{"id":"BwWiao9k80o","title":"Where Are the Users?","description":"Speakers:\nKendall Cole, Proximity; \nAustin Adams, Uniswap Labs; \nAhmed Al-Balaghi, Biconomy; \nMax Resnick, SMG; \nRob Sarrow, Volt Capital (moderator)\n\nWe Came, We Saw, We Abstracted!\n\nNEAR, in partnership with Frontier Research and Agoric, hosted Chain Abstraction Day, a massive event that attracted over 1,200 attendees. \n\nThis gathering brought together the brightest minds in blockchain, including industry leaders like Sreeram Kannan from EigenLayer and Adrian Brink from Anoma. \n\nA cornerstone of the event was unveiling the CAKE framework (Chain Abstraction Key Elements). This framework provides a foundational understanding of chain abstraction and paves the way for further exploration. Discussions dived into cutting-edge topics like threshold signatures, multi-chain settlements, and abstracted security. \n\nRecap of NEAR at Eth Denver: https://bit.ly/NEARatEthDenver\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nReddit:   / nearprotocol  \nDiscord: https://near.chat/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near  https://github.com/nearprotocol\nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\n#Blockchain #NEAR #nearprotocol","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-04-11T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/BwWiao9k80o/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"four fantastic panelists um quick introduction for myself Rob S and investor full Capital um but I'd really like to kick off by everyone introducing themselves and really uh understand what they're working on in the permission L right now we'll start with Kendall so I just spoke so probably heard Myro but I'm Kendall co-founder of proximity and we are working with a lot of in your teams on some chain of traction products hey everyone my name is Ahmed I'm one of the co-founders at B economy and by economy we provide a full stack C exraction solution for developers we're currently the biggest um infrastructure provider for cration right now inew hi I'm Max resic uh I'm the head of research at special mechanisms Group which is a division with consensus that works on me research and special projects uh as far as permission ler goes I work somewhat with Linea and with pamas uh I'm Austin Adams I'm a researcher unit swap Labs I work on like protocol design on like Unis swap B4 and a lot of our other products uh that's like the app player we do all right um so yeah to really kick it off I think blockchains present significant barriers to entry notably the ne for wallet fees Associated uh with each transaction so uh to kind of add a little bit of light from the beginning of the panel I think we should kind of go through spicy's takes I would like to start off first uh when it comes to transaction phase specifically like to start off with Max um yeah I I have a lot of thoughts on this I think um if you follow me on Twitter you know that I'm not a big fan of 1559 um I guess the framing that we should always think about transaction fees in is is it efficient do we have the people who want to get on chain getting on chain the most the people who want to get the most get on chain the most that should be what happens and then the other thing which I think 1559 tried to address is should users have low regret should they be overpaying or underpaying um how do we try to fix that and I think 1559 took a stab at it and I'm not super happy with where we got I think you look at a 1559 price chart and it has enough fluctuation that if you look at a 1 hour 1559 price chart it looks very similar to like a 60 year housing price chart because the parameter of the update rule in 1559 is too fast and so you'll have you know within the span of 10 blocks which is like 2 minutes you'll have prices going from 40 way to 80 way and if you're a user you know facing that that's pretty hard if you're just the average user do I want to use the chain right now do I want to wait 2 minutes and see if the price goes down by half I think we want to have a system where users can just look at the chain and say okay the price is around 40 way right now it's probably going to be around 40 way for the next hour because demand is pretty steady and that makes the user experience and the user choice I want to do a lot easier I think it's like a follow up on that it's also really hard to do gas estimat we do like a lot of gas estimates for our users it's extremely hard uh weally just have to like put it at Max and then it causes issues like g a lot it's 10x Auto a it's 10x Auto with contraction and all of that 43 of7 is bad you know can you explain on that why it's on the ASI so essentially um well all of 43 Z transactions are happening on l2s at the moment and so you essentially need to um calculate the L2 gas fee the cool date on one as well and every L2 has just different ways of um doing gas right and so when you're supporting these new chains and these applications um what essentially happens is you know you'd have to really just integrate um there's no sort of common way of integrating every you have to so that's one aspect and the other aspect is the entry point so the entry point um kind of leaves a buffer when it comes to gas and so it just becomes a bit harder to uh to estimate so we we are actually coming out with um huge improved gas estimations from our side we're actually going to put out an SDK that's going to be fully open source any team could use use it that will hopefully kind of say okay this is probably how gas estimation should look like so yeah so we'll probably come on that next week that's awesome to hear now when it comes to I guess to Circle back a little bit more on the here side it takes I'd like to hear something um from Kendall cuz I know you kind of went through the obstruction side of yeah I mean specifically on the Fe model I think my speciic take is that uh well I think it's actually more at the CH level I think that the uh economics of most chains are kind of broken uh especially with you know saying this SP here but like even the fast chains I think it's it's unclear especially with the security I think the the cost of securing a chain is going to continue to Trend towards zero uh you especially as we were able to like get more efficient with CK proofs and prove every single state transition and I think that's actually going to have like a pretty important Reckoning for most chains in space so less about specifically uh transaction fees but Ely that's how many chains are kind of securing themselves and think that's going to cause some issues in the future and then Austin from the application side of things what are the things that you're thinking through and does that result in anything spicing yeah so uh like I think last week we had to do a ton of work because our uh arbitrum fee calculations were really off and it's like not trivial at all to integrate these new chains so like users always or chains always come to us they like we want to be on the unici interface uh can you just integrate us it's really easy and I'm like it is not easy it is like the hardest thing to do uh and one of the reasons is because like transaction fees or like you know gas fees is really hard and also like there's enough difference between chains that it makes it very hard to integrate especially like on the level of like flow that comes through the interface do you think this becomes more like a user education problem or like developer education problem I I don't think a user should be expected to like calculate their gas I think it's like fundamentally impossible for them to know um I think like like one of the good parts I guess about 1559 if there are good parts about it is that like 95% of our users land on chain within one block uh because they're willing to pay for the gas uh could they have paid less and got the same opportunity probably um but that's what they're indicating is they want to be Unchained as fast as possible so that's again good but um yeah I think like maybe a tiny cool thing I think it's also just like the multi-chain world is very new um so like we integrated on WE integrated Unis swap V2 on all l2s recently I actually did all the deployments for it and it was really hard and it's just like I had to get an ether scan code I had to get gas on every chain I had to check all the addresses on every chain I had to you know go look at their you know scanner it's just like it is not easy to be a CH developer either I just think we're not there yet and I think it's you know obviously we shouldn't expect users to try to estimate their own fees but I think one of the things to recogniz is even for people who are at the scale of Unis swap or us with metamask with you know hundreds of millions of transactions it's still not trivial to estimate the fees and you know we would appreciate if it was easier so that we could give users a better experience well just one quick take here is um a couple of years ago we actually looked into fixed price transactions in the form of gas and then we s realized this was an entirely new company so so if anyone is building this I'd love to talk to you uh because I think if anyone were to offer sort of fixed price transactions it would be pretty amazing like it would heavily improve the work but it's very very hard to do okay you kind of touch on a point that I wanted to jump to where it comes from like what are the tools that developers need to put them in the best position to assist the abstraction for reasons guess one thing I'll say that is a little bit concerning now is that more transactions are moving to private channels and so there are certain entities within the supply chain that have more information about what the state of unol is and what fees you need to get in uh than others and if you're not like sophisticated and not uh tied into the supply chain you just don't see half the order flow so you don't see half the things that are competing with your users for the spot and block and I think it would be nice if we can figure out a way that uh level the playing field so you do basically have to run a block Builder to have all the information required to estimate transaction fees yeah I think like a lot of the a lot of the nons with like block build or flow comes for our interface that's still like very difficult for us to even know but it will be um and so it just ends up and it it affects users a lot right like they really want to be in the next block because they're trying to buy something and we functionally just have to max out their gas like they just always max out their gas fee and I think that's like it's a reveal of preference that users are willing to pay for that inclusion speed but is it like a really Gro optimal outcome like be sure they can pay more but should that especially when gas fees are so high I guess to go off on the T to to answer your question at least on the 4% side um what we've been seeing is that lots of applications uh want to enable a c attraction which is great I would say uh like people typically ask me like you know who who's your competitor I say it's actually the EA in as just because of the fact that when it comes to AAP you know they want to basically build what the users are essentially where all this tooling currently exist and so um it's it's a really interesting I would say Balancing Act to ensure that devs have enough tooling to ensure that they could attract all the the users that they actually can um you know be if they own v a smart wallet or they actually own P by UA um and so whether it's you know working with embedded wallets making integration super simple or ensuring a new app chain becomes native AA from the K go as well I like you know just a few ways of making sure developers have the right you know things that they need to to to provide the best expace for them yeah I mean I think that is one of the big challenges with uh the kind of contract wallets is that if you're targeting crypto natives they almost certainly have some form of wallets already so I mean if you're branding chain you might have a little bit of an easier time you have a hard enough time getting users anyway so at least you can putp them in a fresh wallet but if you're an L2 or you're building a D EOS system and you do have to fight them when you're shouldn't I don't think there's a really clean way or I don't think the experience tends to be better enough to actually motivate these users to to migrate I I think we're just me depend on the app experience so this is why Some Ds are like yeah we'll just do it we know what ux is um yeah and if you're right in terms of users they they they shouldn't need to know right and so uh it's still yeah it's something where from the D level if it makes sense so what do you think those like essential elements are if you have to distill down the three things for the so just just to clarify like what in terms of like what do they me T for like the user Centric approach like when it comes to designing um for end users for attracting away as much of complexity as possible so one thing is definitely spons transactions 99% of OD transactions right now will gasless transactions um and so so that's definitely one aspect the second aspect I would say um this is emerging and I really hope to see more of it um it's just that still very early it's the concept of paying gas in any token so we just supported a trust wallet with their new account construction what with na to app uh we essentially provide them the ability to pay gas in over 250 tokens across 7 evm chains um and right now given all the transactions that happening like it's very clear what uses are ping pass the first one is uh usdt and the second is that the actual trust W the token because they allow users to pay less gas if you pay trust um so I would say this is like an emerging thing that um like for users if they kind of see that uh value ad then they to do it and then the third is more so this depends on the like the D wanting it for the user um uh like I we can talk about session keys but let's say if it's just for the user themselves um I would say this we still don't have a a world where like if I'm using metamask I you know and this is I think what you guys are doing which is which is great like you know this Consolidated view of I have accounts across um I I have this account and it has EA plus you know these three different chains I know a to this new L2 how can I just back send my 10 EA plus three chains and sending more transaction right to the El and I think you know we still don't have that and um you know it would be really awesome to see that right but that is on Smart c as well not the current i' say those three things for the at least for the US point of view would be does anyone have anything additional to that yeah I really agree with the first two there I think my third might be uh just not making the user do more than one transaction to take an action like I think just approvals when I first got like that really confused me I was like I I signed my approval and it's on chain like why do I not have to swap it my in my wallet so I think we need to get better at one click and kind of bundling all that stuff together so it's seamless and invisible for the user yeah we've sort of uh gotten into like one click swaps in the UN swap wallet uh where we have sort of sort of more control I think one of the things that is really confusing to users is they're like why do I need e at all it's very confusing uh especially when a user gets sent money and they're just like why do I need the second token to do something um and so like not having these native ways of like they don't have to deal with that at all is pretty difficult for them especially like when it's a user's first time on chain and they might not even like know what's happening uh so I think like yeah attracting the away gas is very important and having better ways of doing it yeah I think having to understand that your token might be on might be on like a different L2 or chain or whatever it is that you may know exists is a bit of a complex experience we're probably going to see that with a lot of the like you know pay your friends us Toc for dinner or something and pay it to you on like you know a new L2 even like ZK syn or something that we all know pretty well but maybe they've never heard of that or even have heard of an L2 what that is you have to explain to them oh yeah uh that's supported on these exchanges but not on these exchanges just becomes like a frust Austin you mentioned um with the Unis app you're getting to the one with like squats do you believe that the interface is where everything lives and this is where all the like users need to worry about and like it shits kind of the competition to one layer below all the other services to provide for them FL action yeah I think users will naturally go to where it's best for them um I'm sort of a believer that like the user doesn't really care about like one or two bits they just sort of want their thing and they want it now um and they want like good average execution they just want good outcomes they want their things when they want it and we should be competing to give them the best prices best gas best I don't know like experience uh so I think like those things should and have to be abstracted away from the user it's it's quite insane that we're like all right you have to go to your meth to prove or wallet but you can't prove too much and then you got to go set your slowest tolerance and then you got to go do all this stuff it's just like do you really expect like your grandmother to do that and then not lose all their money it's just like not feasible at all and that's like that's not just for like us I think it's just for like every interaction they have on sh yeah I think the user needs to get what they expect to get almost every time and right now they may be getting it 95% of the time if were good and a lot of users like you were saying Austin are they will sign their trans action and they'll just stare at it and wait so you know maybe we could just lower block times then they could be waiting slightly less long but also just a danger that they can get in to the next block if they're the type of person that will just sit there anxiously stare and wait for their you know $10,000 swap or whatever to go through uh would be pretty nice and we can always make sure that they could get it in the next block and they're not censored because the Builder is trying to reate the Bas Fe or something speaking of block Max you tweeted earlier today that the perfect chain does not exist um would love to understand like your think you behind that and have everyone's in to comment that yeah I think you I was being sarcastic that I the the perfect chain doesn't exist right now but we know what it would look like and one of the things there is 200 Mill block times and that just goes back to what I was saying where the user just doesn't want to be sitting there waiting for 12 seconds or 24 seconds a bit of making up with the first block uh that's just an anxious and painful experience for the user so I think 200 millisecond block times would be a great way to do that another thing I put in there with on my wish list for the perfect chain was a multiple proposer architecture where in case one of the proposers doesn't want to include you you'll be included by somebody else that just contributes more to that seamless I did the actions I was supposed to do I expected to get my swap p and you can do okay does anyone else have anything to add to their perfect chain any disagreements no I I I think maybe 200 milliseconds you know maybe get it down lower maybe get it down higher but yeah I think the sort of number doesn't super matter I just think it's like 12 seconds is kind of a lot um I do like a lot of my stuff in the like in the evm ecosystem like on l2s now and it's like kind of nice to be like you refresh you know you do your transaction and you open you know ARB scan or optimism scan it's just done you're like it's done you know I'm happy I don't have to just like wait there and just click it until it you know in indexes or something or it gets M so it's quite nice just like open up armor scan and have it done so I think it's important to learn a lot of times not ra and I think it's not just do I get AIM in the next block it's also when does the probabilistic finality that's enough for the exchange to credit my balance exist and that's one of the like if you ever like move money to coinbase or something like that is really painful just to wait for the whatever whatever has 35 blocks or something that they take lower on base though you know is it lower on base yeah because they have lower block of course well I think also they they control they also control base so they didn't trust that was thing I noticed I moved money to coinbase from Arbitron then it took a lot longer than it did on base uh is that a technical reason I don't know but it is it was much nicer user experience to have it fast any other comments on that or I mean this is just like a personal anecdote um I was in London my wife was in Dubai I had to do a payment you know and uh I was like all right let's just go and Google me share your screen um just go through metam master I need you to swap some things took me 20 took her 20 minutes to to swap one token to usdc and then actually send that and then I said okay this is why you know we exist as a company because you know fundamentally you know why is it taking um you know my wife who doesn't know much about crypto and me just helping along that Journey around 15 20 minutes to do that and so yeah it just I mean just uh just to throw off um you know just to add up to what they saying uh one thing I'll add to the exchange example you guys are giving is that even these really fast she elat your chains they tend to there tends to be like a fixed sort of withdrawal fee of like a Dollar Plus which you know for a lot of people maybe isn't a big deal but for a good segment of the people are trying on board actually can make a pretty big difference if you're trying for like five 10 bucks a dollar is a lot um and I guess what's interesting is like these the gas fees are not necessarily I mean if you're using arbitr something like that maybe but I think we actually really need to get that that's where gas fees actually become like a really big Difference Maker it's like that fee needs to be as close to zero as possible if we want people to use this for a broad amount of like the actual real world P use case that didn't exist outside the West speaking of use cases what are the use cases that people are excited about when it comes to this chain of traction I think it'd be kind of nice to uh have swap St one chain and then have like settlement done on uh main net for example I think like it it would be very nice nice if we get abstract away from users and dabs uh that they're on different chains and then they can sort of just like trade where it's the best prices because we see this in practice like you know arbit has better arbiture liquidity optimism has better optimism liquidity and like users a lot of users actually come to mainten it and they're like why is this optimism liquidity bad like well like that's how it is and uh they don't really like that so it'd be kind of nice if like you could do trades on one chain and then have them set just appear in your wallet without actually having to deal with all the complexities work behind bridging and the cost as well I think I'm most excited about gas sponsorship and paying gas other the tokens actually one of the things we notice in the user flows is that there's quite a few users who will queue up a swap and then we'll go and they will see that they just like don't have enough gas or slly don't have enough gas and then they will cancel their swap um and I think obviously they're queuing up the swap they're probably pretty interested in doing it so removing that friction you can see know that's a very tangible segment of the population that wants to swap and if they can just you know pay their gas Fe with a different to in or have sponsor for them they would be much happier yeah I I think there's so many things to be excisive about and you guys already said quite a few things um one one thing I would say is there was one really cool integration which which we did by mod um using account instruction which enabled um a per aggregator to allow their users to sign a a trade on arbitrum um but the actual trade well sign the transaction arbit but the actual trade is happening on optimism and so this essentially allowing users to do transactions uh on different chains regardless of where they are and I think we're still yet to see like the best sort of UI design for this and it would be really cool to see sort of how this could look like in in the future yeah I'm excited to give developers the opportunity to not necessarily block themselves into a given ecosystem like maybe they can still you know be a part of the ethereum ecosystem and be in an L2 but they don't necessarily have to pick a specific L2 like there's just like we're going to enable ways for them to kind of sit a bit above that uh and I think that that's kind of one of the harrowing choices you have to make as a developer is like which chain or L2 or whatever it is do we focus on and there are some benefits doing that but there are also some serious drawbacks and like that's not necessarily really a core part of what most or at least a lot of these ns are trying to they're trying to build for just end users and then throughout the permission layer like where do you see most different Innovations new use cases like the value actually flow to and can be captured like What entity ends up being um the successful of all is I'll tell you how I hope it isn't which is the valid the proposer who just basically runs a piece of software and for some reason right now it's getting a huge cut of the revenue by running this PBS auction that doesn't really take that much to run I I really hope that we are able to build systems that can keep valid can keep the validator from getting a huge cut of the pie and distribute it to users and to the people who are making these their experience actually good I think Val are important I think they deserve revenue and I think they get revenue from the protocol I don't think they need a huge additional booster revenue from me that comes about due to chain exraction or whatever we we do yeah I think it's also like really really hard today to build systems that don't have uh validators come first uh we think a lot about how to build systems that uh are good for like arm users be swappers be at LPS and it's just extremely hard because this like first look and last look that like validators block Builders have um I think like Hayden posted a tweet recently like $2 billion has been uh given to to E validators from the unisp protocol and like a lot less of that has flown to LP flown to or the pro like the Dow itself I I generally think of course those who own the uses or the front end will ultimately create the most value um and which goes PA and Pa with you know convenance fees are I think going to be um going to be the norm as well for users like you know how we are seeing users not just paying the the s for metam Mass but essentially just wanting to pay higher gas price right to get the executed um so I think if we're able to provide just betterx and people will pay for yeah pretty much Echo all that I think the closer the vi you are the better position you are I think mamas has been a very good example of that well can use obviously but uh I think that is you know it may sound like hey that's not going to users but I think the closer the incentives are to the user the more the user is going to get out of it and the more I mean you're going to see a bunch of places that see there's a lot of value for providing a good experience to the user and then they're going to go for a good user experience and I think that's exactly what we want the further away that experience the further way that value flow is from the user and the less it requires you to provide a good experience the less incentive there is to do it and I also think like if you look at credit card points right um You Look at Chase every year their margin on their credit card rewards program is squeezed even tighter because everybody else realizes hey there's a lot of value from providing a good credit card program that has good features and good rewards and they have to spend more and more to keep that up and I hope for the users that that's what's going to happen in the end here as well yeah it's quite hard to sort of like of like all the transactions like very little that flows to the entities who sort of like build the protocol and things like that and so it's very difficult like we could cut down a part of the Fe going to certain users or certain like subsets of like validators and things like that and then cut down cost from everybody uh by just providing a little bit of that what was going to validat to others um it's very difficult to sort of like the economics of like making money as a protocol or a dow or like a you know entity in the space is very difficult difficult at this moment just because like a lot of the value is weirdly flowing now to wrap it up um one last thing I want to ask is like what would you want to see from a ux perspective change like not in the near term but 5 years out and like how feasible is this prediction here be I just want to know I I I would really like a better way to do like gas estimates on l2s and like I think like Foundry actually just may have to fix this today they just fixed their gas profile there um so I may be wrong right now but it's uh we were doing like a gas buling for L2 contracts it was just like possible to figure out like how much we were actually saving our users because of what the cost of Po and mainten that is not included um but I actually may be wrong now I think maybe not very fix that today addess is always one step ahead no um I guess my biggest request is can we get some shorter block times whether it's on Main net or on the l1s or whatever I just think users need to be more quickly interacting with a chain and have more feedback and I think that will make their experience so much better I I would love to see us using uh well at least myself to be using crypto more by mobile um I'm using it a bit but it's like what maybe 15% of my activity I'd love to see like it being more more than 80 90% And so I don't think we have the apps for that yet nor the relevant tooling so I I love to see us get I would like to be able to go between chains and not acquire the gas tokens so however we can make that happen hey well thank you again everyone and a big thanks to the panelists","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T06:03:23.277Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":8,"text":"four fantastic panelists um quick introduction for myself Rob S and investor full Capital um but I'd really like to kick off by everyone introducing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=8s"},{"start_seconds":17,"text":"themselves and really uh understand what they're working on in the permission L right now we'll start with Kendall so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=17s"},{"start_seconds":24,"text":"just spoke so probably heard Myro but I'm Kendall co-founder of proximity and we are working with a lot of in your teams on some chain of traction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=24s"},{"start_seconds":33,"text":"products hey everyone my name is Ahmed I'm one of the co-founders at B economy and by economy we provide a full stack C","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=33s"},{"start_seconds":40,"text":"exraction solution for developers we're currently the biggest um infrastructure provider for cration right now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=40s"},{"start_seconds":47,"text":"inew hi I'm Max resic uh I'm the head of research at special mechanisms Group which is a division with consensus that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=47s"},{"start_seconds":54,"text":"works on me research and special projects uh as far as permission ler goes I work somewhat with Linea and with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=54s"},{"start_seconds":64,"text":"pamas uh I'm Austin Adams I'm a researcher unit swap Labs I work on like protocol design on like Unis swap B4 and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=64s"},{"start_seconds":72,"text":"a lot of our other products uh that's like the app player we do all right um so yeah to really kick it off I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=72s"},{"start_seconds":81,"text":"blockchains present significant barriers to entry notably the ne for wallet fees Associated uh with each transaction so uh to kind of add a little bit of light","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=81s"},{"start_seconds":90,"text":"from the beginning of the panel I think we should kind of go through spicy's takes I would like to start off first uh when it comes to transaction phase specifically like to start off with Max","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=90s"},{"start_seconds":99,"text":"um yeah I I have a lot of thoughts on this I think um if you follow me on Twitter you know that I'm not a big fan of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=99s"},{"start_seconds":106,"text":"1559 um I guess the framing that we should always think about transaction fees in is is it efficient do we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=106s"},{"start_seconds":114,"text":"the people who want to get on chain getting on chain the most the people who want to get the most get on chain the most that should be what happens and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=114s"},{"start_seconds":122,"text":"then the other thing which I think 1559 tried to address is should users have low regret should they be overpaying or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=122s"},{"start_seconds":131,"text":"underpaying um how do we try to fix that and I think 1559 took a stab at it and I'm not super happy with where we got I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=131s"},{"start_seconds":140,"text":"think you look at a 1559 price chart and it has enough fluctuation that if you look at a 1 hour 1559 price chart it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=140s"},{"start_seconds":148,"text":"looks very similar to like a 60 year housing price chart because the parameter of the update rule in 1559 is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=148s"},{"start_seconds":155,"text":"too fast and so you'll have you know within the span of 10 blocks which is like 2 minutes you'll have prices going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=155s"},{"start_seconds":163,"text":"from 40 way to 80 way and if you're a user you know facing that that's pretty hard if you're just the average user do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=163s"},{"start_seconds":171,"text":"I want to use the chain right now do I want to wait 2 minutes and see if the price goes down by half I think we want to have a system where users can just look at the chain and say okay the price","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=171s"},{"start_seconds":180,"text":"is around 40 way right now it's probably going to be around 40 way for the next hour because demand is pretty steady and that makes the user experience and the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=180s"},{"start_seconds":188,"text":"user choice I want to do a lot easier I think it's like a follow up on that it's also really hard to do gas estimat we do like a lot of gas","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=188s"},{"start_seconds":197,"text":"estimates for our users it's extremely hard uh weally just have to like put it at Max and then it causes issues like g","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=197s"},{"start_seconds":205,"text":"a lot it's 10x Auto a it's 10x Auto with contraction and all of that 43 of7 is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=205s"},{"start_seconds":214,"text":"bad you know can you explain on that why it's on the ASI so essentially um well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=214s"},{"start_seconds":221,"text":"all of 43 Z transactions are happening on l2s at the moment and so you essentially need to um calculate the L2","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=221s"},{"start_seconds":230,"text":"gas fee the cool date on one as well and every L2 has just different ways of um doing gas right and so when you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=230s"},{"start_seconds":237,"text":"supporting these new chains and these applications um what essentially happens is you know you'd have to really just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=237s"},{"start_seconds":245,"text":"integrate um there's no sort of common way of integrating every you have to so that's one aspect and the other aspect is the entry point so the entry point um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=245s"},{"start_seconds":254,"text":"kind of leaves a buffer when it comes to gas and so it just becomes a bit harder to uh to estimate so we we are actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=254s"},{"start_seconds":261,"text":"coming out with um huge improved gas estimations from our side we're actually going to put out an SDK that's going to be fully open source any team could use","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=261s"},{"start_seconds":269,"text":"use it that will hopefully kind of say okay this is probably how gas estimation should look like so yeah so we'll","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=269s"},{"start_seconds":276,"text":"probably come on that next week that's awesome to hear now when it comes to I guess to Circle back a little bit more on the here side it takes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=276s"},{"start_seconds":285,"text":"I'd like to hear something um from Kendall cuz I know you kind of went through the obstruction side of yeah I mean specifically on the Fe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=285s"},{"start_seconds":293,"text":"model I think my speciic take is that uh well I think it's actually more at the CH level I think that the uh economics","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=293s"},{"start_seconds":301,"text":"of most chains are kind of broken uh especially with you know saying this SP here but like even the fast chains I think it's it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=301s"},{"start_seconds":308,"text":"unclear especially with the security I think the the cost of securing a chain is going to continue to Trend towards zero uh you especially as we were able","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=308s"},{"start_seconds":317,"text":"to like get more efficient with CK proofs and prove every single state transition and I think that's actually going to have like a pretty important","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=317s"},{"start_seconds":324,"text":"Reckoning for most chains in space so less about specifically uh transaction fees but Ely that's how many chains are kind of securing themselves and think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=324s"},{"start_seconds":332,"text":"that's going to cause some issues in the future and then Austin from the application side of things what are the things that you're thinking through and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=332s"},{"start_seconds":340,"text":"does that result in anything spicing yeah so uh like I think last week we had to do a ton of work because our uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=340s"},{"start_seconds":348,"text":"arbitrum fee calculations were really off and it's like not trivial at all to integrate these new chains so like users","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=348s"},{"start_seconds":356,"text":"always or chains always come to us they like we want to be on the unici interface uh can you just integrate us it's really easy and I'm like it is not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=356s"},{"start_seconds":364,"text":"easy it is like the hardest thing to do uh and one of the reasons is because like transaction fees or like you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=364s"},{"start_seconds":371,"text":"gas fees is really hard and also like there's enough difference between chains that it makes it very hard to integrate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=371s"},{"start_seconds":379,"text":"especially like on the level of like flow that comes through the interface do you think this becomes more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=379s"},{"start_seconds":386,"text":"like a user education problem or like developer education problem I I don't think a user should be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=386s"},{"start_seconds":393,"text":"expected to like calculate their gas I think it's like fundamentally impossible for them to know um I think like like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=393s"},{"start_seconds":401,"text":"one of the good parts I guess about 1559 if there are good parts about it is that like 95% of our users land on chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=401s"},{"start_seconds":408,"text":"within one block uh because they're willing to pay for the gas uh could they have paid less and got the same opportunity probably um but that's what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=408s"},{"start_seconds":416,"text":"they're indicating is they want to be Unchained as fast as possible so that's again good but um yeah I think like maybe a tiny cool thing I think it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=416s"},{"start_seconds":424,"text":"also just like the multi-chain world is very new um so like we integrated on WE integrated Unis swap V2 on all l2s","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=424s"},{"start_seconds":432,"text":"recently I actually did all the deployments for it and it was really hard and it's just like I had to get an ether scan code I had to get gas on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=432s"},{"start_seconds":440,"text":"every chain I had to check all the addresses on every chain I had to you know go look at their you know scanner","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=440s"},{"start_seconds":447,"text":"it's just like it is not easy to be a CH developer either I just think we're not there yet and I think it's you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=447s"},{"start_seconds":454,"text":"obviously we shouldn't expect users to try to estimate their own fees but I think one of the things to recogniz is even for people who are at the scale of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=454s"},{"start_seconds":463,"text":"Unis swap or us with metamask with you know hundreds of millions of transactions it's still not trivial to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=463s"},{"start_seconds":470,"text":"estimate the fees and you know we would appreciate if it was easier so that we could give users a better experience","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=470s"},{"start_seconds":478,"text":"well just one quick take here is um a couple of years ago we actually looked into fixed price transactions in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=478s"},{"start_seconds":485,"text":"form of gas and then we s realized this was an entirely new company so so if anyone is building this I'd love to talk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=485s"},{"start_seconds":493,"text":"to you uh because I think if anyone were to offer sort of fixed price transactions it would be pretty amazing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=493s"},{"start_seconds":500,"text":"like it would heavily improve the work but it's very very hard to do okay you kind of touch on a point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=500s"},{"start_seconds":508,"text":"that I wanted to jump to where it comes from like what are the tools that developers need to put them in the best","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=508s"},{"start_seconds":515,"text":"position to assist the abstraction for reasons guess one thing I'll say that is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=515s"},{"start_seconds":525,"text":"a little bit concerning now is that more transactions are moving to private channels and so there are certain entities within the supply chain that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=525s"},{"start_seconds":533,"text":"have more information about what the state of unol is and what fees you need to get in uh than others and if you're not like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=533s"},{"start_seconds":542,"text":"sophisticated and not uh tied into the supply chain you just don't see half the order flow so you don't see half the things that are competing with your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=542s"},{"start_seconds":550,"text":"users for the spot and block and I think it would be nice if we can figure out a way that uh level the playing field so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=550s"},{"start_seconds":559,"text":"you do basically have to run a block Builder to have all the information required to estimate transaction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=559s"},{"start_seconds":566,"text":"fees yeah I think like a lot of the a lot of the nons with like block build or flow comes for our interface that's still like very difficult for us to even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=566s"},{"start_seconds":575,"text":"know but it will be um and so it just ends up and it it affects users a lot right like they really want to be in the next block because they're trying to buy","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=575s"},{"start_seconds":584,"text":"something and we functionally just have to max out their gas like they just always max out their gas fee and I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=584s"},{"start_seconds":591,"text":"that's like it's a reveal of preference that users are willing to pay for that inclusion speed but is it like a really Gro optimal outcome like be sure they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=591s"},{"start_seconds":600,"text":"can pay more but should that especially when gas fees are so high I guess to go off on the T to to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=600s"},{"start_seconds":607,"text":"answer your question at least on the 4% side um what we've been seeing is that lots of applications uh want to enable a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=607s"},{"start_seconds":614,"text":"c attraction which is great I would say uh like people typically ask me like you know who who's your competitor I say","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=614s"},{"start_seconds":622,"text":"it's actually the EA in as just because of the fact that when it comes to AAP you know they want to basically build what the users are essentially where all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=622s"},{"start_seconds":630,"text":"this tooling currently exist and so um it's it's a really interesting I would say Balancing Act to ensure that devs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=630s"},{"start_seconds":638,"text":"have enough tooling to ensure that they could attract all the the users that they actually can um you know be if they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=638s"},{"start_seconds":645,"text":"own v a smart wallet or they actually own P by UA um and so whether it's you know working with embedded wallets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=645s"},{"start_seconds":652,"text":"making integration super simple or ensuring a new app chain becomes native AA from the K go as well I like you know just a few ways of making sure","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=652s"},{"start_seconds":661,"text":"developers have the right you know things that they need to to to provide the best expace for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=661s"},{"start_seconds":668,"text":"them yeah I mean I think that is one of the big challenges with uh the kind of contract wallets is that if you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=668s"},{"start_seconds":676,"text":"targeting crypto natives they almost certainly have some form of wallets already so I mean if you're branding chain you might have a little bit of an easier time you have a hard enough time","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=676s"},{"start_seconds":684,"text":"getting users anyway so at least you can putp them in a fresh wallet but if you're an L2 or you're building a D EOS system and you do have to fight them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=684s"},{"start_seconds":691,"text":"when you're shouldn't I don't think there's a really clean way or I don't think the experience tends to be better enough to actually motivate these users","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=691s"},{"start_seconds":699,"text":"to to migrate I I think we're just me depend on the app experience so this is why Some Ds are like yeah we'll just do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=699s"},{"start_seconds":705,"text":"it we know what ux is um yeah and if you're right in terms of users they they they shouldn't need to know right and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=705s"},{"start_seconds":713,"text":"uh it's still yeah it's something where from the D level if it makes sense so what do you think those like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=713s"},{"start_seconds":721,"text":"essential elements are if you have to distill down the three things for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=721s"},{"start_seconds":727,"text":"the so just just to clarify like what in terms of like what do they me T for like the user Centric approach like when it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=727s"},{"start_seconds":735,"text":"comes to designing um for end users for attracting away as much of complexity as possible so one thing is definitely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=735s"},{"start_seconds":743,"text":"spons transactions 99% of OD transactions right now will gasless transactions um and so so that's definitely one aspect the second aspect","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=743s"},{"start_seconds":752,"text":"I would say um this is emerging and I really hope to see more of it um it's just that still very early it's the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=752s"},{"start_seconds":759,"text":"concept of paying gas in any token so we just supported a trust wallet with their new account construction what with na to app uh we essentially provide them the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=759s"},{"start_seconds":768,"text":"ability to pay gas in over 250 tokens across 7 evm chains um and right now given all the transactions that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=768s"},{"start_seconds":775,"text":"happening like it's very clear what uses are ping pass the first one is uh usdt and the second is that the actual trust","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=775s"},{"start_seconds":783,"text":"W the token because they allow users to pay less gas if you pay trust um so I would say this is like an emerging thing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=783s"},{"start_seconds":791,"text":"that um like for users if they kind of see that uh value ad then they to do it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=791s"},{"start_seconds":798,"text":"and then the third is more so this depends on the like the D wanting it for the user um uh like I we can talk about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=798s"},{"start_seconds":806,"text":"session keys but let's say if it's just for the user themselves um I would say this we still don't have a a world where like if I'm using","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=806s"},{"start_seconds":814,"text":"metamask I you know and this is I think what you guys are doing which is which is great like you know this Consolidated","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=814s"},{"start_seconds":821,"text":"view of I have accounts across um I I have this account and it has EA plus you know these three different chains I know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=821s"},{"start_seconds":828,"text":"a to this new L2 how can I just back send my 10 EA plus three chains and sending more transaction right to the El","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=828s"},{"start_seconds":836,"text":"and I think you know we still don't have that and um you know it would be really awesome to see that right but that is on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=836s"},{"start_seconds":843,"text":"Smart c as well not the current i' say those three things for the at least for the US point of view","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=843s"},{"start_seconds":852,"text":"would be does anyone have anything additional to that yeah I really agree with the first two there I think my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=852s"},{"start_seconds":860,"text":"third might be uh just not making the user do more than one transaction to take an action like I think just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=860s"},{"start_seconds":867,"text":"approvals when I first got like that really confused me I was like I I signed my approval and it's on chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=867s"},{"start_seconds":874,"text":"like why do I not have to swap it my in my wallet so I think we need to get better at one click and kind of bundling","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=874s"},{"start_seconds":882,"text":"all that stuff together so it's seamless and invisible for the user yeah we've sort of uh gotten into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=882s"},{"start_seconds":889,"text":"like one click swaps in the UN swap wallet uh where we have sort of sort of more control I think one of the things that is really confusing to users is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=889s"},{"start_seconds":897,"text":"they're like why do I need e at all it's very confusing uh especially when a user gets sent money and they're just like why do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=897s"},{"start_seconds":906,"text":"I need the second token to do something um and so like not having these native ways of like they don't have to deal with that at all is pretty difficult for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=906s"},{"start_seconds":914,"text":"them especially like when it's a user's first time on chain and they might not even like know what's happening uh so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=914s"},{"start_seconds":921,"text":"think like yeah attracting the away gas is very important and having better ways of doing it yeah I think having to understand","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=921s"},{"start_seconds":930,"text":"that your token might be on might be on like a different L2 or chain or whatever it is that you may know exists is a bit of a complex experience we're probably","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=930s"},{"start_seconds":939,"text":"going to see that with a lot of the like you know pay your friends us Toc for dinner or something and pay it to you on like you know a new L2 even like ZK syn","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=939s"},{"start_seconds":947,"text":"or something that we all know pretty well but maybe they've never heard of that or even have heard of an L2 what that is you have to explain to them oh yeah uh that's supported on these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=947s"},{"start_seconds":955,"text":"exchanges but not on these exchanges just becomes like a frust Austin you mentioned um with the Unis","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=955s"},{"start_seconds":964,"text":"app you're getting to the one with like squats do you believe that the interface is where everything lives and this is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=964s"},{"start_seconds":971,"text":"where all the like users need to worry about and like it shits kind of the competition to one layer below all the other services to provide for them FL","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=971s"},{"start_seconds":979,"text":"action yeah I think users will naturally go to where it's best for them um I'm sort of a believer that like the user doesn't really care about like one or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=979s"},{"start_seconds":987,"text":"two bits they just sort of want their thing and they want it now um and they want like good average execution they just want good outcomes they want their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=987s"},{"start_seconds":994,"text":"things when they want it and we should be competing to give them the best prices best gas best I don't know like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=994s"},{"start_seconds":1002,"text":"experience uh so I think like those things should and have to be abstracted away from the user it's it's quite insane that we're like all right you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1002s"},{"start_seconds":1011,"text":"have to go to your meth to prove or wallet but you can't prove too much and then you got to go set your slowest tolerance and then you got to go do all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1011s"},{"start_seconds":1017,"text":"this stuff it's just like do you really expect like your grandmother to do that and then not lose all their money it's just like not feasible at all and that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1017s"},{"start_seconds":1026,"text":"like that's not just for like us I think it's just for like every interaction they have on sh yeah I think the user needs to get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1026s"},{"start_seconds":1035,"text":"what they expect to get almost every time and right now they may be getting it 95% of the time if were good and a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1035s"},{"start_seconds":1044,"text":"lot of users like you were saying Austin are they will sign their trans action and they'll just stare at it and wait so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1044s"},{"start_seconds":1052,"text":"you know maybe we could just lower block times then they could be waiting slightly less long but also just a danger that they can get in to the next block if they're the type of person that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1052s"},{"start_seconds":1061,"text":"will just sit there anxiously stare and wait for their you know $10,000 swap or whatever to go through uh would be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1061s"},{"start_seconds":1069,"text":"pretty nice and we can always make sure that they could get it in the next block and they're not censored because the Builder is trying to reate the Bas Fe or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1069s"},{"start_seconds":1077,"text":"something speaking of block Max you tweeted earlier today that the perfect chain does not exist um would love to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1077s"},{"start_seconds":1086,"text":"understand like your think you behind that and have everyone's in to comment that yeah I think you I was being","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1086s"},{"start_seconds":1093,"text":"sarcastic that I the the perfect chain doesn't exist right now but we know what it would look like and one of the things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1093s"},{"start_seconds":1101,"text":"there is 200 Mill block times and that just goes back to what I was saying where the user just doesn't want to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1101s"},{"start_seconds":1108,"text":"sitting there waiting for 12 seconds or 24 seconds a bit of making up with the first block uh that's just an anxious and painful experience for the user so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1108s"},{"start_seconds":1117,"text":"think 200 millisecond block times would be a great way to do that another thing I put in there with on my wish list for the perfect chain was a multiple","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1117s"},{"start_seconds":1124,"text":"proposer architecture where in case one of the proposers doesn't want to include you you'll be included by somebody else that just contributes more to that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1124s"},{"start_seconds":1133,"text":"seamless I did the actions I was supposed to do I expected to get my swap p and you can do okay does anyone else have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1133s"},{"start_seconds":1142,"text":"anything to add to their perfect chain any disagreements no I I I think maybe 200","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1142s"},{"start_seconds":1150,"text":"milliseconds you know maybe get it down lower maybe get it down higher but yeah I think the sort of number doesn't super matter I just think it's like 12 seconds","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1150s"},{"start_seconds":1158,"text":"is kind of a lot um I do like a lot of my stuff in the like in the evm ecosystem like on l2s now and it's like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1158s"},{"start_seconds":1167,"text":"kind of nice to be like you refresh you know you do your transaction and you open you know ARB scan or optimism scan it's just done you're like it's done you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1167s"},{"start_seconds":1176,"text":"know I'm happy I don't have to just like wait there and just click it until it you know in indexes or something or it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1176s"},{"start_seconds":1183,"text":"gets M so it's quite nice just like open up armor scan and have it done so I think it's important to learn a lot of times not ra and I think it's not just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1183s"},{"start_seconds":1192,"text":"do I get AIM in the next block it's also when does the probabilistic finality that's enough for the exchange to credit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1192s"},{"start_seconds":1199,"text":"my balance exist and that's one of the like if you ever like move money to coinbase or something like that is really painful just to wait for the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1199s"},{"start_seconds":1208,"text":"whatever whatever has 35 blocks or something that they take lower on base though you know is it lower on base yeah because they have lower block of course","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1208s"},{"start_seconds":1215,"text":"well I think also they they control they also control base so they didn't trust that was thing I noticed I moved money to coinbase from Arbitron then it took a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1215s"},{"start_seconds":1224,"text":"lot longer than it did on base uh is that a technical reason I don't know but it is it was much nicer user experience","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1224s"},{"start_seconds":1231,"text":"to have it fast any other comments on that or I mean this is just like a personal","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1231s"},{"start_seconds":1239,"text":"anecdote um I was in London my wife was in Dubai I had to do a payment you know and uh I was like all right let's just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1239s"},{"start_seconds":1246,"text":"go and Google me share your screen um just go through metam master I need you to swap some things took me 20 took her","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1246s"},{"start_seconds":1255,"text":"20 minutes to to swap one token to usdc and then actually send that and then I said okay this is why you know we exist","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1255s"},{"start_seconds":1263,"text":"as a company because you know fundamentally you know why is it taking um you know my wife who doesn't know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1263s"},{"start_seconds":1271,"text":"much about crypto and me just helping along that Journey around 15 20 minutes to do that and so yeah it just I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1271s"},{"start_seconds":1278,"text":"just uh just to throw off um you know just to add up to what they saying uh one thing I'll add to the exchange example you guys are giving is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1278s"},{"start_seconds":1287,"text":"that even these really fast she elat your chains they tend to there tends to be like a fixed sort of withdrawal fee of like a Dollar Plus which you know for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1287s"},{"start_seconds":1295,"text":"a lot of people maybe isn't a big deal but for a good segment of the people are trying on board actually can make a pretty big difference if you're trying for like five 10 bucks a dollar is a lot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1295s"},{"start_seconds":1303,"text":"um and I guess what's interesting is like these the gas fees are not necessarily I mean if you're using arbitr something like that maybe but I think we actually really need to get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1303s"},{"start_seconds":1312,"text":"that that's where gas fees actually become like a really big Difference Maker it's like that fee needs to be as close to zero as possible if we want people to use this for a broad amount of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1312s"},{"start_seconds":1321,"text":"like the actual real world P use case that didn't exist outside the West speaking of use cases what are the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1321s"},{"start_seconds":1328,"text":"use cases that people are excited about when it comes to this chain of traction I think it'd be kind of nice to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1328s"},{"start_seconds":1338,"text":"uh have swap St one chain and then have like settlement done on uh main net for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1338s"},{"start_seconds":1345,"text":"example I think like it it would be very nice nice if we get abstract away from users and dabs uh that they're on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1345s"},{"start_seconds":1353,"text":"different chains and then they can sort of just like trade where it's the best prices because we see this in practice like you know arbit has better arbiture","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1353s"},{"start_seconds":1360,"text":"liquidity optimism has better optimism liquidity and like users a lot of users actually come to mainten it and they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1360s"},{"start_seconds":1367,"text":"like why is this optimism liquidity bad like well like that's how it is and uh they don't really like that so it'd be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1367s"},{"start_seconds":1375,"text":"kind of nice if like you could do trades on one chain and then have them set just appear in your wallet without actually having to deal with all the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1375s"},{"start_seconds":1382,"text":"complexities work behind bridging and the cost as well I think I'm most excited about gas","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1382s"},{"start_seconds":1390,"text":"sponsorship and paying gas other the tokens actually one of the things we notice in the user flows is that there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1390s"},{"start_seconds":1397,"text":"quite a few users who will queue up a swap and then we'll go and they will see that they just like don't have enough gas or slly don't have enough gas and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1397s"},{"start_seconds":1405,"text":"then they will cancel their swap um and I think obviously they're queuing up the swap they're probably pretty interested in doing it so removing that friction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1405s"},{"start_seconds":1415,"text":"you can see know that's a very tangible segment of the population that wants to swap and if they can just you know pay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1415s"},{"start_seconds":1423,"text":"their gas Fe with a different to in or have sponsor for them they would be much happier yeah I I think there's so many things to be excisive about and you guys","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1423s"},{"start_seconds":1431,"text":"already said quite a few things um one one thing I would say is there was one really cool integration which which we did by mod um using account instruction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1431s"},{"start_seconds":1440,"text":"which enabled um a per aggregator to allow their users to sign a a trade on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1440s"},{"start_seconds":1448,"text":"arbitrum um but the actual trade well sign the transaction arbit but the actual trade is happening on optimism and so this essentially allowing users","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1448s"},{"start_seconds":1457,"text":"to do transactions uh on different chains regardless of where they are and I think we're still yet to see like the best","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1457s"},{"start_seconds":1465,"text":"sort of UI design for this and it would be really cool to see sort of how this could look like in in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1465s"},{"start_seconds":1472,"text":"future yeah I'm excited to give developers the opportunity to not necessarily block themselves into a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1472s"},{"start_seconds":1480,"text":"given ecosystem like maybe they can still you know be a part of the ethereum ecosystem and be in an L2 but they don't necessarily have to pick a specific L2 like there's just like we're going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1480s"},{"start_seconds":1488,"text":"enable ways for them to kind of sit a bit above that uh and I think that that's kind of one of the harrowing choices you have to make as a developer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1488s"},{"start_seconds":1495,"text":"is like which chain or L2 or whatever it is do we focus on and there are some benefits doing that but there are also some serious drawbacks and like that's not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1495s"},{"start_seconds":1503,"text":"necessarily really a core part of what most or at least a lot of these ns are trying to they're trying to build for just end","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1503s"},{"start_seconds":1510,"text":"users and then throughout the permission layer like where do you see most different Innovations new use cases like the value actually flow to and can be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1510s"},{"start_seconds":1519,"text":"captured like What entity ends up being um the successful of all is I'll tell you how I hope it isn't which is the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1519s"},{"start_seconds":1528,"text":"valid the proposer who just basically runs a piece of software and for some reason right now it's getting a huge cut of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1528s"},{"start_seconds":1534,"text":"revenue by running this PBS auction that doesn't really take that much to run I I really hope that we are able to build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1534s"},{"start_seconds":1541,"text":"systems that can keep valid can keep the validator from getting a huge cut of the pie and distribute it to users and to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1541s"},{"start_seconds":1550,"text":"the people who are making these their experience actually good I think Val are important I think they deserve revenue and I think they get revenue from the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1550s"},{"start_seconds":1557,"text":"protocol I don't think they need a huge additional booster revenue from me that comes about due to chain exraction or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1557s"},{"start_seconds":1564,"text":"whatever we we do yeah I think it's also like really really hard today to build systems that don't have uh validators","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1564s"},{"start_seconds":1574,"text":"come first uh we think a lot about how to build systems that uh are good for like arm users be swappers be at LPS and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1574s"},{"start_seconds":1583,"text":"it's just extremely hard because this like first look and last look that like validators block Builders have um I think like Hayden posted a tweet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1583s"},{"start_seconds":1592,"text":"recently like $2 billion has been uh given to to E validators from the unisp protocol and like a lot less of that has","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1592s"},{"start_seconds":1601,"text":"flown to LP flown to or the pro like the Dow itself I I generally think of course","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1601s"},{"start_seconds":1608,"text":"those who own the uses or the front end will ultimately create the most value um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1608s"},{"start_seconds":1615,"text":"and which goes PA and Pa with you know convenance fees are I think going to be um going to be the norm as well for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1615s"},{"start_seconds":1623,"text":"users like you know how we are seeing users not just paying the the s for metam Mass but essentially just wanting to pay higher gas price right to get the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1623s"},{"start_seconds":1632,"text":"executed um so I think if we're able to provide just betterx and people will pay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1632s"},{"start_seconds":1640,"text":"for yeah pretty much Echo all that I think the closer the vi you are the better position you are I think mamas has been a very good example of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1640s"},{"start_seconds":1648,"text":"well can use obviously but uh I think that is you know it may sound like hey","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1648s"},{"start_seconds":1656,"text":"that's not going to users but I think the closer the incentives are to the user the more the user is going to get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1656s"},{"start_seconds":1663,"text":"out of it and the more I mean you're going to see a bunch of places that see there's a lot of value for providing a good experience to the user and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1663s"},{"start_seconds":1671,"text":"they're going to go for a good user experience and I think that's exactly what we want the further away that experience the further way that value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1671s"},{"start_seconds":1679,"text":"flow is from the user and the less it requires you to provide a good experience the less incentive there is to do it and I also think like if you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1679s"},{"start_seconds":1687,"text":"look at credit card points right um You Look at Chase every year their margin on their credit card rewards program is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1687s"},{"start_seconds":1695,"text":"squeezed even tighter because everybody else realizes hey there's a lot of value from providing a good credit card program that has good features and good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1695s"},{"start_seconds":1702,"text":"rewards and they have to spend more and more to keep that up and I hope for the users that that's what's going to happen","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1702s"},{"start_seconds":1710,"text":"in the end here as well yeah it's quite hard to sort of like of like all the transactions like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1710s"},{"start_seconds":1719,"text":"very little that flows to the entities who sort of like build the protocol and things like that and so it's very difficult like we could cut down a part","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1719s"},{"start_seconds":1728,"text":"of the Fe going to certain users or certain like subsets of like validators and things like that and then cut down cost from everybody uh by just providing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1728s"},{"start_seconds":1737,"text":"a little bit of that what was going to validat to others um it's very difficult to sort of like the economics of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1737s"},{"start_seconds":1745,"text":"making money as a protocol or a dow or like a you know entity in the space is very difficult difficult at this moment just because like a lot of the value is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1745s"},{"start_seconds":1752,"text":"weirdly flowing now to wrap it up um one last thing I want to ask is like what would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1752s"},{"start_seconds":1759,"text":"you want to see from a ux perspective change like not in the near term but 5 years out and like how feasible is this prediction here be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1759s"},{"start_seconds":1768,"text":"I just want to know I I I would really like a better way to do like gas estimates on l2s and like I think like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1768s"},{"start_seconds":1777,"text":"Foundry actually just may have to fix this today they just fixed their gas profile there um so I may be wrong right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1777s"},{"start_seconds":1784,"text":"now but it's uh we were doing like a gas buling for L2 contracts it was just like possible to figure out like how much we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1784s"},{"start_seconds":1793,"text":"were actually saving our users because of what the cost of Po and mainten that is not included um but I actually may be wrong now I think maybe not very fix","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1793s"},{"start_seconds":1800,"text":"that today addess is always one step ahead no um I guess my","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1800s"},{"start_seconds":1809,"text":"biggest request is can we get some shorter block times whether it's on Main net or on the l1s or whatever I just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1809s"},{"start_seconds":1817,"text":"think users need to be more quickly interacting with a chain and have more feedback and I think that will make","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1817s"},{"start_seconds":1825,"text":"their experience so much better I I would love to see us using uh well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1825s"},{"start_seconds":1832,"text":"at least myself to be using crypto more by mobile um I'm using it a bit but it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1832s"},{"start_seconds":1839,"text":"like what maybe 15% of my activity I'd love to see like it being more more than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1839s"},{"start_seconds":1846,"text":"80 90% And so I don't think we have the apps for that yet nor the relevant tooling so I I love to see us","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1846s"},{"start_seconds":1856,"text":"get I would like to be able to go between chains and not acquire the gas tokens so however we can make that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1856s"},{"start_seconds":1864,"text":"happen hey well thank you again everyone and a big thanks to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1864s"},{"start_seconds":1877,"text":"panelists","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o&t=1877s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=BwWiao9k80o","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/BwWiao9k80o"}