{"id":"1UpNl_7vDxM","title":"Layer 1 Stage | The Interop Future","description":"The Interop Future, presented with Jason Ma of Axelar, Alex Shevchenko of Aurora Labs, Mariano Sorgente of a16z, Alex Zaidelson of Secret Labs, Dani Osorio of MetaWeb Ventures, at NEARCON 2023\n\nCreating without limits is a credo of the NEAR ecosystem. But doing so in a multi-chain world means interoperability is critical. This session discusses the latest approaches to solving interop, and their implications for scaling, privacy, and security.\n\nJoin NEAR's community:\nWebsite: https://near.org/\nReddit:   / nearprotocol  \nDiscord: https://near.chat/\nMedium:   / nearprotocol  \nBlog: https://near.org/blog/\nTwitter:   / nearprotocol  \nGitHub: https://github.com/near  https://github.com/nearprotocol\nDev Docs: https://docs.near.org/\nCreate a wallet: https://wallet.near.org/create\nApps on NEAR: https://awesomenear.com/\nLearn to Build On NEAR: https://www.near.university/\nGrants & Funding: https://near.org/grants/\n#Blockchain #FutureisNEAR #NEAR #nearprotocol\n#nft #dao","channel_name":"NEAR Protocol","published_at":"2023-11-22T00:00:00.000Z","thumbnail_url":"https://img.youtube.com/vi/1UpNl_7vDxM/hqdefault.jpg","transcript_text":"all right how's everybody doing one more time give it up for our last panel defi is near I don't know how many times I'm going to say something is near today um just a reminder we've got the Encon app so just keep an eye out on the screen for QR codes for various rewards as the day progresses we're now going to move on to our second panel the interop future moderating this panel is Danny asorio from meta Webb Ventures give it up for her please hello hello welcome everyone to the interrup Future um I'm Danny from Metabo adventures and I'd like to introduce our wonderful panel today we have uh Jason ma from Axel Alex shevchenko from Aurora Labs Mariano sereni from a16 and Alex zon from Secret Labs thank you everyone for joining us today um I would love to kick off today by having you introduce yourself um and what you do that relates to interoperability so Alex kick us off uh my name is Alex idon I'm CEO of secret Labs uh the developer of secret network uh I joined quite recently my pastors in other blockchain projects Like Larry privacy coin called beam and and a new kind of deck so I'm relatively new to this project now in terms of uh what secret network is all about it's all about confidential Computing so it is a blockchain where everything is done on chain but the information is not visible to anyone and in terms of interop we feel that privacy confidentiality is something is a feature that is needed on every blockchain out there and there are lots of apps that can be enhanced and even made possible and privacies available so large part of our 2024 road map is about exporting our confidentiality features and for that we're using interoperability working with axillar uh we're also planning um to work with octopus to enable interoperability between us and uh the near ecosystem and and we'll be looking into more ecosystems so for me inop is key for the success of secret Network and for actually delivering the much needed confidential Computing everywhere it may be of fuse wonderful wonderful Mariano hey everyone my name is marianao serente I'm an investment partner at a16z and I focus on investing in infrastructure and def5 projects my background is as an engineer and engineer manager at Chia blockchain where I built a lot of the consensus full node and cryptography code base and I I've also Focus heavily on like clients and with regards to inop I really think the main three problems that we need to solve in the blockchain industry to take it to the next level are scalability introp and privacy and we've already kind of solved scalability to a certain extent we've invested heavily in privacy and there's a lot of new Solutions but inop is still I think really early stage and it's something we really need to focus on immediately to uh to reach the true potential of blockchain so I'm really excited about a lot of intro solutions that are being developed and especially with things like l2s um I think introp is an interesting is an interesting thing to invest in I'm Alex shenko uh I'm the CEO of Aurora Labs the main developer of the Aurora protocol and different products that are inside of the near and aor ecosystem um and uh we are working on the Forefront for the interoperability future for all of us we launched Rainbow Bridge this is the bridge fully trustless and um um permissionless bridge in between ethereum and near it has been in operation uh for more than two and a half years by now and the latest contribution into the oper interoperability from our site is Aurora Cloud this is the our stack for launching your own chains similar to the L2 stack um and the cool thing about it is that all of these networks that you are able to launch on top of the near protocol are interoperable with each other and then they are able to cross call each other hey everyone I'm Jason I lead defi at Axel Axel is a leading decentralized full stack inability solution in addition to asset transfers Axel also has something known as message passing which is ability to pass any payload and call contracts across the 53 blockchains we currently support axler has a rapidly growing ecosystem of over 100 projects building out you know chain agnostic applications ranging from you know cross-chain swaps cross-chain lending uh Asset Management platforms nft bridging and so on fantastic so there's a ton of momentum behind scaling Solutions right now in the web 3 space we think it's about to enter really like a c run phase an explosion of optionality you've seen everything ranging from l2s to rollups to l3s to advances in ZK technology um and this is exploding into a really fragmented and complex ecosystem so my question to you is how are all these chains and layers um connecting to ethereum and other layer ones going to enable and preserve interoperability well I think there's various ways to do it it depends on the system um so what we think of when we say interoperability is Bridges but there's more than just Bridges there's things like shared sequencers for example if you have multiple rollups or multiple l2s they can communicate by sharing a sequencer uh you have things like sharded systems like near where the interoperability is handled for you you have things like IBC on Cosmos that also handles interoperability and then there's Atomic swaps so swapping an asset on one chain for an asset on another chain immediately um and finally there's Bridges as well and there's many different categories of bridges which we can get into but I think a combination of all the solutions is necessary and I really think that we need abstractions on top of all these all these things and all these blockchains because a developer is not going to be able to reason about a 100 different blockchains integrate with each of them know the security properties the performance properties what they want is one API one SDK that handles everything for them and they just assume that it has the performance and the security that they need fantastic and when we talk about this when we talk about moving things in between chains whether through Bridges or shared sequencers or um all these different Alternatives um are we talking about moving assets moving messages and data what what exactly do you think are the the most important pieces that require um that need to be moved in order for interoperability to become a reality um in my view it must be generic so it must include everything starting with assets uh but also functionality so secret is is a great example so we have This Confidential Computing where you can pass say encrypted data to a contract and perform some computations on that and then get the results back without anyone seeing what went in u the computation and this is basically a functionality that requires General message passing I think what Axor is doing and I think others will are or will follow suit we need really very easy to use and kind of transparent communication layer because we cannot expect developers from one blockchain to understand the technology of all the other blockchains or you know be a developer in multiple in multiple ecosystems so those bridges need to work as best as possible and as seemless as possible to enable this you know interven future where you get your functionality from from different pieces and you just build this puzzle together for the best user experience that's a really good point and both you and Mariano have now talked about bridges and sequencers and um why don't we go ahead and start defining what a bridge is if you know Alex or Jason you want to tell us through you know talk us through that yeah I mean I think we're at still you know in the early days of inability where we just call everything a bridge and I think this is really like where we came from right and it hasn't been that long I would say even like a year ago what we started was you know we had like five maybe 10 blockchains and when people thought about inability it was purely asset transfers right where you would you know lock an asset on Source chain minap version of it but from the user's point of view you know they have moved one token to another chain and that's what we associate everything with bridging message passing is a relatively new technology that came out in the last year and most people don't truly understand what the implications of that is right message passing as I mentioned earlier is the ability to pass any payload to call contracts across These Chains a very simple way to think about it is rather than just moving an asset from one chain to another now you can pass instructions you can combine functions into one and you can do things now like oneclick cross chain swaps or cross chain staking where you're combining multiple swaps with the bridging transaction with the staking transaction all into one why is that important that's important because today like if you look at who's actually moving across chains and doing a lot of these very complex def uh application it's these power users right my parents will never be able to do that for them to participate in Defi and really Drive adoption for the next billion people we need to abstract away the complexities of that and I think message passing the ability to pass this these kind of payloads across is absolutely essential to achieving that okay and speaking about abstracting away complexities would you say that the term bridge is actually a misnomer yes I would say so I think like what I think of bridging as always just asset transfer particularly involving a wrapped assets I think as we mature as an industry we need to separate between bridging and message passing but ideally we have a better way of even just denominating it so the person can understand it I I thought about that a lot well uh okay so that that takes us to a really interesting sort of um sort of segment which is why do we need to bridge into all these things like why can't we just use a base layer and operate like what what are the things we talked about searching for privacy we talked about searching for scalability we talked about you know the the modularity um for eration that that's been happening in ecosystems so what do you guys feel are some of like the really core reasons for why we need to be using additional layers on top of our technology today well from my point of view the blockchain is all about the decentralization right so it is hard to imagine a single layer that is going to centralize all of the blockchain activity it doesn't make any sense right so from that standpoint the fact that there are many different L1 block blockchains like ethereum near Bitcoin um it actually contributes into the robustness um um of the blockchain space and because of this we need to have also many different ways how we can bridge the gap in between these Solutions because blockchains intrinsically they are built as a thing in its own it is a Sandbox usually you don't have a way to go outside of the blockchain um and you need to to have SP specialized solutions for these like oracles or the uh before mentioned Bridges and message passing um so so we need to have this in order to enable this interoperability just because from the standpoint of the ordinary users and I'm very very with with Jason here uh that the internet itself though it is a decentralized thing with lots of different servers running on different continents is viewed by us as as a monolithic structure as an ordinary users right I can pop up the Amazon website which is hosted on the US service I can I can then go to the Alibaba website that is hosted on the Chinese servers and there is no difference for me as a user it needs to be seamless so the interoperability Solutions are extremely crucial to make the decentralized world of the blockchain very convenient to use awesome awesome and actually um Mariano I I imagine you're doing a lot of research on this specific category and I was hoping you could maybe tell us a little bit about the categories and tradeoffs between the different interoperability Solutions um yes so first of all I would say within ridges there's many different categories I would classify them uh through the security properties there's L2 to L1 Bridges which rely on the security of the L1 so they're much lower risk there's Light climent Bridges like um near is uh Rainbow Bridge which also are really secure because they don't rely on a trusted party or a trusted groups of party uh trusted group of parties to verify the bridge and then there's finally the third category which is a multi Bridge or a bridge that relies on a small set of parties to to transfer assets so I would think that these different categories of bridges um are applicable to different scenarios and different types of blockchains and it would be great to get as secure as you can can if you can make an L2 that's the most secure way to bridge an asset um there's also different types of interoperability Solutions like um trade sequencers which are only applicable to certain types of systems where um where these blockchains can basically merge together and work together so these are not applicable for everything um and then there's message passing which I kind of I kind of consider that in the bridging category as well um but it really depends on which types systems you're dealing with for example IBC is only possible with Cosmos or Cosmos like chains which integrate that protocol it's not really possible with something like ethereum at this point so the type of interoperability solution is highly tied to the blockchain that you're bridging uh and there is no one side fitall unfortunately so you talked a lot about um sequencers and right now it's my understanding that basically each L1 runs its own sequencer do you think there's a future where those might be shared sequencers between between l2s it's possible and it's especially possible if the things that you're sequencing are very similar for example if you're doing evm l2s that all have the same evm structure and all follow a certain protocol that is mandated by the shared sequencer protocol then it's definitely possible to do a shared sequencer you can however do something like share a sequencer between an ethereum L2 and something like salana because those systems are completely different so there you would need a different kind of solution okay cool cool and um moving into like a spicier topic you talked about security so defi hacks right a lot of bridges involved in this um what's really happening and how can consumers sort of think about their Bridge selection uh as paired with security models I can I can take that one so you know I feel very strongly when it comes to security Bridges right it's obviously a topic that everyone always talks about but I just want to say that it is not up to the average user to be cross-chain infrastructure experts and to be able to make the right choice so they don't lose all their money because something happened out of their control kind of crazy right that I have to make that choice I don't know anything about how it's built inside like but it's it's the the choice everyone has to make dayto day totally I think as the industry grows Builders have to take more of a responsibility to make sure they're using the most secure solution and us as cross chain infrastructure Builders have to be better to be more transparent and help educate the industry on what are the risk and what are the tradeoffs so you know with that said you know from an axler standpoint we've always been really proud that we have committed ourselves to building a truly decentralized cross train infrastructure solution Axel uses proof of stake security because we're uh Cosmos chain ourselves and we built it like that because we believe delegated proof of stake has been battle tested it's been around for a long time and on our block Explorer Axor scan you can see who exactly our validators are the stake that they have and their performance status right and it's because of these properties that when Unis swap Foundation did a very thorough Crossing assessment where the technical committee actually went through the code of every solution they realized that most of the bridges out there I think they interviewed six or eight bridges only axle and Wormhole were decentralized and secure enough for cross chain development a lot of what we found with other uh industry providers was that you know when you look under the hood a lot of things isn't as described and there were all kinds of security red flags and I think like you know we it was okay because back even a year ago industry was moving so quick people just needed something that worked right whether it's a bridging or asset transfers and we you know really sacrific security for convenience for Speed and we've seen where that got us one implosion after the other well I mean I think there's different philosophies on on like how people design an architecture for a bridge and like you know what they think they're prioritizing last year there was a lot of talk about like an optimistic design um you know since then the narrative has evolved maybe like Alex maybe you want to tell us like really quickly 30 seconds or so what was your thought process behind the design and architecture of what you guys built for interoperability and bridging so we were we were we were looking for General message passing eventually so so we needed a way for an evm contract to be able to call a contract on secret and and and vice versa so uh it's not about bridging we had and we still have Bridge the classic Bridge the asset transfer Bridges to and from and it's very welldeveloped inside Cosmos but we were looking for for for this for for True interoperability by the way I think in five years when we talk about those initial Bridges they will appear as like antiques very unwieldy and very simple machines just passing assets and this is to me it's just a small part of of of of interoperability it's it's just passing value right we need to pass stuff we need to pass to call um you know contracts do to do real interoperability as it exists in Computing in other places so you know we looked at the technology that was available and we went through ER an integration process that was not very simple but you know we succeeded and it's working now and uh we're quite happy so we we are also looking at expanding to other places as I mentioned with octopus going to to near by upgrading our IBC infrastructure um preferably though uh I'd love to work with a single provider because Integrations are difficult and you know developing this trust and and build building the feature set together uh is a good way to go especially for for specific use cases uh maybe we'll have two two or three but uh like there should be one that is uh the most most trusted cuz again the Integrations are still not a very e complex complex things right investing multiple multiple times doesn't make make much sense it's much better to invest this energy into you know improving or fixing whatever is missing with the existing great Alex shenka do you want to tell us a little bit about your architecture and thought process um yeah well first of all I would like to mention to everybody that security is a pretty complex topic and it is it should be viewed as a multi-layered cake there is no such thing as just a single secure approach to do things you need to you need to put barriers for for hackers and potential frosters um not to exploit your system right and you obviously start with the proper architecture and the architecture of the Rainbow Bridge is is a pretty complex one this is not like for Average Joe even to understand it uh not talking about the Implement in like but in short version the like client of ethereum is developed as a near smart contract so this you literally have a node of ethereum on near that is working and every 12 second that is synchronized to the ethereum blockchain and because of this this node being inside of near we are able to validate transactions that are happening on ethereum but there is also near light clients operated as a smart contract on ethereum so ethereum can do absolutely the same thing and now these like llies are not very simple to build but besides that once you once you develop the architecture that seems as a proper one and it kind of addresses your security concerns now you need to assess the implementation itself there need to there need to be rigorous internal procedures for testing integration testing you know reviews and stuff like that and later on you are going to a third party security auditing company that must be also auditing this is and uh this thing is pretty expensive especially if you would like to invite really professionals to to take care of your solution but but this is not the end once you launch Your solution even if it is secur audited you need to install the proper maintenance and proper monitoring procedures around it to be able to act quickly because in case there is an active attack that is happening you most probably need to do something really really fast and I'm super proud about the Rainbow Bridge because the major attacks that were on the Rainbow Bridge they were all automatically stopped within seconds by the automated systems that are monitoring the uh the Rainbow Bridge um state right and at the moment when humans were able to jump on the War Room call and figure out what to do I mean everything was already done we just needed to analyze the locks and understand what is what actually was happening and that's it but but the final frontier final two Frontiers here are the bu Bounty programs sometimes the r bugs right this is like we are all humans AI is not yet at the stage when it is right in secure a permissionless and trustless generic Bridges code right so we would need to get there um and uh there needs to be these uh bug bounties U that are there and the Rainbow Bridge was paying now the second biggest bug Bounty and I'm extremely proud for this because uh though it was a 6 million bug Bounty for hacker uh this solution protected more than 500 million of user assets and because of it because of it being in place um uh these users are whole and in a proper way and maybe in the future there will be some insurance companies that will be able to Ure such things uh but unfortunately it is a little bit too much at at this point point so um in case you're interested in any of these topics uh they are actually presented on this conference um and for example Mitchell from immuni U is going to be here Dimitri bodoran from hacken immuni and hacken are both the B Bounty platforms they they given their talks here too so complicated things uh not for every Joe uh but but any Builder who understands that he his smart contracts are going to um be the home for large amount of assets or critical data uh they need to understand all of the implications and need to make the proper measures yeah that's a very good point which I think you know when we talk about um safety in architecture and design that naturally takes us to standards and Mariano you know you mentioned you guys are investors in layer zero there was an announcement a few weeks ago and then a reaction on crypto Twitter from the Community about cross chain standards so like uh X you know erc20 um do you want to talk a little bit about you know what was announced and what was proposed and and sort of maybe what are some of the implications of trade-offs about that sure yeah so when you bridge assets or Bridge messages between chains let's say for example you want to bridge ethereum to salana um you can wrap your token in a wrapped Bridge token so for example you can have a layer zero wrapped eth on you're can have an axar wrapped eth or a wormhole wrapped eth so you end up in a system where where there's a lot of different competing tokens that don't necessarily interoperate with each other right there's not like one eth token on salana there's different types so that is not optimal it creates problems with liquidity fragmentation creates confusion for users user experience Etc so there are some talks of creating some standards where you have a kind of meta bridge where like five or six Bridges can be combined into one meta Bridge and any of those inner Bridges can be used to create the same token on the destination chain there's a standard called X erc20 or EIP 7281 um which would do something like this and they can set rate limits so they can say for example each Bridge has a max wrapped asset of $100 million or something like that that could be really good for inoperability on the destination chain but it does create risks for example you now need someone to manage that contract to say which bridges are allow which Bridges have which amount of um limits uh so there's a risk of hacks there it's a completely new risk layer that you're adding you also have problems with uh the least secure Bridge being able to cause security issues for the rest of them if one of those five Bridges gets hacked the whole meta Bridge suffers and everyone else suffers so if you're a user that wants to wants to secure your assets with only the most secure Bridge you would be harmed with this metab bridge system so I think standards are an interesting approach that we need to look into but I'm not really convinced by them yet and there's certainly trade-offs if you Jason you had some strong thoughts about that yeah I mean I Echo what Mariano said I think it sounds great in theory I know Axel actually has recently uh passed had the support of lioa to deploy stake eth in Cosmos and it was designed as a multi- Bridge Approach where initially it launched just with Axel but we will then add Wormhole and additional Bridges later on and as you know we're looking at designing this and we're building this we realize there's all kinds of additional tradeoffs right having multiple Bridges as Mara says you then take on additional security risk of the other Bridges as well but then bridges are very complex uh infrastructure where you also have to think about like things like relaying so what happens when you send two messages and one of the relay of a bridge fails that could potentially disrupt the entire application and create a very confusing user experience right not to mention there's additional trade-offs like users then have to pay additional gas based on CU you're now sending multiple messages so I think like the design the multi bridge design is is interesting but it's still very much in its early days and comes with lots of trade-offs so I think we'll uh see how this right uh okay cool so as we start to wrap up this panel I did want to quickly touch on modularity uh and the broader Trend that we're seeing about you know ethereum as this global settlement layer um and looking at the open web has a combination of different components and pieces whether it's the application layer Identity or data or you know data availability or so on so forth so how do you see modularity playing out in this multi-chain future um I think uh well right now I think we have more blockchains than applications running on them like more l1's and l2s than the apps which is kind of crazy but I think at the end of the day the networks that will stay active are the networks that have some specialization maybe speed uh maybe they're good for a certain app or maybe they have privacy built in maybe something else and in the end uh this this will be exactly the modularity we're looking for right so an app will be running uh part of the main part of the app may be running on polygon it may store funds on ethereum for for more security it may use secret for some privacy feature it may use some something else for something else and that will all play nicely for for building you know unbeatable and Unstoppable applications and making the US experience great so I see it that way I don't think we need uh 10 versions of kind of exactly the same functionality in the end they will either merge or or or most most will die out because it doesn't doesn't make sense fantastic Unstoppable applications Mariana 30 seconds uh yeah just to add here here from my point of view modularity itself is uh is is an extremely great feature for all of us because it allows us to cooperate with each other instead of competing so every single team would be able to focus on its smaller part and bringing it to enhance all of the other team's efforts so that's that's a great thing and we need to figure out how to how to work through this awesome any last thoughts modularity cooperation you heard it here first thank you everyone thank you Denny","transcript_synced_at":"2026-11-03T06:18:26.490Z","segments":[{"start_seconds":3,"text":"all right how's everybody doing one more time give it up for our last panel defi is near I don't know how many","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=3s"},{"start_seconds":12,"text":"times I'm going to say something is near today um just a reminder we've got the Encon app so just keep an eye out on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=12s"},{"start_seconds":21,"text":"screen for QR codes for various rewards as the day progresses we're now going to move on to our second panel the interop","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=21s"},{"start_seconds":29,"text":"future moderating this panel is Danny asorio from meta Webb Ventures give it up for her","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=29s"},{"start_seconds":42,"text":"please hello hello welcome everyone to the interrup Future um I'm Danny from Metabo adventures and I'd like to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=42s"},{"start_seconds":49,"text":"introduce our wonderful panel today we have uh Jason ma from Axel Alex shevchenko from Aurora Labs Mariano","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=49s"},{"start_seconds":58,"text":"sereni from a16 and Alex zon from Secret Labs thank you everyone for joining us today um I would","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=58s"},{"start_seconds":66,"text":"love to kick off today by having you introduce yourself um and what you do","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=66s"},{"start_seconds":73,"text":"that relates to interoperability so Alex kick us off uh my name is Alex idon I'm CEO of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=73s"},{"start_seconds":81,"text":"secret Labs uh the developer of secret network uh I joined quite recently my pastors in other blockchain projects","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=81s"},{"start_seconds":89,"text":"Like Larry privacy coin called beam and and a new kind of deck so I'm relatively","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=89s"},{"start_seconds":95,"text":"new to this project now in terms of uh what secret network is all about it's all about confidential Computing so it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=95s"},{"start_seconds":105,"text":"is a blockchain where everything is done on chain but the information is not visible to anyone and in terms of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=105s"},{"start_seconds":111,"text":"interop we feel that privacy confidentiality is something is a feature that is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=111s"},{"start_seconds":117,"text":"needed on every blockchain out there and there are lots of apps that can be enhanced and even made possible and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=117s"},{"start_seconds":125,"text":"privacies available so large part of our 2024 road map is about exporting our confidentiality features and for that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=125s"},{"start_seconds":134,"text":"we're using interoperability working with axillar uh we're also planning um to work with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=134s"},{"start_seconds":142,"text":"octopus to enable interoperability between us and uh the near ecosystem and and we'll be looking into more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=142s"},{"start_seconds":150,"text":"ecosystems so for me inop is key for the success of secret Network and for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=150s"},{"start_seconds":159,"text":"actually delivering the much needed confidential Computing everywhere it may be of fuse wonderful wonderful","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=159s"},{"start_seconds":168,"text":"Mariano hey everyone my name is marianao serente I'm an investment partner at a16z and I focus on investing in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=168s"},{"start_seconds":175,"text":"infrastructure and def5 projects my background is as an engineer and engineer manager at Chia blockchain where I built a lot of the consensus","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=175s"},{"start_seconds":183,"text":"full node and cryptography code base and I I've also Focus heavily on like clients and with regards to inop I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=183s"},{"start_seconds":191,"text":"really think the main three problems that we need to solve in the blockchain industry to take it to the next level are scalability introp and privacy and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=191s"},{"start_seconds":200,"text":"we've already kind of solved scalability to a certain extent we've invested heavily in privacy and there's a lot of new Solutions but inop is still I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=200s"},{"start_seconds":208,"text":"really early stage and it's something we really need to focus on immediately to uh to reach the true potential of blockchain so I'm really excited about a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=208s"},{"start_seconds":217,"text":"lot of intro solutions that are being developed and especially with things like l2s um I think introp is an","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=217s"},{"start_seconds":224,"text":"interesting is an interesting thing to invest in I'm Alex shenko uh I'm the CEO of Aurora Labs the main developer of the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=224s"},{"start_seconds":232,"text":"Aurora protocol and different products that are inside of the near and aor ecosystem um and uh we are working on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=232s"},{"start_seconds":240,"text":"the Forefront for the interoperability future for all of us we launched Rainbow Bridge this is the bridge fully","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=240s"},{"start_seconds":249,"text":"trustless and um um permissionless bridge in between ethereum and near it has been in operation uh for more than","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=249s"},{"start_seconds":256,"text":"two and a half years by now and the latest contribution into the oper interoperability from our site is Aurora","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=256s"},{"start_seconds":263,"text":"Cloud this is the our stack for launching your own chains similar to the L2 stack um and the cool thing about it is that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=263s"},{"start_seconds":272,"text":"all of these networks that you are able to launch on top of the near protocol are interoperable with each other and then they are able to cross call each","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=272s"},{"start_seconds":280,"text":"other hey everyone I'm Jason I lead defi at Axel Axel is a leading decentralized full stack inability solution in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=280s"},{"start_seconds":288,"text":"addition to asset transfers Axel also has something known as message passing which is ability to pass any payload and call contracts across the 53 blockchains","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=288s"},{"start_seconds":297,"text":"we currently support axler has a rapidly growing ecosystem of over 100 projects building out you know chain agnostic applications ranging from you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=297s"},{"start_seconds":305,"text":"cross-chain swaps cross-chain lending uh Asset Management platforms nft bridging and so on fantastic so there's a ton of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=305s"},{"start_seconds":314,"text":"momentum behind scaling Solutions right now in the web 3 space we think it's about to enter really like a c run phase an explosion of optionality you've seen","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=314s"},{"start_seconds":323,"text":"everything ranging from l2s to rollups to l3s to advances in ZK technology um and this is exploding into a really","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=323s"},{"start_seconds":332,"text":"fragmented and complex ecosystem so my question to you is how are all these chains and layers um connecting to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=332s"},{"start_seconds":340,"text":"ethereum and other layer ones going to enable and preserve","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=340s"},{"start_seconds":347,"text":"interoperability well I think there's various ways to do it it depends on the system um so what we think of when we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=347s"},{"start_seconds":355,"text":"say interoperability is Bridges but there's more than just Bridges there's things like shared sequencers for example if you have multiple rollups or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=355s"},{"start_seconds":362,"text":"multiple l2s they can communicate by sharing a sequencer uh you have things like sharded systems like near where the interoperability is handled for you you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=362s"},{"start_seconds":370,"text":"have things like IBC on Cosmos that also handles interoperability and then there's Atomic swaps so swapping an asset on one chain for an asset on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=370s"},{"start_seconds":378,"text":"another chain immediately um and finally there's Bridges as well and there's many different categories of bridges which we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=378s"},{"start_seconds":387,"text":"can get into but I think a combination of all the solutions is necessary and I really think that we need abstractions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=387s"},{"start_seconds":395,"text":"on top of all these all these things and all these blockchains because a developer is not going to be able to reason about a 100 different blockchains","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=395s"},{"start_seconds":403,"text":"integrate with each of them know the security properties the performance properties what they want is one API one SDK that handles everything for them and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=403s"},{"start_seconds":411,"text":"they just assume that it has the performance and the security that they need fantastic and when we talk about this when we talk about moving things in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=411s"},{"start_seconds":420,"text":"between chains whether through Bridges or shared sequencers or um all these different Alternatives um are we talking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=420s"},{"start_seconds":427,"text":"about moving assets moving messages and data what what exactly do you think are the the most important pieces that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=427s"},{"start_seconds":435,"text":"require um that need to be moved in order for interoperability to become a reality um in my view it must be generic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=435s"},{"start_seconds":444,"text":"so it must include everything starting with assets uh but also functionality so secret is is a great example so we have","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=444s"},{"start_seconds":452,"text":"This Confidential Computing where you can pass say encrypted data to a contract and perform some computations on that and then get the results back","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=452s"},{"start_seconds":461,"text":"without anyone seeing what went in u the computation and this is basically a functionality that requires General","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=461s"},{"start_seconds":469,"text":"message passing I think what Axor is doing and I think others will are or will follow suit we need really very","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=469s"},{"start_seconds":475,"text":"easy to use and kind of transparent communication layer because we cannot expect developers from one blockchain to understand the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=475s"},{"start_seconds":484,"text":"technology of all the other blockchains or you know be a developer in multiple in multiple ecosystems so those bridges","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=484s"},{"start_seconds":491,"text":"need to work as best as possible and as seemless as possible to enable this you know","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=491s"},{"start_seconds":498,"text":"interven future where you get your functionality from from different pieces and you just build this puzzle together for the best user experience that's a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=498s"},{"start_seconds":506,"text":"really good point and both you and Mariano have now talked about bridges and sequencers and um why don't we go ahead and start defining what a bridge","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=506s"},{"start_seconds":514,"text":"is if you know Alex or Jason you want to tell us through you know talk us through that yeah I mean I think we're at still","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=514s"},{"start_seconds":522,"text":"you know in the early days of inability where we just call everything a bridge and I think this is really like where we came from right and it hasn't been that long I would say even like a year ago","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=522s"},{"start_seconds":531,"text":"what we started was you know we had like five maybe 10 blockchains and when people thought about inability it was purely asset transfers right where you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=531s"},{"start_seconds":539,"text":"would you know lock an asset on Source chain minap version of it but from the user's point of view you know they have moved one token to another chain and that's what we associate everything with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=539s"},{"start_seconds":548,"text":"bridging message passing is a relatively new technology that came out in the last year and most people don't truly understand what the implications of that","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=548s"},{"start_seconds":556,"text":"is right message passing as I mentioned earlier is the ability to pass any payload to call contracts across These Chains a very simple way to think about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=556s"},{"start_seconds":563,"text":"it is rather than just moving an asset from one chain to another now you can pass instructions you can combine functions into one and you can do things","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=563s"},{"start_seconds":571,"text":"now like oneclick cross chain swaps or cross chain staking where you're combining multiple swaps with the bridging transaction with the staking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=571s"},{"start_seconds":579,"text":"transaction all into one why is that important that's important because today like if you look at who's actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=579s"},{"start_seconds":587,"text":"moving across chains and doing a lot of these very complex def uh application it's these power users right my parents","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=587s"},{"start_seconds":594,"text":"will never be able to do that for them to participate in Defi and really Drive adoption for the next billion people we need to abstract away the complexities","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=594s"},{"start_seconds":602,"text":"of that and I think message passing the ability to pass this these kind of payloads across is absolutely essential to achieving that okay and speaking","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=602s"},{"start_seconds":610,"text":"about abstracting away complexities would you say that the term bridge is actually a misnomer yes I would say so I think like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=610s"},{"start_seconds":618,"text":"what I think of bridging as always just asset transfer particularly involving a wrapped assets I think as we mature as an industry we need to separate between","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=618s"},{"start_seconds":626,"text":"bridging and message passing but ideally we have a better way of even just denominating it so the person can understand","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=626s"},{"start_seconds":633,"text":"it I I thought about that a lot well uh okay so that that takes us to a really interesting sort of um sort of segment","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=633s"},{"start_seconds":641,"text":"which is why do we need to bridge into all these things like why can't we just use a base layer and operate like what","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=641s"},{"start_seconds":650,"text":"what are the things we talked about searching for privacy we talked about searching for scalability we talked about you know the the modularity um for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=650s"},{"start_seconds":659,"text":"eration that that's been happening in ecosystems so what do you guys feel are some of like the really core reasons for why we need to be using additional","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=659s"},{"start_seconds":667,"text":"layers on top of our technology today well from my point of view the blockchain is all about the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=667s"},{"start_seconds":674,"text":"decentralization right so it is hard to imagine a single layer that is going to centralize all of the blockchain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=674s"},{"start_seconds":682,"text":"activity it doesn't make any sense right so from that standpoint the fact that there are many different L1 block","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=682s"},{"start_seconds":689,"text":"blockchains like ethereum near Bitcoin um it actually contributes into the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=689s"},{"start_seconds":695,"text":"robustness um um of the blockchain space and because of this we need to have also many different ways how we can bridge","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=695s"},{"start_seconds":704,"text":"the gap in between these Solutions because blockchains intrinsically they are built as a thing in its own it is a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=704s"},{"start_seconds":711,"text":"Sandbox usually you don't have a way to go outside of the blockchain um and you need to to have SP specialized solutions","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=711s"},{"start_seconds":719,"text":"for these like oracles or the uh before mentioned Bridges and message passing um so so we need to have this in order to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=719s"},{"start_seconds":728,"text":"enable this interoperability just because from the standpoint of the ordinary users and I'm very very with","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=728s"},{"start_seconds":735,"text":"with Jason here uh that the internet itself though it is a decentralized","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=735s"},{"start_seconds":742,"text":"thing with lots of different servers running on different continents is viewed by us as as a monolithic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=742s"},{"start_seconds":750,"text":"structure as an ordinary users right I can pop up the Amazon website which is hosted on the US service I can I can","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=750s"},{"start_seconds":758,"text":"then go to the Alibaba website that is hosted on the Chinese servers and there is no difference for me as a user it","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=758s"},{"start_seconds":765,"text":"needs to be seamless so the interoperability Solutions are extremely crucial to make the decentralized world","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=765s"},{"start_seconds":772,"text":"of the blockchain very convenient to use awesome awesome and actually um Mariano I I imagine you're doing a lot of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=772s"},{"start_seconds":780,"text":"research on this specific category and I was hoping you could maybe tell us a little bit about the categories and tradeoffs between the different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=780s"},{"start_seconds":787,"text":"interoperability Solutions um yes so first of all I would say within ridges there's many different","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=787s"},{"start_seconds":795,"text":"categories I would classify them uh through the security properties there's L2 to L1 Bridges which rely on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=795s"},{"start_seconds":803,"text":"security of the L1 so they're much lower risk there's Light climent Bridges like um near is uh Rainbow Bridge which also","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=803s"},{"start_seconds":812,"text":"are really secure because they don't rely on a trusted party or a trusted groups of party uh trusted group of parties to verify the bridge and then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=812s"},{"start_seconds":821,"text":"there's finally the third category which is a multi Bridge or a bridge that relies on a small set of parties to to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=821s"},{"start_seconds":828,"text":"transfer assets so I would think that these different categories of bridges um are applicable to different scenarios and different types of blockchains and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=828s"},{"start_seconds":837,"text":"it would be great to get as secure as you can can if you can make an L2 that's the most secure way to bridge an asset um there's also different types of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=837s"},{"start_seconds":845,"text":"interoperability Solutions like um trade sequencers which are only applicable to certain types of systems where um where","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=845s"},{"start_seconds":854,"text":"these blockchains can basically merge together and work together so these are not applicable for everything um and then there's message passing which I","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=854s"},{"start_seconds":862,"text":"kind of I kind of consider that in the bridging category as well um but it really depends on which types systems you're dealing with for example IBC is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=862s"},{"start_seconds":871,"text":"only possible with Cosmos or Cosmos like chains which integrate that protocol it's not really possible with something like ethereum at this point so the type","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=871s"},{"start_seconds":880,"text":"of interoperability solution is highly tied to the blockchain that you're bridging uh and there is no one side fitall unfortunately so you talked a lot","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=880s"},{"start_seconds":888,"text":"about um sequencers and right now it's my understanding that basically each L1 runs its own sequencer do you think there's a future where those might be","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=888s"},{"start_seconds":897,"text":"shared sequencers between between l2s it's possible and it's especially possible if the things that you're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=897s"},{"start_seconds":904,"text":"sequencing are very similar for example if you're doing evm l2s that all have the same evm structure and all follow a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=904s"},{"start_seconds":912,"text":"certain protocol that is mandated by the shared sequencer protocol then it's definitely possible to do a shared sequencer you can however do something","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=912s"},{"start_seconds":919,"text":"like share a sequencer between an ethereum L2 and something like salana because those systems are completely different so there you would need a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=919s"},{"start_seconds":927,"text":"different kind of solution okay cool cool and um moving into like a spicier topic you talked about security so defi","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=927s"},{"start_seconds":934,"text":"hacks right a lot of bridges involved in this um what's really happening and how can consumers sort of think about their","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=934s"},{"start_seconds":942,"text":"Bridge selection uh as paired with security models I can I can take that one so you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=942s"},{"start_seconds":949,"text":"know I feel very strongly when it comes to security Bridges right it's obviously a topic that everyone always talks about but I just want to say that it is not up","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=949s"},{"start_seconds":958,"text":"to the average user to be cross-chain infrastructure experts and to be able to make the right choice so they don't lose all their money because something happened out of their control kind of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=958s"},{"start_seconds":966,"text":"crazy right that I have to make that choice I don't know anything about how it's built inside like but it's it's the the choice everyone has to make dayto","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=966s"},{"start_seconds":973,"text":"day totally I think as the industry grows Builders have to take more of a responsibility to make sure they're","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=973s"},{"start_seconds":980,"text":"using the most secure solution and us as cross chain infrastructure Builders have to be better to be more transparent and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=980s"},{"start_seconds":987,"text":"help educate the industry on what are the risk and what are the tradeoffs so you know with that said you know from an axler standpoint we've always been","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=987s"},{"start_seconds":995,"text":"really proud that we have committed ourselves to building a truly decentralized cross train infrastructure solution Axel uses proof of stake","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=995s"},{"start_seconds":1003,"text":"security because we're uh Cosmos chain ourselves and we built it like that because we believe delegated proof of stake has been battle tested it's been","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1003s"},{"start_seconds":1011,"text":"around for a long time and on our block Explorer Axor scan you can see who exactly our validators are the stake that they have and their performance","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1011s"},{"start_seconds":1018,"text":"status right and it's because of these properties that when Unis swap Foundation did a very thorough Crossing assessment where the technical committee","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1018s"},{"start_seconds":1026,"text":"actually went through the code of every solution they realized that most of the bridges out there I think they interviewed six or eight bridges only","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1026s"},{"start_seconds":1033,"text":"axle and Wormhole were decentralized and secure enough for cross chain development a lot of what we found with other uh industry providers was that you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1033s"},{"start_seconds":1042,"text":"know when you look under the hood a lot of things isn't as described and there were all kinds of security red flags","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1042s"},{"start_seconds":1049,"text":"and I think like you know we it was okay because back even a year ago industry was moving so quick people just needed something that worked right whether it's","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1049s"},{"start_seconds":1057,"text":"a bridging or asset transfers and we you know really sacrific security for convenience for Speed and we've seen","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1057s"},{"start_seconds":1065,"text":"where that got us one implosion after the other well I mean I think there's different philosophies on on like how people design an architecture for a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1065s"},{"start_seconds":1073,"text":"bridge and like you know what they think they're prioritizing last year there was a lot of talk about like an optimistic design um you know since then the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1073s"},{"start_seconds":1080,"text":"narrative has evolved maybe like Alex maybe you want to tell us like really quickly 30 seconds or so what was your thought process behind the design and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1080s"},{"start_seconds":1088,"text":"architecture of what you guys built for interoperability and bridging so we were we were we were looking for General message passing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1088s"},{"start_seconds":1096,"text":"eventually so so we needed a way for an evm contract to be able to call a contract on secret and and and vice","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1096s"},{"start_seconds":1105,"text":"versa so uh it's not about bridging we had and we still have Bridge the classic Bridge the asset transfer Bridges to and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1105s"},{"start_seconds":1114,"text":"from and it's very welldeveloped inside Cosmos but we were looking for for for this for for True interoperability by the way I think in five years when we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1114s"},{"start_seconds":1123,"text":"talk about those initial Bridges they will appear as like antiques very unwieldy and very simple machines just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1123s"},{"start_seconds":1131,"text":"passing assets and this is to me it's just a small part of of of of interoperability it's it's just passing value right we need to pass stuff we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1131s"},{"start_seconds":1140,"text":"need to pass to call um you know contracts do to do real interoperability as it exists in Computing in other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1140s"},{"start_seconds":1147,"text":"places so you know we looked at the technology that was available and we went through ER an integration process","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1147s"},{"start_seconds":1155,"text":"that was not very simple but you know we succeeded and it's working now and uh we're quite happy so we we are also","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1155s"},{"start_seconds":1163,"text":"looking at expanding to other places as I mentioned with octopus going to to near by upgrading our IBC","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1163s"},{"start_seconds":1171,"text":"infrastructure um preferably though uh I'd love to work with a single provider","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1171s"},{"start_seconds":1179,"text":"because Integrations are difficult and you know developing this trust and and build building the feature set together","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1179s"},{"start_seconds":1188,"text":"uh is a good way to go especially for for specific use cases uh maybe we'll have two two or three but uh like there","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1188s"},{"start_seconds":1196,"text":"should be one that is uh the most most trusted cuz again the Integrations are still not a very e complex complex","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1196s"},{"start_seconds":1203,"text":"things right investing multiple multiple times doesn't make make much sense it's much better to invest this energy into","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1203s"},{"start_seconds":1211,"text":"you know improving or fixing whatever is missing with the existing great Alex shenka do you want to tell us a little bit about your architecture and thought","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1211s"},{"start_seconds":1218,"text":"process um yeah well first of all I would like to mention to everybody that security is a pretty complex topic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1218s"},{"start_seconds":1227,"text":"and it is it should be viewed as a multi-layered cake there is no such thing as just a single secure approach","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1227s"},{"start_seconds":1235,"text":"to do things you need to you need to put barriers for for hackers and potential frosters um not to exploit your system","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1235s"},{"start_seconds":1244,"text":"right and you obviously start with the proper architecture and the architecture of the Rainbow Bridge is is a pretty complex one this is not like for Average","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1244s"},{"start_seconds":1253,"text":"Joe even to understand it uh not talking about the Implement in like but in short version the like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1253s"},{"start_seconds":1261,"text":"client of ethereum is developed as a near smart contract so this you literally have a node of ethereum on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1261s"},{"start_seconds":1268,"text":"near that is working and every 12 second that is synchronized to the ethereum blockchain and because of this this node","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1268s"},{"start_seconds":1276,"text":"being inside of near we are able to validate transactions that are happening on ethereum but there is also near light clients operated as a smart contract on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1276s"},{"start_seconds":1285,"text":"ethereum so ethereum can do absolutely the same thing and now these like llies are not very simple to build but besides that once","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1285s"},{"start_seconds":1294,"text":"you once you develop the architecture that seems as a proper one and it kind of addresses your security concerns now","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1294s"},{"start_seconds":1302,"text":"you need to assess the implementation itself there need to there need to be rigorous internal procedures for testing","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1302s"},{"start_seconds":1309,"text":"integration testing you know reviews and stuff like that and later on you are going to a third party security auditing company that must be also auditing this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1309s"},{"start_seconds":1318,"text":"is and uh this thing is pretty expensive especially if you would like to invite really professionals to to take care of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1318s"},{"start_seconds":1326,"text":"your solution but but this is not the end once you launch Your solution even if it is secur audited you need to","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1326s"},{"start_seconds":1333,"text":"install the proper maintenance and proper monitoring procedures around it to be able to act quickly because in case there is an active attack that is","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1333s"},{"start_seconds":1341,"text":"happening you most probably need to do something really really fast and I'm super proud about the Rainbow Bridge","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1341s"},{"start_seconds":1348,"text":"because the major attacks that were on the Rainbow Bridge they were all automatically stopped within seconds by","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1348s"},{"start_seconds":1356,"text":"the automated systems that are monitoring the uh the Rainbow Bridge um state right and at the moment when","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1356s"},{"start_seconds":1363,"text":"humans were able to jump on the War Room call and figure out what to do I mean everything was already done we just","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1363s"},{"start_seconds":1371,"text":"needed to analyze the locks and understand what is what actually was happening and that's it but but the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1371s"},{"start_seconds":1378,"text":"final frontier final two Frontiers here are the bu Bounty programs sometimes the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1378s"},{"start_seconds":1385,"text":"r bugs right this is like we are all humans AI is not yet at the stage when it is right in secure a permissionless","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1385s"},{"start_seconds":1393,"text":"and trustless generic Bridges code right so we would need to get there um and uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1393s"},{"start_seconds":1401,"text":"there needs to be these uh bug bounties U that are there and the Rainbow Bridge was paying now the second biggest bug","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1401s"},{"start_seconds":1409,"text":"Bounty and I'm extremely proud for this because uh though it was a 6 million bug Bounty for hacker uh this solution","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1409s"},{"start_seconds":1418,"text":"protected more than 500 million of user assets and because of it because of it being in place um uh these users are","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1418s"},{"start_seconds":1426,"text":"whole and in a proper way and maybe in the future there will be some insurance companies that will be able to Ure such","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1426s"},{"start_seconds":1433,"text":"things uh but unfortunately it is a little bit too much at at this point point so um in case you're interested in any of these topics uh they are actually","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1433s"},{"start_seconds":1443,"text":"presented on this conference um and for example Mitchell from immuni U is going to be here Dimitri bodoran from hacken","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1443s"},{"start_seconds":1452,"text":"immuni and hacken are both the B Bounty platforms they they given their talks here too so complicated things uh not","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1452s"},{"start_seconds":1461,"text":"for every Joe uh but but any Builder who understands that he his smart","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1461s"},{"start_seconds":1468,"text":"contracts are going to um be the home for large amount of assets or critical","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1468s"},{"start_seconds":1475,"text":"data uh they need to understand all of the implications and need to make the proper measures yeah that's a very good point which I think you know when we","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1475s"},{"start_seconds":1483,"text":"talk about um safety in architecture and design that naturally takes us to standards and Mariano you know you mentioned you guys are investors in","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1483s"},{"start_seconds":1491,"text":"layer zero there was an announcement a few weeks ago and then a reaction on crypto Twitter from the Community about","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1491s"},{"start_seconds":1498,"text":"cross chain standards so like uh X you know erc20 um do you want to talk a little bit about you know what was announced","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1498s"},{"start_seconds":1506,"text":"and what was proposed and and sort of maybe what are some of the implications of trade-offs about that sure yeah so when you bridge assets or Bridge","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1506s"},{"start_seconds":1514,"text":"messages between chains let's say for example you want to bridge ethereum to salana um you can wrap your token in a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1514s"},{"start_seconds":1523,"text":"wrapped Bridge token so for example you can have a layer zero wrapped eth on you're can have an axar wrapped eth or a wormhole wrapped eth so you end up in a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1523s"},{"start_seconds":1532,"text":"system where where there's a lot of different competing tokens that don't necessarily interoperate with each other right there's not like one eth token on","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1532s"},{"start_seconds":1539,"text":"salana there's different types so that is not optimal it creates problems with liquidity fragmentation creates","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1539s"},{"start_seconds":1545,"text":"confusion for users user experience Etc so there are some talks of creating some standards where you have a kind of meta","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1545s"},{"start_seconds":1553,"text":"bridge where like five or six Bridges can be combined into one meta Bridge and any of those inner Bridges can be used to create the same token on the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1553s"},{"start_seconds":1561,"text":"destination chain there's a standard called X erc20 or EIP 7281 um which would do something like","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1561s"},{"start_seconds":1569,"text":"this and they can set rate limits so they can say for example each Bridge has a max wrapped asset of $100 million or","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1569s"},{"start_seconds":1576,"text":"something like that that could be really good for inoperability on the destination chain but it does create risks for example you now need someone","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1576s"},{"start_seconds":1584,"text":"to manage that contract to say which bridges are allow which Bridges have which amount of um limits uh so there's a risk of hacks","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1584s"},{"start_seconds":1593,"text":"there it's a completely new risk layer that you're adding you also have problems with uh the least secure Bridge being able to cause security issues for","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1593s"},{"start_seconds":1600,"text":"the rest of them if one of those five Bridges gets hacked the whole meta Bridge suffers and everyone else suffers so if you're a user that wants to wants","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1600s"},{"start_seconds":1608,"text":"to secure your assets with only the most secure Bridge you would be harmed with this metab bridge system so I think standards are an interesting approach","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1608s"},{"start_seconds":1616,"text":"that we need to look into but I'm not really convinced by them yet and there's certainly trade-offs if you Jason you had some strong thoughts about that yeah","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1616s"},{"start_seconds":1625,"text":"I mean I Echo what Mariano said I think it sounds great in theory I know Axel actually has recently uh passed had the","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1625s"},{"start_seconds":1633,"text":"support of lioa to deploy stake eth in Cosmos and it was designed as a multi- Bridge Approach where initially it launched just with Axel but we will then","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1633s"},{"start_seconds":1642,"text":"add Wormhole and additional Bridges later on and as you know we're looking at designing this and we're building this we realize there's all kinds of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1642s"},{"start_seconds":1650,"text":"additional tradeoffs right having multiple Bridges as Mara says you then take on additional security risk of the other Bridges as well but then bridges","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1650s"},{"start_seconds":1659,"text":"are very complex uh infrastructure where you also have to think about like things like relaying so what happens when you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1659s"},{"start_seconds":1666,"text":"send two messages and one of the relay of a bridge fails that could potentially disrupt the entire application and create a very confusing user experience","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1666s"},{"start_seconds":1674,"text":"right not to mention there's additional trade-offs like users then have to pay additional gas based on CU you're now sending multiple messages so I think","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1674s"},{"start_seconds":1682,"text":"like the design the multi bridge design is is interesting but it's still very much in its early days and comes with lots of trade-offs so I think we'll uh","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1682s"},{"start_seconds":1691,"text":"see how this right uh okay cool so as we start to wrap up this panel I did want to quickly touch on modularity uh and the broader","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1691s"},{"start_seconds":1700,"text":"Trend that we're seeing about you know ethereum as this global settlement layer um and looking at the open web has a","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1700s"},{"start_seconds":1707,"text":"combination of different components and pieces whether it's the application layer Identity or data or you know data","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1707s"},{"start_seconds":1716,"text":"availability or so on so forth so how do you see modularity playing out in this multi-chain","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1716s"},{"start_seconds":1723,"text":"future um I think uh well right now I think we have more blockchains than applications running on them like more","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1723s"},{"start_seconds":1730,"text":"l1's and l2s than the apps which is kind of crazy but I think at the end of the day the networks that will stay active","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1730s"},{"start_seconds":1738,"text":"are the networks that have some specialization maybe speed uh maybe","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1738s"},{"start_seconds":1745,"text":"they're good for a certain app or maybe they have privacy built in maybe something else and in the end uh this","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1745s"},{"start_seconds":1753,"text":"this will be exactly the modularity we're looking for right so an app will be running uh part of the main part of the app may be running on polygon it may","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1753s"},{"start_seconds":1760,"text":"store funds on ethereum for for more security it may use secret for some privacy feature it may use some something else for something else and","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1760s"},{"start_seconds":1769,"text":"that will all play nicely for for building you know unbeatable and Unstoppable applications and making the US experience great so I see it that way","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1769s"},{"start_seconds":1778,"text":"I don't think we need uh 10 versions of kind of exactly the same functionality","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1778s"},{"start_seconds":1785,"text":"in the end they will either merge or or or most most will die out because it doesn't doesn't make sense fantastic","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1785s"},{"start_seconds":1792,"text":"Unstoppable applications Mariana 30 seconds uh yeah just to add here here from my point of view modularity itself","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1792s"},{"start_seconds":1800,"text":"is uh is is an extremely great feature for all of us because it allows us to cooperate with each other instead of","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1800s"},{"start_seconds":1807,"text":"competing so every single team would be able to focus on its smaller part and bringing it to enhance all of the other","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1807s"},{"start_seconds":1814,"text":"team's efforts so that's that's a great thing and we need to figure out how to how to work through","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1814s"},{"start_seconds":1820,"text":"this awesome any last thoughts modularity cooperation you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1820s"},{"start_seconds":1828,"text":"heard it here first thank you everyone thank you","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1828s"},{"start_seconds":1844,"text":"Denny","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM&t=1844s"}],"youtube_url":"https://youtube.com/watch?v=1UpNl_7vDxM","url":"https://near-pedia.xyz/videos/1UpNl_7vDxM"}