{"id":"8iJKc8knANM","title":"Breaking Down Chain Abstraction: How Rollup is Simplifying Web3 Integration","description":"In this episode host Altan Tutor (CEO of Nuffle Labs) and Michael Kelly (CPO of Open Forest Protocol) sit down with Andy Cavanaugh & Robert Klages (Founders of The Rollup) to discuss chain abstraction and share more about their company, The Rollup. The Rollup is a blockchain / crypto media company specializing in writing and reporting on the development of L1 blockchains, L2s, dApps, new infrastructure primitives, and why it all matters!\n\n• Chain abstraction involves abstracting away the complexity of blockchain infrastructure and providing a seamless user experience. \n• The chain abstraction stack is modular and consists of various components such as permissions, order flow, solver networks, and settlements. \n• The focus should be on cross-chain interaction and bridging, as well as improving the on-ramp experience and reducing gas fees. \nIn the future, users are expected to participate in the Web3 economy through wallets that integrate with popular platforms like Amazon, using Ethereum for payments. \n• The intersection of L2s, modular chains, and ZK rollups will play a crucial role in achieving chain abstraction. Chain abstraction is a key concept in the modularization of blockchain networks. \n• Front-end applications are becoming more consumer-facing, while the back-end focuses on modularity and chain abstraction. \n• Fragmentation is a challenge in Ethereum's roll-ups, and interoperability solutions are needed. The on-ramp and off-ramp experiences are important areas for improvement in the blockchain space. \n• Shared security and restaking have the potential to impact the ecosystem. \nThe best-case scenario for shared security is the successful implementation of slashing, proper risk management, and new application possibilities. \n• The worst-case scenario for shared security is the failure of risk management, leading to liquidation cascades and the collapse of the experiment.\n\nChapters\n00:00 Introduction to Chain Abstraction \n08:32 The Modular Stack and Components \n10:18 Focus Areas for Chain Abstraction \n25:13 The Future of User Participation \n26:57 The Role of L2s, Modular Chains, and ZK Rollups \n27:27 The Future of Chain Abstraction \n29:45 Addressing the Challenges of Fragmentation \n31:42 The Importance of On-Ramp and Off-Ramp Experiences \n33:03 The Potential Impact of Shared Security and Restaking \n47:03 Best-Case Scenario: Successful Implementation of Shared Security \n48:49 Worst-Case Scenario: Failure of Risk Management in Shared Security \n\nAbout The Rollup\n\nThe Rollup is a podcast and interview platform where Web3 leaders and experts share insights on their companies and the latest crypto news. It's also an educational hub for all things Web3 and cryptocurrency.\n\nSocial Channels\n\nTwitter/X:\n@ayyyeandy\n@robbie_rollup\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nNEAR AI: https://near.ai/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near \nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\n#NEAR #nearprotocol #NEARAI","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-09-01T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/8iJKc8knANM/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstract.com for more information you guys are known as Andy and Robbie from rollup uh sometimes you know you you you expect Robie did show up but Andy shows up even though the picture is up there so it's it's quite funny um but I have a question for y all so I guess like CH abstraction means different things for for everyone I know you guys that like 24 different interviews on CH abstraction like what the hell is this like how do we kind of how do we kind of simplify this for everyone cuz you know when I talk with the bunch of different folks they it means something different but if you can generalize this term and be like I want to give a clear explanation for folks that don't know like what what that would be yeah so I'm happy to start um I would say that chain abstraction is the idea of um using uh blockchain technology without realizing that it's blockchain so basically like you know when you go and you you deposit money into your bank account like it's actually your bank is actually like a decentralized bank maybe it's a savings account right and it's earning interest but you don't realize that it's blockchain or when you're going and you're um you know you're trading and you're trading on Robin Hood it's actually like not Robin Hood but it's like um you know know maybe it's a decentralized you know Unis swap right but like Unis swap is so sophisticated and advanc and has you know so much adoption that people don't realize that it's even blockchain anymore and so yeah like this idea of chain abstraction and he's got the map up like this idea here is basically that all of this uh this bridging settlement going from chain to chain trading back and forth whether it's an intent or it's a canonical Bridge or it's a message passing protocol um all of that liquidity and and infrastructure is all abstracted away from the end user um it's basically like the technology underneath uh akin to like an Amazon web server or like a you know uh like a server cloud compute you know you really don't know like any of the infrastructure that's powering when you use Google meet or Riverside or Zoom right like all of that uses Cloud compute it it has a variety of different infrastructure uh Tech technologies that are that are all being used concurrently to to power it um but you don't interact with any of that you hardly even know it you just know uh the connection with the brand and their product um and that's all that the experience is yeah I mean just like just to add some color on the map so couple things on chain abration I think a lot of people are confused thinking that it's just like one team going to do it like just near is going to going to solve all of chain abstraction which is just like not the reality for any of these teams in in in the map I think like n's done a really good job particles done a good job um socket's done a pretty good job as of recent I I know layer zero has been pretty kind of adamant on pushing this so a lot of these teams I think need to kind of collaborate together so like the the goal of this map was to basically show that this chain abstraction stack is like inherently modular in its own right or it's kind of like itemized based on different teams that need to collaborate to achieve like this kind of end State and so for us I think that we're thinking about it like chain obstruction is is this spectrum of users who want to have different uh uh kind of security or risk preferences where some users may not care at all about what chain they're on and some kind of make care more um and I think that what what we're basically seeing is like uh this notion of a single wallet interface like a single account which you can ask access all your different L2 and uh L1 uh uh chain chain balances on and basically be able to use that on any application within any uh chain that that that that wallet is kind of compatible with um and so kind of how I see it going is we have a a wallet which is kind of a connected to a metamask or to a rabbi which you kind of import your private key into one balance particle Mir Zion or Labs all these things working on that at kind of like the top of the stack there on the permissions and orchestrations and then when you as a user go to interact with Unis swap on base you know but you have tokens on um you know on on arbitrum and on near and on salana then Inc comes these kind of orderflow sources and auctions and solver networks and solvers who are basically going to uh provide this interface for you to be able to go and do these types of swaps and interactions and they're kind of behind theen you have these intent based kind of solver networks Ever Clear clearing um transport Layers hyperlane Union Etc all kind of settling the these these kind of transactions behind um and so like my Grand Vision is like we have these these wallets which you can interact on all these different chains and then that's on like the front end on like the on like the ux facing side for the users so users should really not have to care where their funds are they should just have to care of what apps that they want to use and then behind the scenes you've got these these kind of sequencing networks these shared sequencers these intent based Bridges and these kind of slower more secure transport layers that are facilitating the process so that when I have my my tokens on on one chain and I want to interact on a chain on another and I click that button on my wallet that has all my balances on it it it it like almost like in sub one second or sub 5 seconds and even sub like 500 500 milliseconds happens behind the scenes and as a user I just get the result of the transaction Without Really realizing that I'm using solver networks and intense and across and layer zero and so that's kind of like the vision and that's what we wanted to showcase on the map I'm really not sure if that made it easier to understand like I think the question was to kind of make it simpler that may have made it Le less less simple but hope that kind of like helps clarify our vision as well as like how we're seeing so to simplify it pretty much there how many fives like if you were to just say hey I'm a chain abstraction project you guys said well like that if you can list those out maybe that's helpful and then we can we can deep dive into kind of some of the sections I know like for example you know there's there's a lot right like it's we can't just say there's one project that like does it all I think there's just a just a collaborative effort like modularity as well yeah so permissions orderflow solar networks and then obviously settlement so that's kind of the four that five actually that I mean standards and everything but like none of the users will care about it I guess like that's more builder oriented I think that's important like users are going to care about different levels of granularity and so there are the users that aren't going to care about any of these four they're going to look at this maybe they you know see chain abstraction as one General Amorphis blob and they don't dive into it maybe they don't even care about chain abstraction at all and they just care about you know whatever it is that they're buying on on any particular website so I I'm looking at this kind of like as like an optin you know letting the user kind of decide what level of granularity they want um and I what like what depth are they trying to understand where their money is and where their data is and then giving them the option if they want to know more they can um but not showing them that right off the bat just kind of like letting them decide how deep they want to take their own knowledge Journey so maybe this is a spicy question but is it a like from a tech standpoint is it a mus have or is it a nice to have right there's two differences there so uh what do you guys think after doing this research yeah I mean like so I think the must have right now and like what the entire space should be focusing on is just the cross chain interaction so for like basically bridging and users on different l2s and like gas extractions like I think the The Ordering of like processing transactions clicking sign paying gas trying to figure out what that all is about for like from the user perspective is extremely confusing and I also think that bridging is a huge obstacle so those two for me are like what all chain of instruction providers should be all in on right now cuz frankly it's a little bit confusing and Broad um and I think those are mus haves and then I think a lot of these are like some of them are like nice to have like I think like after we can get that then I think like a really nice to have now but eventually a must have is is going to be like a better onramp experience on and off ramp I think that's kind of like a a nice St but I think that the cross chain and gas right now now is like what what all teams should be all in on um you know and I think that that these teams should be doing a better job of showing the products as they are now showing more demos showing the applications showing what this feels like getting users to actually uh you know download their wallets because a lot of teams are like we're here and it's happening um but but like I don't think people feel that it's real on like ironically it feels abstract still um so I think that like if team can focus on these demos and showing that like what what these wallets are like and what this experience is like and F and and do that just on Cross chain and gas as the mus haves then I think that we can get to like some of the nice to Hales later next year but I think those are the first two obstacles that we have to kind of cross and maybe just to flip that on its head looking you know in the three to five year time Horizon what would be your base case scenario for what like a a consumer or crypto user would be expected to do on their own in order to participate in you know the web 3 economy are they doing it through custodian are they going to have their own wallet and they are handling their keys kind of how do you see the the average user of crypto Downstream yeah I think like the cryptographic nature of private keys and public keys and that kind of like seed phrase concept is going to stay around like obviously in perpetuity I just think that the way that that that they'll be stored will be changed so I think there's there's probably room for some design based on like multi-party computation where the users can own like bits and parts of their keys but like they can be stored in other areas or it can be done in in some sort of like social login or social recovery manner um so so I think that we'll see like that Improvement happen I think like some users will still opt in to like just write their seed phrase down or um you know do it in that way but then I think generally like I think the main hurdle is just going to be getting an a wallet off the App Store I do think a lot of these wallets are eventually going to be on the App Store as well for Apple and Google um and then I think it's like just going to be the the the hurdle is going to be just like it is when you're going to send uh funds to Schwab to to invest in stocks or Robin Hood I think it's just going to be sending your money from your bank account to your crypto wallet somehow via some on-ramp um and then I expect once they get there that the experience will be extremely similar to that of like using a you know a venmo or using like a application as we know it today um but I think that the big like the the big hurdle is going to be the seed phrase and kind of like this like the wallet security which is kind of where your custodian asmic comes in and then I also think that like that on-ramp thing that I was getting to after we kind of solve this cross chaining gas abstractions I think is going to be the the hurdle for people but I think that's what they'd be expecting I tend to agree on especially the App Store thing like uh I saw they announced Apple announced today that they're going to open up their payment chip and so circle is going to integrate that and have more native usdc payments um I think probably just tap to pay right when we're at like literally buying coffee with crypto could become a reality where you know that was a that was a goal for a long time um so yeah I think that's happening now time scale three to five years yeah I think like just taking that to to to another level which would be like more fungibility between dollars and stable coins I think could become a lot easier um more n like mobile first uh defi mobile first crypto uh in terms of Wallets on the App Store definitely definitely agreed there and then yeah like I I really don't anticipate uh consumers changing their behavior too much like kind of Alton's question about like what you know what are they expected to do is in a must have or or or nice to have like I tend to think even on you know that time scale of like 3 to five years people are just going to buy stuff on Amazon and I think it's pretty simple I think it's going to be like connect or sign in with ethereum I think once we have Smart accounts there's going to be like kind of the transition of wallets and integrating into like apple but then there's also going to be upgrades to the etherum contracts and the ethereum wallet infrastructure maybe that takes into account NPC but like upgrading the ethereum technology for account abstraction in smart accounts such that we have social recovery and we can just sign in with ethereum like we have signed in with Google and sign in with apple then you know I just connect my ethereum account to Amazon and I have all of my crypto on hand so that I can just use it to buy stuff on Amazon people still just buy stuff on Amazon they don't really know the difference but they're just connecting a different account that they use to pay for stuff and then all of that data is integrated into the entire on chain economy we can use chain abstraction to power a lot of that you know maybe your wherever your usdc is right on optimism or arbitrum it gets routed from you know Amazon becomes an orderflow Source your your stable coins get orchestrated from whatever Network it's on to to wherever Amazon accepts accepts payment or if Amazon doesn't even want to accept crypto you know they use one of these offramp uh sources like Circle to to offramp the crypto and then Amazon just gets Fiat don't even know that they're accepting crypto yeah I have a point here so like all the ones we see here are pretty much decentralized right and and I guess Robbie you mentioned you know usdc I got quite excited about the news just because you know I was thinking about like the what developers can do but circle is centralized so I guess like are we are we going to see I mean chain abstraction is a thing that already exists but exchanges if you think about it right like you go to binance you can do whatever you like but are we going in these two worlds and are these like separate worlds or they they Collide like what do what do you guys think and not all of the projects on this map are decentralized like winter mute the solver is totally centralized yeah even Unis swap X is like they're pretty centralized like they're just passing their order flow and and Suave I think is on here too and me boost is another form of private order flow like it's like privacy and and decentralization is like used as a tool but then there's all kind like people are using these private order flow sources as a way to avoid meev and so like would you rather you know have like more privacy less decentralization or would you rather get meevd and there's trade-offs to both I think I I think people only care about decentralization when it comes to security um not so much when it comes to like liquidity and some other things and so we're going to see like some pretty takes it's not I I used to be a decentralization maxi and I think I've gotten a little bit more uh Center on that scale um but yeah I tend of think like solvers and intense Centric approaches a lot of these are offchain actors and then they cryptographically and verifiably prove uh the outcome on chain and I think we're going to start to see a lot more of that where you know a lot of action happens offchain but then it's proven and settled on chain and then that's a nice compromise where we still get a lot of onchain verifiability but it's not maximally decentralized not everything is on chain makes sense well thanks for putting this through I think this is helpful for everyone that you know to come in and see yeah I'm just curious Alon what do you guys like when you first look at this like what is this like other than being like what the hell like there's way too many teams like what do you guys think like what's your like on the design or like just like from this like chain abstraction ecosystem like how are you guys thinking about this with regards to how this map looks like does it make sense does is is there a category that you think is like more important or more developed than others um yeah I mean like from from my sense I mean like so a can abstraction has been around for a while I guess like people understand that wall abstraction like people started to get at orchestration like I I know near does it like I used to be at near myself and we still part of the new ecosystem uh you know like I I don't get it as an normal user but I think crypto Builders will get it like the the middle stack I think like a lot of folks like you 50% like what is a solver Network what is a solver what do orderflow right like you need to be a bit of an advanced user but I think like the top maybe the the the way you structured is like settlement infra I think people get what settlement is at this point I mean there's still debate around whether settlement is real or not I mean you know you talk about this but there's certain things like makes sense to me and if somebody wants to learn more I mean this is a starting point I'm like oh what is an order flow like oh let me just learn about that and then what is suave I can go learn about that what is a so it's it's a good point like I that was one of the things I've when I was actually publicly said like is there a map that I can I can go and find stuff I think it's a good sort of a starting point for folks to study right and that's that's what people crypto media should do which which kind of appreciate you guys for doing that yeah I like it I think it's it's definitely uh a comprehensive landscape what I usually defer back to is uh elephant in the room tends to be the unit economics and the kind of understanding of how does how does the economics actually work under the hood especially when you're dealing with different chains that have different uh you know fee structures and also uh block times uh Etc so yeah I I I think this is a good starting point but I think i' I I would bet if you could take this and like go deep on it and look at the intricacies of how each of these solutions for ports to work scale it up and say let's imagine a million users on each one what happens with the unit economics it' probably reveal a lot more about what's actually real versus what's fake yeah we we did have an article that went along with this and we did a Twitter space where people got in and they discussed it Twitter space got a little spicy um and yeah the the entire explanation of how we how we kind of like contextualized the categories our rationale for how these categories work together um is all in this article so I I encourage people to check this out on the roll up.co um and yeah Michael I think yeah like if you guys put in the show notes that would be that would be great so people can check it out yeah I was say I like the idea of the economics and like it's funny because all of these team like all these categories and these teams are going to have totally custom implementations of how they work together and they and they share value but I think a general rule of thumb uh I'm going to get toasted for saying this because it is so much more nuanced but like at a very high level it's all auctions like all of these teams are just bidding like up the and that's one of the things I like about the maps how we structured is like settlement is like the base layer and then it goes up the stack as far as like uh like more consumer facing and so you can kind of think about like the settlement agencies are like bidding for for uh well it go go down the stack I guess like the solvers and the solver networks are bidding for order flow and then they have to get the proposers bid for the blocks um so you kind of just have like these different auction mechanisms where everyone just bids for the for the right to provide their service yeah so would you say that's the I guess if you if a builder comes in today and wants to build something here like is that is that the one that people should focus on or you know what are you guys opinioned there or you just don't care like hey just come in and contribute to the ecosystem I mean I tend to think like apps are I I'm still biased towards apps like just because I think that's sexier like that's what I want to use you know like there is plenty of infrastructure I think there could be more infrastructure to make it faster and cheaper but ultimately like I think all of us here and probably the listeners of this are like Advanced enough to know how to use the thing um and so if I'm talking selfishly like yeah I want I want more apps you know that are fun to use and actually there's a guy I just came across his account yesterday is uh Ox designer who posted like this really long thread of like some super cool user interfaces of stuff um and he gave me a ton of ideas like even the Amazon thing I I gotta like kind of shout him out for for that because that really puts it into perspective of how you know that's what I think normal users and advanced users could could con Verge to just using that on a more daily basis yes this is the thread some of this stuff is so cool and I can just picture like signing in with ethereum and then you get access to like you know that is expensive but it's okay tickets yeah right can afford that 3kk USD some of these things are so dope like the fast checkout the thing on Amazon the integrated search even the data the there's one on here I think it's this one the browsing data there's some projects that like Camp network is going to start to like let people let advertisers bid on your data I believe um is how it's going to look in like kind of a a futuristic state so like imagine like you know getting paid for your data I mean didn't didn't this is all like so applicable to the chain abstraction conversation right now all of this stuff like when people ask like what's the vision it's like it's not necessarily like Adam Cochran's uh prediction success on X but it's like it's like all these little Integrations of like what crypto can do and what blockchains are are capable of but just like plugging them into so maybe when we're thinking about like we need more apps maybe we just need to like plug in the current Tech that we have into already popular stuff rather than like build completely new things with social coordination like I I wish it was an engineering problem and you could just throw the research gigar brains at it but to integrate something into Amazon's front end like maybe like I don't know if bezos's got a sign off on it but like someone you know deep in Amazon has to like be the decision maker but and into Walmart you know all this is super super cool and buy with ethereum or signing with ethereum I I think that's going to be a game Cher for how we connect these things and then chain abstraction Powers all of that using all the infrastructure providers on the map it says old it says Trump and Biden it's kind of funny that's good thanks for sharing that guys I mean the ZX designer has been doing an amazing job uh in terms of like if you guys can actually like pick ping him or her I don't know the but essentially just say hey build us some chain abstracted stuff I think it would be it'd be quite cool to use that word there um awesome so I guess like maybe tell me more about you know you guys talk a lot about like the l2s modular chains and and sort of ZK rollups like maybe we we cover this whole chain abstraction stuff but like how did these all kind of because I know I've seen Andy kind of start talking about these things how do these kind of intersect and and Collide like you guys probably have some thoughts there definitely yeah so I don't know if your if your audience has um heard of the modular mullet but I think it now is is a great time to kind of showcase what this means for for your your audience so the idea of kind of like how these how these Technologies are going to interact from our View kind of inspired by a lot of these uh um kind of modular players and some Nick from Celestia and some other teams in in Everclear and things is we got this idea of like so I was kind of talking about okay so we're going to have chain abstracted ux on the front end and on the back end it's going to be powered uh like underneath by these really fast intent-based uh inoperability protocols or some sort of block building and shared sequencing networks or these kind of Transport layers like hyperlane like Union like layer zero so that's kind of like how I see the actual ux happening on the on the actual kind of uh user facing and what's going to be powering it but like what are users going to be doing they're going to be interacting with modular blockchains as applications as app chains or as apps on rollups in the future and that's where the demand and for these chain abstraction and interrupt Solutions is going to come from so how do I see these kind of playing together I it it comes to this kind of meme of this modular mullet um where basically what what we end up with is we have this this kind of better ux and this kind of uh interoperability power chain abstracted ux but on the back end you've got users wanting to access apps that are having their own Sovereign block space operating as app chains or applications on an L2 um and so yeah I mean that's kind of how I'm seeing you have to you have you have something yeah makes sense you have something to add Robbie or is it the probably follow the same kind of logic no yeah I mean I I prescribed to that as well like um yeah I think um we're going to continue to see this like uh proliferation of like more apps more infrastructure um it is and and more ch and we have to like really think about like all right what what time scale are we on cuz like all of the stuff we saw on Ox designer all of that is like three to five years at least like to get the social coordination and incentives right to like Implement into like these already large scale existing businesses Amazon Walmart Etc on on a more like here and now it is very much modular mullet like this is the modular mullet era um chain abstract front end like PE real people the users that are using stuff on chain are using these front ends and they're using chain abstraction in the front end and modularity is powering it underneath I kind of tend to think like and if we had those like front and back like Shan abstration is going to move further to the back as we go like down the road and then it'll be more of like the brands that are already consumer facing Amazon like those are going to continue to be the front and they will they will again be the front of the mullet but we'll CH will start to have modularity in the back chain abstraction in the middle and then like these existing front ends and large businesses in the front um in the long run yeah or just like good or just like blockchains and l2s that actually do a good job of like throwing top of funnel like like what like what Luc was trying to do with abstract chain like that as an example Bas has done a good job salana has even done a great job as as well right like those those chains that do a good job at at top of funnel will like will will really dominate on that front and and I just want to like un unpack a little bit why this is happening like why do we even need transction and why are we even talking about this like we're like big modular Bulls we've Angel invested in a ton of modular projects we work with a ton of the projects we agree with the thesis but it's un it's it's undeniable that this this fragmentation of ethereum's rollups and of these all these different chains is an unavoidable consequence of the modular thesis of the idea of expanding block of expanding block space of growing Sovereign sequencing of having opch app chains of having kind of this expansion off of this Noisy Neighbor problem it's like the you achieve something and then you kind of create a bigger larger problem and I think that we have to kind of address that that that is the biggest BET right now of the modro thesis like the BET of the maio thesis is that we are going to be able to figure out how we can put these apps and these chains together in a chain abstracted way powered by interoperability Solutions underneath and that we're going to be able to do it quickly and do it well such that we can compete with salana apto Su SE Avalanche and these kind of larger l1s which honestly I think are going to get all Blended together anyways if train abstraction happens the the the like the the end result if we can do that is almost like unfathomable because it's like we can get this ecosystem of all these different chains and all these apps and like all seamlessly interoperate we can outscale any L1 even if they just centralized to the max we can still theoretically outscale them as and definitely if we're trying to compete on kind of like censorship resistance and kind of the risk here is that we can't figure this fragmentation problem out and then it's too difficult to solve and so I just wanted to add that kind of perspective as to why we're even having this conversation why chain exraction is really growing and why interoperability and intense are really growing in terms of Mind share it's because this problem which is the problem of the Mau thesis is the fragmentation of chains liquidity and users the problem that the modu thesis is solving is the congestion of etherum L1 of other l1s of noisy neighbors and of application Builders not being able to uh basically control their own transaction ordering their own sequencing earn me and kind of have a customizable execution environment so we solved that but we're kind of faced here and so funnily enough we asked Jill from espresso on the podcast that just went out today what is going to be the solution or what's going to be the problem that we solve next after we put these together and um this is where I I I got to the nice to have she said on ramping she said this on and off ramp experience is going to be the next kind of like big hurdle that the space is going to have to solve so kind of all over the place there but I wanted to kind of just tie that together with what Rob was saying with regards to the top of funnel the mullet and kind of the problem space that we're even having this podcast about as we are now yeah man definitely I'm I'm super excited about that for sure yeah yeah I I mean I I think that's spot on like this this the congestion in ethereum gas fees gave birth to modularity and you know we saw all l1s we saw l2s we saw side chains all of that is born out of this congestion on on ethereum and then modularity gave birth to chain abstraction because we wanted we wanted modular we wanted more networks we wanted app chains and rollups but then once you have all of these things like you lose out on the unification and the and the easy user experience when everything was just an app on ethereum and so now we need to connect it all we need to abstract it all and that's where we get chain abstraction and and ultimately this will come full circle like I believe in in what Jill is saying what Andy's saying with on on and off ramps like I want to see the day where we get orchestration amongst Fiat and onchain services and I have an intent to like submit something and then my my transaction gets fronted on my destination Fiat bank and then it the the solver gets repaid whether that's onchain or they get they get repaid in Fiat and then we don't have is you know we don't have onchain to to Fiat take three to five business days right it happens seamlessly like a venmo or or stable coin transaction like even bank to bank like this can all be innovated and I think it will be innovated with blockchain with solvers with intense Centric models like I think that'll that'll continue to innovate blockchain and then blockchain will just eat the existing traditional Financial World blockchain eats trfy that's that's a good uh that's a good that's a good headline um cool guys I mean we talked about a bunch of stuff right we we did talk about chain abstraction uh obviously we're all modular Bulls I'm I'm there too um but how do we like are there other things that you guys are seeing that people are excited about as a kind of like a I would say you're not a media company but I guess like seeing seeing the space from you know covering all these other projects we're like hey like you know this is we talked about apps like what's exciting to you guys for the next sort of one to two years and maybe five years yeah I just wanted to say real quick as well that like one of the greatest things about crypto is the composability of crypto and like the way that like these like money Legos can interoperate with each other and like we can kind of Stack different Primitives on top of each other whether it be chains themselves parts of chains or applications and so like figuring out how to bring that and blend that all back together for this ma space is like the biggest that's like the biggest Northstar and I think that like that's like the that's one of the the strongest bull cases for crypto as a technology in blockchain I think that's what that Designer guy was kind of hitting on in that thread as well so just wanted to kind of make make that point as well with regards to like what we're seeing uh the shared security area is getting extremely extremely interesting so I layers symbiotic nectar Network um and I'm missing one who are doing a lot of work in reaking yeah Carrick um there that whole Space is getting very interesting the igir AVS ecosystem is exploding uh nuff's there you guys are doing some some some great work there um the rup is going to do a big series about this coming up soon that's some Alpha so that in particular is very interesting to us because like slashing is going live I lay is going to be slashing igen tokens people are like what this isn't very secure so they're probably going to have they're probably going to end up doing eth and then eventually like Bitcoin or other assets as well Soul Etc perhaps near is doing some cool reaking stuff then you have symbiotic doing their own kind of mix on it you've got nectar doing DVT with reaking and then you've got a plethora of avss who are supporting all of these different networks and relying on them for security and slashing is going live very soon so it feels like this idea of like this whole ecosystem is about to get like turned on and like we're about to kind of see like how real this is and like how how much of a blowup risk there is and like what's going to go wrong what's going to go right uh we're going to see which LRT providers are the best at selecting their uh delegations we're going to see which node operators are competent enough to delegate stake properly and not get wrecked we're going to see which which which projects are are smart enough to not go directly to node operators and instead go to lrts with quants to to to do kind of their delegations we're going to see the the wars of symbiotic and igen layer between who's going to give the best yields and rewards and tokens and support and so I think this whole Space is like going to be a really really fun thing to be a part of the next like six months um obviously like the ma space and then also like the AI stuff but I don't have too much insight into the AI so so much but definitely going to start paying more attention to this whole like abs and shared security yeah it's quite interesting like it's a game right it's a game between bunch of different actors so that's why I got super interested in this when I was like last year was like oh wow actually you know like I did a whole maybe like small thread because terum was talking about it was like you know like how much security does an ads need so like who needs to be smart there right so lrts and Walts need to be super smart because they need to be switching back and forth they're the Risk Managers of the whole Space right so it's quite interesting I'm excited about that how about you Robbie same I mean I think that is definitely it over the next six months like I don't have a ton to add on that time frame I I do think Ian ler is going to I think they're going to turn on slashing I think they're going to incorporate Bitcoin and soul into some of those like uh restablecer rollups AI I I am still excited about AI I think it it you know it gets so much hype but I I do think it's going to start to make an impact on uh more industries that have not been impacted by technology in quite a long time um and I think it's really really important to make sure that it stays open source and so I think that will continue to proliferate um generally I'm excited for like uh this new era of blockchain where yes I think it'll continue to eat traditional Finance it is a game there's incentives and uh and that's where defi like most if not all of it is still defi um but I think like we're starting to see uh blockchain take on cloud compute and like we have verifiable compute that igen layer enables um and and all these reaking providers enable um and I think blockchain verifiable compute will start to take on cloud compute as the latency comes down and the costs come down uh I'm pretty excited for the day that verifiable compute uh becomes uh on the scale of cloud compute and then we have like these large scale businesses start to question you know why am I paying this much to Amazon AWS or uh or Google CL cloud or Microsoft Azure you know why am I not using an open source verifiable blockchain if it is in fact cheaper and faster and it's more secure and it's verifiable like then the incentives become such that it just makes sense to migrate uh onto the thing that provides a better service and so I think that could uh that could bring the next wave of users in a sense it could bring this next wave of transactions uh when blockchains are at that level of throughput yeah I would agree awesome guys well um what else you guys want to share like is this something coming in roll up is because you guys did a Rebrand I guess uh but is there more I guess you guys started talking about bit more abss and the kind of this cool space but what's for the future for you guys like what's the what's the vision uh coming into because it's we talked about a lot of Shan abstraction but I kind of what talk about you guys what's how the how the future looks like yeah I think um I think we're hitting a Groove like I think the rollup is in a spot where we're starting to uh to have really fun and Innovative conversations um we're we're you know again like having a lot more of these open workshops where there's ideas like you know we have all these live streams and panels a lot of those are one-on-one conversations or like general just round taes but I like when I like when the pen hits the paper the fingers start typing and the code starts like really cranking and and we start running into you know how can these projects work together you know how how can teams collaborate and and if we're um kind of a shelling point for those conversations that's that's when I really start to see value um there's tons of stuff we got into the pipeline if Annie wants to share any of that I'll I'll let him SP we got a i lers content series and a share security content series coming out October going to 204 token 2049 September so catch you guys there um we got uh uh we'll be announcing the uh VM Wars podcast under the in a few weeks so that might be some Alpha depends cut cut before that if that doesn't work yeah so that was part I wasn't sure hit that part John and then can I expand the rollup from there um and yeah going to scale the team a bit gonna um uh kind of bring on one more person we have a couple you know eight or nine peeps now team's going well yeah just got a the new sight the new look just really trying to keep the quality up keep the keep the uh brand content really high and just grow the audience grow the grow the numbers um and just keep kind of pushing and taking advantage of the attention that the rollup has right now that crypto has for the coming year 18 months or so um and then kind of more longer term it's going to end up I think end up transitioning into more of like a more of like a consultancy and just kind of less content and less kind of uh in the trenches uh and more like uh higher level work and potentially spinning out some sort of like uh research type of of of arm or something to to that extent probably going to do like a next iteration of our site as well um so this is like V1 we want to have like some sort of like members lounge or like some sort of like research uh kind of arm that that we can either put behind a pay wall or figure out a way to kind of get people to buy into that or at least want to read it um and then yeah man I think just like keep on keeping on what do you guys want to see like do you want to see like the rollup become like a hub of like you know you can do swaps there you can do deposits or earn yield or like just continue to learn more research more like you know findings on on like we found are successful for projects what what would you guys want to see like as you're listening to a podcast you know like like what kind of actions do you want to take yeah I mean like honestly think like we need people that do content in crypto and bring those voices so I think you guys been doing a good job there um building a product I mean you guys will do well probably in the because you have a distribution if you do a product people will use the product like bankless guys did it you know like and I think some folks are using the products I I think as the as the brand grows I think you guys have a shot to do like both um maybe launch a roll up or something and be kind of funny rollup rollup uh or like uh um but or you know something like that eventually could could make sense if you ask me and or like maybe inperson meetups like I don't know like B Works have been doing some some great job there you know you guys can full like specific like to to roll up and if you guys going to like cuz this this Market is got to grow I think in my opinion and the more you kind of hone in there I think the guys will the guys will continue to do better I think that if you stay on the on the education vein the biggest blocker right now and this includes among VCS among other builders and among people and Foundations is an inadequate understanding of how these architectures work so a lot of times you know people who grew up in crypto in the eth era never really learned well the architecture of near or Solana really in terms of how it handles certain problems or certain tradeoffs same thing now happening with the reaking architecture and uh you know what nuffle is doing as like kind of a a middle middle layer unification layer if you will it's it's such a toll I think for most people to keep up with with all the changes but these changes are going to bring massive opportunities for new companies new Investments Etc and I think the the kind of effort that your average investor or Builder has to do to even like understand the the game is still really far from where it should be right so most people at least in my experience build or or engage with a certain stack because their friends did or because someone gave them money to do that not because it was the best stack for what they were interested in doing or you know uh it served their use case optimally and I I I think there's a killer opportunity to go hard hard on Allon you guys actually do some great diagrams do go do go hard on like the architecture diagrams in your in the in the match made in heaven the nff blog you guys do like great just pictures of how how the product is going to work and kind of how that unravels I think if you guys could like Corner that market and be like hey we can simplify chain abstraction and you know all that complexity that there's there's real value there yeah yeah n n has great people so we're we're kind of happy there just so as roll up so well nice to have you guys maybe a couple of last words before we kind of close this um you know any any anything that the viewers should uh should be aware of anything that a lot of sort of like near folks watch this so um you know anything you want to share feel free to do so yeah um check us out our website is the roll up.co um come VI on on Twitter at the rollup CO as well uh really like what what near is doing super bullish and um excited for chain abstraction to be in the Forefront I think the narrative's been picking up significantly so we excited to play our part in that and um yeah guys show some demos get some user generated content get some people trying the apps and seeing how easy it is get a video of your grandma or your mom using a near wallet like let's show people the real usage and let's show people that this is easy let's not just talk about it and make it abstract let's show demos let's show tangible results and I can help do a ugc if you guys need for near for any chain of struction wall and I'm happy to try it out and I think that's what we need War","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:35:41.693Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":0,"text":"nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstract.com","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=0s"},{"start_seconds":9,"text":"for more information you guys are known as Andy and Robbie from rollup uh sometimes you know you you you expect Robie did show up but Andy shows up even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=9s"},{"start_seconds":17,"text":"though the picture is up there so it's it's quite funny um but I have a question for y all so I guess like CH abstraction means different things for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=17s"},{"start_seconds":26,"text":"for everyone I know you guys that like 24 different interviews on CH abstraction like what the hell is this like how do we kind of how do we kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=26s"},{"start_seconds":34,"text":"simplify this for everyone cuz you know when I talk with the bunch of different folks they it means something different but if you can generalize this term and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=34s"},{"start_seconds":42,"text":"be like I want to give a clear explanation for folks that don't know like what what that would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=42s"},{"start_seconds":49,"text":"be yeah so I'm happy to start um I would say that chain abstraction is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=49s"},{"start_seconds":56,"text":"the idea of um using uh blockchain technology without realizing that it's blockchain so basically like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=56s"},{"start_seconds":65,"text":"you know when you go and you you deposit money into your bank account like it's actually your bank is actually like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=65s"},{"start_seconds":72,"text":"decentralized bank maybe it's a savings account right and it's earning interest but you don't realize that it's blockchain or when you're going and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=72s"},{"start_seconds":80,"text":"you're um you know you're trading and you're trading on Robin Hood it's actually like not Robin Hood but it's like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=80s"},{"start_seconds":88,"text":"um you know know maybe it's a decentralized you know Unis swap right but like Unis swap is so sophisticated and advanc and has you know so much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=88s"},{"start_seconds":96,"text":"adoption that people don't realize that it's even blockchain anymore and so yeah like this idea of chain abstraction and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=96s"},{"start_seconds":103,"text":"he's got the map up like this idea here is basically that all of this uh this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=103s"},{"start_seconds":110,"text":"bridging settlement going from chain to chain trading back and forth whether it's an intent or it's a canonical","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=110s"},{"start_seconds":117,"text":"Bridge or it's a message passing protocol um all of that liquidity and and infrastructure is all abstracted away","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=117s"},{"start_seconds":124,"text":"from the end user um it's basically like the technology underneath uh akin to like an Amazon web server or like a you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=124s"},{"start_seconds":133,"text":"know uh like a server cloud compute you know you really don't know like any of the infrastructure that's powering when you use Google meet or Riverside or Zoom","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=133s"},{"start_seconds":142,"text":"right like all of that uses Cloud compute it it has a variety of different infrastructure uh Tech technologies that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=142s"},{"start_seconds":150,"text":"are that are all being used concurrently to to power it um but you don't interact with any of that you hardly even know it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=150s"},{"start_seconds":158,"text":"you just know uh the connection with the brand and their product um and that's all that the experience","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=158s"},{"start_seconds":169,"text":"is yeah I mean just like just to add some color on the map so couple things on chain abration I think a lot of people are confused thinking that it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=169s"},{"start_seconds":176,"text":"just like one team going to do it like just near is going to going to solve all of chain abstraction which is just like not the reality for any of these teams","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=176s"},{"start_seconds":184,"text":"in in in the map I think like n's done a really good job particles done a good job um socket's done a pretty good job as of recent I I know layer zero has","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=184s"},{"start_seconds":193,"text":"been pretty kind of adamant on pushing this so a lot of these teams I think need to kind of collaborate together so like the the goal of this map was to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=193s"},{"start_seconds":201,"text":"basically show that this chain abstraction stack is like inherently modular in its own right or it's kind of like itemized based on different teams","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=201s"},{"start_seconds":210,"text":"that need to collaborate to achieve like this kind of end State and so for us I think that we're thinking about it like chain obstruction is is this spectrum of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=210s"},{"start_seconds":218,"text":"users who want to have different uh uh kind of security or risk preferences where some users may not care at all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=218s"},{"start_seconds":226,"text":"about what chain they're on and some kind of make care more um and I think that what what we're basically seeing is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=226s"},{"start_seconds":232,"text":"like uh this notion of a single wallet interface like a single account which you can ask access all your different L2","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=232s"},{"start_seconds":241,"text":"and uh L1 uh uh chain chain balances on and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=241s"},{"start_seconds":248,"text":"basically be able to use that on any application within any uh chain that that that that wallet is kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=248s"},{"start_seconds":255,"text":"compatible with um and so kind of how I see it going is we have a a wallet which is kind of a connected to a metamask or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=255s"},{"start_seconds":262,"text":"to a rabbi which you kind of import your private key into one balance particle Mir Zion or Labs all these things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=262s"},{"start_seconds":269,"text":"working on that at kind of like the top of the stack there on the permissions and orchestrations and then when you as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=269s"},{"start_seconds":276,"text":"a user go to interact with Unis swap on base you know but you have tokens on um you know on on arbitrum and on near and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=276s"},{"start_seconds":285,"text":"on salana then Inc comes these kind of orderflow sources and auctions and solver networks and solvers who are basically going to uh provide this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=285s"},{"start_seconds":293,"text":"interface for you to be able to go and do these types of swaps and interactions and they're kind of behind theen you have these intent based kind of solver","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=293s"},{"start_seconds":302,"text":"networks Ever Clear clearing um transport Layers hyperlane Union Etc all kind of settling the these these kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=302s"},{"start_seconds":311,"text":"transactions behind um and so like my Grand Vision is like we have these these wallets which you can interact on all these different chains and then that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=311s"},{"start_seconds":319,"text":"on like the front end on like the on like the ux facing side for the users so users should really not have to care where their funds are they should just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=319s"},{"start_seconds":326,"text":"have to care of what apps that they want to use and then behind the scenes you've got these these kind of sequencing networks these shared sequencers these intent based Bridges and these kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=326s"},{"start_seconds":335,"text":"slower more secure transport layers that are facilitating the process so that when I have my my tokens on on one chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=335s"},{"start_seconds":343,"text":"and I want to interact on a chain on another and I click that button on my wallet that has all my balances on it it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=343s"},{"start_seconds":349,"text":"it it like almost like in sub one second or sub 5 seconds and even sub like 500 500 milliseconds happens behind the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=349s"},{"start_seconds":359,"text":"scenes and as a user I just get the result of the transaction Without Really realizing that I'm using solver networks and intense and across and layer zero","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=359s"},{"start_seconds":367,"text":"and so that's kind of like the vision and that's what we wanted to showcase on the map I'm really not sure if that made it easier to understand like I think the question was to kind of make it simpler","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=367s"},{"start_seconds":376,"text":"that may have made it Le less less simple but hope that kind of like helps clarify our vision as well as like how we're seeing so to simplify it pretty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=376s"},{"start_seconds":383,"text":"much there how many fives like if you were to just say hey I'm a chain abstraction project you guys said well like that if you can list those out","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=383s"},{"start_seconds":390,"text":"maybe that's helpful and then we can we can deep dive into kind of some of the sections I know like for example you know there's there's a lot right like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=390s"},{"start_seconds":399,"text":"it's we can't just say there's one project that like does it all I think there's just a just a collaborative effort like modularity as well yeah so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=399s"},{"start_seconds":406,"text":"permissions orderflow solar networks and then obviously settlement so that's kind of the four that five actually that I mean standards and everything but like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=406s"},{"start_seconds":414,"text":"none of the users will care about it I guess like that's more builder oriented I think that's important like users are going to care about different levels of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=414s"},{"start_seconds":422,"text":"granularity and so there are the users that aren't going to care about any of these four they're going to look at this maybe they you know see chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=422s"},{"start_seconds":429,"text":"abstraction as one General Amorphis blob and they don't dive into it maybe they don't even care about chain abstraction at all and they just care about you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=429s"},{"start_seconds":437,"text":"whatever it is that they're buying on on any particular website so I I'm looking at this kind of like as like an optin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=437s"},{"start_seconds":444,"text":"you know letting the user kind of decide what level of granularity they want um and I what like what depth are they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=444s"},{"start_seconds":452,"text":"trying to understand where their money is and where their data is and then giving them the option if they want to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=452s"},{"start_seconds":458,"text":"know more they can um but not showing them that right off the bat just kind of like letting them decide how deep they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=458s"},{"start_seconds":466,"text":"want to take their own knowledge Journey so maybe this is a spicy question but is it a like from a tech standpoint is it a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=466s"},{"start_seconds":475,"text":"mus have or is it a nice to have right there's two differences there so uh what do you guys think after doing this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=475s"},{"start_seconds":483,"text":"research yeah I mean like so I think the must have right now and like what the entire space should be focusing on is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=483s"},{"start_seconds":491,"text":"just the cross chain interaction so for like basically bridging and users on different l2s and like gas extractions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=491s"},{"start_seconds":498,"text":"like I think the The Ordering of like processing transactions clicking sign paying gas trying to figure out what that all is about for like from the user","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=498s"},{"start_seconds":506,"text":"perspective is extremely confusing and I also think that bridging is a huge obstacle so those two for me are like what all chain of instruction providers","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=506s"},{"start_seconds":514,"text":"should be all in on right now cuz frankly it's a little bit confusing and Broad um and I think those are mus haves and then I think a lot of these are like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=514s"},{"start_seconds":522,"text":"some of them are like nice to have like I think like after we can get that then I think like a really nice to have now but eventually a must have is is going","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=522s"},{"start_seconds":531,"text":"to be like a better onramp experience on and off ramp I think that's kind of like a a nice St but I think that the cross chain and gas right now now is like what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=531s"},{"start_seconds":540,"text":"what all teams should be all in on um you know and I think that that these teams should be doing a better job of showing the products as they are now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=540s"},{"start_seconds":549,"text":"showing more demos showing the applications showing what this feels like getting users to actually uh you know download their wallets because a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=549s"},{"start_seconds":557,"text":"lot of teams are like we're here and it's happening um but but like I don't think people feel that it's real on like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=557s"},{"start_seconds":565,"text":"ironically it feels abstract still um so I think that like if team can focus on these demos and showing that like what what these wallets are like and what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=565s"},{"start_seconds":573,"text":"this experience is like and F and and do that just on Cross chain and gas as the mus haves then I think that we can get","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=573s"},{"start_seconds":580,"text":"to like some of the nice to Hales later next year but I think those are the first two obstacles that we have to kind of cross and maybe just to flip that on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=580s"},{"start_seconds":589,"text":"its head looking you know in the three to five year time Horizon what would be your base case scenario for what like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=589s"},{"start_seconds":597,"text":"a consumer or crypto user would be expected to do on their own in order to participate in you know the web 3","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=597s"},{"start_seconds":605,"text":"economy are they doing it through custodian are they going to have their own wallet and they are handling their keys kind of how do you see the the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=605s"},{"start_seconds":612,"text":"average user of crypto Downstream yeah I think like the cryptographic nature of private keys and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=612s"},{"start_seconds":621,"text":"public keys and that kind of like seed phrase concept is going to stay around like obviously in perpetuity I just think that the way that that that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=621s"},{"start_seconds":629,"text":"they'll be stored will be changed so I think there's there's probably room for some design based on like multi-party computation where the users can own like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=629s"},{"start_seconds":638,"text":"bits and parts of their keys but like they can be stored in other areas or it can be done in in some sort of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=638s"},{"start_seconds":645,"text":"social login or social recovery manner um so so I think that we'll see like that Improvement happen I think like some users will still opt in to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=645s"},{"start_seconds":654,"text":"just write their seed phrase down or um you know do it in that way but then I think generally like I think the main hurdle is just going to be getting an a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=654s"},{"start_seconds":662,"text":"wallet off the App Store I do think a lot of these wallets are eventually going to be on the App Store as well for Apple and Google um and then I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=662s"},{"start_seconds":670,"text":"it's like just going to be the the the hurdle is going to be just like it is when you're going to send uh funds to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=670s"},{"start_seconds":677,"text":"Schwab to to invest in stocks or Robin Hood I think it's just going to be sending your money from your bank account to your crypto wallet somehow","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=677s"},{"start_seconds":685,"text":"via some on-ramp um and then I expect once they get there that the experience will be extremely","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=685s"},{"start_seconds":692,"text":"similar to that of like using a you know a venmo or using like a application as we know it today um but I think that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=692s"},{"start_seconds":700,"text":"big like the the big hurdle is going to be the seed phrase and kind of like this like the wallet security which is kind of where your custodian asmic comes in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=700s"},{"start_seconds":708,"text":"and then I also think that like that on-ramp thing that I was getting to after we kind of solve this cross chaining gas abstractions I think is going to be the the hurdle for people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=708s"},{"start_seconds":717,"text":"but I think that's what they'd be expecting I tend to agree on especially the App Store thing like uh I saw they announced Apple announced today that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=717s"},{"start_seconds":726,"text":"they're going to open up their payment chip and so circle is going to integrate that and have more native usdc payments","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=726s"},{"start_seconds":734,"text":"um I think probably just tap to pay right when we're at like literally buying coffee with crypto could become a reality where you know that was a that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=734s"},{"start_seconds":741,"text":"was a goal for a long time um so yeah I think that's happening now time scale three to five years","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=741s"},{"start_seconds":749,"text":"yeah I think like just taking that to to to another level which would be like more fungibility between dollars and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=749s"},{"start_seconds":756,"text":"stable coins I think could become a lot easier um more n like mobile first uh defi mobile first crypto uh in terms of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=756s"},{"start_seconds":765,"text":"Wallets on the App Store definitely definitely agreed there and then yeah like I I really don't anticipate uh consumers changing their behavior too","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=765s"},{"start_seconds":773,"text":"much like kind of Alton's question about like what you know what are they expected to do is in a must have or or or nice to have like I tend to think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=773s"},{"start_seconds":783,"text":"even on you know that time scale of like 3 to five years people are just going to buy stuff on Amazon and I think it's pretty simple I think it's going to be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=783s"},{"start_seconds":791,"text":"like connect or sign in with ethereum I think once we have Smart accounts there's going to be like kind of the transition of wallets and integrating","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=791s"},{"start_seconds":799,"text":"into like apple but then there's also going to be upgrades to the etherum contracts and the ethereum wallet infrastructure maybe that takes into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=799s"},{"start_seconds":807,"text":"account NPC but like upgrading the ethereum technology for account abstraction in smart accounts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=807s"},{"start_seconds":814,"text":"such that we have social recovery and we can just sign in with ethereum like we have signed in with Google and sign in with apple then you know I just connect","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=814s"},{"start_seconds":822,"text":"my ethereum account to Amazon and I have all of my crypto on hand so that I can just use it to buy stuff on Amazon","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=822s"},{"start_seconds":829,"text":"people still just buy stuff on Amazon they don't really know the difference but they're just connecting a different account that they use to pay for stuff and then all of that data is integrated","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=829s"},{"start_seconds":838,"text":"into the entire on chain economy we can use chain abstraction to power a lot of that you know maybe your wherever your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=838s"},{"start_seconds":844,"text":"usdc is right on optimism or arbitrum it gets routed from you know Amazon becomes an orderflow Source your your stable","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=844s"},{"start_seconds":853,"text":"coins get orchestrated from whatever Network it's on to to wherever Amazon accepts accepts payment or if Amazon doesn't even want to accept crypto you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=853s"},{"start_seconds":862,"text":"know they use one of these offramp uh sources like Circle to to offramp the crypto and then Amazon just gets Fiat","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=862s"},{"start_seconds":869,"text":"don't even know that they're accepting crypto yeah I have a point here so like all the ones we see here are pretty much","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=869s"},{"start_seconds":877,"text":"decentralized right and and I guess Robbie you mentioned you know usdc I got quite excited about the news just because you know I was thinking about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=877s"},{"start_seconds":885,"text":"like the what developers can do but circle is centralized so I guess like are we are we going to see I mean chain abstraction is a thing that already exists but exchanges if you think about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=885s"},{"start_seconds":893,"text":"it right like you go to binance you can do whatever you like but are we going in these two worlds and are these like separate worlds or they they Collide","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=893s"},{"start_seconds":901,"text":"like what do what do you guys think and not all of the projects on this map are decentralized like winter mute the solver is totally centralized yeah even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=901s"},{"start_seconds":910,"text":"Unis swap X is like they're pretty centralized like they're just passing their order flow and and Suave I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=910s"},{"start_seconds":918,"text":"is on here too and me boost is another form of private order flow like it's like privacy and and decentralization is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=918s"},{"start_seconds":927,"text":"like used as a tool but then there's all kind like people are using these private order flow sources as a way to avoid meev and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=927s"},{"start_seconds":936,"text":"like would you rather you know have like more privacy less decentralization or would you rather get meevd and there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=936s"},{"start_seconds":944,"text":"trade-offs to both I think I I think people only care about decentralization when it comes to security um not so much when it comes to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=944s"},{"start_seconds":952,"text":"like liquidity and some other things and so we're going to see like some pretty takes it's not I I used to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=952s"},{"start_seconds":961,"text":"be a decentralization maxi and I think I've gotten a little bit more uh Center on that scale um but yeah I tend of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=961s"},{"start_seconds":969,"text":"think like solvers and intense Centric approaches a lot of these are offchain actors and then they cryptographically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=969s"},{"start_seconds":976,"text":"and verifiably prove uh the outcome on chain and I think we're going to start to see a lot more of that where you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=976s"},{"start_seconds":984,"text":"a lot of action happens offchain but then it's proven and settled on chain and then that's a nice compromise where we still get a lot of onchain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=984s"},{"start_seconds":993,"text":"verifiability but it's not maximally decentralized not everything is on chain makes sense well thanks for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=993s"},{"start_seconds":1002,"text":"putting this through I think this is helpful for everyone that you know to come in and see yeah I'm just curious Alon what do you guys like when you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1002s"},{"start_seconds":1010,"text":"first look at this like what is this like other than being like what the hell like there's way too many teams like what do you guys think like what's your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1010s"},{"start_seconds":1018,"text":"like on the design or like just like from this like chain abstraction ecosystem like how are you guys thinking about this with regards to how this map","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1018s"},{"start_seconds":1025,"text":"looks like does it make sense does is is there a category that you think is like more important or more developed than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1025s"},{"start_seconds":1033,"text":"others um yeah I mean like from from my sense I mean like so a can abstraction has been around for a while I guess like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1033s"},{"start_seconds":1041,"text":"people understand that wall abstraction like people started to get at orchestration like I I know near does it like I used to be at near myself","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1041s"},{"start_seconds":1049,"text":"and we still part of the new ecosystem uh you know like I I don't get it as an normal user but I think crypto Builders will get it like the the middle stack I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1049s"},{"start_seconds":1057,"text":"think like a lot of folks like you 50% like what is a solver Network what is a solver what do orderflow right like you need to be a bit of an advanced user but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1057s"},{"start_seconds":1066,"text":"I think like the top maybe the the the way you structured is like settlement infra I think people get what settlement is at this point I mean there's still debate around whether settlement is real","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1066s"},{"start_seconds":1075,"text":"or not I mean you know you talk about this but there's certain things like makes sense to me and if somebody wants to learn more I mean this is a starting","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1075s"},{"start_seconds":1083,"text":"point I'm like oh what is an order flow like oh let me just learn about that and then what is suave I can go learn about that what is a so it's it's a good point like I that was one of the things I've","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1083s"},{"start_seconds":1091,"text":"when I was actually publicly said like is there a map that I can I can go and find stuff I think it's a good sort of a starting point for folks to study right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1091s"},{"start_seconds":1099,"text":"and that's that's what people crypto media should do which which kind of appreciate you guys for doing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1099s"},{"start_seconds":1106,"text":"that yeah I like it I think it's it's definitely uh a comprehensive landscape what I usually defer back to is uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1106s"},{"start_seconds":1114,"text":"elephant in the room tends to be the unit economics and the kind of understanding of how does how does the economics actually work under the hood","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1114s"},{"start_seconds":1123,"text":"especially when you're dealing with different chains that have different uh you know fee structures and also uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1123s"},{"start_seconds":1129,"text":"block times uh Etc so yeah I I I think this is a good starting point but I think i' I I would bet if you could take","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1129s"},{"start_seconds":1139,"text":"this and like go deep on it and look at the intricacies of how each of these solutions for ports to work scale it up and say let's imagine a million users on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1139s"},{"start_seconds":1147,"text":"each one what happens with the unit economics it' probably reveal a lot more about what's actually real versus what's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1147s"},{"start_seconds":1154,"text":"fake yeah we we did have an article that went along with this and we did a Twitter space where people got in and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1154s"},{"start_seconds":1161,"text":"they discussed it Twitter space got a little spicy um and yeah the the entire explanation of how we how we kind of like contextualized the categories our","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1161s"},{"start_seconds":1170,"text":"rationale for how these categories work together um is all in this article so I I encourage people to check this out on the roll","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1170s"},{"start_seconds":1177,"text":"up.co um and yeah Michael I think yeah like if you guys put in the show notes that would be that would be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1177s"},{"start_seconds":1185,"text":"great so people can check it out yeah I was say I like the idea of the economics and like it's funny because all of these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1185s"},{"start_seconds":1193,"text":"team like all these categories and these teams are going to have totally custom implementations of how they work together and they and they share value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1193s"},{"start_seconds":1200,"text":"but I think a general rule of thumb uh I'm going to get toasted for saying this because it is so much more nuanced but like at a very high level it's all","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1200s"},{"start_seconds":1209,"text":"auctions like all of these teams are just bidding like up the and that's one of the things I like about the maps how we structured is like settlement is like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1209s"},{"start_seconds":1217,"text":"the base layer and then it goes up the stack as far as like uh like more consumer facing and so you can kind of think about like the settlement agencies","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1217s"},{"start_seconds":1224,"text":"are like bidding for for uh well it go go down the stack I guess like the solvers and the solver networks are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1224s"},{"start_seconds":1231,"text":"bidding for order flow and then they have to get the proposers bid for the blocks um so you kind of just have like these different auction mechanisms where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1231s"},{"start_seconds":1240,"text":"everyone just bids for the for the right to provide their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1240s"},{"start_seconds":1247,"text":"service yeah so would you say that's the I guess if you if a builder comes in today and wants to build something here","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1247s"},{"start_seconds":1255,"text":"like is that is that the one that people should focus on or you know what are you guys opinioned there or you just don't care like hey just come in and contribute to the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1255s"},{"start_seconds":1263,"text":"ecosystem I mean I tend to think like apps are I I'm still biased towards apps like just because I think that's sexier","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1263s"},{"start_seconds":1272,"text":"like that's what I want to use you know like there is plenty of infrastructure I think there could be more infrastructure to make it faster and cheaper but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1272s"},{"start_seconds":1279,"text":"ultimately like I think all of us here and probably the listeners of this are like Advanced enough to know how to use the thing um and so if I'm talking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1279s"},{"start_seconds":1288,"text":"selfishly like yeah I want I want more apps you know that are fun to use and actually there's a guy I just came across his account yesterday is uh Ox","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1288s"},{"start_seconds":1297,"text":"designer who posted like this really long thread of like some super cool user interfaces of stuff um and he gave me a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1297s"},{"start_seconds":1306,"text":"ton of ideas like even the Amazon thing I I gotta like kind of shout him out for for that because that really puts it into perspective of how you know that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1306s"},{"start_seconds":1314,"text":"what I think normal users and advanced users could could con Verge to just using that on a more daily basis yes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1314s"},{"start_seconds":1322,"text":"this is the thread some of this stuff is so cool and I can just picture like signing in with ethereum and then you get access to like you know that is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1322s"},{"start_seconds":1331,"text":"expensive but it's okay tickets yeah right can afford that 3kk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1331s"},{"start_seconds":1339,"text":"USD some of these things are so dope like the fast checkout the thing on Amazon the integrated","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1339s"},{"start_seconds":1346,"text":"search even the data the there's one on here I think it's this one the browsing data there's some projects that like Camp network is going to start to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1346s"},{"start_seconds":1355,"text":"let people let advertisers bid on your data I believe um is how it's going to look in like kind of a a futuristic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1355s"},{"start_seconds":1363,"text":"state so like imagine like you know getting paid for your data I mean didn't didn't this is all like so applicable to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1363s"},{"start_seconds":1370,"text":"the chain abstraction conversation right now all of this stuff like when people ask like what's the vision it's like it's not necessarily like Adam Cochran's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1370s"},{"start_seconds":1379,"text":"uh prediction success on X but it's like it's like all these little Integrations of like what crypto can do and what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1379s"},{"start_seconds":1386,"text":"blockchains are are capable of but just like plugging them into so maybe when we're thinking about like we need more apps maybe we just need to like plug in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1386s"},{"start_seconds":1393,"text":"the current Tech that we have into already popular stuff rather than like build completely new things with social","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1393s"},{"start_seconds":1400,"text":"coordination like I I wish it was an engineering problem and you could just throw the research gigar brains at it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1400s"},{"start_seconds":1407,"text":"but to integrate something into Amazon's front end like maybe like I don't know if bezos's got a sign off on it but like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1407s"},{"start_seconds":1414,"text":"someone you know deep in Amazon has to like be the decision maker but and into Walmart you know all this is super super","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1414s"},{"start_seconds":1422,"text":"cool and buy with ethereum or signing with ethereum I I think that's going to be a game Cher for how we connect these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1422s"},{"start_seconds":1429,"text":"things and then chain abstraction Powers all of that using all the infrastructure providers on the map it says old it says","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1429s"},{"start_seconds":1437,"text":"Trump and Biden it's kind of funny that's good thanks for sharing that guys I mean the ZX","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1437s"},{"start_seconds":1444,"text":"designer has been doing an amazing job uh in terms of like if you guys can actually like pick ping him or her I don't know the but essentially just say","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1444s"},{"start_seconds":1453,"text":"hey build us some chain abstracted stuff I think it would be it'd be quite cool to use that word there um awesome so I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1453s"},{"start_seconds":1460,"text":"guess like maybe tell me more about you know you guys talk a lot about like the l2s modular chains and and sort of ZK","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1460s"},{"start_seconds":1467,"text":"rollups like maybe we we cover this whole chain abstraction stuff but like how did these all kind of because I know I've seen Andy kind of start talking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1467s"},{"start_seconds":1475,"text":"about these things how do these kind of intersect and and Collide like you guys probably have some thoughts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1475s"},{"start_seconds":1483,"text":"there definitely yeah so I don't know if your if your audience has um heard of the modular mullet but I think it now is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1483s"},{"start_seconds":1491,"text":"is a great time to kind of showcase what this means for for your your audience so the idea of kind of like how these how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1491s"},{"start_seconds":1500,"text":"these Technologies are going to interact from our View kind of inspired by a lot of these uh um kind of modular players","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1500s"},{"start_seconds":1508,"text":"and some Nick from Celestia and some other teams in in Everclear and things is we got this idea of like so I was","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1508s"},{"start_seconds":1516,"text":"kind of talking about okay so we're going to have chain abstracted ux on the front end and on the back end it's going to be powered uh like underneath by","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1516s"},{"start_seconds":1525,"text":"these really fast intent-based uh inoperability protocols or some sort of block building and shared sequencing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1525s"},{"start_seconds":1532,"text":"networks or these kind of Transport layers like hyperlane like Union like layer zero so that's kind of like how I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1532s"},{"start_seconds":1538,"text":"see the actual ux happening on the on the actual kind of uh user facing and what's going to be powering it but like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1538s"},{"start_seconds":1546,"text":"what are users going to be doing they're going to be interacting with modular blockchains as applications as app","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1546s"},{"start_seconds":1553,"text":"chains or as apps on rollups in the future and that's where the demand and for these chain abstraction and interrupt Solutions is going to come","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1553s"},{"start_seconds":1561,"text":"from so how do I see these kind of playing together I it it comes to this kind of meme of this modular mullet um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1561s"},{"start_seconds":1568,"text":"where basically what what we end up with is we have this this kind of better ux and this kind of uh interoperability power chain abstracted ux but on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1568s"},{"start_seconds":1577,"text":"back end you've got users wanting to access apps that are having their own Sovereign block space operating as app chains or applications on an L2 um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1577s"},{"start_seconds":1586,"text":"so yeah I mean that's kind of how I'm seeing you have to you have you have something yeah makes sense you have something to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1586s"},{"start_seconds":1594,"text":"add Robbie or is it the probably follow the same kind of logic no yeah I mean I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1594s"},{"start_seconds":1601,"text":"I prescribed to that as well like um yeah I think um we're going to continue to see this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1601s"},{"start_seconds":1610,"text":"like uh proliferation of like more apps more infrastructure um it is and and more ch","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1610s"},{"start_seconds":1618,"text":"and we have to like really think about like all right what what time scale are we on cuz like all of the stuff we saw on Ox designer all of that is like three","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1618s"},{"start_seconds":1627,"text":"to five years at least like to get the social coordination and incentives right to like Implement into like these already large scale existing businesses","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1627s"},{"start_seconds":1635,"text":"Amazon Walmart Etc on on a more like here and now it is very much modular mullet like this is the modular mullet","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1635s"},{"start_seconds":1644,"text":"era um chain abstract front end like PE real people the users that are using stuff on chain are using these front ends and they're using chain abstraction","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1644s"},{"start_seconds":1653,"text":"in the front end and modularity is powering it underneath I kind of tend to think like and if we had those like front and back like Shan abstration is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1653s"},{"start_seconds":1661,"text":"going to move further to the back as we go like down the road and then it'll be more of like the brands that are already","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1661s"},{"start_seconds":1669,"text":"consumer facing Amazon like those are going to continue to be the front and they will they will again be the front","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1669s"},{"start_seconds":1676,"text":"of the mullet but we'll CH will start to have modularity in the back chain abstraction in the middle and then like these existing front ends and large","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1676s"},{"start_seconds":1684,"text":"businesses in the front um in the long run yeah or just like good or just like blockchains and l2s that actually do a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1684s"},{"start_seconds":1692,"text":"good job of like throwing top of funnel like like what like what Luc was trying to do with abstract chain like that as an example Bas has done a good job","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1692s"},{"start_seconds":1701,"text":"salana has even done a great job as as well right like those those chains that do a good job at at top of funnel will like will will really dominate on that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1701s"},{"start_seconds":1709,"text":"front and and I just want to like un unpack a little bit why this is happening like why do we even need transction and why are we even talking about this like we're like big modular","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1709s"},{"start_seconds":1718,"text":"Bulls we've Angel invested in a ton of modular projects we work with a ton of the projects we agree with the thesis but it's un it's it's undeniable that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1718s"},{"start_seconds":1727,"text":"this this fragmentation of ethereum's rollups and of these all these different chains is an unavoidable consequence of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1727s"},{"start_seconds":1735,"text":"the modular thesis of the idea of expanding block of expanding block space of growing Sovereign sequencing of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1735s"},{"start_seconds":1743,"text":"having opch app chains of having kind of this expansion off of this Noisy Neighbor problem it's like the you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1743s"},{"start_seconds":1752,"text":"achieve something and then you kind of create a bigger larger problem and I think that we have to kind of address that that that is the biggest BET right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1752s"},{"start_seconds":1760,"text":"now of the modro thesis like the BET of the maio thesis is that we are going to be able to figure out how we can put","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1760s"},{"start_seconds":1768,"text":"these apps and these chains together in a chain abstracted way powered by interoperability Solutions underneath","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1768s"},{"start_seconds":1775,"text":"and that we're going to be able to do it quickly and do it well such that we can compete with salana apto Su SE Avalanche","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1775s"},{"start_seconds":1783,"text":"and these kind of larger l1s which honestly I think are going to get all Blended together anyways if train","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1783s"},{"start_seconds":1789,"text":"abstraction happens the the the like the the end result if we can do that is almost like unfathomable because it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1789s"},{"start_seconds":1798,"text":"like we can get this ecosystem of all these different chains and all these apps and like all seamlessly interoperate we can outscale any L1 even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1798s"},{"start_seconds":1807,"text":"if they just centralized to the max we can still theoretically outscale them as and definitely if we're trying to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1807s"},{"start_seconds":1813,"text":"compete on kind of like censorship resistance and kind of the risk here is that we can't figure this fragmentation problem out and then it's too difficult","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1813s"},{"start_seconds":1822,"text":"to solve and so I just wanted to add that kind of perspective as to why we're even having this conversation why chain exraction is really growing and why","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1822s"},{"start_seconds":1829,"text":"interoperability and intense are really growing in terms of Mind share it's because this problem which is the problem of the Mau thesis is the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1829s"},{"start_seconds":1837,"text":"fragmentation of chains liquidity and users the problem that the modu thesis is solving is the congestion of etherum L1 of other l1s of noisy neighbors and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1837s"},{"start_seconds":1846,"text":"of application Builders not being able to uh basically control their own transaction ordering their own sequencing earn me and kind of have a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1846s"},{"start_seconds":1854,"text":"customizable execution environment so we solved that but we're kind of faced here and so funnily enough we asked Jill from espresso on the podcast that just went","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1854s"},{"start_seconds":1862,"text":"out today what is going to be the solution or what's going to be the problem that we solve next after we put these together and um this is where I I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1862s"},{"start_seconds":1870,"text":"I got to the nice to have she said on ramping she said this on and off ramp experience is going to be the next kind of like big hurdle that the space is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1870s"},{"start_seconds":1877,"text":"going to have to solve so kind of all over the place there but I wanted to kind of just tie that together with what Rob was saying with regards to the top of funnel the mullet and kind of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1877s"},{"start_seconds":1886,"text":"problem space that we're even having this podcast about as we are now yeah man definitely I'm I'm super excited about that for sure yeah yeah I I mean I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1886s"},{"start_seconds":1895,"text":"I think that's spot on like this this the congestion in ethereum gas fees gave birth to modularity and you know we saw all l1s","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1895s"},{"start_seconds":1904,"text":"we saw l2s we saw side chains all of that is born out of this congestion on on ethereum and then modularity gave birth to chain abstraction because we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1904s"},{"start_seconds":1913,"text":"wanted we wanted modular we wanted more networks we wanted app chains and rollups but then once you have all of these things like you lose out on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1913s"},{"start_seconds":1920,"text":"unification and the and the easy user experience when everything was just an app on ethereum and so now we need to connect it all we need to abstract it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1920s"},{"start_seconds":1928,"text":"all and that's where we get chain abstraction and and ultimately this will come full circle like I believe in in what Jill is saying what Andy's saying","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1928s"},{"start_seconds":1935,"text":"with on on and off ramps like I want to see the day where we get orchestration amongst Fiat and onchain services and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1935s"},{"start_seconds":1943,"text":"have an intent to like submit something and then my my transaction gets fronted on my destination Fiat bank and then it the the solver gets repaid whether","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1943s"},{"start_seconds":1952,"text":"that's onchain or they get they get repaid in Fiat and then we don't have is you know we don't have onchain to to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1952s"},{"start_seconds":1959,"text":"Fiat take three to five business days right it happens seamlessly like a venmo or or stable coin transaction like even","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1959s"},{"start_seconds":1967,"text":"bank to bank like this can all be innovated and I think it will be innovated with blockchain with solvers with intense Centric models like I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1967s"},{"start_seconds":1975,"text":"that'll that'll continue to innovate blockchain and then blockchain will just eat the existing traditional Financial","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1975s"},{"start_seconds":1982,"text":"World blockchain eats trfy that's that's a good uh that's a good that's a good headline um cool guys I mean we talked","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1982s"},{"start_seconds":1990,"text":"about a bunch of stuff right we we did talk about chain abstraction uh obviously we're all modular Bulls I'm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1990s"},{"start_seconds":1996,"text":"I'm there too um but how do we like are there other things that you guys are seeing that people are excited about as a kind of like a I would say you're not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=1996s"},{"start_seconds":2005,"text":"a media company but I guess like seeing seeing the space from you know covering all these other projects we're like hey like you know this is we talked about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2005s"},{"start_seconds":2013,"text":"apps like what's exciting to you guys for the next sort of one to two years and maybe five years yeah I just wanted to say real","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2013s"},{"start_seconds":2022,"text":"quick as well that like one of the greatest things about crypto is the composability of crypto and like the way that like these like money Legos can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2022s"},{"start_seconds":2029,"text":"interoperate with each other and like we can kind of Stack different Primitives on top of each other whether it be chains themselves parts of chains or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2029s"},{"start_seconds":2037,"text":"applications and so like figuring out how to bring that and blend that all back together for this ma space is like the biggest that's like the biggest","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2037s"},{"start_seconds":2044,"text":"Northstar and I think that like that's like the that's one of the the strongest bull cases for crypto as a technology in blockchain I think that's what that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2044s"},{"start_seconds":2053,"text":"Designer guy was kind of hitting on in that thread as well so just wanted to kind of make make that point as well with regards to like what we're seeing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2053s"},{"start_seconds":2062,"text":"uh the shared security area is getting extremely extremely interesting so I layers symbiotic nectar Network um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2062s"},{"start_seconds":2071,"text":"I'm missing one who are doing a lot of work in reaking yeah Carrick um there that whole Space is getting very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2071s"},{"start_seconds":2078,"text":"interesting the igir AVS ecosystem is exploding uh nuff's there you guys are doing some some some great work there um the rup is going to do a big series","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2078s"},{"start_seconds":2087,"text":"about this coming up soon that's some Alpha so that in particular is very interesting to us because like slashing is going live I lay is going to be slashing igen tokens people are like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2087s"},{"start_seconds":2095,"text":"what this isn't very secure so they're probably going to have they're probably going to end up doing eth and then eventually like Bitcoin or other assets","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2095s"},{"start_seconds":2101,"text":"as well Soul Etc perhaps near is doing some cool reaking stuff then you have symbiotic doing their own kind of mix on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2101s"},{"start_seconds":2108,"text":"it you've got nectar doing DVT with reaking and then you've got a plethora of avss who are supporting all of these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2108s"},{"start_seconds":2116,"text":"different networks and relying on them for security and slashing is going live very soon so it feels like this idea of like this whole ecosystem is about to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2116s"},{"start_seconds":2124,"text":"get like turned on and like we're about to kind of see like how real this is and like how how much of a blowup risk there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2124s"},{"start_seconds":2131,"text":"is and like what's going to go wrong what's going to go right uh we're going to see which LRT providers are the best","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2131s"},{"start_seconds":2138,"text":"at selecting their uh delegations we're going to see which node operators are competent enough to delegate stake","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2138s"},{"start_seconds":2147,"text":"properly and not get wrecked we're going to see which which which projects are are smart enough to not go directly to node operators and instead go to lrts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2147s"},{"start_seconds":2156,"text":"with quants to to to do kind of their delegations we're going to see the the wars of symbiotic and igen layer between","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2156s"},{"start_seconds":2163,"text":"who's going to give the best yields and rewards and tokens and support and so I think this whole Space is like going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2163s"},{"start_seconds":2171,"text":"be a really really fun thing to be a part of the next like six months um obviously like the ma space and then also like the AI stuff but I don't have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2171s"},{"start_seconds":2179,"text":"too much insight into the AI so so much but definitely going to start paying more attention to this whole like abs and shared security yeah it's quite","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2179s"},{"start_seconds":2186,"text":"interesting like it's a game right it's a game between bunch of different actors so that's why I got super interested in this when I was like last year was like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2186s"},{"start_seconds":2194,"text":"oh wow actually you know like I did a whole maybe like small thread because terum was talking about it was like you know like how much security does an ads","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2194s"},{"start_seconds":2202,"text":"need so like who needs to be smart there right so lrts and Walts need to be super smart because they need to be switching back and forth they're the Risk Managers","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2202s"},{"start_seconds":2211,"text":"of the whole Space right so it's quite interesting I'm excited about that how about you Robbie same I mean I think that is definitely it over the next six months","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2211s"},{"start_seconds":2219,"text":"like I don't have a ton to add on that time frame I I do think Ian ler is going to I think they're going to turn on slashing I think they're going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2219s"},{"start_seconds":2226,"text":"incorporate Bitcoin and soul into some of those like uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2226s"},{"start_seconds":2239,"text":"restablecer rollups AI I I am still excited about AI I think it it you know it gets so much hype but I I do think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2239s"},{"start_seconds":2247,"text":"it's going to start to make an impact on uh more industries that have not been impacted by technology in quite a long","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2247s"},{"start_seconds":2254,"text":"time um and I think it's really really important to make sure that it stays open source and so I think that will continue to proliferate um generally I'm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2254s"},{"start_seconds":2263,"text":"excited for like uh this new era of blockchain where yes I think it'll continue to eat traditional Finance it is a game there's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2263s"},{"start_seconds":2271,"text":"incentives and uh and that's where defi like most if not all of it is still defi um but I think like we're starting to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2271s"},{"start_seconds":2280,"text":"see uh blockchain take on cloud compute and like we have verifiable compute that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2280s"},{"start_seconds":2288,"text":"igen layer enables um and and all these reaking providers enable um and I think blockchain verifiable compute will start","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2288s"},{"start_seconds":2295,"text":"to take on cloud compute as the latency comes down and the costs come down uh I'm pretty excited for the day that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2295s"},{"start_seconds":2301,"text":"verifiable compute uh becomes uh on the scale of cloud compute and then we have like these large scale businesses start","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2301s"},{"start_seconds":2309,"text":"to question you know why am I paying this much to Amazon AWS or uh or Google CL cloud or Microsoft Azure you know why","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2309s"},{"start_seconds":2317,"text":"am I not using an open source verifiable blockchain if it is in fact cheaper and faster and it's more secure and it's verifiable like then the incentives","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2317s"},{"start_seconds":2326,"text":"become such that it just makes sense to migrate uh onto the thing that provides a better service and so I think that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2326s"},{"start_seconds":2333,"text":"could uh that could bring the next wave of users in a sense it could bring this next wave of transactions uh when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2333s"},{"start_seconds":2341,"text":"blockchains are at that level of throughput yeah I would agree awesome guys well um what else you guys want to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2341s"},{"start_seconds":2349,"text":"share like is this something coming in roll up is because you guys did a Rebrand I guess uh but is there more I guess you guys started talking about bit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2349s"},{"start_seconds":2357,"text":"more abss and the kind of this cool space but what's for the future for you guys like what's the what's the vision uh coming into because it's we talked about a lot of Shan abstraction but I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2357s"},{"start_seconds":2365,"text":"kind of what talk about you guys what's how the how the future looks like yeah I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2365s"},{"start_seconds":2372,"text":"um I think we're hitting a Groove like I think the rollup is in a spot where we're starting to uh to have really fun and Innovative","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2372s"},{"start_seconds":2381,"text":"conversations um we're we're you know again like having a lot more of these open workshops where there's ideas like you know we have all these live streams","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2381s"},{"start_seconds":2389,"text":"and panels a lot of those are one-on-one conversations or like general just round taes but I like when I like when the pen hits the paper the fingers start typing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2389s"},{"start_seconds":2398,"text":"and the code starts like really cranking and and we start running into you know how can these projects work together you know how how can teams collaborate and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2398s"},{"start_seconds":2406,"text":"and if we're um kind of a shelling point for those conversations that's that's when I really start to see value","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2406s"},{"start_seconds":2414,"text":"um there's tons of stuff we got into the pipeline if Annie wants to share any of that I'll I'll let him SP we got a i lers content series and a share security","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2414s"},{"start_seconds":2423,"text":"content series coming out October going to 204 token 2049 September so catch you guys there um we got","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2423s"},{"start_seconds":2433,"text":"uh uh we'll be announcing the uh VM Wars podcast under the in a few weeks so that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2433s"},{"start_seconds":2441,"text":"might be some Alpha depends cut cut before that if that doesn't work yeah so that was part I wasn't","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2441s"},{"start_seconds":2450,"text":"sure hit that part John and then can I expand the rollup from there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2450s"},{"start_seconds":2458,"text":"um and yeah going to scale the team a bit gonna um uh kind of bring on one more person we have a couple you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2458s"},{"start_seconds":2466,"text":"eight or nine peeps now team's going well yeah just got a the new sight the new look just really trying to keep the quality up keep the keep the uh brand","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2466s"},{"start_seconds":2475,"text":"content really high and just grow the audience grow the grow the numbers um and just keep kind of pushing and taking advantage of the attention that the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2475s"},{"start_seconds":2483,"text":"rollup has right now that crypto has for the coming year 18 months or so um and then kind of more longer term it's going to end up I think end up transitioning","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2483s"},{"start_seconds":2492,"text":"into more of like a more of like a consultancy and just kind of less content and less kind of uh in the trenches uh and more like uh higher","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2492s"},{"start_seconds":2501,"text":"level work and potentially spinning out some sort of like uh research type of of of arm or something to to that extent","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2501s"},{"start_seconds":2510,"text":"probably going to do like a next iteration of our site as well um so this is like V1 we want to have like some sort of like members lounge or like some","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2510s"},{"start_seconds":2517,"text":"sort of like research uh kind of arm that that we can either put behind a pay wall or figure out a way to kind of get people to buy into that or at least want","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2517s"},{"start_seconds":2526,"text":"to read it um and then yeah man I think just like keep on keeping on what do you guys want to see like do you want to see like the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2526s"},{"start_seconds":2535,"text":"rollup become like a hub of like you know you can do swaps there you can do deposits or earn yield or like just continue to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2535s"},{"start_seconds":2542,"text":"learn more research more like you know findings on on like we found are successful for projects what what would you guys want","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2542s"},{"start_seconds":2551,"text":"to see like as you're listening to a podcast you know like like what kind of actions do you want to take yeah I mean like honestly think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2551s"},{"start_seconds":2561,"text":"like we need people that do content in crypto and bring those voices so I think you guys been doing a good job there um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2561s"},{"start_seconds":2569,"text":"building a product I mean you guys will do well probably in the because you have a distribution if you do a product people will use the product like bankless guys did it you know like and I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2569s"},{"start_seconds":2577,"text":"think some folks are using the products I I think as the as the brand grows I think you guys have a shot to do like both um maybe launch a roll up or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2577s"},{"start_seconds":2585,"text":"something and be kind of funny rollup rollup uh or like uh um but or you know something like that eventually could could make sense if you ask me and or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2585s"},{"start_seconds":2594,"text":"like maybe inperson meetups like I don't know like B Works have been doing some some great job there you know you guys can full like specific like to to roll","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2594s"},{"start_seconds":2603,"text":"up and if you guys going to like cuz this this Market is got to grow I think in my opinion and the more you kind of hone in there I think the guys will the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2603s"},{"start_seconds":2611,"text":"guys will continue to do better I think that if you stay on the on the education vein the biggest","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2611s"},{"start_seconds":2618,"text":"blocker right now and this includes among VCS among other builders and among people and Foundations is an inadequate","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2618s"},{"start_seconds":2627,"text":"understanding of how these architectures work so a lot of times you know people who grew up in crypto in the eth era","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2627s"},{"start_seconds":2635,"text":"never really learned well the architecture of near or Solana really in terms of how it handles certain problems","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2635s"},{"start_seconds":2642,"text":"or certain tradeoffs same thing now happening with the reaking architecture and uh you know what nuffle is doing as like kind of a a middle middle layer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2642s"},{"start_seconds":2651,"text":"unification layer if you will it's it's such a toll I think for most people to keep up with with all the changes but","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2651s"},{"start_seconds":2660,"text":"these changes are going to bring massive opportunities for new companies new Investments Etc and I think the the kind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2660s"},{"start_seconds":2667,"text":"of effort that your average investor or Builder has to do to even like understand the the game is still really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2667s"},{"start_seconds":2675,"text":"far from where it should be right so most people at least in my experience build or or engage with a certain stack","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2675s"},{"start_seconds":2682,"text":"because their friends did or because someone gave them money to do that not because it was the best stack for what they were interested in doing or you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2682s"},{"start_seconds":2690,"text":"know uh it served their use case optimally and I I I think there's a killer opportunity to go hard hard on Allon you guys actually do some great","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2690s"},{"start_seconds":2699,"text":"diagrams do go do go hard on like the architecture diagrams in your in the in the match made in heaven the nff blog","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2699s"},{"start_seconds":2707,"text":"you guys do like great just pictures of how how the product is going to work and kind of how that unravels I think if you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2707s"},{"start_seconds":2715,"text":"guys could like Corner that market and be like hey we can simplify chain abstraction and you know all that complexity that there's there's real","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2715s"},{"start_seconds":2723,"text":"value there yeah yeah n n has great people so we're we're kind of happy there just so as roll up so well nice to have you guys maybe a couple of last","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2723s"},{"start_seconds":2731,"text":"words before we kind of close this um you know any any anything that the viewers should uh should be aware of anything that a lot of sort of like near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2731s"},{"start_seconds":2739,"text":"folks watch this so um you know anything you want to share feel free to do so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2739s"},{"start_seconds":2746,"text":"yeah um check us out our website is the roll up.co um come VI on on Twitter at the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2746s"},{"start_seconds":2754,"text":"rollup CO as well uh really like what what near is doing super bullish and um excited for chain abstraction to be in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2754s"},{"start_seconds":2764,"text":"the Forefront I think the narrative's been picking up significantly so we excited to play our part in that and um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2764s"},{"start_seconds":2771,"text":"yeah guys show some demos get some user generated content get some people trying the apps and seeing how easy it is get a video of your grandma or your mom using","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2771s"},{"start_seconds":2780,"text":"a near wallet like let's show people the real usage and let's show people that this is easy let's not just talk about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2780s"},{"start_seconds":2788,"text":"it and make it abstract let's show demos let's show tangible results and I can help do a ugc if you guys need for near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2788s"},{"start_seconds":2796,"text":"for any chain of struction wall and I'm happy to try it out and I think that's what we need War","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM&t=2796s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=8iJKc8knANM","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/8iJKc8knANM"}