{"id":"8M7eI4R91m8","title":"Chain Abstraction w/ Kendall Cole, Founder of Proximity Labs","description":"Kendall Cole is the founder of Proximity Labs, a research and development firm, and serves as the Head of Product at NEAR Protocol. Previously, he was a Product Manager at Kauri and ConsenSys, roles that highlight his extensive experience in the blockchain industry.\n\nProximity Labs is a research and development firm dedicated to advancing the NEAR and Aurora ecosystem. It focuses on creating innovative DeFi projects, providing developer support, and fostering the growth of decentralized applications within the NEAR ecosystem.\n\nTwitter/X: @kendaIIc\nLinkedIn: Kendall Cole\nWebsite: Proximity Labs\n\nAltan, Joe, and Kendall discuss Chain Signatures, a distributed MPC network that allows NEAR smart contracts or accounts to sign transactions for any blockchain. They explore keeping NEAR users within the NEAR context while interacting with other chains, highlighting NEAR's smart accounts and scalability for chain abstraction. They detail the technical flow, cost implications, and user experience of using Chain Signatures, which abstracts different blockchains to simplify user interactions. While some transactions require settlement times, intermediate steps can be settled in near real-time, enabling seamless applications that integrate multiple blockchains, from improving Bitcoin lending user experiences to creating new applications leveraging chain signatures.\n\nTakeaways\n• Chain Signatures is a distributed MPC network that enables NEAR smart contracts or accounts to sign transactions for any blockchain, unlocking a new design space for interoperability.\nNEAR's scalability and vision of being an entry point for a large number of transactions on other blockchains make it a suitable choice for chain abstraction.\n• The technical flow of using Chain Signatures involves a smart contract that listens to signature requests and an operator network that computes the signatures.\n• The cost of using Chain Signatures depends on the gas costs of the destination chain, but NEAR's low gas costs and ability to offload interactions can help reduce costs.\n• Chain Signatures offers the opportunity for developers to create user experiences that are less transactional and more seamless, abstracting away the need for constant transaction signing. Chain signatures allow for the abstraction of different blockchains, reducing the need for direct user interactions with the messy parts of a blockchain.\n• Examples of potential use cases include improving the user experience of existing applications, such as Bitcoin lending, and creating entirely new applications that leverage the capabilities of chain signatures.\n\nTimestamps:\n01:25 Enabling Interoperability with Chain Signatures\n02:50 Keeping Users within the NEAR Ecosystem\n08:04 NEAR's Unique Features for Chain Abstraction\n15:37 Technical Flow of Requesting and Signing Transactions\n21:20 Cost Implications of Using Chain Signatures\n23:17 Community Governance of Chain Signatures\n24:05 Abstracting the Complexity of Interacting with Multiple Blockchains\n26:30 Improving the Trading Experience for Bitcoin-Based Assets\n28:26 Creating a Retail-Friendly Bitcoin Lending Protocol\n30:51 Building Applications that Compose Multiple Different Blockchains\n37:45 Supporting the Launch of Chain Signatures\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nNEAR AI: https://near.ai/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near \nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\n#NEAR #nearprotocol #nearai \n\nDISCLAIMER\n\n\nThe content herein is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and does not constitute an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any securities, options, futures, or other derivatives related to securities in any jurisdiction, nor should not be relied upon as advice to buy, sell or hold any of the foregoing. This content is intended to be general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. You should not make any decision, financial, investment, trading or otherwise, based on any of the information presented without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional advisor. NEAR Foundation and its agents, advisors, council members, officers and employees (the “Foundation Parties”) make no representation or warranties, expressed or implied, as to the accuracy of the information herein and expressly disclaims any and all liability that may be based on such information or any errors or omissions therein. The Foundation Parties shall have no liability whatsoever, under contract, tort, trust or otherwise, to any person arising from or related to the content or any use of the information contained herein by you or any of your representatives. All opinions expressed herein are the speakers’ own personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions of any entities.","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2024-08-02T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/8M7eI4R91m8/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstracted tocom for more information hey everybody uh this is chain abstracted uh I've actually sort of like forgot what the what the opp episode is I've been just doing a bunch of things uh I did this is actually fifth this week so um which is quite uh rare but um I'm Alton and one of the founders in ecosystem and we have today actually I'll let him introduce himself who's going to co-host this with us and uh we'll do a deep dive into uh chain signatures which we're quite excited about yeah thanks yeah I'm I'm Joe I'm from uh near devhub I'm part of the dev relations kind of arm of near protocol and um I also co-host a couple shows on devhub as well so thanks to kind of do the collaboration here awesome and we have Kendall from proximity actually who's going to who's going to talk about uh chain signature and we're going to Deep dive into everything from sort of Technology side to to the applications that we're quite excited about Kendall uh please introduce us yeah thanks for having the show guys hey everyone my name is Kendall I'm one of the co-founders of a company called proximity uh that does a lot of research and development for the near ecosystem uh and we're collaborating very closely with the pakota team on the Goa market for a product called chain signatures uh which the tldr is it's an NPC a distributed MPC Network that uh lets any near smart contract or account sign a transaction for any blockchain uh which unlocks an entirely new design space and interoperability uh and even kind of chain agnostic applications that we're really excited about cool um how did this start like why uh how did the problem where did the problem come in that you know hey like in near near account should be able to sign a transaction and um just love to hear a bit more about the the story of it yeah for sure uh David from pagota is probably the best person to talk about the very very early days but at least as far as the problem space uh I mean I think it really started with uh you know near fortunately has some some pretty heavily used end user applications uh you know several that are kind of in the millions of You Know da mayus um and these these applications tend to be like one of the first touch points to kind of the blockchain world or like using an a blockchain application for these users um and so we're obvious couldn't be more excited about the direction of the new system itself you know the entire space is growing pretty quickly and and I think we're starting to see very interesting applications pop up on a variety of different chains um and so uh one of the the problems that chain St was designed to solve here is like well how do we keep these users in sort of the near context keep near as this amazing onboarding point point but then like actually let them interact with other applications on other chains um so that was like one angle that was sort of taken as like what what kind of Technology could we use like what type of solution can we build that would have basically power that experience and then the other side of the equation is that like you know we we've been working with a a lot of great developers over over the years um and uh often times we feel like we're kind of competing against the other chains to basically get these developers it's like hey you shouldn't build your your protocol on xchain you should build it on near because of x y and z um and these developers they're usually pretty early in their their product sort of life cycle and they're like okay I have to make this like really critical decision about my uh my infrastructure and even like a community embed myself in when when really I'm just trying to power this experience for users like maybe I don't even want them to know they're on a chain at all but I still have to like make this make this crazy decision and fortunately like that's gotten easier for n over the years because N is a lot more established now but when we were first starting out we were like hey uh you guys should write in a language that no other chain uses you should uh bet on us even though we're not live yet may never go live uh and you should take all of these risks like right as the first thing you do for your for your business which is like kind of insane um so uh I I think like what's really exciting about you know what chain signatures offers is like we can kind of like change the the conversation a lot and say like no like you guys can be wherever you want it doesn't really matter but the cool thing is that if you use chain signatures is like you're actually pretty abstracted from on an infrastructure level from needing to like really rely on you know any specific chain now obviously the cabat here is you have to rely on near like fortunately though near has you know now like almost going on four years of you know being live and end no downtime um but it does mean that you can actually you know serve users wherever they might pop up and I think especially for projects like you know oracles dexes lending protocols like these type of things like they really just want to serve users wherever they wherever they they they arise they want to let your users interact with whatever applications exist and so like they they're pretty excited about that like being able to not have to like lock themselves into a specific place and they they still of course can you still can like build on chain signatures go focus on the salon EOS system for 6 to 12 months like that that doesn't change at all but it means that if you then want to then switch and focus on like or uh or ton or whatever it is like you can do that with the much over left so um yeah all that together I think like you know from like unlocking more experiences for existing near users and like turning them into really just crypto users uh and then also like kind of changing the infrastructure decision-making process for uh for application layer developers is where is really what chain signatures was sort of born out of that was like the spirit of where where it Rose it's a it's a great introduction uh one of the things that I want to just maybe highlight for people that you you brought up here is that like you're not trying to necessarily get people to instantly convert their infrastructure right like it's part of like a you're seeing it as a process of can we get you to this change over and infrastructure because established projects might be a little weary of something like this yeah absolutely and I think you're exactly right that like the yeah we I mean it it's depends on the project we're talking too the net new projects were like hey look the cool thing is if you start here then you can go anywhere but yeah for the established projects the conversation does look very different it's more like hey you guys are on the ebm you you're expressing interest in wanting to move to Sal wanting to move to ton wanting to move to these other chains or maybe even s of Bitcoin that's like a common a very common conversation we have today uh and so our what we're say to them is look if you start to utilize chain signatures for your multi-chain plans like doesn't even have to be for your base kind of infrastructure this can basically uh dramatically shorten your your time to integration on all these other chains so it's kind of like a great for existing project is like a great second step uh is like all right you're already evm you're already svm you're already movm whatever go to chain signatures decks and then you unlock every other ecosystem without having to like you know basically build like this is coners a conversation we have with Oracle providers in particular quite often is like hey stop stop having to like onboard your team to like an entirely new uh virtual machine and like stack uh build on chain signatures and then serve those much more easily yeah so I have a question I guess there's a bunch of fellow ones out there uh there's near there's you know there I can count maybe like 20 30 um what makes near unique in a sense to play in this chain abstracted world uh and you know maybe some what are the features that are we were made probably in 2019 201 20 that enables um sort of these features to be live yes it's a great question so I mean there are some l1s not a lot but some that are kind of playing in a similar space you know I think definity was kind of on the earlier side of this type of approach uh thorchain is like a very very specific use case but like a similar type of approach to this um but some of the advantages that near has you know I think it's two or three in particular you know one one of the earliest decisions that made was this idea of like instru ing smart accounts uh or this like account abstraction into the just the generic account design for the protocol for from day one uh meaning that like basically every near account had can have any number of keys it can have very discrete permissions uh it can have a smart contract on it that it actually only kind of governing its its own account uh you know all these things can kind of be true it's like this was like really baked into the protocol and that's it's actually made it really powerful it's like there are other teams offering this kind of NPC or programable NPC but combining programmable NPC with this really really powerful account structure unlocks a lot of use cases so like we've we've already seen quite a few wallet teams that'll be going live on day one like sweat and and bitsa uh in particular that basically have like multi-chain account abstraction or like multi chain Pass Key based wallets uh and they'll work for every single chain kind of out of the box like on day one which is something nobody else has and it it was a much lower lift for these teams to get to that point because we already have those smart account features sort of baked in they didn't we didn't need need all this infrastructure around it that they had to create themselves or work with other providers to get it it just existed in near and like we built created best practices around it done this stuff for going on five years now um so that's like been one huge differentiator and then the other I think is you know it really is going to be the scalability like if the vision here is to actually have near be kind of like an entry point or like the origination for a very very large number of transactions that'll land on other blockchains so in a way that looks like Mir needs to have to be able to support the throughput of a bunch of different blockchains combined uh now I mean I don't think we imagine that like n will be the the sole entry point to you know to crypto by ever um but I think it will be for a large number of of users and a large number of applications and so that's easily you know tens of millions of transactions a day you know getting up to you know I think getting up to like the nine fig number before hopefully before too long uh and so you you do need a really scalable base layer in order to be able to support that uh and you actually probably even need to like one of the ways that like uh this this whole thing works there's like a smart contract that is where the signature sort of originates you uh if we start getting a lot of signature requests like that might even exceed the throughput of A Single Shard and so that contract actually needs to be deployed on multiple shards um and and and like we have a couple of teams already thinking through this there's a couple of Dex teams who are thinking like hey if we really knock it out of the park here you know we're going to have insane load and so we actually need to get ahead of this this load and like start designing uh our system to scale to this upfront um and you know because because of of the decisions that you know IL and Alex in particular and Bowen made uh you know many years ago uh near is going to be able to handle that even if you know even if we succeed you know to our wildest dreams of having there be like this kind of Hub chain interesting one of the things uh that I've heard on previous episodes of this show of people talking about their infrastructure is right like you you still have to kind of own like a big good piece of it even if you're trying to decentralize a lot of things there somebody has to be that initial owner of stuff how is that going to work on near and like you just said like there's that concern right of like uh you know someone's got to manage how do we handle that throughput and how do we deploy these contracts how does that like look what how can you break that down for us yeah that is a great question um so right now the pagota team uh is the one who's responsible for like this engineering work and um you know at least while the product is in test net they will be kind of responsible for that contract that's deployed I think in the very earliest days of mainnet there will likely be some type of multisig that's going to be uh you know kind of owning that contract that I you know probably be split among some of the early kind of near core developer teams um but that's actually something that we approximately been brainstorming a lot about and we'll have together with pagota NF and others we'll have some proposals coming out to the community I'd say in the next like two months um that I think paint a picture of how this could evolve uh but basically to to like give some insights into the way we're thinking of it um yeah I mean you know I think we want to look at uh you know what some of the more prominent kind of Dow based type of teams like I you compound maker Dow and a in particular where uh you do want to have some pretty distributed ownership of these like really really critical contracts I think you probably even want to get to a point potentially where you enrin this into like make the make the choice be done by the validator set themselves uh over like this kind of Court contract like maybe it even becomes a pre-compile at some point um and that way you can and even and then and so like that's one side is like who governs the contract the other side is like who governs the operator set you know I think there's there's no question that the vision of who governs that operator set should be uh a combination of the near validator set and the near token holders uh and so the proposal that we are going to sort of uh you know or like the thoughts at least that we're going to sort of put out there and bring up for Community discussion is going to be leaning into that direction the fact that like it's absolutely imperative that uh this set of node operators is is is determined by the people who are using this system which will be the near token holders and and ultimately the near validator set so I think there's I think there's a future version where like if this does become you know really like right now it's you know call it an experiment it's an experiment we're really excited about there's like 15 plus teams building even more that are really excited and like starting to get into it it's like I'm I'm confident that it's going to be a thing and I think you know programable NPC is is part of where the space is moving for certain use cases um but it is still an experiment and so it's like a little premature I think to enshrine this into the core protocol today which is why it is kind of being you know operated as like an independent sort of initiative by you know independent teams and and it'll be kind of set up as like Community govern but like not enshrined into like near itself uh but yeah if this ends up being you know becoming a core differentiator for n if it ends up like you know really I think driving a lot of the economic activity on near I think there's at least a good argument that it should be up for consideration to be enshrined into the core protocol ultimately that would be the decision of you know the near validators and the near token hle in a really big way and I think it'll probably be quite some time before that would be appropriate but uh yeah just the tldr on that whole sort of statement this needs to be Community governed uh it's it's extremely extremely sensitive and important infrastructure um I think it offers a lot of benefit to pretty much everybody building in the near e system and gives a lot of teams a reason to build in the near ecosystem even if they do want to serve these other communities which is a big unlock uh that being said um yeah it's uh you know it's sensitive right we're talking about like managing private Keys here and and and that needs to be done in in you know as decentralized and Trust minimized of a way as possible yeah that's that's quite cool I mean one of the things I've I wish I had the chance when I got into near was to be able to interact with those communities and liquidity that comes with like I don't know Bitcoin and ethereum right I mean this is quite a unlock um yeah I wish this was possible in in 2022 when I when I got into space but um it's happening right now so which is cool um but love to love to hear a bit more about let's walk through um it's sort of like a flow um technical flow let's say let's say candle wants to um send a transaction using chain signatures to there's a new chain which we called it I don't know Kendall chain uh and wants to sign a transaction through near and how you know everybody launches change these days uh but um yeah if you can walk us through how that would work um that would be actually amazing and and I think the the listeners would like it as well yeah absolutely so set this stage a little bit so uh the critical components of a chain signature it's as Joe kind of alluded to there's the smart contract that's basically listening to requests for signatures so that takes uh three arguments around three a payload which is basically like what should be signed so often times this will be a transaction or transaction hash um it takes in a key derivation path um and basically the the idea of like how the MPC Network silos who can sign for what is twofold so each near account basically goes through this key derivation function that key derivation function takes in the near account as an argument it takes in um a derivation path which means that like a user could control any number of accounts on any other chain they can like augment the public key that's being used to sign so that they can you know have 50 Bitcoin addresses or like a thousand mates or a million I mean any number and then and then finally it takes in like the the kind of Master public key of the MPC operative Network like which will change over time that changes every time the set rotates um so with the with these three pieces of information it turns into like this kind of unique key that only this account can sign for so walking back to like the signature request the payload the key derivation path to like determine which you know which account you're signing for and then finally it's the key type so initially we uh the the chain signatures product will support ecds signatures only so that's going to be Bitcoin every single evm chain most Cosmos chains uh I think at least apos Source we are both in in some degree um and actually near uh as of very recently uh and so that's like wave one and then wave two uh later this year will be eddsa which will add support for salana Native support at least salana ton uh sub straight chains and a few others uh and snore signatures on bitcoin as well um so those are the three pieces of information that are passed in so that's into a smart contract and then listening to the smart contract is a set of the NPC operators so the NPC operators are running like their own node software basically uh and they're literally like they have a near indexer as part of their software that each of them is running listening to requests that that pop into the specific contract so they see a signature request they do that key deration function to figure out okay this is the key we need to sign for for this specific uh near account and then they basically work with each other to compute that final signature because each of these operators they have a Shard of the the sort of Master private key of this system but they they don't alone they cannot alone basically compute a valid signature for like the end result kind of account and this is how you basically protect basically protect the uh the users ultimately of the smart contracts from malicious behavior on the part of some number of operators or hacks or these kind of things so generally you want that set to be you know on the larger side uh and you particularly want that set to be you know having like a pretty insane set of security guarantees and like we'll get to like this very long list of basically like defense and depth how you can basically like lock down this network as much as possible but more to come on that later um so those are those are the two main components uh smart account smart contract where the the system listens to requests and then the operator Network that basically returns those like computes that signature and returns it back to uh like returns it actually back into that near smart contract so that it's all on chain you have the request and the response on chain which could also be used for like certain verification methods and you know potentially even add slashing uh if that was necessary for the system so those are kind of the building box so now let's get into like how I would request a transaction to sign on on kendle chain so as if I'm just like holding a near account I can actually just like send a transaction to this smart contract that includes the payload I want signed so this is the transaction on kendle chain uh whatever whatever derivation path I want to use to like specify a single account probably I just use you know something like basic like one two three uh or or some kind of like hash uh but usually this will be you know done in the in the front end and then like let's say that you know Kendall chain is an ecdsa chain so I'll like specify ecdsa so I send I send this this transaction request from my own account uh and then I will receive back once the signature has been computed in you know a couple of seconds uh the the finalized kind of version of the transaction that I can then send to kendle chain um so that's how basically I would I would handle that process like I I uh send a transaction to this sign smart contract include the details receive back this sign payload and then and then I relay that to kendle chain now typically for the user they won't be aware of any of this happening for them it's going to look like okay I want to deposit eth into a great they'll click a couple of buttons determine how much they want to you know include get a popup to sign a transaction do that in the background probably from the front end uh the front end will be waiting to to receive the signature see that it was included on the near blockchain Great take it package it into like a valid ethereum transaction and then hit some RPC provider and then you know it'll make its way into the actual ethereum uh ethereum blockchain or kendle chain or you know Bitcoin whatever whatever is being done uh and then if it's a smart contract that's doing this um you know similar type of approach well you'll have like some type of relayer system uh that'll be kind of managing managing this whole process end to end good job getting a on on kendle train by the way um but just joking with you U but um good I mean this this this breaks down how how it would work um on the user side just one other question is like how cheap it would this be like is it um does it depend on the blockchain that it's interacting with or do you guys have any like estimations uh because nearest itself is pretty cheap but um like is is it a dependency on let's say we're signing a transaction on bitcoin um yeah how this how this would how this mechanism would work yeah I mean you can't really get around uh the fact that if you want this transaction to be included in a on a destination chain you're going to have to pay the gas cost of the destination chain um so Bitcoin in particular because Bitcoin well you know Bitcoin really has like they have a few different signature types but there's like really one action which is like transfer Bitcoin I mean you could transfer zero and you can include like in op returns some data or something like that and you know come up with runes or these different kind of use cases but like it's pretty simple so like you are just going to be bound by by the transaction cost I think it actually gets really interesting on Smart contract chains because obviously there are different types of um you know different types of gas costs depending on like what additional State you're adding into the chain whether you're interacting with a smart contract all these kind of things what's really cool about chain signatures is that uh two things are true one uh you basically bring smart contract functionality to externally owned accounts you don't have to like you don't have to actually interact with a smart contract on ethereum in order to basically like generate uh the sort of like generate the the transaction itself and like determine what's going to be done in a smart contract on year and year is much cheaper to use than ethereum um so we've had a few teams experimenting with like ways to actually almost act as like a side chain to the eth main net uh because like if you wanted to do a swap for instance like one user has usdc one user has e if you if you send that swap through unit swap the gas cost going to be much higher than if you just did like a simple transfer of like e to one address and usdc to the other because you also have to like you know hit the amm pool do the calculations like all those kind of things um with chain signatures you could actually boil that interaction down to just a simple transfer um and I mean I'd say on like Salon chains like this it's not going to make a material difference but on eth Main net on ton interestingly enough ton has like way lower gas costs for transfers than for uh like smart contract interactions for for whatever reason uh you actually can lower the gas costs even on the destination chain just by sort of changing the structure of of the way you're you're completing the action um so yeah it generally it's going to be additive it's going to be like the near gas cost which fortunately is very low and like there's not much additional cost for the signature so it's like I'd say negligible in the context of an ethereum gas cost for salana or something like that'll be slightly more noticeable um but depending on on you know what you're trying to do I think it it's really going to look more like the destination chain gas cost for the user than anything on the near side and often times I think the applications of the near side will be willing to cover the near gas cost because like they'll be making more from like their fee on whatever the interaction that the user is having then then it'll cost them on the near side yeah I mean that really that's a really interesting approach is the economics seem to really make a difference here in how you start to architect like what your app is doing how it's doing things and it's for me it sounds like that it gives me the opportunity as a developer to be a little bit creative of like how am I creating this user experience where it doesn't have to be and for lack of better a term like so like transactional all the time on web 3 right so like part of the poor experience that people in Ms have is that everything's a transaction back and forth constantly where it sounds like here I can be a little bit more conscientious of at what point do I do need to finally send some kind of payload to a particular chain and to execute what I want instead of just constantly having to do that but with that I guess comes of like for the user experience at what point am I as the end user signing something am I still constantly having to you know open my metamask or whatever it might be and my near wallet and constantly sign something or are we able to kind of abstract some of that away as well yeah that's a very good question uh maybe just to talk about a specific use case where I think you could take advantage of some of these patterns so um we're very excited about runes and ordinals on bitcoin but we're not excited excited about is the uh the current activity there because well you have to interact with Bitcoin which is slow and expensive and prone to a lot of me uh so it's I would I would frame the runes trading experience today as borderline unusable um maybe even just unusable which is why the volumes have been like frankly disappointing despite the fact that the marketplaces are actually pretty cool technical achievements but they're just so limited by what Bitcoin and offer it it doesn't matter the U the ux is is just terrible um so what I think is really cool about chain signatures you can kind of offload a lot of the uh interactions from like Bitcoin to near while keeping the ux as close to kind of Bitcoin as possible in the sense that like you can actually let users still use their Bitcoin wallet even to sign the near transactions you can use meta transactions on the near side to like cover the near gas cost users never have to like explicitly hold near so for them they're like they're basically trading runes eventually they want to get those runes out of the marketplace back into their Bitcoin wallet because like maybe their Maxis whatever maybe they just they love Bitcoin right and like the whole point of Bitcoin runs is that they're on bitcoin right if if you're trading Bitcoin runs on salana it's like okay but that's like what just trade salana coins like you know um so I think like really this should only be done for a a set period of time so like the the experience we kind of Envision is like step one you deposit to an exchange everyone does this with centralized exchanges anyway it's nice that on unisoft you don't have to deposit first but like you still have to sign the approval transaction and do those things it's it's more or less the same it's like the same friction realistically so step one is the deposit but then you're in near so what and you're probably even in a specific uh contract on near so when you you mention like the need to sign every single time well I mean one of the coolest features on near uh is that you can create like an access key that basically restricts very specifically like what you can do as a user with that particular key they can be saved in your browser um so that you can you know not have to explicitly sign transactions but still complete things uh and you don't obviously you don't want to attach a ton of money to this and that's why you know for with deposit withdrawals he's like fun movement you know we we typically recommend developers or even require in a lot of cases that developers cannot um you know cannot cannot do this and a user does have the sign of transaction I think we can have this same experience where like a user sends their Bitcoin to this Bitcoin address that's controlled by like this Marketplace contract on near and then with their Bitcoin account or not even with their Bitcoin account but they can then have an access key basically for that account just be clicking buttons they'll be trading runes they'll be you know making these interactions like they'll you know changing their balance whatever and then finally when they want to when they want to draw then they'll sign one more transaction using their Bitcoin wallet so they don't have to onboard to new wallet and they'll receive those runes or Bitcoin or whatever there is that they would drawing back to their back to their their their wallet and like for them it basically felt exactly like it would if they deposited binance sign a transaction to get it into binance then just click a bunch of buttons things happen you can believe in those in the sanctity of what's happening on the screen check it on chain so it's even better than binance and then you can sign one more transaction to withdraw um so maybe one more transaction than binance because you'll sign to withdraw instead of just trust that binance will actually process your withdraw but the benefit of that is that like you know for sure it's going to happen um so yes the long way of answering your question that like absolutely using near here and some of the near specific features you can in fact cut down on the amount of transactions that users will have to sign and you could repeat the same kind of pattern for anything like you could do this on for like ethereum assets ton whatever you can like kind of use n n is just N I think is is is probably the furthest ahead when it comes to like abstracting things from the ux like we actually just have a lot of products as an ecosystem and and a lot of you know successful ones that enable this type of like minimizing the direct interactions us have to have with like the messy parts of a blockchain um and teams now like any team even from other ecosystems or the targ other ecosystems can actually leverage that technology because of chain signatures and the fact that they can let the user get back to uh the chain that they originated on as the end user then you know am I going to still have to experience in like the longer wait times for things to settle like bitcoin's obviously the longer settlement time than near how does that all kind of work out yeah that's a great question um a lot of it will depend on the application but I'll give two examples so an example I was just talking about with runes uh that deposit step you would still have to wait for Bitcoin to settle uh in order to credit your account on the near side uh so there's a like client fortunately which is a great trust minimized way to to be able to credit it but it's going to have to wait for at least one block confirmation it looks like binance is using one block confirmation these days so no more than two uh so like 10 to 20 minutes so like that step will require time no way to get around that just like if you were using a centralized exchange and then on the withdrawal step you would but then the intermediate part when you're in the system trading ruins and it'll be you know Bitcoin denominated that can be near settlement time so that's one example another example um I mean similar but I think like the that we're excited about so uh you can't get around that deposit step you basically you need your assets to be custodi by an account that's controlled by a smart contract uh and so you're going to have to get your assets from like your personal account into that that just will be kind of a fundamental limitation for I think I think just it's it's intractable like that'll just be the case uh but uh after that step what's cool is like even if you're trading assets between different chains so like if I'm on bitcoin you're on ethereum I deposit to my Bitcoin account that's controlled by this contract you do the same thing for ethereum we can actually trade those assets and like that settlement will happen at near time because immediately after that one second block on near I can all of a sudden sign to withdraw or send your your ethereum originally your ethereum wherever I want to and you can do the same with what what was my Bitcoin um so like the settlement happens at near time after that withdrawal step um even if like getting it into an account that only you control that isn't the smart contract will take a little bit longer um now we might see this combined by some of the teams building wallets where like you know you you'll get your assets from wherever into your wallet you'll be using it as your wallet which is like a you know already in the near context and they might be able to cut down on this even more because then you're actually kind of just transferring the asset control on near if you want to move it from like your Bitcoin account to one control by the smart contract uh and so that might be able to abstract away that kind of setlement time even more so there's a couple of like very exciting partners coming out on that wallet side that I think are going to do a good job of like really dominating the end end flow from from like customing assets to trading them to engaging with Defi and I think that's where you're going to see some of the really serious ux gains where like you might not need to interact with the Bitcoin blockchain very often as a user if you don't want to um and and you can see some of those those gains but fundamentally you know you there are likely there's going to still be a lot of like deposit and withdrawal steps for users yeah that's great um I am I have a question on the sort of like the application side so let's say somebody listens to this and gets quite excited about chain signatures like what are you guys seeing on the proximity side they're like oh this is something that uh you know nobody's building and and we would want someone to build on uh maybe like a couple of use cases that uh I I know you mentioned about a bunch maybe you can start with like mentioning what you're excited about currently and then what you want people to build on yeah so definitely that runes example I think there's an opportunity to make runes great for the first time not even again like literally make them great so I'd love to see teams do that uh I think Bitcoin lending there's still not a good retail friendly Bitcoin lending protocol and what I mean by that is like if you have Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain and you want to borrow against it you're looking at like an hour minimum and like probably two wallets um with Bridges and all kinds of different gas costs in order to actually do that um and especially to do that in and I think that's like ridiculous um we're convinced that you know we with chain signatures a team could get it down to like two steps deposit s send your Bitcoin to an address and then borrow and that's it like you set your borrow details and you could end up with a stable coin and potentially have that stable coin just about anywhere maybe even in your binance account like wherever you sort of want it um which will be and that can happen within I'm I'm confident that can happen within like under 12 minutes probably pretty close to 10 um which is a Bitcoin block time anyway which would be yeah like a good you know 6X speed up with like three less steps so um I think that would be super exciting um so that's in the Bitcoin side um then um I think like probably the most interesting design space like nobody's really explored this because Intel now hasn't in particularly possible is this idea of composing like having an application that composes multiple different blockchains together so it's basically like one application one end user experience that's leveraging like either applications or entirely different blockchains that are existing on different chains so an example I've been giving a lot of this is like if you wanted to if you were a big fan of Athena and the fact that they've got this like uh you know tokenized basis trade kind of product that earns you like a more or less stable yield with like pretty high API that's like somewhat sustainable at least over the long term um and you wanted to do this in a decentralized way you you'd have to compose together at least two or three blockchains so you need to First you need to choose either e or Bitcoin uh on their native chain so like let's use Bitcoin because it's it's more fun for this example so you have Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain then you somehow need to like turn that Bitcoin into usdc on either hyper liquid or uh dydx so if you can swap it so that means you'll have to bridge somewhere but like that would suck or you could borrow against it which is better uh but then you need to Su chain with the lending protocol which can't be dydx because they're an L1 that only supports the swap so like now you're looking at minimum two blockchains and then you like fine you you borrowed USD against your Bitcoin you now need to deposit it into DX and and get that 1X short position three blockchains you can't do that today you cannot do that in a in a decentralized way uh with chain signatures though uh which will be on mainnet very very soon you would be able to do this because you can basically create this Bitcoin deposit account from the smart contract on the near side user deposits their Bitcoin to this account um then on near you could actually have the lending protocol uh that'll let the user borrow against that Bitcoin and borrow at like a higher loan to value since you know it's going to be backed by the WX short position um so you like let the user borrow usdc then that same contract as soon as that usdc is borrowed goes and like ccps or or or layer zeros or like whatever is that usdc over to DX and buys that one extra position and that that's using a change signature right like the contract is actually creating the that order to be put into DX and then you can tokenize that um and you can know that each of the steps will actually happen uh that if any of those steps fails you can roll back the whole thing get the the uscc back to the lender get the the BTC back to the the depositor all of that uh because it's actually all being controlled by a smart contract on here and each of these signatures being generated in the exact proper order for the exact proper amount and all this is verifiable um so that's just one like kind of overthe toop complicated example of like something that has not been possible before a system like chain signatures that now will be possible and so that's an entirely new design space I mean there's a lot of things that we have no idea about that people are going to do and so I'd love to see people thinking about what types of applications could you build if you have like the entire crypto ecosystem of applications and and chains and things open to you yeah I want to if you don't mind I want to kind of stay in that space a little bit because there's something that you know when I talk to a lot of different developers and products that one of the things that starts to come up of especially now in web 3 and crypto being so new still uh is that it's sometimes hard to find like where where my product actually can fit in and be maximized and what I mean by that is you know how do I actually take advantage of this technology has put in front of me as you in your role at proximity and as someone who is constantly talking to people on the ground how much of this is like a educational sales pitch a little bit of to show them and then how much of it is like we actually just need that initial product to show the power of it and then it'll be easier for people to start to kind of come in here and do that yeah it's a really good question um I would say it's it's it's both and and more efforts right it's like I think you know we for fortunately what what's cool about this technology is like for a lot of teams who are already building a near they kind of immediately get it I think part of it's like we've been rying teams for this for for a while uh and they're like oh I mean so like for bit to Mint base the formerly known as mbased sweat um in particular here wallet they were like oh this immediately opens up what our users can do and so like there was I think there was very little like they like once we describe what it was and what the intention was they're like great I understand it I can do this and and like now it's just further their goal right um for some teams like a ref or a burrow I think kind of similar they're like oh cool like we can Now list assets that uh exist in all these other chains that users want great um for yeah for for like the this kind of net new use case like the one I just described that's where it's a lot more of like okay we need to come up with a lot of different ideas and like generate ideas in community like you know like re really try to inspire people and educate people about what's possible I think like that like the the net new use case has been the much harder thing they're like okay you can do XYZ in a better or different or or new way that's a bit of an easier conversation uh but like you know opening up the design space like that's where it's been like it's been much harder right so that's why we're kind of taking the onus upon ourselves along with like pagota and and others to uh to really try to come up with as many ideas as possible like formulate them shape them create some diagrams of how it could work technically uh and from like a user experience perspective uh and then share those with teams like and you know like like to to sort of you get people there so I would say it's it really depends on the team and it depends on the use case there are some no-brainers there are some just immediate unlocks and like it make like it immediately makes sense for a team because it's like they're looking for that solution and then there are other like you know the like more Pie in the Sky type of stuff is definitely more you know long-term educational a lot of conversations gonna it's you know just going to take more more time for sure yeah is that something where it's imperative that communities like within the ecosystem are trying to help fund them whether it's through like hackathons or just in general or is it something like we just want to see it kind of naturally evolve and I guess this is like a fancy way of saying like like what is a Time Horizon where you really need to feel that people are understanding it and like rocking it and actually being able to start to leverage it like how much do you force the issue on that yeah that's a good question I mean I think the onus is on us uh us being like kind of everyone uh but like you know whoever whoever wants to take it upon themselves to start making things happen and like figure out how we could use it ourselves right I think that's like step one and like demonstrating what's possible but like so I I I guess the short answer that question is like I think we should force the issue um just because I think like without forcing the issue it might it might not really happen right like trying to create an ecosystem around a new design space I think requires like The Originators of it to uh be very uh um like like build kind of dog food it requires a lot of dog fooding I think to get right that's something we learned from like the whole near experience right is like dog fooding is absolutely imperative it's like the only way you can really get people to use your stuff um you me so this like open AI right it's like obviously people were excited about you know open AI before Chachi BT but like Chachi BT is what like that's what opened the design space because people are like oh okay so I think it's like the same story for us as well yeah so in terms of I guess um how should one start building on uh chain signatures and like let's say um you know there there Builders out there that that see this podcast and want to kind of contribute to to building on chain signatures like what's the point of contact or you know what are the docks they can see um yeah curious about it mainly so that others can this can kind of jump in start building yeah absolutely um I think the the best way yeah I I would check out we actually have a link tree that has an easy it's like link tree slash chain signatures uh that has links to the docs to videos um talks examples code repos uh that you know can kind of help people get started I'd say that's the the best way to dive in like the docs give a lot of examples themselves they walk through Co the code that you need to structure they walk through kind of the flows that of how this works in that link tree there's I I have a couple of talks with like diagrams that show like here's how you build the multi-chain decks here's how you build the multi lending protocol here's how you build like an ordinals uh an ordinals decks um I think that's probably the best way to get started uh as far as like figuring out what what you can do and then when you're ready to start talking to people like on the proximity side we have on our website proximity dodev we have a contact form uh where like once you have at least like the beginnings of an idea you're like I think this could be really cool you can reach out to us uh through that and you know we we'll chat and you know help help you brainstorm help you figure out how to structure it uh you know whether or not it you know like how to go to market do all those kind of things and yeah one of the things I've I just remembered now um is like um is very under talked as like the near Community I think like um how do we how do you see them what what would be advice for folks to kind of support the chain signatures I think launch is coming up in the in the next weeks or so um like what is the what are the ways that um Community can support um support the the launch in general yeah absolutely uh if you if you are a fan of chain signatures I'd say like please help us you know promote it talk about it talk about why you're excited uh ask questions questions are great too asking questions in public you know a lot of us sitting on Twitter and can can answer them and that's a good way to generate a conversation um which is great because I think that we just want to get the word out so I think that's like the easiest way just talk about it um there's going to be a lot of uh you know kind of longtime near ecosystem projects that'll be coming there'll be some of the first products to Market uh you know sweat is going to be one of them beta uh going to be another diffuse which is you know by uh some of the Aurora team which is like a great multichain Dex all stake which is by uh the lineer team um which is like reaking any asset on any chain here wallet you obviously one of the most exciting I think teams in in the ecosystem right now um all coming out with products so like you know support support the the great Builders iner as they kind of show what's possible um and you know many more coming so i' say that that's definitely the easiest thing to do is just like we really want to get the word out tell your friends uh especially if they're in other ecosystems especially if they're in Bitcoin these types of communities uh just you know trying to get the word out and then obviously building uh I think there's so much that can be built here there's a lot of and like tooling that'll be necessary um and the best way to figure out what I mean talk to us talk to people who are building on chains just today or even just try it out you know try to build something even something simple like you know a smart contract that controls Bitcoin assets like and you'll see all the different things that are you know required there like it's a it's a long time Horizon Project that's going to need you know quite quite a lot of infrastructure around it so uh yeah just try to try to get involved and start building awesome well um anything else Joe from your side just saying I think you know I probably could do another two three hours just talking about different parts of this but as an introduction I think this is really uh great and I did want to just kind of end on maybe to eliminate some confusion because I do see this on social media a little bit too so the term gets thrown around of like chain abstraction and chain signatures and I still see people sometimes using interchangeably some people use it differently I you know the ethereum crowd certainly uses it a little bit differently chain abstraction specifically differently so like what what is the proper terminology people should be using and what is what's the difference of all these different parts of it yeah I I guess I see chain abstraction as kind of like a goal right it's like the goal is to abstract the chains like either abstract the the friction of moving between chains away from like more crypto native folks uh abstract away the friction of like onboard into crypto for newer folks and maybe even abstract away your fact you're using a blackchain at all like those are goals whereas like chain signatures is like a product that can enable teams to build these kind of chain to to achieve the goal of chain abstraction and minimizing these this friction and like you know creating these really high quality user experiences so like that's how I would differentiate them is like chain signatures is near is one of n's sort of key sort of product and features uh in order to like fulfill the sort of vision of of enabling chain abstraction awesome well yeah this this has been great uh I think it breaks down everything for from how chain signatures work what people can build uh so nice to nice to have you here and and chat about pretty much everything about chain signat chain abstraction uh but yeah thanks thanks for thanks for coming along yeah thanks for having me guys thank you yeah super fun awesome thanks","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T05:40:08.923Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":0,"text":"nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice life advice or representative of the views of the organization we are part of or affiliated with see chain abstracted","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=0s"},{"start_seconds":9,"text":"tocom for more information hey everybody uh this is chain abstracted uh I've actually sort of like forgot what the what the opp episode is I've been just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=9s"},{"start_seconds":18,"text":"doing a bunch of things uh I did this is actually fifth this week so um which is quite uh rare but um I'm Alton and one","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=18s"},{"start_seconds":27,"text":"of the founders in ecosystem and we have today actually I'll let him introduce himself who's going to co-host this with us and uh we'll do a deep dive into uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=27s"},{"start_seconds":36,"text":"chain signatures which we're quite excited about yeah thanks yeah I'm I'm Joe I'm from uh near devhub I'm part of the dev","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=36s"},{"start_seconds":43,"text":"relations kind of arm of near protocol and um I also co-host a couple shows on devhub as well so thanks to kind of do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=43s"},{"start_seconds":51,"text":"the collaboration here awesome and we have Kendall from proximity actually who's going to who's going to talk about uh chain signature","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=51s"},{"start_seconds":60,"text":"and we're going to Deep dive into everything from sort of Technology side to to the applications that we're quite excited about Kendall uh please","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=60s"},{"start_seconds":68,"text":"introduce us yeah thanks for having the show guys hey everyone my name is Kendall I'm one of the co-founders of a company called","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=68s"},{"start_seconds":75,"text":"proximity uh that does a lot of research and development for the near ecosystem uh and we're collaborating very closely with the pakota team on the Goa market","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=75s"},{"start_seconds":83,"text":"for a product called chain signatures uh which the tldr is it's an NPC a distributed MPC Network that uh lets any","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=83s"},{"start_seconds":91,"text":"near smart contract or account sign a transaction for any blockchain uh which unlocks an entirely new design space and interoperability uh and even kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=91s"},{"start_seconds":99,"text":"chain agnostic applications that we're really excited about cool um how did this start like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=99s"},{"start_seconds":106,"text":"why uh how did the problem where did the problem come in that you know hey like in near near account should be able to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=106s"},{"start_seconds":113,"text":"sign a transaction and um just love to hear a bit more about the the story of it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=113s"},{"start_seconds":120,"text":"yeah for sure uh David from pagota is probably the best person to talk about the very very early days but at least as far as the problem space uh I mean I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=120s"},{"start_seconds":128,"text":"think it really started with uh you know near fortunately has some some pretty heavily used end user applications uh you know several that are kind of in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=128s"},{"start_seconds":136,"text":"millions of You Know da mayus um and these these applications tend to be like one of the first touch points to kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=136s"},{"start_seconds":144,"text":"the blockchain world or like using an a blockchain application for these users um and so we're obvious couldn't be more excited about the direction of the new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=144s"},{"start_seconds":151,"text":"system itself you know the entire space is growing pretty quickly and and I think we're starting to see very interesting applications pop up on a variety of different chains um and so uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=151s"},{"start_seconds":161,"text":"one of the the problems that chain St was designed to solve here is like well how do we keep these users in sort of the near context keep near as this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=161s"},{"start_seconds":169,"text":"amazing onboarding point point but then like actually let them interact with other applications on other chains um so that was like one angle that was sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=169s"},{"start_seconds":177,"text":"taken as like what what kind of Technology could we use like what type of solution can we build that would have basically power that experience and then the other side of the equation is that like you know we we've been working with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=177s"},{"start_seconds":186,"text":"a a lot of great developers over over the years um and uh often times we feel like we're kind of competing against the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=186s"},{"start_seconds":193,"text":"other chains to basically get these developers it's like hey you shouldn't build your your protocol on xchain you should build it on near because of x y","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=193s"},{"start_seconds":200,"text":"and z um and these developers they're usually pretty early in their their product sort of life cycle and they're like okay I have to make this like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=200s"},{"start_seconds":208,"text":"really critical decision about my uh my infrastructure and even like a community embed myself in when when really I'm just trying to power this experience for users like maybe I don't even want them","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=208s"},{"start_seconds":216,"text":"to know they're on a chain at all but I still have to like make this make this crazy decision and fortunately like that's gotten easier for n over the years because N is a lot more established now but when we were first","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=216s"},{"start_seconds":224,"text":"starting out we were like hey uh you guys should write in a language that no other chain uses you should uh bet on us even though we're not live yet may never","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=224s"},{"start_seconds":231,"text":"go live uh and you should take all of these risks like right as the first thing you do for your for your business which is like kind of insane um so uh I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=231s"},{"start_seconds":239,"text":"I think like what's really exciting about you know what chain signatures offers is like we can kind of like change the the conversation a lot and say like no like you guys can be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=239s"},{"start_seconds":247,"text":"wherever you want it doesn't really matter but the cool thing is that if you use chain signatures is like you're actually pretty abstracted from on an infrastructure level from needing to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=247s"},{"start_seconds":255,"text":"like really rely on you know any specific chain now obviously the cabat here is you have to rely on near like fortunately though near has you know now like almost going on four years of you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=255s"},{"start_seconds":264,"text":"know being live and end no downtime um but it does mean that you can actually you know serve users wherever they might pop up and I think especially for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=264s"},{"start_seconds":272,"text":"projects like you know oracles dexes lending protocols like these type of things like they really just want to serve users wherever they wherever they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=272s"},{"start_seconds":280,"text":"they they arise they want to let your users interact with whatever applications exist and so like they they're pretty excited about that like being able to not have to like lock","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=280s"},{"start_seconds":288,"text":"themselves into a specific place and they they still of course can you still can like build on chain signatures go focus on the salon EOS system for 6 to 12 months like that that doesn't change","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=288s"},{"start_seconds":296,"text":"at all but it means that if you then want to then switch and focus on like or uh or ton or whatever it is like you can do that with the much over left so um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=296s"},{"start_seconds":305,"text":"yeah all that together I think like you know from like unlocking more experiences for existing near users and like turning them into really just crypto users uh and then also like kind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=305s"},{"start_seconds":313,"text":"of changing the infrastructure decision-making process for uh for application layer developers is where is really what chain signatures was sort of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=313s"},{"start_seconds":321,"text":"born out of that was like the spirit of where where it Rose it's a it's a great introduction uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=321s"},{"start_seconds":329,"text":"one of the things that I want to just maybe highlight for people that you you brought up here is that like you're not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=329s"},{"start_seconds":337,"text":"trying to necessarily get people to instantly convert their infrastructure right like it's part of like a you're seeing it as a process of can we get you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=337s"},{"start_seconds":346,"text":"to this change over and infrastructure because established projects might be a little weary of something like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=346s"},{"start_seconds":354,"text":"this yeah absolutely and I think you're exactly right that like the yeah we I mean it it's depends on the project we're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=354s"},{"start_seconds":361,"text":"talking too the net new projects were like hey look the cool thing is if you start here then you can go anywhere but yeah for the established projects the conversation does look very different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=361s"},{"start_seconds":370,"text":"it's more like hey you guys are on the ebm you you're expressing interest in wanting to move to Sal wanting to move to ton wanting to move to these other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=370s"},{"start_seconds":377,"text":"chains or maybe even s of Bitcoin that's like a common a very common conversation we have today uh and so our what we're say to them is look if you start to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=377s"},{"start_seconds":385,"text":"utilize chain signatures for your multi-chain plans like doesn't even have to be for your base kind of infrastructure this can basically uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=385s"},{"start_seconds":392,"text":"dramatically shorten your your time to integration on all these other chains so it's kind of like a great for existing project is like a great second step uh is like all right you're already evm","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=392s"},{"start_seconds":401,"text":"you're already svm you're already movm whatever go to chain signatures decks and then you unlock every other ecosystem without having to like you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=401s"},{"start_seconds":409,"text":"know basically build like this is coners a conversation we have with Oracle providers in particular quite often is like hey stop stop having to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=409s"},{"start_seconds":416,"text":"onboard your team to like an entirely new uh virtual machine and like stack uh build on chain signatures and then serve those much more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=416s"},{"start_seconds":425,"text":"easily yeah so I have a question I guess there's a bunch of fellow ones out there uh there's near there's you know there I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=425s"},{"start_seconds":432,"text":"can count maybe like 20 30 um what makes near unique in a sense to play in this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=432s"},{"start_seconds":440,"text":"chain abstracted world uh and you know maybe some what are the features that are we were made probably in 2019 201 20","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=440s"},{"start_seconds":450,"text":"that enables um sort of these features to be live yes it's a great question so I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=450s"},{"start_seconds":458,"text":"there are some l1s not a lot but some that are kind of playing in a similar space you know I think definity was kind of on the earlier side of this type of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=458s"},{"start_seconds":465,"text":"approach uh thorchain is like a very very specific use case but like a similar type of approach to this um but some of the advantages that near has you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=465s"},{"start_seconds":473,"text":"know I think it's two or three in particular you know one one of the earliest decisions that made was this idea of like instru ing smart accounts","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=473s"},{"start_seconds":481,"text":"uh or this like account abstraction into the just the generic account design for the protocol for from day one uh meaning","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=481s"},{"start_seconds":490,"text":"that like basically every near account had can have any number of keys it can have very discrete permissions uh it can have a smart contract on it that it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=490s"},{"start_seconds":497,"text":"actually only kind of governing its its own account uh you know all these things can kind of be true it's like this was like really baked into the protocol and that's it's actually made it really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=497s"},{"start_seconds":506,"text":"powerful it's like there are other teams offering this kind of NPC or programable NPC but combining programmable NPC with this really really powerful account","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=506s"},{"start_seconds":514,"text":"structure unlocks a lot of use cases so like we've we've already seen quite a few wallet teams that'll be going live on day one like sweat and and bitsa uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=514s"},{"start_seconds":521,"text":"in particular that basically have like multi-chain account abstraction or like multi chain Pass Key based wallets uh and they'll work for every single chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=521s"},{"start_seconds":529,"text":"kind of out of the box like on day one which is something nobody else has and it it was a much lower lift for these teams to get to that point because we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=529s"},{"start_seconds":536,"text":"already have those smart account features sort of baked in they didn't we didn't need need all this infrastructure around it that they had to create themselves or work with other providers to get it it just existed in near and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=536s"},{"start_seconds":545,"text":"like we built created best practices around it done this stuff for going on five years now um so that's like been one huge differentiator and then the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=545s"},{"start_seconds":552,"text":"other I think is you know it really is going to be the scalability like if the vision here is to actually have near be kind of like an entry point or like the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=552s"},{"start_seconds":560,"text":"origination for a very very large number of transactions that'll land on other blockchains so in a way that looks like Mir needs to have to be able to support","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=560s"},{"start_seconds":568,"text":"the throughput of a bunch of different blockchains combined uh now I mean I don't think we imagine that like n will be the the sole entry point to you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=568s"},{"start_seconds":577,"text":"to crypto by ever um but I think it will be for a large number of of users and a large number of applications and so that's easily you know tens of millions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=577s"},{"start_seconds":586,"text":"of transactions a day you know getting up to you know I think getting up to like the nine fig number before hopefully before too long uh and so you you do need a really scalable base layer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=586s"},{"start_seconds":595,"text":"in order to be able to support that uh and you actually probably even need to like one of the ways that like uh this this whole thing works there's like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=595s"},{"start_seconds":602,"text":"smart contract that is where the signature sort of originates you uh if we start getting a lot of signature requests like that might even exceed the throughput of A Single Shard and so that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=602s"},{"start_seconds":610,"text":"contract actually needs to be deployed on multiple shards um and and and like we have a couple of teams already thinking through this there's a couple of Dex teams who are thinking like hey","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=610s"},{"start_seconds":618,"text":"if we really knock it out of the park here you know we're going to have insane load and so we actually need to get ahead of this this load and like start designing uh our system to scale to this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=618s"},{"start_seconds":627,"text":"upfront um and you know because because of of the decisions that you know IL and Alex in particular and Bowen made uh you know many years ago uh near is going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=627s"},{"start_seconds":636,"text":"be able to handle that even if you know even if we succeed you know to our wildest dreams of having there be like this kind of Hub","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=636s"},{"start_seconds":643,"text":"chain interesting one of the things uh that I've heard on previous episodes of this show of people talking about their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=643s"},{"start_seconds":651,"text":"infrastructure is right like you you still have to kind of own like a big good piece of it even if you're trying to decentralize a lot of things there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=651s"},{"start_seconds":659,"text":"somebody has to be that initial owner of stuff how is that going to work on near and like you just said like there's that concern right of like uh you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=659s"},{"start_seconds":668,"text":"someone's got to manage how do we handle that throughput and how do we deploy these contracts how does that like look what how can you break that down for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=668s"},{"start_seconds":675,"text":"us yeah that is a great question um so right now the pagota team uh is the one who's responsible for like this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=675s"},{"start_seconds":683,"text":"engineering work and um you know at least while the product is in test net they will be kind of responsible for that contract that's deployed I think in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=683s"},{"start_seconds":690,"text":"the very earliest days of mainnet there will likely be some type of multisig that's going to be uh you know kind of owning that contract that I you know probably be split among some of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=690s"},{"start_seconds":698,"text":"early kind of near core developer teams um but that's actually something that we approximately been brainstorming a lot about and we'll have together with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=698s"},{"start_seconds":707,"text":"pagota NF and others we'll have some proposals coming out to the community I'd say in the next like two months um that I think paint a picture of how this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=707s"},{"start_seconds":715,"text":"could evolve uh but basically to to like give some insights into the way we're thinking of it um yeah I mean you know I think we want to look at uh you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=715s"},{"start_seconds":723,"text":"what some of the more prominent kind of Dow based type of teams like I you compound maker Dow and a in particular","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=723s"},{"start_seconds":731,"text":"where uh you do want to have some pretty distributed ownership of these like really really critical contracts I think you probably even want to get to a point","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=731s"},{"start_seconds":738,"text":"potentially where you enrin this into like make the make the choice be done by the validator set themselves uh over like this kind of Court contract like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=738s"},{"start_seconds":746,"text":"maybe it even becomes a pre-compile at some point um and that way you can and even and then and so like that's one side is like who governs the contract the other side is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=746s"},{"start_seconds":754,"text":"like who governs the operator set you know I think there's there's no question that the vision of who governs that operator set should be uh a combination","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=754s"},{"start_seconds":762,"text":"of the near validator set and the near token holders uh and so the proposal that we are going to sort of uh you know or like the thoughts at least that we're going to sort of put out there and bring","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=762s"},{"start_seconds":771,"text":"up for Community discussion is going to be leaning into that direction the fact that like it's absolutely imperative that uh this set of node operators is is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=771s"},{"start_seconds":779,"text":"is determined by the people who are using this system which will be the near token holders and and ultimately the near validator set so I think there's I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=779s"},{"start_seconds":787,"text":"think there's a future version where like if this does become you know really like right now it's you know call it an experiment it's an experiment we're really excited about there's like 15","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=787s"},{"start_seconds":795,"text":"plus teams building even more that are really excited and like starting to get into it it's like I'm I'm confident that it's going to be a thing and I think you know programable NPC is is part of where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=795s"},{"start_seconds":803,"text":"the space is moving for certain use cases um but it is still an experiment and so it's like a little premature I think to enshrine this into the core protocol today which is why it is kind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=803s"},{"start_seconds":812,"text":"of being you know operated as like an independent sort of initiative by you know independent teams and and it'll be kind of set up as like Community govern","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=812s"},{"start_seconds":819,"text":"but like not enshrined into like near itself uh but yeah if this ends up being you know becoming a core differentiator for n if it ends up like you know really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=819s"},{"start_seconds":828,"text":"I think driving a lot of the economic activity on near I think there's at least a good argument that it should be up for consideration to be enshrined into the core protocol ultimately that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=828s"},{"start_seconds":836,"text":"would be the decision of you know the near validators and the near token hle in a really big way and I think it'll probably be quite some time before that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=836s"},{"start_seconds":843,"text":"would be appropriate but uh yeah just the tldr on that whole sort of statement this needs to be Community governed uh it's it's extremely extremely sensitive","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=843s"},{"start_seconds":852,"text":"and important infrastructure um I think it offers a lot of benefit to pretty much everybody building in the near e system and gives a lot of teams a reason","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=852s"},{"start_seconds":860,"text":"to build in the near ecosystem even if they do want to serve these other communities which is a big unlock uh that being said um yeah it's uh you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=860s"},{"start_seconds":869,"text":"it's sensitive right we're talking about like managing private Keys here and and and that needs to be done in in you know as decentralized and Trust minimized of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=869s"},{"start_seconds":876,"text":"a way as possible yeah that's that's quite cool I mean one of the things I've I wish I had","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=876s"},{"start_seconds":884,"text":"the chance when I got into near was to be able to interact with those communities and liquidity that comes with like I don't know Bitcoin and ethereum right I mean this is quite a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=884s"},{"start_seconds":891,"text":"unlock um yeah I wish this was possible in in 2022 when I when I got into space but um it's happening right now so which","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=891s"},{"start_seconds":900,"text":"is cool um but love to love to hear a bit more about let's walk through um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=900s"},{"start_seconds":907,"text":"it's sort of like a flow um technical flow let's say let's say candle wants to um send a transaction using chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=907s"},{"start_seconds":916,"text":"signatures to there's a new chain which we called it I don't know Kendall chain uh and wants to sign a transaction through near and how you know everybody","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=916s"},{"start_seconds":924,"text":"launches change these days uh but um yeah if you can walk us through how that would work um that would be actually amazing and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=924s"},{"start_seconds":931,"text":"and I think the the listeners would like it as well yeah absolutely so set this stage a little bit so uh the critical components","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=931s"},{"start_seconds":940,"text":"of a chain signature it's as Joe kind of alluded to there's the smart contract that's basically listening to requests","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=940s"},{"start_seconds":947,"text":"for signatures so that takes uh three arguments around three a payload which is basically like what should be signed","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=947s"},{"start_seconds":955,"text":"so often times this will be a transaction or transaction hash um it takes in a key derivation path um and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=955s"},{"start_seconds":963,"text":"basically the the idea of like how the MPC Network silos who can sign for what is twofold so each near account","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=963s"},{"start_seconds":971,"text":"basically goes through this key derivation function that key derivation function takes in the near account as an argument it takes in um a derivation","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=971s"},{"start_seconds":978,"text":"path which means that like a user could control any number of accounts on any other chain they can like augment the public key that's being used to sign so that they can you know have 50 Bitcoin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=978s"},{"start_seconds":987,"text":"addresses or like a thousand mates or a million I mean any number and then and then finally it takes in like the the kind of Master public key of the MPC","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=987s"},{"start_seconds":995,"text":"operative Network like which will change over time that changes every time the set rotates um so with the with these three pieces of information it turns into like this kind of unique key that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=995s"},{"start_seconds":1004,"text":"only this account can sign for so walking back to like the signature request the payload the key derivation path to like determine which you know which account you're signing for and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1004s"},{"start_seconds":1012,"text":"then finally it's the key type so initially we uh the the chain signatures product will support ecds signatures","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1012s"},{"start_seconds":1019,"text":"only so that's going to be Bitcoin every single evm chain most Cosmos chains uh I think at least apos Source we are both","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1019s"},{"start_seconds":1026,"text":"in in some degree um and actually near uh as of very recently uh and so that's like wave one and then wave two uh later","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1026s"},{"start_seconds":1034,"text":"this year will be eddsa which will add support for salana Native support at least salana ton uh sub straight chains and a few others uh and snore signatures","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1034s"},{"start_seconds":1041,"text":"on bitcoin as well um so those are the three pieces of information that are passed in so that's into a smart contract and then listening to the smart","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1041s"},{"start_seconds":1049,"text":"contract is a set of the NPC operators so the NPC operators are running like their own node software basically uh and they're literally like they have a near indexer as part of their software that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1049s"},{"start_seconds":1057,"text":"each of them is running listening to requests that that pop into the specific contract so they see a signature request they do that key deration function to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1057s"},{"start_seconds":1065,"text":"figure out okay this is the key we need to sign for for this specific uh near account and then they basically work with each other to compute that final","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1065s"},{"start_seconds":1073,"text":"signature because each of these operators they have a Shard of the the sort of Master private key of this system but they they don't alone they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1073s"},{"start_seconds":1081,"text":"cannot alone basically compute a valid signature for like the end result kind of account and this is how you basically protect basically protect the uh the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1081s"},{"start_seconds":1089,"text":"users ultimately of the smart contracts from malicious behavior on the part of some number of operators or hacks or these kind of things so generally you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1089s"},{"start_seconds":1097,"text":"want that set to be you know on the larger side uh and you particularly want that set to be you know having like a pretty insane set of security guarantees","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1097s"},{"start_seconds":1105,"text":"and like we'll get to like this very long list of basically like defense and depth how you can basically like lock down this network as much as possible but more to come on that later um so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1105s"},{"start_seconds":1114,"text":"those are those are the two main components uh smart account smart contract where the the system listens to requests and then the operator Network","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1114s"},{"start_seconds":1121,"text":"that basically returns those like computes that signature and returns it back to uh like returns it actually back into that near smart contract so that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1121s"},{"start_seconds":1128,"text":"it's all on chain you have the request and the response on chain which could also be used for like certain verification methods and you know potentially even add slashing uh if that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1128s"},{"start_seconds":1136,"text":"was necessary for the system so those are kind of the building box so now let's get into like how I would request a transaction to sign on on kendle chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1136s"},{"start_seconds":1144,"text":"so as if I'm just like holding a near account I can actually just like send a transaction to this smart contract that includes the payload I want signed so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1144s"},{"start_seconds":1153,"text":"this is the transaction on kendle chain uh whatever whatever derivation path I want to use to like specify a single account probably I just use you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1153s"},{"start_seconds":1161,"text":"something like basic like one two three uh or or some kind of like hash uh but usually this will be you know done in the in the front end and then like let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1161s"},{"start_seconds":1169,"text":"say that you know Kendall chain is an ecdsa chain so I'll like specify ecdsa so I send I send this this transaction request from my own account uh and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1169s"},{"start_seconds":1178,"text":"I will receive back once the signature has been computed in you know a couple of seconds uh the the finalized kind of version of the transaction that I can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1178s"},{"start_seconds":1186,"text":"then send to kendle chain um so that's how basically I would I would handle that process like I I uh send a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1186s"},{"start_seconds":1193,"text":"transaction to this sign smart contract include the details receive back this sign payload and then and then I relay","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1193s"},{"start_seconds":1200,"text":"that to kendle chain now typically for the user they won't be aware of any of this happening for them it's going to look like okay I want to deposit eth","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1200s"},{"start_seconds":1207,"text":"into a great they'll click a couple of buttons determine how much they want to you know include get a popup to sign a transaction do that in the background","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1207s"},{"start_seconds":1216,"text":"probably from the front end uh the front end will be waiting to to receive the signature see that it was included on the near blockchain Great take it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1216s"},{"start_seconds":1224,"text":"package it into like a valid ethereum transaction and then hit some RPC provider and then you know it'll make its way into the actual ethereum uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1224s"},{"start_seconds":1231,"text":"ethereum blockchain or kendle chain or you know Bitcoin whatever whatever is being done uh and then if it's a smart contract that's doing this um you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1231s"},{"start_seconds":1239,"text":"similar type of approach well you'll have like some type of relayer system uh that'll be kind of managing managing this whole process end to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1239s"},{"start_seconds":1246,"text":"end good job getting a on on kendle train by the way um but just joking with you U but um good I mean this this this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1246s"},{"start_seconds":1256,"text":"breaks down how how it would work um on the user side just one other question is like how cheap it would this be like is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1256s"},{"start_seconds":1265,"text":"it um does it depend on the blockchain that it's interacting with or do you guys have any like estimations uh because nearest itself is pretty cheap","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1265s"},{"start_seconds":1273,"text":"but um like is is it a dependency on let's say we're signing a transaction on bitcoin um yeah how this how this would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1273s"},{"start_seconds":1281,"text":"how this mechanism would work yeah I mean you can't really get around uh the fact that if you want this transaction to be included in a on a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1281s"},{"start_seconds":1289,"text":"destination chain you're going to have to pay the gas cost of the destination chain um so Bitcoin in particular because Bitcoin well you know Bitcoin","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1289s"},{"start_seconds":1298,"text":"really has like they have a few different signature types but there's like really one action which is like transfer Bitcoin I mean you could transfer zero and you can include like in op returns some data or something","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1298s"},{"start_seconds":1306,"text":"like that and you know come up with runes or these different kind of use cases but like it's pretty simple so like you are just going to be bound by by the transaction cost I think it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1306s"},{"start_seconds":1314,"text":"actually gets really interesting on Smart contract chains because obviously there are different types of um you know different types of gas costs depending on like what additional State you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1314s"},{"start_seconds":1322,"text":"adding into the chain whether you're interacting with a smart contract all these kind of things what's really cool about chain signatures is that uh two things are true one uh you basically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1322s"},{"start_seconds":1330,"text":"bring smart contract functionality to externally owned accounts you don't have to like you don't have to actually interact with a smart contract on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1330s"},{"start_seconds":1338,"text":"ethereum in order to basically like generate uh the sort of like generate the the transaction itself and like determine what's going to be done in a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1338s"},{"start_seconds":1346,"text":"smart contract on year and year is much cheaper to use than ethereum um so we've had a few teams experimenting with like ways to actually almost act as like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1346s"},{"start_seconds":1354,"text":"side chain to the eth main net uh because like if you wanted to do a swap for instance like one user has usdc one user has e if you if you send that swap","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1354s"},{"start_seconds":1362,"text":"through unit swap the gas cost going to be much higher than if you just did like a simple transfer of like e to one address and usdc to the other because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1362s"},{"start_seconds":1371,"text":"you also have to like you know hit the amm pool do the calculations like all those kind of things um with chain signatures you could actually boil that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1371s"},{"start_seconds":1378,"text":"interaction down to just a simple transfer um and I mean I'd say on like Salon chains like this it's not going to make a material difference but on eth","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1378s"},{"start_seconds":1387,"text":"Main net on ton interestingly enough ton has like way lower gas costs for transfers than for uh like smart contract interactions for for whatever","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1387s"},{"start_seconds":1395,"text":"reason uh you actually can lower the gas costs even on the destination chain just by sort of changing the structure of of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1395s"},{"start_seconds":1403,"text":"the way you're you're completing the action um so yeah it generally it's going to be additive it's going to be like the near gas cost which fortunately","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1403s"},{"start_seconds":1411,"text":"is very low and like there's not much additional cost for the signature so it's like I'd say negligible in the context of an ethereum gas cost for salana or something like that'll be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1411s"},{"start_seconds":1419,"text":"slightly more noticeable um but depending on on you know what you're trying to do I think it it's really going to look more like the destination chain gas cost for the user than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1419s"},{"start_seconds":1427,"text":"anything on the near side and often times I think the applications of the near side will be willing to cover the near gas cost because like they'll be making more from like their fee on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1427s"},{"start_seconds":1435,"text":"whatever the interaction that the user is having then then it'll cost them on the near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1435s"},{"start_seconds":1443,"text":"side yeah I mean that really that's a really interesting approach is the economics seem to really make a difference here in how you start to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1443s"},{"start_seconds":1452,"text":"architect like what your app is doing how it's doing things and it's for me it sounds like that it gives me the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1452s"},{"start_seconds":1460,"text":"opportunity as a developer to be a little bit creative of like how am I creating this user experience where it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1460s"},{"start_seconds":1468,"text":"doesn't have to be and for lack of better a term like so like transactional all the time on web 3 right so like part","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1468s"},{"start_seconds":1476,"text":"of the poor experience that people in Ms have is that everything's a transaction back and forth constantly where it sounds like here I can be a little bit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1476s"},{"start_seconds":1484,"text":"more conscientious of at what point do I do need to finally send some kind of payload to a particular chain and to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1484s"},{"start_seconds":1492,"text":"execute what I want instead of just constantly having to do that but with that I guess comes of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1492s"},{"start_seconds":1499,"text":"for the user experience at what point am I as the end user signing something am I still constantly having to you know open","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1499s"},{"start_seconds":1507,"text":"my metamask or whatever it might be and my near wallet and constantly sign something or are we able to kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1507s"},{"start_seconds":1514,"text":"abstract some of that away as well yeah that's a very good question uh maybe just to talk about a specific use case where I think you could take","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1514s"},{"start_seconds":1522,"text":"advantage of some of these patterns so um we're very excited about runes and ordinals on bitcoin but we're not excited excited about is the uh the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1522s"},{"start_seconds":1529,"text":"current activity there because well you have to interact with Bitcoin which is slow and expensive and prone to a lot of me uh so it's I would I would frame the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1529s"},{"start_seconds":1538,"text":"runes trading experience today as borderline unusable um maybe even just unusable which is why the volumes have been like frankly disappointing despite the fact","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1538s"},{"start_seconds":1547,"text":"that the marketplaces are actually pretty cool technical achievements but they're just so limited by what Bitcoin and offer it it doesn't matter the U the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1547s"},{"start_seconds":1553,"text":"ux is is just terrible um so what I think is really cool about chain signatures you can kind of offload a lot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1553s"},{"start_seconds":1561,"text":"of the uh interactions from like Bitcoin to near while keeping the ux as close to kind of Bitcoin as possible in the sense","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1561s"},{"start_seconds":1569,"text":"that like you can actually let users still use their Bitcoin wallet even to sign the near transactions you can use meta transactions on the near side to like cover the near gas cost users never","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1569s"},{"start_seconds":1578,"text":"have to like explicitly hold near so for them they're like they're basically trading runes eventually they want to get those runes out of the marketplace","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1578s"},{"start_seconds":1585,"text":"back into their Bitcoin wallet because like maybe their Maxis whatever maybe they just they love Bitcoin right and like the whole point of Bitcoin runs is that they're on bitcoin right if if you're trading Bitcoin runs on salana","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1585s"},{"start_seconds":1593,"text":"it's like okay but that's like what just trade salana coins like you know um so I think like really this should only be done for a a set period of time so like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1593s"},{"start_seconds":1602,"text":"the the experience we kind of Envision is like step one you deposit to an exchange everyone does this with centralized exchanges anyway it's nice","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1602s"},{"start_seconds":1610,"text":"that on unisoft you don't have to deposit first but like you still have to sign the approval transaction and do those things it's it's more or less the same it's like the same friction realistically so step one is the deposit","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1610s"},{"start_seconds":1618,"text":"but then you're in near so what and you're probably even in a specific uh contract on near so when you you mention like the need to sign every single time","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1618s"},{"start_seconds":1626,"text":"well I mean one of the coolest features on near uh is that you can create like an access key that basically restricts very specifically like what you can do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1626s"},{"start_seconds":1634,"text":"as a user with that particular key they can be saved in your browser um so that you can you know not have to explicitly sign transactions but still complete","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1634s"},{"start_seconds":1642,"text":"things uh and you don't obviously you don't want to attach a ton of money to this and that's why you know for with deposit withdrawals he's like fun movement you know we we typically","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1642s"},{"start_seconds":1650,"text":"recommend developers or even require in a lot of cases that developers cannot um you know cannot cannot do this and a user does have the sign of transaction I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1650s"},{"start_seconds":1658,"text":"think we can have this same experience where like a user sends their Bitcoin to this Bitcoin address that's controlled by like this Marketplace contract on near and then with their Bitcoin account","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1658s"},{"start_seconds":1666,"text":"or not even with their Bitcoin account but they can then have an access key basically for that account just be clicking buttons they'll be trading runes they'll be you know making these interactions like they'll you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1666s"},{"start_seconds":1674,"text":"changing their balance whatever and then finally when they want to when they want to draw then they'll sign one more transaction using their Bitcoin wallet so they don't have to onboard to new","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1674s"},{"start_seconds":1682,"text":"wallet and they'll receive those runes or Bitcoin or whatever there is that they would drawing back to their back to their their their wallet and like for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1682s"},{"start_seconds":1689,"text":"them it basically felt exactly like it would if they deposited binance sign a transaction to get it into binance then just click a bunch of buttons things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1689s"},{"start_seconds":1696,"text":"happen you can believe in those in the sanctity of what's happening on the screen check it on chain so it's even better than binance and then you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1696s"},{"start_seconds":1703,"text":"sign one more transaction to withdraw um so maybe one more transaction than binance because you'll sign to withdraw instead of just trust that binance will actually process your withdraw but the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1703s"},{"start_seconds":1712,"text":"benefit of that is that like you know for sure it's going to happen um so yes the long way of answering your question that like absolutely using near here and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1712s"},{"start_seconds":1720,"text":"some of the near specific features you can in fact cut down on the amount of transactions that users will have to sign and you could repeat the same kind of pattern for anything like you could","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1720s"},{"start_seconds":1728,"text":"do this on for like ethereum assets ton whatever you can like kind of use n n is just N I think is is is probably the furthest ahead when it comes to like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1728s"},{"start_seconds":1737,"text":"abstracting things from the ux like we actually just have a lot of products as an ecosystem and and a lot of you know successful ones that enable this type of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1737s"},{"start_seconds":1745,"text":"like minimizing the direct interactions us have to have with like the messy parts of a blockchain um and teams now like any team even from other ecosystems","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1745s"},{"start_seconds":1754,"text":"or the targ other ecosystems can actually leverage that technology because of chain signatures and the fact that they can let the user get back to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1754s"},{"start_seconds":1763,"text":"uh the chain that they originated on as the end user then you know am I going to still have to experience in like the longer wait times for things to settle","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1763s"},{"start_seconds":1772,"text":"like bitcoin's obviously the longer settlement time than near how does that all kind of work out yeah that's a great question um a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1772s"},{"start_seconds":1781,"text":"lot of it will depend on the application but I'll give two examples so an example I was just talking about with runes uh that deposit step you would still have to wait for Bitcoin to settle uh in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1781s"},{"start_seconds":1790,"text":"order to credit your account on the near side uh so there's a like client fortunately which is a great trust minimized way to to be able to credit it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1790s"},{"start_seconds":1798,"text":"but it's going to have to wait for at least one block confirmation it looks like binance is using one block confirmation these days so no more than two uh so like 10 to 20 minutes so like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1798s"},{"start_seconds":1806,"text":"that step will require time no way to get around that just like if you were using a centralized exchange and then on the withdrawal step you would but then the intermediate part when you're in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1806s"},{"start_seconds":1814,"text":"system trading ruins and it'll be you know Bitcoin denominated that can be near settlement time so that's one example another example um I mean","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1814s"},{"start_seconds":1823,"text":"similar but I think like the that we're excited about so uh you can't get around that deposit step you basically you need your assets to be custodi by an account","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1823s"},{"start_seconds":1832,"text":"that's controlled by a smart contract uh and so you're going to have to get your assets from like your personal account into that that just will be kind of a fundamental limitation for I think I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1832s"},{"start_seconds":1841,"text":"think just it's it's intractable like that'll just be the case uh but uh after that step what's cool is like even if you're trading assets between different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1841s"},{"start_seconds":1848,"text":"chains so like if I'm on bitcoin you're on ethereum I deposit to my Bitcoin account that's controlled by this contract you do the same thing for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1848s"},{"start_seconds":1855,"text":"ethereum we can actually trade those assets and like that settlement will happen at near time because immediately","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1855s"},{"start_seconds":1862,"text":"after that one second block on near I can all of a sudden sign to withdraw or send your your ethereum originally your ethereum wherever I want to and you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1862s"},{"start_seconds":1871,"text":"do the same with what what was my Bitcoin um so like the settlement happens at near time after that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1871s"},{"start_seconds":1879,"text":"withdrawal step um even if like getting it into an account that only you control that isn't the smart contract will take","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1879s"},{"start_seconds":1886,"text":"a little bit longer um now we might see this combined by some of the teams building wallets where like you know you you'll get your assets from wherever","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1886s"},{"start_seconds":1894,"text":"into your wallet you'll be using it as your wallet which is like a you know already in the near context and they might be able to cut down on this even more because then you're actually kind","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1894s"},{"start_seconds":1902,"text":"of just transferring the asset control on near if you want to move it from like your Bitcoin account to one control by the smart contract uh and so that might","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1902s"},{"start_seconds":1909,"text":"be able to abstract away that kind of setlement time even more so there's a couple of like very exciting partners coming out on that wallet side that I think are going to do a good job of like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1909s"},{"start_seconds":1918,"text":"really dominating the end end flow from from like customing assets to trading them to engaging with Defi and I think that's where you're going to see some of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1918s"},{"start_seconds":1925,"text":"the really serious ux gains where like you might not need to interact with the Bitcoin blockchain very often as a user if you don't want to um and and you can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1925s"},{"start_seconds":1934,"text":"see some of those those gains but fundamentally you know you there are likely there's going to still be a lot of like deposit and withdrawal steps for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1934s"},{"start_seconds":1944,"text":"users yeah that's great um I am I have a question on the sort of like the application side so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1944s"},{"start_seconds":1952,"text":"let's say somebody listens to this and gets quite excited about chain signatures like what are you guys seeing on the proximity side they're like oh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1952s"},{"start_seconds":1960,"text":"this is something that uh you know nobody's building and and we would want someone to build on uh maybe like a couple of use cases that uh I I know you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1960s"},{"start_seconds":1969,"text":"mentioned about a bunch maybe you can start with like mentioning what you're excited about currently and then what you want people to build","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1969s"},{"start_seconds":1976,"text":"on yeah so definitely that runes example I think there's an opportunity to make runes great for the first time not even again like literally make them great so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1976s"},{"start_seconds":1984,"text":"I'd love to see teams do that uh I think Bitcoin lending there's still not a good retail friendly Bitcoin lending protocol and what I mean by that is like if you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1984s"},{"start_seconds":1993,"text":"have Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain and you want to borrow against it you're looking at like an hour minimum and like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=1993s"},{"start_seconds":2000,"text":"probably two wallets um with Bridges and all kinds of different gas costs in order to actually do that um and especially to do that in and I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2000s"},{"start_seconds":2008,"text":"that's like ridiculous um we're convinced that you know we with chain signatures a team could get it down to like two steps deposit s send your","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2008s"},{"start_seconds":2017,"text":"Bitcoin to an address and then borrow and that's it like you set your borrow details and you could end up with a stable coin and potentially have that stable coin just about anywhere maybe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2017s"},{"start_seconds":2025,"text":"even in your binance account like wherever you sort of want it um which will be and that can happen within I'm I'm confident that can happen within like under 12 minutes probably pretty","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2025s"},{"start_seconds":2034,"text":"close to 10 um which is a Bitcoin block time anyway which would be yeah like a good you know 6X speed up with like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2034s"},{"start_seconds":2041,"text":"three less steps so um I think that would be super exciting um so that's in the Bitcoin side um then um I think like probably the most interesting design","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2041s"},{"start_seconds":2050,"text":"space like nobody's really explored this because Intel now hasn't in particularly possible is this idea of composing like having an application that composes","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2050s"},{"start_seconds":2059,"text":"multiple different blockchains together so it's basically like one application one end user experience that's leveraging like either applications or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2059s"},{"start_seconds":2066,"text":"entirely different blockchains that are existing on different chains so an example I've been giving a lot of this is like if you wanted to if you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2066s"},{"start_seconds":2073,"text":"were a big fan of Athena and the fact that they've got this like uh you know tokenized basis trade kind of product that earns you like a more or less","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2073s"},{"start_seconds":2081,"text":"stable yield with like pretty high API that's like somewhat sustainable at least over the long term um and you wanted to do this in a decentralized way","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2081s"},{"start_seconds":2088,"text":"you you'd have to compose together at least two or three blockchains so you need to First you need to choose either","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2088s"},{"start_seconds":2095,"text":"e or Bitcoin uh on their native chain so like let's use Bitcoin because it's it's more fun for this example so you have Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2095s"},{"start_seconds":2103,"text":"you somehow need to like turn that Bitcoin into usdc on either hyper liquid or uh dydx so if you can swap it so that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2103s"},{"start_seconds":2112,"text":"means you'll have to bridge somewhere but like that would suck or you could borrow against it which is better uh but then you need to Su chain with the lending protocol which can't be dydx","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2112s"},{"start_seconds":2120,"text":"because they're an L1 that only supports the swap so like now you're looking at minimum two blockchains and then you like fine you you borrowed USD against","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2120s"},{"start_seconds":2128,"text":"your Bitcoin you now need to deposit it into DX and and get that 1X short position three blockchains you can't do that today you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2128s"},{"start_seconds":2136,"text":"cannot do that in a in a decentralized way uh with chain signatures though uh which will be on mainnet very very soon you would be able to do this because you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2136s"},{"start_seconds":2144,"text":"can basically create this Bitcoin deposit account from the smart contract on the near side user deposits their Bitcoin to this account um then on near","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2144s"},{"start_seconds":2152,"text":"you could actually have the lending protocol uh that'll let the user borrow against that Bitcoin and borrow at like a higher loan to value since you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2152s"},{"start_seconds":2159,"text":"it's going to be backed by the WX short position um so you like let the user borrow usdc then that same contract as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2159s"},{"start_seconds":2166,"text":"soon as that usdc is borrowed goes and like ccps or or or layer zeros or like whatever is that usdc over to DX and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2166s"},{"start_seconds":2174,"text":"buys that one extra position and that that's using a change signature right like the contract is actually creating the that order to be put into DX and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2174s"},{"start_seconds":2182,"text":"then you can tokenize that um and you can know that each of the steps will actually happen uh that if any of those steps fails you can roll back the whole","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2182s"},{"start_seconds":2189,"text":"thing get the the uscc back to the lender get the the BTC back to the the depositor all of that uh because it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2189s"},{"start_seconds":2197,"text":"actually all being controlled by a smart contract on here and each of these signatures being generated in the exact proper order for the exact proper amount","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2197s"},{"start_seconds":2204,"text":"and all this is verifiable um so that's just one like kind of overthe toop complicated example of like something that has not been possible before a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2204s"},{"start_seconds":2212,"text":"system like chain signatures that now will be possible and so that's an entirely new design space I mean there's a lot of things that we have no idea about that people are going to do and so","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2212s"},{"start_seconds":2220,"text":"I'd love to see people thinking about what types of applications could you build if you have like the entire crypto ecosystem of applications and and chains","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2220s"},{"start_seconds":2228,"text":"and things open to you yeah I want to if you don't mind I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2228s"},{"start_seconds":2237,"text":"want to kind of stay in that space a little bit because there's something that you know when I talk to a lot of different developers and products that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2237s"},{"start_seconds":2246,"text":"one of the things that starts to come up of especially now in web 3 and crypto being so new still uh is that it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2246s"},{"start_seconds":2253,"text":"sometimes hard to find like where where my product actually can fit in and be maximized and what I mean by that is you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2253s"},{"start_seconds":2261,"text":"know how do I actually take advantage of this technology has put in front of me as you in your role at proximity and as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2261s"},{"start_seconds":2268,"text":"someone who is constantly talking to people on the ground how much of this is like a educational sales pitch a little","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2268s"},{"start_seconds":2277,"text":"bit of to show them and then how much of it is like we actually just need that initial product to show the power of it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2277s"},{"start_seconds":2285,"text":"and then it'll be easier for people to start to kind of come in here and do that yeah it's a really good question um","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2285s"},{"start_seconds":2294,"text":"I would say it's it's it's both and and more efforts right it's like I think you know we for fortunately what what's cool","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2294s"},{"start_seconds":2301,"text":"about this technology is like for a lot of teams who are already building a near they kind of immediately get it I think part of it's like we've been rying teams for this for for a while uh and they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2301s"},{"start_seconds":2310,"text":"like oh I mean so like for bit to Mint base the formerly known as mbased sweat um in particular here wallet they were","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2310s"},{"start_seconds":2317,"text":"like oh this immediately opens up what our users can do and so like there was I think there was very little like they","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2317s"},{"start_seconds":2325,"text":"like once we describe what it was and what the intention was they're like great I understand it I can do this and and like now it's just further their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2325s"},{"start_seconds":2333,"text":"goal right um for some teams like a ref or a burrow I think kind of similar they're like oh cool like we can Now list assets that uh exist in all these","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2333s"},{"start_seconds":2341,"text":"other chains that users want great um for yeah for for like the this kind of net new use case like the one I just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2341s"},{"start_seconds":2349,"text":"described that's where it's a lot more of like okay we need to come up with a lot of different ideas and like generate ideas in community like you know like re","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2349s"},{"start_seconds":2357,"text":"really try to inspire people and educate people about what's possible I think like that like the the net new use case has been the much harder thing they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2357s"},{"start_seconds":2365,"text":"like okay you can do XYZ in a better or different or or new way that's a bit of an easier conversation uh but like you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2365s"},{"start_seconds":2373,"text":"know opening up the design space like that's where it's been like it's been much harder right so that's why we're kind of taking the onus upon ourselves along with like pagota and and others to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2373s"},{"start_seconds":2381,"text":"uh to really try to come up with as many ideas as possible like formulate them shape them create some diagrams of how it could work technically uh and from","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2381s"},{"start_seconds":2390,"text":"like a user experience perspective uh and then share those with teams like and you know like like to to sort of you get people there so I would say it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2390s"},{"start_seconds":2398,"text":"it really depends on the team and it depends on the use case there are some no-brainers there are some just immediate unlocks and like it make like it immediately makes sense for a team because it's like they're looking for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2398s"},{"start_seconds":2405,"text":"that solution and then there are other like you know the like more Pie in the Sky type of stuff is definitely more you know long-term educational a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2405s"},{"start_seconds":2414,"text":"conversations gonna it's you know just going to take more more time for sure yeah is that something where it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2414s"},{"start_seconds":2422,"text":"imperative that communities like within the ecosystem are trying to help fund them whether it's through like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2422s"},{"start_seconds":2429,"text":"hackathons or just in general or is it something like we just want to see it kind of naturally evolve and I guess","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2429s"},{"start_seconds":2436,"text":"this is like a fancy way of saying like like what is a Time Horizon where you really need to feel that people are understanding it and like rocking it and actually being able to start to leverage","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2436s"},{"start_seconds":2445,"text":"it like how much do you force the issue on that yeah that's a good question I mean I think the onus is on us uh us being","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2445s"},{"start_seconds":2452,"text":"like kind of everyone uh but like you know whoever whoever wants to take it upon themselves to start making things happen and like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2452s"},{"start_seconds":2461,"text":"figure out how we could use it ourselves right I think that's like step one and like demonstrating what's possible but like so I I I guess the short answer","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2461s"},{"start_seconds":2469,"text":"that question is like I think we should force the issue um just because I think like without forcing the issue it might it might not really happen right like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2469s"},{"start_seconds":2478,"text":"trying to create an ecosystem around a new design space I think requires like The Originators of it to uh be very uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2478s"},{"start_seconds":2487,"text":"um like like build kind of dog food it requires a lot of dog fooding I think to get right that's something we learned from like the whole near experience","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2487s"},{"start_seconds":2495,"text":"right is like dog fooding is absolutely imperative it's like the only way you can really get people to use your stuff um you me so this like open AI right","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2495s"},{"start_seconds":2504,"text":"it's like obviously people were excited about you know open AI before Chachi BT but like Chachi BT is what like that's what opened the design space because","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2504s"},{"start_seconds":2511,"text":"people are like oh okay so I think it's like the same story for us as well","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2511s"},{"start_seconds":2524,"text":"yeah so in terms of I guess um how should one start building on uh chain signatures and like let's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2524s"},{"start_seconds":2533,"text":"say um you know there there Builders out there that that see this podcast and want to kind of contribute to to building on chain signatures like what's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2533s"},{"start_seconds":2542,"text":"the point of contact or you know what are the docks they can see um yeah curious about it mainly so that others","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2542s"},{"start_seconds":2549,"text":"can this can kind of jump in start building yeah absolutely um I think the the best way yeah I I would check out we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2549s"},{"start_seconds":2557,"text":"actually have a link tree that has an easy it's like link tree slash chain signatures uh that has links to the docs","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2557s"},{"start_seconds":2566,"text":"to videos um talks examples code repos uh that you know can kind of help people get started I'd say that's the the best","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2566s"},{"start_seconds":2575,"text":"way to dive in like the docs give a lot of examples themselves they walk through Co the code that you need to structure they walk through kind of the flows that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2575s"},{"start_seconds":2582,"text":"of how this works in that link tree there's I I have a couple of talks with like diagrams that show like here's how you build the multi-chain decks here's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2582s"},{"start_seconds":2589,"text":"how you build the multi lending protocol here's how you build like an ordinals uh an ordinals decks um I think that's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2589s"},{"start_seconds":2596,"text":"probably the best way to get started uh as far as like figuring out what what you can do and then when you're ready to start talking to people like on the proximity side we have on our website","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2596s"},{"start_seconds":2605,"text":"proximity dodev we have a contact form uh where like once you have at least like the beginnings of an idea you're like I think this could be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2605s"},{"start_seconds":2612,"text":"really cool you can reach out to us uh through that and you know we we'll chat and you know help help you brainstorm help you figure out how to structure it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2612s"},{"start_seconds":2620,"text":"uh you know whether or not it you know like how to go to market do all those kind of things and yeah one of the things I've I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2620s"},{"start_seconds":2627,"text":"just remembered now um is like um is very under talked as like the near Community I think like um how do we how","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2627s"},{"start_seconds":2636,"text":"do you see them what what would be advice for folks to kind of support the chain signatures I think launch is coming up in the in the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2636s"},{"start_seconds":2643,"text":"next weeks or so um like what is the what are the ways that um Community can support um support the the launch in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2643s"},{"start_seconds":2653,"text":"general yeah absolutely uh if you if you are a fan of chain signatures I'd say like please help us you know promote it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2653s"},{"start_seconds":2661,"text":"talk about it talk about why you're excited uh ask questions questions are great too asking questions in public you know a lot of us sitting on Twitter and can can answer them and that's a good","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2661s"},{"start_seconds":2669,"text":"way to generate a conversation um which is great because I think that we just want to get the word out so I think that's like the easiest way just talk","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2669s"},{"start_seconds":2676,"text":"about it um there's going to be a lot of uh you know kind of longtime near ecosystem projects that'll be coming there'll be some of the first products to Market uh you know sweat is going to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2676s"},{"start_seconds":2685,"text":"be one of them beta uh going to be another diffuse which is you know by uh some of the Aurora team which is like a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2685s"},{"start_seconds":2692,"text":"great multichain Dex all stake which is by uh the lineer team um which is like reaking any asset on any chain here","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2692s"},{"start_seconds":2699,"text":"wallet you obviously one of the most exciting I think teams in in the ecosystem right now um all coming out with products so like you know support support the the great Builders iner as","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2699s"},{"start_seconds":2708,"text":"they kind of show what's possible um and you know many more coming so i' say that that's definitely the easiest thing to do is just like we really want to get the word out tell your friends uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2708s"},{"start_seconds":2716,"text":"especially if they're in other ecosystems especially if they're in Bitcoin these types of communities uh just you know trying to get the word out and then obviously building uh I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2716s"},{"start_seconds":2724,"text":"there's so much that can be built here there's a lot of and like tooling that'll be necessary um and the best way to figure out what I mean talk to us talk to people who are building on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2724s"},{"start_seconds":2732,"text":"chains just today or even just try it out you know try to build something even something simple like you know a smart contract that controls Bitcoin assets like and you'll see all the different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2732s"},{"start_seconds":2740,"text":"things that are you know required there like it's a it's a long time Horizon Project that's going to need you know quite quite a lot of infrastructure around it so uh yeah just try to try to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2740s"},{"start_seconds":2748,"text":"get involved and start building awesome well um anything else Joe from your side just saying I think you know I probably could do another two three hours just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2748s"},{"start_seconds":2756,"text":"talking about different parts of this but as an introduction I think this is really uh great and I did want to just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2756s"},{"start_seconds":2763,"text":"kind of end on maybe to eliminate some confusion because I do see this on social media a little bit too so the term gets thrown around of like chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2763s"},{"start_seconds":2772,"text":"abstraction and chain signatures and I still see people sometimes using interchangeably some people use it differently I you know the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2772s"},{"start_seconds":2781,"text":"ethereum crowd certainly uses it a little bit differently chain abstraction specifically differently so like what what is the proper terminology people","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2781s"},{"start_seconds":2788,"text":"should be using and what is what's the difference of all these different parts of it yeah I I guess I see chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2788s"},{"start_seconds":2796,"text":"abstraction as kind of like a goal right it's like the goal is to abstract the chains like either abstract the the friction of moving between chains away","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2796s"},{"start_seconds":2803,"text":"from like more crypto native folks uh abstract away the friction of like onboard into crypto for newer folks and maybe even abstract away your fact","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2803s"},{"start_seconds":2811,"text":"you're using a blackchain at all like those are goals whereas like chain signatures is like a product that can enable teams to build these kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2811s"},{"start_seconds":2818,"text":"chain to to achieve the goal of chain abstraction and minimizing these this friction and like you know creating these really high quality user","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2818s"},{"start_seconds":2825,"text":"experiences so like that's how I would differentiate them is like chain signatures is near is one of n's sort of key sort of product and features uh in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2825s"},{"start_seconds":2834,"text":"order to like fulfill the sort of vision of of enabling chain abstraction awesome well yeah this this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2834s"},{"start_seconds":2844,"text":"has been great uh I think it breaks down everything for from how chain signatures work what people can build uh so nice to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2844s"},{"start_seconds":2851,"text":"nice to have you here and and chat about pretty much everything about chain signat chain abstraction uh but yeah","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2851s"},{"start_seconds":2858,"text":"thanks thanks for thanks for coming along yeah thanks for having me guys thank you yeah super fun awesome thanks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8&t=2858s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=8M7eI4R91m8","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/8M7eI4R91m8"}