{"id":"FPGNFDQ6rRA","title":"Protocol Work Group Call #9 - near/dev/hub","description":"In the 9th year protocol work group call, participants reviewed NEP 536 and NEP 540. \n00:00 - Intro \n4:24 - NEP 536, presented by Evgeny Kuzyakov, proposed adjustments to gas refunds\n25:35 - NEP 540, addresses storage staking adjustments.\n\nAll NEPS can be found on https://github.com/near/neps\nIf you want to get involved join our Telegram Group https://t.me/NEAR_Protocol_Community_...","channel_name":"NEAR DevHub","published_at":"2024-04-30T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/FPGNFDQ6rRA/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"hello again and welcome to the Ninth near protocol work group call uh I'm Victor uh as you all know and it's really great to see you all here again today uh really excited for us to look at NP 536 and 540 so this is our agenda for today first we'll look at the objective of the call and next we'll introduce everyone that's involved then we'll get into the the main conversation of neb 536 and then move on to neb 540 and after that we'll talk about implementation and open it up to Q&A so hey uh yeah you could get active in the comments and drop any questions you may have and now let's look at the objective for today's call so hey uh we're here to publicly vote and arrive at a verdict for net 536 and 540 uh what here to celebrate the time and effort that everyone has invested into this NP uh the four key roles in the NP process there's the author who's the person that writes the proposal and presents it to the work group the moderator who facilitates the process uh the reviewer and an approver very quickly to visualize this process there's three phases the draft review and the voting phase uh and two possible outcomes approved or rejected so before before we get into the NEP review I would like to quickly highlight the authors of this SNP uh apologies if I mispronounce your names but we have you have Genny and uh Bowen on the call who are the authors of neb 536 uh thank you all for your hard work and submitting the snap uh I'm playing the moderator role today in facilitating this call and now I would like now I would like each work group member to briefly introduce themselves uh for first time listeners uh Marcelo do you want to go first uh yeah sure uh hi everyone uh I am Marcelo I was uh working few years ago in a near protocol after that I um I was working in Aurora in the Rainbow Bridge uh and I've been yeah happy to be here of the discussion protocol upgrades uh looking forward to see all great nice uh thank you so much Marcelo um Michael you're up next sure so hello I'm Michael I follow a pretty similar path to Marcelo actually I was also a near core before joining Aurora I am still working at Aurora these days uh but I am also happy to still be active in in the near core ecosystem I still do contribute occasion Eng near Corp and uh always happy to to discuss and ultimately vote on the protocol upgrades that we do here sweet uh thanks Michael uh maren hi Marson I used to work on new core with the other folks and now I'm working on Zer knowledge proofs for matter labs zyn and yeah that's that's what I like doing on Friday evenings as a hobby looking at and deciding on them so than thank you all for coming yeah thanks for being here uh and uh Bowen uh you're up next uh yeah Bowen um working on protocal research and development for a number of years now um yeah happy to be here thank you thank you thank you um real Legends in the building today uh awesome okay so now that we have each work group member briefly introducing themselves um with that being said I would like to move on to the actual neb conversation so first we'll have one of the authors of neb 536 present a summary of the NP and why they believe it's important and then we'll have the work group discuss their findings and ultimately arrive at a decision okay great uh I would like to invite ygi uh one of the authors of this s uh to share a summary and um yeah uh the floor is all yours hey uh I am Yi I also worked on protocol a while ago um more than run time so and that code is so first let's uh talk a bit on the background why we have ref funds uh in the first place so because new is a synchronous environment when you execute a transaction uh that may take multiple blocks and by the end of the execution um the unused gas that for example was used for the function calls is being converted back to the near tokens and transferred back to the assigner of the transaction so that generated a refund for um for the unused tokens that were not spent on the transaction um there are a few types of refunds that we have uh first and that's the very simple one is refund in nearer tokens so imagine you're transferring tokens to the account but that account doesn't exist in this case um V ref fund you the tokens back to the original account not the original back to the predecessor the one that sent the assets um that's the transfer refund it also possible for the function call so when you make a function call with a deposit and that function call fails uh basically panics then the ref receipt considered uh failer and the tokens is refunded to the predecessor so we don't touch the this refunds in this particular NP um the second type of refunds are for the gas differences either in prices or on spent gas so when a refund is when a receipt is sent we charge small amount in S gas um and then we charge a second time at the execution time so imagine a race it having multiple actions and the first action fails for some reason let's say it's a function call that fails and there's multiple function calls then unexecuted actions effectively have a gas that is not being spent at the execution time so that gas is converted to near at the prepaid gas price and being sent back to the signer of the transaction the one who prepaid for all the gas of the entire transaction so because the execution is a synchron is the gas price might fluctuate between the origination when you issue the transaction and the moment when it's executed so in order to account for this historically we had um what we called pessimistic gas pricing it basically infl inflated your uh gas PR price by the difference by how much it basically can increase per block and it was like slightly higher so instead of 1% per block it was like 3% per block um so every single action like effectively in the transaction was having a higher gas price then it actually would be executed on because of a 3% difference and 1% difference um potential and even a simple transfer would generate a gas refund to the original signer for this difference of 2% in the gas pricing um that was done to fight congestion and make it a bit more expensive to spam the network work with this pessimistic gas pricing if you like SP a lot of transaction in a burst uh all paying the same amount um in reality the current mechanism of gas price increase doesn't really work well if one Shard is congested out of four then the price would not increase now with six sharts if two sharts are congested we would still not increase the gas price globally uh so there's no real protection of like this pessimistic gas price increases so at the other other time it creates the overhead of accounting for the future receipt when we estimate the parameters of the network because when you estimate how much actual compute you would spend you would have to account for all the receipts that are fly back for a simple transfer so this NP particularly eliminates the pessimistic gas price increase that's the first change we say that the transfer now will be charged at the current gas price without increase so if transfer succeeds uh there's no refund generated that would fly back to the um to the signer and that will eliminate uh kind of refund overhead of making a simple transfer it also kind of like for other simple actions that do not involve function calls that are precomputed G and succeed they also not going to generate the refunds the second change of this snap is um previously we will not charging explicitly for the cost of the gas refund SO gas refund is effectively a transfers so it has the um original cost and the um and uh act creation of action receipt so it was charged when when it was executed but not when it was sent so making explicitly charging gas for generating a refund will make gas estimation more robust now because it will not be for free or it will not be implicitly done so the second change of this snap is we introduce an explicit gas cost of the refunds but we do not change it for monitor refund so the one that flies to predecessor is still three um and the Third change that we wanted to add to this that created a discussion is whether we want to penalize um function called refunds so imagine you submit a function call uh that attaches maximum amount of gas so in this case 300 ter gas to the receiver and you only spent five of them five Tas so you have 29 5 teras remaining that previously would be sent back to um to the signer so the discussion was we wanted to penalize this AER with fixed cost which is let's say five teras of this will be burnt and that will eliminate gas refunds for function calls that spent less like that have less than five teras remaining um and that that number we wanted to increase over time that over like let's say six months or one year the fixed amount goes to 300 teras and we completely eliminate the refunds uh but that creates a problem for the Legacy contract that do not um were not conservative on gas or they had a fixed cost built into the contracts that is hard to increase or like hard to maintain and like contract might be locked so very effectively we'll start burning gas um for the action that were previously refundable that will make certain interaction more expensive especially with con Ross contract calls so the second alternative was uh we introduce the cost um of the refund in such a way that we penalize at most 5% for example of the remaining gas or some other parameter um so in this case Legacy contract will not be affected that much because um the actual refund cost that we would charge will be slightly higher than 5% of the remaining GS and only the like 300 ter gas and spend gas will be penalized which would force app developers to start thinking about um not attaching the maximum amount of gas at the other hand it's not really critical to do this because if we account for the gas refund in the actual gas cost then um that amount if will be properly estimated and will be just included in the costs so there's no real freezing for this stuff at the same time it doesn't penalize the development and Dev so that's the background and like kind of explanation of that uh awesome uh thank you so much for your summary and uh you know for submitting the proposal and uh your ongoing work throughout the process of course um super great to see okay um so yes the community has reviewed and discussed the SN on GitHub along with the work group members so next I would like to invite Michael one of the reviewers to summarize some of the advantages and concerns that we saw in the comments uh yep Michael the floor is all yours all right thank you Victor uh so yep I've as you've get covered um the the the main goal here is to reduce the overhead of having refund receipts that uh we simply don't need based on the analysis that pessimistic gas pricing isn't really accomplishing what we want anyways um so so that's that's a good thing to see and then because it is now incentivizing um users interacting with blockchain whether that's through a frontend developers building those front ends or you know directly through it through a command line um incentivizing them to not attach the maximum gas when they don't need the maximum gas is is nice because it lets us pack the blocks more efficiently the the way that the transactions end up in blocks is based on the amount of gas that it could potentially spend and so if you're attaching 300 teras but then only spending you know five of it or 10 of it we've sort of lost that 15200 teragat worth of um of block space that uh is sort of being unused um so you know penalizing the overestimation uh will help us be more efficient in that regard um and then you know this is is sort of a step in in the direction of of trying to make the um whole process more efficient by maybe eventually getting rid of gas refunds but as again said that's not necessarily something that will will aim for it's just you know an idea um and then on the other side on on the concern side of this um you know I I mentioned in the comments on GitHub that you know sort of arbitrarily choosing 5% as penalty because it feels big enough but not too big um I don't think is a great way to make decisions you know it would be nice to for it to be somehow data driven where we have some Metric and we we sort of agree that 5% optimizes this in some method or another but um obviously it's it's better to to make a decision that improves the protocol even if it's a suboptimal Improvement it's still an improvement so we don't need to Bandy around too much with the with the day driven nature of things just as as a side note it' be it'd be nice to see in the future um now because we are going to start penalizing um over estimating gas uh the flip side side of that is we need to give developers a reliable way to estimate the gas right if basically the reason today that developers attach 300 teras every time is because well you know that's that's the easiest thing to do um it's not like on other networks where you have sort of an easy RPC call to to get estimate gas for you so you don't have to think about it too much um so it would be nice to see some tooling built up around this because yes we're happy about not overestimating the gas because of the efficiency but we don't want to hurt the devx experience too much we don't want people paying for um the overestimating costs unless um you know we can give them the tools that they need to to stop overestimating um and then finally Marcelo did did point out that you know pessimistic gas gas pricing did have a role um but as as again mentioned it's it's not necessarily meaning that role and there are other neps that we're not discussing today but presumably we'll discuss in in the near future that are about congestion and about addressing congestion in a more robust way so having you know a short term where pessimistic gas pricing is is not present uh shouldn't be a a big security issue for for the protocol because again the congestion issue is going to be be addressed separately in in a timely manner excellent uh thank you so much for that Michael um thanks for sharing so now that we've heard about the advantages and the concerns of the snup uh let's take a look at each working group member's opinion uh which brings us to the voting stage So based on the neb process we need two3 majority to move forward with this neb uh we've already had each working group member provide their voting indication on the NP itself on GitHub uh but here is the summary so we had all four working group members leaning towards approval of this NB um before we formalize the decision I'd like to ask if any work group members have any final comments or concerns uh yes I can see Maron yes so so while I while I agree that we should go forward with this one thing that I mentioned GitHub is we should make sure that explorers are showing clearly that this is the additional fee that was charged because the dev apps developer included too much gas because if we don't do it people will just see like oh yeah new is simply more expensive new is more expensive and this is a different Behavior than other chains right so again if you don't do it people will be like okay the new transaction cost $2 now okay I'm going to go somewhere else without understanding that this might be coming from the fact that someone was just attaching too much gas this is not a natural thing in other chains so this would be my only request is that really we invest in Explorer wallet slways of showing users so they can also exert some pressure on the DB DB developers um comment on this um during the implementation of this I was thinking where to include this penalty so if we collude this into the burnt gas um then it will make estimators incorrectly estimate certain metrics so instead we can include this into the token burnt instead of the gas burnt so the gas burnt will only be included for um for the actual cost of the r fund but the penalty can be included into the tokens burn but not in the gas burn and that will indicate that the tokens were burnt um but the gas uh charge was less sure but we have to show it and explore very very clearly because the fact that you know this it appears from this field and not from this field like doesn't tell you much like a clear indication of like hey you're probably including too much gas Etc so said there is some work required on the Explorer side here okay uh thanks Marson and Yi for your input and um yeah thank you so much for sharing uh awesome so with that being said I would like to invite you Genny again to talk about um the next phase of implementation uh if Genny the floor is all yours right um so yeah the I might some progress on this uh but it was taking a bit too long so um some most of the implementation is done I was was working on the tests uh in with the recent change uh that introduced kind of a variable number of receipts in in standard runtime tests based on the environment so and that's just extra changes that I need to complete so um it's in progress but mostly done awesome um great okay thank you so much for that and so now that we're done with NEP 536 uh we can move on to the conversation of NEP 540 and yes uh once again I'd like to call upon Michael to share some of the benefits and concerns of this neb uh Michael do you want to go ahead thanks Victor yeah so I guess I'll I'll start with a quick summary of this one um so the I mean it's in the title but the the idea was near has this storage staking which is part of the protocol um and this is basically how you're allowed to store data on chain whether that's data for a smart contract or access keys for an account or or whatever just anytime you're storing something on Shain the there's a minimum amount of near that this account must hold to be able to have those byes reserved uh so we call the storage staking because you can uh delete that data and then your minimum balance is reduced correspondingly and so you can sort of free up those uh near if you wish um so the the idea behind this was you know it provides a persistent cost to storing things on chain because that near is is locked you can't do anything with it um but it also is recoverable in the sense that if you delete the data you you get that in your back and you can you can do other things with it so so so that was the idea um stor taking there's been a a lot of discussion about and you know there's basically we all agree it's not working as intended but we don't necessarily agree in what mechanism should replace it so there's still a lot of discussion about that uh this proposal specifically was about can we as a stop Gap measure reduce that minimum amount of near that's required on accounts on a per bite basis just to unblock development uh Bowen points out in the description of that NEP that the the cost to deploy basic contracts like a multisig contract has gotten kind of prohibitively expensive for for average users um just based on the the Fiat price of of near these days so you know first bullet point here reducing the the cost immediately give some relief to that it is it is going to immediately alleviate the impact of of near having a higher price on being able to deploy contracts to the chain um and then yeah as I said there was quite a lot of discussion on this NEP about about alternative Solutions though we haven't really come to any conclusion quite yet on them um so yeah let's let's go on to concerns um you know I I don't think that this this is a good idea because it's it creates a certain amount of risk right the the token price you know this is crypto right it's it's it's volatile it could be be up today down tomorrow who who knows right like I don't and and unfortunately the the fortunately and unfortunately the the process we have to to update these things is is a little bit slow right so there there's no way that unless there was a proposal specifically for making it Dynamic um there's no way that we can respond all the time you know so we decide to reduce it by 10x today and then the price drops back down and so okay well now let's have an NP to bring it back up like just I don't think it makes sense to to put that work on ourselves um so reducing it down I think creates the risk that um we will be undercharging for storage when uh the price changes in the future um and then yeah just this doesn't actually address any of the underlying problems with storage staking itself it is just sort of like a Band-Aid fix on top of storage Stak um and and again I just don't think the the risks introduced um make up for for the the benefits um there there's also a bullet point here about sort of potentially complicated things we could do in other um storage cost Solutions but um again we haven't really agreed on on on any of those things so I don't think it's necessarily concerned with this NEP specifically it's just a concerned with storage in general awesome uh thank you so much Michael for sharing and uh yeah so with that being said uh let's take a look at each working group memb opinion and yeah let's get to the voting stage so like I mentioned earlier the net process is based on a two-thirds majority to move forward to move forward with the snip and we've already had each working group member provide their voting indication and so yes we had all four working group members leaning towards rejecting the SNB um before we formalize the decision once again I'd like to ask does anyone have any final comments or concerns they'd like to raise yes Marson so yeah so while this is painful especially for some of developers or not necessarily developers because if de developers keep you know experimenting with their contract they don't really pay that much because as Michael said these these storage comes back Etc it's especially frustrating for more sophisticated users that want to deploy contract that already exists here the multisig was one example but there are a couple others so one thing that I hope that you know while this NEP failed one thing I hope we'll be able to deliver soon is this uh how is called like global global account Global uh code storage so that if if a given code already exists in a given Shard then users trying to deploy it should not pay twice kind of for the same storage right so so in theory having having something like that having an app like that would be a proper solution for this painful thing awesome thanks for that suggestion Marson and um yes okay great um so moving on to q&as does anyone have any additional questions they'd like to ask well maybe let's since we have people here maybe let's discuss what what is a proper solution since this is not a proper solution I mean I I I think what what Marson said about uh like Global code storage yeah I mean I think that makes sense and it might actually become easier with st validation since we do actually need to U propagate the contract anyways uh or at least in the current implementation um but but I mean I think I think I think that definitely addresses maybe a big chunk of the problem but still I think even uh just for like contract storage that's not related to contract code but there's still uh this concern that uh I think was brought up by actually by devop because devop has this uh in their contract they actually store this components right the component code and and so on so that actually is also getting expensive uh when someone needs to deoy new widgets and and so um yeah yes uh Maron yeah but actually for for the storage in contracts I actually like the fact that this is expensive as you know very well this is the biggest challenge of blockchains growing is like the State Management becomes the biggest pain and has to synchronize whatnot right and some like as you said devhub storing the code this will be like Devil's Advocate play but like hey this is a good motivation for them to do things like compressing it or maybe just storing a hash and storing the code somewhere else and then people provide the code together with the hash when they want to modify it like there are a bunch of like solutions that will only show up if this is like expensive enough of course while not going crazy right because we still don't want to like limit the the usability of the chain yeah I I mean I think I agree with the the general sentiment that it should not be too cheap otherwise we see problem we already see problems on like base and a few other rollups where like it's like you spend like the storage uh it is polygon to certain extend as well but but I think you know the I mean I I suppose partially the problem is that the price is denominating near and this can actually just become quite expensive at some point in the future uh you to like how Market Works um and ideally would you know we we want to have um a uh better mechanism somehow um to deal with and and it's actually not as easy so I mean at least I don't see easy solution where you can pack the uh price to USD because if if you if you do it naively then then like what what actually happens when the um price just like uh goes up Suddenly like your storage become invalid not not invalid like you cannot actually access your account unless you you just like uh deposit more so then that that becomes um oh sorry price goes down I mean anyways like it can create a situation where like your your account are kind of yeah not useable anymore I mean in theory if you have donative usdc and you enshrine it actually into the protocol which is like a huge separate like discussion and and use that for for storage staking that solves this part but yes there are a lot of consequence of doing yes it is very heavy lifting you're like okay let's first build this huge hammer and like we can and then we perfectly get the nail like yes another thing that was brought up as a conversation on on the N was um I think Ilia originally proposed it this idea of um sort of dehydrating and and rehydrating storage where you don't demand that the validators actually store everything at all times they they are allowed to delete State and only keep the the hash of the of the leaf in the in the try um and then you know if uh if someone needs that storage in the future they would have to pay some something to basically make some validator U make it available again um and I think that's a reasonable idea to to try to find a middle ground where you're you know not putting too much burden on validators but also if if stuff needs to be stored long term and is and is useful then um you know the natural economic activity enables it but um my main concern with that is like what the actual devx ends up looking like and how complicated it is which I assume the geni wants to talk about as well right now yeah that's a interesting proposal but like in the original protocol development it always came towards like can that be implemented on a contract level so we don't have to put it on a protocol level uh and that seems like regeration and like can actually be done on a contract level like you just store a cash and you delete it when you don't need it it's just not automatic um so maybe if we provide exposure towards some kind of like merization towards the contract then that's actually possible um but I don't think it's really necessary uh we should uh just instead yeah yeah majority of use cases actually the storage on a contract is not really need to be this large and like it mostly was designed to fight spam on tokens but then it created a pain for the tokens um but interior user should cover this and it's a onetime fee for the user and then it's became somewhat cheaper to transact multiple times instead of like having to deal like having to pay for the storage on every single call so I yeah yeah I agree on like that we should not drop it further otherwise we'll introduce the extra complexity on validators network yeah I mean I I I I think um with st viation and and charting we should not get into a situation where we still need this uh uh kind of State uh expiry um because like well first of all it's only replicated now on on you know chunk producers not on every validator most of them don't actually store the state and so you can say that the cost of replication is not lower um and also we can we will limit the size of each shart to to some reasonable number um so that yeah if there's need to have more shards and yeah there'll be like more valid just and then more shards and and and you kind of scale in that way uh rather than having to uh forget the state and then uh someone insert them back later which is like I mean it it gets complex for U for the end users right it's kind of annoying to deal with and and and also like this whoever stores the state it's not clear what incent they actually have and you actually can lead to end up in a situation where some state is just forever lost that which is definitely not optimal especially if that is like related to token balance or something like this and like people are screwed I mean it depends right in theory if you have archival notes that really kept the whole history then the state is there right if they kept read the whole history of transactions yeah but like Arch node is not you can say it's not part of the protocol right like like today the protocol like for the network to keep running forward it doesn't need an archive note sure there was also like to to address that there was also this idea of combining this with a rent model or basically you can choose between expiration or paying like renting the storage like continuously renting the storage so you know it won't expire but you need to pay for that and U yeah that was an alternative to have good deex and at the same time not let the state blo so basically only contracts that will be used will will expire and very likely they will like most of them won't come back okay okay uh yes thank you all uh really looking forward to developments on these suggestions um I think you get muted oh my apologies uh yeah uh as I was saying uh thank you to everyone involved and present on the call uh we're really excited to work together and decentralize the development of near um congratulations to the authors of neb 536 as well and so uh just before we close of the meeting I want to quickly highlight the ways you can get involved in the near developer ecosystem uh if you have a specific idea in mind feel free to submit it using Devo or any other existing communities to collaborate with you can also submit your own NEP and you can view all the nips and check out their updates on GitHub and the discussions you're also welcome to join our telegram group uh if you're watching this uh it's a great way to it's a it's a great way to connect with others and see announcements for meetings like this and you can learn about devhub on our website and stay up to date on our social channels um be posting the recording for this meeting and upcoming calls on all other social channels as well so yes uh once again thank you to everyone congratulations uh to the authors and have a great weekend","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T04:11:11.576Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":5,"text":"hello again and welcome to the Ninth near protocol work group call uh I'm Victor uh as you all know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=5s"},{"start_seconds":13,"text":"and it's really great to see you all here again today uh really excited for us to look at NP 536 and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=13s"},{"start_seconds":22,"text":"540 so this is our agenda for today first we'll look at the objective of the call and next we'll introduce everyone that's involved then we'll get into the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=22s"},{"start_seconds":30,"text":"the main conversation of neb 536 and then move on to neb 540 and after that we'll talk about implementation and open","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=30s"},{"start_seconds":38,"text":"it up to Q&A so hey uh yeah you could get active in the comments and drop any questions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=38s"},{"start_seconds":46,"text":"you may have and now let's look at the objective for today's call so hey uh we're here to publicly","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=46s"},{"start_seconds":54,"text":"vote and arrive at a verdict for net 536 and 540 uh what here to celebrate the time and effort that everyone has","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=54s"},{"start_seconds":62,"text":"invested into this NP uh the four key roles in the NP process there's the author who's the person that writes the proposal and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=62s"},{"start_seconds":70,"text":"presents it to the work group the moderator who facilitates the process uh the reviewer and an","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=70s"},{"start_seconds":77,"text":"approver very quickly to visualize this process there's three phases the draft review and the voting phase uh and two","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=77s"},{"start_seconds":84,"text":"possible outcomes approved or rejected so before before we get into the NEP review I would like to quickly","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=84s"},{"start_seconds":93,"text":"highlight the authors of this SNP uh apologies if I mispronounce your names but we have you have Genny and uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=93s"},{"start_seconds":101,"text":"Bowen on the call who are the authors of neb 536 uh thank you all for your hard work and submitting the snap uh I'm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=101s"},{"start_seconds":109,"text":"playing the moderator role today in facilitating this call and now I would like now I would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=109s"},{"start_seconds":117,"text":"like each work group member to briefly introduce themselves uh for first time listeners uh Marcelo do you want to go","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=117s"},{"start_seconds":128,"text":"first uh yeah sure uh hi everyone uh I am Marcelo I was uh working few years ago in a near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=128s"},{"start_seconds":136,"text":"protocol after that I um I was working in Aurora in the Rainbow Bridge uh and I've been yeah happy to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=136s"},{"start_seconds":146,"text":"here of the discussion protocol upgrades uh looking forward to see all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=146s"},{"start_seconds":154,"text":"great nice uh thank you so much Marcelo um Michael you're up","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=154s"},{"start_seconds":161,"text":"next sure so hello I'm Michael I follow a pretty similar path to Marcelo actually I was also a near core before","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=161s"},{"start_seconds":170,"text":"joining Aurora I am still working at Aurora these days uh but I am also happy to still be active in in the near core","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=170s"},{"start_seconds":178,"text":"ecosystem I still do contribute occasion Eng near Corp and uh always happy to to discuss and ultimately vote on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=178s"},{"start_seconds":188,"text":"protocol upgrades that we do here sweet uh thanks Michael uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=188s"},{"start_seconds":196,"text":"maren hi Marson I used to work on new core with the other folks and now I'm working on Zer knowledge proofs for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=196s"},{"start_seconds":202,"text":"matter labs zyn and yeah that's that's what I like doing on Friday evenings as a hobby looking at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=202s"},{"start_seconds":210,"text":"and deciding on them so than thank you all for coming yeah thanks for being here uh and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=210s"},{"start_seconds":218,"text":"uh Bowen uh you're up next uh yeah Bowen um working on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=218s"},{"start_seconds":225,"text":"protocal research and development for a number of years now um yeah happy to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=225s"},{"start_seconds":232,"text":"here thank you thank you thank you um real Legends in the building today uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=232s"},{"start_seconds":240,"text":"awesome okay so now that we have each work group member briefly introducing themselves um with that being said I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=240s"},{"start_seconds":247,"text":"would like to move on to the actual neb conversation so first we'll have one of the authors of neb 536 present a summary","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=247s"},{"start_seconds":256,"text":"of the NP and why they believe it's important and then we'll have the work group discuss their findings and ultimately arrive at a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=256s"},{"start_seconds":264,"text":"decision okay great uh I would like to invite ygi uh one of the authors of this s uh to share a summary and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=264s"},{"start_seconds":273,"text":"um yeah uh the floor is all yours hey uh I am Yi I also worked on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=273s"},{"start_seconds":281,"text":"protocol a while ago um more than run time so and that code is so first let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=281s"},{"start_seconds":292,"text":"uh talk a bit on the background why we have ref funds uh in the first place so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=292s"},{"start_seconds":298,"text":"because new is a synchronous environment when you execute a transaction uh that may take multiple blocks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=298s"},{"start_seconds":307,"text":"and by the end of the execution um the unused gas that for example was used for the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=307s"},{"start_seconds":316,"text":"function calls is being converted back to the near tokens and transferred back","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=316s"},{"start_seconds":323,"text":"to the assigner of the transaction so that generated a refund","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=323s"},{"start_seconds":330,"text":"for um for the unused tokens that were not spent on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=330s"},{"start_seconds":336,"text":"transaction um there are a few types of refunds that we have uh first and that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=336s"},{"start_seconds":345,"text":"the very simple one is refund in nearer tokens so imagine you're transferring","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=345s"},{"start_seconds":353,"text":"tokens to the account but that account doesn't exist in this case um V ref fund","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=353s"},{"start_seconds":360,"text":"you the tokens back to the original account not the original back to the predecessor the one that sent the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=360s"},{"start_seconds":369,"text":"assets um that's the transfer refund it also possible for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=369s"},{"start_seconds":376,"text":"the function call so when you make a function call with a deposit and that function call fails uh basically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=376s"},{"start_seconds":384,"text":"panics then the ref receipt considered uh failer and the tokens is refunded to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=384s"},{"start_seconds":393,"text":"the predecessor so we don't touch the this refunds in this particular NP um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=393s"},{"start_seconds":401,"text":"the second type of refunds are for the gas differences either in prices or on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=401s"},{"start_seconds":408,"text":"spent gas so when a refund is when a receipt is sent we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=408s"},{"start_seconds":418,"text":"charge small amount in S gas um and then we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=418s"},{"start_seconds":424,"text":"charge a second time at the execution time so imagine a race it having","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=424s"},{"start_seconds":432,"text":"multiple actions and the first action fails for some reason let's say it's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=432s"},{"start_seconds":440,"text":"function call that fails and there's multiple function calls then unexecuted actions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=440s"},{"start_seconds":450,"text":"effectively have a gas that is not being spent at the execution time so that gas","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=450s"},{"start_seconds":459,"text":"is converted to near at the prepaid gas price and being sent back to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=459s"},{"start_seconds":467,"text":"signer of the transaction the one who prepaid for all the gas of the entire","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=467s"},{"start_seconds":474,"text":"transaction so because the execution is a synchron is the gas price might fluctuate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=474s"},{"start_seconds":483,"text":"between the origination when you issue the transaction and the moment when it's executed","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=483s"},{"start_seconds":492,"text":"so in order to account for this historically we had","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=492s"},{"start_seconds":500,"text":"um what we called pessimistic gas pricing it basically infl","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=500s"},{"start_seconds":507,"text":"inflated your uh gas PR price by the difference by how much it basically can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=507s"},{"start_seconds":515,"text":"increase per block and it was like slightly higher so instead of 1% per block it was like 3% per","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=515s"},{"start_seconds":522,"text":"block um so every single action like effectively in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=522s"},{"start_seconds":531,"text":"transaction was having a higher gas price then it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=531s"},{"start_seconds":537,"text":"actually would be executed on because of a 3% difference and 1%","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=537s"},{"start_seconds":544,"text":"difference um potential and even a simple","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=544s"},{"start_seconds":551,"text":"transfer would generate a gas refund to the original signer for this difference","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=551s"},{"start_seconds":559,"text":"of 2% in the gas pricing um that was done to fight congestion and make it a bit more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=559s"},{"start_seconds":567,"text":"expensive to spam the network work with this pessimistic gas pricing if you like SP a lot of transaction in a burst uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=567s"},{"start_seconds":577,"text":"all paying the same amount um in reality the current mechanism of gas","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=577s"},{"start_seconds":586,"text":"price increase doesn't really work well if one Shard is congested out of four then the price would not increase now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=586s"},{"start_seconds":594,"text":"with six sharts if two sharts are congested we would still not increase the gas price globally uh so there's no","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=594s"},{"start_seconds":603,"text":"real protection of like this pessimistic gas price increases so at the other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=603s"},{"start_seconds":610,"text":"other time it creates the overhead of accounting for the future receipt when we estimate the parameters of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=610s"},{"start_seconds":618,"text":"network because when you estimate how much actual compute you would spend you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=618s"},{"start_seconds":626,"text":"would have to account for all the receipts that are fly back for a simple transfer so this NP particularly","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=626s"},{"start_seconds":634,"text":"eliminates the pessimistic gas price increase that's the first change we say","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=634s"},{"start_seconds":641,"text":"that the transfer now will be charged at the current gas price without increase so if transfer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=641s"},{"start_seconds":650,"text":"succeeds uh there's no refund generated that would fly back to the um to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=650s"},{"start_seconds":657,"text":"signer and that will eliminate uh kind of refund overhead of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=657s"},{"start_seconds":664,"text":"making a simple transfer it also kind of like for other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=664s"},{"start_seconds":671,"text":"simple actions that do not involve function calls that are precomputed G and succeed they also not going to generate the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=671s"},{"start_seconds":680,"text":"refunds the second change of this snap is um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=680s"},{"start_seconds":687,"text":"previously we will not charging explicitly for the cost of the gas refund SO gas refund is effectively a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=687s"},{"start_seconds":696,"text":"transfers so it has the um original cost and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=696s"},{"start_seconds":706,"text":"the um and uh act creation of action","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=706s"},{"start_seconds":715,"text":"receipt so it was charged when when it was executed but not when it was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=715s"},{"start_seconds":722,"text":"sent so making explicitly charging gas for generating a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=722s"},{"start_seconds":731,"text":"refund will make gas estimation more robust now because it will not be for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=731s"},{"start_seconds":738,"text":"free or it will not be implicitly done so the second change of this snap","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=738s"},{"start_seconds":746,"text":"is we introduce an explicit gas cost of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=746s"},{"start_seconds":754,"text":"refunds but we do not change it for monitor refund so the one that flies","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=754s"},{"start_seconds":761,"text":"to predecessor is still three","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=761s"},{"start_seconds":767,"text":"um and the Third change that we wanted to add to this that created a discussion","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=767s"},{"start_seconds":775,"text":"is whether we want to penalize um function called","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=775s"},{"start_seconds":783,"text":"refunds so imagine you submit a function call uh that attaches maximum amount of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=783s"},{"start_seconds":792,"text":"gas so in this case 300 ter gas to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=792s"},{"start_seconds":800,"text":"receiver and you only spent five of them five Tas so you have 29 5 teras","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=800s"},{"start_seconds":810,"text":"remaining that previously would be sent back to um to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=810s"},{"start_seconds":819,"text":"signer so the discussion was we wanted to penalize this AER with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=819s"},{"start_seconds":827,"text":"fixed cost which is let's say five teras of this will be burnt and that will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=827s"},{"start_seconds":836,"text":"eliminate gas refunds for function calls that spent less like that have less than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=836s"},{"start_seconds":843,"text":"five teras remaining um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=843s"},{"start_seconds":852,"text":"that that number we wanted to increase over time that over like let's say six months or one year the fixed amount goes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=852s"},{"start_seconds":861,"text":"to 300 teras and we completely eliminate the refunds uh but that creates a problem","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=861s"},{"start_seconds":868,"text":"for the Legacy contract that do not um were not conservative on gas or they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=868s"},{"start_seconds":877,"text":"had a fixed cost built into the contracts that is hard to increase or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=877s"},{"start_seconds":885,"text":"like hard to maintain and like contract might be locked so very effectively we'll start burning gas um for the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=885s"},{"start_seconds":893,"text":"action that were previously refundable that will make certain interaction more expensive especially with con Ross contract calls so the second alternative","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=893s"},{"start_seconds":902,"text":"was uh we introduce the cost um of the refund in such a way that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=902s"},{"start_seconds":912,"text":"we penalize at most 5% for example of the remaining gas","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=912s"},{"start_seconds":921,"text":"or some other parameter um so in this case Legacy contract will not be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=921s"},{"start_seconds":930,"text":"affected that much because um the actual refund cost that we would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=930s"},{"start_seconds":940,"text":"charge will be slightly higher than 5% of the remaining GS and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=940s"},{"start_seconds":948,"text":"only the like 300 ter gas and spend gas will be penalized which would force app developers to start thinking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=948s"},{"start_seconds":957,"text":"about um not attaching the maximum amount of gas at the other hand it's not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=957s"},{"start_seconds":964,"text":"really critical to do this because if we account for the gas refund in the actual","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=964s"},{"start_seconds":973,"text":"gas cost then um that amount if will be properly estimated and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=973s"},{"start_seconds":981,"text":"will be just included in the costs so there's no real freezing for this stuff","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=981s"},{"start_seconds":988,"text":"at the same time it doesn't penalize the development and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=988s"},{"start_seconds":995,"text":"Dev so that's the background and like kind of explanation of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=995s"},{"start_seconds":1001,"text":"uh awesome uh thank you so much for your summary and uh you know for submitting the proposal and uh your ongoing work","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1001s"},{"start_seconds":1010,"text":"throughout the process of course um super great to see okay um so yes the community has","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1010s"},{"start_seconds":1019,"text":"reviewed and discussed the SN on GitHub along with the work group members so next I would like to invite Michael one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1019s"},{"start_seconds":1026,"text":"of the reviewers to summarize some of the advantages and concerns that we saw in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1026s"},{"start_seconds":1033,"text":"comments uh yep Michael the floor is all yours all right thank you Victor uh so yep I've as you've get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1033s"},{"start_seconds":1042,"text":"covered um the the the main goal here is to reduce the overhead of having refund","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1042s"},{"start_seconds":1049,"text":"receipts that uh we simply don't need based on the analysis that pessimistic gas pricing isn't really accomplishing what we want anyways um so so that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1049s"},{"start_seconds":1058,"text":"that's a good thing to see and then because it is now incentivizing um users interacting with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1058s"},{"start_seconds":1066,"text":"blockchain whether that's through a frontend developers building those front ends or you know directly through it through a command line um incentivizing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1066s"},{"start_seconds":1074,"text":"them to not attach the maximum gas when they don't need the maximum gas is is nice because it lets us pack the blocks more efficiently the the way that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1074s"},{"start_seconds":1083,"text":"transactions end up in blocks is based on the amount of gas that it could potentially spend and so if you're attaching 300 teras but then only","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1083s"},{"start_seconds":1092,"text":"spending you know five of it or 10 of it we've sort of lost that 15200 teragat worth of um of block","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1092s"},{"start_seconds":1101,"text":"space that uh is sort of being unused um so you know penalizing the overestimation uh will help us be more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1101s"},{"start_seconds":1109,"text":"efficient in that regard um and then you know this is is sort of a step in in the direction of of trying to make the um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1109s"},{"start_seconds":1118,"text":"whole process more efficient by maybe eventually getting rid of gas refunds but as again said that's not necessarily something that will will aim for it's just you know an idea um and then on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1118s"},{"start_seconds":1128,"text":"other side on on the concern side of this um you know I I mentioned in the comments on GitHub that you know sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1128s"},{"start_seconds":1136,"text":"arbitrarily choosing 5% as penalty because it feels big enough but not too big um I don't think is a great way to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1136s"},{"start_seconds":1144,"text":"make decisions you know it would be nice to for it to be somehow data driven where we have some Metric and we we sort of agree that 5% optimizes this in some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1144s"},{"start_seconds":1153,"text":"method or another but um obviously it's it's better to to make a decision that improves the protocol even if it's a suboptimal Improvement it's still an","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1153s"},{"start_seconds":1161,"text":"improvement so we don't need to Bandy around too much with the with the day driven nature of things just as as a side note it' be it'd be nice to see in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1161s"},{"start_seconds":1169,"text":"future um now because we are going to start penalizing um over estimating gas uh the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1169s"},{"start_seconds":1179,"text":"flip side side of that is we need to give developers a reliable way to estimate the gas right if basically the reason today that developers attach 300","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1179s"},{"start_seconds":1187,"text":"teras every time is because well you know that's that's the easiest thing to do um it's not like on other networks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1187s"},{"start_seconds":1196,"text":"where you have sort of an easy RPC call to to get estimate gas for you so you don't have to think about it too much um so it would be nice to see some tooling","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1196s"},{"start_seconds":1203,"text":"built up around this because yes we're happy about not overestimating the gas because of the efficiency but we don't want to hurt the devx experience too","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1203s"},{"start_seconds":1211,"text":"much we don't want people paying for um the overestimating costs unless um you know we can give them the tools that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1211s"},{"start_seconds":1219,"text":"they need to to stop overestimating um and then finally Marcelo did did point out that you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1219s"},{"start_seconds":1226,"text":"pessimistic gas gas pricing did have a role um but as as again mentioned it's it's not necessarily meaning that role","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1226s"},{"start_seconds":1235,"text":"and there are other neps that we're not discussing today but presumably we'll discuss in in the near future that are about congestion and about addressing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1235s"},{"start_seconds":1243,"text":"congestion in a more robust way so having you know a short term where pessimistic gas pricing is is not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1243s"},{"start_seconds":1251,"text":"present uh shouldn't be a a big security issue for for the protocol because again the congestion issue is going to be be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1251s"},{"start_seconds":1258,"text":"addressed separately in in a timely manner excellent uh thank you so much for that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1258s"},{"start_seconds":1267,"text":"Michael um thanks for sharing so now that we've heard about the advantages and the concerns of the snup uh let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1267s"},{"start_seconds":1275,"text":"take a look at each working group member's opinion uh which brings us to the voting stage So based on the neb process we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1275s"},{"start_seconds":1283,"text":"need two3 majority to move forward with this neb uh we've already had each working group member provide their voting indication on the NP itself on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1283s"},{"start_seconds":1291,"text":"GitHub uh but here is the summary so we had all four working group","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1291s"},{"start_seconds":1298,"text":"members leaning towards approval of this NB um before we formalize the decision I'd like to ask if any work group","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1298s"},{"start_seconds":1305,"text":"members have any final comments or concerns uh yes I can see","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1305s"},{"start_seconds":1313,"text":"Maron yes so so while I while I agree that we should go forward with this one thing that I mentioned GitHub is we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1313s"},{"start_seconds":1321,"text":"should make sure that explorers are showing clearly that this is the additional fee that was charged because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1321s"},{"start_seconds":1328,"text":"the dev apps developer included too much gas because if we don't do it people will just see like oh yeah new is simply","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1328s"},{"start_seconds":1335,"text":"more expensive new is more expensive and this is a different Behavior than other chains right so again if you don't do it people will be like okay the new transaction cost $2 now okay I'm going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1335s"},{"start_seconds":1344,"text":"to go somewhere else without understanding that this might be coming from the fact that someone was just attaching too much gas this is not a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1344s"},{"start_seconds":1351,"text":"natural thing in other chains so this would be my only request is that really we invest in Explorer wallet slways of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1351s"},{"start_seconds":1360,"text":"showing users so they can also exert some pressure on the DB DB","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1360s"},{"start_seconds":1367,"text":"developers um comment on this um during the implementation of this I was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1367s"},{"start_seconds":1373,"text":"thinking where to include this penalty so if we collude this into the burnt","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1373s"},{"start_seconds":1382,"text":"gas um then it will make estimators incorrectly estimate certain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1382s"},{"start_seconds":1389,"text":"metrics so instead we can include this into the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1389s"},{"start_seconds":1396,"text":"token burnt instead of the gas burnt so the gas burnt will only be included","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1396s"},{"start_seconds":1404,"text":"for um for the actual cost of the r fund but the penalty can be included","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1404s"},{"start_seconds":1413,"text":"into the tokens burn but not in the gas burn and that will indicate that the tokens were","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1413s"},{"start_seconds":1422,"text":"burnt um but the gas uh charge was less sure but we have to show it and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1422s"},{"start_seconds":1431,"text":"explore very very clearly because the fact that you know this it appears from this field and not from this field like doesn't tell you much like a clear","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1431s"},{"start_seconds":1439,"text":"indication of like hey you're probably including too much gas Etc so said there is some work required on the Explorer side","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1439s"},{"start_seconds":1455,"text":"here okay uh thanks Marson and Yi for your input and um yeah thank you so much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1455s"},{"start_seconds":1465,"text":"for sharing uh awesome so with that being said I would like to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1465s"},{"start_seconds":1471,"text":"invite you Genny again to talk about um the next phase of implementation uh if Genny the floor is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1471s"},{"start_seconds":1479,"text":"all yours right um so yeah the I might some progress on this uh but it was taking a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1479s"},{"start_seconds":1488,"text":"bit too long so um some most of the implementation is done I was was working","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1488s"},{"start_seconds":1497,"text":"on the tests uh in with the recent change uh that introduced kind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1497s"},{"start_seconds":1504,"text":"of a variable number of receipts in in standard runtime tests based on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1504s"},{"start_seconds":1512,"text":"environment so and that's just extra changes that I need to complete so um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1512s"},{"start_seconds":1519,"text":"it's in progress but mostly done awesome um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1519s"},{"start_seconds":1530,"text":"great okay thank you so much for that and so now that we're done with NEP 536 uh we can move on to the conversation of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1530s"},{"start_seconds":1539,"text":"NEP 540 and yes uh once again I'd like to call upon Michael to share some of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1539s"},{"start_seconds":1546,"text":"benefits and concerns of this neb uh Michael do you want to go ahead thanks Victor yeah so I guess I'll","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1546s"},{"start_seconds":1556,"text":"I'll start with a quick summary of this one um so the I mean it's in the title but the the idea was near has this storage","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1556s"},{"start_seconds":1565,"text":"staking which is part of the protocol um and this is basically how you're allowed to store data on chain whether that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1565s"},{"start_seconds":1573,"text":"data for a smart contract or access keys for an account or or whatever just anytime you're storing something on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1573s"},{"start_seconds":1580,"text":"Shain the there's a minimum amount of near that this account must hold to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1580s"},{"start_seconds":1586,"text":"able to have those byes reserved uh so we call the storage staking because you can uh delete that data and then your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1586s"},{"start_seconds":1594,"text":"minimum balance is reduced correspondingly and so you can sort of free up those uh near if you wish um so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1594s"},{"start_seconds":1602,"text":"the the idea behind this was you know it provides a persistent cost to storing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1602s"},{"start_seconds":1609,"text":"things on chain because that near is is locked you can't do anything with it um but it also is recoverable in the sense","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1609s"},{"start_seconds":1617,"text":"that if you delete the data you you get that in your back and you can you can do other things with it so so so that was the idea um stor taking there's been a a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1617s"},{"start_seconds":1625,"text":"lot of discussion about and you know there's basically we all agree it's not working as intended but we don't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1625s"},{"start_seconds":1633,"text":"necessarily agree in what mechanism should replace it so there's still a lot of discussion about that uh this proposal specifically was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1633s"},{"start_seconds":1642,"text":"about can we as a stop Gap measure reduce that minimum amount of near that's required on accounts on a per","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1642s"},{"start_seconds":1650,"text":"bite basis just to unblock development uh Bowen points out in the description","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1650s"},{"start_seconds":1657,"text":"of that NEP that the the cost to deploy basic contracts like a multisig contract has gotten kind of prohibitively","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1657s"},{"start_seconds":1666,"text":"expensive for for average users um just based on the the Fiat price of of near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1666s"},{"start_seconds":1673,"text":"these days so you know first bullet point here reducing the the cost immediately give some relief to that it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1673s"},{"start_seconds":1680,"text":"is it is going to immediately alleviate the impact of of near having a higher price on being able to deploy contracts to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1680s"},{"start_seconds":1688,"text":"chain um and then yeah as I said there was quite a lot of discussion on this NEP about about alternative Solutions though we haven't really come to any","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1688s"},{"start_seconds":1696,"text":"conclusion quite yet on them um so yeah let's let's go on to concerns","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1696s"},{"start_seconds":1703,"text":"um you know I I don't think that this this is a good idea because it's it creates a certain amount of risk right the the token price you know this is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1703s"},{"start_seconds":1712,"text":"crypto right it's it's it's volatile it could be be up today down tomorrow who who knows right like I don't and and unfortunately the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1712s"},{"start_seconds":1722,"text":"the fortunately and unfortunately the the process we have to to update these things is is a little bit slow right so there there's no way that unless there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1722s"},{"start_seconds":1730,"text":"was a proposal specifically for making it Dynamic um there's no way that we can respond all the time you know so we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1730s"},{"start_seconds":1738,"text":"decide to reduce it by 10x today and then the price drops back down and so okay well now let's have an NP to bring it back up like just I don't think it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1738s"},{"start_seconds":1745,"text":"makes sense to to put that work on ourselves um so reducing it down I think creates the risk that um we will be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1745s"},{"start_seconds":1752,"text":"undercharging for storage when uh the price changes in the future um and then yeah just this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1752s"},{"start_seconds":1761,"text":"doesn't actually address any of the underlying problems with storage staking itself it is just sort of like a Band-Aid fix on top of storage Stak","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1761s"},{"start_seconds":1769,"text":"um and and again I just don't think the the risks introduced um make up for for the the benefits um there there's also a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1769s"},{"start_seconds":1776,"text":"bullet point here about sort of potentially complicated things we could do in other um storage cost Solutions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1776s"},{"start_seconds":1784,"text":"but um again we haven't really agreed on on on any of those things so I don't think it's necessarily concerned with this NEP specifically it's just a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1784s"},{"start_seconds":1791,"text":"concerned with storage in general awesome uh thank you so much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1791s"},{"start_seconds":1798,"text":"Michael for sharing and uh yeah so with that being said uh let's take a look at","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1798s"},{"start_seconds":1804,"text":"each working group memb opinion and yeah let's get to the voting stage so like I mentioned earlier the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1804s"},{"start_seconds":1812,"text":"net process is based on a two-thirds majority to move forward to move forward with the snip and we've already had each working group member provide their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1812s"},{"start_seconds":1821,"text":"voting indication and so yes we had all four working group members leaning towards rejecting the SNB","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1821s"},{"start_seconds":1828,"text":"um before we formalize the decision once again I'd like to ask does anyone have any final comments or concerns they'd like to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1828s"},{"start_seconds":1838,"text":"raise yes Marson so yeah so while this is painful especially for some of developers or not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1838s"},{"start_seconds":1845,"text":"necessarily developers because if de developers keep you know experimenting with their contract they don't really pay that much because as Michael said","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1845s"},{"start_seconds":1853,"text":"these these storage comes back Etc it's especially frustrating for more sophisticated users that want to deploy contract that already exists here","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1853s"},{"start_seconds":1862,"text":"the multisig was one example but there are a couple others so one thing that I hope that you know while this NEP failed","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1862s"},{"start_seconds":1869,"text":"one thing I hope we'll be able to deliver soon is this uh how is called like global global account Global uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1869s"},{"start_seconds":1877,"text":"code storage so that if if a given code already exists in a given Shard then users trying to deploy it should not pay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1877s"},{"start_seconds":1884,"text":"twice kind of for the same storage right so so in theory having having something like that having an app like that would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1884s"},{"start_seconds":1892,"text":"be a proper solution for this painful thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1892s"},{"start_seconds":1899,"text":"awesome thanks for that suggestion Marson and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1899s"},{"start_seconds":1906,"text":"um yes okay great um so moving on to q&as does anyone have any additional questions they'd like to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1906s"},{"start_seconds":1914,"text":"ask well maybe let's since we have people here maybe let's discuss what what is a proper","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1914s"},{"start_seconds":1921,"text":"solution since this is not a proper solution I mean I I I think what what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1921s"},{"start_seconds":1930,"text":"Marson said about uh like Global code storage yeah I mean I think that makes sense and it might actually become","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1930s"},{"start_seconds":1939,"text":"easier with st validation since we do actually need to U propagate the contract anyways uh or at least in the current implementation","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1939s"},{"start_seconds":1948,"text":"um but but I mean I think I think I think that definitely addresses maybe a big chunk of the problem but still I think even uh just for like contract","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1948s"},{"start_seconds":1957,"text":"storage that's not related to contract code but there's still uh this concern that uh I think was brought up by","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1957s"},{"start_seconds":1965,"text":"actually by devop because devop has this uh in their contract they actually store this components right the component code and and so on so that actually is also","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1965s"},{"start_seconds":1974,"text":"getting expensive uh when someone needs to deoy new widgets and and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1974s"},{"start_seconds":1980,"text":"um yeah yes uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1980s"},{"start_seconds":1989,"text":"Maron yeah but actually for for the storage in contracts I actually like the fact that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1989s"},{"start_seconds":1996,"text":"this is expensive as you know very well this is the biggest challenge of blockchains growing is like the State Management becomes the biggest pain and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=1996s"},{"start_seconds":2004,"text":"has to synchronize whatnot right and some like as you said devhub storing the code this will be like Devil's Advocate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2004s"},{"start_seconds":2012,"text":"play but like hey this is a good motivation for them to do things like compressing it or maybe just storing a hash and storing the code somewhere else and then people provide the code","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2012s"},{"start_seconds":2021,"text":"together with the hash when they want to modify it like there are a bunch of like solutions that will only show up if this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2021s"},{"start_seconds":2028,"text":"is like expensive enough of course while not going crazy right because we still don't want to like limit the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2028s"},{"start_seconds":2035,"text":"usability of the chain yeah I I mean I think I agree with the the general sentiment that it should not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2035s"},{"start_seconds":2042,"text":"be too cheap otherwise we see problem we already see problems on like base and a few other rollups where like it's like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2042s"},{"start_seconds":2049,"text":"you spend like the storage uh it is polygon to certain extend as well but but I think you know the I mean I I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2049s"},{"start_seconds":2058,"text":"suppose partially the problem is that the price is denominating near and this can actually just become quite expensive","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2058s"},{"start_seconds":2066,"text":"at some point in the future uh you to like how Market Works","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2066s"},{"start_seconds":2072,"text":"um and ideally would you know we we want to have um a uh better mechanism somehow","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2072s"},{"start_seconds":2082,"text":"um to deal with and and it's actually not as easy so I mean at least I don't see easy solution where you can pack the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2082s"},{"start_seconds":2090,"text":"uh price to USD because if if you if you do it naively then then like what what actually happens when the um price just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2090s"},{"start_seconds":2097,"text":"like uh goes up Suddenly like your storage become invalid not not invalid like you cannot actually access your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2097s"},{"start_seconds":2104,"text":"account unless you you just like uh deposit more so then that that becomes um oh sorry price goes down I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2104s"},{"start_seconds":2112,"text":"anyways like it can create a situation where like your your account are kind of yeah not useable anymore I mean in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2112s"},{"start_seconds":2120,"text":"theory if you have donative usdc and you enshrine it actually into the protocol which is like a huge separate like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2120s"},{"start_seconds":2127,"text":"discussion and and use that for for storage staking that solves this part but yes there are a lot of consequence","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2127s"},{"start_seconds":2134,"text":"of doing yes it is very heavy lifting you're like okay let's first build this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2134s"},{"start_seconds":2141,"text":"huge hammer and like we can and then we perfectly get the nail like yes another thing that was brought up as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2141s"},{"start_seconds":2150,"text":"a conversation on on the N was um I think Ilia originally proposed it this idea of um sort of dehydrating and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2150s"},{"start_seconds":2159,"text":"rehydrating storage where you don't demand that the validators actually store everything at all times they they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2159s"},{"start_seconds":2166,"text":"are allowed to delete State and only keep the the hash of the of the leaf in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2166s"},{"start_seconds":2172,"text":"the in the try um and then you know if uh if someone needs that storage in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2172s"},{"start_seconds":2179,"text":"future they would have to pay some something to basically make some validator U make it available again um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2179s"},{"start_seconds":2188,"text":"and I think that's a reasonable idea to to try to find a middle ground where you're you know not putting too much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2188s"},{"start_seconds":2196,"text":"burden on validators but also if if stuff needs to be stored long term and is and is useful then um you know the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2196s"},{"start_seconds":2202,"text":"natural economic activity enables it but um my main concern with that is like what the actual devx ends up looking like and how complicated it is which I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2202s"},{"start_seconds":2210,"text":"assume the geni wants to talk about as well right now yeah that's a interesting proposal but like in the original","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2210s"},{"start_seconds":2218,"text":"protocol development it always came towards like can that be implemented on a contract level so we don't have to put","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2218s"},{"start_seconds":2225,"text":"it on a protocol level uh and that seems like regeration and like can actually be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2225s"},{"start_seconds":2232,"text":"done on a contract level like you just store a cash and you delete it when you don't need it it's just not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2232s"},{"start_seconds":2239,"text":"automatic um so maybe if we provide exposure","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2239s"},{"start_seconds":2248,"text":"towards some kind of like merization towards the contract then that's actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2248s"},{"start_seconds":2255,"text":"possible um but I don't think it's really necessary uh we should uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2255s"},{"start_seconds":2262,"text":"just instead yeah yeah majority of use cases actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2262s"},{"start_seconds":2269,"text":"the storage on a contract is not really need to be this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2269s"},{"start_seconds":2276,"text":"large and like it mostly was designed to fight spam on tokens but then it created","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2276s"},{"start_seconds":2284,"text":"a pain for the tokens um but interior user should cover this and it's a onetime fee for the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2284s"},{"start_seconds":2295,"text":"user and then it's became somewhat cheaper to transact multiple","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2295s"},{"start_seconds":2304,"text":"times instead of like having to deal like having to pay for the storage on every single","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2304s"},{"start_seconds":2311,"text":"call so I yeah yeah I agree on like that we should not drop it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2311s"},{"start_seconds":2319,"text":"further otherwise we'll introduce the extra complexity on validators","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2319s"},{"start_seconds":2326,"text":"network yeah I mean I I I I think um with st viation and and charting we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2326s"},{"start_seconds":2334,"text":"should not get into a situation where we still need this uh uh kind of State uh expiry um because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2334s"},{"start_seconds":2343,"text":"like well first of all it's only replicated now on on you know chunk producers not on every validator most of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2343s"},{"start_seconds":2350,"text":"them don't actually store the state and so you can say that the cost of replication is not lower um and also we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2350s"},{"start_seconds":2357,"text":"can we will limit the size of each shart to to some reasonable number um so that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2357s"},{"start_seconds":2365,"text":"yeah if there's need to have more shards and yeah there'll be like more valid just and then more shards and and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2365s"},{"start_seconds":2373,"text":"you kind of scale in that way uh rather than having to uh forget the state and then uh someone insert them back later","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2373s"},{"start_seconds":2383,"text":"which is like I mean it it gets complex for U for the end users right it's kind of annoying to deal with and and and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2383s"},{"start_seconds":2391,"text":"also like this whoever stores the state it's not clear what incent they actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2391s"},{"start_seconds":2398,"text":"have and you actually can lead to end up in a situation where some state is just forever lost that which is definitely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2398s"},{"start_seconds":2405,"text":"not optimal especially if that is like related to token balance or something","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2405s"},{"start_seconds":2412,"text":"like this and like people are screwed I mean it depends right in theory if you have archival notes that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2412s"},{"start_seconds":2419,"text":"really kept the whole history then the state is there right if they kept read the whole history of transactions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2419s"},{"start_seconds":2428,"text":"yeah but like Arch node is not you can say it's not part of the protocol right like like today the protocol like for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2428s"},{"start_seconds":2437,"text":"the network to keep running forward it doesn't need an archive note","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2437s"},{"start_seconds":2446,"text":"sure there was also like to to address that there was also this idea of combining this with a rent model or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2446s"},{"start_seconds":2453,"text":"basically you can choose between expiration or paying like renting the storage like continuously renting the storage so you know it won't expire but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2453s"},{"start_seconds":2462,"text":"you need to pay for that and U yeah that was an alternative to have good deex and at the same","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2462s"},{"start_seconds":2470,"text":"time not let the state blo so basically only contracts that will be used will will expire and very likely they will","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2470s"},{"start_seconds":2480,"text":"like most of them won't come back okay okay uh yes thank you all uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2480s"},{"start_seconds":2491,"text":"really looking forward to developments on these suggestions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2491s"},{"start_seconds":2508,"text":"um I think you get muted oh my apologies","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2508s"},{"start_seconds":2518,"text":"uh yeah uh as I was saying uh thank you to everyone involved and present on the call uh we're really excited to work together and decentralize the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2518s"},{"start_seconds":2526,"text":"development of near um congratulations to the authors of neb 536 as well and so uh just before we close of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2526s"},{"start_seconds":2535,"text":"the meeting I want to quickly highlight the ways you can get involved in the near developer ecosystem uh if you have a specific idea","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2535s"},{"start_seconds":2544,"text":"in mind feel free to submit it using Devo or any other existing communities to collaborate with you can also submit your own","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2544s"},{"start_seconds":2553,"text":"NEP and you can view all the nips and check out their updates on GitHub and the discussions you're also welcome to join","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2553s"},{"start_seconds":2562,"text":"our telegram group uh if you're watching this uh it's a great way to it's a it's a great way to connect with others and see announcements for meetings like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2562s"},{"start_seconds":2571,"text":"this and you can learn about devhub on our website and stay up to date on our social channels um be posting the recording for this meeting and upcoming","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2571s"},{"start_seconds":2579,"text":"calls on all other social channels as well so yes uh once again thank you to everyone congratulations uh to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2579s"},{"start_seconds":2587,"text":"authors and have a great weekend","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA&t=2587s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=FPGNFDQ6rRA","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/FPGNFDQ6rRA"}