalid state so from the point of view of IBC and the inter","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2749s"},{"start_seconds":2757,"text":"box chain protocol any state in which there is consensus is canonically valid","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2757s"},{"start_seconds":2764,"text":"we don't make it we don't define state in terms of some state machine in the base layer protocol so if the validator","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2764s"},{"start_seconds":2774,"text":"set does so the the validators the cosmoses ibc is not designed for a system where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2774s"},{"start_seconds":2782,"text":"let's say block hype you know 1000 the validator saw 2/3 the validator signs off on an invalid state besides they've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2782s"},{"start_seconds":2790,"text":"made a horrible mistake and decides to sign off on a new block 1000 the if they decided if something went wrong let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2790s"},{"start_seconds":2799,"text":"say there was a programming error or something else went wrong in the system and that same validators have decided","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2799s"},{"start_seconds":2806,"text":"they would probably just do some sort of upgrade or out-of-band change that reverse the stated state machine while","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2806s"},{"start_seconds":2813,"text":"preserving the a block if the inner chain communication protocol has ever shown two blocks at the same height both","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2813s"},{"start_seconds":2822,"text":"signed off by two thirds of the validator set that would automatically fall next make sense cool so suggestion","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2822s"},{"start_seconds":2832,"text":"what are the what do shards wait for before the process the cursor transactions on how's that the me city","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2832s"},{"start_seconds":2840,"text":"guaranteed right so so one interesting thing is that in the film Tipu no we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2840s"},{"start_seconds":2848,"text":"have no find notion of transaction so this is a bit of a controversial statement but we have no transactions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2848s"},{"start_seconds":2857,"text":"and so if you want to have a notion of transaction that is at the application layer and you know there's a million","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2857s"},{"start_seconds":2864,"text":"ways to do transactions and there's all poor trade-offs that you can take so I am thinking of Tunder stood this can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2864s"},{"start_seconds":2873,"text":"you explain a little bit more about how transactions don't exist right so like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2873s"},{"start_seconds":2883,"text":"one way of thinking of a transaction is that you have you have either multiple","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2883s"},{"start_seconds":2892,"text":"things as part of the transaction you have for example a signature you can have a replay protection mechanism which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2892s"},{"start_seconds":2899,"text":"is a nonce you have some efj to pay for the gas add some sort of you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2899s"},{"start_seconds":2909,"text":"destination which is pointing to a contract and it turns out that all these various sub components of a transaction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2909s"},{"start_seconds":2918,"text":"can be abstracted away so instead of enshrining a specific signature scheme","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2918s"},{"start_seconds":2926,"text":"such as ECDSA or the other signatures you can have a script you can have a contract itself specify its own","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2926s"},{"start_seconds":2936,"text":"signature scheme so you know the contract just receives data like a blob of data and then it it might say okay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2936s"},{"start_seconds":2944,"text":"you know the the last you know whatever 100 bytes or the signature and I will have my own custom logic for that well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2944s"},{"start_seconds":2952,"text":"this has several advantages one is that it simplifies the consensus layer is now the consensus layer only needs to have a notion of a virtual machine you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2952s"},{"start_seconds":2962,"text":"such as web assembly and it doesn't need you know to to include things like ECDSA","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2962s"},{"start_seconds":2969,"text":"the other reason why this is valuable is that it's it's it's strictly more powerful it's more flexible so you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2969s"},{"start_seconds":2978,"text":"when you take signatures specifically it allows for if the application layer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2978s"},{"start_seconds":2985,"text":"wants to quantum safe signatures so you can have a hash based signature scheme","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2985s"},{"start_seconds":2992,"text":"and if suddenly quantum computers come along then at least not all over fear will come crumbling down instead you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=2992s"},{"start_seconds":3001,"text":"know each individual application can can choose to upgrade at the letter so in if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3001s"},{"start_seconds":3009,"text":"your entry point now is there like an on chain application way or code base and then there's like sort of user provided","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3009s"},{"start_seconds":3018,"text":"data blobs that invoke that application code base is that how to understand it now the only thing that we have in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3018s"},{"start_seconds":3026,"text":"film 2.0 is the notion of a contract okay which has code and storage contract","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3026s"},{"start_seconds":3035,"text":"calls okay and that's it got it and then you can if you want to have a notion of transaction then you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3035s"},{"start_seconds":3043,"text":"you can have your own replay production mechanism and whatnot don't deal with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3043s"},{"start_seconds":3049,"text":"gas in the bottle right how do we stop the spam of people if you have some very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3049s"},{"start_seconds":3055,"text":"long process to check signatures I so yeah I have two questions I don't understand how gas works in in polka dot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3055s"},{"start_seconds":3064,"text":"and I don't understand how gas works in adhering to corner so both of you could explain it to me it would be great yes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3064s"},{"start_seconds":3072,"text":"there needs to be some basic functionality for gas and that is something that that we provide one is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3072s"},{"start_seconds":3082,"text":"that we need to have like you know metering of the opcodes so that we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3082s"},{"start_seconds":3089,"text":"a notion of a gas limit and that there is no spam the other thing that we need","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3089s"},{"start_seconds":3096,"text":"which is just slightly more subtle is that we need to protect the block","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3096s"},{"start_seconds":3105,"text":"proposal so those who will select the transactions and put them in I said transactions but you know select the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3105s"},{"start_seconds":3113,"text":"contract calls and put them in a block against the denial of service attack where basically they do they do a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3113s"},{"start_seconds":3121,"text":"work and they're not guaranteed to get paid now it turns out that this problem already happens where the film 1.0 so if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3121s"},{"start_seconds":3129,"text":"you gossip a transaction with a bad signature they you're wasting CPU cycles of whoever is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3129s"},{"start_seconds":3139,"text":"going to be receiving the transaction and checking the the the signature and seeing that it is wrong","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3139s"},{"start_seconds":3146,"text":"the nice thing about ECDSA is that there's a this kind of a cap there's a maximum amount of work that you that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3146s"},{"start_seconds":3153,"text":"you're going to waste and so one of the things that we want to do in the film 2.0 is to provide a similar invariance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3153s"},{"start_seconds":3162,"text":"so when you receive a transaction as the blog proposer you know how much CP how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3162s"},{"start_seconds":3170,"text":"many CPU cycles in the worst case you're going to be wasting and not getting paid","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3170s"},{"start_seconds":3177,"text":"yeah so a serious issue for things like z cache I think I've no idea how they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3177s"},{"start_seconds":3184,"text":"solve it because but in a theory 1.0 it it's easy anyway a poker code every","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3184s"},{"start_seconds":3195,"text":"power chain has their own notion there is no system white version of gas so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3195s"},{"start_seconds":3207,"text":"okay so I have a question about that so if there's no system wide payment of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3207s"},{"start_seconds":3214,"text":"gas how do the non collator validators that are randomly elected get paid for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3214s"},{"start_seconds":3220,"text":"their work the validators get paid well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3220s"},{"start_seconds":3227,"text":"they basically get paid along on the real agent they're real a chain bio-datas they stake in dots and they get paid in dots and there are limits on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3227s"},{"start_seconds":3237,"text":"a single block okay so a bar there is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3237s"},{"start_seconds":3243,"text":"but a new magic okay like it gets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3243s"},{"start_seconds":3254,"text":"exceeded in in the in terms of doing the during execution the validators do not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3254s"},{"start_seconds":3262,"text":"don't sign and therefore the block neveress in is never far away that's right yeah there is some probably","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3262s"},{"start_seconds":3271,"text":"quite subjective limit on when on how much how much computation time is too","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3271s"},{"start_seconds":3277,"text":"much for a look yeah we haven't fully dealt with this in tender mint yet it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3277s"},{"start_seconds":3286,"text":"there's there's definitely briefing from malicious proposers in tender but right now it's it's it's something that we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3286s"},{"start_seconds":3294,"text":"probably that we have to deal with eventually yeah we find it's very difficult to it is actually gas the gas bottle has certain surprising","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3294s"},{"start_seconds":3302,"text":"transactions and the relay chain isn't gonna have any support contracts at all but we need to be careful in pricing things maybe I should probably out ask answer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3302s"},{"start_seconds":3310,"text":"the question about messages sure that a transceiver polka dot yeah so the way message passing synchronizing a polka","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3310s"},{"start_seconds":3319,"text":"dot works actually much simpler than many other systems so because every sort of state the state of the relay change","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3319s"},{"start_seconds":3326,"text":"to who defines what parity in Laxus happened so apparent so you know approaching lockers happen when it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3326s"},{"start_seconds":3334,"text":"happens on the beam a chain and each pairing block can send out messages to other proteins and then when the other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3334s"},{"start_seconds":3341,"text":"protein comes to build on that that being a chaining hash it has to act on this message does not that condom","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3341s"},{"start_seconds":3352,"text":"message right if it does not you know there's a set of messages that it should be acting on and it's not accepted if it doesn't act on this message there will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3352s"},{"start_seconds":3361,"text":"be sort of hashes and signals on the relay chain to say that we get we have a message from this all the messages of this block hash up to this of this vocal","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3361s"},{"start_seconds":3368,"text":"root so we can bear a chance right and let's say that in one at the particular","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3368s"},{"start_seconds":3376,"text":"height of the relay team all that you want power chains send some cross chain communication to one of them all right if that one will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3376s"},{"start_seconds":3384,"text":"will not be able to deal with all the messages in one that one has to deal with all the messages that's the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3384s"},{"start_seconds":3392,"text":"difficulty price if you want to work out how to launch a but what could it be the lower bound of purchasing all the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3392s"},{"start_seconds":3400,"text":"messages and the upper bar of there's also the separate bones we just discussed on the only gas so it couldn't be that the the gas mount is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3400s"},{"start_seconds":3407,"text":"below the the lower bound of how many messages you need to process innovative to the farmers messages you can pass a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3407s"},{"start_seconds":3414,"text":"you can send out ways to prepare attained to sort of block another power chain I'm sparing it and just make","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3414s"},{"start_seconds":3422,"text":"eleven but fundamentally we should be acting on all messages to get sent to us","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3422s"},{"start_seconds":3430,"text":"even if what we're doing is buffering them tax one later there's no way messages could go missing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3430s"},{"start_seconds":3439,"text":"right so this concept of manual rollback who Justin was describing recently in polka dot that's that's implemented on the protocol level right if even a valid","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3439s"},{"start_seconds":3448,"text":"look is detected in the past we were all back hopefully will detect nearby blocks and certainly we need before we defer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3448s"},{"start_seconds":3457,"text":"this is one of the reasons why we actually want to find out to catch it on top of that yes the on top of it that's low above production mechanism unlike","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3457s"},{"start_seconds":3465,"text":"easy tendonman is that we want some extra time to roll back if we have to what is it certainly","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3465s"},{"start_seconds":3474,"text":"much more ugly to build backbones we've actually find my something yeah Justin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3474s"},{"start_seconds":3482,"text":"your response I actually means the maybe didn't answer maybe I just missed it but so even if we abstract out the quantum","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3482s"},{"start_seconds":3490,"text":"of transactions try these two star-crossed Chang communication and do they do the quarters define what they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3490s"},{"start_seconds":3498,"text":"want to see on the one another short in order to proceed or or is there some predefined condition under which the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3498s"},{"start_seconds":3504,"text":"the the multi chain execution will happen right so in terms of what layer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3504s"},{"start_seconds":3512,"text":"one provides is a synchronous cross","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3512s"},{"start_seconds":3519,"text":"short contract calls so you can have a contract on short a makes a call to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3519s"},{"start_seconds":3528,"text":"contract on short be send some if in addition to making the call and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3528s"},{"start_seconds":3534,"text":"and that goes in in a in a cross-linked","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3534s"},{"start_seconds":3541,"text":"and then one shall be is aware the cross-linked you know the they can call call the data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3541s"},{"start_seconds":3549,"text":"from the cross-linked and make the call and the approximately once and once an","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3549s"},{"start_seconds":3557,"text":"epoch not want it right that once per slot right yeah so it's the the communication at Lane order of epochs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3557s"},{"start_seconds":3564,"text":"which is on the order of minutes now all of this is layer one infrastructure which has in a way nothing to do with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3564s"},{"start_seconds":3571,"text":"transactions if you if you think of transact and you have this whole design space and so you can you can choose a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3571s"},{"start_seconds":3581,"text":"set of trade-offs you know you can you'll be trading off things like latency and and security exit e so one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3581s"},{"start_seconds":3591,"text":"of the things it you know it's totally possible for example to have a channel that is open between two contracts on on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3591s"},{"start_seconds":3601,"text":"two different shots and here the notional transaction would you know would be instantaneous but you can also","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3601s"},{"start_seconds":3610,"text":"have one one idea which is which is interesting is the the idea of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3610s"},{"start_seconds":3619,"text":"optimistic cross link so you these crossings are super high security but they take a bit of time but it turns out","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3619s"},{"start_seconds":3626,"text":"there's there's a gradient between a cross link being totally finalized and no cross link at all so you can start","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3626s"},{"start_seconds":3635,"text":"looking and at the votes that the individual validate is in the shard make and you can look at kind of the data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3635s"},{"start_seconds":3643,"text":"stations piling on and you can use heuristics to which are much lower","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3643s"},{"start_seconds":3651,"text":"latency to make decisions as to which cross link is is most likely to come in and you know we're talking the orders of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3651s"},{"start_seconds":3661,"text":"magnitude is probably you know 99.9% certainty that a cross link will eventually be finalized you know on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3661s"},{"start_seconds":3669,"text":"order of seconds that's kind of the guarantees that we want to provide but if you want for 100% guarantees then you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3669s"},{"start_seconds":3678,"text":"have to wait the full epic things about copula is sort of we can act on things after warm log so it might be we get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3678s"},{"start_seconds":3687,"text":"about 15 seconds to censor from one chain to another and it is not finalized but we can send lots of messages back and forwards and finalize them all at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3687s"},{"start_seconds":3695,"text":"the same time because the share state right so we we don't have the luxury of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3695s"},{"start_seconds":3704,"text":"having every shard be aware of every other shot on a slot by slot level simply because we have you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3704s"},{"start_seconds":3711,"text":"know a thousand shards and and that would be you know the quadratic well it would be too much information to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3711s"},{"start_seconds":3719,"text":"communicate what we do allow is on in an opt-in basis at the application layer if","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3719s"},{"start_seconds":3725,"text":"shot a wants to be aware of shall be on a slope by stop basis it can do that but it's kind of an opt-in thing and we let","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3725s"},{"start_seconds":3734,"text":"the market kind of determine what are the most valuable routes in in this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3734s"},{"start_seconds":3740,"text":"complete graph of shots there's a question from the audience I think that's the question","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3740s"},{"start_seconds":3746,"text":"to Justin which is if it is the case right so if a single sort gets corrupted right then we would have to get to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3746s"},{"start_seconds":3755,"text":"source of consensus later if they appoint valid state transition so if that if we already have to resort proposal consensus in the case where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3755s"},{"start_seconds":3763,"text":"some threshold of valid well it is corrupted why do we need the finality gadget on the beacon chain to begin with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3763s"},{"start_seconds":3770,"text":"that make sense so if we have to resort","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3770s"},{"start_seconds":3779,"text":"to the social layer I've heard there was some sort of bug you know though in the implementation that we can we can fix","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3779s"},{"start_seconds":3787,"text":"and you know deal on the ad hoc basis or you know we're not meeting the security","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3787s"},{"start_seconds":3794,"text":"assumptions and if it's if it's the latter case then you know we're just we're because there's nothing you know our","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3794s"},{"start_seconds":3802,"text":"system would I mean one thing I guess we could do is we could we could hard fork and make the thresholds more aggressive","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3802s"},{"start_seconds":3809,"text":"so instead of having a 2/3 threshold on the crosslink we could have a 3/4 special order or whatever I mean the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3809s"},{"start_seconds":3816,"text":"trade-off there is that we we would lose on lightness and we it would be potentially higher latency to make","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3816s"},{"start_seconds":3823,"text":"cross-links but you know if the the reverting to the social layer is really a an extreme thing and hopefully we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3823s"},{"start_seconds":3831,"text":"won't have to resort to that I mean one of the we're looking kind of too hard on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3831s"},{"start_seconds":3838,"text":"the system in in in this aspect and to to minimize the possibility of having to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3838s"},{"start_seconds":3844,"text":"resort to these manual roll boxes is also improving the randomness and so that's that ties in with there in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3844s"},{"start_seconds":3853,"text":"vdf roadmap where we're basically upgrading from random which is which has some amount of manipulation and then the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3853s"},{"start_seconds":3862,"text":"amount of manipulation kind of grows with the amount with the size of the attacker to a random as beacon which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3862s"},{"start_seconds":3871,"text":"which has which has no manipulation basically regardless at this time okay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3871s"},{"start_seconds":3881,"text":"so let's let's wrap up the panel that was that was very informative I guess I hope and for everybody and as the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3881s"},{"start_seconds":3890,"text":"closing note if there's anything exciting happening in your ecosystem that you would like to share with the communities that would be a great opportunity to do so or otherwise just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3890s"},{"start_seconds":3898,"text":"just a couple final words and we can start with zaki absolutely say yes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3898s"},{"start_seconds":3906,"text":"thanks for this I actually got some questions I've I had wanted answers to for a long time answered so that was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3906s"},{"start_seconds":3913,"text":"really helpful for me about both the polka dot and a theorem 2.0 designs let's see what's going on and what's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3913s"},{"start_seconds":3921,"text":"going on in the cosmos you guys it's done you know like I said the you know or what I would you know always","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3921s"},{"start_seconds":3930,"text":"characterize the cosmos ecosystem is is we sher largely the same goals as both the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3930s"},{"start_seconds":3937,"text":"the polka dot and a theorem 2.0 project in the sense that we want to make Byzantine fault tolerant and computation","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3937s"},{"start_seconds":3946,"text":"ubiquitous affordable available to the world and we think that is a noble endeavor and I think we all share that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3946s"},{"start_seconds":3954,"text":"we've just sort of been prioritizing things differently from other projects so our biggest priority right now is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3954s"},{"start_seconds":3962,"text":"getting this inter blockchain communication system up and running and the great progress is being made in fact","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3962s"},{"start_seconds":3970,"text":"I have a catch-up call with Christo's is the technical lead on the IBC project right after this really encourage","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3970s"},{"start_seconds":3978,"text":"everyone to just like participate in the community watch those repos everything associated with them I would also you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3978s"},{"start_seconds":3987,"text":"know we are we are trying to position the inter blockchain communication standard as something that would be will be helpful for people who are building","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3987s"},{"start_seconds":3994,"text":"chartered systems with stronger security assumptions and also for you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=3994s"},{"start_seconds":4001,"text":"systems like it here in 2.0 and polka dot which certainly do not assume that they're going to be in a closed world where they are the only chain that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4001s"},{"start_seconds":4009,"text":"exists so they will also need an interlocking communication system with the same security assumptions as our IBC","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4009s"},{"start_seconds":4017,"text":"system so we encourage everyone from all those communities to participate in our and our IV series which will probably be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4017s"},{"start_seconds":4024,"text":"the first system of its kind sort of for the 2.0 watching 2.0 world final words","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4024s"},{"start_seconds":4035,"text":"yeah no it was thank you for having me I mean III love comparing the various","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4035s"},{"start_seconds":4042,"text":"systems and the trade-off I guess one way I think of the spectrum of trade","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4042s"},{"start_seconds":4053,"text":"offs oddly with kind of cosmos on one extreme and then a firm nav extreme and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4053s"},{"start_seconds":4061,"text":"then in the middle polka dot and the you know the extremes one is kind of homogeneity and the other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4061s"},{"start_seconds":4070,"text":"one is is non-homogeneity and then you know polka dot in the middle where they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4070s"},{"start_seconds":4078,"text":"have some amount of homogeneity at least him in the in the security model but not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4078s"},{"start_seconds":4086,"text":"necessarily in the english dons or the the shout or the powertrains i mean one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4086s"},{"start_seconds":4096,"text":"of the things that's going on in in the theorem 2.0 is trying to you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4096s"},{"start_seconds":4103,"text":"collaborate more with with other blockchain projects so you know we're you know we've made this effort recently","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4103s"},{"start_seconds":4112,"text":"to try and standardize on the hash function and i think it's great that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4112s"},{"start_seconds":4120,"text":"know from a de facto point of view everyone is using sha-256 and so well you know we might as well join the crowd","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4120s"},{"start_seconds":4127,"text":"and i think that's big win we're also looking to standardize on BLS 12 381 so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4127s"},{"start_seconds":4135,"text":"again there's you know the especially in improve of state systems this this need to have efficient handling of signatures","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4135s"},{"start_seconds":4145,"text":"because you potentially have many people voting and the other signatures are you know can provide 100 X or thousand X","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4145s"},{"start_seconds":4154,"text":"scaling in that respect and the great news is that everyone seems to be converging towards a specific curve","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4154s"},{"start_seconds":4162,"text":"pl/sql 3:81 and you know i just before this panel I came out of a standardization call where we're making","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4162s"},{"start_seconds":4169,"text":"fun of progress so very happy there we're also looking to collaborate on the video project you know there'll be more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4169s"},{"start_seconds":4176,"text":"announcements there but the surface of collaboration there is pretty huge the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4176s"},{"start_seconds":4183,"text":"MPC where we're going to generate this RSA modulus and it's also going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4183s"},{"start_seconds":4190,"text":"useful for RS emulators we're going to have a distribution of hardware where we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4190s"},{"start_seconds":4199,"text":"also want many people to join we were gonna have these these competitive circuit competitions where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4199s"},{"start_seconds":4206,"text":"we want lots of people to join in and we also are looking to go but collaborate on a financial standpoint because it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4206s"},{"start_seconds":4213,"text":"it's you know it's a multi-million dollar kind of project and we could use","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4213s"},{"start_seconds":4219,"text":"help from from many different players yeah I mean the other exciting stuff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4219s"},{"start_seconds":4226,"text":"that's going on is that we're starting to put more effort on on the face - I'd","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4226s"},{"start_seconds":4235,"text":"say phase zero and phase one or you know are quite mature now and it's a matter of finding bugs and polishing and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4235s"},{"start_seconds":4244,"text":"the exciting thing about phase two is that it's it's quite challenging from a research standpoint but I'm hoping that from an implementation standpoint it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4244s"},{"start_seconds":4252,"text":"will be pretty trivial you know with all the abstraction that we've made but kind of removed complexity and we keep removing complexity and at the end of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4252s"},{"start_seconds":4261,"text":"the day you'll have I'm hoping a very thin layer on top of web assembly and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4261s"},{"start_seconds":4267,"text":"I'm kind of hoping that we'll get face to almost for free in the same way that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4267s"},{"start_seconds":4274,"text":"we got phase 1 kind of almost for free from from phase 0 well somehow is there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4274s"},{"start_seconds":4283,"text":"anything exciting happening in WebM polka dot and final words line the first thing I want to say additional","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4283s"},{"start_seconds":4290,"text":"suggestion is yeah standardization is good we kind of in favor of all this exhibit inai surface","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4290s"},{"start_seconds":4298,"text":"area of small contracts could understand the crypto were using me anyway it's a hook it on this design is quite","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4298s"},{"start_seconds":4309,"text":"ambitious and we're still a few months ahead from launch we're gonna have BT shortly and the main thing that we want to communicate is that for people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4309s"},{"start_seconds":4317,"text":"wanting to build up a hurricane parity substrate is only out there and you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4317s"},{"start_seconds":4324,"text":"start building on that soon so they know what we're doing beyond that yet we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4324s"},{"start_seconds":4334,"text":"to try and get Britt to work on bridges to work out how to talk to everyone I think this it's very easy for cause","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4334s"},{"start_seconds":4341,"text":"muscle but very hard for everyone else and that's what's going on well okay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4341s"},{"start_seconds":4351,"text":"great it's very tricky okay awesome","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4351s"},{"start_seconds":4359,"text":"so let's and here thanks everyone for watching and until next time thank you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4359s"},{"start_seconds":4368,"text":"guys","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s&t=4368s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVbV7N1s","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/MwqUVbV7N1s"}